Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly... This is a relationship question, but I chose to discuss this with other christians.

I am in a relationship with the father of my 2 year old son. We are not married yet, and we live together. I have always known the Lord, but I have recently renewed my fellowship in church, and have come back into the light. I was not in the light when he and I came together, moved in together and had our son.

God does not recognize relationships such as this. I know that he will give me the strenghth and the knowledge to make the right choice.

We are going to get married after I graduate from school. Should we move under separate roofs until then. I am not trying at all to rationalize this, It is morally wrong, but we do love each other, we have been through some really rough times together, we are getting married, we have a son together, but he has no place to go.

I pray on this, but I would also like some words of comfort, encouragement and support from you all.

I'm not a member of any church, I am interested in all religion out of pure curiosity. But when I went to Sunday School as a child, I did learn that God forgives our sins - he sacrificed his only son to tell you that. In my opinion, your sin is very minimal compared to murder and mayhem. And you did ask for forgiveness, you did receive it. Also teaches to love one another, that sounds like you don't need to put anyone out on the street as you do have the highest intentions for the future. You can put needs of the flesh aside until the blessed day, but a child needs his father and should not be denied that. My best wishes to you all as a family!

:)

Good afternoon!

I think a couple of things need to be addressed here. First and foremost is YOUR relationship with God, followed VERY closely by your child's relationship with God, and then your lover's relationship with God.

My advice is to live under separate roofs (if at all feasible) until your marriage is complete. It is my opinion that if we are "walking in the light again," as you say, that we should not knowingly continue in sinful ways.

That being said, I would also like to add that you have a HUGE part to play in your child's present and future relationship with God. Jesus held the children in such high esteem, that he told us grown ups that we needed to be more like them. But that also came with a warning:

Mt 18:6
but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

Your actions have an effect on your child, both in the present and in the future.

Now, I must ask if your significant other is a believer as well? If so, then good, this should go at least moderately well until the marriage. If not, then you're opening yourself to a whole bunch of problems, fights, temptations, and spiritual battles. I just recently counseled a young lady in my church in just such a situation. I predicted to her a year ago what would most likely happen when her new-found faith collided with his selfish "my way or the highway" attitude. Sure enough, it did.

I must take exception to the previous poster's notion of some sins being graver than others. Sin is sin, and there are no degrees. That's something we humans made up to ease our conscience. "At least I only stole 10 bucks, it's not like I killed someone." In our worldly system, that's true. Stealing is not as bad as murder. But in the economy of God, sin is sin, and it's all abhorrent, and He cannot stand to look upon it. Hence the sending of His son, in whom we believers stand.

Tread carefully. You're not just affecting your life, you're affecting the life of your child, as well.

I completely respect your values and religon and Its good that you are wanting the best for your family but I think your being awfully hard on yourself. You obviously are in love with this person and they to you and you have a beautiful child together that you both love unconditionally; with so much love between all three of you, how can god look at your life and not recognize the pure love between you. I was raised with the same beliefs as you do, but unfortunately I found myself in the same situationwith a young child. I did go through the same feelings as you are expirencing but I came to a conclusion that I was in love with the man I lived with and I wasn't going to let any one or any religon tell me that I was a bad person because of it, not only that but I had a child to think about. There comes a time to do what you think is right based on your faith and then there is reality, YOU HAVE A CHILD TOGETHER, do you really feel it is wise to live in separate homes when thus far you have been living together, that may cause more harm then good. If your really not sure then ask god for forgiveness and do the best you can with the situation your in. You made a mistake, GOD WILL FORGIVE YOU. Please don't be so hard on yourself. :o Good Luck and best wishes!

I don't think the question of whether you should live under the same roof is pertinent at this point. You've acknowledged your past sins and that is what's most important. You are already yoked to this man because you have a child together and that will be the case regardless of whether you are married or not. You are already married to each other in spirit if not legally. Personally, my advice to you would be to get married right now and don't wait until you graduate from school. I believe that's the right thing to do in God's sight at this point.

I thank you all for your words of encouragement. As I have said before, I was not in the light when he and I came together, so naturally, neither was he. This Saturday he told me that he was going to join church as a new member. I didn't pressure him into doing this, I suggested this. And I proceeded to go to service every Sunday morning w/out him (praying that he would open his heart to this of course) More and more each day, he became intrested in the bible, what was going on in church, how it made me feel, etc. and then one day, it was literally like a lightbulb came on. We have agreed to move the wedding up. I don't feel as if putting him out on the street will solve my issue, but only create a bigger problem. My children attend service with me every Sunday, I want the best for my family and again, I thank you all.

You are more than welcome! It is still my feeling that "God" is forgiving and sees good intentions and love, especially in an intact family. Those who preach fire and brimstone, and are human and not beyond sin themselves - to me, don't share the initial intent of religion, which is to guide and teach love for one another and not fear. Bless you and your young family and all the best to you.

I am not so much of a Christian but this I say. Marriage is not just walking down the aisle & saying "I do". I think this only came into practice few centuries ago. But I think the most important thing here is respect, love & faithfulness to one another. That is the universal essence of a real MARRIAGE.

I agree dimples, marriage was 'initiated' by early 'modern society' and has nothing to do with the history of beginning of man and evolution. I don't remember reading anything about Adam and Eve's marriage. The priority issue at that time was procreation and assuring the survival of man on this planet. But in this society, people seem to need more and seek guidance through religion which is interpreted in many ways, depending on life's trials and needs. The family unit is still the rudimentary focal point and should continue to be that way.

Oh do I ever agree, women today are more driven by the "wedding", the white gown, friends, gifts, and the party.
However very nice and fun, after the party is over, then what?
Since this man and I have been together, he has changed in so many ways. This didn't happen overnight but, he gradually began to open up. If we stay together and stick together, by the grace of God, it will get better.

We are going to get married after I graduate from school. Should we move under seperate roofs until then. I am not trying at all to rationalize this, It is morally wrong, but we do love each other, we have been through some really rough times together, we are getting married, we have a son together, but he has no place to go.

I pray on this, but I would also like some words of comfort, encouragement and support from you all.

After you graduate from school? What schoo? High School? College? How old are you?

You have a child and you are living like you are married. Why, then, don't you get married and end the charade? What does school have to do with it? You are already living a married life, perhaps you should seal the deal.

Phil

I don't remember reading anything about Adam and Eve's marriage.

Genesis 2:21-25

21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh; 22 and the rib which the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. 23 Then the man said, "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." 24 Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh. 25 And the man and his wife were both naked, and were not ashamed.

I know about the rib, but no wedding ceremony or vows. I'ts all in the interpretation. My interpretation is that when you live together, you are man and wife - even without the papers or today's society.

To cleave: Main Entry: 1cleave [/url]
Pronunciation: 'klEv
Function: intransitive verb
Inflected Form(s): cleaved (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?cleave01.wav=cleave')) /'klEvd/; or clove /'klOv/; also clave [url="javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?cleave04.wav=clave')"] (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?cleave03.wav=clove')) /'klAv/; cleaved; cleav·ing
Etymology: Middle English clevien, from Old English clifian; akin to Old High German kleben to stick
: to adhere firmly and closely or loyally and unwaveringly

Don't mean to offen anyone, but it still is in the interpretation...

21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh; 22 and the rib which the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. 23 Then the man said, "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." 24 Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh. 25 And the man and his wife were both naked, and were not ashamed.

I know about the rib, but no wedding ceremony or vows. I'ts all in the interpretation. My interpretation is that when you live together, you are man and wife - even without the papers or today's society.

The "ceremony" for Adam and Eve was God's joining them together as husband and wife. It is here that God instituted marriage. Ceremonies have changed over the years and cultures, but marriage is the same. In "today's society" living together in a state of non-matrimony is accepted, by and large, by the community. It is not marriage, however. The couples doing so do not even consider themselves married. They consider themselves committed to one another, but not "married."

What is the reason for living together and not getting married? If you are truly committed to one another, why do you not make the societal and biblical commitment before men? I can see no logic, no scriptual reason, no spiritual reason, to not marry. I can see only self-righteousness, egotism, and a desire to illiminate ones guilt of sin by saying that sin is not sin if we really love each other. To take marriage lightly is to take the One who instituted lightly as well.

Phil Debenham

When a man and a woman are engaged to be married (she is 'his virgin'- she can only be 'his virgin' and not her father's virgin if she is engaged to him)
And she is not extremely young, but has needs, if he wills in his heart to fulfill those needs, they have not sinned let them marry.
Read it for yourself I cor 7:36

God does recognize relationships such as this.

Read the bible and do not listen to the words of ignorant men.

That should be some words of comfort, encouragement and support from you all.

eawoodall

when a man and a woman are engaged to be married (she is 'his virgin'- she can only be 'his virgin' and not her father's virgin if she is engaged to him)
and she is not extremely young, but has needs, if he wills in his heart to fulfill those needs, they have not sinned let them marry.
read it for yourself I cor 7:36

God does recognize relationships such as this.

read the bible and do not listen to the words of ignorant men.

that should be some words of comfort, encouragement and support from you all.

eawoodall

I do not know if your line "read the bible and do not listen to the words of ignorant men" refers to me (since I posted just before you) or not, but I would agree with the statement (although I would leave out the word "ignorant.")

The verse you quote, 1 Cor. 7:36, reads in the NASB:

But if any man thinks that he is acting unbecomingly toward his virgin daughter, if she is past her youth, and if it must be so, let him do what he wshes, he does not sin; let her marry.

In the context of this passage we find that the Apostle Paul was giving instruction as to the disposal of children in marriage. He is saying that children should seek and follow the direction of their parents. Parents should also consult their children's wishes and not dictate as they please without reason. This is the context of what Paul is saying and has very little to do with the query of this thread.

Not listening to "ignorant men" and reading the bible is very good advice, but we must be careful HOW we read the bible. To make proof texts out of passages of scripture is very dangerous indeed. Any text without the context is a proof text and often leads to error.

Be blessed,

Phil Debenham

There are so many religions and as many interpreters of their scriptures, and through my personal experience I have become warry of 'human' interpretations purely because some of those humans were greater sinners than I could have ever imagined! Take the Koran for instance. This has been interpreted to me by three individuals and each have 'read' it differently. My Jahovah Witness friends also teach me one way. Budism teaches another way. In other words, if one needs a religion for comfort and guidance, great! as long as it is for the good of passing on love, caring and comort towards one another. So, blame me for interpreting things my way, -we all have the right of choice-. But be truthful, some commit crimes, go to confession, say a few Hail Mary's and feel forgiven?? Some abuse young boys in church, but continue to 'teach the word'. What about the victims of murder and abuse - who do they turn to? I also have been married, and have a wonderful child. But "God" did not protect me from being a victim of spouse abuse and rape. When I did seek advice and comfort from the church, all I was told was to do my wifely duty?? This is the reason I will not let another human being interpret the words of "God" to me any longer. I'm more comfortable in reading and seeking the guidance myself and need no other intervention. But I do not encourage anyone else to follow my beliefs and still have a right to express them, thank goodness. We all should believe in 'live and let live' no matter what. This might not belong here, and is long-winded, but "I had to say it". Thanks for listening and the best to all.

The problem you have is in the verse, not your belief about what you think it is talking about, but what it actually said.

It is impossible for this verse to be talking about the father's daughter as 'his virgin' since it said at the end of the verse for them to marry. A father cannot marry his daughter! 'his virgin' must refer to the fiancé of the virgin, because the fiancé is the only one who can marry the virgin, that is why they are engaged to begin with, hello? You are listening to ignorant men, because you believe a father can marry his own daughter, silly person.
Arranged marriages were common, since women were only considered property, before christianity showed that they should be treated equally because they have equal worth with God. You need to read the bible not listen to what others tell you it said! Because the ignorant are trying to lead you astray, and have obviously done so, since you think a father should marry his daughter. Read the bible and the context is obvious.


I do not know if your line "read the bible and do not listen to the words of ignorant men" refers to me (since I posted just before you) or not, but I would agree with the statement (although I would leave out the word "ignorant.")

The verse you quote, 1 Cor. 7:36, reads in the NASB:

But if any man thinks that he is acting unbecomingly toward his virgin daughter, if she is past her youth, and if it must be so, let him do what he wshes, he does not sin; let her marry.

In the context of this passage we find that the Apostle Paul was giving instruction as to the disposal of children in marriage. He is saying that children should seek and follow the direction of their parents. Parents should also consult their childrens wishes and not dictate as they please without reason. This is the context of what Paul is saying and has very little to do with the query of this thread.

Not listening to "ignorant men" and reading the bible is very good advice, but we must be careful HOW we read the bible. To make proof texts out of passages of scripture is very dangerous indeed. Any text without the context is a proof text and often leads to error.

Be blessed,

Phil Debenham

OK, I just picked up on something else... Here I go again! Even after Christianity, women were NOT always considered equal, and in the teachings of Martin Luther, and a Christian Teaching in former Yugoslavia taught that women were inferior and that they were property and they had to walk behind the husband to show respect. Even in the early american lifestyles, while witch-hunting, women had absolutely no rights. Like I said before, and always will, I'm no expert any anything, but I am a curious type and still like to learn more in spite of my age and illness. I am open to any opinions others have, but am certainly not shy in expressing mine either. So again, please do not feel offended, but don't wear blinders either. All the best, no matter what your beliefs, Chery.

any single sin is counted as guilty of death before God.

that the catholic church has popes who bows down to whatever religion comes before them, instead of teaching their people the word of God, shows that the catholics at the highest levels are not christian. See:
http://www.cuttingedge.org/articles/rome.html
many are trying to keep you away from a true relationship with God. They are blind leading the blind. Jehovah's witnesses believe that God already returned to earth several times, since they keep predicting it (since the 1800s), even though Jesus said no man knows the day or the hour. So they refuse to listen to Jesus, how much could they actually be witnessing about someone they refuse to believe? The koran was made from the words of an angel, just like the book the mormons follow, paul said if any angel or even we ourselves come to you and preach any other gospel let them be cursed. Revelation states that any add words to this book shall have the tribulations of this book added to them. Writing additional books and claiming they are of God sounds like adding words to me. So neither of them follow the word of God.
Buddism believes that nothing really exists, and that people can make themselves perfect, and that becoming perfect is good enough, but God has said in the bible that having committed any sin your entire life is enough to not be perfect, because it is your entire life that is perfect or not. Only God can save because only God is infinite, and able to do the infinite. God planned all this before he made it. The 'whosoever will' can be saved, because they want to be saved, and are willing to agree with God (repent) that they need to be saved. Logically only those who think they need salvation will ask for it. So catholic doctrine proves itself wrong- the pope many years ago declared himself perfect in healing, then he went for a walk wanting to use his new power, a person was on the ground, the pope command him to rise up and walk, the person tried to get up, and fell back down (because he was not physically healed), so the pope continued his walk. From this we learn the catholics deceive themselves willingly. They practice witchcraft, they claim in the mass they are making God come down and become blood and body again so they can eat and drink the "mass" (cana baal ism - priest of baal - condemned in the bible). They claim they are doing witchcraft for good (white witchcraft it is called), but the bible states rebellion is as witchcraft so they are in rebellion against God, so they are not following God. Logically only those who refuse to submit can be raped, if you are willing you cannot logically be raped, it is called consent. You stayed in the marriage after you said no, and your husband forced himself on you? God will repay, vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord. Do not thank some 'goodness' that you believe might exist someplace, Thank God. It is the job of man to thank God. The bible said there is no private interpretation of the word of God, that is a reason to not let other interprete it for you, not that you don't want them to, but that God said not to! To obey is better than sacrifice. God does not want any to suffer, but all be delivered. Do not stay in an abusive relationship, if only because others care about you if you do not consider yourself worth saving, if there are children you need for their safety to leave! Abusers of wives also often abuse the children! And rape is a form of abuse!
I do not believe in live and let live, if the safety of the children is in question because you don't want to leave an abusive husband, get the children out of the household before the husband gets bored with raping you, and looks around for someone else to rape. Jesus said if a man offends you rebuke him.



There are so many religions and as many interpreters of their scriptures, and through my personal experience I have become warry of 'human' interpretations purely because some of those humans were greater sinners than I could have ever imagined! Take the Koran for instance. This has been interpreted to me by three individuals and each have 'read' it differently. My Jahovah Witness friends also teach me one way. Budism teaches another way. In other words, if one needs a religion for comfort and guidance, great!, as long as it is for the good of passing on love, caring and comort towards one another. So, blame me for interpreting things my way, -we all have the right of choice-. But be truthful, some commit crimes, go to confession, say a few Hail Mary's and feel forgiven???? Some abuse young boys in church, but continue to 'teach the word'. What about the victims of murder and abuse - who do they turn to? I also have been married, and have a wonderful child. But "God" did not protect me from being a victim of spouse abuse and rape. When I did seek advice and comfort from the church, all I was told was to do my wifely duty???? This is the reason I will not let another human being interpret the words of "God" to me any longer. I'm more comfortable in reading and seeking the guidance myself and need no other intervention. But I do not encourage anyone else to follow my beliefs and still have a right to express them, thank goodness. We all should believe in 'live and let live' no matter what. This might not belong here, and is long-winded, but "I had to say it". Thanks for listening and the best to all.

Once again you quote men, not God. Men do not matter! Let God be true and every man a liar the bible said.


OK, I just picked up on something else... Here I go again! Even after Christianity, women were NOT always considered equal, and in the teachings of Martin Luther, and a Christian Teaching in former Yugoslavia taught that women were inferior and that they were property and they had to walk behind the husband to show respect. Even in the early american lifestyles, while witch-hunting, women had absolutely no rights. Like I said before, and always will, I'm no expert any anything, but I am a curious type and still like to learn more inspite of my age and illness. I am open to any opinions others have, but am certainly not shy in expressing mine either. So again, please do not feel offended, but don't wear blinders either. All the best, no matter what your beliefs, Chery.

the problem you have is in the verse, not your belief about what you think it is talking about, but what it actually said.

it is impossible for this verse to be talking about the father's daughter as 'his virgin' since it said at the end of the verse for them to marry. a father cannot marry his daughter! 'his virgin' must refer to the fiance of the virgin, because the fiance is the only one who can marry the virgin, that is why they are engaged to begin with, hello? you are listening to ignorant men, because you believe a father can marry his own daughter, silly person.
arranged marriages were common, since women were only considered property, before christianity showed that they should be treated equally because they have equal worth with God. You need to read the bible not listen to what others tell you it said! because the ignorant are trying to lead you astray, and have obviously done so, since you think a father should marry his daughter. read the bible and the context is obvious.

Verse 38, continuing the context, reads: So then both he who gives his own virgin in marriage does well, and he who does not give her in marriage will do better.

Fiancés TAKE their betrothed in marriage. Fathers GIVE their virgin daughters in marriage. That, sir, is the context. No where does this passage suggest that the man Paul is speaking of marries the virgin. In verse 37 he is told that it is all right to "let her marry", not "marry her." In verse 38 he is told he can "give her in marriage", not "marry her." This is what the passage says, not what men have taught me. You need to practice what you preach, my friend.

Phil Debenham (Silly man)

Im coming to Chery's defense. Im sorry and Im sure you mean well but you really have no right in telling any person that if they don't believe like you do then they will be led astray. I myself have heard many interpertations of the bible and how can you say your's is right? What I don't understand is how can anyone say that THIS is what the bible means and THIS is what god says when the bible itself was written by human beings "interpertting" what god says. Christian historians are still trying to interprut the bible and god's message thousands of years later? If everything is set is stone than why are they bothering? Everything is based on faith and belief. You believe your way and anyone who doesn't is damned? How is that love towards your fellow man? I know what scriptures say A good portion of mylife I was brought up as a "born again" christian. And I followed everything that was entailed right down to the fire and brimstone mentallity. Did that belief have any outcome on my life at all? NOPE! And I realized I could not live my life trying to be this perfect epitamy of godliness. I do ask god for forgiveness wwhen I have sinned. But I know he loves me and hears me when I pray. I don't believe that gives me the right to go out and sin, but I do try to always do the right thing. But we are not perfect that is what makes us human beings and sinners.Iv come to believe that god is a loving god and not something to fear. As I read on one of these posts that no matter what "sin is sin and no sin is worse than another". I don't believe that, you mean to tell me that if two people die and one was a sadistic serial killer and the other person was normal kind hard working person never committed a crime except for an occasional lie throughout their life then god would put them both in hell? I could never understand that growing up. I was tauht god was love and god loves you this and that and then to hear: well if you lie and then died that second after words your going to hell along with this murderer. That is seriously screwed up and to be honest with you I wouldn't want to believe in a religon that believed that god would do that to his people. You have your belief others have theirs, whether it be judiasm, muslim,buddhism we as HUMAN beings have no right to tell what we all should believe or not believe. Especially since we are all sinners and are all imperfect. If you want people to respect your belief respect theirs and stop trying to make people feel guilty.

OK, I just picked up on something else... Here I go again! Even after Christianity, women were NOT always considered equal, and in the teachings of Martin Luther, and a Christian Teaching in former Yugoslavia taught that women were inferior and that they were property and they had to walk behind the husband to show respect. Even in the early american lifestyles, while witch-hunting, women had absolutely no rights.

Chery,

There are many, throughout the history of the Christian Faith, that have taught the inferiority of women as compared to men. Martin Luther, a great believer and arguably the "father" of the Reformation, was still human and made many mistakes. However, I do not believe that the inferiority of women as compared to men is a biblical viewpoint, or a godly one for that matter. The culture we live in (in this country) is not the culture Paul was addressing when he spoke of a father giving his daughters hand in marriage. By explaining what the verse meant I was not making a statement concerning the rights of women. I was merely pointing out what the passage was talking about. I believe, Chery, that you are equal with, and just as important as, me. I do not believe that God looks upon me with any more favor than He looks upon you. I do not believe that Jesus died for me more than He died for you.

Blessings,

Phil

Im coming to Chery's defense. Im sorry and Im sure you mean well but you really have no right in telling any person that if they don't believe like you do then they will be led astray.

Hanabelle,

I shall defend Chery as well. I do not know where I have said that if you, she, or anyone else has to believe like me or they will be led astray. I am a Christian. I believe the bible is the Word of God. That is, therefore, where my answers will come from. If you disbelieve the bible you will reject my message. That is of course your prerogative, and, while I would hope that you and everyone else come to accept what the bible teaches, I respect your right to reject it. I may disagree with you, but I do not disrespect you.



I myself have heard many interpertations of the bible and how can you say your's is right? what I don't understand is how can anyone say that THIS is what the bible means and THIS is what god says when the bible itself was written by human beings "interpertting" what god says. Christian historians are still trying to interprut the bible and god's message thousands of years later? If everything is set is stone than why are they bothering? Everything is based on faith and belief. You believe your way and anyone who doesnt is damned?

Concerning interpretation, Hanabelle, we clearly disagree. There can be only one interpretation of any written or spoken word. All other understandings are mis-interpretations. The bible was written in Koine Greek. That is a language that was only spoken for about 100 years. Koine means "common." It was the language of the common person and easily urderstood. Personally, I believe that is why God chose that language for the New Testament. Interpretation does not involve what a person thinks a passage means. It involves what the passage originally meant by its author. That is not often hard to understand, even in the bible. Once you see what Paul, Luke, John, etc. was saying in a given writing you are free to accept it or reject it, but you are not free to "interpret" it for your own liking.

Christian Historians have nothing to do with biblical interpretation. They study the History of Christianity. Interpretation is the job of the reader. It is your job, if you read the bible. By and large that job is not too difficult. The bible speaks clearly for the most part (some areas of prophesy are difficult to understand), and can be easily understood. One of the most important rules of interpretation, whether of the bible or some other work, is to interpret in context. That has been my only dispute in this thread. If someone comes along and quotes a verse to prove his/her point, and the verse is quote out of the contextual content of the passage, I dispute it (even if the point is valid). Proof texts are dangerous and dishonest.

I have never said that anyone who does not believe as I do is damned, Hannable. It is the bible that says who is and who is not saved or damned. You can accept it or reject it, but you can't blame it on me. This thread began with the question of living together "in sin" (her words), or living apart. I suggested that if the couple already has a 2 year old son and they are living as if married, perhaps they should be married and end the charade. I never said they were damned for living together. The thing that saves, according to the scripture, is belief in the finished work of Christ. That is the only thing that saves. Rejection of that is what damns. That is what the bible teaches, not something I made up.

Finally, Hannabel being brought
Up in a "born again" Christian home does not make one a Christian any more than living in a barn make you a horse. There is only one kind of Christian; a person who has put his/her faith in Jesus Christ and given Him Lordship of his/her life. I respect your right to believe anything you want, Hannabel, but I can only answer question from my own belief system, which is decidedly Christian. If you reject the bible and the God of the bible you will want to avoid my answers. If you believe the bible and the God of the bible I just may have something worth sharing.

With great respect for you and Chery,

Phil Debenham

Thank you, for a while there I thought someone was going to 'stone' me. But I also have a good sense of humor and always think kindly of people first until they prove me wrong in my thinking so. Have a good one...




Chery,

There are many, throughout the history of the Christian Faith, that have taught the inferiority of women as compared to men. Martin Luther, a great believer and arguably the "father" of the Reformation, was still human and made many mistakes. However, I do not believe that the inferiority of women as compared to men is a biblical viewpoint, or a godly one for that matter. The culture we live in (in this country) is not the culture Paul was addressing when he spoke of a father giving his daughters hand in marriage. By explaining what the verse meant I was not making a statement concerning the rights of women. I was merely pointing out what the passage was talking about. I believe, Chery, that you are equal with, and just as important as, me. I do not believe that God looks upon me with any more favor than He looks upon you. I do not believe that Jesus died for me more than He died for you.

Blessings,

Phil

To Phildebeham: I want to first apologize to you if I seemed harsh in that last post I made. I may have had misunderstood you When I wrote that last response. But I wanted to say that I never said I rejected the bible and what it says. I may have a hard time understanding it but I never said I rejected it. Ever since I was little I have only heard it explained to me in one way and as I became older it seemed like god was something to fear. I know in my last post I said that I had heard the bible interpurted in a few different ways most of those were just other ideas what god was saying or what he meant by what he said. Not that I believe those ideas, but it was something to think about. As far as when I said I was raised as a born again christian, yes I still consider myself a christian, I love god with all my heart. I don't reject god or the bible in any way, if anything I'm trying to find out answers. Bottom line, the things that I was told in church scared the wits out of me, and all that I ever known was to be made to feel that If I didn't do what god said,I was going to hell(my fathers words). I hope you can understand where I'm coming from. Im sorry if you thought I meant you specifically that you said that I was damned. I didn't mean for you to take it that way, Its just that Its something I heard my whole life. I have read parts of the bible and I enjoy it, it always gives me peace in times of trouble and sadness. Actually it's the only thing I read for a month when my grandfather passed away. And it greatly comforted me. I love god with all my heart. I hope this sheds some light on where Im coming from. And Im very sorry if I offended you.--hanabelle

To Phildebeham: I want to first apologize to you if I seemed harsh in that last post I made. I may have had misunderstood you When I wrote that last response. But I wanted to say that I never said I rejected the bible and what it says. I may have a hard time understanding it but I never said I rejected it. Ever since I was little I have only heard it explained to me in one way and as I became older it seemed like god was something to fear. I know in my last post I said that I had heard the bible interpurted in a few different ways most of those were just other ideas what god was saying or what he meant by what he said. Not that I beleive those ideas, but it was something to think about. As far as when I said I was raised as a born again christian, yes I still consider myself a christian, I love god with all my heart. I don't reject god or the bible in any way, if anything im trying to find out answers. Bottom line, the things that I was told in church scared the wits out of me, and all that I ever known was to be made to feel that If I didn't do what god said,I was going to hell(my fathers words). I hope you can understand where im coming from. Im sorry if you thought I meant you specifically that you said that I was damned. I didn't mean for you to take it that way, Its just that Its something I heard my whole life. I have read parts of the bible and I enjoy it, it always gives me peace in times of trouble and sadness. Actually its the only thing I read for a month when my grandfather passed away. And it greatly comforted me. I love god with all my heart. I hope this sheds some light on where Im coming from. And Im very sorry if I offended you.--hanabelle

Hanabelle,

I am not offended. I am glad to hear that you believe the bible and saddended to hear of your negative experiences in church. There are many who have been injured by abusive churches, and if you are one of these, I understand completely. If you read something in the bible that you have trouble understanding, I would be happy to discuss it with you either in this forum or privately. Should you so choose, my email address is [email protected].

At your service,

Phil

Get married,

"I am going to wait till>>>>>"

You did not wait to move in together, did not wait to have a child together.

So basically waiting is showing some doubt of commitment?

You either wish to be married ( if so this weekend would work great) or you don't want to marry this person.

If you don't want to marry him you don't have any business living with him.

Please I have heard it all, not enough money, want big wedding, and so on. Well the licence and blood test if needed normally cost less than 50 bucks, you can always have a large wedding when you get the money for a blessing latter.

First and foremost, let me defend myself. You don't know me, my living arrangements or my situation. We are currently going through some financial, and legal issues that I do not want to bring into our marriage. But since you have never in your life met me, you wouldn't know that. He not only has children from a previous relaitonship, but so do I there are child support and custodial issues that need to be hashed out before we are married. Again, since you have never met me, you wouldn't know that either. If you had of read the very first post in this thread you would know that I am only seeking the advice of my christian sisters and brother's but you come right in here passing judgement on me and that is not what christians do. To me, you need to find another thread to post to or get all of the fact before you pass judgement on another human being, or submit a post. As I said in the first post that you obviously didn't comprehend. I was not living as a christian when we met, I was not living as a christian when I had my son, when I realized that I needed to be married to this man or move on with my life as christian, I turned to other christians for advice. To let all of the other's who were behind me and gave me GOOD advice, you will all be happy to know that we will exchange marital vows on Christmas Eve.

Being told what is proper moral values is not judgement it is merely telling them standards that God expects. We all fall short in many areas.
But it is clear that you are making excuses, You merely want someone to pat you on the back and tell you it is all OK, Tell you keep doing things they way you are and it is all going to get better.

I will tellyou to get a life, look at reality and then follow God's word. When we try, at least to the best of our ability, to follow God's word, we will find that life has a way of clearing up so many of the issues.

You want an easy fit, and I am sure that there will be those that will give it to you, Not God's word mind you, but a twisted version that will make everyone feel all rosy and happy.

Not my style, truth and directness to the real issues and problems.
Most people don't like hearing bold truth at first, but normally they really know it is what should be done.

Hey, letmeno, I will be thinking of you and your family on Christmas - Good Luck in getting all the other issues to fit into place, dear, and keep us posted.

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_9_16.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZN) P.S. We do this on our free time and really appreciate feedback if our answers/advice helped or not, please: click the Rate This Post link, click on Approve or Disapprove, and give a comment. Thanks!

Thank you chery. I spoke with my pastor on this one, and she is going to start marriage counseling next week.

It Sounds As Though You Have Become Co-dependent On Each Other For Your Basic Existence. Rent, Utilities, Etc. If This Guy Really Loves You Then It Would Seem That He Could Step On The Gas As Far As Getting Married To You. You Do Understand As Long As You Are Not Married There Are No Ties To Break, There Is No Covenant Between You That Binds You Together. My Advice, If He'll Marry You When School Is Over, Then He Can Marry You Now. Never Do Today What You Can Put Off Until Tomorrow Is An Excuse To Back Out At Any Time And A Receipe For Failure And Dissappoint-ment. This Could Be The Real Test Of Your Love Between Each Other, But Be Prepared Should You Fall Flat On Your Face. The One Who Loves You Closer Than A Brother Is Jesus Christ.

It Sounds As Though You Have Become Co-dependent On Each Other For Your Basic Existence. Rent, Utilities, Etc. If This Guy Really Loves You Then It Would Seem That He Could Step On The Gas As Far As Getting Married To You. You Do Understand As Long As You Are Not Married There Are No Ties To Break, There Is No Covenant Between You That Binds You Together. My Advice, If He'll Marry You When School Is Over, Then He Can Marry You Now. Never Do Today What You Can Put Off Until Tomorrow Is An Excuse To Back Out At Any Time And A Receipe For Failure And Dissappoint-ment. This Could Be The Real Test Of Your Love Between Each Other, But Be Prepared Should You Fall Flat On Your Face. The One Who Loves You Closer Than A Brother Is Jesus Christ. Sorry, but I don't think you read the whole thread from the beginning, they have a child and also other commitments - so they are taking the right steps, one at a time to get to the perfect family unity and harmony, and not making excuses.

Hello Again,

I do not think everybody will agree with my answer but here is what I believe. Being pure before marriage. Waiting for marriage. Starting a life together is all good. As far as marriage, a piece of paper an agreement on paper. I believe that if you truly love that one person, you have promised to be with each other and you already live together and you have a child together. You in the eyes of God are already Married. It is a spiritual commitement, you join together with somebody that is your other half. You created a baby through your love together and that is part of marriage. Staying faithful, staying true and long term commitement. That is what God asks of a marriage. It is great that you are getting married. To be honest, my in laws did not want us to move in, and so forth before marriage but my wife and I did. We thought of waiting but we did not. The only thing we did was the night before our wedding we were in separate places and we did not see each other until she walked down the aisle. So enjoy your wedding and do not worry so much. God is faithful and he has blessed you with a beautiful baby and that is what is important. Hope this helps and may God bless you always.

Dear one, please do what you know to be right in your heart and mind about your lover and your son. I did not bother to read any further posts because you need some real back up here.
Please do not accuse yourself of living in sin. It is called love. And in a lifetime not everyone is so fortunate to find a shoulder to lean on, a common ground, to share to laugh to hold . Nope not everone is so fortunate. And we know loneliness is the killer!
Does everyone who is passing judgment against you ( including yourself) realize how the Lord God and Saviour was born into this world. Did anyone dare to think differently. Yes it was a miracle. But who knew unless you were a beleiver in devine spirit. The fact holds true, they were not married at the time of conception. Does that make it less so? I think not.
Jesus preaches love, love your neighbor and love God. He will decide if it is inappropriate or not. True love does not need a piece of paper to the government to prove it is not sin.
True love does not need a ring(wedding) to make it so. True love needs a ritual of being honest and loving and caring devotion to one an other. Nothing more.
So you take in your lover and make it good for him. God is not a condeming God. Whenever 2 people are brought together in love, the Angel of God comes down above you and blesses and receives that union. It is a GOOD thing.
Angels and God know when it is done out of lust or love. The piece of paper is a means to an end. We all know plenty of(married) people that have all waited and done the right thing and cheat mercilessly on the marriage. I would call that a sin. To pretend to God and your intended that this is the real thing, I mean I would be more afraid to pull that one off than to live with the one I love. You go into that ceremony (ritual) making some serious promises before God. And to lie to him about your intentions to marriage, I would not be able to face him if this were so.
All the 10 commandments boil down to 2 things:
Love God &
Love thy neighbor
This is true spiritualism, religion, whatever you want to call it. That is what it boils down to.
If you are obeying these 2 laws, you don't even need the rest of the commandment, you can't go wrong.
I think people become judgmental about this because they are thinking of what goes on behind closed doors. Which 1st off is none of their business and get your mind out of the gutter because believe it or not! All relationships are not, Yes I said Are Not based on sex!!
We all know of stories in the news of people coming together in love, and at death find out they were of a different sex when the autopsy was done. Everone claims how can you not know this? There are all kinds of relationships. Do not get caught in this judgemental trap. Peace ranieri

dear one, please do what you know to be right in your heart and mind about your lover and your son. I did not bother to read any further posts because you need some real back up here.
Please do not accuse yourself of living in sin. It is called love. And in a lifetime not everyone is so fortunate to find a shoulder to lean on, a common ground, to share to laugh to hold . Nope not everone is so fortunate. And we know loneliness is the killer!
Does everyone who is passing judgment against you ( including yourself) realize how the Lord God and Saviour was born into this world. Did anyone dare to think differently. Yes it was a miracle. But who knew unless you were a beleiver in devine spirit. The fact holds true, they were not married at the time of conception. Does that make it less so? I think not.
Jesus preaches love, love your neighbor and love God. He will decide if it is inappropriate or not. True love does not need a piece of paper to the government to prove it is not sin.
True love does not need a ring(wedding) to make it so. True love needs a ritual of being honest and loving and caring devotion to one an other. Nothing more.
So you take in your lover and make it good for him. God is not a condeming God. Whenever 2 people are brought together in love, the Angel of God comes down above you and blesses and receives that union. It is a GOOD thing.
Angels and God know when it is done out of lust or love. The piece of paper is a means to an end. We all know plenty of(married) people that have all waited and done the right thing and cheat mercilessly on the marriage. I would call that a sin. To pretend to God and your intended that this is the real thing, I mean I would be more afraid to pull that one off than to live with the one I love. You go into that ceremony (ritual) making some serious promises before God. And to lie to him about your intentions to marriage, I would not be able to face him if this were so.
All the 10 commandments boil down to 2 things:
Love God &
Love thy neighbor
This is true spiritualism, religion, whatever you want to call it. That is what it boils down to.
If you are obeying these 2 laws, you dont even need the rest of the commandment, you can't go wrong.
I think people become judgmental about this because they are thinking of what goes on behind closed doors. Which 1st off is none of their business and get your mind out of the gutter because believe it or not! All relationships are not, Yes I said Are Not based on sex!!!!
We all know of stories in the news of people coming together in love, and at death find out they were of a different sex when the autopsy was done. Everone claims how can you not know this? There are all kinds of relationships. Do not get caught in this judgemental trap. peace ranieriI tried to rate this post, but was not allowed again, but wholeheartedly agree though I'm not that religious. Society created that paper, and love for one another is also possible without it, and nobody else's business.

Letmeno, you have all the support and blessings you need, so no worry! Will be thinking about you at Christmas.. ;)

I followed this thread fom sept to now and just took in the advice given to you from a lot of carring people.I was truly impressed that so many could encourage and support without condenming.That you reached your goal in a slow and thoughtful way... was beautiful.In this world seeing a mature person grow and do the right is a Marvel in itself.--Thank you for sharing and good luck! :cool: :) :) :)

I Don't Think I Was Passing Judgment On Either Of You, But In My Lifetime I Have Been Through The Grinder More Than Once. I Hate To See Anyone Make The Same Stupid Mistakes I Did If At All Possible. A Long Time Ago I Fell In Love With A Beautiful Face, But Under The Skin, She Was Meaner Than A Rattlesnake. The Last Time I Saw Her Was At The Winchester Women's Correctional Facility In Va. I Made My Peace And Walked Away, Because I Knew If I Stayed With Her Another Year I'd Probably Kill Her And Spend The Rest Of My Life In A Virginia Jail.

The Lord loves you and understands your feelings!

Well um I thought that the way god sees it is you laid with the man and have his child so yes you in gods eye big white wedding or no are married. I don't know they call me a junior expert but I seem to have more questions than answers.

Your right in Gods eyes they are already married. They joined their spirits, bodies together and created a baby.