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Morganite
Sep 22, 2005, 09:13 AM
The problems posed by the scripta defectiva of early versions of the Koran inevitably led to the growth of different centers with their own variant traditions of how the texts should be pointed or vowelized. Despite ‘Uthman’s order to destroy all texts other than his own, it is evident that the older codices survived.

Charles Adams says, "It must be emphasized that far from there being a single text passed down inviolate from the time of ‘Uthman’s commission, literally thousands of variant readings of particular verses were known in the first three (Muslim) centuries. These variants affected even the ‘Uthmanic codex, making it difficult to know what its true form may have been."

Some Muslims preferred codices other than the ‘Uthmanic, for example, those of Ibn Mas’ud, Uba ibn Ka’b, and Abu Musa. Eventually, under the influence of the great Koranic scholar Ibn Mujahid (died 935), there was a definite canonization of one system of consonants and a limit placed on the variations of vowels used in the text that resulted in acceptance of seven systems.

But other scholars accepted ten readings, and still others accepted fourteen readings. Even Ibn Mujahid’s seven provided fourteen possibilities since each of the seven was traced through two different transmitters, viz,

1. Nafi of Medina according to Warsh and Qalun

2. Ibn Kathir of Mecca according to al-Bazzi and Qunbul

3. Ibn Amir of Damascus according to Hisham and Ibn Dakwan

4. Abu Amr of Basra according to al-Duri and al-Susi

5. Asim of Kufa according to Hafs and Abu Bakr

6. Hamza of Kuga according to Khalaf and Khallad

7. Al-Kisai of Kufa according to al Duri and Abul Harith

In the end three systems prevailed, those of Warsh (d. 812) from Nafi of Medina, Hafs (d. 805) from Asim of Kufa, and al-Duri (d. 860) from Abu Amr of Basra.

At present in modern Islam, two versions seem to be in use: that of Asim of Kufa through Hafs, which was given a kind of official seal of approval by being adopted in the Egyptian edition of the Koran in 1924; and that of Nafi through Warsh, which is used in parts of Africa other than Egypt.

As Charles Adams reminds us:

It is of some importance to call attention to a possible source of misunderstanding with regard to the variant readings of the Quran. The seven (versions) refer to actual written and oral text, to distinct versions of Quranic verses, whose differences, though they may not be great, are nonetheless substantial. Since the very existence of variant readings and versions of the Quran goes against the doctrinal position toward the Holy Book held by many modern Muslims, it is not uncommon in an apologetic context to hear the seven (versions) explained as modes of recitation; in fact the manner and technique of recitation are an entirely different matter.

Guillaume also refers to the variants as "not always trifling in significance." For example, the last two verses of sura LXXXV, Al Buraj, read: (21) hawa qur’anun majidun; (22) fi lawhin mahfuzun/in. The last syllable is in doubt.

If it is in the genitive -in, it gives the meaning "It is a glorious Koran on a preserved tablet"—a reference to the Muslim doctrine of the Preserved Tablet. If it is the nominative ending -un, we get "It is a glorious Koran preserved on a tablet." There are other passages with similar difficulties dealing with social legislation.

If we allow that there were omissions, then why not additions? The authenticity of many verses in the Koran has been called into question by Muslims themselves. Many Kharijites, who were followers of ‘Ali in the early history of Islam, found the sura recounting the story of Joseph offensive, an erotic tale that did not belong in the Koran.

Hirschfeld questioned the authenticity of verses in which the name Muhammad occurs, there being something rather suspicious in such a name, meaning ‘Praised’, being borne by the Prophet.

The name was certainly not very common. However the Prophet’s name does occur in documents that have been accepted as genuine, such as the Constitution of Medina.

Most scholars believe that there are interpolations in the Koran; these interpolations can be seen as interpretative glosses on certain rare words in need of explanation.

More serious are the interpolations of a dogmatic or political character, which seem to have been added to justify the elevation of ‘Uthman as caliph to the detriment of ‘Ali.

Then there are other verses that have been added in the interest of rhyme, or to join together two short passages that on their own lack any connection.

Bell and Watt carefully go through many of the amendments and revisions and point to the unevenness of the Koranic style as evidence for a great many alterations in the Koran:

There are indeed many roughness of this kind, and these, it is here claimed, are fundamental evidence for revision. Besides the points already noticed—hidden rhymes, and rhyme phrases not woven into the texture of the passage—there are the following:

Abrupt changes of rhyme
Repetition of the same rhyme word or rhyme phrase in adjoining verses
The intrusion of an extraneous subject into a passage otherwise homogeneous
A differing treatment of the same subject in neighbouring verses, often with repetition of words and phrasesbreaks in grammatical construction which raise difficulties in exegesis
Abrupt changes in length of verse
Sudden changes of the dramatic situation, with changes of pronoun from singular to plural, from second to third person, and so on
The juxtaposition of apparently contrary statements; the juxtaposition of passages of different date, with intrusion of fare phrases into early verses.


In many cases a passage has alternative continuations which follow one another in the present text. The second of the alternatives is marked by a break in sense and by a break in grammatical construction, since the connection is not with what immediately precedes, but with what stands some distance back.

The Christian al-Kindi (not to be confused with the Arab, Muslim philosopher) writing around 830 C.E. criticized the Koran in similar terms:

The result of all this (process by which the Quran came into being) is patent to you who have read the scriptures and see how, in your book, histories are jumbled together and intermingled; an evidence that many different hands have been at work therein, and caused discrepancies, adding or cutting out whatever they liked or disliked. Are such, now, the conditions of a revelation sent down from heaven?


Is such a book trustworthy?




MORGANITE

rkim291968
Sep 22, 2005, 07:33 PM
Not just Koran...
I don't find any religious book trustworthy becase there are so many different ways to interpret. Stupid, evil people have done that to their liking and have caused so much death and grief throughout the history. It is still happening today.

Morganite
Sep 22, 2005, 08:54 PM
Not just Koran ...
I don't find any religious book trustworthy becase there are so many different ways to interpret. Stupid, evil people have done that to their liking and have caused so much death and grief throughout the history. It is still happening today.

That is a very interesting take.

Can you be more specific and give examples of as many sacred books as posslble and explain how you believe they have contributed to mankind's ills?




MORGANITE


:)

rkim291968
Sep 22, 2005, 09:02 PM
That is a very interesting take.

Can you be more specific and give examples of as many sacred books as posslble and explain how you believe they have contributed to mankind's ills?

:)

Is that really necessary? Take fundamental muslims, Taliban e.g. and see how they are interpreting Koran.

baidarka
Sep 22, 2005, 09:30 PM
Not just Koran ...
I don't find any religious book trustworthy becase there are so many different ways to interpret. Stupid, evil people have done that to their liking and have caused so much death and grief throughout the history. It is still happening today.

Agree completely. It is like the conversation I was having with a co-worker the other day. He is a devout Harvest church adherent. He referenced some obscure quote in the bible to refute the supposition that Jesus had a son, who was born in France.

I told him, we have a manufacturing facility a mere 800 miles away from us. Things are happening at this moment, with currently living witnesses, event being recorded real time--in writing, in English, yet it is difficult to get a straight story out of our manufacturing plant. With the Bible, or any other holy script, you have events that happened a couple of millenias in the past, halfway around the world, all the witnesses are dead, and things were written down in a dead language after being passed down by word of mouth, often for generations. Is any of it reliable? I doubt it.

That said, the Q'uran is probably more reliable than the Bible, simply because it is a newer document.

rkim291968
Sep 22, 2005, 10:47 PM
Agree completely. It is like the conversation I was having with a co-worker the other day. He is a devout Harvest church adherent. He referenced some obscure quote in the bible to refute the supposition that Jesus had a son, who was born in France.

I told him, we have a manufacturing facility a mere 800 miles away from us. Things are happening at this moment, with currently living witnesses, event being recorded real time--in writing, in English, yet it is difficult to get a straight story out of our manufacturing plant. With the Bible, or any other holy script, you have events that happened a couple of millenias in the past, halfway around the world, all the witnesses are dead, and things were written down in a dead language after being passed down by word of mouth, often for generations. Is any of it reliable? I doubt it.

That said, the Q'uran is probably more reliable than the Bible, simply because it is a newer document.

That's a good real life example. Even simple e-mails exchanges at my work are often misinterepted and cause a lot of mishap.

chrisl
Sep 23, 2005, 03:50 AM
With the Bible, or any other holy script, you have events that happened a couple of millenias in the past, halfway around the world, all the witnesses are dead, and things were written down in a dead language after being passed down by word of mouth, often for generations. Is any of it reliable? I doubt it.
There is no need to "doubt" in this matter. It is simple to research and verify. There are source documents in existence today in libraries and museums around the world that date to within decades of the original writings that form the Christian Greek scriptures (the New Testament.) There is no question that the NT is accurate and uncorrupted.

And while we do not have manuscripts of that age for the Hebrew Scriptures (the Old Testament), there is much other evidence of their integrity. Fragments of some OT books were found in the Dead Sea caves that date to the 2nd century BCE. They reveal no significant corruption of the texts. There are many other similar cases but the Dead Sea Scrolls are probably the most well-known.

With the wealth of manuscripts, scrolls and papyrus fragments available today, it is uninformed to claim that the Bible texts are somehow unreliable or fraudulent. Secular and religious scholarship does not agree.

If you are interested, this URL has interesting info about how we have arrived at our modern Bible:

Comparing Translations (http://www.cob-net.org/compare.htm)

I can't vouch for the author's theology but I find his analysis of Bible scholarship to be very interesting and easy to follow.


That said, the Q'uran is probably more reliable than the Bible, simply because it is a newer document.
Frankly, I view the age of the Quran as a weakness. To me, if I had to start from scratch looking for the genuine written word of our Creator, I would start with the oldest books. It makes perfect sense that God's word would be one of the first documents recorded by mankind, if not the first.

Chris

G4-450
Sep 23, 2005, 04:54 AM
While some things in certain versions of the bible show that they have not been corrupted they also demostrate everything in the bibles they are and there corruptions, asn also directly by people who abused them at those times, especially with Gospals which do not have authors.

The Al Qur'an iis the word of God according to JP ii
http://www.politicalinformation.net/encyclopedia/Jp2koran2.jpg

Why

Do a search about JP's investigation on the crucifixion of Jesus and if you can find it anymore, JP discovered that the Quran had over 25 proofs of been the word of God and asks believers of every faith to believe only in one god and stop the wrongdoing.

This link also has some interesting facts to read up on.

http://www.themodernreligion.com/comparative.html

I am not saying the Bible is totally corrupted as is, I am saying there is clearly written corruption in it and some repented and some did not yet as we see today who still use the bible (Torah and Gospels) as well as the rest of it to destructive ends.

baidarka
Sep 23, 2005, 07:11 AM
There is no need to "doubt" in this matter. It is simple to research and verify.

Research only gets you so far, if it is researching old texts. Even the old texts are based on information passed on by word of mouth. I trust archaeological evidence, such as concrete artifacts much more. But then, you're still open to interpretation.

As for the Q'uran being less reliable, due to it's newness, that is probably true, if you are referring to identical events covered by the Bible and the Torah. However, as far as events that occurred during Mohammed's time, I would tend to believe that they are recorded more accurately than the Bible covers Jesus' life.

chrisl
Sep 23, 2005, 07:53 AM
Research only gets you so far, if it is researching old texts. Even the old texts are based on information passed on by word of mouth. I trust archaeological evidence, such as concrete artifacts much more. But then, you're still open to interpretation.
So your doubt is not really so much about the subsequent written transmission as it is about the trustworthiness of the original message?

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "archaeological evidence" and "concrete artifacts." To me, an ancient scroll recovered from a cave or a papyrus fragment found in an Eqyptian excavation would definitely qualify. Can you expand on this a little bit?


As for the Q'uran being less reliable, due to it's newness, that is probably true, if you are referring to identical events covered by the Bible and the Torah. However, as far as events that occurred during Mohammed's time, I would tend to believe that they are recorded more accurately than the Bible covers Jesus' life.
I agree that the Quran would be the most reliable source of info about the teachings of Islam and Mohammed's time, but I don't think it's valid to say that it must be more accurate than the Bible simply because it is more recent.

The Bible has withstood many centuries of criticism, scrutiny and attacks by opposers and enemies. In my opinion, the Bible's long history supports its accuracy and reliability rather than the other way around. It's kind of like a very old and respected legal precedent or court case. Such a precedent deserves respect because it is old and has withstood more challenges.

Chris

baidarka
Sep 23, 2005, 09:14 AM
Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "archaeological evidence" and "concrete artifacts." To me, an ancient scroll recovered from a cave or a papyrus fragment found in an Eqyptian excavation would definitely qualify. Can you expand on this a little bit?

Well, for one thing, the content of what is written on the scrolls, I tend to take with a grain of salt. However, the study on the parchment material, perhaps radiocarbon dating, that sort of thing I trust more. I mean, if the scrolls document a world wide flood, do I take that literally? No.

But geological evidence points to a flood that might have innundated the entire region. Not the entire world, but it was the whole world to them. So, I believe the geological evidence, but not the written word from that period.

This is not to say that I totally discount ancient scripts. I tend to trust details from scripts that are likely free of bias and competing interests. If I were to use northeast Asian history as an example (a field I'm comfortable speaking about), I place very little credence on written Japanese texts as it relates to its place in the hierarchy of nations in the early period of Japan's formation as a nation state.

Japan was a relatively new nation formed circa AD 200, by immigrants from Korea, and the chief aim of the ancient Japanese texts such as the Kojiki and Nihongi were to bolster the idea that Japan was just as old and distinguished as China and Korea. So they fabricated a long line of emperors dating back several thousand years, made claims of having a subordinate state in Korea. Archaeological evidence showed massive cultural and technological transfer into Japan from the Korean peninsula, thus making the Japanese claim very unlikely. The sheer paupacity of archaeological artifacts from pre-AD 200 makes their claim of antiquity highly unlikely.

But, the fabrications are understandable when one realizes that Korea and China deridingly dubbed Japan as "Wa," (Wae in Korean), which comes from the Chinese character for "small" or "fraile." These ancient texts were attempts to escape such belittlement.

But as far as Japanese records of who gave birth to whom, and how so and so it related to so and so, there is little reason to doubt them, because they are free from competing interests.

So, going back to the Bible as a reliable document, all the competing interest during that period throws much of it into doubt, in my opinion. You have the Romans trying to suppress a rebellion in its colony, the Jews trying to suppress someone they viewed as a heretic, and the Christians trying to assert their rights. Trying to piece together events from three competing points of view is difficult I think. I think the written scripts should be corroborating evidence, rather than the primary source. Archaeological artifacts should be the primary.

chrisl
Sep 23, 2005, 09:57 AM
... the study on the parchment material, perhaps radiocarbon dating, that sort of thing I trust more... geological evidence
OK, I follow. You prefer the "hard" sciences. There are, of course, many archaeological sites that confirm the Bible record.

As for the flood, I don't think the geological evidence is so much missing as it is misinterpreted. I think geological evidence that many attribute to glacial activity is in reality flood damage. And I saw a program on cable awhile back about a geologist who claimed that very thing about an area in North America--I think it was the Mississippi River basin or something. He wasn't talking about THE flood, just A flood. But his point was how similar the effects were. Yet his colleagues were publishing papers and claiming that it was obviously glacial. He was attacked and ridiculed by his colleagues but they eventually were forced to admit that he was right. I wish I could remember what program that was...

Anyway, science is not perfect and we must be open-minded about other explanations. Not gullible: open-minded. As I've said before, science has a long history of saying, "D'oh!"


So they fabricated a long line of emperors dating back several thousand years, made claims of having a subordinate state in Korea... the fabrications are understandable when one realizes that Korea and China deridingly dubbed Japan as "Wa," (Wae in Korean), which comes from the Chinese character for "small" or "fraile." These ancient texts were attempts to escape such belittlement.
That's interesting. I don't know a lot about Far East cultures and I didn't know this about Japanese history. But from what I've read, few civilizations were eager to record their own failures.

But the Bible is very different in that regard. To me, a powerful hallmark of Biblical authenticity is the frank and honest disclosure of MAJOR shortcomings and unfaithfulness by the writers. If someone wanted to forge or embellish their history, why put themselves in such unfavorable light? What reason would they have to claim that they descended from slaves in Egypt? Or that their greatest kings fell into adultery and idolatry?

The Bible record contains many exposures and admissions of gross wrongdoing. Why? To my mind, the only logical answer is because it's genuine.

Chris

Morganite
Sep 23, 2005, 10:08 AM
Is that really necessary? Take fundamental muslims, Taliban e.g., and see how they are interpreting Koran.


It would be very helpful to those interested in the subject if you would explain in some detail (so that we could follow your arguments and understand your interpretation), precisely, and in some detail, what it is that you find wrong with sacred texts.

I have heard about Taliban but which parts of the Koran are they interpreting in ways that disagree with how you interpret it?





MORGANITE



:)

baidarka
Sep 23, 2005, 10:09 AM
But the Bible is very different in that regard. To me, a powerful hallmark of Biblical authenticity is the frank and honest disclosure of MAJOR shortcomings and unfaithfulness by the writers. If someone wanted to forge or embellish their history, why put themselves in such unfavorable light? What reason would they have to claim that they descended from slaves in Egypt? Or that their greatest kings fell into adultery and idolatry?

The Bible record contains many exposures and admissions of gross wrongdoing. Why? To my mind, the only logical answer is because it's genuine.

Chris

Well, I think another factor is that the whole point of the Bible, is not simply a faithful record of history, but an attempt to drive home a certain moral message. Exposing wrongdoings is a vital part of any didactic story. Of course, since God is the only one infallible, according to the Bible, all others, including Kings, would be subject to failure. Plus, didn't God allow the Jews to be enslaved by the Egyptians because of some shortcoming in their faith? Again, a moral message.

Morganite
Sep 23, 2005, 10:11 AM
Japan was a relatively new nation formed circa AD 200, by immigrants from Korea, [... ]

But as far as Japanese records of who gave birth to whom, and how so and so it related to so and so, there is little reason to doubt them, because they are free from competing interests.



I understood the Japanese to be a mixture of Korean and Chinese. Is this correct?




MORGANITE




:)

baidarka
Sep 23, 2005, 10:19 AM
I have heard about Taliban but which parts of the Koran are they interpreting in ways that disagree with how you interpret it?

There are many contradictory passages in the Q'uran, in my opinion. I have read parts of it, though I could never get through the entire thing, because after a while, it seemed to repeat itself. Every major passage seems to end with something like, "God is all-forgiving and wise," or something like that. It was a period in my life when I was in love with a Muslim girl, and wanted to see if conversion was even a remote possibility. Sadly, the answer was no. Some parts seem to encourage tolerance and kindness, while others advocate revenge on your enemies. Some passages seem to encourage killing infidels, while sparing the women and children. I found the token gesture of humanity kind of laughable. Overall, I found passages that encourages violence against infidels to far outnumber tolerance, however. But, anyone can cherry pick certain passages to support whatever radical/moderate views they have.

I found the entire book to be lacking any sort of clarity, or unifying theme, besides the message that God is good. Strangely enough, I think its rambling nature is what mystifies believers even more. Believers think that the Q'uran is the literal words of God. The parts that do not make sense can be explained away as they unknowable nature of God.

baidarka
Sep 23, 2005, 10:27 AM
I understood the Japanese to be a mixture of Korean and Chinese. Is htis correct?




MORGANITE




:)

Genetically speaking, almost entirely Korean, with minor input from the aboriginal people that lived in pre-historic Japan. Studies seem to indicate that the Ainus of northern Japan are a genetic mix of Korean migrants and aboriginal Japanese, but with a larger input from the aboriginal part.

Linguistically, Korean and Japanese are related. Not really close like Spanish and Portuguese. Probably not even as close as English and German.

G4-450
Sep 23, 2005, 10:40 AM
I believe the Qur'an is true in its wisdom and teachings, it does not even take sides with Arabs but calls for unity to one God, something shocking got the people at that time. as well as tell how the people who CAN NOT READ and hear the word and are patient with there religion should not provoke war since Mohammed let them practice there religion, pay there own tax rate and sign a peace treaty.

And it directs everything towards God been the disposer of man's affairs and reminds the reader to look in the past over and over to understand who invites you to peace and who it is that invites you self destruction as well as how to tell the difference between evil and good of the Bible (torah and Gospels).

One must remember something very important about the Qur'an before making the same mistakes I did which I think are common been a bible study person, the Yassuf Alli version of the Qur'an (english) is one of the best versions to get because it explains it chronological order of revelations and details to whom some of the chapter where addressing (the enemies of Mohammed and Islam ) as for example his Uncles tribe the Quaresh, and all the pagans arguments and war declarations against islam and the idea of unity and the one true God, but you can not tell this at a glance unless you read this all in arabic because of the variations. I do not speak arabic but the Yasuf Alli version called "The meaning of the Holy Qur'an" also adds explinations to many bilingual miss interpretations.

I agree with most of the posts here about many problems with all the scriptures been abused by people who miss understand them.

What I do not agree with "Morgentide" an his agenda for attacking the Qur'an while yet claiming that the Talmud is 100% clean when it teaches ethnic cleansing of Arab and black jews and all non jews as well and is obviously a anti semitic ideology itself.

I mention the Talmud since it is a Anti Semitic Rabbinic book and calls all racist alike it up for blame games to justify hate trends because of Rabbinic inventions in it. while many teaching in it are good it does inded have some Evil Rabbis as well making scary statements and no one has proven it pure and clean yet.+ even in a court of law as France attempted to do when they discovered Israel got Nuclear Weapons some how and lied about it.

So there are in fact anti semitic people disguised as jews as much as Christians and muslims who are not at all true to any of the 3 faiths, the Qur'an warns the reader of such people and reminds man about the one true God, the Torah and the Tenack, the gospels and man's purpose in earth, and also states that it does not matter what religion one claims they fallow as long as they do God's will, be good and remember the last day when they meet there lord.

Further more, the Qur'an goes on to say that if any so called Jews are true to there covenant then ask them to wish for death to meet there due portion of the hear after as promised by there lord for there virtues, and if you witness terror in there eyes it is because these are not jews but liars or what I believe today are Zionists.

So yes the Qur'an is a valid word of God as long as anyone who reads it does not mix racial ideologies with it been a black or arab poeples God or Book but the God of Abraham.

As far as parts not understood in the Qur'an, all I can say that it has codes (letters) to protect it from corruption as the Torah did, and they stood for meanings we now understand but before both Arabic and Hebrew where officially spoken languages, and both Semitic peoples from the cradle of the human race which brings us all to the conclusion of our fathers.

There is no evidence to any other people pre dating who we now refer to as Arabs in Iran, Syria and Iraq which means we all descended from these areas from the beginning and the so called Theories of evolution are simply Theories.

chrisl
Sep 23, 2005, 10:54 AM
Well, I think another factor is that the whole point of the Bible, is not simply a faithful record of history, but an attempt to drive home a certain moral message.
This is certainly true, although I would say it is more than an "attempt." ;) It succeeds completely. The history and science is secondary to the message. Yet, I find even that fact to be significant. The science and history is not used for "gee-whiz" effect, as if the writers were trying to impress or justify. Often it is totally incidental or even obscure.

One more point worth considering is how firmly the Bible is grounded in dates and places. It is not like other holy books that seem far more "once-upon-a-time"-ish, like fables or myths. Not so with the Bible. Events are placed in historical context with very detailed locations. That too has the ring of authenticity to me.

If someone's going to forge a book, why make it so easy to expose by using easily verifiable things like dates and places? It'd be like a criminal purposely leaving clues at a crime scene.

Chris

Tower4Love
Sep 23, 2005, 11:13 AM
Shalom

The Koran is for those who did not practice the Torah and are lost from the truth, it's a guidance for them.

The Koran does not call for the destruction of Judaism or Christianity as we also witnessed in Spain and Israel for 800 years of peace, but when the reader understands its truth they should stick to there covenants as much as I should if I understand the Torah,


The Koran clearly says God has sent prophets to there people with the same moral messages to deliver them from destructive ends and demonstrates that.

But again, if you made your covenant with been Jewish then you are, if your muslim then you are and since there is one God then stick to your faith if it is peace your after. I am educated not to Judge otheres for there faith if they have any.

baidarka
Sep 23, 2005, 01:01 PM
If someone's going to forge a book, why make it so easy to expose by using easily verifiable things like dates and places? It'd be like a criminal purposely leaving clues at a crime scene.

Chris

Who knows why people do what they do? Claims of people living to be 800 years of age is clearly refutable.

chrisl
Sep 23, 2005, 01:16 PM
Claims of people living to be 800 years of age is clearly refutable.
How?

Chris

G4-450
Sep 23, 2005, 01:31 PM
Who knows why people do what they do? Claims of people living to be 800 years of age is clearly refutable.

Well I have a question for you, how much different do you think the people 800 or even 5000 years ago were from the people just several generations ago before we had electricity and other so called modern comforts that speed up communications?


As for me, I usually always say, just because some people are obsessed and love or worship material things, new ideas and have all kinds of short comings they failed to see from there lusts and impatience from status of wealth, power or greed still does not make them better people then anyone before them who also fell into perdition from been absorbed by there things which blinded them away from true happines, and while yet good people where around them as examples or they could of read a bible or even Koran or some other books with a little glimpse of hope for guidance .

So, unless I totally do not believe in God. I would not exactly take the chance to argue with God's message unless I had solid proof for myself like JPII and others did. we all have our own deeds to face, no one else can take our place id we are evil can they, Jesus certainly never promised salvation to Satan or evil people so what makes some people think he will take the blame is a sin alone.

Tower4Love
Sep 23, 2005, 01:44 PM
Shalom

I was born into my religion, so as I was growing up I witnessed many people and some of the lessons I myself would have learned the hard way if I did not have a Torah.

But whether or not anyone has access to any scriptures or not, if they are honest they can themselves learn the lessons for we all have our own deeds whether Good, Bad, open or secret to live with.

But over all, I agree with the statement you just made.

chrisl
Sep 23, 2005, 03:30 PM
The Koran is for those who did not practice the Torah and are lost from the truth, its a guidance for them.
I would assume that this statement is based on what the Koran says rather than the Bible. Do you have any scriptural support for this belief? Or do you not accept the Bible?

Just trying to understand the basis for your beliefs before I go any further. I don't want another G4-450 debacle... ;)

Chris

chrisl
Sep 23, 2005, 03:54 PM
Who knows why people do what they do?
This suggests that you view the Bible writers as ignorant, which is not only untrue, but also leads to another point to consider. Bible critics often use two different yet contradictory objections to the authenticity of the Bible.

On the one hand they will claim that the Bible writers were so ignorant and primitive that you can't believe a word they say. On the other hand they will claim that they were so smart and sophisticated that they could pull off The Forgery Of All Forgeries and get the entire world to fall for it.

If you can't get one to stick, try the other!

But if you just reason on what the Bible itself really says, without any kind of prejudice, I think you would find conclusive evidence that the Bible writers were exactly who they said they were and that what they wrote is true and accurate.

And the really tough question that we haven't talked about is, how do you explain Biblical prophecy?

And MORGANITE--I apologize for getting off topic!

Chris

Morganite
Sep 23, 2005, 07:49 PM
This suggests that you view the Bible writers as ignorant, which is not only untrue, but also leads to another point to consider. Bible critics often use two different yet contradictory objections to the authenticity of the Bible.

On the one hand they will claim that the Bible writers were so ignorant and primitive that you can't believe a word they say. On the other hand they will claim that they were so smart and sophisticated that they could pull off The Forgery Of All Forgeries and get the entire world to fall for it.

If you can't get one to stick, try the other!

But if you just reason on what the Bible itself really says, without any kind of prejudice, I think you would find conclusive evidence that the Bible writers were exactly who they said they were and that what they wrote is true and accurate.

And the really tough question that we haven't talked about is, how do you explain Biblical prophecy?

And MORGANITE--I apologize for getting off topic!

Chris



Yours was the first deviation that made sense and didn't have me scurrying for there bomb shelter.



MORGANITE

Tower4Love
Sep 23, 2005, 10:10 PM
I would assume that this statement is based on what the Koran says rather than the Bible. Do you have any scriptural support for this belief? Or do you not accept the Bible?

Just trying to understand the basis for your beliefs before I go any further. I don't want another G4-450 debacle... ;)

Chris
Shalom

Yes indeed it is from the Qur'an, which also contains the laws (10 commandments) and lessons from the Torah. you can not judge a single word in a book without reading it can you?


Koran
[28.43] We did reveal to Moses the Book after We had destroyed the earlier generations, (to give) Insight to men, and guidance and Mercy, that they might receive admonition.
[28.44] And thou (Muhammad) wast not on the western side (of the Mount) when We expounded unto Moses the commandment, and thou wast not among those present;
[28.45] But We raised up generations, then life became prolonged to them; and you were not dwelling among the people of Madyan, reciting to them Our communications, but We were the senders.
[28.46] And you were not on this side of the mountain when We called, but a mercy from your Lord that you may warn a people to whom no warner came before you, that they may be mindful.
[28.47] If (We had) not (sent thee to the Quraish),- in case a calamity should seize them for (the deeds) that their hands have sent forth, they might say: "Our Lord! why didst Thou not sent us a messenger? We should then have followed Thy Signs and been amongst those who believe!"
[28.48] But (now), when the Truth has come to them from Ourselves, they say, "Why are not (Signs) sent to him, like those which were sent to Moses?" Do they not then reject (the Signs) which were formerly sent to Moses? They say: "Two kinds of sorcery, each assisting the other!" And they say: "For us, we reject all (such things)!"
[28.49] Say: Then bring some (other) book from Allah which is a better guide than both of them, (that) I may follow it, if you are truthful.
[28.50] But if they do not answer you, then know that they only follow their low desires; and who is more erring than he who follows his low desires without any guidance from Allah? Surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
[28.51] And certainly We have made the word to reach them so that they may be mindful.
[28.52] (As to) those whom We gave the Book before it, they are believers in it.
[28.53] And when it is recited to them they say: We believe in it surely it is the truth from our Lord; surely we were submitters before this.

It states clearly that the Torah was given to Moses and the people who followed it recognize the word of God also in the Qur'an when they heard it, but its was directed to warn and guide the Quraish tribe, and a example like all prior prophets sent to there people to guide them, read it yourself.

The Bible Contains the 'Torah' (1st 5 books of Moses)known as the Hebrew Bible, yet "Targum Onqelos on the Five Books of Moses" where in Hebrew and Aramaic (arabic) with Hebrew Vowels to spell out the Tenach, these are the most important basis of Jewish beliefs and the holiest book.

The Koran contains what is known (in) arabic as the 'Sharia' (laws) but actually means the same thing and repeats the same stories in the "Torah/Tenach" known to other faiths as the Hebrew Bible. to again Guide them back to the laws which it clearly states.

Muslim is a verb, and in arabic actually means doing do the will of God, his commandments in the Torah.

The Talmuds on the other hand which G4-450 keeps mentioning where Rabbinic corruption's and in only aramaic (arabic) an not at all Hebrew.

The Gospels where also in Aramaic or simply Greek.

Simple

Morganite
Sep 24, 2005, 09:02 AM
I quote from your posting to Christ:

We did reveal to Moses the Book after We had destroyed ... <snip>

Is this God speaking as "We," or is it the Prophet and his companions?


BTW - the Gospels were written in Koine, the commercial and common form of Greek that became the written language of Palestine and surrounding areas following the process of Hellenization that naturally followed in the wake of its conqueror, Alexander Magnus.

Thank you in advance for your answer.




MORGANITE



:)

Morganite
Sep 24, 2005, 09:33 AM
Shalom

The Bible Contains the 'Torah' (1st 5 books of Moses)known as the Hebrew Bible,



Salaam,

The Hebrew Scriptures, or Hebrew Bible, either term is acceptable, is properly called by Hebrews, TANAK, or Tenech, etc. depending on your version of Hebrew.

The Tanak contains the Torah, or Pentateuch, and supplies the "T" in TNK. The "N" is supplied by the Nabiim (Prophets), and the "K" is supplied by the Ketrubim, or Writings).

Thus, an acronym for Torak, Nabiim, Ketubim is formed from their first letters: TNK, with vowels added to allow it to be expressed vocally as Tanak, or some variation.



The remainder of your sentence is disjointed and makes no sense. There is something missing and I am unable to determine your intention:

[BOLD"yet "Targum Onqelos on the Five Books of Moses" where in Hebrew and Aramaic (arabic) with Hebrew Vowels to spell out the Tenach, these are the most important basis of Jewish beliefs and the holiest book."[/BOLD]

You start to say something that the Tarrg. Onk. Says, but you do not complete the thought.


Historically, there is evidence that the scribes were making oral paraphrases of the Hebrew Scriptures into the Aramaic vernacular as early as the time of Ezra (Neh. 8:1-8).

These paraphrases were not strictly translations, but were actually aids in understanding the archaic language forms of the Torah. That is, the sense of what was written was translated, rather than the actual words. Words written on one language to express thoughts and ideas, hardly ever translate directly into another language if the meaning rather than the form is to be maintained. Literal translations become linguistic mush, but dynamic translations convey the writer's intention.

The necessity for such translations arose because Hebrew was becoming less and less familiar to the ordinary people as a spoken language, but it was still spoiken.

By the close of the last centuries B.C.E. this gradual process had continued until almost every book in the Old Testament had its oral paraphrase or interpretation (Targum). These are similar to commentaries and serve the same purpose.

During the early centuries AD. these Targums were committed to writing, and an official text came to the fore, since the Hebrew canon, text, and interpretation had become well solidified before the rabbinical scholars of Jamnia (c. AD 90), and the expulsion of the Jews from Palestine in AD 135.

The earliest Targums were apparently written in Palestinian Aramaic during the second century AD.; however, there is evidence of Aramaic Targums from the pre-Christian period.

These early official Targums contained the Law (Torah) and the Prophets (Nebiim), but the Writings (Ketubim) were included in unofficial Targums in later times.

It is interesting to note that a pre-Christian Targum of Job was written in Palestinian Aramaic and discovered in Cave 11 at Qumran. Cave 4 contained a Targum of the Pentateuch. These unofficial Aramaic Targums were superseded by official text in the second century AD.

You mention Onkelos in your incomplete sentence. During the third century AD, there appeared in Babylonia an Aramaic Targum on the Torah. This Targum was possibly a recension of an earlier Palestinian tradition but may have originated in Babylonia.

It has been traditionally ascribed to Onkelos (Ongelos), a name probably confused with Aquila (Aquila is the name of the scholar who made a slavishly literal Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament as a substitute for the LXX; the confusion of the names was undoubtedly enhanced by the rigid rendering of the text of this Targum, which is itself regarded as a recension by many scholars.)

Another Babylonian Aramaic Targum accompanies the Prophets (Former and Latter), and is known as the Targum of Jonathan ben Uzziel. It dates from the fourth century AD, and is freer and more periphrastic in its rendering of the text. Both of those Targums were read in the synagogues: Onkelos along with the Torah, which was read in its entirety, and Jonathan along with selections from the Prophets (haphtaroth, pl.).

Just as the Jews abandoned their native Hebrew tongue for Aramaic (In Jesus time they spoke Aramaic) in the Near East, so they abandoned the Aramaic in favor of Greek (Jesus quoted from the LXX) in such Hellenistic centers as Alexandria, Egypt. During the campaigns of Alexander the Great, the Jews were shown considerable favor. In fact, Alexander was sympathetic towards the Jews as a result of their policies toward him in the siege of Tyre (332 B.C.E.).

It was during the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus (after the death of Alexander the Great) that full political and religious rights were granted to the Jews. It was in that period (c. 250-c. 150 BCE), that the Hebrew Old Testament (Tanak) was translated into Greek-the first time it had ever been extensively translated. The leaders of Alexandrian Jewry had a standard Greek version produced, known as the LXX (It should be noted that the term Septuagint applies strictly to the Pentateuch, which was probably the only portion of the Old Testament translated during the time of Ptolemy II Philadelphus.), the Greek word for “seventy.”

It was translated during the third and/or second centuries B.C.E. and was purported to have been written as early as the time of Ptolemy II in a Letter of Aristeas to Philocartes (c. 130-100 B.C.E.).

Understanding the make-up of the Hebrew Scriptures is, as you suggest, simple, but only when you have the facts at your fingertips.

It might be that you are aware of these facts and intended to include than rather than give the impression that you do now know them, which aspects of your post suggest,and that somehow your post became corrupted.

If it does nothing else, it provides a vivid demonstration of how frail the art of copyists and scribes are, even when copying sacred texts.


I will address one other poiint. You seem to indicate that Aramaic is Arabic, when you wrote of "Aramaic (Arabic) "

That is absolutely not true.

Aramaic was the lingua franca of much of the Near East from about 7th century BC until the 7th century AD, when it was largely replaced by Arabic. A thing cannot be replaced by itself!

Classical or Imperial Aramaic was the main language of the Persian, Babylonian and Assyrian empires and spread as far as Greece and the Indus valley.

After Alexander the Great destroyed the Persian Empire, Aramaic ceased to be the official language of any major state, though continued to be spoken widely. It was during this period that Aramaic split into western and eastern dialects.

Aramaic was once the main language of the Jews and appears in some of the Dead Sea Scrolls. It is still used as a liturgical language by Christian communities in Syria, Lebanon and Iraq, and is still spoken by small numbers of people in Iraq, Turkey, Iran, Armenia, Georgia and Syria.

Aramaic has also been written in versions of the Latin, Hebrew and Cyrillic alphabets, though the Syriac is the most widely used script to write Aramaic.

Arabic is an entirely different language. The Arabic script was derived from the Nabataean Aramaic script, and has been used since the 4th century AD, but the earliest document, which is an inscription in Arabic, Syriac and Greek, dates from 512 AD.

The Aramaic language has fewer consonants than Arabic, so during the 7th century new Arabic letters were created by adding dots to existing letters in order to avoid ambiguities.

Further diacritics indicating short vowels were introduced, but are only generally used to ensure the Qur'an was read aloud without mistakes.

There are two main types of written Arabic:

1. Classical Arabic - the language of the Qur'an and classical literature. It differs from Modern Standard Arabic mainly in style and vocabulary, some of which is archaic.

All Muslims are expected to recite the Qur'an in the Arabic. However many have to rely on translations to understand the text because they do not understand Arabic.

2. Modern Standard Arabic - the universal language of the Arabic-speaking world which is understood by all Arabic speakers. It is the language of the vast majority of written material and of formal TV shows, lectures, etc.


MORGANITE


:)

G4-450
Sep 24, 2005, 10:19 AM
I quote from your posting to Christ:

We did reveal to Moses the Book after We had destroyed ......

Is this God speaking as "We," or is it the Prophet and his companions?

Try reading it again Morganstine, I take English is not your first language.

Koran
[28.43] We did reveal to Moses the Book after We had destroyed the earlier generations, (to give) Insight to men, and guidance and Mercy, that they might receive admonition.


Today, you're a example of the same generations then, still ignorant and never evolved to succeed in happiness. have you found any happiness yet besides the kicks you get from been devious and a liar?

We do not need more racist like you willing to lie in order to attack Islam, Judaism or any other people you are terrorized about like the GErman Nazis where when they dragged there people into a hole from xenophobia.
Bush, Ariel Sharon and the losers they sent to rid of to war have been enough problems to the climate this year, so before more hurricanes or earth-shakes hit California lets try to stick to the subject.

You posted ca 'WE' trust the Koran, I take it you invited people who did not trust the koran but rather hoped pagans joined you with there obsessions in hoping to seek in there darkness by turning everything into a mystery in order to get a piece of the pie in the hear after.

So try reading before you start copy pasting from the anti islam or anti jewish and just anti semitic websites skin heads who claim to be jews or muslims use as a way to start trouble between people online like your trying with lies.

Here is a buddy of yours BTW :)
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41345000/jpg/_41345919_omrisharon_203body_ap.jpg

The son of Israel's prime minister has been formally indicted on corruption charges, the justice ministry has said.
The indictment of Omri Sharon, announced last month, follows an investigation into corruption in the funding of his father's party.

The charges relate to Ariel Sharon's 1999 bid to lead the Likud Party and to be its candidate for prime minister.

Attention will be focused on how the charges affect the prime minister, who has consistently denied involvement.

If found guilty, Omri Sharon faces up to five years in prison over charges of violating campaign finance laws.

Morganite
Sep 24, 2005, 02:40 PM
You have written:

" .... "Morgentide" and his agenda for attacking the Qur'an while yet claiming that the Talmud is 100% clean ... "

Two things.

First, my name is MORGANITE. not MORGANSTEIN, not MORGANTIDE, and not any other of your insulting inventions.

Second, I do not have an 'agenda,' either for attacking the Qur'an or for promoting the Talmud as 100% clean, whatever that is meant to mean.

I have not attacked the Qur'an, and I have never made any representation whatsoever regarding the Talmud.

That you say I have, means that you are a liar, and I now call on you to furnish supporting evidence for your allegations.



He who lies to serve his God serves the Shaitan, and by doing so he spits on God and becomes Shaitan himself.


I have challenged you to bring your evidence to support your statements about my 'agenda.'

If you are a man, you will now tell the truth and admit that you are a liar. If you do not, then we shall all see what kind of person you are.



MORGANITE

Morganite
Sep 24, 2005, 03:21 PM
"We" is God talking to other Gods?

NeedKarma
Sep 24, 2005, 03:35 PM
Scientology is the way to go. No one has refuted it yet. If only I had enough money to ascend the pyramid <sigh>.

abusliman
Sep 24, 2005, 09:15 PM
Why Koran can be trusted:
1- it is a religious book that never changed from more than 1400 years ; it is the same book that prophet Mohamed taught his followers ;after death of prophet Mohamed by nearly six month khalifa abu bakr decided to collect the Koran in one book because many of Koran memorizers were killed in wars so he charged one of the Muslims to handle the collecting of Koran from men's harts and sheets and he told him that any phrase to be written in the book it must be found written in sheets and have two witnesses on it that they must say it from memory so the mission was accomplished and the book was called moshaf that means a book contains Koran between its two ends and after khalifa abu bakr died by nearly 15 years khalifa authman made several copies of Koran and sent it to all Islamic regions ; so Koran never changed because it was kept in harts and sheets and today if you compared the copy of Koran with a Muslim in America you will find it the same as with a Muslim in china .
2- Koran is several miracles in one book ; it was a challenge for Arab the nation that had no skill before Islam except in poetry ;the Arab poets stood puzzled against challenge of Koran although Koran was made from the same language they speak but they could not fabricate something like it with its powerful structure and superior words and meanings and for non Arabs it was a miracle in sociality and morals and science and economy and all the fields that have human activity ; the meaning of Koran words are flexible and renewed that make Koran valid for every time and every place.
To know more about Koran and Islam you can visit the following sites:
www.Harunyahya.com
www.Al-islam.com
www.Islam-guide.com
www.Islamworld.net
www.Islamfinder.com
www.Al-sunnah.com
Thetruereligion.org
www.Discover-islam.net

G4-450
Sep 24, 2005, 10:11 PM
Well

Besides the fact that no science has superseded the Koran and even the bible, and the fact that the Koran clearly states that no science will be possibly superseded it even until the and of time before there own destruction, it is best to just seek the wisdom and guidance in it.

The Abdul Yassuf Ali "meaning of the holy Koran" should be read a few times patiently with the commentaries,
-Explained in detail are the times the revelations came to MOhammed,

-Describing the situations and evidence against those who attacked him from the start

-it refutes the lies that Mohammed was a quaresh when through out the koran they where theee pagans of mekah and Mohammed's very enemies after his uncle died, alike abraham he had to stick to his beliefs rather then how some people in these posts believe race, blood or genes have to do with there choices.

-It contains direct links to the torah and gospels when they are mentioned as evidence against those who threatened the peace treaties and the consequences they paid before time with God,

-It contains detailed revelations that became apparent hundreds of years after a actual koran existed like the world was round, the seas are split in two, places where things took place, evolution of man, the earth and the expansion of the universe but also goes further in proving it contains the same God of the Torah by greeting those of it who kept true to there word and provides them the proof to decide for themselves.

-It also exposes and refutes all paganic systems and clearly explains them and there systematic limits based on there theories which could only bring short comings and hope rather then facts and truth sustainable as also the bible has but contains falsehood by mans hands in it.

-It spells out what a hypocrite is in the bible and in the koran and how they seek powers or gains in argument, even go as far as killing over there own blind addictions to there materialism, ideologies and other ignorant reasons for power since they do not get God's blessing and are blindly un happy like satan all there lives unless they repent.

-And finally it Guides people by making it clear that until peace tries after peace treaties are broken (which happened) then and only then would a believer cut off those who are rebellious, and also exposed any false muslims who believed others HAVE to be ones by teaching that God guides only just people .

-Over all, the Koran states that it is the word of the same merciful God of the Bible, who will grant this life as test to all and give all a free choice to do what they wilt, and that this life is about many chances to repent but Terror in the bible and destruction of evil tyranny in many ways not perceived will be the same for the cursed non believers,

-And for the west, we learned in the U.S. that it gave us meanings to things like freedom of speech, equal rights, scientology's and the use of the arabic number system and I can go on

But my point is that we can not just simply judge the koran as false because some people here still live in the dark ages because they are addicted to false fairy tails that Jesus was not from the middle east and the theory of evolution as Hitler put to practice with GErmans been the best race and other ignorant things not yet but proved the enemies of the koran as well been the same of humanity which impulsively attack innocent lives from there own diseases like racism, which is the roots of all hatred and Satans very own kind.

So I do not think the science in it the koran is going to convince people as much as the science in the Bible since they share the same stories and even though the koran has allot more to show, I think its best to look at some of the more advanced civilizations and ask how come they never superseded mother natures fury as we see the US coast getting smacked with and also predict worse to come.

G4-450
Sep 24, 2005, 10:58 PM
You have written:

" .... "Morgentide" and his agenda for attacking the Qur'an while yet claiming that the Talmud is 100% clean ... "

Two things.

First, my name is MORGANITE. not MORGANSTEIN, not MORGANTIDE, and not any other of your insulting inventions.

Second, I do not have an 'agenda,' either for attacking the Qur'an or for promoting the Talmud as 100% clean, whatever that is meant to mean.

I have not attacked the Qur'an, and I have never made any representation whatsoever regarding the Talmud.

That you say I have, means that you are a liar, and I now call on you to furnish supporting evidence for your allegations.



He who lies to serve his God serves the Shaitan, and by doing so he spits on God and becomes Shaitan himself lie me. :)


I have challenged you to bring your evidence to support your statements about my 'agenda.' even though i have posted many aims of mine which contradicted my points into arguments to confuse you from the truth.

If you are a man, you will now tell the truth and admit that you are a liar. If you do not, then we shall all see what kind of person you are.



MORGANITE

Here is a (tiny) list of your deceptive attacks and racial theories which go against the topics, discussing anything with truth, any teachings from any culture, generation or book that upholds scientific facts that the whole human race started where the very people you hate are, Iraq, iran and Syria.



1-Can we trust the Koran?
Who is "we" MorganStine?
2-Charles Adams says ......
Charles Adams had published books on islamic law but lied in order to blend people with the influence of Mohammed on pagans linked to the koran which goes against idol worship of Mohammed itself., many racist and Islam phoebes use this long legal text book to force there prey in giving up on seeking the truth for themselves in order to win a argument, spells a hypocrite to me.
Example; Charles Adams claims islam teaches to kill non muslims, but there is no evidence in any of the so called first peace treaties in the world by Mohammed other then the pagans breaking them and been threatened to live Medina or Mecca that they where attacked other then self defense if attacked at all to be forced to leave.,
And this also is completely not even to do with your topic, but that you use the same tactics by starting one called "Can (we) trust the koran", (we) calling support in proves your arguing to win a case against your very own xenophobia, which should be re titled "can i "Morgenite" trust ethnic minorities or arabs" since you forgot your own fathers and have based it all on your (morganstine's) racial ideologies to really attack the the very imaginary enemies you hate as a racist again.

BTW- Qur’anic texts have evolved in translations to modern Arabic, you can still get the classic arabic ones if you like to read in arabic, most are.
3-As for your racist ideologies, you mentioned in various posts that you believe all chinese people are the kindest race, you stated some could not be chinese because chinese are all, VERY RACIST INDEED.

4- In the topic Islam and Judaism, you raved on with insults because you could not bare anyone who says no to you with your long fake historical apotheosis on Judaism, where you claimed christianity to be from Judaism when indeed existed before Jesus and blended into roman paganism by Saul ( a Jew) who after years of murdering believers decided to change his name to Paul and even attempted to stop the cult Rome launched to counter attack Jews who Paul betrayed by breaking into sects a new religion of his own using Jesus.


5-After i posted a link to provide evidence to all this you tried to sidetrack it by claiming i was trying to take credit for it when i simply shared the link with you to help you see, but instead like a hypocrite, you insist on arguing for your cause, which was anti Semitic of-course and support ethnic cleansing in all religions in the middle east.


6-And it took over 4 pages of posts before you realized the topic was not the name of God, and for you to finally of found a link in the defense of the Talmud but it also admitted to containing Anti Semiticism in the Talmud itself but stated that the Rabbi who wrote these things was doing it out of humor, yet its there...and you have not a proof top deny it.

I can go on MorganSTINE, your opinions of a modern trend of typical Zionist media blended with new age wanna be eastern pop culture theories did not cover up your zen of philosophical lies for been racist.

Are you man enough to take back every thing you said or is it that you have a "GOD COMPLEX" here?

So far i posted information in my topics and with out even asking why anyone came to there concussions you attacked them for it, this could not be more biased and un helpful to learn anything from another.

The one thing a person does if they want to discuss something is share information not use it for there own ends, NO ONE IN THESE FORUMS TOOK YOUR FREEDOM AWAY BUT BUSH morgastine, HE PASSED LAWS TO INVADE YOUR LIFE AND YOUR FEARS, GET IT? ,
Osama was and will never be after you unless your part of the murder system which caused the deaths of over 10,000 children in Afghanistan, tortures and rapes and other crimes against humanity alike the nazis, and with the nazis it was nothing to do with 6 million or 1 single person, it is the fact that they murdered period so do NOT be fooled by the same types of people who put things between other people lives like oil, religion, money or abuse of power.

So either way, if you had not figured it all out yet, wether you like it or not, black or white, there is only one god and we all came from the same place, so you will be called up for your deeds (good or bad) and i for mine, but there could not be such a possible belief in any of your posts since you fail to see others as human beings here MORGANSTINE with all your the Frankenstein of Zionism media.

So, i wish you well and hope you find happiness someday, because anyone who has to use the tactics you do are not trying to prove anything but that they are haters trying to deceive others to invite them into the terror-dome in your xenophobic racist mind, this the curse of curses for your heart is sealed up from happiness and hard like steel, maybe its time you change, after all , this is what life is about.

G4-450
Sep 24, 2005, 11:00 PM
Scientology is the way to go. No one has refuted it yet. If only I had enough money to ascend the pyramid <sigh>.
From the looks of your avatar, you should discuss this further after growing up kid, science does not make better people, Hitler and his SS lost remember?

Just look at all the MORGANSTIENS from the labs of man made things and compare them to the universe, then you may understand God.

NeedKarma
Sep 25, 2005, 02:55 AM
From the looks of your avatar, you should discuss this further after growing up kid
Oh if you only knew. I am most likely older than you.

then you may understand God.
Don't think so.

G4-450
Sep 25, 2005, 04:32 AM
Oh if you only knew. I am most likely older than you. yeah, right... your a example of the people who repeat the same mistakes in history, not very original there KIDS , time to EVOLVE no? :)

Since when could age change a person in sin today from a person in sin 3000 years ago who also loved idols enough to consider them a God of Worship and willing to kill anyone or fight for them (money, cars, power etc. sins)?

No difference at all, they still lie in the hopes that they will win there argument to live recklessly on the bottle like babies but replaced with alcohol.

Now I remind you I believe people can have there free choice, but have you found anyone attacking you or others who idol worship and put there trust in everything BUT mother nature and God who created it? I have yet to even prove Mohammed did.

So it's the other way around, a reckless person will start the wars and destroy everything in a tantrum just like a baby for the things he or she depends on for happiness (money, power, sex etc etc. SINS), and they do this blindly with out been aware they are sick.


Don't think so.
I agree you do not understand too, the simpons are just a fragment of our imagination.

But not to surprise you with the cold truth, I am not asking you change for me, or going to lie like others around here with the Christmas wishful thinking to pacify stubborn sinners in hopes that one of these idols can be replaced with another to pass the pain of a false promise,

I will say though, that accepting the One True God for all humanity is like accepting that everything in the world Is God's and learning to live in it with others as yourself, think about this and where the word Peace comes from now, again only you and yourself can reach this conclusion and come out of the cartoon cocoon.

G4-450
Sep 25, 2005, 04:59 AM
"We" is God talking to other Gods?
Really

For a moment there you had us all fooled that you believed in ONE God and one God created all Humanity, but I guess the greed makes people like you come up with all kinds of arguments to divide humanity into the groups in your head like other racist like you.

Well we all learn something new every day don't we MORGANSTINE, the polytheists.


WE IN THE KORAN IS GOD and his Mighty ANGELS, SAME ANGELS MOSES INVOKED AND ALL THE PROPHETS, ESPECIALLY THE ANGEL KNOWN AS THEE HOLY SPIRIT "Gabriel" (JIBREEL in ARABIC)
[2.97] Say: Whoever is the enemy of Jibreel-- for surely he revealed it to your heart by Allah's command, verifying that which is before it and guidance and good news for the believers.
[2.98] Whoever is the enemy of Allah and His angels and His apostles and Jibreel and Meekaeel, so surely Allah is the enemy of the unbelievers.

This explains why you dabble on with other phlosophies which where based on single grouped out times and generations of people in short lived cultures.


BUT... its clear in the koran that if you believe in one God your on the right path, and for the hypocrites who have taken other Gods are promised the same curses sinners heard from the mouths of David and Jesus in aramaic tongue, maybe this is why they where scared to publish the gospels in the original languages they spoke, because they where probably Godless SUPERSTITIOUS SINNERS.

KORAN
[2.163] And your God is one God! there is no god but He; He is the Beneficent, the Merciful.

[4.155] Therefore, for their breaking their covenant and their disbelief in the communications of Allah and their killing the prophets wrongfully and their saying: Our hearts are covered; nay! Allah set a seal upon them owing to their unbelief, so they shall not believe except a few.
[4.156] And for their unbelief and for their having uttered against Marium a grievous calumny.
[4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Jesus (Isa) son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like JESUS/Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
[4.158] Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
[4.159] And there is not one of the followers of the Book (bible) but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he JESUS (Isa) shall be a witness against them.

[2.159] Surely those who conceal the clear proofs and the guidance that We revealed after We made it clear in the Book for men, these it is whom Allah shall curse, and those who curse shall curse them (too).
[2.161] Surely those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers, these it is on whom is the curse of Allah and the angels and men all

[3.61] But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars.


All these Chapters pointed to the sins people commimted as blasphemy, users, polythiesm and clearly also stated there place with God up after many chances to repent and why this life on earth is the place and only one to do it.

So, get over your race hate games MORGAN, its nothing to do with races aganst races, its all one GOD.

[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
[2.112] Yes! Whoever submits himself entirely to Allah and he is the doer of good (to others) he has his reward from his Lord, and there is no fear for him nor shall he grieve.

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/popekiss.jpg

See how there is only one God?

All you have to do is learn a semitic language and drop Latin which brings the name God into Gender properties like false Gods and Goddesses when God (ELOHIM or ALLAH) does not stand for (male or female) genders or and means the creator and sustainer of pre-ordeal energies which he is not anything onto his creation here on earth or out there in space.

Morganite
Sep 25, 2005, 07:49 AM
Bush is not the leader of my country. Guess again. So far you are batting 000!

"So far i posted information in my topics and with out even asking why anyone came to there concussions you attacked them for it, this could not be more biased and un helpful to learn anything from another."

Your concussions have affected your thinking.

Offering a different view of something is not 'attacking' but 'discussion.'


MORGANITE


:cool:

G4-450
Sep 25, 2005, 10:05 AM
Its more accurate then the Bible because its Supposed to Be God's word, through his angels and a prophet/messenger, not blended up with peoples words and interpretations.

Match the parts of the bible and you got a perfect match of the same God of the Koran, who even in the bible casted Terror into the hearts of evil doers and clearly stated that Good people do not have fear of death for they know there meeting with there lord is a good day not a terrifying one for going to hell.


Gen.35 [5] And they journeyed: and the terror of God was upon the cities that were round about them, and they did not pursue after the sons of Jacob.

Lev.26 [16] I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror , consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.

Deut.34 [12] And in all that mighty hand, and in all the great terror which Moses shewed in the sight of all Israel.

Job.6 [4] For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.

Jesus
"I say to you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.* As for my enemies who do not want me to reign over them, bring them here and kill them in my presence" (Luke 19:26-27).

"Do not think that I have come to send peace on Earth.* I did not come to send peace, but a sword.* I am sent to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law" (Matthew 10:34-35).

Unless these repent



Qu'ran

[5.39] But whoever repents after his iniquity and reforms (himself), then surely Allah will turn to him (mercifully); surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[25.71] And whoever repents and does good, he surely turns to Allah a (goodly) turning.

Luke.15
[7] Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.
[10] Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents."

My point is if you actually compare the bible with the Koran you will realize that the bible DID NOT SURVIVE all these centuries, 60+ thousand books from the bible have not been added, hands down.

But the God of the Koran is the same God of the Bible, only fighting was ordered when Mohammed was under attack several times and after this only against those who had broken the worlds first PEACE treaties they signed.

As for these changes your all talking about, they had been added into Islamic law after the Jews continued to break there treaties by been a threat to peace and practicing proxy wars as we have witenssed since the last century with Zionist and before with the Crusades.

These new islamic laws have been added after the evidence of the Koran, and treaties which where signed but breeched many times to demonstrate the rights for a islamic pro administration for all faiths to preserve peace.

Today you will see that Jews are still allowed to practice in places like Syria and Jordan but there are limits to this because "in the past" they paid there own tax rates for there own crime bills for there own lifestyles like christians with alcoholic problems which are the cause 90% (650,000 per year in the U.S.) of the Domestic Violence, Rapes and problems with woman Beating, divorces and other things which are the reason for higher taxes then Jews and Muslims and evidently a threat to Peace in the middle east which Islam kept with all faiths the longest, especially in Spain (800 years) until a ethnic cleansing of arab Jews, muslims or Christians took place with the crusades.

Today, we are witnesses against Israel for continuing to break there treaties since Zionists returned to Israel by crossing the borders into Christian and Muslim lands and committing crimes against humanity. its no wonder Islamic countries passed new laws with this evidence as a example that nothing has changed with them since the ethnic cleansing of the children of Israel who where liquidated into one tribe, Judah, the lost and cursed tribe who thinks getting this land will bring them closer to peace after breaking there agreements with there neighbors in 1945...

Morganite
Oct 7, 2005, 09:07 PM
For Boston Jews, actions speak louder than words
By Shmuel Rosner

Although the evenings have already turned a little cool, and it rained in the middle of the week, the famous turning of the leaves in New England is still not on view in the parks of Boston. But that isn't important. Eshato Kabeda and Noah Mentesnot would not have noticed it, anyhow.

They were rushed to the offices of the Jewish community in downtownBoston almost as soon as they got off the plane  and went right to work. They only arrived here on Tuesday, and by Thursday the job had to be finished.

Wearing a scruffy, beige windbreaker, Kabeda, who looks a little disheveled himself, makes his way into the conference room, and is followed by Mentesnot, who is carrying a blue backpack.

Nancy Kaufman is up and down and all around, flitting around them like quicksilver. They are the visitors from Haifa; and she is the host from the Boston community, the executive director of the Jewish Community Relations Council. She barely sits down before beginning to talk, rapid-fire.

"We've done a crummy job," she says. In her mind, the immigration of the Jews from Ethiopia, including the Falashmura, who are black, should have been completed long ago. She attributes the fact that Jews still remain there to an all-round feeble performance by everyone - everyone, including American Jewry, which hasn't made enough of an effort, including Israel, which dragged its feet. Kaufman has no problem saying that Israel has not acted properly. Nor does she have a problem with the fact that she, from her office in Boston, is promoting a policy whose results will be seen far, far away, in Israel.

Clearly, the issue is important to her. And the Boston Jewish community not only talks, but also does. A new project sponsored by Boston is to begin soon in its adopted city, Haifa, with the "full integration of the Ethiopian community in Israeli society," its ultimate goal, no less.

Some 750 Black Ethiopian families live in the city and another 150 will arrive, God willing, when the rest of the Falashmura immigrate to Israel. Kabeda and Mentesnot are the Haifa community representatives who have come to finalize the details of the plan, having already spent months working on the draft. The concluding meeting is scheduled for Thursday evening. Once there is a plan, the funding will be allocated and it will go into the execution stage. And the way Kaufman is speaking, it is hard to believe that it won't happen.

The outcome of the Falashmura story is known to all. There are only differences of opinion as to why it happened.

A few months ago, the Israeli government decided to bring to Israel the 18,000 Ethiopians still occupying the transit camps, which would afterward be closed. The Chief Rabbinate has already ruled that the would-be immigrants are Jews, despite having converted to Christianity.

The United Jewish Communities of North America (UJC) has already announced a major fund-raising campaign. The umbrella organization has pledged $100 million.

<snipp>


"No blacks allowed in Israel" I heard you say.

Huh?




MORGANITE



:)

G4-450
Oct 7, 2005, 10:52 PM
YUP, they where rejected several times and that is a fact, so why the hell would you post the same old fake jew story which was written AFTER these terrible racist discriminations?

Throughout most black societies today, there are Jews who are not accepted by the worldwide community of Rabbinic Jews. They are known as Black Jews, and the movement they represent is known as Black Judaism. Originating in the post-Civil War southern states, the early leaders of this movement were motivated by oppression and racism to migrate north. They came into contact with Rabbinic Jews and the Judaism they represented, but Black Jews and Black Judaism were rejected.


See Jesus attacked these same evil Rabinic ideas and stated that All man belongs to God and not that God belongs to Man, he further stated that if they do such crimes God will choose another nation which will keep his word from the children of Abraham, that nation is Islam, so whether you like it or not I or you have no say over this.

Judaism turned into a cult which supports paganism, many Jews admit that they only see rabbis once a year if at all.


But in Islam, they allow anyone to be muslim or to practice there own faith, providing that there community pays the taxes for there own systems if for example alcohol is legal and there crime ratio is so high as the u.S. with 600,000 rapes a year and 80% of them are alcohol related.

You lied again and you proved your a Zionist wanna be Jew, you will never be nearly a real Jew if your a zionist, this is because zionism's movements are rooted on racist motivations of religious fanaticsm, so it is like another name for nazi, KKK, on and on.

Many Ethiopians in their 20s and 30s, who were born in Israel or immigrated at a young age, admit that although they passed the military “melting pot” they still feel different and unwanted in Israelis’ hangouts and prefer to hang out in their own places. For many, going to black clubs is not in defiance or rebellion, as is often portrayed in the Israeli media, but because they are forbidden from going to “Israeli” clubs and not allowed to fit in. However, most of them admit that Ethiopian teenagers today have given up the attempt to belong and go to places for “Ethiopians only.”


“Where can they go?” asks Adamka. They see their older brothers still going to black nightclubs, so what can they do? I tried to fit in and go to Israelis’ places, but did not succeed.” He says Ethiopian youngsters today start going to black music clubs and dress as rappers from a young age, among other things as a result of MTV clubs.

“The young Ethiopians feel lost in Israeli society. They have served in the IDF and many go to university, yet they cannot integrate. Many stay to work within the community. They cannot manage to get out,” says Shabtai.

“The youngsters see their elder brothers go to the army, try to escape from their neighborhood, but cannot find work. Why should I make the effort, they think, and remain cloistered in their own society. They no longer want to fit in.”


So there faith has been rejected !

this was what Israelis said= Comments

Why should they be allowed? They belong in Ethiopia, not in Israel. They are only blacks who practice Judaism; they are NOT Jews. I think Israel has the right idea.
-------------------
As Benjamin Disraeli, dead prime minister of 19th Century Great Britain said: "Race is everything", and he was Jewish.
------------------
What does the Anti-Defamation League and The Southern Poverty Law Center have to say about Jewish racism against blacks? Funny, I didn't hear anything about this on ANY of the TV networks. What about all this brotherhood stuff? How come it only applies to honky?
-----------------
One of my best friends is Jewish (white/semitic variety) and lived for a year in Israel where she worked as a daycare worker/school tutor. She worked with a number of Ethiopian Jewish kids and said that, not only the kids, but she herself, would frequently get dirty looks when they went out in the street. She also said that (to a lesser degree)some Ashkenazic Jews looked down on Sephardic Jews. Very much a liberal, she was upset to see this because Jewish identity should be based on maternal lineage or conversion, not biology. "Racism", it appears, is everywhere.

----------------------
This is yet another example of why it is a huge mistake to import large numbers of African settlers into our country. I don't care if it's the US, Israel, Britain, or France: African immigrants are an infection.
---------------------
Paul Gottfried, a Jew, writes about the notorious double-standard of Jewish groups such as the ADL - he disapproves of them:

"I believe that American Zionists should be reconsidering their inconsistent positions, instead of ganging up on Judt. Abe Foxman and the Anti-Defamation League, for example, make themselves ridiculous and vulnerable when they denounce those who oppose the granting of drivers licenses in California to illegal immigrants as far-right anti-Semites—while they simultaneously defend Israel as a “Jewish state.”

Tony Judt’s politics are not mine. I believe that Israel should remain predominantly Jewish and that the U.S. and Europe should remain predominantly Euro-American—and I support whatever is necessary to achieve these objectives"

http://www.vdare.com/gottfried/zionists.htm
------------------------
to Say= "Jewish identity should be based on maternal lineage or conversion, not biology." means what?
------------------------
As a Jew, I have no problem with the above comments except for those which associate Zionists with multiculturists. All of the Zionists whom I know, including myself, are rightists on every issue. Please don't confuse Jewish liberals with Zionists. Liberals expend enormous amounts of energy on lobbying the US government to pressure Israel to give up land and make other concessions in the name of peace. Their solution is always surrender, whether here or in Israel. For much more, please see JTF.org.

Posted by Mike Berman at 4:51 PM on January 16
-------------------------
I am horrified at the racism black jews have to put up with in Israel. The only way to stop the oppression is to encourage Israel to open it's borders to Africa. Once you have oh lets say 100,000 black Africans per year immigrate to Israel the jews can be cured of their racism

Of course there maybe some bumps in the road to correcting Israeli racism. That's why racial inter-marriage between jews and African-Israelis should be encouraged . Think of all those nice Jewish girls having in their wombs a black baby. In a few generations when one thinks of a Jew one will think of someone with more or less african racial features , it brings a tear to my eye.

Ending Israeli racism through racial inter-marriage is a dream that we can accomplish and seeing that the jews were nice enough to launch similar programs in America and Europe I think it's the least we can do.

Posted by mark at 9:39 PM on January 16
---------------------------
Apparently Israel has none of the "civil rights" laws that burden the US and still has freedom of association. The story makes repeated reference to Ethiopians being barred from clubs but does not suggest that this is illegal.

Posted by seelow heights at 12:27 AM on January 17
---------------------------
It is very interesting how some posters felt that those Ethiopians should just stay in Ethiopia. Too bad whites didn't follow such advice when they savaged the cultures of Africa, India, China, you name it century after century.

Has anyone asked how those of Palestine felt about Jews moving in and setting up a country for themselves?

All this talk about crude hip-hop culture. What about the Punk Rock movement where spitting on the singer is a form of praise. The Death Metal movement and mosh-pits, the drugs, sex and rock and roll movement where groups like KISS brag about the thousands of women they bedded. Please. Think of your own short comings before you talk about others.

Posted by Ursula at 6:35 PM on January 20
------------------------------

Racism plays a big role in Zionist/Judaism today, and as I mentioned many times before from my work in Broadcast for the most powerful Jewish people in America, the problem is real and the public is simply going along so what can good people do to stop wars and crazy foregn policies like Bush's for oil?

Morganite
Oct 9, 2005, 05:37 AM
How can anyone believe anything you say? You make a statement that there are NO BLACKS IN ISRAEL I send incontrovertible proof that there are. You withdraw from your former 'are NO' position and struggle quantify, but you give your oinion without any facts.

There is a racist at work here, but it is not me. Put your own house in order.





MORGANITE


:eek:

G4-450
Oct 9, 2005, 01:20 PM
How can anyone believe anything you say? You make a statement that there are NO BLACKS IN ISRAEL I send incontrovertible proof that there are. You withdraw from your former 'are NO' position and struggle quantify, but you give your oinion without any facts.
Show me where is said blacks where not in Israel, your such a bigot and racist that you can not tell the difference between faith and diferent people becuase of your God Complex, read it again red neck, I said they where rejected by people for there faith and equal rights just like the Jews where rejected by Nazis in Germany verbally until they moved innocent people into death camps, if racist like this have it there way then peace would not make sense for them to claim they are religious, did you read carefully what Israelis said about collored Jews?


There is a racist at work here, ---> MORGANITE
:
Yeah there is a racist at work here, you already posted enough proof that your Pro zionists by your cheap hopes to claim that arabs and or muslims are dangerous, just Like HITLER with the jews, how much more racist can you get then this. and you got all this from believing liars like George Bush..

Every thing you stated about Islam has never been proven, as much as your claims to defend Judaism, in-fact, nothing you share here calls for Unity and is simply bias so why not prove your at-least not so attached to your posts here with yourself righteous ambitions?

It was coming to you Moraganite, some one had to slap you all over the place for taking advantage and posting in forums like everyone is a dummy, so why not just post the truth and come together in peace about all this, not enough blood shed for you yet?

Morganite
Oct 9, 2005, 03:53 PM
[QUOTE=G4-450 [/QUOTE]



Your mind is so mixed up that you can not think straight. You forget what you have written, then when it is brought to your attention, you can't remember it, and say I am lying.

I will leave you to stew in your own fetid juices.



MORGANITE



:eek:

G4-450
Oct 10, 2005, 10:04 AM
Ah ah, now you're a mind reader too, hmmmm, bet you can not tell your head from your elbow.

Since when did you become the right guy all the sudden, you're the only one who lies around here Mr.Pro Zionist with your bitter hatred for arabs of any faith (islam, christianity or Judaism), your attacking arabs is racist period.

Why not get a real job an work like everyone else, the one you have now online is only going to get you into more trouble then you can handle, as we see.

Interesting Logic you zionists have below:


Rabbi Yaacov Perrin said, "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." (NY Daily News, Feb. 28, 1994, p.6).


Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen (gentile) hits a Jew, the gentile must be killed.

Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.

Minor Tractates. Soferim 15, Rule 10. This is the saying of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai: Tob shebe goyyim harog ("Even the best of the gentiles should all be killed").

Sraelis annually take part in a national pilgrimage to the grave of Simon ben Yohai, to honor this rabbi who advocated the extermination of non-Jews. (Jewish Press, June 9, 1989, p. 56B).

Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg declared, "We have to recognize that Jewish blood and the blood of a goy are not the same thing." (NY Times, June 6, 1989, p.5).

Morganite
Oct 10, 2005, 08:29 PM
ah ah, now your a mind reader too, hmmmm, bet you can not tell your head from your elbow.

since when did you become the right guy all the sudden, your the only one who lies around here Mr.Pro Zionist with your bitter hatred for arabs of any faith (islam, christianity or Judaism), your attacking arabs is racist period.

why not get a real job an work like everyone else, the one you have now online is only gonna get you into more trouble then you can handle, as we see.

Interesting Logic you zionists have below:


Rabbi Yaacov Perrin said, "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." (NY Daily News, Feb. 28, 1994, p.6).


Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen (gentile) hits a Jew, the gentile must be killed.

Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.

Minor Tractates. Soferim 15, Rule 10. This is the saying of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai: Tob shebe goyyim harog ("Even the best of the gentiles should all be killed").

sraelis annually take part in a national pilgrimage to the grave of Simon ben Yohai, to honor this rabbi who advocated the extermination of non-Jews. (Jewish Press, June 9, 1989, p. 56B).

Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg declared, "We have to recognize that Jewish blood and the blood of a goy are not the same thing." (NY Times, June 6, 1989, p.5).




It sounds as if the Zionists, the Idiot Islamists, and the Nazis have a lot in common.

I have never met an Arab I didn't like. You are not an Arab. You are an apostate Muhammedan and your fate is told in the Koran.


:eek:

G4-450
Oct 11, 2005, 09:22 AM
I would like you to post a surah from the koran where it says that the fate of "G4 450" is told mister Morganstine.

So far your fate is all you that you have left and keep gambling in this life according to all scriptures, of-course you can always change before it is over.

:cool:

Morganite
Oct 11, 2005, 10:22 AM
I would like you to post a surah from the koran where it says that the fate of "G4 450" is told mister Morganstine.


This sura seals your fate because you betray Allah and the Koran, and because Islam is a prison with no way out. Once a person enters that prison, he cannot leave it alive.

"Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the apostates? Allah has cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom Allah has made to go astray? And he whom Allah has made to go astray, you will never find for him any way (of guidance). They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Aouliya (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah (to Muhammad). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold of) them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Aouliya (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them" (Surat An-Nisa 4:88,89).

This verse means that if a person says the Islamic Shahada: "I testify that there is no God but Allah, I testify that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah," he cannot change his mind. If he does change his mind, he will be executed or beheaded as has happened many times in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, and other Islamic countries.

Islam is a religion of intellectual censorship. In Islam the democratic right to free thought and individual decision concerning religious matters is totally denied. We have more than one example of that intellectual censorship.

The first is Salman Rushdie. Salman Rushdie was born to a Muslim family in Bombay, India, but has spent much of his life in London, England. He wrote a book entitled The Satanic Verses. Muslims thought this book was an insult to the Prophet Muhammad and Islam so Ayatollah Ruholla Khomeini issued an order to assassinate Rushdie and promised $5 million to the one whom would kill him. Khomeini, Iran's spiritual leader at that time, said in a statement read for him on the radio in 1989: "Anyone who died attempting to kill Rushdie, he promised, would go straight to paradise."

The second is Dr. Farag Foda, the great author who was assassinated in Cairo, Egypt in 1993 because he wrote many books exposing the true face of Islam and Islamic society. He was accused of being an apostate Muslim and was shot and killed in front of his son.

The third is Professor Nasr Hamid Abu Zeid, who was accused of being an apostate Muslim because of his books about the Koran. The court in Egypt ruled that he must divorce his wife, Ibtihal Younes. He fled from Egypt and is now living with his wife in Holland.

The fourth is the well-known Egyptian writer Naguib Mahfouz, who became the first Egyptian to win the Nobel Prize in Literature. Muslims stabbed him in front of his house in an attempt to kill him. The man is over 80 years old. They wanted to kill him because they thought that he insulted Muhammad in his novel, "The Children of Gabalawi."

It is of great importance for any American or any secular Muslim to know what kind of society he or she will live in if fundamentalist Muslims rule. The Taliban, Afghanistan's former ruling Islamic movement, is an example of this extremist militant faith, which is based on a literal interpretation of the Koran, wjch shows in their way of life.

In Afghanistan under the Taliban, any woman who showed more than her eyes was savagely flogged by so-called men. In Saudi Arabia, a woman is banned from driving a car or from walking down the street without covering all of her body except for her eyes. Where is the freedom?

Christians who went to Afghanistan to help the poor and the sick with food and medicine were arrested and jailed because they had Bibles and Christian cassette tapes.

In Saudi Arabia Christians are banned from holding worship services let alone building a church.

In the meantime, Muslims are taking advantage of the American freedom and building hundreds of mosques on American soil. Where's the balance?

In Sudan more than one million Christians were killed by the Islamic government in Khartoum.

In Algeria, thousands of Muslims were slaughtered by militant Muslims with no regard for life. This is barbarism.

Today we are hearing on radio and television many Muslim clerics saying that Islam means peace. But the word Islam means "submission" and a Muslim is one who is in submission to Allah.

Their goal as stated in the Koran is to bring the entire world into submission to Allah and the Koran and have a global Islamic empire.

"Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the apostates?

Allah has cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom Allah has made to go astray?

And he whom Allah has made to go astray, you will never find for him any way (of guidance). They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another).

So take not Aouliya (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah (to Muhammad).

But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold of) them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Aouliya (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them" (Surat An-Nisa 4:88,89).

What insane barbarism!

You G4-450, who do not even have an Arabic name, but is named for an infidel computer, have abandoned the principles if Islam and teach an aberration of it, so you are an apostate, and I issue a Fatwah upon your head that can never be rescinded.



MULLAH MORGANITE (ABDULLAH)

NeedKarma
Oct 11, 2005, 10:31 AM
Wow, the above makes the whole catholic priest/pedophile thing seem like a small blip on the radar - no wonder the Vatican had no issue with covering it up. Then of course there are the crusades...

Seems like the safest course is to eschew organized religion and just be a good person and treat others well.

G4-450
Oct 11, 2005, 10:37 AM
Wow, the above makes the whole catholic priest/pedophile thing seem like a small blip on the radar - no wonder the Vatican had no issue with covering it up. Then of course there are the crusades ...

Seems like the safest course is to eschew organized religion and just be a good person and treat others well.

Well , with out taking any side here, honestly, Morganite does sound like the very people he hates, the muslims. in fact he insists to convert everyone to a muslim now.

Just read the whole post he made above himself with out any idea about the koran but his motivated religious fanatical intentions, I have to say your right, be good and be happy.

Notice how he hates muslims and islam for been the ones to keep the abrahamic faith as it was BEFORE organized religions started.

But that will take more time to understand. yet I agree that you have to have your free choices to love God and not the way Morganite preaches lies about others.

G4-450
Oct 11, 2005, 10:49 AM
This sura seals your fate because you betray Allah and the Koran, and because Islam is a prison with no way out. Once a person enters that prison, he cannot leave it alive.

"Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the apostates? Allah has cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom Allah has made to go astray? And he whom Allah has made to go astray, you will never find for him any way (of guidance). They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Aouliya (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah (to Muhammad). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold of) them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Aouliya (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them" (Surat An-Nisa 4:88,89).

This verse means that if a person says the Islamic Shahada: "I testify that there is no God but Allah, I testify that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah," he cannot change his mind. If he does change his mind, he will be executed or beheaded as has happened many times in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, and other Islamic countries.

Islam is a religion of intellectual censorship. In Islam the democratic right to free thought and individual decision concerning religious matters is totally denied. We have more than one example of that intellectual censorship.
Hmm, I think if the ALLAH of the koran is the ALLAH of the bible then Jihad sounds like this in aramaic,

Jihad started with the Bible!

"All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman. (From the NIV Bible, 2 Chronicles 15:13)"

"Now kill all the boys . And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. (Numbers 31:17-18)"

It's odd how one of the 10 Commandments says "Thou shalt not kill (or murder). (Exodus 20:13)", and yet, the bible ordered the killing of innocent children and non-virgin girls by the mass!



"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. (The Noble Quran, 2:190)"
The so-called "Jihad" Noble Verses came for specific times and places. They don't apply for all times and everybody! I can't slay you, a non-Muslim, just because you're not a Muslim. The pagan Arabs were very hostile people and only knew the sword as an answer. Many wars were imposed upon the Muslims, and thus, it is only normal and natural to find Noble Verses that deal with these specific hostile situations. But the Ultimate and Overall Message of the Noble Quran is PEACE, as clearly proven in the Noble Verses above.

SUICIDE BOMBINGS IN THE BIBLE
"Samson said to the servant who held his hand, "Put me where I can feel the pillars that support the temple, so that I may lean against them." Now the temple was crowded with men and women; all the rulers of the Philistines were there, and on the roof were about three thousand men and women watching Samson perform. Then Samson prayed to the LORD, "O Sovereign LORD , remember me. O God, please strengthen me just once more, and let me with one blow get revenge on the Philistines for my two eyes." Then Samson reached toward the two central pillars on which the temple stood. Bracing himself against them, his right hand on the one and his left hand on the other, Samson said, "Let me die with the Philistines!" Then he pushed with all his might, and down came the temple on the rulers and all the people in it. Thus he killed many more when he died than while he lived. (From the NIV Bible, Judges 16:26-30)"



The first is Salman Rushdie. Salman Rushdie was born to a Muslim family in Bombay, India, but has spent much of his life in London, England. He wrote a book entitled The Satanic Verses. Muslims thought this book was an insult to the Prophet Muhammad and Islam so Ayatollah Ruholla Khomeini issued an order to assassinate Rushdie and promised $5 million to the one whom would kill him. Khomeini, blah blah blah"

The second is Dr. Farag Foda, the great author who was assassinated in Cairo, Egypt in 1993 because he wrote many books exposing the true face of Islam and Islamic society. He was accused of being an apostate Muslim and was shot and killed in front of his son.

You forgot to mention that Rashid admitted that he found these documents and used them to publish a book, he just took advanatage of it and also tried to cover it up, Rashid lives in NY and fear of his life, if he did the same things to the Vaticin I am sure the same would be carrid out on his life.

You're a liar morganite, you know very well this man took advantage of using of zionist in th us to get a book published in america, where they lobby hatred against islam.



It is of great importance for any American or any secular Muslim to know what kind of society he or she will live in if fundamentalist Muslims rule. The Taliban, Afghanistan's former ruling Islamic movement, is an example of this extremist militant faith, which is based on a literal interpretation of the Koran, wjch shows in their way of life.

In Afghanistan under the Taliban, any woman who showed more than her eyes was savagely flogged by so-called men. In Saudi Arabia, a woman is banned from driving a car or from walking down the street without covering all of her body except for her eyes. Where is the freedom?

Christians who went to Afghanistan to help the poor and the sick with food and medicine were arrested and jailed because they had Bibles and Christian cassette tapes.

In Saudi Arabia Christians are banned from holding worship services let alone building a church.

In the meantime, Muslims are taking advantage of the American freedom and building hundreds of mosques on American soil. Where's the balance? please post proof, and first the answer to my previous post, you hypocrite...

AND, again--_> your been a racist Zionists here, you mean to say there are no christian (nazi) or jewish(zionist) fundamentalists who wish death and even have the world hostage today? Ni try hypocrite, I can't make up my mind what you are but you sure isn't a honest person,

MULLAH MORGANITE (ABDULLAH)[/QUOTE]

MULLAH MORGANITE (ABDULLAH) ha ha ha ha ha ha, when all else fails you pretending to be a muslim, I never hear any muslim say the Chinese race is the best race on earth, basically this is what you said a few times before, claiming I could not of been chinese and sit around to listen and agree with you like they do, so kind are they, maybe you should ask them how they feel about you, liar.
:cool:

Morganite
Oct 11, 2005, 03:44 PM
MULLAH MORGANITE (ABDULLAH) ha ha ha ha ha ha, when all else fails you pretending to be a muslim, i never hear any muslim say the Chinese race is the best race on earth, basically this is what you said a few times before, claiming i could not of been chinese and sit around to listen and agree with you like they do, so kind are they, maybe you should ask them how they feel about you, liar.
:cool:


I do not claim to be Muslim.

Mullah is Arabic for a male religious teacher. A Mullah is a man recognized as having a religious education, similar in most ways to a Rabbi in Judaism.

In India, the Middle East, and North Afica Mullah denotes a Muslim teacher or reader of the Koran, and traditionally an expert on Islamic law. But I live in none of those places

The basic meaning is a title of respect for one learned in the sacred law.


So, wrong again. :eek:

G4-450
Oct 11, 2005, 10:44 PM
Ha ha ha

India has tons of Muslims silly boy, saying someone is wrong again, get a clue and stop crying about your short comings.

Are you going to ever make up your mind about living in peace with others or do you still support war criminals like Bush who defends torture and murder after lying that it ever happened for years. :eek:

KAOSKTRL
Nov 7, 2005, 12:30 AM
Hard to believe India has anything left after the rape it went through with Islam,
Best estimate at this point is 80 million dead .
Islam has an unbeleiveable amount of blood on its hand from Yatribe to today unbroken mayhem Islam is an obvious fruad.
Islam is what happens when a street gang kills the cops (the meccans who decided to put and end to his pirate act)and grows without restraint.
Islam has no right to any legitimate complaint about anything any more then the crips or the bloods.

G4-450
Nov 7, 2005, 09:53 AM
Hard to believe India has anything left after the rape it went thru with Islam,
best estimate at this point is 80 million dead .
Islam has an unbeleiveable amount of blood on its hand from Yatribe to today unbroken mayhem Islam is an obvious fruad.
Islam is what happens when a street gang kills the cops (the meccans who decided to put and end to his pirate act)and grows without restraint.
Islam has no right to any legitamate complaint about anything any more then the crips or the bloods.

It is a internationally known fact that India was raped by the English colonialism, just like others who where religiously as well as mentally in the U.S. and around the world.

Islam freed the indians while the English murdered them in america, remember?

You post only reflects a poor judge of character, especially racists.

Fo changing you id and posting a 2nd me I would like to see where you will make a positive change, do you have any evidence other then what I posted? So far ISlam is the religion Jesus spoke about and invited people to, anyone who finds peace boring and rejects it is poisoned by evil and are not to be trusted.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 7, 2005, 10:48 AM
SIMPLY PUT YOU ARE AN IDIOT OR A LIAR
best estimate so far if 80 million hindus died at the hand of Islamic imperial jihad

Hinduism's losses

There is no official estimate of the total death toll of Hindus at the hands of Islam. A first glance at important testimonies by Muslim chroniclers suggests that, over 13 centuries and a territory as vast as the Subcontinent, Muslim Holy Warriors easily killed more Hindus than the 6 million of the Holocaust. Ferishtha lists several occasions when the Bahmani sultans in central India (1347-1528) killed a hundred thousand Hindus, which they set as a minimum goal whenever they felt like "punishing" the Hindus; and they were only a third-rank provincial dynasty. The biggest slaughters took place during the raids of Mahmud Ghaznavi (ca. 1000 CE); during the actual conquest of North India by Mohammed Ghori and his lieutenants (1192 ff.); and under the Delhi Sultanate (1206-1526). The Moghuls (1526-1857), even Babar and Aurangzeb, were fairly restrained tyrants by comparison. Prof. K.S. Lal once estimated that the Indian population declined by 50 million under the Sultanate, but that would be hard to substantiate; research into the magnitude of the damage Islam did to India is yet to start in right earnest.

Note that attempts are made to deny this history. In Indian schoolbooks and the media, an idyllic picture of Hindu-Muslim harmony in the pre-British period is propagated in outright contradiction with the testimony of the primary sources. Like Holocaust denial, this propaganda can be called negationism. The really daring negationists don't just deny the crimes against Hindus, they invert the picture and blame the Hindus themselves. Thus, it is routinely alleged that Hindus persecuted and destroyed Buddhism; in reality, Buddhist monasteries and universities flourished under Hindu rule, but their thousands of monks were killed by Ghori and his lieutenants.

Apart from actual killing, millions of Hindus disappeared by way of enslavement. After every conquest by a Muslim invader, slave markets in Bagdad and Samarkand were flooded with Hindus. Slaves were likely to die of hardship, e.g. the mountain range Hindu Koh, "Indian mountain", was renamed Hindu Kush, "Hindu-killer", when one cold night in the reign of Timur Lenk (1398-99), a hundred thousand Hindu slaves died there while on transport to Central Asia. Though Timur conquered Delhi from another Muslim ruler, he recorded in his journal that he made sure his pillaging soldiers spared the Muslim quarter, while in the Hindu areas, they took "twenty slaves each". Hindu slaves were converted to Islam, and when their descendants gained their freedom, they swelled the numbers of the Muslim community. It is a cruel twist of history that the Muslims who forced Partition on India were partly the progeny of Hindus enslaved by Islam.

http://sarvadharma.org/Museum/Articles/islamicgenocide.htm


How is this a continuation of

"The Prophet (Muhammad) said: 'Do not stone the adulteress who is pregnant until she has had her child.' After the birth she was put into a ditch up to her chest and the Prophet commanded them to stone her. Khalid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and he cursed her. The gentle Prophet prayed over her and she was buried."
(Hadith No. Muslim 682)

this?

John 8:7. So when they continued asking him, he lifted himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Let me guess, You don't follow hadith , and I take the Quran out of context and Im a bigot , right?


Fo changing you id and posting a 2nd me i would like to see where you will make a positive change
When your cat walks across your key board think about editing it so you at least give the appearance of lucidity .

KAOSKTRL
Nov 7, 2005, 10:57 AM
But that was history, we live in the modern world

Hindu, Enemy Of Islam'
These are extracts from government-sponsored textbooks approved by the National Curriculum Wing of the Federal Ministry of Education.

"Before the Arab conquest people were fed up with the teachings of Buddhists & Hindus." "Before Islam people lived in untold misery."

"European nations have been working during the past three centuries...to subjugate countries of the Muslim world."

Class IV

* The Muslims of Pakistan provided all facilities to the Hindus and the Sikhs who left for India. But the Hindus and the Sikhs looted the Muslims in India with both hands and they attacked their caravans, buses and railway trains. Therefore, about one million Muslims were martyred on their way to Pakistan.
* The Hindus treated the ancient population of the Indus Valley very badly. They set fire to their houses and butchered them.
* The religion of Hindus did not teach them good things, Hindus did not respect women.

Class V

* After the war of 1965, India with the help of Hindus living in East Pakistan, incited the people of East Pakistan against West Pakistanis. In December 1971, the Indians themselves also attacked East Pakistan. As a result... East Pakistan separated from us. We should all receive military training so that we can foil the designs of the enemy in the future.
* The Hindu has always been an enemy of Islam.

Class VI

* In the middle of the city of Deebal (Sindh), there was a Hindu temple. There was a flag hoisted on top of it. The Hindus believed that as long as the flag kept flying, nobody could harm them. Mohd bin Qasim found out about this... The Muslims began to catapult stones at the temple and at the flag, ultimately making it fall to the ground. The whole city became tumultuous and the Hindus lost heart. Some Muslims clambered up the walls of the temple and forced open the door. Qasim's army entered the city and after conquering it, announced peace. The Muslims treated the vanquished so well many Hindus converted to Islam.
* Before the Arab conquest the people were fed up with the teachings of Buddhists and Hindus.
* The foundation of the Hindu setup was based on injustice and cruelty.
* The Hindus who had always been opportunists cooperated with the British.
* The Hindus used to please the goddess Kali by slaughtering people of other religions.

Class VII

* Some Jewish tribes also lived in Arabia. They lent money to workers and peasants on high rates of interest and usurped their earnings. They held the whole society in their tight grip because of the ever-increasing compound interest.
* History has no parallel to the extremely kind treatment of the Christians by the Muslims. Still the Christian kingdoms of Europe were constantly trying to gain control of Jerusalem. This was the cause of the Crusades.
* European nations have been working during the past three centuries, through conspiracies or naked aggression, to subjugate countries of the Muslim world.

w Hindus always desired to crush the Muslims as a nation. Several attempts were made by the Hindus to erase Muslim culture and civilisation.
* The Hindus too wished to ruin Muslim civilisation and culture by destroying Urdu which has been closely associated with the Pakistan Movement.

Class VIII

* During the Khilafat Movement Hindus and Muslims were completely united and like brothers and they started to cooperate and live in peaceful togetherness. But as soon as this movement ended, Hindu hatred of the Muslim re-emerged.
* Before Islam people lived in untold misery all over the world.

Class IX

* The Hindus and the Muslims... could not amalgamate each other's way of life to become one nation.The main reason for this difference of cultures, civilisation and outlook was the religion of Islam which cannot be assimilated in any other system as it is based on the principle of... oneness of God... On the other hand, Hinduism is based on the concept of multiple Gods... There lies the difference between the Hindu and Muslim way of thinking.
* In connivance with the (British) government the Hindus started communal riots and caused loss of life and property.At the time of prayers the Hindus tortured the Muslims by playing music in front of the mosques. Before the commencement of classes the students saluted the portrait of Mahatma Gandhi and Muslim students were also forced to do so.
* Muslims promoted equality and social justice as against the division (created by) the (Hindu) caste system.

Class X

* (The ideology of) Pakistan... was a revolt against the prevailing system of India in which Hindu nationalism was imposed on the Muslims...
* Islam gives a message of peace and brotherhood... There is no such concept in Hinduism. Moreover Islam preaches brotherhood, equality and justice... On the other hand, the Hindu society is based on caste system which downgrades the entire mankind.
* After the establishment of Pakistan the Hindus and Sikhs created a day of doom for the Muslims in East Punjab.
* The Hindus were encouraged by the (British) government to force the Muslims to join the Congress.



(These extracts have been translated from Urdu which is the standard medium of instruction in government schools in Pakistan.)

KAOSKTRL
Nov 7, 2005, 11:01 AM
Sorry link for prior
http://acage.org/articles/?id=0088

Oh well that source is a hate site and bigotted, yak. Yak. Yak.
Here,s another.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/007743.php


August 19, 2005

Fitzgerald: Telling the truth about India

Jihad Watch's Hugh Fitzgerald sheds the light of truth on another subject about which there is a great deal of misinformation and disinformation: the treatment of Hindus (and Sikhs) by Muslims in India.

In sheer numbers, no group of Believers has suffered from Islam like the Hindus. It is amazing that few Indian-Americans, and few Indo-British, seem to know the history of their own ancestors and of what the Muslim conquest -- or perhaps one should say the Early Conquest and then the Later Conquest -- did to India, which Naipaul accurately described as a "wounded civilization." K. S. Lal writes of the 60-70 million Hindu victims murdered by their Muslim masters. When those Muslim masters ceased the mass killings, it was not out of any sense of mercy, but only to extort the jizya from people who would now be treated in a manner akin to Jews and Christians: dhimmis who would be allowed to live, but would be subject to a series of economic, political, and social disabilities that guaranteed a permanent status of degradation, humiliation, and physical insecurity. There are those who are morally indifferent to how the Mughal conquerors ruled, or to what happened to the Hindus (or the Sikhs). One thinks of the deplorable William Dalrymple (who is apparently not deplorable enough for the TLS to cease assigning him books to review on the subject) in his popular accounts of the luxury and love-intrigue at Mughal courts, or that other, more scholarly apologist for Islam, Francis Robinson. A number of factors have contributed to the indifference of Hindu intellectuals in India, and outside India, to the real nature of Islam. For the first, there is the common desire to ape the attitudes of so-called intellectuals in London and New York. It would not do, it does not do, to be too exercised about Islam. And of course, all things pertaining to Hindutva, to a sense of Indian nationalism connected to Hinduism, is mocked in the world, though it offers not the slightest threat or menace (unlike Islam) to anyone – anyone, that is, but the Muslims who continue to procreate and "gain market-share" as a percentage of the population in India, even as they harry or persecute or murder the Hindus and Sikhs in Pakistan and Bangladesh and, whenever they can, in Kashmir and elsewhere in India.

The astounding ignorance of Indian history that one finds in the Western world, and the supplanting of that history by the ooohing and aahing over Mughal emperors, should stick in everyone's craw. And some sympathetic attention to the claims of Hindus to Hindustan, and to the other non-Muslim populations in that most naturally tolerant of civilizations, should be given in Western universities and in the Western media. Even those newspapers in the Western world that are aimed at an Indian immigrant audience tend to pull their punches about Islam, or perhaps ignore the subject altogether (save in a few cases where the readership is definitely Hindu or Hindu and Sikh). This is done, one supposes, because the newspaper owners do not wish to alienate Muslim Indians in the West who might also read the paper, even if it means ignoring the major issue of our time and possibly of our century: the issue of the world-wide Jihad, from which Indian civilization suffered, and from which Hindus and Sikhs in Pakistan, Bangladesh, India itself (including Indian Kashmir), and now in Great Britain, also suffer. Hindus and Sikhs in Britain, having come to the West with its freedoms and opportunities, and who once here have not given any occasion for alarm or offense, now find themselves, thousands of miles from India, subject yet again to the implacable hatred and menace of Islam. Whenever an Indian (Hindu or Sikh) intellectual becomes known outside of India, he is quick to demonstrate his abhorrence of what is called "communalism" (which always means: those silly Hindus, and Sikhs, who may be too much attached to their own traditions and faiths, and of course are to be regarded with lack of sympathy should they dare to demonstrate any lack of sympathy themselves for Islam). One can see the phenomenon, for example, in the attitudes and rhetoric of Amartya Sen, who has written about the "democracy" within Islam. Sen’s is an entirely ahistorical piece that makes one wish to insist that this particular shoemaker should stick to his last profession, though now he appears to have decided to make shoes for the whole wide world.

Readers should go to the historians of India -- K. S. Lal, Sir Jahundath Sarkar, those who contributed to the 19th-century volume edited by the Englishmen Dowson and Elliot -- as well as to the modern non-Indian scholars Koenraad Elst and Francois Gautier. They will be surprised what they will learn about the history of India. They might even begin with that book with the old-fashioned title "The Wonder That Was India," about pre-Islamic India, written by A. L. Basham. Others might choose to look at the grim list of Hindu temples, thousands of them, destroyed by Muslims, a list compiled by Sita Ram Goel (another author, who along with Ram Swarup is regarded by many Bright Young Indian Things as simply beyond the pale -- and they make this judgment without ever having bothered to read his works), and published in two volumes.

Among those of Indian descent well-known to the outside world, and who cannot be ignored as "Hindu fanatics" (a term thrown around a good deal, even though the most fanatical of Hindus would not come close, in the menace that his worldview would present to non-Hindus, to what the mildest and most "moderate" of Muslims presents to non-Muslims), the only one to tell the truth about Islam has been V. S. Naipaul.

There should be many more.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 7, 2005, 11:02 AM
Various Islamic conquerors wreaked great havok upon the Hindu and Buddhist cultures of India. Mahmud of Ghazni swore to make war against the idolators every year of his life--he led about 17 invasions, and faithfully followed the Qur'anic directive to kill the idolators wherever they could be found. The slaughter he wrought at the temple of Somnath alone, at which Muslim chroniclers claim a toll of 50,000 Hindus, appoints him a place of infamy in Indian history. After his conquests of Varanasi, Ujjain, Maheshwar, Jwalamukhi, and Dwarka, not one temple was left standing. In Kangra, besides over 10,000 other temples destroyed by Mahmud:

* In the middle of the city there was a temple larger and finer than the rest, which can neither be described nor painted. The Sultan [Mahmud] was of the opinion that 200 years would have been required to build it. The idols included "five of red gold, each five yards high," with eyes formed of priceless jewels. The Sultan gave orders that all the temples should be burnt with naphtha and fire, and leveled with the ground.[VA Smith p207]

Tarikh-i-Yamini of Utbi, Mahmud’s court historian, recorded Mahmud's conquest of Thanesar in 1011:


* The blood of the infidels flowed so copiously [at Thanesar] that the stream was discoloured, notwithstanding its purity, and people were unable to drink it. The Sultan returned with plunder which is impossible to count. Praise he to Allah for the honour he bestows on Islam and Muslims.

And Nandana in 1013:


* The Sultan returned in the rear of immense booty, and slaves were so plentiful that they became very cheap and men of respectability in their native land were degraded by becoming slaves of common shopkeepers. But this is the goodness of Allah, who bestows honour on his own religion and degrades infidelity.

Mahaban 1018:


* The infidels deserted the fort and tried to cross the foaming river, but many of them were slain, taken or drowned. Nearly fifty thousand men were killed. The Sultan gave orders that all the temples should be burnt with naptha and fire, and levelled with the ground.

Kanuaj:


* In Kanauj there were nearly ten thousand temples. Many of the inhabitants of the place fled in consequence of witnessing the fate of their deaf and dumb idols. Those who did not fly were put to death. The Sultan gave his soldiers leave to plunder and take prisoners.

Shrawa:


* The Muslims paid no regard to the booty till they had satiated themselves with the slaughter of the infidels and worshippers of sun and fire. The friends of Allah searched the bodies of the slain for three days in order to obtain booty… The booty amounted in gold and silver, rubies and pearls nearly to three hundred thousand dirhams, and the number of prisoners may be conceived from the fact that each was sold for two to ten dirhams. These were afterwards taken to Ghazni and merchants came from distant cities to purchase them, so that the countries of Mawaraun-Nahr, Iraq and Khurasan were filled with them, and the fair and the dark, the rich and the poor, were commingled in one common slavery.


Faithfully following the example of the prophet, whom upon entering Mecca had the idols of the Kabaa smashed and ordered the Quray****es to destroy their own private idols, the various Muslim conquerors, from Qasim to Mahmud, Muhammad Ghuri, Firuz Shah, Timur, Akbar the Great, Aurangzeb and others, utterly devastated India's Hindu and Buddhist cultural heritage. The great wealth of India has led many apologists to claim that the Hindu conquests were not religious in nature, but fortunately for the rest of us the Islamic conquest were well documented by their undertakers. Timur speaks of his motivations for invading India:

* About this time there arose in my heart the desire to lead an expedition against the infidels, and to become a ghazi; for it had reached my ears that the slayer of infidels is ghazi, and if he is slain he becomes martyr. It was for this reason that I formed my resolution but I was undetermined in my mind whether I should direct my expedition against the infidels of China or against the infidels and polytheists of India. In this matter I sought an omen from the Koran and the verse to which I opened was this: 'O Prophet, make war upon the infidels and unbelievers, and treat them with severity'.


Thus, archeological evidence shows that thousands of mosques in the former Hindu empire are built on the foundations of, and, in many cases, from the debris of, demolished Hindu temples. Idols were smashed or mutilated and trampled on before Muslim places of worship, or, if they contained precious metals, were melted down and re-used. Some were turned into toilet seats or handed over to butchers to be used as weights. Sacred Hindu texts were defiled or burnt, and cows were slaughtered upon the temple sites so that Hindus could never use them again.

The magnitude of Muslim atrocities in India is so great that I grossly understimate their scope simply by attempting to describe them, particularly in one chapter of one book. By the sword of Islam, an entire civilization was destroyed and the number of dead easily number in the millions over several decades. The value of the booty--'jewels and unbored pearls and rubies, shining like sparks or like wine congealed with ice, and emeralds like fresh sprigs of myrtle, and diamonds in size and weight like pomegranates'[Smith p207]--can never be measured. As a result of [this] fanaticism, thousands of temples which had represented the art of India through a millennium were laid in ruins. We can never know, from looking at India today, what grandeur and beauty she once possessed. [Will Durant] This rich cultural heritage, like the foundations and materials of Hindu temples used to erect Muslim mosques, were highjacked by Islam. Indian mathemeticians conceived algebra and the number zero, which were translated to the Muslim world through its conquests, and then brought to the West through conquest; Islamic civilization now mistakenly receives credit for these innovations. India before Islam was one of the most advanced civilizations of all time.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 7, 2005, 11:03 AM
Are we clear now?

G4-450
Nov 7, 2005, 11:27 AM
:p ha ha ha LOL

Jihad watch is a Zionist racist website, the Pro Israel religious fanatical are no different then the Neo Nazis where about there Jew hatred,

Zionists are NOT "Jews" anymore then Nazis are not "Christians or Socialists".
This is the same for those who call themselves Egyptians and at the same time Muslims.

They are ignorant Racists who make up 99.9 percent of there stories, you better get out your history books before Hitler's clans suck you into there lies.

Here are some facts about where racism was invented;
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/talmudtruth.html

No wonder you where suckered by Bush.
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/bush_sosorry.gif

G4-450
Nov 7, 2005, 11:36 AM
Very funny guy

By the way,

The number zero came from the earliest arabs just like the wedding ring came from egypt, not from the muslims in the 9th century,

The number zero was re introduced by arab Hindus aka pakistan area before islam came around, and today all numbers are arabic which took europe about 500 years to accept after literally living in the dark ages, which they keep trying to go back into thanks to greedy leaders who know how to take advantage of the most inbred ignorant ethnic morans who also slept for that long while muslims told them the world was round.

And the above is a fine example of the lies these "jihad watch" web sites feed haters, if you like hatred start with facing your very own enemy with in... cause you have nothing to stand on but that your admitting to been a sore loser like the nazis who rather blamed the world when they cold not live in it while they had the hate disease.

I take it that you think you found peace in blame games?

Here is something you should consider to recognize who is been truthfull in there speech.Men of little or no faith always put down the law and tell better people what to do, in case of refusal they shower insults and injuries, no attention is to be paid to them. it is there way.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 7, 2005, 11:41 AM
:p ha ha ha LOL

Jihad watch is a Zionist racist website, the Pro Israel religious fanatical are no different then the Neo Nazis where about there Jew hatred,

Zionists are NOT "Jews" anymore then Nazis are not "Christians or Socialists".
This is the same for those who call themselves Egyptians and at the same time Muslims.

They are ignorant Racists who make up 99.9 percent of there stories, you better get out your history books before Hitler's clans suck you into there lies.

Here are some facts about where racism was invented;
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/talmudtruth.html

No wonder you where suckered by Bush.
http:.gif

Like I said I knew you would attack JW,
A site that like the drudge report they ,
Collect news and opinion pieces that ask

The Question
If Islam has been jihacked by extremist prove it with scripture ?

Guess what you can't because that is what I set out to prove 3 years ago.

False claims of racism and bigotry are simply not a suffciant answer for the genocide and subjegation coming from the Quran.

Muslims do not get to appropriate any innocence that goes to jews because of hitler and nazism ,
As muslims were fighting shoulder to shoulder
With nazis and were often the them Neimoller was talking about.
Islamic Script proves Islams guilt .


2.216. Jihâd (holy fighting in Allâh's Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims) though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allâh knows but you do not know.

2.217. They ask you concerning fighting in the Sacred Months (i.e. 1st, 7th, 11th and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar). Say, "Fighting therein is a great (transgression) but a greater (transgression) with Allâh is to prevent mankind from following the Way of Allâh, to disbelieve in Him, to prevent access to Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (at Makkah), and to drive out its inhabitants, and Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And they will never cease fighting you until they turn you back from your religion (Islâmic Monotheism) if they can. And whosoever of you turns back from his religion and dies as a disbeliever, then his deeds will be lost in this life and in the Hereafter, and they will be the dwellers of the Fire. They will abide therein forever."
http://infidels.kafirnation.com/english/surah2.html


Definitions of Tafsir on the Web:

* commentary
Islam.itl.org.uk/ahmadi/glossary.html

* Interpretation. Commentary or exegesis of whole or part of the Qur'an.
www.geocities.com/tatarkirim/islglos.html

* A tafsir (tafsīr تفسير, also transliterated tafseer, Arabic "explanation") is Qur'anic exegesis or commentary. Someone who writes tafsir is a mufassir (mufassir, plural mufassirīn).
En.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tafsir

Find definitions of Tafsir in: English French a



Tafsir Ibn Kathir

http://www.tafsir.com/Default.asp

Shirk is worse than Killing

Since Jihad involves killing and shedding the blood of men, Allah indicated that these men are committing disbelief in Allah, associating with Him (in the worship) and hindering from His path, and this is a much greater evil and more disastrous than killing. Abu Malik commented about what Allah said:

[وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ]

(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) Meaning what you (disbelievers) are committing is much worse than killing.'' Abu Al-`Aliyah, Mujahid, Sa`id bin Jubayr, `Ikrimah, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, Ad-Dahhak and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that what Allah said:

[وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ]

(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) "Shirk (polytheism) is worse than killing.''

G4-450
Nov 7, 2005, 12:05 PM
Your first big mistake is inventing arabic definitions, or are you trying to lie your way through?

Jihad means struggle, both inner and outer, the fighting for Allah's cause is ordained in the bible too, with the torah, the same laws in islam called the "Sharia" and called "Tenack" in Hebrew or simply the "Ten Commandments" , they where coded in a way no man could have corrupted them.

Same for the rest, your propagating lies kid. All the laws of the bible are the same laws in the Koran, only nothing was left out at all and clear, read it for yourself before going to racist websites.

Its simple, Muslims picked up where Jews left off worshiping according to them and to jesus, that is so simple but hard to believe for the people in deep sin who claim to be doing what the "Sharia" and called "Tenack" or Ten Commandments so to speak orders them to do, do you do this, if you do not then I would suggest you stay away from the subject cause it proves your legit hypocrite, think about it.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 7, 2005, 12:10 PM
Too anyone playing along at home,
Please make noet of all the documentation and scriptural evidance G4-450 uses to refute me
Are his posts attacks on me other people and websites or are they consice arguments that reveal how Isalam has been Hijacked and twistied by extremists?

Noble Qur’an 2:190 Footnote: “Jihad is holy fighting in Allah’s Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah’s Word is made superior (which means only Allah has the right to be worshiped), and Islam is propagated. By abandoning Jihad Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape from this duty, or does not fulfill this duty, dies as a hypocrite.”


The passage itself can be found in two places. It is on page 39 of the Noble Qur’an translation by Muhammad Khan and distributed by “King Fahd Complex for the Printing of the Holy Qur’an—The Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques. It is a footnote to Qur’an 2.190 and is designed to explain Jihad according to Allah as this is the first time the word is used.
And it can be found on page 580 of the Islamic University of Medina’s translation of Sahih al-Bukhari’s Hadith. There it opens Bukhari’s Book of Jihad.

In both cases, the Islamic scholars are condensing Allah’s and Muhammad’s teachings on Jihad to a single paragraph.

G$ did you noit get the memo at the bomb factory ?
Your Iman told you , "you cannot defend or promote Islam on the internet any more, the cat is out of the bag ,
islam is a pig in a poke!"

KAOSKTRL
Nov 7, 2005, 12:17 PM
Your first big mistake is inventing arabic definitions, or are you trying to lie your way through? Are you insane?


Jihad means struggle, both inner and outer, the fighting for Allah's cause is ordained in the bible too, with the torah, the same laws in islam called the "Sharia" and called "Tenack" in Hebrew or simply the "Ten Commandments" , they where coded in a way no man could have corrupted them.I provided the consice defination of the Jihad


Same for the rest, your propagating lies kid. All the laws of the bible are the same laws in the Koran, only nothing was left out at all and clear, read it for yourself before going to racist websites.

Its simple, Muslims picked up where Jews left off worshiping according to them and to jesus, that is so simple but hard to believe for the people in deep sin who claim to be doing what the "Sharia" and called "Tenack" or Ten Commandments so to speak orders them to do, do you do this, if you do not then I would suggest you stay away from the subject cause it proves your legit hypocrite, think about it.
YAK YAK YAK.
Irreleavent and untrue.
funny though
Stay away from the subject ?
Google my user name , roll up your're tent, and move on.
Your finished here.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 7, 2005, 12:54 PM
Im going to guess this one was an idiot,
http://img116.exs.cx/img116/1231/z7shysterical.gif

G4-450
Nov 7, 2005, 01:33 PM
Too anyone playing along at home,
please make noet of all the documentation and scriptural evidance G4-450 uses to refute me Are his posts attacks on me other people and websites or are they consice arguments that reveal how Isalam has been Hijacked and twistied by extremists?

Noble Qur’an 2:190 Footnote: “Jihad is holy fighting in Allah’s Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah’s Word is made superior (which means only Allah has the right to be worshiped), and Islam is propagated. By abandoning Jihad Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape from this duty, or does not fulfill this duty, dies as a hypocrite.”


The passage itself can be found in two places. It is on page 39 of the Noble Qur’an translation by Muhammad Khan and distributed by “King Fahd Complex for the Printing of the Holy Qur’an—The Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques. It is a footnote to Qur’an 2.190 and is designed to explain Jihad according to Allah as this is the first time the word is used.
And it can be found on page 580 of the Islamic University of Medina’s translation of Sahih al-Bukhari’s Hadith. There it opens Bukhari’s Book of Jihad.

In both cases, the Islamic scholars are condensing Allah’s and Muhammad’s teachings on Jihad to a single paragraph.

G$ did you noit get the memo at the bomb factory ?
Your Iman told you , "you cannot defend or promote Islam on the internet any more, the cat is out of the bag , islam is a pig in a poke!"

WHAT :p You're a serious liar, you changed what the Koran said to lie, and your only fooling yourself, I can not imagine what your getting out of fooling yourself from the truth, its like a trap that will snatch your soul sooner or later.

And who are you referring to take note here, your imagionary friends?
And what Imam are you referring to, did you see me going to one?
You have ben making things up and lying all alone.

The "Jihad watch" web site does not tell you that Jihad means struggle in order to be clement, this is within and or against evil ones who attack you out of greed, as in for oil or you homes like pirates.

Jihad does NOT mean fighting as in attacking at all, just struggle. even says to stop if they surrender.

On the other hand, take a note cuase you may need to get away from the people you surrounded yourself with, they are NOT telling you the truth and they are no different from the nazis who also where skitzo paranoid and threw little jewish children into ovens, in fact they are still at large.

Read for yourself,
[2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. (((((Fight if attacked is what this means and stop when its over))))

[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers. ((((same thing again))))

[2.192] But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors. ((((if they desist, stop! ))))

This means your fighting for a rightious cuase, not for vengeance or attacking, or did you think good people should walk into ovens again lik ein Nazi Germany because they believe in God?

Jesus said; Matt.12 [50] For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven(((means Muslim)))), the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

[17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: ALLAH, but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Here is a commandment;
Though Shall Not Kill, --> Unless it is against tyrant Opressors who are blinded by there greed, this is Jihad outwardly in the open, eitherwise you committed the sin of suicide by allowing ones to kill you.

Jihad in the bible, where it comes from;
"Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. (Numbers 31:17-18)"

Maybe this is where you are confusing Jihad up with.

There is a big difference between Clement of evil people attacking and looting the innocent's land and goods from the clement as in Hitler's racist "New World Order" and "struggle" and "Nimp Kumpf" that the Bush legacy is talking about when they mean ethnic cleansing the world.

Do you agree with standing up and protecting the innocent or do you prefer to surrender to people hostile to you, and throw you out of your home like the nazis did to the jews?

Your just paranoid of ethnicity, period. you need to get out and learn how to live in the world as it is. and accept it that you're a human just like all of us.

As I understand you, you basically;
1--back up the EVIL bad people in your post
AND
2 --you are saying that the good guys should not fight in there defense if attacked..

Again, Of all 3 Abrahamic faiths, Islam waas the first and last and took off where the children of Israel lost to the tribe of Judah.

You lost your argument for literally lying about islam, especially stating that jihad s apillar; the 5 pillars of islam are

1 Shahada, means making a testimony to the one true god of all prophets up until Mohamed, and that there are no other gods but god, the god of abraham,

2 Salat, means prayer

3 ramadan, the holy month of fasting

4 zakat, the tax to the poor

5 hajr, going to mecca

and guess what.! they are not all mandatory, God accepts everything from his believers been that they are sincere in there oaths, not like the people who break them like you, I recommend you change and heal rather then feeding off the xenophobic paranoa.

G4-450
Nov 7, 2005, 01:58 PM
Im going to guess i am a idiot skinhead, i like to lie

http://img116.exs.cx/img116/1231/z7shysterical.gif

:p You totally lied and made things up,
Why did you not copy and paste exactly what you wanted to post from the koran rather then adding little tricks to the texts , and you did not prove one single thing but that you are a anti semetic xenophobic nazi hater, get a life will yah :D

EXPOSED long ago

If you have a leg to stand up on then get the truth, cause the only people who swallow your lies are the real idiots, and anyone who does that is not trustworthy like you, and I take it you swallowed Bush's real deeep ?

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/bush_twofaces.jpg

We know who you voted for,
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/bush_dailymirror_dumb_people.jpg

KAOSKTRL
Nov 7, 2005, 02:48 PM
There is little to say If you are going to put yourself above Sahih Bukahari and the care takers of the two great mosques as a higher authority of all things Islamic.
You did get one thing right I hate Nazism but even some Nazis were good people.
I having a hard time finding a descent muslims who by the way were allies of Hitler’s.
Here is a nice little Fatwa

Question;
Many muslims priase Hitler for killing jews, shoud they or are they wrong.
Answer;
Islam has ordered us Muslims to fight against the enemies of Islam and not be like the Jew and make other nations fight their wars. We as Muslims may share in Hitlers hatered for the Jews but we cannot praise him for the manner in which he went about killing the jews (if the history books are correct). But rather we as Muslims are governed by the Shariah which prohibit the killing the old and the weak etc.

And Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai
FATWA DEPT.

You can find one of the most respected exegesis of the Quran here
http://www.tafsir.com/Default.asp
And here is a vetted none doctored Quran that I use.
http://infidels.kafirnation.com/english/Default.html
You can obtain an identical copy from http://www.road-to-heaven.com/
And it only gets worse for you from here.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 7, 2005, 03:05 PM
[2.192] But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors. ((((if they desist, stop! ))))

The is the tasfir on the Verse you are having a fit about, it say's

The Order to fight until there is no more Fitnah

Allah then commanded fighting the disbelievers when He said:

[حَتَّى لاَ تَكُونَ فِتْنَةٌ]

(... until there is no more Fitnah) meaning, Shirk. This is the opinion of Ibn `Abbas, Abu Al-`Aliyah, Mujahid, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, Ar-Rabi`, Muqatil bin Hayyan, As-Suddi and Zayd bin Aslam.

Allah's statement:

[وَيَكُونَ الدِّينُ للَّهِ]

(... and the religion (all and every kind of worship) is for Allah (Alone).) means, `So that the religion of Allah becomes dominant above all other religions.' It is reported in the Two Sahihs that Abu Musa Al-Ash`ari said: "The Prophet was asked, `O Allah's Messenger! A man fights out of bravery, and another fights to show off, which of them fights in the cause of Allah' The Prophet said:

«مَنْ قَاتَلَ لِتَكُونَ كَلِمَةُ اللهِ هِيَ الْعُلْيا فَهُوَ فِي سَبِيلِ الله»

(He who fights so that Allah's Word is superior, then he fights in Allah's cause.) In addition, it is reported in the Two Sahihs:

«أُمِرْتُ أَنْ أُقَاتِلَ النَّاسَ حَتَّى يَقُولُوا لَا إِلهَ إلَّا اللهُ، فَإِذَا قَالُوهَا عَصَمُوا مِنِّي دِمَاءَهُم وَأَمْوَالَهُمْ إلَّا بِحَقِّهَا وَحِسَابُهُمْ عَلَى الله»

(I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight the people until they proclaim, `None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'. Whoever said it, then he will save his life and property from me, except for cases of the law, and their account will be with Allah.)

Allah's statement:

[فَإِنِ انتَهَواْ فَلاَ عُدْوَنَ إِلاَّ عَلَى الظَّـلِمِينَ]

(But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against the wrongdoers.) indicates that, `If they stop their Shirk and fighting the believers, then cease warfare against them. Whoever fights them afterwards will be committing an injustice. Verily aggression can only be started against the unjust.' This is the meaning of Mujahid's statement that only combatants should be fought. Or, the meaning of the Ayah indicates that, `If they abandon their injustice, which is Shirk in this case, then do not start aggression against them afterwards.' The aggression here means retaliating and fighting them, just as Allah said:

[فَمَنِ اعْتَدَى عَلَيْكُمْ فَاعْتَدُواْ عَلَيْهِ بِمِثْلِ مَا اعْتَدَى عَلَيْكُمْ]

(Then whoever transgresses against you, you transgress likewise against him.) (2:194)

Similarly, Allah said:

[وَجَزَآءُ سَيِّئَةٍ سَيِّئَةٌ مِّثْلُهَا]

(The recompense for an evil is an evil like thereof.) (42:40), and:

[وَإِنْ عَاقَبْتُمْ فَعَاقِبُواْ بِمِثْلِ مَا عُوقِبْتُمْ بِهِ]

(And if you punish them, then punish them with the like of that with which you were afflicted. ) (16:126)

`Ikrimah and Qatadah stated, "The unjust person is he who refuses to proclaim, `There is no God worthy of worship except Allah'.''

Under Allah's statement:

[وَقَـتِلُوهُمْ حَتَّى لاَ تَكُونَ فِتْنَةٌ]

(And fight them until there is no more Fitnah) Al-Bukhari recorded that Nafi` said that two men came to Ibn `Umar during the conflict of Ibn Az-Zubayr and said to him, "The people have fallen into shortcomings and you are the son of `Umar and the Prophet's Companion. Hence, what prevents you from going out'' He said, "What prevents me is that Allah has for bidden shedding the blood of my (Muslim) brother.'' They said, "Did not Allah say:

[وَقَـتِلُوهُمْ حَتَّى لاَ تَكُونَ فِتْنَةٌ]

(And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah))'' He said, "We did fight until there was no more Fitnah and the religion became for Allah Alone. You want to fight until there is Fitnah and the religion becomes for other than Allah!''

`Uthman bin Salih added that a man came to Ibn `Umar and asked him, "O Abu `Abdur-Rahman! What made you perform Hajj one year and `Umrah another year and abandon Jihad in the cause of Allah, although you know how much He has encouraged performing it'' He said, "O my nephew! Islam is built on five (pillars): believing in Allah and His Messenger, the five daily prayers, fasting Ramadan, paying the Zakah and performing Hajj (pilgrimage) to the House.'' They said, "O Abu `Abdur-Rahman! Did you not hear what Allah said in His Book:

[وَإِن طَآئِفَتَانِ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ اقْتَتَلُواْ فَأَصْلِحُواْ بَيْنَهُمَا فَإِن بَغَتْ إِحْدَاهُمَا عَلَى الأُخْرَى فَقَـتِلُواْ الَّتِى تَبْغِى حَتَّى تَفِىءَ إِلَى أَمْرِ اللَّهِ]

(And if two parties (or groups) among the believers fall to fighting, then make peace between them both. But if one of them outrages against the other, then fight you (all) against the one that which outrages till it complies with the command of Allah.) (49:9) and:

[وَقَـتِلُوهُمْ حَتَّى لاَ تَكُونَ فِتْنَةٌ]

(And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief))

He said, "That we did during the time of Allah's Messenger when Islam was still weak and (the Muslim) man used to face trials in his religion, such as killing or torture. When Islam became stronger (and apparent), there was no more Fitnah.'' He asked, "What do you say about `Ali and `Uthman'' He said, "As for `Uthman, Allah has forgiven him. However, you hated the fact that Allah had forgiven him! As for `Ali, he is the cousin of Allah's Messenger and his son-in-law.'' He then pointed with his hand, saying, "This is where his house is located (meaning, `so close to the Prophet's house just as `Ali was so close to the Prophet himself').''

[الشَّهْرُ الْحَرَامُ بِالشَّهْرِ الْحَرَامِ وَالْحُرُمَـتُ قِصَاصٌ فَمَنِ اعْتَدَى عَلَيْكُمْ فَاعْتَدُواْ عَلَيْهِ بِمِثْلِ مَا اعْتَدَى عَلَيْكُمْ وَاتَّقُواْ اللَّهَ وَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّ اللَّهَ مَعَ الْمُتَّقِينَ ]

(194. The sacred month is for the sacred month, and for the prohibited things, there is the Law of equality (Qisas). Then whoever transgresses against you, you transgress likewise against him. And fear Allah, and know that Allah is with Al-Muttaqin.)

Next
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=5035

KAOSKTRL
Nov 7, 2005, 03:16 PM
Lets take a look at another fatwa whether you believe the Quran is a fraud documenting Mohammed justifying his crimes in the name of allah a rock idol given to his family from the sabians.
Or just lies made up along the way .
Its vercaity or lack their of aside ,
What does it say and what do those things
Look like when put into real life?

Islam Questions & Answers
www.islam-qa.com
Question Reference Number:: 13241
Title: Treatment of prisoners-of-war in Islam

Home > Islamic politics > Rulings on Jihaad >
Question:


How are prisoners of war treated in Islam?

Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

Islam is the religion of mercy and justice; it commands us to call others to the religion of Allaah in a kind and good manner, and to encourage people to enter this great religion.
If some people persist in rejecting the religion of Allaah and stand in the way of ruling by that which Allaah has revealed on earth, or they fight against the call to Allaah, then we give them the choice of three things:

Either they become Muslim; or if they refuse they pay the jizyah (whereby they pay a specified amount to the Muslims in return for being allowed to remain their land, and the Muslims undertake to protect them); or, if they refuse that, there is nothing left but the way which they themselves have chosen, which is fighting and dealing violently with those who have persecuted the Muslims and put obstacles in the path of the Islamic da’wah. In this way the Muslims will gain the upper hand and the enemies will be humiliated; then when we have killed and wounded many of them and gained the upper hand over them,
We may take prisoners and bind a bond firmly on them [cf. Muhammad 47:4], because in that case it is more in tune with the idea of mercy by choice (not because we are afraid of them); at that point war should not continue any longer than is necessary.
War in Islam should not be waged for the sole purpose of shedding blood or seeking vengeance.
If the Muslims capture them and take them to a place that has been prepared for them, they should not harm them or torture them with beatings, depriving them of food and water, leaving them out in the sun or the cold, burning them with fire, or putting covers over their mouths, ears and eyes and putting them in cages like animals.
Rather they should treat them with kindness and mercy, feed them well and encourage them to enter Islam.
Thumaamah ibn Athaal – the leader of Bani Haneefah – was brought (to Madeenah) as a prisoner and tied to one of the pillars of the mosque.
The Messenger(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came to him and said, “What do you think, O Thumaamah?” He said, “What I think, O Muhammad, is good.
If you kill me, you will kill one with blood on his hands – i.e., I will deserve to be killed because I have killed Muslims – and if you release me you will release one who will be grateful.
If you want money,then ask, and I will give you whatever you want.” The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) left him for three days, and each day he would come and ask him similar questions, and Thumaamah would give similar answers.
After the third day,
He commanded that he should be released. Thumaamah went to a stand of date-palms near the mosque where he bathed (did ghusl), then he came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and said, “I bear witness that there is no god except Allaah and I bear witness that Muhammad is the slave of Allaah and His Messenger.”
Then he said: “O Messenger of Allaah, by Allaah there was no one on earth whose face was more hateful to me than yours, but now your face is the most beloved of all faces to me.
By Allaah, there was no religion that was more hateful to me than your religion, but now your religion has become the most beloved of all religions to me.
By Allaah, there was no land more hateful to me than your land, but now your land has become the most beloved to me. Your cavalry captured me when I was on my way to perform ‘Umrah, so what do you think I should do?”
The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) congratulated him, and told him to go for ‘Umrah. When he came to Makkah, someone asked him, “Have you changed your religion?” He said, “No, but I have submitted with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and by Allaah you will not get a grain of wheat from al-Yamaamah unless the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) gives permission.”
Think about this story, may Allaah bless you, and how the kind treatment of Thumaamah led to his embracing Islam, which could not have happened were it not primarily by the grace of Allaah, and also the kind treatment which Thumaamah received.
In the Qur’aan, Allaah says of the righteous (interpretation of the meaning):
“And they give food, in spite of their love for it (or for the love of Him), to the Miskeen (the poor), the orphan, and the captive,
(Saying): ‘We feed you seeking Allaah’s Countenance only. We wish for no reward, nor thanks from you’”
[al-Insaan 76:8-9]
Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “Ibn ‘Abbaas said: in those days their prisoners were mushrikeen; on the day of Badr the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) commanded them to be kind to their prisoners, so they used to put them before themselves when it came to food…
Mujaahid said, this refers to the one who is detained, i.e., they would give food to these prisoners even though they themselves desired it and loved it.”
The ruling on tying up prisoners:
It is well known that if prisoners are able to escape they will not hesitate to do so, because they may be afraid of dying and they do not know what awaits them.

Hence the Muslims were commanded to tie up their prisoners and to tie their hands to their necks, lest they run away. This is something that still happens and is well known to all people.

The wisdom behind permitting the taking of prisoners is so as to weaken the enemy and ward off his evil by keeping him away from the battlefield so that he cannot be effective or play any role; it also creates a means of freeing Muslim prisoners by
Trading the prisoners whom we are holding.
Detaining prisoners

Prisoners should be detained until it is decided what is the best move. The ruler of the Muslims should detain prisoners until he decides what is in the Muslims’ best interests.

He may ransom them for money, or exchange them for Muslim prisoners, or release them for nothing in return, or distribute them among the Muslims as slaves, or kill the men, but not the women and children, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) forbade killing the latter.
The purpose behind detaining prisoners is so that the Muslims may be protected from their evil.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to enjoin the Muslims to treat prisoners well, whereas the Romans and those who came before them the Assyrians and Pharaohs, all used to put out their prisoners’ eyes with hot irons, and flay them alive, feeding their skins to dogs, such that the prisoners preferred death to life.

Ahkaam al-Sijn wa’l-Sujana’ wa Mu’aamalat al-Sujana’ fi’l-Islam by Hasan Abi’l-Ghuddah, 256 (www.islam-qa.com)

----------------------------------------------------
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G4-450
Nov 7, 2005, 03:36 PM
even some Nazis were good people.
Now your claiming to be good and take the credit for killing 6 million jews ?

It is illegal for anyone to say what you just said, to claim it was good to place people in ovens, judge them by appearance is denial of the holocaust and countable for imprisonment in many countries, even ISLAMIC ones.

Your clearly another racist nazi who feeds of hatred, you guys are all miserable schizophrenic xenophobes who need lots of help for your disease, its you that has a problem with living in this world with others.

And for your information, on a islamic level, muslims believe people like yourself are cursed for seeking sustanance in anything other then your own creator out of arrogance and then hurting innocent people for yourself hatred.



Islam has ordered us Muslims to fight against the enemies of Islam and not be like the Jew and make other nations fight their wars.
Now you're a muslim? since when... you did not even recognize the 5 pillars of islam, fighting is not even listed... and you also lie allot.


We as Muslims may share in Hitlers hatered for the Jews but we cannot praise him for the manner in which he went about killing the jews . Who is we?
I have not met one Muslim who backed up Hitler or his racist evil crimes against humanity,

The longest moments of peace in Jerusalem was during the islamic administration. this is because the first Peace treaties where order by ALLAH, and muslims promised to protect those who believed in Allah whether they where Jews, Muslims or christians, and this was a order.
[/QUOTE]



You can find one of the most respected exegesis of the Quran here.

:D You pointed to allot of places but have not one presented your facts on the table here, it is only your loss to think that you can turn a blind eye on your own lies and keep pretending no one knows what your doing,


It is clear that your not a muslim, and it is clear that your not a trustworthy person at all, no one hijacked islam, if anything Israel hijacked the U.S. of A.



Ariel Sharon:
"We control America"
"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
- Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001.


"Israel controls the United States Senate."
- Sen. William Fulbright

KAOSKTRL
Nov 7, 2005, 03:41 PM
Sorry People are smart enough to see
How stupid your replies are and how
They do not address the scripture.

Murder and Mayhem are part and parcel of Islam .
Jihad is visiting France.
They are carving out a new Gaza Strip.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 7, 2005, 03:56 PM
As for peace and equity under Islam it is a myth it never happened Dhimmitude is hatefull oppression
a snip from a two part essay
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4467
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4470
which is part of a much longer series of essay from this book
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1591023076?v=glance

by Andrew Bostom
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/authors.asp?ID=1056

Paroxysms of violent persecution erupted yet again in October-November 923 C.E. according to the patriarch of Alexandria, Sa’id b. Bitriq, as well as two Muslim chroniclers [summarized by Gil]: [63]

…the Muslims attacked…in Jerusalem on Palm Sunday (26 March 937) and set fire to the southern gates of Constantine’s church and to half of the exedra, whereupon the Church of the Calvary and the Church of the Resurrection collapsed…According to al-Makin and al-Maqrizi,

the Church of the Resurrection and the Church of the Calvary were also robbed of their treasures…It seems at the same time the Muslims attacked in Ascalon again. According to Yahya b. Sa’id, the assault was made on ‘the great church there, known by the name of Mary the Green.

They destroyed it and robbed it of all its contents and then set fire to it’…The bishop of Ascalon then left for Baghdad to get permission to rebuild the church, but he did not succeed. The church was left in ruins, for the Muslims who lived in Ascalon agreed amongst themselves that they would not allow it to be built again.

As to the bishop, he never returned to Ascalon and remained in Ramla until his death.

During the early 11th century period of al-Hakim’s reign, religious assaults and hostility intensified. As Gil notes, [64]

…the destruction of the churches at the Holy Sepulchre [1009 C.E.] marked the beginning of a whole series of acts of oppression against the Christian population, which according to reliable sources, extended to coercion to convert to Islam.

Yahya b. Sa’id’s description of the events surrounding the destruction of the Churches of the Holy Sepulchre is summarized by Gil: [65]

They dismantled the Church of the Resurrection to its very foundations, apart from what could not be destroyed or pulled up, and they also destroyed the Golgotha and the Church of St Constantine and all that they contained, as well as the sacred grave stones.

They even tried to dig up the graves and wipe out all traces of their existence. Indeed they broke and uprooted most of them. They also laid waste to a convent in the neighborhood…The authorities took all the other property belonging to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and its pious foundations and all its furnishings and treasures.

Citing both Muslim (al-Quda’i, Ibn Khallikan, and Ibn Al-Athir) and non-Muslim (Bar Hebraeus) sources, Gil also describes the edicts al-Hakim imposed upon the Christians and Jews beginning in August 1011 C.E.: [66]

They were ordered to wear black turbans. The Christians had to wear a cross the length of a cubit and weighing five ratls around their necks around their necks; the Jews were obliged to wear a block of wood of similar weight…they had to wear some distinguishing mark in the bath-houses, and finally al-Hakim decided that there were to be separate bath-houses for their use…Ibn Al-Athir conveys…

that al-Hakim ordered (after the destruction of the Chucrh of the Resurrection in Jerusalem…) that all the churches in the realm be destroyed, and this was done, and that the Jews and Christians were then to accept Islam, or emigrate to Byzantine lands.

They were also obliged to wear special distinguishing signs. Many converted…Bar Hebraeus speaks of thousands of churches which were destroyed in the Fatimid kingdom at that time; the decree regarding the wearing of the cross around the neck was also, he says, a means of pressuring the Christians to convert.

The wooden block the Jews were obliged to wear, had to be in the shape of a calf, as a reminder of the golden calf…

In a separate, focused analysis of the conditions of the dhimmis of Jerusalem, Gil concludes that during the early through the mid 11th century, the Jews suffered both economically and physically: [67] Economic conditions in Jerusalem were rather harsh, and the yeshiva often issued urgent appeals for aid. Besides, there were frequent acts of oppression on the part of the Muslim authorities.

Very often special heavy taxes were imposed, which aggravated the already precarious situation of both the yeshiva and the Jewish population of Jerusalem. It must be remembered that taxation in Jerusalem was probably different from that found in other parts of the Muslim world. It seems that Jews there had to pay a comprehensive lump sum for the whole Jewish population of the city, regardless of its numbers.

When the population decreased as a result of wars and Bedouin upheavals, the burden on each individual became heavier. In such situations the yeshiva was forced to borrow money, against heavy interest, from wealthy Muslims. When the time of repayment arrived, Jewish notables were in danger of being imprisoned, as the yeshiva was not in a position to accumulate the funds it had to return. In some cases people were actually incarcerated and it took a great deal of effort to collect the funds necessary for their release. An example is the letter written by Abraham, the son and main assistant of Solomon b. Yehuda, head of the yeshiva, to the sons of Mevasser, a family of parnasim of Fustat, asking them to keep their promise to send the aid in time to pay the kharaj. Muslim Turcoman rule of Palestine for the nearly three decades just prior to the Crusades (1071-1099 C.E.) was characterized by such unrelenting warfare and devastation, that an imminent “End of Days” atmosphere was engendered. [68]

For example, Gil describes one of Atsiz b. Awaq’s jihad campaigns in Syro-Palestine at around 1077 C.E.: [69] Then Atsiz advanced on Jerusalem from Damascus, placed the city under siege, and promised its inhabitants the aman; on this basis, the inhabitants opened the gates of the city to him. Atsiz prevailed over Jerusalem, completely ignoring his promise of aman, and went on a rampage.

He slaughtered 3,000 people there…He also conducted campaigns of annihilation against Ramla, until all its people had fled, and against Gaza, where he murdered the entire population. He likewise massacred people in al-’Arish and elsewhere and wrought endless havoc in Damascus, where only 3,000 of the original 500,000 inhabitants had remained, due to starvation and scarcity. Jaffa, too, was attacked, and its governor…fled from the town to Tyre, together with all the city’s inhabitants, while the walls of Jaffa were destroyed on Atsiz’ orders. A contemporary Russian chronicle cited by Gil indicates that the Turcomans,

Claims of hatered and bogotry are simply not an answer to the genocide and subjegation in the Quran.
Im sorry you will have to do better than "Im taking the Quran out of context",Im clearly not and I have given you the proof.
and "Im a bigot' those are not good enough arguments

G4-450
Nov 7, 2005, 10:17 PM
Sorry People are smart enough to see
how stupid your replies are like who and what people are you referring too?

Are you calling yourself stupid agan, you are the only one who replied remember :D and your not sticking to the topic.


and how they do not address the scripture.
who's scripture, yours?



Murder and Mayhem are part and parcel of Islam .
Islam means to submit to Peace in arabic, another slap again upside your inbred skinhead, bammm. are you the offspring of siblings or what?. And don't blame me for your own remarks when all you had to do was make the effort figure that out yourself before opening your mouth, your only feeding your own fire wood now.

So maybe your referring to what you want to "THINK" it means because you listen to those nazis who are actually "inbred morons" you call nice people who feed you fear and control your freedom by breeding you inside a terror dome.

Jihad is visiting France. :p oooh, I am scared, did you notice that the people rioting in france where NOT muslims at all too, anyone you know there egghead?


They are carving out a new Gaza Strip.
Yeah those Israelis today are indeed doing what your saying, they only broke there treaties and UN resolutions over 650+ times and yet no one even addressed that they are the threat to world peace.

They even launched a site called "Jihad Watch" to create a smokescreen for there propaganda machine in order cover it all up, but there Prime Minister already let the cat out of the bag.


- Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001.


Ariel Sharon:

"We control America"
"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."

This was publicly said of several times, not only once.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 8, 2005, 12:43 AM
Root of salam peace

s-l-m 495 to be safe, secure, protected, to surrender, to submit (al-salâm, islâm, salîm, muslim)

Muslim:C9B1N33 “The Prophet said: ‘I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prostration prayer, and pay Zakat. If they do it, their blood and property are protected.’

This is Islam, surrender or die.

Im not really talking to you,
Im talking to anyone who happens by.
I have already proven you're an idiot who lies either with a purpose or out of Ignoance I don't care which .I doesn't really make any difference to me your just another dead vampite, this is a what I do ,prove muslims are idiots and liars.
You were easy , you did it yourself.
Don't blame me for what Islam is. Im just the messenger.
Shirk is worse than Killing

Since Jihad involves killing and shedding the blood of men, Allah indicated that these men are committing disbelief in Allah, associating with Him (in the worship) and hindering from His path, and this is a much greater evil and more disastrous than killing. Abu Malik commented about what Allah said:

[وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ]

(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) Meaning what you (disbelievers) are committing is much worse than killing.'' Abu Al-`Aliyah, Mujahid, Sa`id bin Jubayr, `Ikrimah, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, Ad-Dahhak and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that what Allah said:

[وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ]

(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) "Shirk (polytheism) is worse than killing.''

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=5008

G4-450
Nov 8, 2005, 10:14 AM
Root of salam peace

s-l-m 495 to be safe, secure, protected, to surrender, to submit (al-salâm, islâm, salîm, muslim)

Muslim:C9B1N33 “The Prophet said: ‘I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prostration prayer, and pay Zakat. If they do it, their blood and property are protected.’
There is evidence that Mohammed ever propagated war to restore peace, or any such saying as you just posted., so where did you get this from or did you make it up in your head again?.

The koran is exactly the step by step story about what actually took place in mecca at that time, this is evidence of what trouble pagans will go through over there little fancies and the atrocities they committed against innocent people like real Jews, Christians and the muslims who knew what the kabah stood for and held there word against the pagans with Mohammed.

Your version sounds like a Zionists lie, because only Zionists racist say that Mohammed was a murder to instigate that the pagans the muslims defended themselves against where jews, and the jews where not arabs like abraham, but Zionists are just nazis disguised as believers., and the pagans where indeed not jews, infact jews had to fight them side by side with muslims for corrupting the kabah, they knew mohammed's ministry was to protect them, which he did.

The only question you need to ask these Zionists or ultra orthodox jews is if they claim to be fallowers of the religion of Abraham "THEN WHY DID THEY NOT DO WHAT MOHAMMED DID IF THEY KNEW BETTER"?, obviously these are liar hypocrites.,
And what about the real jews who believed in Mohammed's ministry and who prayed side by side with muslims and Christians at that time.

FACTS;
Mohammed was attacked and forced out of Mecca by his uncle's own so called tribe known as the "Quraysh", i can't spell it correctly but they where a pagan gang basically like many others who surrounded the kabah at that time which mohammed spoke out against for atrocities they committed.

The Quraysh out numbered the muslims by 900 to 300 and attacked them to kill them once and but they failed n there plot,

Upon failing, by tradition normally the winning tribe kills there enemies, and offspring., but Mohammed went straight to the Kabah, and demanded that non believers step down in peace or take the fall, this is recorded fact and the very reason Islam is still here today.


So if you are a blood thirsty die hard horror movie fan and your trying to tell me Islam threatens you, then you have to be the biggest joke of a hypocrite on earth, its clearly a paranoia problem on your part, stick around paranoids will make you one.

The rest of your post is also made up by you, you really need help, why are you so scared of peace? Is it a invested interests in oil shares?

KAOSKTRL
Nov 8, 2005, 10:55 AM
You are just to stupid for words
Have you ever heard of Hadth?
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/001.smt.html
Book 001, Number 0030:

It is reported on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah, and he who professed it was guaranteed the protection of his property and life on my behalf except for the right affairs rest with Allah.

Why was Mohammed run out of Mecca?
After hassling the **** out of the meccans for 13 years they finally offered him what he wanted ,
His birth right.
A founders share of the Haj and keys to the Kabba and all the prestige that came with that.
And he ,Caved in He proved Islam was a fraud by uttering the Satanic verses.
The meccans were horrified to learn Mohammed was a fraud and he had to leave town ,
We he started robbing the caravans a stealing and killing people you bet the meccans came after him
That's what you do with crimanals you go after him,

Unfortunately this time the good guys lost.
The result Is Mohameedism. "Islam"

http://www.answering-islam.org/Hahn/satanicverses.htm.

Read about the moments that mohammed decide to start stealing instead of begging for food and money

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mukto-mona/message/15316

And enjoy this very importent message

The Janus* face of Islam





By Abul Kasem



Islamists living in the infidel West are greatly alarmed and deeply perplexed after the September terrorist attack in America. After 9-11, many of them are doing overtime to search the 'goodies' from the Qur’an and are desperate to prove that Islam is a religion of unbound mercy to their host countries. They repeatedly quote a handful of these 'goldies' from the 'Meccan Verses' of the Qur’an, which are milder in tone than the ones descended on Medina. They carefully hide the unconscionable, intolerable, barbaric verses that litter the almost entire Qur’an by saying that 'those verses are out of context' and are not applicable to the infidels who have given them a chance for a better life and have accepted them as their own countrymen. Nothing can be worse than this hide and seek game of the Islamists living in the West. It is in the interest of all the non-Muslims (as well as the innocent Muslims who have very little knowledge about 'real Islam') that the truth must be told.



The message is very clear. Those Islamists living in the West quote those 'goodies' from the Qur’an are actually showing the dead 'Meccan Islam' to the vast majority of the ignorant non-Muslims (as well as half-informed Muslims) to camouflage the most up to date version of Islam; i.e. the living and breathing 'Medina Islam'. The strategies of these Islamists are also very clear:



· When in the West or in the land of the infidels or when weak, then practice 'Meccan Islam'.

· When in Islamic paradises or when the number of Muslims becomes sizable in an infidels land, then practice 'Medina Islam' or the 'real Islam'.



The sooner the humanity discovers this double face of Islam (a la Roman god Janus) the more quick will it be saved from the further catastrophe of the like of 9-11.



So, how do we know about the 'living and breathing Medina Islam'? Here is the answer.



In order to understand the 'real Islam' we must look at Qur’an in chronological order and not the way it is published. The chronological order shows which verses are canceled and which verses are replaced. It is meaningless to study and to explain Qur’an without the knowledge of its currency. Many verses in the Qur’an have been replaced by other verses.



The Qur’an itself talks about this in the following verses:



God does not abrogate any verse but substitutes something similar or better... 2:106

God removes (abrogates?) what He wills... 13:39

God substitutes one revelation with another; God has the mother of the Book... 16:101



These verses have created a lot of confusions among many. However, one thing is certain. It is this. God does change His mind and that that change can be very dramatic. In many cases, the matter of abrogation may involve life and death situation. So, it is extremely important (especially for the ignorant non-Muslims) to know which verses are applicable to them and which verses are not. The most important among these verses are the ones containing the provisions of fighting the infidels. There was a time when fighting was prohibited and there was (rather is) a time when fighting became compulsory.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 8, 2005, 10:56 AM
Those verses revealed in Mecca are considered to be the benign and non-violent type. There are 87 Meccan verse and 27 Medina verses (this may vary slightly but we shall work with these numbers). Thus, there are total 114 suras (or chapters) in Qur’an.



Medina verses contain the provisions of fighting because it was in Medina that Mohammad received the green light (read signal) from God to fight the infidels. So, as a guide we can conclude that the verses with a chronology order of 87 or more are the replacement for the Meccan verses regarding the treatment of the unbelievers.



In this short discourse, I shall try to elucidate how we can eliminate the confusion regarding the 'goodies' from the Islamists and the 'bashings' from the secularists/freethinkers/infidels.



Please note that the chronology order of the verses are indicated in bold ( ).



We can divide the propagation of Islam by Mohammad in four distinct phases. These phases are:



1. Peaceful persuasion

2. Fighting for defense

3. Limited attack

4. Open aggression





Phase 1: Peaceful persuasion stage.

Highlights

· A policy of peaceful co-existence with the pagans of Mecca.

· Give and take strategy with the pagans and the hypocrites.

· Jews and Christians (people of the Book) were considered as friends.

· Mohammad was almost like the Buddha preaching love, forgiveness, non-violence, and peace.

· Only the pagans of Mecca were considered as enemies (i.e. enemy list contains only one group).





Important verses



(Note: To save time and space I have given the main messages of the verses omitting the complete verses. Click HERE if you want to read the complete verses)



1. Be patient and bear with those who deny the truth; God will deal with them... 73:10, 11 (3)

2. 'To you is your religion, to me is mine'... 109:1- 6 (8)

3. Be patient with the evil doers... 38:15-17 (38)

4. Show patience to the pagans... 20:130 (42)

5. Don't be in a haste to fight... 19:83, 84 (44)

6. Be patient with the unbelievers (pagans); God's way will prevail... 20:134, 135 (45)

7. Mohammad is not sent to dispose of people's affairs... 17:54 (50)

8. God guides those whom He pleases; rewards will be in paradise... 10:25, 26 (51)

9. God will call into account the pagans who slander the Qur’an... 15:91-93 (54)

10. It is not God's job to see if people believe the truth or not... 6:104 (55)

11. Turn away from those rejecting faith and proclaim peace on them... 43:88, 89 (69)

12. Invite the unbelievers (pagans) with beautiful preaching and gracious arguments; be patient and do not retaliate... 16:125, 126 (70)

13. Leave the unbelievers (pagans) alone... 23:54 (74)

14. Repeal evil with good deeds... 23:96 (74)

15. Leave the unbelievers alone and wait in patience for God to punish them... 52:45, 47, 48 (76)

16. Mohammad is only a warner and not an enforcer... 67:26 (77)





Phase 2: Fighting for defense stage

Highlights

· Mohammed along with his handful followers migrated to Medina (622 AD). Some tribes of Medina accepted him as their leader.

· Mohammed and his gang started raids on passing caravans of the Meccans to acquire the wherewithal for survival.

· Mohammad won the battle of Badr (same year of migration i.e.622 AD) which bolstered his morale for further raids on Meccan caravans.

· After several years of stay in Medina, God gave Mohammad permission to launch defensive war.

· Enemies were the pagans of Mecca and the hypocrites (note: the enemy list includes two groups now).

KAOSKTRL
Nov 8, 2005, 10:56 AM
Important verses

1. Permission to fight for self defense is granted... 22:39-41 (105)

2. Rewards for Jihad is announced... 22:58 (105)





Phase 3: More defensively aggressive stage



Highlights

· Mohammad expected the Jews of Medina to accept him as their new Moses.

· The Jews rejected Mohammad as their new apostle.

· Mohammad included the Jews as his enemy and started to raid their sanctuaries.

· Enemies of Mohammad now were pagans, hypocrites, and the Jews (note: the enemy list now contains three).

· Mohammad was a little bit forgiving to the defeated Jews. He gave them a chance to live in their lands provided they paid him fifty percent of their agricultural produce of land.

· This way Mohammad acquired the means of a guaranteed livelihood for his horde of soldiers.

· The battle of Uhud (623 AD) was fought. Muslims suffered a severe beating in the battle.

· The battle of trench (625 AD) took place with huge loss of lives. Mohammad managed to win this battle.

· Treaty of Hudaibiya (626 AD) was signed with the pagans of Mecca ensuring ten years of peace. Mohammad was allowed to visit Kaba along with his followers during the pilgrimage season.

· Battle of Khaibar (627 AD) took place. The Jews lost the battle and surrendered unconditionally. Mohmmad ordered the beheading of around 700 adult male surrendered Jews and took 17 years old Jewess Safiya as a war booty and made her his wife.



Important verses

1. Forgive and overlook the unbelieving Jews; God will take care of them... 2:109 (87)

2. Fight defensively the Meccan pagans but if they cease hostility then stop fighting except for the oppressors... 2:190-194 (87)

3. Fighting against the Meccan pagans is prescribed after the passing of the month of pilgrimage (Zulhaj)... 2:216, 217 (87)

4. 'No compulsion in religion'; do not force the defeated enemy to embrace Islam; but they will be thrown in hell... 2:256, 257 (87)

5. Spoils of war belongs to God and Mohammad... 8:1 (88)

6. Strike terror in the hearts of the unbelievers; cut the necks and finger tips of those who oppose God and Mohammad... 8:12, 13 (88)

7. When you meet, the unbelievers in hostility attack them and never turn back from them. If you retreat except for a strategic reason then God will punish you and will send you to hell... 8:15-16 (88)

8. Keep on fighting until the persecution stops and Islam is established; one-fifth of booty belongs to God and Mohammad... 8:39-41 (88)

9. Obey Mohammad, be united and persevere in fighting... 8:45, 46 (88)

10. If you defeat the enemy then teach them with treachery and terror; if they ask for peace then give them peace... 8:57-61 (88)

11. Rouse the believers to fight with perseverance, God will help by increasing your strength... 8:65 (88)

12. Continue killing and do not take prisoners until the land is subdued then enjoy the war booty... 8:67-69 (88)

13. Martyr's sins are blotted out and they go to paradise... 3:157, 169-171, 195 (89)

14. Can take women captives as concubines in addition to wives... 33:50 (90)

15. There is a great reward for fighting against the friends of Satan... 4:74-78 (92)

16. Fight and rouse other believers to fight; God will restrain the fury of the unbelievers... 4:84 (92)

17. Kill the hypocrites if they turn renegades... 4:89 (92)

18. Higher grade for fighting for God... 4:95, 96 (92)

19. Guaranteed reward for fighting in the cause of God... 4:100 (92)

20. Whether a fighter kills or is killed, he is admitted in paradise to reside there permanently... 22:58, 59 (103)

21. Struggle for God's cause... 22:78 (103)

22. Can't lag behind in fighting for God... 48:15-16 (111)

23. Muslims are compassionate with each other but are strong to fight against the unbelievers... 48:29 (111)

KAOSKTRL
Nov 8, 2005, 10:57 AM
Phase 4: Offensive war or open declaration of attack to spread Islam



This phase is the stage of open offensive war against all the unbelievers. This phase started in 630 AD after Mohammad re-entered Mecca and captured Kaba from the pagans. This is the phase, which is currently valid for all Muslims.



Highlights

· Permission was granted by God to declare offensive war against all non-Muslims.

· Kill the pagans and humble the Jews and the Christians through Jizya tax.

· Tabuk expedition (late 630 AD) is the first war against the Christians.

· The world is divided into two houses, viz. House of Islam (Darul Islam) and the House of war (Darul Harb).

· All Muslims must fight to convert the Darul Harb into Darul Islam.

· This is the final teaching of Qur’an and so it is valid today and for future (that is, for eternity).

· Christians are included in the list of enemies (that is, the list now grows to four).

· Verse 9:5 (also called the verse of the sword) replaces all verses showing mercy, love, tolerance and forgiveness to all non-Muslims.



Important verses

1. Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable... 3:85 (89)

2. Kill (execute by beheading)/crucify/torture who opposes Mohammad... 5:33 (112)

3. Do not make friendship with the Jews and the Christians... 5:51 (112)

4. After giving four months notice break all treaties with the pagans that they did not keep; those treaties with the pagans that they kept are to be honored to their full term; in future make no more peace treaties with the pagans and kill all pagans who do not accept Islam... 9:1-6 (113)

5. Pagans who accept Islam are brothers of Muslims; those who break the agreement fight them... 9:11, 12, 14, 15 (113)

6. Do not make friend or seek protection from the unbelievers (includes pagans, hypocrites, Jews and the Christians)... 9:16 (113)

7. Unbelievers should not visit mosques or maintain the mosques of God; they will go to hell... 9:17 (113)

8. Those who do Jihad are the highest in rank; they will dwell in paradise... 9:19-22 (113)

9. The unbelievers are unclean, forbid them to enter Kaba... 9:28 (113)

10. Fight against the Jews and the Christians until they are subdued and pay the Jizya tax with submission; God's curse is on them... 9:29-31 (113)

11. If you do not fight in the cause of God with whatever you have got then God will punish you with a serious punishment... 9:38, 39, 41 (113)

12. If you fight for God then expect either martyrdom or paradise. The unbelievers can expect only punishment from God... 9:52 (113)

13. Those who are able to fight for God but do not do so are rejected by God... 9:90-96 (113)

14. Whether you slay or slain in Jihad, God has promised paradise for giving all in the cause of God... 9:111 (113)

15. Fight the unbelievers surrounding you... 9:122 (113)



So, what do we learn from the above list of Quranic verses? Are you confused? Of course you are. When the Islamists in the west are drumming, "Islam is peace. Islam is tolerance. Islam is merciful" who will not be confused by such contradictory statements! Let me tell you something. Actually there is no confusion whatsoever if we follow the simple rule on abrogation.



This simple doctrine of abrogation says that when there are confusions (i.e. contradictory statements in Qur’an), the later verses abrogate the former contradictory verses. The result is that only the latest category of verses remains valid without any doubt. That is why it is so important to know the chronological order of verses in Qur’an.



Let us hear from a modern translator (Yusuf Ali is too old) of the Qur’an and Hadith.



"So at first 'the fighting' was forbidden, then it was permitted and after that it was made obligatory against those who start 'the fighting' against you (Muslims) and against all those who worship others along with Allah".



(Ref. Introduction section of the English translation of Sahih Bukhari by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, Medina Islamic University).



In the same section Dr M. Muhsin Khan writes further



, "Then Allah revealed in Sura Bara’at (9) the order to discard (all) the obligations (covenants, etc.) and commanded the Muslims to fight against all the pagans as well as against the people of the scriptures (Jews and Christians) if they do not embrace Islam, till they pay the Jizya (a tax levied on the Jews and Christians who do not embrace Islam and are under the protection of an Islamic government) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued (9:29). So they (Muslims) were not permitted to abandon ‘the fighting’ against them (Pagans, Jews and Christians) and to reconcile with them and to suspend hostilities against them for an unlimited period while they are strong and have the possibility of fighting against them."



Jalaluddin Suyuti wrote Itqan fi 'ulum-il-Qur’an in 1497 AD. This book is the Tafsir (explanation) of Qur’an and is highly regarded. It is a compulsory reading for any one who wants to study Qur’an for its 'real meanings'. His another famous book is Istenbat al-Tanzeel. In this book



Suyuti wrote,"everything in the Qur’an about forgiveness is abrogated by verse 9:5".



Please read that above quote again if you are really serious about Islam. Remember that this verse has a chronology order of 113 (Remember? There are 114 suras in Qur’an).



Islamic apologists often quote the following verses to portray the mercy and forgiveness in Islam.



To you is your religion and to me is mine... 109:6

No compulsion in religion... 2:256

Turn away from those who join false gods with Allah... 15:94



Unfortunately, all those 'goodies' of Qur’an are canceled if we follow the Tafsir (explanation) of Suyuti and the doctrine of abrogation) regarding the verse of the sword (9:5).



Islamists love Ms. Karen Armstrong for her siding with them. Ms. Karen Armstrong writes to fool the non-Muslims in believing what George Bush is drumming, 'Islam is a peaceful religion'. Any one who has a workable knowledge on Islamic matters knows for sure that her writings are very misleading and does not tell the truth at all. When Ms. Karen Armstrong writes by quoting verse 2:190



"the only permissible war (in the Qur’an is one of self defense. Muslims must not begin hostilities", (Time magazine October 1, 2001)



She is clearly being dishonest in telling the truth about the phase four of Islamic war which calls all Muslims to declare a total war on the house of Harb (i.e. the infidels abodes). Phase four of Jihad is valid until all the people of the world are converted to Islam. Thus, today's Muslims are in perpetual war with the infidels whether they (the Muslims) are in an Islamic paradise like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh (recently included, previously not), Iran... or in infidel lands like USA, UK, Canada, France... etc.



Here is another quote from Alsaylu Jarar (4:518-519) by Al-Shawkani. Shawkani is a famous writer on Islamic matters. His writings are authoritative and are used by the Jihadis to justify their merciless actions.

"Islam is unanimous about fighting the unbelievers and forcing them to Islam or submitting and paying Jizya tax (protection money for the Jews and the Christians only) or being killed. The verse about forgiving them are abrogated unanimously by the obligation of fighting in any case".



Can Ms. Karen Armstrong and other Islamists living in the comfort of non-Muslim freethinking society refute the above assertion by an eminent Alim (Islamic scholar)?



Please note that verse 9:5 is a very important verse of Qur’an. This verse marks the transition from the phase of showing mercy (phase 1) and forgiveness to the unbelievers to the phase of open aggression on them (phase 4). As told before, this verse is known as the verse of the sword. This verse cancels all the verses containing mercy, tolerance, and forgiveness to the non-Muslims (as many as 111 to 124 verses; you got to scan the entire Qur’an; anything forgiving, merciful, friendship is out).



Also, note carefully how the chronology order increases as Mohammad turns from a non-violent (like Buddha) person to a fascist nazi like Hitler/Mussolini/Osama/Ayatollah. In fact, we can safely conclude that Mohammad was a saint before the chronology order of the Qur’an was below 87 but he became a fascist dictator after this.



Again note that the chronology order in the final phase of open aggression against all non-Muslims of the world (phase 4) is almost the end (113) chapter (sura) of Qur’an (Remember? There are 114 suras in Qur’an).

KAOSKTRL
Nov 8, 2005, 10:58 AM
Is lying allowed in Islam? I must be a nut to ask such a question! Of course, not, you say. Lying is a great sin in Islam; at least the Islamists will let us believe this. This is a complete delusion. Muslims are allowed to tell lies in order to make the religion of Islam rule the world. Would you not believe me? See for yourself what Imam Ghazali (another supreme Islamic scholar) says:



"Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praise worthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible " (Ref: Ahmad Ibn Naqib al-Misri, The Reliance of the Traveller, translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller , Amana publications, 1997, section r8.2, page 745).



And what could be the noblest goal of a Muslim than to make Islam rule world? This is the secret why the Islamists constantly lie about their religion when they are in West. Because, if they tell the truth, no one will be attracted to Islam.



Islamists often attack the secularists and freethinkers whenever they (secularists/freethinkers) quote the offensive verses of the Qur’an by 'out of context' arguments.



What could be more clear and forceful evidences / proofs than what has been told above that 'out of context' argument by the Islamic apologists is a total hoax?

--------------------------

*A double-faced head represented Janus, a Roman god.

Kasem writes from Sydney, Australia. Comments could be made by writing to – abul88@hotmail.com

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/abulkazem/face_of_islam.htm

G4-450
Nov 8, 2005, 11:15 AM
This is getting more and more funny, its like your slapping yourself in the face over and over for not reading everything honesty at all., I take it your after a lie to feed the demons inside you till they rip your soul out into the fire.

Hadeeth or Talmud (hebrew) means sayings, like " hear say", its clear in the koran that liars believe in "hear say" and the Koran is all you need for the truth, there are however authentic hadeeths.

you keep calling people idiots and all these names when you find out they do not agree with your ideologies, and you can not even provide facts,
and also any idiot can understand what your trying to post better then you do, and what your trying to do with it is only reflecting your poor paranoic habits, so you know, im not upset at your posts at all, i just love telling you the truth becuase when you expose the evil state of mind you got yourself in..

Lets see, Allah means God, so they fight against pagans and polytheists who did not believe in ALLAH, remember now, Jews, Christians and muslims had to fight against the pagans and polytheists too.

Of-course these people who attacked BELIEVERS (of all 3 faiths) did not Believe in God and killed many innocent people, in-fact the believers fought only against those who broke there treaties after agreed to them and many times.


So you can hang up all your phony posts with arabic texts that mean nothing, This is all you need to know if its the truth you want, but of-course i am sure that your gonna try to convince people that Allah is not your god now and the God of arabs too.

Anyone who claims Mohammed attacked Jews or expected them to accept him for his word is a liar, Mohammed signed peace treaties with Jews and Christians and these treaties where very very clear on all sides, Mohammed offered to keep the kabah cleanse of non believers and to protect them as long as they stopped killing each other, remember that there where only around 10, 000 muslims up until Mohammed died, and millions of pagans and polytheists, as well as millions of jews and Christians.

The story you are telling is a fairy tail, you mixed words as half truths to claim lies, we all know colonialism and xenophobes like you are not to be trusted, God promises a evil hell for you now and when you die, every jew knows this too.

Morganite
Nov 8, 2005, 11:55 AM
This is an interesting thread. First it has to be acknowledged that archaeological 'evidence' rarely, if ever 'proves' anything that has a spiritual dimension or is regarded as spiritual truth.

Archaeology can uncover artefacts that show the level of skill reached by the inhabitants of a place at a particular time, and even the foreign influences that were imposed on a community, but no article can show, show, for example, that Jesus is the Son of God, or that Mohammed received inspiration from God. That is not the function of archaeology.

The 'correctness' of the Dead Sea Scrolls is constanty overemphasised, much to the detriment of arguments in favour of the Bible texts. But, unfortunately, both the Dead Sea (Cave I) text of Isaiah and the Septuagint text happen to be inferior articles, the former "rather an anticlimax" to the hopes of the scholars, and the latter "among the poorest [texts] in the Greek Bible."

The insistence that any text is pristine, that is, that it is in the form in which it was in the original monograph has to be challenged, because no originals texts have survived.

It took hundreds of years to give us the Bible, thousands, actually, if you include the Old Testament. The documents had to trickle in from different times, different places, and different writers.

The Tanakh, the Torah; Nebiim, the prophets; and the Kethubim, the literary writings. These are the three things that make up the Bible, all from different authors.

Some parts are poetry, some parts are prophecy, and some parts are history. There are lots of chronicles, etc. Some parts are the law from different times and different places, hundreds of different manuscripts.

Until the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered, the oldest manuscript we had of the books of Moses (the first five books) was from the ninth century A.D. the Ben Asher Codex.

There are eight thousand different old manuscripts of the New Testament, no two alike. So there is a lot of collating, comparing, and arguing about which passages are which and what order they come in.

Then when you have translation, there is no agreement about that. Year after year there are new revised translations coming forth. Well, if the last translation is reliable, why the new revised, improved Cambridge, or Anchor, or whatever it is, edition of the Bible? It's processing all the time.

The Koran was produced in less time than the Bible, but it is heavily dependent ON the Bible. Large chunks of Biblical text are found within its pages, so the time of production has to be considered in the light of its plagiarism of the Hebrew and Greek scriptures.

I will conclude by asking: When will you know when the original Biblical monographs have been restored, and what difference will it make to Christianity in general and your faith, assuming that you are a Christian, in particular? Does faith depend on a perfect script? Is half a loaf better than no bread at all?






MORGANITE



:)

G4-450
Nov 8, 2005, 12:19 PM
It took hundreds of years to give us the Bible, thousands, actually, if you include the Old Testament. The documents had to trickle in from different times, different places, and different writers.

The Tanakh, the Torah; Nebiim, the prophets; and the Kethubim, the literary writings. These are the three things that make up the Bible, all from different authors.

Some parts are poetry, some parts are prophecy, and some parts are history. There are lots of chronicles, etc. Some parts are the law from different times and different places, hundreds of different manuscripts.

Until the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered, the oldest manuscript we had of the books of Moses (the first five books) was from the ninth century A.D., the Ben Asher Codex.

There are eight thousand different old manuscripts of the New Testament, no two alike. So there is a lot of collating, comparing, and arguing about which passages are which and what order they come in.

Then when you have translation, there is no agreement about that. Year after year there are new revised translations coming forth. Well, if the last translation is reliable, why the new revised, improved Cambridge, or Anchor, or whatever it is, edition of the Bible? It's processing all the time.

The Koran was produced in less time than the Bible, but it is heavily dependent ON the Bible. Large chunks of Biblical text are found within its pages, so the time of production has to be considered in the light of its plagiarism of the Hebrew and Greek scriptures.

I will conclude by asking: When will you know when the original Biblical monographs have been restored, and what difference will it make to Christianity in general and your faith, assuming that you are a Christian, in particular? Does faith depend on a perfect script? Is half a loaf better than no bread at all?


MORGANITE

:)
Here we go again,
1- faith does not depend on a perfect strict, all prophets invited people to peace, and all had one universal message, so until the people abandon the demons they live with none of them will seek peace unless they change there ways,

2- the torah is known as the old testament, in the jewish faith the tenack is the LAW, the commandments, which again is called the sharia in arabic for islam.

3- Nothing from the immortal God was left out in the Koran which was in the bible, God is immortal and does not change, time does not exist to God but that he creates it to give us mortal creatures life.

So the only things the Koran refutes are the things which greedy men used to there advantage with religion, by breaking there oaths.

Anyone who has a problem with the Koran should take it up with God, as far as people and religion, it can vary who you trust and what you believe, its your conclusion from honest investigation what is really going on.


I think you might want to read this site about the dead sea scrolls
http://www.mostmerciful.com/scrolls.htm

G4-450
Nov 8, 2005, 12:37 PM
Also this site is very interesting
LInk Here (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Canon/nivorigins.html)



In this article, we have discussed the textual sources used for the translation of the NIV Bible. According to the translators of the NIV Bible, the sources used for the Hebrew Old Testament and the Greek New Testament are their respective critical texts. It was shown that the critical texts, viz. Biblia Hebraica and Novum Testamentum Graece (and also The Greek New Testament based on the latter) are neither "inspired" nor "original" texts. Rather, they are "eclectic" editions and they aim for the earliest attainable form of the Hebrew and Greek texts that can be discerned on the basis of the surviving manuscript evidence. In other words, there is absolutely no evidence to show that the Hebrew Old Testament and the Greek New Testament texts used in the translation of the NIV Bible are either "original" or "inspired" by God.

It must be stressed that the critical texts of the Hebrew Old Testament and the Greek New Testament are unique. No texts like this ever existed in the history of Christianity until the advent of modern textual criticism. Nor were texts like these ever used in the translations in the past. The NIV Bible is not unique using such "eclectic" sources for translation. Most of the modern Bibles such as the RSV and the NASV Bibles also use "eclectic" texts of Hebrew Old Testament and the Greek New Testament.

The "eclectic" Greek New Testament used in these translations has the Alexandrian text. The KJV Bible, on the other hand, was translated from Erasmus' printed Greek New Testament that had the Byzantine text-type. Similar arguments, with slight modifications, can be forwarded against the textual sources used for the KJV Bible. It can be shown that the textual sources of the KJV Bible fare no better than the modern day "eclectic" sources, thereby, making the claim of "inspiration" or the "original" text invalid.

Finally, let us end with some thoughtful words of Robert Lane Fox:

In the Old Testament, especially, historians have helped us to realize that we cannot hope to recover the first, the 'original' text: it is in others, especially non-historians, that the urge to reconstruct it is still extremely strong. The most recent international committee on the text of the Old Testament defined its task by identifying five thousand important places where a Hebrew word was so puzzling that it might need to be corrected. It is not just that such corrections raise difficult questions of method (can we really compare Hebrew words with other Semitic words, Arabic for instance, and deduce a new, unattested sense?). It is that there is deeper problem: the starting point, the late Masoretic Hebrew text, already excludes many earlier alternatives. It is one arbitrary version, hallowed by use, not history. As for the New Testament, in 1966 the United Bible Societies issued a Greek text for students and transators which they, too, described a standard. Their committee considered that there were two thousand places where alternative readings of any significance survived in good manuscripts and then chose between them. It is not just that by 1975 their Greek text had had to be revised twice because no revision has yet proved free from error and improvement. The very aim, a standard version, is misleading and unrealistic. From the variety which we have, any standard involves loss: it does not, and cannot, give us exactly what Paul or the Evangelists originally wrote. [31]

KAOSKTRL
Nov 8, 2005, 01:21 PM
Tasfir 0f 5.17 I think Off the top of my head.

The Polytheism and Disbelief of the Christians

Allah states that the Christians are disbelievers because of their claim that `Isa, son of Maryam, one of Allah's servants and creatures, is Allah. Allah is holier than what they attribute to Him. Allah then reminds them of His perfect ability over everything and that everything is under His complete control and power,

[قُلْ فَمَن يَمْلِكُ مِنَ اللَّهِ شَيْئاً إِنْ أَرَادَ أَن يُهْلِكَ الْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ وَأُمَّهُ وَمَن فِى الاٌّرْضِ جَمِيعاً]

(Say: "Who then has the least power against Allah, if He were to destroy the Messiah, son of Maryam, his mother, and all those who are on the earth together") Therefore, if Allah wills to do that, who would be able to stop Him or prevent Him from doing it Allah then said,

[وَللَّهِ مُلْكُ السَّمَـوَتِ وَالاٌّرْضِ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَآءُ]

(And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them. He creates what He wills.) All things in existence are Allah's property and creation and He is able to do everything. He is never asked about what He does with His power, domain, justice and greatness so this refutes the Christian creed, may Allah's continued curses be upon them until the Day of Resurrection.

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=5&tid=13560

Shirk is worse than Killing

Since Jihad involves killing and shedding the blood of men, Allah indicated that these men are committing disbelief in Allah, associating with Him (in the worship) and hindering from His path, and this is a much greater evil and more disastrous than killing. Abu Malik commented about what Allah said:

[وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ]

(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) Meaning what you (disbelievers) are committing is much worse than killing.'' Abu Al-`Aliyah, Mujahid, Sa`id bin Jubayr, `Ikrimah, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, Ad-Dahhak and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that what Allah said:

[وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ]

(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) "Shirk (polytheism) is worse than killing.''

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=5008

G4-450
Nov 8, 2005, 05:55 PM
Tasfir 0f 5.17 I think Off the top of my head.

The Polytheism and Disbelief of the Christians

Allah states that the Christians are disbelievers because of their claim that `Isa, son of Maryam, one of Allah's servants and creatures, is Allah. Allah is holier than what they attribute to Him. Allah then reminds them of His perfect ability over everything and that everything is under His complete control and power,

1st off, Allah never called Christians polytheists or that they are one and the same. no where in the Koran is there anything saying what your trying to instigate lies against Islam, and your commmiting a curse upon yourself for this.

Koran 2.62 Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

Jesus said in Mathew 19:17
[17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments (laws)--> AKA Tenack in hebrew or Shariah in Arabic.


2nd of all, the death wish on Jesus by his enemies who where not believers in ALLAH during his life on earth and the concept of the Trinity are not one and the same crowd,

Morganite's post about the dead sea scrolls and the Gospel of Barnabes proves that Jesus was never crucified, So how could any man have known this 1400 years ago when the dead sea scrolls appeared 1946?
Surely the Koran is the word of God, the same God of the Bible

You can search here for when the so called trinityand crucifixion started after the life of Jesus and why; http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/aotb.htm

Read again since you left out something to the story;
Koran 4.15 And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

4.158 Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.


4.159 And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Isa) shall be a witness against them.
(((( This is clear that Jesus will have a 2nd comming and stand against those who claimed he was crucified, son of God or trinity to ask them then who gave him life again in the hear after before they are casted into hell and that he had no power higher then God's)))) ))))

Jesus in Matthew 15:19 ; But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

3.59 Surely the likeness of Isa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was.

((( jesus had a mortal mother while Adam "man kind in Hebrew", had no mortal Father or Mother ))))

3.60 (This is) the truth from your Lord, so be not of the disputers.

3.61 But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars.

((( So if you think to stand by conjecture when t has been proven as clear evidence to you, then your challenge is not with believers like me, but with ALLAH, who created all of us, and Jesus will testify against you for it ))))


So look in a dictionary to see what polytheism means before you start mixing it all up with believers and or fallowers of the book.

So as we see, the Koran I very clear in making the diference between who are christians and who are polythiests

G4-450
Nov 8, 2005, 05:55 PM
(Say: "Who then has the least power against Allah, if He were to destroy the Messiah, son of Maryam, his mother, and all those who are on the earth together") Therefore, if Allah wills to do that, who would be able to stop Him or prevent Him from doing it Allah then said,

[???????? ?????? ???????????? ??????????? ????? ??????????? ???????? ??? ???????]

Nope, this is no where to be found in the Koran, you took parts of one paragraph and twisted it with your lies again.



(And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them. He creates what He wills.) All things in existence are Allah's property and creation and He is able to do everything. He is never asked about what He does with His power, domain, justice and greatness so this refutes the Christian creed, may Allah's continued curses be upon them until the Day of Resurrection.
Allah's curse is only on the disbelievers because they lie, starting with Satan and anyone who fallows him, just like you. unless of course they change for the better.
Koran; [8.71] When your Lord said to the angels; Surely I am going to create a mortal from dust:
[38.72] So when I have made him complete and breathed into him of My spirit, then fall down making obeisance to him.
[38.73] And the angels did obeisance, all of them,
[38.74] But not Iblis: he was proud and he was one of the unbelievers.
[38.75] He said: O Iblis! What prevented you that you should do obeisance to him whom I created with My two hands? Are you proud or are you of the exalted ones?
[38.76] He said: I am better than he; Thou hast created me of fire, and him Thou didst create of dust.
[38.77] He said: Then get out of it, for surely you are driven away:
[38.78] And surely My curse is on you to the day of judgment.
[38.79] He said: My Lord! Then respite me to the day that they are raised.
[38.80] He said: Surely you are of the respited ones,
[38.81] Till the period of the time made known.
[38.82] He said: Then by Thy Might I will surely make them live an evil life, all,
[38.83] Except Thy servants from among them, the purified ones.
[38.84] He said: The truth then is and the truth do I speak:
[38.85] That I will most certainly fill hell with you and with those among them who follow you, all.

The liars are cursed; [2.8] And there are some people who say: We believe in Allah and the last day; and they are not at all believers.
[2.9] They desire to deceive Allah and those who believe, and they deceive only themselves and they do not perceive.
[2.10] There is a disease in their hearts, so Allah added to their disease and they shall have a painful chastisement because they lied.

[61.7] And who is more unjust than he who forges a lie against Allah and he is invited to Islam, and Allah does not guide the unjust people.
[61.8] They desire to put out the light of Allah with their mouths but Allah will perfect His light, though the unbelievers may be averse.


Shirk is worse than Killing

Since Jihad involves killing and shedding the blood of men, Allah indicated that these men are committing disbelief in Allah, associating with Him (in the worship) and hindering from His path, and this is a much greater evil and more disastrous than killing. Abu Malik commented about what Allah said:
..........................
.......................
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=5008

This again are lies,
Shirk literally means; "associating partners with God". Polythiesm.
Jihad literally means; "to struggle" or "to strive.

The rest that you keep posting reminds me of what the nazi Germans used to tell there public inside the berlin walls, identical lies made up by xenophobes.

Jihad in the bible; Jesus against so called shirks; (Luke 19:26-27)
"I say to you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. As for my enemies who do not want me to reign over them, bring them here and kill them in my presence" .

Old Testament; "I will send my terror in front of you... you shall utterly demolish them and break their pillars in pieces" (Exodus 23: 23-24, 27). *

Quote:

Gen.35 [5] And they journeyed: and the terror of God was upon the cities that were round about them, and they did not pursue after the sons of Jacob.

Lev.26 [16] I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror , consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.

Deut.34 [12] And in all that mighty hand, and in all the great terror which Moses shewed in the sight of all Israel.

Job.6 [4] For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.

The story of the Mighty Samson and jihad in the bible:
"Self sacrifice" and giving your life away intentionally and taking as many enemy lives with you as possible for the sake of GOD Almighty and your people exists in the Bible.* Let us look at the story of the Mighty Samson in the Bible:

"Samson said to the servant who held his hand, "Put me where I can feel the pillars that support the temple, so that I may lean against them."* Now the temple was crowded with men and women; all the rulers of the Philistines were there, and on the roof were about three thousand men and women watching Samson perform.* Then Samson prayed to the LORD, "O Sovereign LORD , remember me. O God, please strengthen me just once more, and let me with one blow get revenge on the Philistines for my two eyes."* Then Samson reached toward the two central pillars on which the temple stood. Bracing himself against them, his right hand on the one and his left hand on the other, Samson said, "Let me die with the Philistines!" Then he pushed with all his might, and down came the temple on the rulers and all the people in it. Thus he killed many more when he died than while he lived.* (From the NIV Bible, Judges 16:26-30)"

God, ALLAH, never change his word against unjust people, tyrants and liars.
[50.29] My word shall not be changed, nor am I in the least unjust to the servants.

I can go on, but the point is that God's word stands against those who use it in tribal favoritism against other unjustly, as also the jews did against the other tribes of israel.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 8, 2005, 06:09 PM
[QUOTE=KAOSKTRL]Tasfir 0f 5.17 I think Off the top of my head.

The Polytheism and Disbelief of the Christians

Allah states that the Christians are disbelievers because of their claim that `Isa, son of Maryam, one of Allah's servants and creatures, is Allah. Allah is holier than what they attribute to Him. Allah then reminds them of His perfect ability over everything and that everything is under His complete control and power,

[قُلْ فَمَن يَمْلِكُ مِنَ اللَّهِ شَيْئاً إِنْ أَرَادَ أَن يُهْلِكَ الْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ وَأُمَّهُ وَمَن فِى الاٌّرْضِ جَمِيعاً]

(Say: "Who then has the least power against Allah, if He were to destroy the Messiah, son of Maryam, his mother, and all those who are on the earth together") Therefore, if Allah wills to do that, who would be able to stop Him or prevent Him from doing it Allah then said,

[وَللَّهِ مُلْكُ السَّمَـوَتِ وَالاٌّرْضِ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَآءُ]

(And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them. He creates what He wills.) All things in existence are Allah's property and creation and He is able to do everything. He is never asked about what He does with His power, domain, justice and greatness so this refutes the Christian creed, may Allah's continued curses be upon them until the Day of Resurrection.

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=5&tid=13560

Shirk is worse than Killing

Since Jihad involves killing and shedding the blood of men, Allah indicated that these men are committing disbelief in Allah, associating with Him (in the worship) and hindering from His path, and this is a much greater evil and more disastrous than killing. Abu Malik commented about what Allah said:

[وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ]

(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) Meaning what you (disbelievers) are committing is much worse than killing.'' Abu Al-`Aliyah, Mujahid, Sa`id bin Jubayr, `Ikrimah, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, Ad-Dahhak and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that what Allah said:

[وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ]

(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) "Shirk (polytheism) is worse than killing.''

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=5008

G4-450
Nov 8, 2005, 06:17 PM
I take it from your post that you want to stand by your modified texts to entice anti semetic racist like yourself..

[4.120] He gives them promises and excites vain desires in them; and the Shaitan does not promise them but to deceive.


[7.179] And certainly We have created for hell many of the jinn and the men; they have hearts with which they do not understand, and they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear; they are as cattle, nay, they are in worse errors; these are the heedless ones.


:D
Keep posting, this is really a good example of how the "Jihad Watch " suckers use lies to deceive ignorant inbred xenophobes who we need to keep track off for crimes in our streets like alcohol related rape, robberies, drive by shootings, looting, fruad, deception and hate crimes above all.

I am sure that foreigners do not know the system that well to be carrying out such low acts in our streets, did you?

G4-450
Nov 8, 2005, 06:25 PM
Tasfir 0f 5.17 I think Off the top of my head.

The Polytheism and Disbelief of the Christians

Allah states that the Christians are disbelievers because of their claim that `Isa, son of Maryam, one of Allah's servants and creatures, is Allah. Allah is holier than what they attribute to Him. Allah then reminds them of His perfect ability over everything and that everything is under His complete control and power,

1st off, Allah never called Christians polytheists or that they are one and the same. no where in the Koran is there anything saying what your trying to instigate lies against Islam, and your commmiting a curse upon yourself for this.

Koran 2.62 Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

Jesus said in Mathew 19:17
[17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments (laws)--> AKA Tenack in hebrew or Shariah in Arabic.


2nd of all, the death wish on Jesus by his enemies who where not believers in ALLAH during his life on earth and the concept of the Trinity are not one and the same crowd,

Morganite's post about the dead sea scrolls and the Gospel of Barnabes proves that Jesus was never crucified, So how could any man have known this 1400 years ago when the dead sea scrolls appeared 1946?
Surely the Koran is the word of God, the same God of the Bible

You can search here for when the so called trinityand crucifixion started after the life of Jesus and why; http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/aotb.htm

Read again since you left out something to the story;
Koran 4.15 And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

4.158 Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.


4.159 And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Isa) shall be a witness against them.
(((( This is clear that Jesus will have a 2nd comming and stand against those who claimed he was crucified, son of God or trinity to ask them then who gave him life again in the hear after before they are casted into hell and that he had no power higher then God's)))) ))))

Jesus in Matthew 15:19 ; But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

3.59 Surely the likeness of Isa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was.

((( jesus had a mortal mother while Adam "man kind in Hebrew", had no mortal Father or Mother ))))

3.60 (This is) the truth from your Lord, so be not of the disputers.

3.61 But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars.

((( So if you think to stand by conjecture when t has been proven as clear evidence to you, then your challenge is not with believers like me, but with ALLAH, who created all of us, and Jesus will testify against you for it ))))


So look in a dictionary to see what polytheism means before you start mixing it all up with believers and or fallowers of the book.

So as we see, the Koran I very clear in making the diference between who are christians and who are polythiests

G4-450
Nov 8, 2005, 06:27 PM
(Say: "Who then has the least power against Allah, if He were to destroy the Messiah, son of Maryam, his mother, and all those who are on the earth together") Therefore, if Allah wills to do that, who would be able to stop Him or prevent Him from doing it Allah then said,

[???????? ?????? ???????????? ??????????? ????? ??????????? ???????? ??? ???????]

Nope, this is no where to be found in the Koran, you took parts of one paragraph and twisted it with your lies again.



(And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them. He creates what He wills.) All things in existence are Allah's property and creation and He is able to do everything. He is never asked about what He does with His power, domain, justice and greatness so this refutes the Christian creed, may Allah's continued curses be upon them until the Day of Resurrection.
Allah's curse is only on the disbelievers because they lie (not christians), the talmudic Jews are the ones who hate Christians, and Allahs curse started with Satan and anyone who fallows him, just like you. unless you change for the better.
Koran; [8.71] When your Lord said to the angels; Surely I am going to create a mortal from dust:
[38.72] So when I have made him complete and breathed into him of My spirit, then fall down making obeisance to him.
[38.73] And the angels did obeisance, all of them,
[38.74] But not Iblis: he was proud and he was one of the unbelievers.
[38.75] He said: O Iblis! What prevented you that you should do obeisance to him whom I created with My two hands? Are you proud or are you of the exalted ones?
[38.76] He said: I am better than he; Thou hast created me of fire, and him Thou didst create of dust.
[38.77] He said: Then get out of it, for surely you are driven away:
[38.78] And surely My curse is on you to the day of judgment.
[38.79] He said: My Lord! Then respite me to the day that they are raised.
[38.80] He said: Surely you are of the respited ones,
[38.81] Till the period of the time made known.
[38.82] He said: Then by Thy Might I will surely make them live an evil life, all,
[38.83] Except Thy servants from among them, the purified ones.
[38.84] He said: The truth then is and the truth do I speak:
[38.85] That I will most certainly fill hell with you and with those among them who follow you, all.

The liars are cursed; [2.8] And there are some people who say: We believe in Allah and the last day; and they are not at all believers.
[2.9] They desire to deceive Allah and those who believe, and they deceive only themselves and they do not perceive.
[2.10] There is a disease in their hearts, so Allah added to their disease and they shall have a painful chastisement because they lied.

[61.7] And who is more unjust than he who forges a lie against Allah and he is invited to Islam, and Allah does not guide the unjust people.
[61.8] They desire to put out the light of Allah with their mouths but Allah will perfect His light, though the unbelievers may be averse.


Shirk is worse than Killing

Since Jihad involves killing and shedding the blood of men, Allah indicated that these men are committing disbelief in Allah, associating with Him (in the worship) and hindering from His path, and this is a much greater evil and more disastrous than killing. Abu Malik commented about what Allah said:
..........................
.......................
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=5008

These are lies again with your intentions to point the finger in order to start blame games against islam,

Jihad is from the bible, you know it and G W Bush knows it well and tries to pretend he is backing it up against Sadam, one of his very own allies who made deals with Russia which the US. Did not like since the Regean Administration.

Shirk literally means; "associating partners with God". Polythiesm.
Jihad literally means; "to struggle" or "to strive.

The rest that you keep posting reminds me of what the nazi Germans used to tell there public inside the berlin walls, identical lies made up by xenophobes.

Jihad in the bible; Jesus against so called shirks; (Luke 19:26-27)
"I say to you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. As for my enemies who do not want me to reign over them, bring them here and kill them in my presence" .

Old Testament; "I will send my terror in front of you... you shall utterly demolish them and break their pillars in pieces" (Exodus 23: 23-24, 27). *

Quote:

Gen.35 [5] And they journeyed: and the terror of God was upon the cities that were round about them, and they did not pursue after the sons of Jacob.

Lev.26 [16] I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror , consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.

Deut.34 [12] And in all that mighty hand, and in all the great terror which Moses shewed in the sight of all Israel.

Job.6 [4] For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.

The story of the Mighty Samson and jihad in the bible:
"Self sacrifice" and giving your life away intentionally and taking as many enemy lives with you as possible for the sake of GOD Almighty and your people exists in the Bible.* Let us look at the story of the Mighty Samson in the Bible:

"Samson said to the servant who held his hand, "Put me where I can feel the pillars that support the temple, so that I may lean against them."* Now the temple was crowded with men and women; all the rulers of the Philistines were there, and on the roof were about three thousand men and women watching Samson perform.* Then Samson prayed to the LORD, "O Sovereign LORD , remember me. O God, please strengthen me just once more, and let me with one blow get revenge on the Philistines for my two eyes."* Then Samson reached toward the two central pillars on which the temple stood. Bracing himself against them, his right hand on the one and his left hand on the other, Samson said, "Let me die with the Philistines!" Then he pushed with all his might, and down came the temple on the rulers and all the people in it. Thus he killed many more when he died than while he lived.* (From the NIV Bible, Judges 16:26-30)"

God, ALLAH, never change his word against unjust people, tyrants and liars.
[50.29] My word shall not be changed, nor am I in the least unjust to the servants.

I can go on, but the point is that God's word stands against those who use it in tribal favoritism against other unjustly, as also the jews did against the other tribes of israel.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 8, 2005, 08:03 PM
2.191. And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (the sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
http://infidels.kafirnation.com/english/surah2.html

Fatwa
Question :

I see the word fitnah repeated often in the Qur’aan in several soorahs and aayahs. Is there a difference in the meanings of this word, and what are its various meanings?


Answer :

Praise be to Allaah.

Definition of fitnah:

1 – The word fitnah from a linguistic point of view:

Al-Azhari said: “The Arabic word fitnah includes meanings of testing and trial. The root is taken from the phrase fatantu al-fiddah wa’l-dhahab (I assayed (tested the quality of) the silver and gold), meaning I melted the metals to separate the bad from the good. Similarly, Allaah says in the Qur’aan (interpretation of the meaning): ‘(It will be) a Day when they will be tried [yuftanoona] (punished, i.e. burnt) over the Fire!’ [al-Dhaariyaat 51:13], meaning, burning them with fire.” (Tahdheeb al-Lughah, 14/196).

Ibn Faaris said: “Fa-ta-na is a sound root which indicates testing or trial.” (Maqaayees al-Lughah, 4/472). This is the basic meaning of the word fitnah in Arabic.

Ibn al-Atheer said: “Fitnah: trial or test… The word is often used to describe tests in which something disliked is eliminated. Later it was also often used in the sense of sin, kufr (disbelief), fighting, burning, removing and diverting.” (al-Nihaayah, 3/410. Ibn Hajar said something similar in al-Fath, 13/3).

Ibn al-A’raabi summed up the meanings of fitnah when he said: “Fitnah means testing, fitnah means trial, fitnah means wealth, fitnah means children, fitnah means kufr, fitnah means differences of opinion among people, fitnah means burning with fire.” (Lisaan al-‘Arab by Ibn Manzoor).

2 – Meanings of the word fitnah in the Qur’aan and Sunnah:

1- Testing and trial, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“Do people think that they will be left alone because they say: ‘We believe, and will not be tested [la yuftanoon]” [al-‘Ankaboot 29:2]

i.e. that they will not be subjected to trial, as Ibn Jareer said.

2- Blocking the way and turning people away, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“but beware of them lest they turn you [yaftinooka] (O Muhammad) far away from some of that which Allaah has sent down to you” [al-Maa’idah 5:49]

Al-Qurtubi said: this means blocking your way and turning you away.

3- Persecution, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“Then, verily, your Lord for those who emigrated after they had been put to trials [futinoo] and thereafter strove hard and fought (for the Cause of Allaah) and were patient, verily, your Lord afterward is, Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful” [al-Nahl 16:110]

Put to trial means persecuted.

4- Shirk and kufr, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allaah)” [al-Baqarah 2:193]

Ibn Katheer said: this means shirk (worshipping others besides Allaah).

5- Falling into sin and hypocrisy, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“(The hypocrites) will call the believers: “Were we not with you?” The believers will reply: “Yes! But you led yourselves into temptations [fatantum anfusakum], you looked forward for our destruction; you doubted (in Faith) and you were deceived by false desires” [al-Hadeed 57:14]

Al-Baghawi said: i.e. you made yourselves fall into hypocrisy and you destroyed yourselves by means of sin and whims and desires.

6- Confusing truth with falsehood, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“And those who disbelieve are allies of one another, (and) if you (Muslims of the whole world collectively) do not do so [i.e. become allies, as one united block under one Khaleefah (a chief Muslim ruler for the whole Muslim world) to make victorious Allaah’s religion of Islamic Monotheism], there will be Fitnah (wars, battles, polytheism) and oppression on the earth, and a great mischief and corruption (appearance of polytheism)”[al-Anfaal 6:73]

What this means is that “unless believers are taken as close friends instead of disbelievers, even if they are relatives, there will be fitnah on earth, i.e., truth will be confused with falsehood.” This is how it is explained in Jaami’ al-Bayaan by Ibn Jareer.

7- Misguidance, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“And whomsoever Allaah wants to put in Al‑Fitnah (error, because of his rejecting of Faith), you can do nothing for him against Allaah” [al-Maa'idah 5:41]

The meaning of fitnah here is misguidance. Al-Bahr al-Muheet by Abu Hayaan, 4/262.

8- Killing and taking prisoners, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“if you fear that the disbelievers may put you in trial [yaftinakum] (attack you)”

[al-Nisa’ 4:101]

This refers to the kaafirs attacking the Muslims whilst they are praying and prostrating, in order to kill them or take them prisoner, as stated by Ibn Jareer.

9- Difference among people and lack of agreement, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“and they would have hurried about in your midst (spreading corruption) and sowing sedition among you [yabghoonakum al-fitnah]” [al-Tawbah 9:47]

i.e. they would have stirred up differences amongst you, as it says in al-Kashshaaf, 2/277.

10-Insanity, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“Which of you is afflicted with madness (maftoon)” [al-Qalam 68:6] Here it means madness.

11-Burning with fire, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, those who put into trial [fatanoo] the believing men and believing women (by torturing them and burning them)”[al-Burooj 85:10]

Ibn Hajar said: the meaning may be understood from the context. (al-Fath 11/176)

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng
The Polytheism and Disbelief of the Christians

Allah states that the Christians are disbelievers because of their claim that `Isa, son of Maryam, one of Allah's servants and creatures, is Allah. Allah is holier than what they attribute to Him. Allah then reminds them of His perfect ability over everything and that everything is under His complete control and power,

[قُلْ فَمَن يَمْلِكُ مِنَ اللَّهِ شَيْئاً إِنْ أَرَادَ أَن يُهْلِكَ الْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ وَأُمَّهُ وَمَن فِى الاٌّرْضِ جَمِيعاً]

(Say: "Who then has the least power against Allah, if He were to destroy the Messiah, son of Maryam, his mother, and all those who are on the earth together") Therefore, if Allah wills to do that, who would be able to stop Him or prevent Him from doing it Allah then said,

[وَللَّهِ مُلْكُ السَّمَـوَتِ وَالاٌّرْضِ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَآءُ]

(And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them. He creates what He wills.) All things in existence are Allah's property and creation and He is able to do everything. He is never asked about what He does with His power, domain, justice and greatness so this refutes the Christian creed, may Allah's continued curses be upon them until the Day of Resurrection.

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=5&tid=13560

Shirk is worse than Killing

Since Jihad involves killing and shedding the blood of men, Allah indicated that these men are committing disbelief in Allah, associating with Him (in the worship) and hindering from His path, and this is a much greater evil and more disastrous than killing. Abu Malik commented about what Allah said:

[وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ]

(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) Meaning what you (disbelievers) are committing is much worse than killing.'' Abu Al-`Aliyah, Mujahid, Sa`id bin Jubayr, `Ikrimah, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, Ad-Dahhak and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that what Allah said:

[وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ]

(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) "Shirk (polytheism) is worse than killing.''

KAOSKTRL
Nov 8, 2005, 08:12 PM
Question :

What is the difference between mushrikeen and kuffaar? Are the Jews and Christians mushrikeen or kuffaar?.


Answer :

Praise be to Allaah.

Firstly:

The kaafir is the one who denies and conceals the truth. The basic meaning of the word kufr in Arabic is concealment. Shirk means devoting worship to anyone or anything other than Allaah.

Kufr may take the form of denying and rejecting, but the mushrik may also believe in Allaah. This is the difference between the mushrik and the kaafir.

Each word may also carry the meaning of the other, so the word kufr may be used in the sense of shirk, and the word shirk may be used in the sense of kufr.

Al-Nawawi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

Kufr and shirk may carry the same meaning, which is disbelief in Allaah, may He be exalted, or they may be used separately, whereby shirk refers to the worship of idols and other created beings, whilst also acknowledging Allaah, as the kuffaar of Quraysh did, and kufr may have a more general meaning than shirk. End quote.

Sharh Saheeh Muslim. 2/71

Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

Kufr is denial and concealment of the truth, such as one who denies that prayer is obligatory, or that zakaah is obligatory, or that fasting Ramadaan is obligatory, or that doing Hajj when one is able to is obligatory, or that honouring one's parents is obligatory, and so on, or one who denies that zina is haraam, or that drinking intoxicants is haraam, or that disobeying one’s parents is haraam, and so on.

Shirk is devoting acts of worship to something or someone other than Allaah, such as one who seeks the help of the dead, those who are absent, the jinn, idols, the stars, and so on, or who offers sacrifices to them, or makes vows to them. A kaafir may be called a mushrik and a mushrik may be called a kaafir, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And whoever invokes (or worships), besides Allaah, any other ilaah (god), of whom he has no proof; then his reckoning is only with his Lord. Surely, Al‑Kaafiroon (the disbelievers in Allaah and in the Oneness of Allaah, polytheists, pagans, idolaters) will not be successful”
[al-Mu’minoon 23:117]

“Verily, whosoever sets up partners (in worship) with Allaah, then Allaah has forbidden Paradise to him, and the Fire will be his abode”

[al-Maa'idah 5:72]

And Allaah says in Soorat Faatir (interpretation of the meaning):

“Such is Allaah, your Lord; His is the kingdom. And those, whom you invoke or call upon instead of Him, own not even a Qitmeer (the thin membrane over the date stone).

14. If you invoke (or call upon) them, they hear not your call; and if (in case) they were to hear, they could not grant it (your request) to you. And on the Day of Resurrection, they will disown your worshipping them. And none can inform you (O Muhammad) like Him Who is the All‑Knower (of everything)”
[Faatir 35:13-14]

Their calling on anything other than Allaah is called shirk in this soorah, but in Soorat al-Mu’minoon it is called kufr.

Allaah says in Soorat al-Tawbah (interpretation of the meaning):

“They (the disbelievers, the Jews and the Christians) want to extinguish Allaah’s Light (with which Muhammad has been sent — Islamic Monotheism) with their mouths, but Allaah will not allow except that His Light should be perfected even though the Kaafiroon (disbelievers) hate (it).

33. It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it superior over all religions even though the Mushrikoon (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allaah) hate (it)”

[al-Tawbah 9:32-33]

Here Allaah calls the kuffaar kuffaar, and He calls them mushrikeen. This indicates that a kaafir may be called a mushrik and a mushrik may be called a kaafir. There are many similar verses and ahaadeeth.

Another example is the hadeeth in which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Between a man and shirk and kufr there stands his giving up prayer.” Narrated by Muslim in his Saheeh from Jaabir ibn ‘Abd-Allaah (may Allaah be pleased with him). And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The covenant that differentiates us from them is prayer; whoever gives it up is a kaafir.” Narrated by Imam Ahmad, Abu Dawood, al-Tirmidhi, al-Nasaa’i and Ibn Maajah with a saheeh isnaad from Buraydah ibn al-Husayb (may Allaah be pleased with him). And Allaah is the Source of strength. End quote.

Majmoo’ Fataawa al-Shaykh Ibn Baaz, 9/174, 175.

The Shaykh (may Allaah have mercy on him) also said:

It is also shirk to worship only something other than Allaah. This is called shirk, and it is called kufr. Whoever turns away from Allaah altogether and devotes his worship to something other than Allaah, such as trees, rocks, idols, the jinn or some of the dead such as those whom they call awliya’ (“saints”), and worship them, pray to them or fast for them, and forget Allaah altogether, this is the worst form of kufr and shirk. We ask Allaah to keep us safe and sound. Similarly those who deny the existence of Allaah and say that there is no god, that life is only material, such as the communists and atheists, are the most disbelieving and misguided of people, and the worst in terms of shirk. We ask Allaah to keep us safe and sound. The point is that people who hold these and similar beliefs are all regarded as mushrikeen and kaafirs who disbelieve in Allaah. Some people, out of ignorance, mistakenly regard calling upon the dead and seeking their help as waseelah and think that it is permissible. This is a serious error, because this action is one of the worst forms of shirk and associating others with Allaah. Some ignorant people and mushrikeen call it waseelah, but it is the religion of the mushrikeen whom Allaah criticized and condemned. He sent the Messenger and revealed His Books to denounce it and warn against it. End quote.

Majmoo’ Fataawa al-Shaykh Ibn Baaz, 4/32, 33

Secondly:

The Jews and Christians are both kaafirs and mushrikeen. They are kaafirs because they deny the truth and reject it. And they are mushrikeen because they worship someone other than Allaah.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And the Jews say: ‘Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allaah, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allaah. That is their saying with their mouths, resembling the saying of those who disbelieved aforetime. Allaah’s Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!

31. They (Jews and Christians) took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allaah (by obeying them in things which they made lawful or unlawful according to their own desires without being ordered by Allaah), and (they also took as their Lord) Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary), while they (Jews and Christians) were commanded [in the Tawraat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] to worship none but One Ilaah (God — Allaah) Laa ilaaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He). Praise and glory be to Him (far above is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)”

[al-Tawbah 9:30, 31]

Here they are described as mushrikeen. In Soorat al-Bayyinah they are described as kaafirs, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Those who disbelieve from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and Al‑Mushrikoon, were not going to leave (their disbelief) until there came to them clear evidence”

[al-Bayyinah 98:1]

Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him) said, refuting those who say that the word mushrikeen cannot be applied to the People of the Book:

It is most likely that the people of the Book are included among the mushrikeen, men and women alike, when this word is used in general terms. Because the kuffaar are undoubtedly mushrikeen. Hence they are forbidden to enter al-Masjid al-Haraam, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O you who believe (in Allaah’s Oneness and in His Messenger Muhammad)! Verily, the Mushrikoon (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allaah, and in the Message of Muhammad) are Najasun (impure). So let them not come near Al‑Masjid Al-Haraam (at Makkah) after this year”

[al-Tawbah 9:28]

If the People of the Book did not come under the general heading of mushrikeen, then this verse would not apply to them, and Allaah would not have referred to the beliefs of the Jews and Christians in Soorat Baraa’ah (al-Tawbah) where He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“they (Jews and Christians) were commanded [in the Tawraat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] to worship none but One Ilaah (God — Allaah) Laa ilaaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He). Praise and glory be to Him (far above is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)”

[al-Tawbah 9:31]

So they are all described as mushrikeen, because the Jews said that ‘Uzayr is the son of God and the Christians said that the Messiah is the son of God; and because they took their priests and rabbis as lords instead of Allaah. All of this is the worst form of shirk. And there are many similar verses. End quote.

Majmoo’ Fataawa al-Shaykh Ibn Baaz, 4/274

And Allaah knows best.

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=67626&dgn=4

G4-450
Nov 9, 2005, 12:01 AM
[2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers
[2.192] But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.Such is the recompense of the disbelievers..

The above is the correct translation, not your Nime Kumpf version.



Fitna (not fatwa)
Question :

I see the word fitnah repeated often in the Qur’aan in several soorahs and aayahs. Is there a difference in the meanings of this word, and what are its various meanings?


Answer :

Praise be to Allaah.

Definition of fitnah:

1 – The word fitnah from a linguistic point of view:

G-450 “The Arabic word fitnah means evil. like someone atacking another from there own orejudcues or hatred,


Put to trial DOES NOT MEAN to be persecuted, it means you your indavidual self will face your own choices, there is no compulssion in religion .

4- Shirk and kufr, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

SHirk means; polythiests
Kufr means; athiests
You ayat that states;
“And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allaah)” [al-Baqarah 2:193]
is really

IS realy;

[2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

So your lying since this is not what the koran exactly says, your committing fitna, cops should be aware about people like you who start trouble because you're a paranoid xenophobe alike your friends the nazis who where cowards and claimed the jews where a threat to them once.

you yourself said that some nazis are good in some of your posts

You admitted to been a bais racist, I am surprised they let you keep posting on this website, it's a known crime to think some people should die because you can not live in the world accepting yourself as a man, what demons are eating you up and why is beyond me for I have no clue what you did to deserve losing your soul like this and then trying to take otehrs with you with lies.

Q=how is anyone good for lying and pretending they where a socialist party until gaining power in there government to deceive the German people into there racist diseases?

If your into nazism then you should learn that the nazis found out that they themselves where breeding the bad alcoholic genes, and with siblins too, or did you already learn that the hard way?

KAOSKTRL
Nov 9, 2005, 12:48 AM
]Question :

What is the difference between mushrikeen and kuffaar? Are the Jews and Christians mushrikeen or kuffaar?.


Answer :

Praise be to Allaah.

Firstly:

The kaafir is the one who denies and conceals the truth. The basic meaning of the word kufr in Arabic is concealment. Shirk means devoting worship to anyone or anything other than Allaah.

Kufr may take the form of denying and rejecting, but the mushrik may also believe in Allaah. This is the difference between the mushrik and the kaafir.

Each word may also carry the meaning of the other, so the word kufr may be used in the sense of shirk, and the word shirk may be used in the sense of kufr.

Al-Nawawi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

Kufr and shirk may carry the same meaning, which is disbelief in Allaah, may He be exalted, or they may be used separately, whereby shirk refers to the worship of idols and other created beings, whilst also acknowledging Allaah, as the kuffaar of Quraysh did, and kufr may have a more general meaning than shirk. End quote.

Sharh Saheeh Muslim. 2/71

Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

Kufr is denial and concealment of the truth, such as one who denies that prayer is obligatory, or that zakaah is obligatory, or that fasting Ramadaan is obligatory, or that doing Hajj when one is able to is obligatory, or that honouring one's parents is obligatory, and so on, or one who denies that zina is haraam, or that drinking intoxicants is haraam, or that disobeying one’s parents is haraam, and so on.

Shirk is devoting acts of worship to something or someone other than Allaah, such as one who seeks the help of the dead, those who are absent, the jinn, idols, the stars, and so on, or who offers sacrifices to them, or makes vows to them. A kaafir may be called a mushrik and a mushrik may be called a kaafir, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And whoever invokes (or worships), besides Allaah, any other ilaah (god), of whom he has no proof; then his reckoning is only with his Lord. Surely, Al‑Kaafiroon (the disbelievers in Allaah and in the Oneness of Allaah, polytheists, pagans, idolaters) will not be successful”
[al-Mu’minoon 23:117]

“Verily, whosoever sets up partners (in worship) with Allaah, then Allaah has forbidden Paradise to him, and the Fire will be his abode”

[al-Maa'idah 5:72]

And Allaah says in Soorat Faatir (interpretation of the meaning):

“Such is Allaah, your Lord; His is the kingdom. And those, whom you invoke or call upon instead of Him, own not even a Qitmeer (the thin membrane over the date stone).

14. If you invoke (or call upon) them, they hear not your call; and if (in case) they were to hear, they could not grant it (your request) to you. And on the Day of Resurrection, they will disown your worshipping them. And none can inform you (O Muhammad) like Him Who is the All‑Knower (of everything)”
[Faatir 35:13-14]

Their calling on anything other than Allaah is called shirk in this soorah, but in Soorat al-Mu’minoon it is called kufr.

Allaah says in Soorat al-Tawbah (interpretation of the meaning):

“They (the disbelievers, the Jews and the Christians) want to extinguish Allaah’s Light (with which Muhammad has been sent — Islamic Monotheism) with their mouths, but Allaah will not allow except that His Light should be perfected even though the Kaafiroon (disbelievers) hate (it).

33. It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it superior over all religions even though the Mushrikoon (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allaah) hate (it)”

[al-Tawbah 9:32-33]

Here Allaah calls the kuffaar kuffaar, and He calls them mushrikeen. This indicates that a kaafir may be called a mushrik and a mushrik may be called a kaafir. There are many similar verses and ahaadeeth.

Another example is the hadeeth in which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Between a man and shirk and kufr there stands his giving up prayer.” Narrated by Muslim in his Saheeh from Jaabir ibn ‘Abd-Allaah (may Allaah be pleased with him). And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The covenant that differentiates us from them is prayer; whoever gives it up is a kaafir.” Narrated by Imam Ahmad, Abu Dawood, al-Tirmidhi, al-Nasaa’i and Ibn Maajah with a saheeh isnaad from Buraydah ibn al-Husayb (may Allaah be pleased with him). And Allaah is the Source of strength. End quote.

Majmoo’ Fataawa al-Shaykh Ibn Baaz, 9/174, 175.

The Shaykh (may Allaah have mercy on him) also said:

It is also shirk to worship only something other than Allaah. This is called shirk, and it is called kufr. Whoever turns away from Allaah altogether and devotes his worship to something other than Allaah, such as trees, rocks, idols, the jinn or some of the dead such as those whom they call awliya’ (“saints”), and worship them, pray to them or fast for them, and forget Allaah altogether, this is the worst form of kufr and shirk. We ask Allaah to keep us safe and sound. Similarly those who deny the existence of Allaah and say that there is no god, that life is only material, such as the communists and atheists, are the most disbelieving and misguided of people, and the worst in terms of shirk. We ask Allaah to keep us safe and sound. The point is that people who hold these and similar beliefs are all regarded as mushrikeen and kaafirs who disbelieve in Allaah. Some people, out of ignorance, mistakenly regard calling upon the dead and seeking their help as waseelah and think that it is permissible. This is a serious error, because this action is one of the worst forms of shirk and associating others with Allaah. Some ignorant people and mushrikeen call it waseelah, but it is the religion of the mushrikeen whom Allaah criticized and condemned. He sent the Messenger and revealed His Books to denounce it and warn against it. End quote.

Majmoo’ Fataawa al-Shaykh Ibn Baaz, 4/32, 33

Secondly:

The Jews and Christians are both kaafirs and mushrikeen. They are kaafirs because they deny the truth and reject it. And they are mushrikeen because they worship someone other than Allaah.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And the Jews say: ‘Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allaah, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allaah. That is their saying with their mouths, resembling the saying of those who disbelieved aforetime. Allaah’s Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!

31. They (Jews and Christians) took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allaah (by obeying them in things which they made lawful or unlawful according to their own desires without being ordered by Allaah), and (they also took as their Lord) Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary), while they (Jews and Christians) were commanded [in the Tawraat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] to worship none but One Ilaah (God — Allaah) Laa ilaaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He). Praise and glory be to Him (far above is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)”

[al-Tawbah 9:30, 31]

Here they are described as mushrikeen. In Soorat al-Bayyinah they are described as kaafirs, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Those who disbelieve from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and Al‑Mushrikoon, were not going to leave (their disbelief) until there came to them clear evidence”

[al-Bayyinah 98:1]

Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him) said, refuting those who say that the word mushrikeen cannot be applied to the People of the Book:

It is most likely that the people of the Book are included among the mushrikeen, men and women alike, when this word is used in general terms. Because the kuffaar are undoubtedly mushrikeen. Hence they are forbidden to enter al-Masjid al-Haraam, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O you who believe (in Allaah’s Oneness and in His Messenger Muhammad)! Verily, the Mushrikoon (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allaah, and in the Message of Muhammad) are Najasun (impure). So let them not come near Al‑Masjid Al-Haraam (at Makkah) after this year”

[al-Tawbah 9:28]

If the People of the Book did not come under the general heading of mushrikeen, then this verse would not apply to them, and Allaah would not have referred to the beliefs of the Jews and Christians in Soorat Baraa’ah (al-Tawbah) where He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“they (Jews and Christians) were commanded [in the Tawraat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] to worship none but One Ilaah (God — Allaah) Laa ilaaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He). Praise and glory be to Him (far above is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)”

[al-Tawbah 9:31]

So they are all described as mushrikeen, because the Jews said that ‘Uzayr is the son of God and the Christians said that the Messiah is the son of God; and because they took their priests and rabbis as lords instead of Allaah. All of this is the worst form of shirk. And there are many similar verses. End quote.

Majmoo’ Fataawa al-Shaykh Ibn Baaz, 4/274

And Allaah knows best.

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=67626&dgn=4[/QUOTE]

KAOSKTRL
Nov 9, 2005, 12:54 AM
SOME KOOK CLAIMS IM CHANGING THE QURAN,
CHECK MY MINE AGAINST THE ONE ON THIS HATE SITE.
YOU HAVE EYES AND A BRAIN FIGURE OUT WHO IS A LIAR.
LOOK UP FITNAH FIND OUT WHAT TASFIR IS AND WHY IT IS Important TO UNDERSTAND.
WHO IS REALLY TRYING TO DISTORT ISLAM?
http://www.road-to-heaven.com/noblequran.htm


2.191. And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (the sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
http://infidels.kafirnation.com/english/surah2.html

Fatwa
Question :

I see the word fitnah repeated often in the Qur’aan in several soorahs and aayahs. Is there a difference in the meanings of this word, and what are its various meanings?


Answer :

Praise be to Allaah.

Definition of fitnah:

1 – The word fitnah from a linguistic point of view:

Al-Azhari said: “The Arabic word fitnah includes meanings of testing and trial. The root is taken from the phrase fatantu al-fiddah wa’l-dhahab (I assayed (tested the quality of) the silver and gold), meaning I melted the metals to separate the bad from the good. Similarly, Allaah says in the Qur’aan (interpretation of the meaning): ‘(It will be) a Day when they will be tried [yuftanoona] (punished, i.e. burnt) over the Fire!’ [al-Dhaariyaat 51:13], meaning, burning them with fire.” (Tahdheeb al-Lughah, 14/196).

Ibn Faaris said: “Fa-ta-na is a sound root which indicates testing or trial.” (Maqaayees al-Lughah, 4/472). This is the basic meaning of the word fitnah in Arabic.

Ibn al-Atheer said: “Fitnah: trial or test… The word is often used to describe tests in which something disliked is eliminated. Later it was also often used in the sense of sin, kufr (disbelief), fighting, burning, removing and diverting.” (al-Nihaayah, 3/410. Ibn Hajar said something similar in al-Fath, 13/3).

Ibn al-A’raabi summed up the meanings of fitnah when he said: “Fitnah means testing, fitnah means trial, fitnah means wealth, fitnah means children, fitnah means kufr, fitnah means differences of opinion among people, fitnah means burning with fire.” (Lisaan al-‘Arab by Ibn Manzoor).

2 – Meanings of the word fitnah in the Qur’aan and Sunnah:

1- Testing and trial, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“Do people think that they will be left alone because they say: ‘We believe, and will not be tested [la yuftanoon]” [al-‘Ankaboot 29:2]

i.e. that they will not be subjected to trial, as Ibn Jareer said.

2- Blocking the way and turning people away, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“but beware of them lest they turn you [yaftinooka] (O Muhammad) far away from some of that which Allaah has sent down to you” [al-Maa’idah 5:49]

Al-Qurtubi said: this means blocking your way and turning you away.

3- Persecution, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“Then, verily, your Lord for those who emigrated after they had been put to trials [futinoo] and thereafter strove hard and fought (for the Cause of Allaah) and were patient, verily, your Lord afterward is, Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful” [al-Nahl 16:110]

Put to trial means persecuted.

4- Shirk and kufr, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allaah)” [al-Baqarah 2:193]

Ibn Katheer said: this means shirk (worshipping others besides Allaah).

5- Falling into sin and hypocrisy, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“(The hypocrites) will call the believers: “Were we not with you?” The believers will reply: “Yes! But you led yourselves into temptations [fatantum anfusakum], you looked forward for our destruction; you doubted (in Faith) and you were deceived by false desires” [al-Hadeed 57:14]

Al-Baghawi said: i.e. you made yourselves fall into hypocrisy and you destroyed yourselves by means of sin and whims and desires.

6- Confusing truth with falsehood, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“And those who disbelieve are allies of one another, (and) if you (Muslims of the whole world collectively) do not do so [i.e. become allies, as one united block under one Khaleefah (a chief Muslim ruler for the whole Muslim world) to make victorious Allaah’s religion of Islamic Monotheism], there will be Fitnah (wars, battles, polytheism) and oppression on the earth, and a great mischief and corruption (appearance of polytheism)”[al-Anfaal 6:73]

What this means is that “unless believers are taken as close friends instead of disbelievers, even if they are relatives, there will be fitnah on earth, i.e., truth will be confused with falsehood.” This is how it is explained in Jaami’ al-Bayaan by Ibn Jareer.

7- Misguidance, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“And whomsoever Allaah wants to put in Al‑Fitnah (error, because of his rejecting of Faith), you can do nothing for him against Allaah” [al-Maa'idah 5:41]

The meaning of fitnah here is misguidance. Al-Bahr al-Muheet by Abu Hayaan, 4/262.

8- Killing and taking prisoners, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“if you fear that the disbelievers may put you in trial [yaftinakum] (attack you)”

[al-Nisa’ 4:101]

This refers to the kaafirs attacking the Muslims whilst they are praying and prostrating, in order to kill them or take them prisoner, as stated by Ibn Jareer.

9- Difference among people and lack of agreement, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“and they would have hurried about in your midst (spreading corruption) and sowing sedition among you [yabghoonakum al-fitnah]” [al-Tawbah 9:47]

i.e. they would have stirred up differences amongst you, as it says in al-Kashshaaf, 2/277.

10-Insanity, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“Which of you is afflicted with madness (maftoon)” [al-Qalam 68:6] Here it means madness.

11-Burning with fire, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, those who put into trial [fatanoo] the believing men and believing women (by torturing them and burning them)”[al-Burooj 85:10]

Ibn Hajar said: the meaning may be understood from the context. (al-Fath 11/176)

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng
The Polytheism and Disbelief of the Christians

Allah states that the Christians are disbelievers because of their claim that `Isa, son of Maryam, one of Allah's servants and creatures, is Allah. Allah is holier than what they attribute to Him. Allah then reminds them of His perfect ability over everything and that everything is under His complete control and power,

[قُلْ فَمَن يَمْلِكُ مِنَ اللَّهِ شَيْئاً إِنْ أَرَادَ أَن يُهْلِكَ الْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ وَأُمَّهُ وَمَن فِى الاٌّرْضِ جَمِيعاً]

(Say: "Who then has the least power against Allah, if He were to destroy the Messiah, son of Maryam, his mother, and all those who are on the earth together") Therefore, if Allah wills to do that, who would be able to stop Him or prevent Him from doing it Allah then said,

[وَللَّهِ مُلْكُ السَّمَـوَتِ وَالاٌّرْضِ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَآءُ]

(And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them. He creates what He wills.) All things in existence are Allah's property and creation and He is able to do everything. He is never asked about what He does with His power, domain, justice and greatness so this refutes the Christian creed, may Allah's continued curses be upon them until the Day of Resurrection.

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=5&tid=13560

Shirk is worse than Killing

Since Jihad involves killing and shedding the blood of men, Allah indicated that these men are committing disbelief in Allah, associating with Him (in the worship) and hindering from His path, and this is a much greater evil and more disastrous than killing. Abu Malik commented about what Allah said:

[وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ]

(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) Meaning what you (disbelievers) are committing is much worse than killing.'' Abu Al-`Aliyah, Mujahid, Sa`id bin Jubayr, `Ikrimah, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, Ad-Dahhak and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that what Allah said:

[وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ]

(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) "Shirk (polytheism) is worse than killing.''[/QUOTE]

KAOSKTRL
Nov 9, 2005, 01:51 AM
I would appreciat if you would stop trying to hijack Islam,
Good muslims like it straight and not apologized for .
If you don't like Islam leave it ,
And run for your life as you will lose your head traitor.
Kafir need to know what Islam is and fear and submit
They don't have to like it or agree .
Hell fire for you hypocrite.

Morganite
Nov 9, 2005, 05:44 AM
G$-450 said:

"Morganite's post about the dead sea scrolls and the Gospel of Barnabes
proves that Jesus was never crucified, So how could any man have known
this 1400 years ago when the Dead Sea Ccrolls appeared 1946?"


MORGANITE made no mention of the Gospel of Barnabas and no reference to the cruxifixion or otherwise, of Jesus.


Imagination is a good thing unless it gets out of control and reads things that are not written. That is a more serious matter of schizophrenia.





MORGANITE

:)

Morganite
Nov 9, 2005, 05:47 AM
I would appreciat if you would stop trying to hijack Islam,
good muslims like it straight and not apologized for .
If you dont like Islam leave it ,
and run for your life as you will lose your head traitor.
Kafir need to know what Islam is and fear and submit
they dont have to like it or agree .
Hell fire for you hypocrite.


Allah is said to be munificent so why can't his followers be municifent? Why all the talk of blood and beheading? Is it to make converts through fear? I know good Muslims and they do not use wild talk like crazy killers. They please Allah. Murderers who hide behind his name do not please Allah.






MORGANITE



:eek:

KAOSKTRL
Nov 9, 2005, 06:06 AM
Allah is said to be munificent so why can't his followers be municifent? Why all the talk of blood and beheading? Is it to make converts through fear? I know good Muslims and they do not use wild talk like crazy killers. They please Allah. Murderers who hide behind his name do not please Allah.

The Quran teaches
Mohammed is the glorious pattern for life.
Murder, theft, rape, and terror are the examples he
Left in the, sunnah, hadith and Al Sira.

Morganite
Nov 9, 2005, 06:47 AM
The Quran teaches
Mohammed is the glorious pattern for life.
Murder, theft, rape, and terror are the examples he
left in the, sunnah, hadith and Al Sira.


Let me guess - you are anti-Islam pretending to be a Muslim, but you are a flamer, right?

:eek:


MORGANITE

KAOSKTRL
Nov 9, 2005, 06:56 AM
I defend Islamic scripture from people who
Will lie and try to create a false inage of Islam. .
I am not a muslim.
I don't know what a flamer is.
Im not a troll .
Im a full time defender Of Islam.24/7/365

G4-450
Nov 9, 2005, 11:03 AM
I defend Islamic scripture from people who
will lie and try to create a false inage of Islam. .
I am not a muslim.
I dont know what a flamer is.
Im not a troll .
Im a full time defender Of Islam.24/7/365

You lied about it, period and a liar and YOU KNOW IT well,

You where banned before and came back to post here for the first time, what else does a hypocrite do to win his argument "but cheat himeslf out of the truth" which is all you do, sorry for the SLAPP, :cool:

But I don't mind you proving that your also what is referred to a Mamon in the bible.


24. No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mamon.

Mam·mon P Pronunciation Key (mmn)
n.
1. Bible. Riches, avarice, and worldly gain personified as a false god in the New Testament.
often mammon Material wealth regarded as having an evil influence.

NeedKarma
Nov 9, 2005, 11:33 AM
I would appreciat if you would stop trying to hijack Islam,
good muslims like it straight and not apologized for .
If you dont like Islam leave it ,
and run for your life as you will lose your head traitor.
Kafir need to know what Islam is and fear and submit
they dont have to like it or agree .
Hell fire for you hypocrite.
What does the bolded part mean?

G4-450
Nov 9, 2005, 11:39 AM
What does the bolded part mean?
He is trying to say that islam is a peacefull loving religion which Abraham set up for all humanity and stands against devision between racial complexity or national racists like him, who is a nazi.


Read his 2nd post here, he said some nazis ( aka racist psycho killers) are good people.

NeedKarma
Nov 9, 2005, 12:15 PM
He is trying to say that islam is a peacefull loving religion which Abraham set up for all humanity and stands against devision between racial complexity or national racists like him, who is a nazi.


read his 2nd post here, he said some nazis ( aka racist psycho killers) are good people.
Actually I thought it referred to what happened if you ever decided to leave the religion. Perhaps he can enlighten me on that.

G4-450
Nov 9, 2005, 12:59 PM
If your into hatred, anti semiticism and nazism maybe, I am sure he will enlighten you with fire.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 9, 2005, 02:02 PM
What does the bolded part mean?
It means good muslims will kill him for being a traitort to islam something he needs to be remind of when he want to paint Islam as a rational choice.
Not all muslims are evil but Islam is just like not all nazus were bad but nazism is the same thngs islam some part of the Quran and hadith are almost indistinguishable from Mien Kampf.
I really need to get to putting that all together as a gameshow Hitler or Mohammeed.


"Existence impels the Jew to lie, just as it compels the inhabitants of Northern countries to wear warm clothing" -Mein Kampf, p. 305

"...the Jews are a nation of liars...the Jews are a treacherous, lying, and evil people." -Ishaq Hadith 240

KAOSKTRL
Nov 9, 2005, 02:11 PM
And I will be happey to direct to to where you can probalby find answers to questions you may have about Islam. Or answer them straight up either way,
I won't tell you something you cannot confirm if you know what question to ask.
If I don't know where to find something it one of my friends may .
Pretty huge site you guys have here.

NeedKarma
Nov 9, 2005, 05:11 PM
It means good muslims will kill him for being a traitort to islam
So let me see if I understand this: if you decide to leave islam then your fellow muslims can kill you for that?

KAOSKTRL
Nov 9, 2005, 06:18 PM
Punishing apostasy not arbitrary interpretation
Abu Mubarak
Aug 15, 05 3:55pm


Responding to Apostates will ‘die in unbelief’, Truth Seeker should understand that the death punishment for apostasy is held valid by the Syafie, Maliki, Hambali and Hanafi mazahib schools of thought. It is also accepted by the Syiah school of thought. The Hanafis, however, are in the opinion that female apostates should be imprisoned, instead of being sentenced to death.

Thus, punishing apostasy is not Mujahid Yusof Rawa’s interpretation of Islam. Neither is it the interpretation of Islam by PAS, the party he belongs to. This ruling could not have been arbitrarily interpreted by any individual or political party. This is not political issue.

The majority of Muslims in Malaysia are of the mazhab Syafie, including those in Umno. In fact, Dr Amran Kasimin, the Serdang Umno Division chief and Bangi state assemblyperson, wrote in his book Satu analisa mengenai murtad (pg 66):

‘Ulamak telah sepakat mengatakan bahawa hukum murtad ialah hukum bunuh berdasarkan hadis... Hukum bunuh ke atas orang murtad ialah qat’ie, iaitu hukum yang tidak boleh dipinda atau diubah suai. Hak Allah yang wajib dilaksanakan.’ (It is the consensus among the ulama that the punishment for apostasy is death. This death sentence is a very clear ruling, which cannot be amended or modified. It is the command from Allah to be implemented).

I can comfortably say, this opinion is the de facto in the Islamic fiqh, worldwide. It is not my intention to debate on this ruling. I’m merely emphasising that when a Muslim scholar says that freedom of faith doesn’t mean a Muslim is free to commit apostasy, he is merely conveying the existing Islamic worldview on the matter.

It is certainly not of their invention. Don’t blame the postman when you don’t like the bill in your letter box.

To force any Muslim scholar to retract this ruling is like forcing the postman to amend the bill they are entrusted to deliver to your letter box. It is clear to any just-minded person that this approach would not work.

Religion is not man’s invention. The best man can do with religion is to preach and practice its teachings. If the Islamic teaching says we should condemn apostates to death, what right do we have to amend this no matter how absurd it is in the eyes of the other faiths?

Umran Kadir argued that punishing apostates is in clear contradiction of Quranic teachings though there are many hadith which he could refer which would certainly negate his argument. In fact, the first person to declare war against organised apostasy was Abu Bakar As-Siddiq, the highest ranking among the Prophet Muhammad’s many companions.

Certainly, Abu Bakar, the most highly regarded of the Prophet’s companions, would not have acted against the teachings of the Quran, which he understood very well.
http://www.malaysiakini.com/letters/39055

Freedom of worship ios a bedrock issue in western style democracies

Sa'id Raja'i-Khorassani, the Permanent Delegate to the United Nations from the Islamic Republic of Iran, declared, according to Amir Taheri, that "the very concept of human rights was 'a Judeo-Christian invention' and inadmissible in Islam. . . . According to Ayatollah Khomeini, one of the Shah's 'most despicable sins' was the fact that Iran was one of the original group of nations that drafted and approved the Universal Declaration of Human Rights."


http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_apos.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/relrpt/stories/s892997.htm

http://www.unhchr.ch/tbs/doc.nsf/0/ea6d4be9c79b3de3c125700b004da148?Opendocument

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/

That fact is at the core of Bush’s reshaping the ME theory bringing freedom to leave Islam with out earthly repercussion from devout Muslims.
Unfortunately his approach will take 30 generations and America will long since have fallen to islam by then.
Or best chance to survive is top end immigration and begin repatriation of all Muslims and French..

Be aware of the order of revelation
http://home.comcast.net/~deep_kemical/mindfilter/chronorev.html

This link is an essay that discusses the Quran quotes and corresponding Hadith applicable to put the issue to bed forever.
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=3856

KAOSKTRL
Nov 9, 2005, 06:23 PM
Apologists' notions of a tolerant, multi-cultural, pluralistic Islam crumbles to dust upon careful examination of Islamic texts as well as an honest, unrefined, politically-incorrect look at its history.

Intolerance of other religions was a staple of Muhammad's prophecy, and this has been pointed out on numerous occasions, citing authoritative Muslim sources exclusively.

Having a complete understanding of the meaning of jihad in Islamic jurisprudence, I've moved on to studying its history, using the later years of Muhammad's life as well as the rule of the "Rightly Guided" caliphs as a starting point.

Right off the bat, we learn that after the prophet's death, several of the previously converted tribes of Arabia apostasized (rejected Islam). Abu Bakr then began a series of campaigns known as the Riddah Wars, which translates literally to Wars of Apostasy.

'No compulsion in religion' is a verse that is often used as a deflection against dozens upon dozens of other verses from several sources of Islamic doctrine that state otherwise. But if Bakr, the first of the Rightly Guided--ie. The Caliphs who served the prophet during his lifetime--felt the need to 'compel' these apostates to return to Islam or face the sword, why should it be any different today?

Bakr's letter to the apostate tribes:

I have learnt with regret that under the misguidance of the Devil you have apostatized from Islam, the true faith of God. I am sending to you a Muslim force consisting of the Muhajreen and the Ansar. I have instructed them not to launch the attack against you, without offering you lslam in the first instance. He who repents, re-enters the fold of Islam, desists from hostile activities against Islam, and does good deeds will be forgiven and granted amnesty. He who refuses to accept Islam, and persists in hostilities will be given no quarter. Force will be used against him, and it will not be possible for him to avert that Allah has ordained for him. Such persons will be put to sword, slaughtered, or burnt to death. Their women and children will be taken captive. Nothing short of allegiance to Islam will be accepted. If after considering this warning, any person seeks his refuge in Islam, such faith will stand him in good stead. But he who persists in his apostasy will never be able to humble God. I have instructed my envoys that they should read this message of mine in public gatherings. Calling the Azan will be regarded as an indication of the acceptance of Islam. If there is no Azan this will be taken to mean that the tribe persists in its apostasy. [LINK]

Was Bakr an extremist who twisted Qur'anic verse to justify evil? Why would a tolerant, pluralistic ideology feel the need to use force to bring apostates back into the fold? Apostates were put to the sword at Zafar, Naqra and Yamamah in 632 CE. as well as Bahrain, Oman, Mahrah Yemen, and Hadramaut the following year.

All because they turned their backs to Islam.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 9, 2005, 07:18 PM
11/9/05
International Religious Freedom Report 2005: Iran
Released by US State Department, The Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor

There was no substantive change in the status of respect for religious freedom during the reporting period. Members of the country's religious minorities--including Sunni and Sufi Muslims, Baha'is, Zoroastrians, Jews, and Christians--reported imprisonment, harassment, intimidation, and discrimination based on their religious beliefs. Government actions created a threatening atmosphere for some religious minorities, especially Baha'is, Jews, and evangelical Christians.

The U.S. Government makes clear its objections to the Government's treatment of religious minorities through public statements, support for relevant U.N. and nongovernmental organization (NGO) efforts, as well as diplomatic initiatives among all states concerned about religious freedom in the country. Since 1999, the Secretary of State has designated Iran as a "Country of Particular Concern" under the International Religious Freedom Act for its particularly severe violations of religious freedom.

In December 2003, the U.N. General Assembly passed Resolution 58/195 on the human rights situation in the country that expressed serious concern about the continued discrimination against religious minorities by the Government. In the fall of 2004, the U.N. General Assembly passed a resolution condemning the human rights situation in Iran.

Section I. Religious Demography

The country has an area of approximately631,660 square miles, and its population is an estimated 69 million. The population is approximately 97 percent Muslim, of which an estimated 89 percent are Shi'a and 8 percent are Sunni, mostly Turkmen, Arabs, Baluchs, and Kurds living in the southwest, southeast, and northwest. Sufi Brotherhoods are popular, but there are no reliable figures available regarding the size of the Sufi population.

According to the country's most recent official national census, taken in 1996, there were an estimated 59.8 million Muslims, 30,000 Zoroastrians, 79,000 Christians, and 13,000 Jews, with 28,000 "others" and 47,000 "not stated."

Baha'is, Jews, Christians, Mandaeans, and Zoroastrians constitute less than 1 percent of the population combined. The largest non-Muslim minority is the Baha'i community, which has an estimated 300,000 to 350,000 adherents throughout the country. Credible estimates on the size of the Jewish community vary from 20,000 to 30,000. This figure represents a substantial reduction from the estimated 75,000 to 80,000 Jews who resided in the country prior to the 1979 Islamic revolution. According to U.N. figures, there are approximately 300,000 Christians, the majority of whom are ethnic Armenians. Unofficial estimates indicate an Assyrian Christian population of approximately 10,000. There also are Protestant denominations, including evangelical churches. The U.N. Special Representative reported that Christians are emigrating at an estimated rate of 15,000 to 20,000 per year. The Mandaeans, a community whose religion draws on pre-Christian gnostic beliefs, number approximately 5,000 to 10,000 persons, with members residing primarily in Khuzestan in the southwest.

The Government estimates the Zoroastrian community at approximately 30,000 to 35,000 adherents; however, Zoroastrian groups cite an estimated 60,000 adherents. Zoroastrians mainly are ethnic Persians concentrated in the cities of Tehran, Kerman, and Yazd. Zoroastrianism was the official religion of the pre-Islamic Sassanid Empire and thus played a central role in the country's history.

Section II. Status of Religious Freedom

Legal/Policy Framework

The Government restricts freedom of religion. The Constitution declares the "official religion of Iran is Islam and the doctrine followed is that of Ja'fari (Twelver) Shi'ism." All laws and regulations must be consistent with the official interpretation of the Shari'a (Islamic law). The Constitution states that "within the limits of the law," Zoroastrians, Jews, and Christians are the only recognized religious minorities who are guaranteed freedom to practice their religion; however, members of these recognized minority religious groups have reported imprisonment, harassment, intimidation, and discrimination based on their religious beliefs. Adherents of religions not recognized by the Constitution do not enjoy freedom to practice their beliefs. This restriction seriously affects adherents of the Baha'i Faith, which the Government regards as a heretical Islamic group with a political orientation that is antagonistic to the country's Islamic revolution. However, Baha'is view themselves not as Muslims, but as an independent religion with origins in the Shi'a Islamic tradition. Government officials have stated that, as individuals, all Baha'is are entitled to their beliefs and are protected under the articles of the Constitution as citizens; however, the Government has continued to prohibit Baha'is from teaching and practicing their faith.

The tricameral government structure is ruled over by a supreme religious jurisconsult, or "Supreme Leader." This Supreme Leader, chosen by a group of 83 Islamic scholars, oversees the State's decision-making process. All acts of the Majlis (legislative body or parliament) must be reviewed for conformity with Islamic law and the Constitution by the Council of Guardians, which is composed of six clerics appointed by the Supreme Leader, as well as six Muslim jurists (legal scholars) nominated by the Head of the Judiciary and approved by the Majlis.

The Ministry of Islamic Culture and Guidance (Ershad) and the Ministry of Intelligence and Security (MOIS) monitor religious activity closely. Adherents of recognized religious minorities are not required to register individually with the Government; however, their communal, religious, and cultural events and organizations, including schools, are monitored closely. Registration of Baha'is is a police function. The Government has pressured evangelical Christian groups to compile and submit membership lists for their congregations, but evangelicals have resisted this demand. Non-Muslim owners of grocery shops are required to indicate their religious affiliation on the fronts of their shops.

Restrictions on Religious Freedom

By law and practice, religious minorities are not allowed to be elected to a representative body or to hold senior government or military positions; however, 5 of a total 270 seats in the Majlis are reserved for religious minorities. Three of these seats are reserved for members of the Christian faith, two seats for the country's Armenian Christians, and one for Assyrians and Chaldeans. There is also one seat for a member of the Jewish faith, and one for a member of the Zoroastrian faith. While members of the Sunni Muslim minority do not have reserved seats in the Majlis, they are allowed to serve in the body. Members of religious minorities, including Sunni Muslims, are allowed to vote. All of Iran's minority religions, including Sunni Muslims, are barred from being elected President.

All religious minorities suffer varying degrees of officially sanctioned discrimination, particularly in the areas of employment, education, and housing. The Government does not protect the right of citizens to change or renounce their religious faith. Apostasy, specifically conversion from Islam, may be punishable by death; however, there were no reported cases of the death penalty being applied for apostasy during the reporting period.
Members of religious minorities, excluding Sunni Muslims, are prevented from serving in the judiciary and security services and from becoming public school principals. Applicants for public sector employment are screened for their adherence to and knowledge of Islam. Government workers who do not observe Islam's principles and rules are subject to penalties. The Constitution states that the country's army must be Islamic and must recruit individuals who are committed to the objectives of the Islamic revolution; however, in practice no religious minorities are exempt from military service.
http://www.payvand.com/news/05/nov/1072.html

G4-450
Nov 9, 2005, 10:15 PM
LOL

The way those links are trying to paint Islam (submit to god's will) not only prove that they where never muslims, but fundamentalists racist themselves and far from been peace makers.

Anyone who says that islam (submission to God's will) is a violent religion and claims that it teaches just this while giving examples of fundamentalism about it are not only refuting peace but proving there place as a fundamentalists worse then those who fall from been true muslims.

Even muslims do not judge religions by the people, but rather the people by what they practice wether they are in breech of there religion or violating human rights., something the people on these websites evidently never did but yet fundamentally attack islam for U.S. political interests against arabic countries to loot oil.

If anyone was really interested in God and heard about a book in arabic, preserved, then in all honestly they would read it in arabic or parts of it like that to learn more, but many rejected it out of anti semitic-ism just like they rejected Hebrew.

So if everything those posts where true i would not be saying this and i would of agreed with you, but the facts show that only a person *blinded by greed and *ignorance would fail to see the difference between a "fundamentalist's interest in a war" and "the gospel of unity", maybe you like been submissive to nazi government rather then God (what islam means)


*They are blinded by there greed and use excuses to cheat others of there equal rights and practice thievery and racism.

and

They are Ignorant because the lusts of there greed caused them to turn a blind eye on there crimes prevented them from understanding what they are actually saying in arabic against is that they hate to do God's will and those who do.


So the links you point to are U.S. CIA propaganda and identical to the kinds of reports nazis made about Jews once to the German Public, they BRAINWASHED the German people to give up there rights to buy more time in order to loot and murder the people they hated out of selfish misery. Buying time is what all all previous lying permeative thinking men did and still do apparently, and the U.S. is doing the same in iraq against arabs while blaiming islam as a paradox game.

The nazis even abused the word science to convince people that the jews had defected genes to support racial theories while they expanded breweries to keep everyone drunk like the suckerswho voted for the propagandist HITLER. the U.S. is trying to spread the same thing about Islam when it was the muslims who said the earth was round and this took 500 years for europe to accept.

The Nazis had the German public so scared from false media using propaganda that xenophobia was the norm, been so that they where cowards proves that your been one too now, these people where scared of there own shadows and denied been human.

So are you doing all this because you're a xenophobe racist coward or simply did not understand?
:D

KAOSKTRL
Nov 9, 2005, 11:49 PM
OH yeah, the perfect unchangeable word of allah written by the pen in space before time.

4.89. They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliyâ' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allâh (to Muhammad ). But if they turn back (from Islâm), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliyâ' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them
َhttp://infidels.kafirnation.com/english/surah4.html

G4-450
Nov 10, 2005, 12:03 AM
[4.88] What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him.
[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
So your saying that people should not stand up if attacked by those blinded by there lusts for greed and power who think what they posses makes them better people over the lives of others?

People lacking faith in life is not a new thing, they are scared and it is a natural. it is when they are surrounded by a materialist society which they "think" that money will be the ticket to getting there needs and respect but that they are apt to committing crimes against humanity for it.

So just because some people believe money makes them a better person does not prove that it is true does it?

Mabe you where raised in a society that teaches you wrong and you finally realized it later in life like Abraham did.


Religion is not really about living up to the expectations of others, it is about growing and understanding, and I am telling you that you seem to NOT want to understand something because maybe
1. you do not want to make the effort out of arrogance and fear. or
2. your surrounded by people who have expectations of you which you yourself know they are questionable of whose benefits they claim internally, not exteriorly as to your status and respect from them.


So if your going to re consider everything honestly then your going to have to face your own issues.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 10, 2005, 12:20 AM
Anti-Muslim? Not Me
By Robert Spencer
FrontPageMagazine.com | October 7, 2004

Twenty-five percent of Americans hold what AP calls “anti-Muslim views,” according to a story published Monday. AP added that “the poll found that people most likely to have negative attitudes were male, white, less educated, politically conservative and living in the South.” And, no doubt, wear overalls and drive pickups with gun racks and Confederate flag bumper stickers.

Working hard to dispel the prejudice of these benighted Bubbas is none other than the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR), which actually conducted the survey. They’re planning activities during the Muslim month of Ramadan to counter what AP characterized as one indication of “anti-Muslim views”: “a belief that the religion teaches violence and hatred.”

How’s that again? Americans are “anti-Muslim” because they think Islam teaches violence and hatred? With Muslims shouting “Allahu akbar” (Allah is greatest) while beheading civilians in Iraq and murdering children in Beslan, Russia, perhaps it’s a bit premature to convict this 25% of Americans of bigotry. With the leader of the Pakistani radical Muslim group Jaish-e-Mohammed, Maulana Masood Azhar, saying last year that “in Islam the only meaning of jihad was killing,” maybe that twenty-five percent is on to something.



But of course, CAIR maintains that all that is a hijacking of Islam. CAIR Board Chairman Omar Ahmad insisted that those who commit violence in Islam’s name “have nothing to do with Islam. People claim they are doing it for Islam, but it’s really in spite of Islam,” Ahmad said. And they have convinced Americans of this: “About two in three,” according to AP, “said they agreed that ‘the people who use Islam to justify violence are misinterpreting its teachings.’”



Maulana Masood Azhar himself was not so easily convinced. He declared that the misinterpreters were the Muslim moderates, saying that those who elaborated the ideas of the “greater jihad” and the “lesser jihad” were “against Islam.” The “greater jihad,” as American Muslim spokesmen never tire of reminding us, is spiritual struggle. The “lesser jihad,” they say, is warfare, but only for defense. In my book Onward Muslim Soldiers I detail how radical Muslims including Abdullah Azzam, Osama bin Laden’s mentor, and Hassan Al-Banna, founder of the Muslim Brotherhood (the first modern radical Muslim group), rejected the concept of the “greater jihad” as being founded upon inauthentic traditions of the Prophet Muhammad. Azhar evidently shares this view.



What’s more, from the standpoint of Islamic theology and tradition, the radicals have the better of the argument. The courageous ex-Muslim Ibn Warraq writer explains: “For every text the liberal Muslims produce, the mullahs will use dozens of counter-examples [that are] exegetically, philosophically, historically far more legitimate.” He adds that “it is time for moderate Muslims to question honestly the principles of their faith. To admit the role of the Qur’an in the propagation of violence.”



To admit the role of the Qur’an in the propagation of violence is simply to open one’s eyes and read the statements of Osama bin Laden and other radical Muslim leaders. Is to do this “anti-Muslim”? Certainly CAIR, as shown by this AP article, thinks of all such efforts as “anti-Muslim,” and the media uncritically accepts the group’s contention that to discuss the roots of terror in the doctrine of jihad is to hate Muslims. But in fact, to criticize the elements of Islam that give rise to terror is not to be anti-Muslim at all; individual Muslims themselves may not accept or even know about the doctrines that Osama and others use to justify themselves.



Moreover, to ignore these elements out of fear of being anti-Muslim plays into the hands of the jihadists by foreclosing on any honest examination of why they’re really doing what they’re doing — which foreclosure, of course, destroys the chance that any positive and truly effective steps can be taken to stop them.



It is not hating Muslims to ask them to remove the hate from their religion, and to accept the principles of human rights that are accepted everywhere else in the world. But will Omar Ahmad and CAIR admit this? I doubt it. Ahmad, of course, was reported as saying in 1998 that “Islam isn’t in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth.” He has since claimed that his remarks were misrepresented, but the reporter says she remembers his statement, if not his exact words, and declines to retract her story.


Is Omar Ahmad himself “anti-Muslim”?
http://www.jihadwatch.org/articles/

G4-450
Nov 10, 2005, 10:27 AM
Well all these so called anti semitic, anti whatever are ignorant racists bigots that barely make out anything even if they gathered in high numbers.

Unfortunately the media has and is all run by people who claim they are Jews in the U.S. but no one knows who is really Jewish anymore since many do not practice or if they are ultra orthodox they consider non jews VERMIN.

Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.

And your exaggeration of islam phoebes in the U.S. of A is false,
The only people backing this are the richy rich xenophoebsin washintong,

In fact AP has said repeatedly that reporters have been targeted the same way muslims and iraqies have in order to cover scare them from getting inromation about illegal US crimes against humanity, the US is ordered to kill reporters and have in the past and blamed the "al Quada" aka "the Base " in english, fundamentalists in iRaq or others elsewhere did it.
So I can not see how people believe the media these days when they could have indicted Bush for lies under oath since day one.

As of your kill kafir story, Islam has the same laws called the ten commandments, Jesus preached them as well.



Jesus said, "Keep the commandments." The man says, "Which Ones?" (Matt. 19:18 KJV). Jesus recites the 10 commandments. (Mark 10:19 KJV).

There is none good but One, that is, God." (Mark 10:18) (Matt. 19:17).
1. I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. Thou shalt worship no other god
2. You shall not make for yourself a graven image. You shall not bow down to them or serve them.

3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honor your father and your mother.
6. You shall not kill. (unless in defence against tyrants who do mischief in the land, or against the Talmud "oppresors")
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10. You shall not covet.


Exodus 22:20: He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

2. Leviticus 24:16: And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death.

Hmmmm, as I understand it, Exodus 22:20 demands that the children of Israel carry out what you call the struggle (aka Jihad in arabic) against tryany, how about you, can you see it yet?

So remember again, if your not a muslim, christian or jew unless you practice your religion, and all 3 faiths share these ten commandments.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 10, 2005, 01:09 PM
Stealing is a gift from Allah (http://www.google.com/search?q=booty++islam&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official)

KAOSKTRL
Nov 10, 2005, 01:11 PM
Lying is a requirement for muslims and is a gift from allah. (http://www.google.com/search?q=taqiyya&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official)

G4-450
Nov 10, 2005, 01:24 PM
All your links point to anti semitic "opinions" that refute to been good people and especially arabic and arabs. it is not only a hate crime but a sick pathological pattern of lies that demonstrates how well the U.S. brainwashed its public like the Nazis once.

If a book from God came to Germany in German we are not to refute it out of envy, and we know it is for all man kind, So it happened that the a Koran came to arabs in arabic for all mankind and is refused out of envy and hatred for arabs before even reading it just like you are.
Yet the human race can only be traced as far back as to the middle east near iran before people migrated where you now are because of the earth expanding, so we are all one race, the human race.

If you take the time to read the ten commandments and compare them to Islam's, they are identical all the way down to Jihad, only difference is that they are in arabic. Every Jewish and other religious scholar agrees that Abraham ( who existed before Moses) pre dates Judaism, and Islam is the religion of Abraham, and the Kabah was the house of worship for the one true God, the first real church ever. it is in arabia...

So if your from any of the 3 monothiest faiths and you practice, muslims have no problem with that, BUT, everything your saying about muslims having a problem and wanting to murder others for there faith is proven false according to the bible itself. for the koran makes it clear about who where the believing people of the book where from the hypocrite polythiests and liars, so they are not all one and the same at all in the koran.

Your just trying to confuse everyone by mixing the people who defend themselves against the US occupation with your racial theories to support the hate crimes committed against humanity in iraq over looted oil.
In this life you will only go so far been reckless with these crimes.

COLLECTIVE "opinions" by anti semitic racists are not facts but xenophoebic Temper Tantrums and you know it is true.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 10, 2005, 02:40 PM
G4 is the Quran you use available on line?

SSchultz0956
Nov 10, 2005, 03:52 PM
Question for G4: If islam isn't violent, how do you expolain the aggression of the Ottoman empire? (just curiously wondering what your answer is)

KAOSKTRL
Nov 10, 2005, 04:05 PM
Hell, how does he explain Mohammeds violence and cold blooded murder.

Khomeini accordingly delivered notorious rebuke to the Islam-is-a-religion-of-peace crowd: "Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those [who say this] are witless. Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by [the unbelievers]? Islam says: Kill them, put them to the sword and scatter [their armies]…. Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for the Holy Warriors! There are hundreds of other [Qur'anic] psalms and Hadiths [sayings of the Prophet] urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all this mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim."

G4-450
Nov 10, 2005, 10:33 PM
Have you any idea what was going on in Rome and the world during that time?

How did you expect Mohamed to liberate the believers from the hypocrite polythiests gangs who where willing to kill anyone over silly superstitions? Romans alone where addicted to paganism, we still see that going on today in hollidays and other rituels which embrace evil ideologies.

The rejection of God's words in the koran is completely racist, the jewish scribes also did it to Jesus, thy wrote many early "Talmud's" (sayings in hebrew aka hadeeths in arabic) in aramaic instead of Hebrew and then the gospals mysteriously sprung up in western latin greek instead of aramaic which is what Jesus spoke.

Bellow is the farthest arguments bigots go with the bible against islam. this is the climax and where they hit the wall, and where muslims have the evidence with arabic of there place with Abraham which they try to use as there way to deny they are in the wrong by mixing up blood lines with faith.

THEY SAY; In the Old Testament: " The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken. I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." (Deuteronomy 18:15 & 18)

This can't possibly refer to Mohammed. Mohammed is the descendant of Ishmael, and the Jews never looked at the descendants of Ishmael as "brothers." On the other hand Jesus fits the description "like unto Moses." Jesus was a Hebrew, as was Moses, while Mohamed was not. Jesus performed signs and wonders, as did Moses, and Mohamed did not. Peter, in the New Testament, left no doubt about the fact that this prophecy applies to Jesus. (See Acts 3:20-26)

In the New Testament: " But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me. "(John 16:26).

Muslims say that the Greek word which was translated "the comforter", actually means " the praised one" or "Mahmoud" in Arabic, in reference to Mohammed.

If you read what iti is saying carefully, you got a person who claims one son of Abraham is not like the others son while claiming they practice faith.

Abraham himself on the other hand, is the father of nations, founder of Faith in one God, so when you read the gospels you get a line up starting from one person down to Jesus, so these faithless racist liars pretend this is to do with a blood line meaning that some people have bad blood and the blood line of Jesus must not, basically using this to discriminate like the crusades did by killing Jewish and Christian arabs in spain once.


There are 2 facts that muslims hold against them in truth.
1. Ishmael was Abraham's first born., there is a intended typo in most bibles, which is written that Isaac was the sacrificial son, who was born later, if you read it you will see for yourself some scribes changed it, Jesus confronted them about these things and abusing the laws.

2. Anyone who mixes up there faith with blood lines obviously holds a testimony against themselves for been faithless, faith is the light which God sends down to man, God's wisdom, in order to guide them out of utter darkness., and Jesus not only told about Muhammed, but that God will choose another nation which will replace the children of Israel if they failed to keep there promise, Ishmael also had 12 triebs named after him


Fiath is nothing to do with blood, anyone can be Jewish, christian or Muslim.

So the fact that “Cain rose up against his brother Abel, and killed him” (Gen.4.8) and Jesus adds the comment “innocent Abel” (Mt. 23.25) proves that the family of faith is not like the family of the fathless, if you want to know who your family is, who the ones you can trust are just decide who you are first.

If you decide to be a polythiests, and love things enough to kill anyone who is a threat to your Gods, then you're the party of polythiests.

If you believe in god, and trust in his will to keep his commandments, then your a muslim, becuase in Matt.12 [50] For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

So all the murdering and bloodshed about islam and mohamed is false, the earliest muslims where attacked and muslims indeed spared believers, and let otehrs go as long as they left in peace.

AS FAR AS A KORAN OR BIBLE ONLINE;
All 3 versions
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

You can use various search engines as well
http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/simple.html

And bibles as well (Torah and Gospal) aka old testament search engines
http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/kjv/simple.html

KAOSKTRL
Nov 10, 2005, 11:24 PM
Mohammed cannot trace his linage to ishmeal ,
And the comforter was always the holy spirit Still is .
You, are into the wall.

G4-450
Nov 10, 2005, 11:51 PM
Mohammed cannot trace his linage to ishmeal ,
and the comforter was always the holy spirit Still is .
You, are into the wall.

Sure he can, he believed in God and the gospal of unity and had faith like all the prophets in the bible did after Abraham's ministry who where wiling to loose there lives standing by the truth with faith and kept his covenant, those who do are his family, no need for blood lines.

If blood lines mattered then why did Cane kill his brother Able?
“Cain rose up against his brother Abel, and killed him” (Gen.4.8) and Jesus adds the comment “innocent Abel” (Mt. 23.25).

And the holy spirit was allways and is Gabriel, the archangel. known as Jibreel in arabic.

Anyone who believes in the trinity has abandoned true christianity for a polythiests pagan religion and committed treason against God's first commandment (I am your lord God and there is no other) in the bible (torah and gospel) and the Koran,
This is the first commandment and it is the gravest sin punishable by death directly from God and anyone who believes in God knows it very well too that man's natural place in his world can not be if they deny there creator.

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord...

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.*

So You do not agree with Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammed about one God, the God of all man kind,
The trinity and holy ghost is biblical corruption from the enemies of Jesus themselves to decieve others from the truth, real Christians believe he was either God's son or simply a good man like all other prophets, although jesus been his son (which muslims do not agree with the son) or not Jesus still was sent with a mission from God to the children of israel, the koran calls him the messiah, christ.

you hit that wall with religion now, so your problem is not islam it is that you have racist issues here.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 11, 2005, 12:00 AM
Well aside from the idiotic nonsense in your earlier post about lineage.
We will address this idiocy.
So Christians and Jews have corrupted Islam and need to return to islam?

KAOSKTRL
Nov 11, 2005, 12:11 AM
You would be well served to put aside your isistance that mohammed was a prophet Of God.
He is an obvious fraud Im mean real obvious,
Islam isn't rocket science its not even a good knock off.
You desrve better.

Claims of racism and bigotry are not a good enough
Answer for the genocide and subjegation from the Quran.

G4-450
Nov 11, 2005, 09:53 AM
Well aside from the idiotic nonsense in your earlier post about lineage. we will go ahead and address this idiocy.
So Christians and Jews have corrupted Islam and need to return to islam?
LOL
Well lets see what a idiot is, hmm,

Mohammed did what Abraham would do, so I still can not understand where he did not fit in this picture of prophethood, only a this believer would say he was a murder, because he only killed who ever cursed God's name , who attacked believers and wanted to take back the kabah for pagan rites.

So I can not agree with you that he killed Jews or Christians, there are many scripts written about it but no evidence has ever been proven about what you say, its all propaganda and only racists use it to justify there hate crimes against semitic peoples.


Your ideology of blood lines came from ethnic inbred morons, everyone knows idiots or retardation comes from breeding with siblings, so your silly ideas that there is a genetic blood line in prophethood spells you out as a idiot and bigot racist who thinks God was a man and there father, yet its clear that the one true God can choose anyone who he created to be a prophet and send the holy spirit Gabriel to guide them.

So eat your heart out because Islam, Christianity and Judaism is here to stay until the end of time, and only the hypocrites like you are the ones who will perish.

LOL

G4-450
Nov 11, 2005, 09:58 AM
Claims of racism and bigotry are not a good enough
answer for the genocide and subjegation from the Quran.
You think Hitler was your prophet now?


Well genocides are usually committed by racist bigots, like your hero Hitler for one, who else was a bigger looser then him and how dumb could the German people be to of believers a dark haired guy that they where actually gifter above others and falloed him to hell.

Geeze, you should never use the word idiot because it gives you away.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 11, 2005, 11:09 AM
I was hoping you would be able to do more than shuck and jive , Calling people a bigot and ignoring the questions is going to work.
So Christians and Jews have corrupted Islam and need to return to islam?

G4-450
Nov 11, 2005, 05:00 PM
I was hoping you would be able to do more than shuck and jive , Calling people a bigot and ignoring the questions is going to work.
So Christians and Jews have corrupted Islam and need to return to islam?
They did? I never heard that before... LOL

The only history recorded between the Jews, Christians and the Muslims is that when the Jews where in power they committed genocides against other tribes from tribal favortism, and when the chrstians came along, they killed each other in different generations. even WW2 was a example of it with the Pope aproving it all.http://www.trosch.org/jpi/popekoran.jpg
But the Pope also missunderstood what the Koran said about the Jews too.

When Islam was completed, which is the book of all the prophets in the bible and a one universal brother hood, peace treaties where written, and it was the Jews and the Christians that had the problems with each other.

So who ever was not Jewish or Christian where enemies of all 3 faiths according to there Foundations in Abraham.

So islam never propagated hatred towards the Jews. only kafirs, and that s because it is the first commandment in the bible, and the Jews know it well.

The Koran specifically points to certain incidents where certain Jewish scribes wrote the babylonian Talmuds with there own hands and claimed they murdered Jesus, the Mesiah, The Christ, and that his mother was a harlet in order to say there books are hollier then God's, these where not real Jews who did this but hypocrites who made deals with Julias Ceaser and the roman Empire.

Mohammed demanded them to share there books with the world if they where from God, and they claimed there God was not the God of Mohammed, so what God is it that created these scribes that could not create Mohammed, satan?

Muslim means doing God's will, his commandments.
You can be a Jewish or Christian muslim, but it is like been a part time worshiper.

But islam teaches to speak out the truth, if they do not hear it it is because they are not ready or do not want to.

Most of the time, anti Islamist have always hated believers for they do not want to accept One True God created all mankind, instead they claim that God did not create other people and they hate others for there ethnicity or origin, and yes, this is bigotry, especially what Hitler did, so your denial of it only spells out your place in it.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 11, 2005, 05:49 PM
Have you ever read the Quran?

G4-450
Nov 11, 2005, 06:52 PM
Sure I have

I have read the Bible (torah, gospel, revelations) over 11 times, in Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew. and the Koran over 4 times now (referenced of-course)

But I am only using arabic as reference to the Yasuf Ali version when reading the Koran, which I have read about 3 times now out if the total 4 times ide say by looking at others which I found to be poor translations and missleading from the classical arabic..

The Koran is exactly what it says it is, a book cleansing all prior revelations in the bible of mortal man made inventions and confirming the things with stand by unity of mankind under one God, which is the same universal message all prophets made.

The whole point of prophethood was to guide people back to the very founder of the 3 monotheists religions, and that is ABRAHAM and the submission to the one true God,and not desires and lusts which take mens souls into perdition.

Faith is the guidance which are the ten commandments, if you practice these you will have paradise, try it..


The fact that even modern science is primitive compared to biblical and koranic evidence is amazing.

Like it is said in the Koran that certain people will get a taste of heaven and hell here on earth for there deeds. and there is a barrier between the evil people and the good people from a chemical there brains release, love releases a chemical which is positive while hatred and anger releases a deadly chemical which kills many of the person's abilities to grow.

Further more, in the Koran these barrier was demonstrated in nature with the 2 Oceans (Pacisif and Atalantic) separated in half down the middle! Sweet salt and sour salt water. like a invisible wall, and there was never anyone o prove this until 1994, and the koran was here 1400 years ago,

KAOSKTRL
Nov 11, 2005, 07:38 PM
Ok lets she where you are going with this you claim there are three great ambrahamic religions?What are they &
Which came first second and third?

KAOSKTRL
Nov 11, 2005, 07:42 PM
As for a "barrier between fresh and salt water" there is no such barrier at all and the Quran is wrong. The sweet waters enter the sea and eventually mix with the sea water. Anyone standing on a hill can see that when the water enters the sea (especially when it is muddy) it pushes the sea water aside and because of its momentum goes forward. In the mouth of the delta the waters seem to be separate but soon they merge. The Quran mentions that there is a barrier and the Quran is wrong. So the question of probability and chance is irrelevant because the Quran is wrong.

G4-450
Nov 11, 2005, 08:47 PM
“He has let free the two bodies Of flowing water, Meeting together: Between them is a Barrier Which they do not transgress.” [Al-Qur’aan 55:19-20]

In the Arabic text the word barzakh means a barrier or a partition. This barrier is not a physical partition. The Arabic word maraja literally means ‘they both meet and mix with each other’. Early commentators of the Qur’aan were unable to explain the two opposite meanings for the two bodies of water, i.e. they meet and mix, and at the same time, there is a barrier between them. Modern Science has discovered that in the places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them. This barrier divides the two seas so that each sea has its own temperature, salinity and density. 7 Oceanologists are now in a better position to explain this verse. There is a slanted unseen water barrier between the two seas through which water from one sea passes to the other. But when the water from one sea enters the other sea, it loses its distinctive characteristic and becomes homogenized with the other water. In a way this barrier serves as a transitional homogenizing area for the two waters. This scientific phenomenon mentioned in the Qur’aan was also confirmed by Dr. William Hay who is a well-known marine scientist and Professor of Geological Sciences at the University of Colorado, U.S.A. The Qur’aan mentions this phenomenon also in the following verse:

“And made a separating bar between the two bodies Of flowing water?” [Al-Qur’aan 27:61]

This phenomenon occurs in several places, including the divider between the Mediterranean and the Atlantic Ocean at Gibralter. But when the Qur’aan speaks about the divider between fresh and salt water, it mentions the:

7 Principles of Oceanography, Davis, pp. 92-93.

Existence of “a forbidding partition” with the barrier.

“It is He Who has Let free the two bodies Of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, And the other salty and bitter; Yet has He Made a barrier between them, And a partition that is forbidden To be passed.”
[Al-Qur’aan 25:53]

Modern science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh (sweet) and saltwater meet, the situation is somewhat different from that found in places where two seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuaries is a “pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers.” 8 This partition (zone of separation) has salinity different from both the fresh water and the salt water.

9 This phenomenon occurs in several places, including Egypt, where the river Nile flows into the Mediterranean Sea.

Prof. Durga Rao is an expert in the field of Marine Geology and was a professor at King Abdul Aziz University in Jeddah. He was asked to comment on the following verse:

“Or (the Unbelievers’ state) Is like the depths of darkness In a vast deep ocean, Overwhelmed with billow Topped by billow, Topped by (dark) clouds: Depths of darkness, one Above another: if a man Stretches out his hand, He can hardly see it! For any to whom Allah Giveth not light, there is no light!” [Al-Qur’aan 24:40]

Prof. Rao said that scientists have only now been able to confirm, with the help of modern equipment that there is darkness in the depths of the ocean. Humans are unable to dive unaided underwater for more than 20 to 30 meters, and cannot survive in the deep oceanic regions at a depth of more than 200 meters. This verse does not refer to all seas because not every sea can be described as having accumulated darkness layered one over another. It refers especially to a deep sea or deep ocean, as the Qur’aan says, “darkness in a vast deep ocean”. This layered darkness in a deep ocean is the result of two causes:

1 A light ray is composed of seven colours. These seven colours are Violet, Indigo, Blue, Green, Yellow, Orange and Red (VIBGYOR). The light ray undergoes refraction when it hits water. The upper 10 to 15 metres of water absorb the red colour. Therefore if a diver is 25 metres under water and gets wounded, he would not be able to see the red colour of his blood, because the red colour does not reach this depth. Similarly orange rays are absorbed at 30 to 50 metres, yellow at 50 to 100 metres, green at 100 to 200 metres, and finally, blue beyond 200 metres and violet and indigo above 200 metres. Due to successive disappearance of colour, one layer after another, the ocean progressively becomes darker, i.e. darkness takes place in layers of light. Below a depth of 1000 meters there is complete darkness. 10

2The sun’s rays are absorbed by clouds, which in turn scatter light rays thus causing a layer of darkness under the clouds. This is the first layer of darkness. When light rays reach the surface of the ocean they are reflected by the wave surface giving it a shiny appearance. Therefore it is the waves which reflect light and cause darkness. The unreflected light penetrates into the depths of the ocean. Therefore the ocean has two parts. The surface characterized by light and warmth and the depth characterized by darkness. The surface is further separated from the deep part of the ocean by waves. The internal waves cover the deep waters of seas and oceans because the deep waters have a higher density than the waters above them. The darkness begins below the internal waves. Even the fish in the depths of the ocean cannot see; their only source of light is from their own bodies. The Qur’aan rightly mentions:

“Darkness in a vast deep ocean overwhelmed with waves topped by waves”.

In other words, above these waves there are more types of waves, i.e. those found on the surface of the ocean. The Qur’aanic verse continues, “topped by (dark) clouds; depths of darkness, one above another.” These clouds as explained are barriers one over the other that further cause darkness by absorption of colours at different levels. Prof. Durga Rao concluded by saying, “1400 years ago a normal human being could not explain this phenomenon in so much detail. Thus the information must have come from a supernatural source”.


8 Oceanography, Gross, p. 242. Also see Introductory Oceanography, Thurman, pp. 300-301.

9 Oceanography, Gross, p. 244 and Introductory Oceanography, Thurman, pp.300-301

10 Oceans, Elder and Pernetta, p. 27.

G4-450
Nov 11, 2005, 09:10 PM
Ok lets she where you are going with this you claim their are three great ambrahamic religions?What are they &
Which came first second and third?

Abraham founded the first monotheists religion, he set up a house for prayer called the kabah in Arabia, he was not a jew or christian or even spoke hebrew, and he existed before Moses but yet the was biological grandfather of Jacob who changed his name to Israel, and where you got the children of Israel from.

The children of Israel where divided into 12 tribes, but Judah became a sect and Jesus was to reform them for he calledthe, the lost sheep of Israel, Jesus had 12 disciples to be asigned as there new leaders, judas presented Judah and exactly what Judah did to the rest of there brother tribes.

Jesus did not have any followers after he lived who believed he was crucified or a trinity, most of his followers where monothiests and murdered by pagan polythiests Romans who refuted the idea of one true God or that otehrs where nearly created by there Gods,
Saul, a jewish man, was one of the persecutors of the earliest Christians, been called Christian was a insult then as well,

Saul changed his name to Paul, and repented.
Later he delivered the gospels in western greek rather then aramaic with un known authors and some which contained similar names to the apostles of Jesus but never even met him., remember now, these where Jesus´s very own enemies who plotted to kill him all along.
http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/aotb.htm

Jesus promises another prophet after him who will comleate the revelations, this was Mohammed obviously since no other religion came about with in that time with such books and scientific facts today like the earth was round.

These 3 Faiths are based on the faith of Abraham in one God., they all broke into sects, and they all had prophets for this exact reason; to guide them back to the one God of Abraham.

While all these religions broke into sects (including Islam today) the basic fundamentally of Abraham faith is to believe in one true God, do his will (the commandments) and sincerely be devoted to truth with in and outward in your life in order to obtain peace and salvation in this life and the hear after.

This is what the Bible is about, it contains guidance from God, and people chosen by God (not people) which could be anyone from anywhere to deliver the message., which was completed by mohammed when he restored the HOUSE OF WORSHIP called the KABAH.

So if the jews knew better why did they not do it themselves rather then complain about islam and start blame games, obviously they where not jewish right?

Now if all this was a fairy tale or a movie, you would find it all easier to understand and also interesting about the little planet earth and all the life in it.

But the fact is, no one understands it unless they identify which role they play in it, because it mirrors the very soul of living beings!

LOL

Think about it.
You either take everything in this world for granted as yours to destroy or your accept that its all God's , including yourself and others and learn to live in it with peace of mind rather then been obsessed with how much of it your have before you died. there is a hear after according to all Books.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 11, 2005, 11:02 PM
Abraham founded the first monotheists religion, he set up a house for prayer called the kabah in Arabia
So where do these "facts" come from?
Lets try to keep these post brief OK .
Teach don't preach, prove don't dissimulate.

G4-450
Nov 12, 2005, 02:37 AM
So where do these "facts" come from?
Lets try to keep these post brief OK .
teach dont preach, prove dont dissimulate.

LOL, Your the one preaching to the world that Islam will come to kill you and how xenophobia got the best of you, yet your the ONLY one here terrified and probably never even met any muslims.

So look at the hole your digging yourself into, why in the world would you run al your life from people you do not understand who are human beings just like you and feel the same pain you do? "Struggle" aka Jihad, is in the bible and just because you cowered out to evil people and joined them does not mean others should die because your obsessed with this now.

You need patience to understand all this, chasing after other things will only bring you to a dead stop.

FOR THE 4th TIME, from the Bible and Koran;
God had asked Abram to change his name to Abraham when he was ninety-nine years old. (see Genesis 17:1-5). Abraham means "father of a multitude/many".

1-Abraham proved that love (worship) is human nature, and man is to only worship God who gives them and all living creatures life and sustenance.

2-Abraham rejected that worshiping the sun, the moon, racial ideology, objects, power or wealth as Gods can make a man a better person, and further more proved that they where been hypocrites about it when they where willing to kill him (Abraham ) to protect these things they claimed where Gods.

3-So after his own trials with polytheists aka Kafirs as you have been putting it, Abraham concluded that he had only God to turn to for salvation since people like his own father where willing to kill him in order to protect there false Gods. (like today, oil=$)

4-finally Abraham turns to God for salvation by offering his greatest love in the world as a sacrifice to show his loyalty, and this was his own first child Ishmael., Ishmael the eldest son was at that time thirteen years old. Isaac was born one year after the name change. (Gen. 17:15-21, 16:16 and 21:5)

5- The Book of Genesis Chapter 17: God said; "I will establish My Covenant with him as an everlasting Covenant for his offspring after him." (verse 19).

ISRAEL: Jacob aka Israel was the grandson of Abraham, and the father of the 12 tribes of Israel. (one knows today as Judah aka Jewish).

JUDAISM:This does not claim that Abraham was Jewish but that all 12 tribes made a there covenant with the one true God of Abraham, who Moses told them about.

CHRISTIANITY:[9] And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
[2] And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,

So according to biblical and Koranic history, this covenant is about faith not blood lines, wealth or land handed down through inheritance.


The polytheists where people who always committed the crimes of Genocide in the bible and during the age of Mohammed and the Koran,

Polytheists killed for the materialistic things (money, oil, etc etc.) that they believed improve there cowardly lives and considered there gods or as you can put it, things they worshiped which they depended on for everything; while the believers simply stood up against them in there defense for there right to live.

So for the record; Abraham lived BEFORE Moses was alive and the Torah (old testament) existed.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 12, 2005, 04:01 AM
Ok, so you are trying to prove Islam by using the torah and Ishmael.
Islam has no connection to Ishmael,
You need to prove some connection other than
Wishful thinking .
Redefining what offspring means is a nice trick and shows you know Mohammed has no connection to Ishmael.
But I’m thinking you had better consult God before you start messing around with the text,

In any case we have arrived at the point where you are making claims and have yet to produce any Islamic scripture or any scripture that supports your claim that Islam has anything to do with Abraham other than the word of a pedophilic rapist and a murderous liar,
That’s not a good enough reference,

Produce the scripture that proves Abraham ever went to Mecca and built the first Kabba,As you have cliamed in your earlier post. This scripture must not contradict any, other scripture as the Quran claims those scriptures are accurate and uncorrupted.

G4-450
Nov 12, 2005, 05:54 AM
Ok, so you are trying to prove Islam by using the torah and Ishmael. Islam has no connection to Ishmael, You need to prove some connection other than wishful thinking . LOL

speaking for yourself there; If Ishmael was Abraham's first born child, why does the Torah (old testament) say that is was Isaac who was to be the sacrificed son when he was born 1 year after? sounds like someone had more then wishful thinking in mind there when they changed this in the Bible, and why do such a thing when Both Ishmael and Isaac where the children of Abraham?

So, why not read it yourself for once.


Redefining what offspring means is a nice trick and shows you know Mohammed has no connection to Ishmael.
If you had any truth to say you would not be playing tricks would you?. this only exposes that you intended to do the same thing bigot Rabbis did with Judaism who Jesus confronted about playing God and mixing racial favoritism with claims that they where not God's Chosen to be examples of people who kept there oaths, but that they chosen because ethey simply where wrote a book called the talmud and it was Holier then God.

So what you just said is a perfect a example of what ends typical polytheists and hypocrites will go to when giving into evil and playing tricks in order to win a argument even if they deprive themselves from the truth.

God created every living thing, and God can choose who he wills and God is above all the things men say.


But I’m thinking you had better consult God before you start messing around with the text, LOL, my posts are just conclusion I came to, I used to think allot like you but with out the racist ideas you have.

I gave you clear references, so from here on it is up to you to make the effort and face the truth. and between you and God if your wiling to change your ways from decieving yourself by letting your hate get between it all.

Jesus said, No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.


God choose another nation according to Jesus, surely Jesus did not ask people to worship him; Matt.21 [43] Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Matthew 4:10
Then saith Jesus unto him, “Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve.

John 8:28
“I do nothing of myself.”

Acts 2:22
“Men of Israel listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as yourselves know.”
*
This is the God Jesus spoke about.


In any case we have arrived at the point where you are making claims and have yet to produce any Islamic scripture or any scripture that supports your claim that Islam has anything to do with Abraham other than the word of a pedophilic rapist and a murderous liar,
That’s not a good enough reference,
You have all

No, it is you that has been making claims, Mohammed only stood for the very same values Abraham, Moses and Jesus did, and the Jihad is a law in the Bible, I never thought so myself until I read it, so beware of those who lie about it.


Produce the scripture that proves Abraham ever went to Mecca and built the first Kabba,As you have cliamed in your earlier post. This scripture must not contradict any, other scripture as the Quran claims those scriptures are accurate and uncorrupted.

Do you know what "the Dome of the Rock" in Jerusalem really is?

And did you ever read; Psalms 84:4-6
Blessed are they that dwell in thy house (Kabah); they will be still praising thee, Selah. Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them; who passing the valley of Baca (Mecca) make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools.


And all Abrahamic faiths prayed like this;
Genesis 17:3 "And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,"
Genesis 17:17 "Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? And shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?"
Exodus 34:8 "And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped."
Numbers 20:6 And Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they fell upon their faces: and the glory of the LORD appeared unto them.
Numbers 16:20-22 "And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment. And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?"
Nehemiah 8:6 And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the LORD with [their] faces to the ground.
Joshua 5:14 "And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?"
Ezekiel 9:8 "And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?"
2 Chronicles 20:18 "And Jehoshaphat bowed his head with his face to the ground: and all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem fell before the LORD, worshipping the LORD."
Ezekiel 11:13 "And it came to pass, when I prophesied, that Pelatiah the son of Benaiah died. Then fell I down upon my face, and cried with a loud voice, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou make a full end of the remnant of Israel?"
Matthew 17:6 "And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid."
Matthew 26:39 "And he (Jesus) went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

KAOSKTRL
Nov 12, 2005, 07:03 AM
I didn't think so.
The Quran abrogates the Torah and gospel they have nothing to do with Islam .
Islam sublimates all other religions religions
Same values ?

"The Prophet (Muhammad) said: 'Do not stone the adulteress who is pregnant until she has had her child.' After the birth she was put into a ditch up to her chest and the Prophet commanded them to stone her. Khalid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and he cursed her. The gentle Prophet prayed over her and she was buried."
(Hadith No. Muslim 682)



John 8:7. So when they continued asking him, he lifted himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

You don't even know the history of Islam,
the kaba was built by adam or allah or both.

Tabari I:293 “Allah founded the House together with Adam. Adam’s head was in heaven while his feet were upon the earth. The angels were afraid so his size was reduced to sixty cubits (30 meters). Adam was sad because he missed the angelic songs. He complained, and Allah said, ‘Adam, I have cast down a house for you to circumambulate, as one circumambulates My Throne.’ Adam came to the House, and he and the prophets after him circumambulated it.”

Tabari I:293 “When Allah cast Adam down from Paradise, Adam’s feet were on earth while his head was in heaven.
He became too familiar with the angels and they were in awe of him so much so that they complained to Allah in their various prayers.
Allah, therefore, lowered Adam. But Adam missed what he used to hear from the angels and felt lonely. He complained to Allah and was sent to Mecca.

On the way every place where he set foot became a village, and the interval between his steps became a desert until he reached Mecca. Allah sent down a jewel of Paradise where the House [Ka’aba] is located today. Adam continued to circumambulate it until Allah sent down the Flood.””

And then it was built again by

Tabari I:335 “Seth stayed in Mecca performing the hajj pilgrimage and the lesser umrah until he died. He added the scrolls revealed by Allah to those of his father, Adam, and acted in accordance with their contents. He built the Ka’aba with stones and clay.”


and then it was built again by "abraham"
Tabari I:293 “That jewel was lifted up until Allah sent Abraham to (re)build the House. This is meant by Allah’s word, ‘And We established for Abraham the place of the House as residence.’” [Qur’an 22:26]

If you believe this gibberish that makes up the foundation of Islam you deserve to got to hell.

Why did did cain Slay able?

Morganite
Nov 12, 2005, 08:32 AM
Thank you for raising the level of this debate above the gutter into which G4-450 had dragged it.





MORGANITE

G4-450
Nov 12, 2005, 09:19 AM
I didnt think so.
The Quran abrogates the Torah and gospel they have nothing to do with Islam . Islam sublimates all other religions religions
Same values ? there is no religion in the Bible, non at all.

Joseph Campbell once said, There is no religion in the Bible, and all the jews organizations attacked him for this.

He continued to ask; Do you understand the view of exclusive religion? - "You worship God in your way, I'll worship God in his."

This would mean that they did not practice God's commandments.

So according to this historian Joseph Campbell, There is no religion in the Bible, the only religion which agrees with what the bible says is the religion of God, Peace (Islam)., this was to say that sticking to the rules of respecting each other like one family and feeding the needy is God's religion, So why did some break there peace? greed?


"The Prophet (Muhammad) said: '::::: The gentle Prophet prayed over her and she was buried."
(Hadith No. Muslim 682)
There is no such hadeeeth again, proof please (Hadith No.? Muslim 682)


John 8:7. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. Islam teaches exactly this, Adam fell from the garden but no one was born with sin that has not sinned in this life, so no one has the right to attack another person, and anyone who does lost his faith.

A again Islam is not acounted for anything non believers do.


You dont even know the history of Islam,
the kaba was built by adam or allah or both.

Tabari I:293 ::::::::::::::::and then it was built again by "abraham"
Tabari I:293 “That jewel was lifted up until Allah sent Abraham to (re)build the House. This is meant by Allah’s word, ‘And We established for Abraham the place of the House as residence.’” [Qur’an 22:26]
:p :p Tabarani is not the Qur'an, again you did not croos reference to seek the truth in in it all.


If you believe this gibberish that makes up the foundation of Islam you deserve to got to hell. LOL
Don't be a sore loser now, You admitted to changing God's words to play a trick on others here already, which only proved your place as a non believer in God and faithless racist xenophoebe. so does your comment not pos a threat to world peace now?

Let me guess, Jews could not be people from the middle east according to you ?

Why did did cain Slay able? Out of jealousy that God accepted Abel's sacrifice for he gave his best calf while Cain offered things he considered garbage, and this proves that Blood has nothing to do with faith, it's a choice. ----------------------------------------------------
Lets get this straight; Fear comes from not knowing, been in the dark, basically "ignorant" about something of concern which needs to be confronted.

So, Lets say someone had a concern about Judaism or Islam, and wanted to confront these fears or concerns, so for example they search on the internet with Google about it..,

żżżż Is doing a search like you did by going to a Jihad-Watch website gonna help you cross reference the information which concerns you alone or maybe cross referencing it for the facts????

Sounds to me like you did a search to feed the fire rather then confront your concerns, so do not blame others if you loose sleep over cheating yourself out of the truth and been that dishonest about it all.,

But of-course you could be that ignorant to not understand and simply side with others who want to conclude he same things you do in the dark about all of this, but then at some point in time you will have to move on with your life

So you do not need to be a genius to see that the people who live in fear are just ignorant in the sense that they are in the dark and need to confront something, problem is will they confront there fears or be taken by them.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 12, 2005, 10:20 AM
http://www.jamiat.org.za/aj/local/stoning.html

Question :

Recently a certain Yusuf Ismail of Durban had written to the "Daily News" of April 9, 2002 under the heading "Adultress stoning is not Islamic law". The brother blatantly rejects stoning to death the adulterer and adulteress as a "way out" , referring to it as "this barbaric custom". There was further confusion in the role of stoning when letters to the editor from non-Muslims said the things like "Is he (Yusuf Ismail) sure stoningis not Islamic Law?" We the ordinary Muslims are rather confused - can the Jurists / Ulama please clarify the Islamic perspective?

Answer : Matters related to Shariah are proven primarily from the Qur’an, Hadith and Consensus of the Muslims. If any question still remains unanswered then we refer to the works of the Great Jurists of the past.

The matter under discussion i.e. adultery and the stoning of the adulterers is clearly established in the Holy Quran, Hadith and the consensus of the Sahabah (Radiallaahu Anhum) i.e. the Companions of the Holy Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam).

Allah Ta’ala mentions in Verse 15 of Sura An-Nisaa,

"And those of your women who commit illegal intercourse, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them, and if they testify, confine them (i.e. women ) to the houses until death comes to them or Allah ordains for them a way out." This way was explained by Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) in clear unconditional terms.

Ubaada bin Saamit (Radiallaahu Anhu) says, "Rasulullah r used to become over-burdened when Wahi (revelation) used to descend upon him and his face used to become pale. One day revelation descended upon him r and he had the same experience. After the revelation he r said, "Take (this command of Allah) from me. Allah has ordained "a way out" for them (adultress). A person married in a valid Islamic contract would be lashed 100 times and then stoned to death. An unmarried person will be lashed 100 times and then expelled from the city for a year."(Ahkaamul Quran -Vol 2 Pg 107)

So, "(Ahkaamul Quran -Vol 2 Pg 107)

So, " was not explained or interpreted by human logic, but was a revelation from Allah Ta’ala. Similar are the examples of salaat, zakaat and other obligations in Shariah. The pragmatic method of salaat and zakaat is not found in the Qur’an, nor is any human using his limited intellect permitted to interpret them.

Every Muslim understands and believes very firmly that the method and times for salaah as well as the details pertaining to zakaat that were taught by Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) is the divine way shown by Allah Ta’ala through revelation.

No Muslim in a sane state of mind can negate this.

In the very same way Allah Ta’ala has explained that He will ordain " was not explained or interpreted by human logic, but was a revelation from Allah Ta’ala. Similar are the examples of salaat, zakaat and other obligations in Shariah. The pragmatic method of salaat and zakaat is not found in the Qur’an, nor is any human using his limited intellect permitted to interpret them.

Every Muslim understands and believes very firmly that the method and times for salaah as well as the details pertaining to zakaat that were taught by Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) is the divine way shown by Allah Ta’ala through revelation.

No Muslim in a sane state of mind can negate this.

In the very same way Allah Ta’ala has explained that He will ordain ". This way was explained by Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) in clear unconditional terms

There are many other traditions of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) in which the "stoning of adulterer and adulteress". This way was explained by Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) in clear unconditional terms

There are many other traditions of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) in which the "It is not lawful to (spill) the blood of a believer who testifies that there is no Deity but Allah and Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) is the messenger of Allah Ta’ala, except on three occasions :

1.1 A n adulterer/adulteress
1.2 A murderer
1.3 A renegade
(Sahih Muslim – Vol 2. Pg 1006)

2. The incidents of the Sahaabi Ma’iz ibne Malik and the Ghamidya woman are clear cut and found in almost all the books of Hadith. They were both pelted to death after testifying to adultery.

3.Hadhrat Abdullah ibne Abbaas (Radiallahu Anhu) narrates the lecture that Hadhrat Umar (Radiallaahu Anhu) delivered whilst sitting on the pulpit of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam)

Hadhrat Umar (Radiallahu Anhu) said, " is clearly proven.

1. Hadhrat Abdullah bin Mas’ood (Radiallaahu Anhu) narrates that Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) said, "
Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol 2. pg 1009
Sahih Muslim Vol 2. pg 65

The famous commentator of Muslim Shareef, Imaam Nawawi (Rahmatullaahi Alayhi) mentions regarding this lecture of Hadhrat Umar (Radiallahu Anhu), that this fear that Hadhrat Umar (Radiallaahu Anhu) had, is found in the Khawaarij and those who agreed with them. Therefore this is a miracle of Hadhrat Umar (Radiallaahu Anhu) It is also possible that he (Hd. Umar Radiallaahu Anhu) learnt this from Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam).

4. Hadhrat Jabir (Radiallaahu Anhu) narrates that a person from the Aslam tribe came to Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) and admitted that he had committed adultery. He testified four (4) times. He was a married man. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) ordered that he be stoned.

Sahih Al Bukhari – Vol 2. pg 1006

5. Hadhrat Abu Huraira (Radiallaahu Anhu) says that when Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) gave the order of stoning, he Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam), said, "Verily, Allah sent Muhammad (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) with the truth, and revealed the Quran upon him. The verse regarding the stoning of the adulterer/ess was from amongst the verse revealed (in the Quraan). We read it, secured it and understood it. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) stoned and we stoned after him. I fear that with the passage of time a person might say, ‘We do not find mention of stoning in the Book of Allah and thereby go astray by leaving out an obligation revealed by Allah. Verily, the stoning of a adulterer/ress is found in the Quraan and is the truth, if the witnesses are met or there is a pregnancy or confession."

After acknowledgement Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) gave the order of stoning.

Sahih Muslim, Vol 2. pg 69

In this Hadith Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) clearly says that "By that Being in whose control is my soul, I will grant an order with the Book of Allah." is in accordance to the Book of Allah.

In light of the above, the Khulafa-e-Rashedeen and the leaders of the Ummah had all practised "stoning".

1. Hadhrat Uthmaan bin Affaan (Radiallaahu Anhu) stoned an adulteress. (Muwatta Malik pg 686, Nur Muhammad, Araam Baagh)

2. Hadhrat Ali (Radiallaahu Anhu) stoned a woman on a Friday and said, "stoning"Similarly, there is a consensus of the Ulama to disassociate from Islam, all those who argue about that which is found clearly in the Quraan, e.g. The Khawaarij are regarded as disbelievers because of rejecting the stoning of a married adulterer/adulteress.

There is much more that could be said on this subject. However this should suffice to make the Ummah understand the law of stoning. This should be an eye-opener for everyone, especially those who have a tendency to speak excessively, that one should rather remain silent if one is unaware of the Islamic ruling.

Uttering statements contrary to the Quraan and Hadith could lead to Kufr, which in turn drags one to the Hell-fire.

Hadith : Hadhrat Abu Hurairah (Radiallaahu Anhu) reported that Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) said, "I stoned her in accordance to the teachings of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) – (Sahih Bukhari Vol 2, pg 1006)

The Consensus of the Ummah

From the time of the Sahabah (Radiallaahu Anhum) to this date all believers are unanimous that a married adulterer/ess should be stoned. This consensus is reported by many of the famous scholars. A few are listed.

1. Hafiz ibne Hazam in Maraatibul Ijmain

2. Ibne Qudaama (Rahmatullaahi Alayhi) in Al Mughni, Vol 10. pg 118

3. Abul Waleed Muhammad bin Ahmed Al-Qurtubi in Bidaayatul Mujtahid Vol 2 pg 325.

Allam Anwar Shah Kashmiri writes in his book Ikfaarul Mulhideen, pg 57,

" (Sahih Bukhari.)

May Allah save us all from His Displeasure and Wrath and instill in us the Love for the true teachings of the Qur’aan and Sunnah. Ameen.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 12, 2005, 10:28 AM
Chapter 3: PRESCRIBED PUNISHMENT FOR AN ADULTERER AND AN ADULTERESS
Book 017, Number 4191:

'Ubada b. as-Samit reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Receive (teaching) from me, receive (teaching) from me. Allah has ordained a way for those (women). When an unmarried male commits adultery with an unmarried female (they should receive) one hundred lashes and banishment for one year. And in case of married male committing adultery with a married female, they shall receive one hundred lashes and be stoned to death.

Book 017, Number 4192:

'Ubada b. as-Samit reported that whenever Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) received revelation, he felt its rigour and the complexion of his face changed. One day revelation descended upon him, he felt the same rigour. When it was over and he felt relief, he said: Take from me. Verily Allah has ordained a way for them (the women who commit fornication),: (When) a married man (commits adultery) with a married woman, and an unmarried male with an unmarried woman, then in case of married (persons) there is (a punishment) of one hundred lashes and then stoning (to death). And in case of unmarried persons, (the punishment) is one hundred lashes and exile for one year.

Book 017, Number 4193:

This hadith has been reported on the authority of Qatada with the same chain of transmitters except with this variation that the unmarried is to be lashed and exiled, and the married one is to be lashed and stoned. There is neither any mention of one year nor that of one hundred.


Chapter 4: STONING OF A MARRIED ADULTERER
Book 017, Number 4194:

'Abdullah b. 'Abbas reported that 'Umar b. Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad (may peace be upon him) with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and, after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning, I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession.

Book 017, Number 4195:

This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Zuhri with the same chain of transmitters.


Chapter 5: HE WHO CONFESSES HIS GUILT OF ADULTERY
Book 017, Number 4196:

Abu Huraira reported that a person from amongst the Muslims came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) while he was in the mosque. He called him saying: Allah's Messenger. I have committed adultery. He (the Holy Prophet) turned away from him, He (again) came round facing him and said to him: Allah's Messenger, I have committed adultery. He (the Holy Prophet) turned away until he did that four times, and as he testified four times against his own self, Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) called him and said: Are you mad? He said: No. He (again) said: Are you married? He said: Yes. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Take him and stone him. Ibn Shihab (one of the narrators) said: One who had heard Jabir b. 'Abdullah saying this informed me thus: I was one of those who stoned him. We stoned him at the place of prayer (either that of 'Id or a funeral). When the stones hurt him, he ran away. We caught him in the Harra and stoned him (to death). This hadith has been narrated through another chain of transmitters.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/017.smt.html#017.4194

KAOSKTRL
Nov 12, 2005, 10:58 AM
And Islams stupidity reaches insane hights with this story not only do we see ADAM Is so feeble minded he has no recolection of having built the kaba his sons are fighing over their own sister,

Cain had a sister who was more beautiful than Abel’s sister.

Tabari I:308 “The story of Cain and Abel was told by Allah to Muhammad in the Qur’an saying, ‘Recite to them—meaning the people of the Book—the story of the two sons of Adam truthfully…to the end of the story.’”

“Cain had a sister who was more beautiful than Abel’s sister. Abel sought to marry Cain’s sister, but Cain refused and said, ‘She is my sister born together with me and she is more beautiful than your sister.
I deserve to marry her more than you do. Adam ordered Cain to marry her to Abel. However, he refused.”

“Cain and Abel offered a sacrifice to Allah to find out who was more deserving of the girl. On that day Adam was absent as he had gone to have a look at Mecca. Allah had said to Adam, ‘Adam do you know that I have a House on Earth?’
Adam replied, ‘Indeed I do not.’ Allah said, ‘I have a house in Mecca. So go there!’ Adam said to heaven, ‘Guard my two children.’ But heaven refused. Adam addressed the Earth with the same request, but the Earth refused.”

“He addressed the mountains but they also refused. He then spoke to Cain, who said, ‘Yes. You shall go and when you return you shall be happy with the condition you find your family.’”

“Abel offered a fat young sheep and Cain a sheaf of corn. Finding a large ear, Cain husked and ate it. A fire came down from heaven. It consumed Abel’s offering and left that of Cain. Whereupon Cain got angry and said, ‘I shall kill you to prevent you from marrying my sister. Abel said, ‘Allah accepts only from those who fear Him….’ One day Cain came upon him while he was asleep. He lifted a big rock and crushed Abel’s head with it.”

“Allah sent two ravens that were brothers and they fought with one another. When the one killed the other, it dug a hole for it and covered it with soil. When Cain saw that, he said, ‘Woe to me! Am I incapable of being like that raven, so as to conceal my brother?’ This explains Allah’s word: ‘And Allah sent a raven to scratch a hole in the earth in order to show him how to conceal his brother.’” [Qur’an 5:31]

It would be funny is it were not so damn sad. :(

KAOSKTRL
Nov 12, 2005, 11:17 AM
As renound an authority as you have proven yourself to be Tabari still holds a slight edge on you.

Tabari
Related: Biblical History Miscellaneous Biographies

(täbä´rē) (Abu Jafar Muhammad ibn Jarir at-Tabari) , c.839-c.923, Arab historian and commentator. The name Tabari was given him because he was born in Tabaristan, Persia. He traveled widely in Syria and Egypt, setting finally in Baghdad. He was admired for his erudition, his memory, and his industry. He wrote two great works, a commentary on the Qur'an and Annals of the Apostles and the Kings. The commentary became a standard from which later commentators drew. The annals are an attempt at recounting universal history from the creation to 915. Condensed from an even longer work, they are not a continuous narrative but contain differing versions of the same story and are thus a prime collection of Arabic sources. Tabari also taught law.

http://onlineislamicstore.com/tabari.html
Get your tabari here
http://www.onlineislamicstore.com/b3828.html
Your Ishaq here

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/authorit.html#A
And the names of your arguments here.

G4-450
Nov 12, 2005, 05:27 PM
LOL

Tabari again is not the Koran, and the jews where even more strict then anything you posted here, and even though these rulings have nothing to do with Islam directly and the fact that they are un authentic historical sayings which where never proven or put to practice, muslims only havethe Koran as evidence and nothig else is needed.

So why are you flaming by repeating your posts over and over, it is you has the problem, not islam.

If you think you could do better as a muslim then the people you are complaining about then prove it as one, there is no other reason for your attacking islam but from extreme fear and been a coward about it.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 12, 2005, 06:09 PM
Weak Hadith Defense

Summary: Sometimes a weak hadith defense is used to divert the criticism of Muhammad's behavior that is recorded in ancient traditional Muslim sources.
1. The Sahih Al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim collections are considered to be authentic historical records by orthodox Muslims. So, a weak hadith defense is unjustified when these sources are used to critique Muhammad sayings and behavior.
2. A weak hadith technically refers to the chain of narrators (isnad), reputation of the narrators, and the text of narration (matn). Even if there were a technical flaw in a hadith, it does not necessarily mean that the hadith is not an authentic one. Authenticity and weakness are two different concepts.
3. The Qur'an has less technical support for its authenticity than do many hadiths. Yet, it is considered authentic by traditional Muslims. So, if an historical saying must be rejected because it is technically weak, then much of the Qur'an would have to be rejected too.
4. Some Muslims use the weak hadith defense, because they approach Muhammad with their own wishful presuppositions. So, they automatically reject any hadith that does not meet the standard of their uncritical assumptions. Our beliefs should be grounded in historical reality: not wishful assumptions.
5. The third standard (matn) to judge the authenticity of a hadith is an illegitimate standard. Present-day beliefs don't determine the events of the past.


So there we see another down fall of muslims,
When confronted with authentic hadith they object to ,
As it is often a source of humialtion and discomfort,
They head for the nearest exits.
The quran teaches mohammed was a glories pattern for mulsim to follow,
But offers no example of that life .

One has to go to tabari ,muslim, bukari, and Ishaq to know what a muslims is supposed to do.
In typical Islamic fashion muslim"scholars "
Redact the online collections to remove the distressing facts just as Guillaume did with Ishaq.
It is like a night mare that just keeps going on and on,

I guess that what muslims deserve, for holding a pedophilic rapist as the best example for a muslim to follow.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 12, 2005, 06:19 PM
Oh and lets not forget the obligatory LOL.
That is always important to add to your increasingly meaningless posts now that your hategroup is being fully exposed right in front of god and everybody,
Don't worry, it will begetting significantly worse .

G4-450
Nov 13, 2005, 04:22 AM
Oh and lets not forget the obligatory.Which is the Koran alone... so your posts are irrelevant.

That is always important to add to your increasingly meaningless posts now that your hategroup is being fully exposed right in front of god and everybody, .Let us examine who is the hate group here and why your hijacking this topic with racist biased views.

With a little test that any mentally disabled or intoxicated person can pass hmmmm; Is not the Topic
Can we trust the Koran?
BUT, All your posts have nothing to do with the Koran at all, instead, your pointing at people as a fundamentalists bigot and blaiming them for it.


Dont worry, xit will begetting significantly worse
x. LOL, Hey Mr.Hater and Hypocrite, was that a hate threat now?

You sure have expressed allot of hate for someone who plays the blame game claiming it is others, and you only see the dark side of things which is what fundamentalism is about.

Conclusion;
You
-Claim that the nazis are nice people, and
-Admitted that you lied in order to play a trick by mixing genealogy before to make a racist point seem significant that Mohammed could not of been a line of prophets teaching Faith in one God, as if God did not create all man kind on earth.
-Lied that you had any faith in God since your too much of a coward, and again confused faith with death blood cults.

And from your very last sentance;
-Your the only one here prone to commit a hate crime and needs police and mental health attention since your illusions may leed you to attack a innocent person on the street from your insane patterns of "xenophobea", which is a build up of paranoid sympotms from the lack of communication with the rest of the world you missed out on.

LOL LOL,
the only thing you demonstrated here is that your a coward who dug himself a grave from the envy and lies you have against others in order to hide from your own shadows,
And you are posting all over the internet in hopes to find gualable people who like yourself believes the sky is falling in order to keep you company in your hiding place, this CURSE alone is your doom because you refuse to change your ways and lied.


Not everyone agrees with your sickness, it is a curse...
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/popekiss.jpg
Pope John Paul II; The Holy Qur'an is the word of God.

Koran [2.10] There is a disease in their hearts, so Allah added to their disease and they shall have a painful chastisement because they lied.

[9.68] Allah has promised the hypocritical men and the hypocritical women and the unbelievers the fire of hell to abide therein; it is enough for them; and Allah has cursed them and they shall have lasting punishment.

[17.99] Do they not consider that Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth, is able to create their like, and He has appointed for them a doom about which there is no doubt? But the unjust do not consent to aught but denying.

[59.16] Like the Shaitan when he says to man: Disbelieve, but when he disbelieves, he says: I am surely clear of you; surely I fear Allah, the Lord of the worlds.
[59.17] Therefore the end of both of them is that they are both in the fire to abide therein, and that is the reward of the unjust.

[4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Jesus (Isa) son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Jessus/ Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
[4.158] Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
[4.159] And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he JESUS (Isa) shall be a witness against them.

“I do nothing of myself.” (John 8:28)
“My father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)
“The Lord our God is one Lord.” (Mark 12:29)
*
Matt.13
[38] The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
[39] The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
[40] As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
[41] The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
[42] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
[43] Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Mark.12
[28] And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
[29] And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
[30] And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
[31] And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
[32] And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he

Koran;
[2.159] Surely those who conceal the clear proofs and the guidance that We revealed after We made it clear in the Book for men, these it is whom Allah shall curse, and those who curse shall curse them (too).
[2.160] Except those who repent and amend and make manifest (the truth), these it is to whom I turn (mercifully); and I am the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.
[2.161] Surely those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers, these it is on whom is the curse of Allah and the angels and men all;
[2.162] Abiding in it; their chastisement shall not be lightened nor shall they be given respite.
[2.163] And your God is one God! there is no god but He; He is the Beneficent, the Merciful.

We are all been tested in this life so beware.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 13, 2005, 06:55 AM
Anyone else care to comment?

G4-450
Nov 13, 2005, 07:28 AM
Anyone else care to comment?
LOL

Why not just change your ways man, do you really want to live your life paranoid about people and things you heard?

Adolph Hitler was a propagandist who scared a whole nation with lies that there was a threat, non of it was true, he was the criminal himself, real leaders do NOT run around letting there enemies get the best of them and there nations fall like he did committing crimes behind everyone's backs because he could not be a real leader.

So Respect goes both ways.

All your posts are "hear say" by people who do NOT believe in God,
Jihad is from and in the Bible, as well as many other so called sayings (hadeeths ) outside the bible called (Talmud's) which allow Jews to sleep with 3 year olds, steel from non jews and state that it would take 600 non Jews to claim the life of a Jew, and all the pagan rites of human sacrifices where added to Jesus outside the Gospels as well as sayings claiming he was a trinity, crucified and other ridicules things that have no place with God but to benefit people.

So are you going to condemn the Bible too now?

This topic is not about anything else but the concerns people had about the Koran.

NeedKarma
Nov 13, 2005, 07:39 AM
LOL


This topic is not about anything else but the concerns people had about the Koran.
So you are defending Islam then?

G4-450
Nov 13, 2005, 11:27 AM
So you are defending Islam then?
What does Islam mean?
And why are you also going of the Topic?

KAOSKTRL
Nov 13, 2005, 12:13 PM
Hitler lied to vilify the jews ,
Muslims are vilified when people speak
The truth about islamic scripture.

Islam is self indicting.

Muslims fought side by side with nazis and
Much of scripture is virtually indistinguishable from Mien Kampf.

Islamic scripture the Quran calls for the subjegation and eradication of all none muslims.

SUBJEGATE

9.29. Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allâh, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islâm) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

http://www.road-to-heaven.com/quran/english/9.htm

ERRADICATE

2.193. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâliműn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)

http://www.road-to-heaven.com/quran/english/2.htm

G4-450
Nov 13, 2005, 12:34 PM
Hitler lied to vilify the jews ,
Maybe Hitler was a orthodox Jew. they all say that about non orthodox jews.

Muslims are vilified when people speak the truth about islamic scripture. but you lied so... end of that story there.


islam is self indicting. Islam means (doing the will of God) submission. Satan swore that anyone who did not do God's will are his to indict, are you with the party of satan?


Muslims fought side by side with nazis and much of scripture is virtually indistinguishable from Mien Kampf. you sure they where muslims? I heard the nazis USED the Japonese, arabs and converted Jews from Spain to fight side by side for them.

Islamic scripture the Quran calls for the subjegation and eradication of all none muslims.

SUBJEGATE 9.29.
ERRADICATE 2.193. LOL
Are you sure it is only in the Koran or Islam that teaches to keep these comandments?

SUBJEGATE and ERRADICATE are titles by polytheists for polytheists, This explains why your scared for your life and hate the one true God who ordered death to polytheists by nature and law,

So while you fight for what you worship other then God (money, oil, anything else you depend on for sustanance), the believers are told to fight with God against you because you are in error by attacking them for this.

Read again where it is all from.

Allah is the same God in the Bible;
"All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman. (From the NIV Bible, 2 Chronicles 15:13)"

Exodus 22:20: He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Leviticus 24:16: And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death.

Mark 16:16: He that believeth not, shall be damned.

Malachi 2:1-4: And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you. If you will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart to give glory to my name, ... behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces.

According to Islam, everyone who believes in God can keep there faith, it is only if they become muslim that would make it a evil deed to pretend they do not understand after they made a testamony.

So you can be Jewish or Christian and you do not have to be a muslim to believe in God and the last day, this is because prophets went to certain peoples.

But if you blaspheme against God and take other things for love like you should for God who gives you sustanance and you know it even in secret, God promises a terrible doom as you can read above in both the bible and Koran.

So I did not make anything up, or attacked anyone here did I?

You decide if this fairy tale is real or a lie, and you choose if you should do God's will or fallow your desires.

Peace

KAOSKTRL
Nov 13, 2005, 02:11 PM
Hitler lied to vilify the jews ,
Muslims are vilified when people speak
The truth about islamic scripture.

Islam is self indicting.

Muslims fought side by side with nazis and
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/hanjar.html
Much of scripture is virtually indistinguishable from Mien Kampf.

"Existence impels the Jew to lie, just as it compels the inhabitants of Northern countries to wear warm clothing" -Mein Kampf, p. 305

"...the Jews are a nation of liars...the Jews are a treacherous, lying, and evil people." -Ishaq Hadith 240


Islamic scripture the Quran calls for the subjegation and eradication of all none muslims.

SUBJEGATE

9.29. Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allâh, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islâm) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

http://www.road-to-heaven.com/quran/english/9.htm

ERRADICATE

2.193. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâliműn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)

http://www.road-to-heaven.com/quran/english/2.htm
Shirk is worse than Killing

Since Jihad involves killing and shedding the blood of men, Allah indicated that these men are committing disbelief in Allah, associating with Him (in the worship) and hindering from His path, and this is a much greater evil and more disastrous than killing. Abu Malik commented about what Allah said:

[وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ]

(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) Meaning what you (disbelievers) are committing is much worse than killing.'' Abu Al-`Aliyah, Mujahid, Sa`id bin Jubayr, `Ikrimah, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, Ad-Dahhak and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that what Allah said:

[وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ]

(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) "Shirk (polytheism) is worse than killing.''

G4-450
Nov 13, 2005, 02:39 PM
Hitler lied to vilify the jews ,

SUBJEGATE

9.29. Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allâh (KAFIR), (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islâm) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Shirk is worse than Killing

FLAIMING FLAIMING LOL

(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) "Shirk (polytheism) is worse than killing.'' Sore LOSER, you sure isn't a happy camper.. LOL

I believe that every time you post, you admit that your terrorized because know your going to get what God promised those who broke his first 2 commandments.

And I know why the un Godly are the terrorized in the bible and Koran now, you on the other hand still does not get it .LOL

Quote:

Gen.35 [5] And they journeyed: and the terror of God was upon the cities that were round about them, and they did not pursue after the sons of Jacob.

Lev.26 [16] I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror , consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.

Deut.34 [12] And in all that mighty hand, and in all the great terror which Moses shewed in the sight of all Israel.

Job.6 [4] For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit:the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.

-----------------------
JIHAD is from the same God of the BIBLE;


1. I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me.

2. You shall not make for yourself a graven image. You shall not bow down to them or serve them.

"All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman. (From the NIV Bible, 2 Chronicles 15:13)"

Exodus 22:20: He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed. this means (KAFIR) in arabic.

Leviticus 24:16: And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord (KAFIR), he shall surely be put to death.

Mark 16:16: He that believeth not, shall be damned


You seem to Enjoy the fire... while I put my trust in God.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 13, 2005, 03:42 PM
Shirk is worse than Killing

Since Jihad involves killing and shedding the blood of men, Allah indicated that these men are committing disbelief in Allah, associating with Him (in the worship) and hindering from His path, and this is a much greater evil and more disastrous than killing. Abu Malik commented about what Allah said:

[وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ]

(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) Meaning what you (disbelievers) are committing is much worse than killing.'' Abu Al-`Aliyah, Mujahid, Sa`id bin Jubayr, `Ikrimah, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, Ad-Dahhak and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that what Allah said:

[وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ]

(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) "Shirk (polytheism) is worse than killing.''

KAOSKTRL
Nov 13, 2005, 03:45 PM
This is the Ayah of the Sword

Mujahid, `Amr bin Shu`ayb, Muhammad bin Ishaq, Qatadah, As-Suddi and `Abdur-Rahman bin Zayd bin Aslam said that the four months mentioned in this Ayah are the four-month grace period mentioned in the earlier Ayah,

[فَسِيحُواْ فِى الاٌّرْضِ أَرْبَعَةَ أَشْهُرٍ]

(So travel freely for four months throughout the land.) Allah said next,

[فَإِذَا انسَلَخَ الأَشْهُرُ الْحُرُمُ]

(So when the Sacred Months have passed... ), meaning, `Upon the end of the four months during which We prohibited you from fighting the idolators, and which is the grace period We gave them, then fight and kill the idolators wherever you may find them.' Allah's statement next,

[فَاقْتُلُواْ الْمُشْرِكِينَ حَيْثُ وَجَدتُّمُوهُمْ]

(then fight the Mushrikin wherever you find them), means, on the earth in general, except for the Sacred Area, for Allah said,

[وَلاَ تُقَـتِلُوهُمْ عِندَ الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ حَتَّى يُقَـتِلُوكُمْ فِيهِ فَإِن قَـتَلُوكُمْ فَاقْتُلُوهُمْ]

(And fight not with them at Al-Masjid Al-Haram, unless they fight you there. But if they attack you, then fight them. )[2:191] Allah said here,

[وَخُذُوهُمْ]

(and capture them), executing some and keeping some as prisoners,

[وَاحْصُرُوهُمْ وَاقْعُدُواْ لَهُمْ كُلَّ مَرْصَدٍ]

(and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in every ambush), do not wait until you find them. Rather, seek and besiege them in their areas and forts, gather intelligence about them in the various roads and fairways so that what is made wide looks ever smaller to them. This way, they will have no choice, but to die or embrace Islam,

[فَإِن تَابُواْ وَأَقَامُواْ الصَّلَوةَ وَءاتَوُاْ الزَّكَوةَ فَخَلُّواْ سَبِيلَهُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ]

(But if they repent and perform the Salah, and give the Zakah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.) Abu Bakr As-Siddiq used this and other honorable Ayat as proof for fighting those who refrained from paying the Zakah. These Ayat allowed fighting people unless, and until, they embrace Islam and implement its rulings and obligations. Allah mentioned the most important aspects of Islam here, including what is less important. Surely, the highest elements of Islam after the Two Testimonials, are the prayer, which is the right of Allah, the Exalted and Ever High, then the Zakah, which benefits the poor and needy. These are the most honorable acts that creatures perform, and this is why Allah often mentions the prayer and Zakah together. In the Two Sahihs, it is recorded that Ibn `Umar said that the Messenger of Allah said,

«أُمِرْتُ أَنْ أُقَاتِلَ النَّاسَ حَتَّى يَشْهَدُوا أَنْ لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا اللهُ وَأَنَّ مُحَمَّدًا رَسُولُ اللهِ وَيُقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُوا الزَّكَاة»

(I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, establish the prayer and pay the Zakah.) This honorable Ayah (9:5) was called the Ayah of the Sword, about which Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim said, "It abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolator, every treaty, and every term.'' Al-`Awfi said that Ibn `Abbas commented: "No idolator had any more treaty or promise of safety ever since Surah Bara'ah was revealed. The four months, in addition to, all peace treaties conducted before Bara'ah was revealed and announced had ended by the tenth of the month of Rabi` Al-Akhir.''

[وَإِنْ أَحَدٌ مِّنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ اسْتَجَارَكَ فَأَجِرْهُ حَتَّى يَسْمَعَ كَلاَمَ اللَّهِ ثُمَّ أَبْلِغْهُ مَأْمَنَهُ ذَلِكَ بِأَنَّهُمْ قَوْمٌ لاَّ يَعْلَمُونَ ]

(6. And if anyone of the Mushrikin seeks your protection then grant him protection so that he may hear the Word of Allah (the Qur'an) and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not.)

KAOSKTRL
Nov 13, 2005, 03:48 PM
(I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, establish the prayer and pay the Zakah.)
Shirk is worse than Killing

Since Jihad involves killing and shedding the blood of men, Allah indicated that these men are committing disbelief in Allah, associating with Him (in the worship) and hindering from His path, and this is a much greater evil and more disastrous than killing. Abu Malik commented about what Allah said:

[وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ]

(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) Meaning what you (disbelievers) are committing is much worse than killing.'' Abu Al-`Aliyah, Mujahid, Sa`id bin Jubayr, `Ikrimah, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, Ad-Dahhak and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that what Allah said:

[وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ]

(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) "Shirk (polytheism) is worse than killing.''


Kill people who reject the pedophile prophet.

G4-450
Nov 13, 2005, 04:07 PM
Shirk is worse than Killing

Since Jihad involves killing and shedding the blood of disbelieving man and woman who are called (KAFIRS in ARABIC), GOD (in the bible also) indicated that these men are committing belief in False GODs and broke the first commandment, associating with Him (in the worship) and hindering from His path the truth seekers, and this is a much greater evil and more disastrous than killing.

[?????]=hadgidagufgiyaif; is not one arabic word
LOL
THANK YOU FOR ADMITTING THAT JIHAD IS ORIGINALLY FROM THE BIBLE, AND THAT YOUR TERRORIZED BECAUSE You're the KAFIR (polytheist). LOL


I am having so much fun here at work, we got 6 more hours to laugh here about how your flaming because you have nothing original to say but paste Jihad-Watch propaganda Zionists use to get gullible people like you to believe :p

Oh, maybe you got Jihad mixed up with Hajeebs, Oh Look, are they muslims ?http://brawl-hall.com/gallery/data/media/11/Nuns_Have_Fun_Too.jpg

KAOSKTRL
Nov 13, 2005, 04:27 PM
I have know idea what you think is so funny,Killing people who don't believe the pediophile was a prohet isn't that funny, Not to me anyway,
http://www.google.com/search?lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%D9%88%D9%8E%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%92%D9%81%D9%90%D8%AA %D9%92%D9%86%D9%8E%D8%A9%D9%8F%20%D8%A3%D9%8E%D8%B 4%D9%8E%D8%AF%D9%91%D9%8F%20%D9%85%D9%90%D9%86%D9% 8E%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%92%D9%82%D9%8E%D8%AA%D9%92%D9 %84%D9%90
I also don't understand what your problem is with arabic?
http://www.tafsir.com/Default.asp
That fact is islam requires muslims to kill people who are not muslims .
Not in self defense or only when attacked , but anytime and because and until only muslims remain oin earth .
Oh that's reall funny,
Genocide.
LOL

G4-450
Nov 13, 2005, 05:01 PM
I have know idea what you think is so funny,Killing people who dont beleive the pediophile was a prohet isnt that funny, Not to me anyway,

I also dont understand what your problem is with arabic?

That fact is islam requires muslims to kill people who are not muslims .
not in self defense or only when attacked , but anytime and because and until only muslims remain oin earth .
Oh thats reall funny,
Genocide.
LOL LOL, no what's funny is that you sound like the nazis when they made up lies about the Jews, and they where terrified from it too. Bad Karma man, try to stop lying.

And by the way, nazis committed genocide too claiming Jihad in the Bible, As many before them who claimed to be christians and revenging others for because they believed in a Mortal God that died rather then the immortal living God.

This are the people who back a GENOCIDE
http://www.bilderberg.org/

The Isralian flag and the American flag (mirrored) with the yellow border around it are on the left side. This stands for the relationship between US and Israel, the mirrored flag with yellow border where shown sticked on the jackets of the 101St Airborne who fighted in the war on Iraq.

On the right site you see the American flag and the United Nations flag which speaks for it self.

On the top of all that there is the Eagle symbol which was used by the Great Roman Empire. This symbolises the New World Order which is being established as we speak.

----------------------------------------------------------------

To begin with, the Bilderberg group was founded by Prins Bernhard from the Netherlands who married Queen Juliana of The Netherlands in 1939. The goal of the Bilderbergers was/is to keep up the relation between Europe and America. Bernhard him self has been a member of the NSDAP founded in 1920 (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei / German National Socialist Workers Party) and the SS (Schutzstaffel) founded in 1929 by Heinrich Himmler while Hitler was in power.

If your not one of them, you better move to mecca,

KAOSKTRL
Nov 13, 2005, 05:04 PM
Calling me a nazi, saying Im a liar ,calling me a bigot, seems to be the extend of your argument,
Unfortunately that is not good enough an answer for the genocide in the Quran .
(I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, establish the prayer and pay the Zakah.)
Shirk is worse than Killing

Since Jihad involves killing and shedding the blood of men, Allah indicated that these men are committing disbelief in Allah, associating with Him (in the worship) and hindering from His path, and this is a much greater evil and more disastrous than killing. Abu Malik commented about what Allah said:

[وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ]

(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) Meaning what you (disbelievers) are committing is much worse than killing.'' Abu Al-`Aliyah, Mujahid, Sa`id bin Jubayr, `Ikrimah, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, Ad-Dahhak and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that what Allah said:

[وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ]

(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) "Shirk (polytheism) is worse than killing.''


Kill people who reject the pedophile prophet.
Edit/Delete Message

G4-450
Nov 13, 2005, 05:21 PM
Calling me a nazi, saying Im a liar ,calling me a bigot, seems to be the extend of your argument, You are, you repeatedly did it and even said nazis are nice people LOL and you lied openly to win a argument and still do and that make syou a hypocrite in denial.


Unfortunatly that is not good enough an answer for the genocide in the Quran . GENOCIDE means: The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.

No where is Islam or in the Bible anything like this, both books teach redemption, only Trinitarian Crusade and nazis or alike committed Genocides when they attacked Spain and Jerusalem and killed everyone dark whether Muslim, Christian or Jewish. this is what Genocide means.

Islam protects believing Christians and Believing Jews. although they argue from pride with each other.

You lied again.
[5.68] Say: O followers of the Book(bible)! You follow no good till you keep up the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospals) and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people

[5.69] Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah (God) and the last day and does good, they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.

So you're a very evil liar to attack any of these faiths in the true God.


the enemies of God are those who break his Commandments. your indicted yourself as a disbeliever and hater in God and Humanity so many times here that it is safe to say I have met a satanist online for the first time, you make Hitler look like santa claus.


Kill people who reject the pedophile prophet.
where did you read this in the Koran? LIAR LIAR YOUR PANTS ARE ON FIRE LOL , your really funny.

If he was a pedophile, I wonder what you think about the Koran been the only book in the world that limits the amount of wives to 4, people of the bible had hundreds of wives and slept with 3 year olds.

BY THE WAY, ARE YOU A MEMBER OF THIS SITE OR NOT?
You seem to be on these thinking patterns.
http://www.bilderberg.org/2005.htm#banner

The Isralian flag and the American flag (mirrored) with the yellow border around it are on the left side. This stands for the relationship between US and Israel, the mirrored flag with yellow border where shown sticked on the jackets of the 101St Airborne who fighted in the war on Iraq.

On the right site you see the American flag and the United Nations flag which speaks for it self.

On the top of all that there is the Eagle symbol which was used by the Great Roman Empire. This symbolises the New World Order which is being established as we speak.

----------------------------------------------------------------

To begin with, the Bilderberg group was founded by Prins Bernhard from the Netherlands who married Queen Juliana of The Netherlands in 1939. The goal of the Bilderbergers was/is to keep up the relation between Europe and America. Bernhard him self has been a member of the NSDAP founded in 1920 (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei / German National Socialist Workers Party) and the SS (Schutzstaffel) founded in 1929 by Heinrich Himmler while Hitler was in power.

If your not one of them, you better move to mecca,

KAOSKTRL
Nov 13, 2005, 05:26 PM
Shirk is worse than Killing

Since Jihad involves killing and shedding the blood of men, Allah indicated that these men are committing disbelief in Allah, associating with Him (in the worship) and hindering from His path, and this is a much greater evil and more disastrous than killing. Abu Malik commented about what Allah said:

[وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ]

(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) Meaning what you (disbelievers) are committing is much worse than killing.'' Abu Al-`Aliyah, Mujahid, Sa`id bin Jubayr, `Ikrimah, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, Ad-Dahhak and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that what Allah said:

[وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ]

(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) "Shirk (polytheism) is worse than killing.''


Kill people who reject the pedophile prophet.

G4-450
Nov 13, 2005, 05:27 PM
I like the arabic you paste, what does it say?

KAOSKTRL
Nov 13, 2005, 05:29 PM
Its from the Quran.
Im sure you can read it,

G4-450
Nov 13, 2005, 05:33 PM
Its from the Quran.
Im sure you can read it,
Nope I cant, but one thing for sure, you paste it in many places and pretend it means several things, LIAR

LOL

Keep on lying, soon your own friends won't trust you and you will run from your own shadows because they will chew you for every word you made up and spit you out in the streets where you will beg to eat like many before you who even the poor have doubt about, And when a muslim, jew or christian walks by they will give you a nickel and tell you they do not even want your thanks, because it is for God just to remind you it is there duty and yours to give ZAKAT.

LOL

Would you like to re post your propaganda again :) FLAMER

The Isralian flag and the American flag (mirrored) with the yellow border around it are on the left side. This stands for the relationship between US and Israel, the mirrored flag with yellow border where shown sticked on the jackets of the 101St Airborne who fighted in the war on Iraq.

On the right site you see the American flag and the United Nations flag which speaks for it self.

On the top of all that there is the Eagle symbol which was used by the Great Roman Empire. This symbolises the New World Order which is being established as we speak.

----------------------------------------------------------------

To begin with, the Bilderberg group was founded by Prins Bernhard from the Netherlands who married Queen Juliana of The Netherlands in 1939. The goal of the Bilderbergers was/is to keep up the relation between Europe and America. Bernhard him self has been a member of the NSDAP founded in 1920 (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei / German National Socialist Workers Party) and the SS (Schutzstaffel) founded in 1929 by Heinrich Himmler while Hitler was in power.

If your not one of them, you better move to mecca,

KAOSKTRL
Nov 13, 2005, 05:37 PM
Do you have some kind of problem with the source?
http://www.tafsir.com/Default.asp

what is Tafsir Ibn Kathir (http://www.google.com/search?lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Tafsir%20Ibn%20Kathir)

G4-450
Nov 13, 2005, 05:39 PM
Do you have some kind of problem with the source?
http://www.tafsir.com/Default.asp

what is Tafsir Ibn Kathir (http://www.google.com/search?lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Tafsir%20Ibn%20Kathir)
Nope, the links yo gave have nothing to do with your posts above. LOL

And they also have nothing to do with the actual Koran, which is what this topic is :) Are you going to stoop even lower now Satan?

How are your friends below?
The Isralian flag and the American flag (mirrored) with the yellow border around it are on the left side. This stands for the relationship between US and Israel, the mirrored flag with yellow border where shown sticked on the jackets of the 101St Airborne who fighted in the war on Iraq.

On the right site you see the American flag and the United Nations flag which speaks for it self.

On the top of all that there is the Eagle symbol which was used by the Great Roman Empire. This symbolises the New World Order which is being established as we speak.

----------------------------------------------------------------

To begin with, the Bilderberg group was founded by Prins Bernhard from the Netherlands who married Queen Juliana of The Netherlands in 1939. The goal of the Bilderbergers was/is to keep up the relation between Europe and America. Bernhard him self has been a member of the NSDAP founded in 1920 (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei / German National Socialist Workers Party) and the SS (Schutzstaffel) founded in 1929 by Heinrich Himmler while Hitler was in power.

If your not one of them, you better move to mecca,

KAOSKTRL
Nov 13, 2005, 05:49 PM
You know you are an idiot don't you?

G4-450
Nov 13, 2005, 05:51 PM
You know you are an idiot dont you?
LOL
I have been honest about this, now we know you're the problem and not muslims, you keep lying, so strange how far you go as a coward LOL


You owe it to yourself to at least admit who the idiot is now and change. :D http://brawl-hall.com/gallery/data/media/11/Another_Church_Sign.jpg

KAOSKTRL
Nov 13, 2005, 05:54 PM
2.191. And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (the sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

2.192. But if they cease, then Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

2.193. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâliműn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)

http://infidels.kafirnation.com/english/surah2.html

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=5008

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=5035

No nothing to do with the Quean nothing to do with islam ,
You are simply unqualified to comment on Islam.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 13, 2005, 05:57 PM
In broad strokes
Tafsir
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Jump to: navigation, search

A tafsir ( (Arabic: تفسير )tafsīr, also transliterated tafseer, Arabic "explanation") is Qur'anic exegesis or commentary. Someone who writes tafsir is a mufassir ( (Arabic: مفسر ) mufassir, plural (Arabic: مفسرين ) mufassirīn).
Contents
[hide]

* 1 Sources of Tafsir
* 2 Genres of Tafsir
* 3 Prohibited Tafsir
* 4 Major Mufassireen
* 5 Modernist Mufassireen
* 6 Tafsir in other languages
* 7 External links

[edit]

Sources of Tafsir

The five sources for commentary of the Qur'an are:

1. The Qur'an. This is the highest form of tafsir, because the Qu'ran explains itself.
2. The Hadith. Muslims believe that the Muhammad was sent to explain and clarify the Qur'an to people. The books of the Hadith contain much tafsir of the Qur'an, under titles such as "Meaning of Qur'anic verses". This is the second highest form of tafsir, because the Islamic prophet is explaining it.
3. The reports of the Sahaba. The Sahaba, or companions of Muhammad, knew Muhammad would have better insight into the Qur'an. If there is a consensus of the companions on a certain verse, then that consensus is followed. If there is no consensus, scholars interpret the verse using set principles.
4. The reports of those who learned from the companions. These people grew up in an environment with people who had known the Prophet, so their insight is the next in line of the sources of tafsir.
5. Reason. The use of reason (deductive logic and evaluation of arguments) is the final method of understanding the Qur'an.

[edit]

Genres of Tafsir

* Asbāb al-nuzūl: defining the "occasions of revelation" of the suras.
* Naskh: dealing with the abrogation of one Qur'anic verse by another.

[edit]

Prohibited Tafsir

It is prohibited to perform Qur'anic tafsir using solely one's own opinion. This is based on the authenticated hadith of Muhammad which states it is prohibited.
[edit]

Major Mufassireen

Major Tafsirs of the Qur'an include:

* Ibn Kathir: "Tafsir ibn Kathir" - A classic tafsir, considered a summary of the earlier Tafseer by Ibn Jarir (at-Tabari). It is especially popular because it uses 'hadith' to explain each verse and chapter of the Qur'an.

G4-450
Nov 13, 2005, 05:59 PM
2.191. And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (the sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

2.192. But if they cease, then Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

2.193. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâliműn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)

http://infidels.kafirnation.com/english/surah2.html

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=5008

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=5035

No nothing to do with the Quean nothing to do with islam ,
You are simply unqualified to comment on Islam. Muslims stick to God's Comandments from the Bible, and Genocide has never been carried out by islam ever. no proof of it once so ever, fighting evil unil they surenders is all it states.

You lied, your practice hypocrisy, polythiesm, maybe you recent religion because your gay but you sure are the enemy o God in the Bible and Koran.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 13, 2005, 06:00 PM
Ibn Kathir
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Jump to: navigation, search

Ibn Kathir (Arabic : بن كثير ) was an Islamic scholar born in Busra, Syria in 1301 CE. He was taught by the Islamic scholar Ibn Taymiyya in Damascus, Syria and Ibn al-Qayyim. Ibn Kathir wrote a famous commentary of the Qur'an named Tafsir Ibn Kathir which linked certain Hadith, or sayings of Muhammad, and sayings of the Sahaba (companions of Muhammad) to verses of the Qur'an, in explanation. Tafsir Ibn Kathir is famous all over the Islamic world and among Muslims in the Western world, and is one of the most widely used explanations of the Qu'ran today.

Ibn Kathir was renowned for his great memory regarding the sayings of Muhammad and the entire Qur'an. Ibn Kathir is known as a qadi, a master scholar of Hadith, and a mufassir or Qur'an commentator. Some regard Ibn Kathir as a precursor to the contemporary Salafi or Wahhabi school of law, but Ibn Kathir saw himself as a Shafi scholar. This is indicated by two of his books, one of which was Tabaqaat ah-Shafai'ah, or The Categories of the Followers of Imam Shafi.

Other books written by Ibn Kathir include Signs Before the Day of Judgement and The Birthday of the Prophet which supports arguments as to the legality of celebrating Muhammad's birthday (seen as a reprehensible innovation or bid'a by some Muslims), and Biographies of the Prophets.

Ibn Kathir became blind just before his death. When Ibn Kathir died he was buried beside his teacher Ibn Taymiyya in the Sufi Cemetery of Damascus, Syria in 1372 CE.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 13, 2005, 06:05 PM
Your statements do not carry the weight you wish them to nor the historical accuracy Your rank and file person who has graduated from high school may not be able to document the unending imperial islamic jihad since the massacre of the Banu Qurayza But I can inclkuding the 80 million hindus
I like the sound of Muslim kush.

G4-450
Nov 13, 2005, 06:06 PM
Here is a lesson in what I understand of arabic.
Islam (do God's will)
Zakat (donation to the poor),
Kafir (disbeliever)
Muslims (people who do God's will, keep the comandments) and
Shirk (a PAGAN)

Replace the words you have and you might get a climpse of truth to where you stand in all this.

G4-450
Nov 13, 2005, 06:11 PM
Your statments do not carry the weight you wish them to nor the historical accuracy Your rank and file person who has graduated from highschool may not be able to document the unending imperial islamic jihad since the massacre of the Banu Qurayza But I can inclkuding the 80 million hindus
I like the sound of Muslim kush.

And your just like the people you hate that you hope to find, so you can blame them for the rotting of your soul from lying.


LOL, and by the way, let me know if you see any flying carpets too. you seem to have a vivid imagination about your fears now, its catching up.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 13, 2005, 06:13 PM
.191. And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (the sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

2.192. But if they cease, then Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

2.193. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâliműn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)

http://infidels.kafirnation.com/english/surah2.html

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=5008

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=5035

No nothing to do with the Quean nothing to do with islam ,
You are simply unqualified to comment on Islam.
Shirk is worse than Killing

Since Jihad involves killing and shedding the blood of men, Allah indicated that these men are committing disbelief in Allah, associating with Him (in the worship) and hindering from His path, and this is a much greater evil and more disastrous than killing. Abu Malik commented about what Allah said:

[وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ]

(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) Meaning what you (disbelievers) are committing is much worse than killing.'' Abu Al-`Aliyah, Mujahid, Sa`id bin Jubayr, `Ikrimah, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, Ad-Dahhak and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that what Allah said:

[وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ]

(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) "Shirk (polytheism) is worse than killing.''

G4-450
Nov 13, 2005, 06:16 PM
http://www.geocities.com/pearly6000/bush/bush-jesusrole.gif

You trust him?

KAOSKTRL
Nov 13, 2005, 06:17 PM
You read aribic

قُلْ فَمَن يَمْلِكُ مِنَ اللَّهِ شَيْئاً إِنْ أَرَادَ أَن يُهْلِكَ الْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ وَأُمَّهُ وَمَن فِى الاٌّرْضِ جَمِيعا

وَللَّهِ مُلْكُ السَّمَـوَتِ وَالاٌّرْضِ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَآء

KAOSKTRL
Nov 13, 2005, 06:18 PM
You trust him?Nope he's an

G4-450
Nov 13, 2005, 06:18 PM
You read aribic

???? ????? ???????? ???? ??????? ??????? ???? ??????? ??? ???????? ?????????? ????? ???????? ????????? ????? ??? ????????? ???????

???????? ?????? ???????????? ??????????? ????? ??????????? ???????? ??? ??????
Nope I don't, sorry

Do you?

I can read greek and a little hebrew in the bible though, and Jihad is there too.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 13, 2005, 06:20 PM
Are you an expert on islamic scripture?

G4-450
Nov 13, 2005, 06:22 PM
Are you an expert on islamic scripture?

You sure isn't a expert if no one is

especially when you refute GOD's commandments in both the koran and Bible because your guilty of sin according to both books, and you know it.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 13, 2005, 06:29 PM
The Polytheism and Disbelief of the Christians

Allah states that the Christians are disbelievers because of their claim that `Isa, son of Maryam, one of Allah's servants and creatures, is Allah. Allah is holier than what they attribute to Him. Allah then reminds them of His perfect ability over everything and that everything is under His complete control and power,

[قُلْ فَمَن يَمْلِكُ مِنَ اللَّهِ شَيْئاً إِنْ أَرَادَ أَن يُهْلِكَ الْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ وَأُمَّهُ وَمَن فِى الاٌّرْضِ جَمِيعاً]

(Say: "Who then has the least power against Allah, if He were to destroy the Messiah, son of Maryam, his mother, and all those who are on the earth together") Therefore, if Allah wills to do that, who would be able to stop Him or prevent Him from doing it Allah then said,

[وَللَّهِ مُلْكُ السَّمَـوَتِ وَالاٌّرْضِ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَآءُ]

(And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them. He creates what He wills.) All things in existence are Allah's property and creation and He is able to do everything. He is never asked about what He does with His power, domain, justice and greatness so this refutes the Christian creed, may Allah's continued curses be upon them until the Day of Resurrection.

KAOSKTRL
Nov 13, 2005, 06:32 PM
The Prohibition of Taking the Jews, Christians and Enemies of Islam as Friends

Allah forbids His believing servants from having Jews and Christians as friends, because they are the enemies of Islam and its people, may Allah curse them. Allah then states that they are friends of each other and He gives a warning threat to those who do this,

[وَمَن يَتَوَلَّهُمْ مِّنكُمْ فَإِنَّهُ مِنْهُمْ]

(And if any among you befriends them, then surely he is one of them.) Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that `Umar ordered Abu Musa Al-Ash`ari to send him on one sheet of balance the count of what he took in and what he spent. Abu Musa then had a Christian scribe, and he was able to comply with `Umar's demand. `Umar liked what he saw and exclaimed, "This scribe is proficient. Would you read in the Masjid a letter that came to us from Ash-Sham'' Abu Musa said, `He cannot.'' `Umar said, "Is he not pure'' Abu Musa said, "No, but he is Christian.'' Abu Musa said, "So `Umar admonished me and poked my thigh (with his finger), saying, `Drive him out (from Al-Madinah).' He then recited,

[يَـأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ لاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَـرَى أَوْلِيَآءَ]

(O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as friends... )'' Then he reported that `Abdullah bin `Utbah said, "Let one of you beware that he might be a Jew or a Christian, while unaware.'' The narrator of this statement said, "We thought that he was referring to the Ayah,

[يَـأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ لاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَـرَى أَوْلِيَآءَ]

(O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as friends, )'' Allah said,

[فَتَرَى الَّذِينَ فِى قُلُوبِهِم مَّرَضٌ]

KAOSKTRL
Nov 13, 2005, 06:43 PM
Pretty clear Islam has nothing to do with Christian or jews It is its own separate thing with its own claims & laws and prphet.
Islam wants to be Judaism 2 Or Christianity completed but its no,
T Allah cannot be trusted and the Quran tell you that is so.

G4-450
Nov 13, 2005, 10:17 PM
LOL
I don't need to read arabic to tell that there are 2 identical paragraphs and your using them to make your interpretation of some hadeeths seem original so you can lie because they have nothing to do with the koran the way they are writtn, by a non speaking arab of course.

that is now -----> fraud that you committed..

Before, you got off calling me names like "idiot" or this and that,
But the truth is that I never once called you any names o insult you, but that you actually are a wicked liar, hypocrite and cowarded racist.

It is no surprise that your scared of the 10 commandments in the Bible and Koran for they stand against your values and also call for Jihad against evil ones like you,.

It is also clear that your one of those really guilty sinners that goes out of your way here by trying to flame in order to flood the truth so you can blame another.

Other then that, I wanted to finally ask you directly here, DO YOU YOUR SELF BELIEVE IN GOD AT ALL? ?

KAOSKTRL
Nov 13, 2005, 10:34 PM
I doesn't matter if I believe in god, I do not believe Mohammed was a prophet of any god.
Pediophiles and murderous thiefs who lie do not reach the level of prophet hood
You need to familiarize your elf with the concept of


EXEGESIS

AND TRY TO COUPLE THAT WITH THE WORDS
TAFSIR & QURAN &
PW3ND

G4-450
Nov 14, 2005, 04:50 AM
I doesnt matter if I believe in god,
Sure it does, because now we understand your place in this story with God, Your really a Satanist who chases his lusts and worships just this, Satan.
Mark 16:16: He that believeth not (a kafir), shall be damned.
yasuf ali 3995 The Unbelievers with wealth are too full of themselves to have a corner for others .
If they say "Allah gave them nothing why should we?". There is arrogance in this as well as blasphemy,

Arrogance in thinking that they are favored because of there merits, and
Blasphemy in laying the blame on others misfortunes. They further try to turn the tables on believers by pretending that the believers are entirely on the wrong track. they forget that all men are on a probation trial, they hold there gifts on trust, those apparently less favored, in that they have fewer of this worlds goods, may really be more fortunate, because they are learning patience, self reliance, and the true values of the things ephemeral which is apt to be very much exaggerated in men's eyes.

In addition to there arrogance, there is blasphemy. They not only refuse faith but they taunt the men of faith as if men of faith where dealing with falsehood. They say if there is a hear after then when does it come?. answer is that it will come sooner then you expect, and while your disputing about things of faith and neglecting your opportunities in life, when the hour will sound you will not have any time to make disposition in this life, you will be cut of from everyone whom you thought to be near and dear to you, or able to help you.


i do not believe in that mohamed is the prophet of any gods. And how many are there again? I missed that one.
LOL
Matt.4 [10] Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Now we know why you hate God.


Pediophiles and murderous thiefs who lie do not reach the level of prophet hood You need to familiarize your elf with the concept of tell me more about what that level is, I sem to ge the impression that you think that they had special powers over others to fly LOL

BTW, Adolf Hitler, the SS, Stalin, the Bush legacy, Nixon, Mau, etc, etc, all got wealth for the evil in this life, Mohammed died 2 years after he simply gave the kabah back to believers, and you obvously are not but lied all along pretending you knew what it meant

AND YOU COULD NOT POSSIBLY BELIEVE IN GOD IF YOU DO NOT ACCEPT THAT GOD GIVES LIFE AND SUSTANANCE TO ALL LIVING BIENGS AND UNIVERSES INCLIDING ME AND YOU, LOL :D fun fun fun telling you too.

[3.59] Surely the likeness of Isa (Jesus) is with Allah (God) as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was.

See ho God created Jesus just like he did with Adam, out of nothing PUFF... YET Adam had no biological Mother or father as to Jesus and his Mother Mary. and who Jesus is also referred to the MASIAH, Christ in the Koran and God likes good christians; ((([5.82] Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are polytheists, and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there are priests and monks among them and because they do not behave proudly.)))

[3.60] (This is) the truth from your Lord, so be not of the disputers.
[3.61] But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah (GOD) on the liars. So those who deny God are liars, Satan did this and no one should ever trust him for his threat to humanity.

G4-450
Nov 14, 2005, 05:00 AM
I doesnt matter if I believe in god,
Sure it does, because now we understand your place in this story with God, Your really a Satanist who chases his lusts and worships just this, Satan.
Mark 16:16: He that believeth not (a kafir), shall be damned.
yasuf ali 3995 The Unbelievers with wealth are too full of themselves to have a corner for others .
If they say "Allah gave them nothing why should we?". There is arrogance in this as well as blasphemy,

Arrogance in thinking that they are favored because of there merits, and
Blasphemy in laying the blame on others misfortunes. They further try to turn the tables on believers by pretending that the believers are entirely on the wrong track. they forget that all men are on a probation trial, they hold there gifts on trust, those apparently less favored, in that they have fewer of this worlds goods, may really be more fortunate, because they are learning patience, self reliance, and the true values of the things ephemeral which is apt to be very much exaggerated in men's eyes.

In addition to there arrogance, there is blasphemy. They not only refuse faith but they taunt the men of faith as if men of faith where dealing with falsehood. They say if there is a hear after then when does it come?. answer is that it will come sooner then you expect, and while your disputing about things of faith and neglecting your opportunities in life, when the hour will sound you will not have any time to make disposition in this life, you will be cut of from everyone whom you thought to be near and dear to you, or able to help you.


i do not believe in that mohamed is the prophet of any gods. And how many are there again? I missed that one.
LOL
Matt.4 [10] Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Now we know why you hate God.


Pediophiles and murderous thiefs who lie do not reach the level of prophet hood You need to familiarize your elf with the concept of tell me more about what that level is, I sem to ge the impression that you think that they had special powers over others to fly LOL

BTW, Adolf Hitler, the SS, Stalin, the Bush legacy, Nixon, Mau, etc, etc, all got wealth for the evil in this life, Mohammed died 2 years after he simply gave the kabah back to believers, and you obvously are not but lied all along pretending you knew what it meant

AND YOU COULD NOT POSSIBLY BELIEVE IN GOD IF YOU DO NOT ACCEPT THAT GOD GIVES LIFE AND SUSTANANCE TO ALL LIVING BIENGS AND UNIVERSES INCLIDING ME AND YOU, LOL :D fun fun fun telling you too.

[3.59] Surely the likeness of Isa (Jesus) is with Allah (God) as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was.

See ho God created Jesus just like he did with Adam, out of nothing PUFF... YET Adam had no biological Mother or father as to Jesus and his Mother Mary. and who Jesus is also referred to the MASIAH, Christ in the Koran and God likes good christians; ((([5.82] Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are polytheists, and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there are priests and monks among them and because they do not behave proudly.)))

[3.60] (This is) the truth from your Lord, so be not of the disputers.
[3.61] But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah (GOD) on the liars. So those who deny God are liars, Satan did this and no one should ever trust him for his threat to humanity.

G4-450
Nov 14, 2005, 09:05 AM
Hitler lied to vilify the jews ,
Maybe Hitler was a orthodox Jew. they all say that about non orthodox jews.

Muslims are vilified when people speak the truth about islamic scripture. but you lied so... end of that story there.


islam is self indicting. Islam means (doing the will of God) submission. Satan swore that anyone who did not do God's will are his to indict, are you with the party of satan?


Muslims fought side by side with nazis and much of scripture is virtually indistinguishable from Mien Kampf. you sure they where muslims? I heard the nazis USED the Japonese, arabs and converted Jews from Spain to fight side by side for them.

Islamic scripture the Quran calls for the subjegation and eradication of all none muslims.

SUBJEGATE 9.29.
ERRADICATE 2.193. LOL
Are you sure it is only in the Koran or Islam that teaches to keep these comandments?

SUBJEGATE and ERRADICATE are titles by polytheists for polytheists, This explains why your scared for your life and hate the one true God who ordered death to polytheists by nature and law,

So while you fight for what you worship other then God (money, oil, anything else you depend on for sustanance), the believers are told to fight with God against you because you are in error by attacking them for this.

Read again where it is all from.

Allah is the same God in the Bible;
"All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman. (From the NIV Bible, 2 Chronicles 15:13)"

Exodus 22:20: He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Leviticus 24:16: And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death.

Mark 16:16: He that believeth not, shall be damned.

Malachi 2:1-4: And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you. If you will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart to give glory to my name, ... behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces.

According to Islam, everyone who believes in God can keep there faith, it is only if they become muslim that would make it a evil deed to pretend they do not understand after they made a testamony.

So you can be Jewish or Christian and you do not have to be a muslim to believe in God and the last day, this is because prophets went to certain peoples.

But if you blaspheme against God and take other things for love like you should for God who gives you sustanance and you know it even in secret, God promises a terrible doom as you can read above in both the bible and Koran.

So I did not make anything up, or attacked anyone here did I?

You decide if this fairy tale is real or a lie, and you choose if you should do God's will or fallow your desires.

Peace

G4-450
Nov 14, 2005, 09:09 AM
Hitler lied to vilify the jews ,
Maybe Hitler was a orthodox Jew. they all say that about non orthodox jews.

Muslims are vilified when people speak the truth about islamic scripture. but you lied so... end of that story there.


islam is self indicting. Islam means (doing the will of God) submission. Satan swore that anyone who did not do God's will are his to indict, are you with the party of satan?


Muslims fought side by side with nazis and much of scripture is virtually indistinguishable from Mien Kampf. you sure they where muslims? I heard the nazis USED the Japonese, arabs and converted Jews from Spain to fight side by side for them.

Islamic scripture the Quran calls for the subjegation and eradication of all none muslims.

SUBJEGATE 9.29.
ERRADICATE 2.193. LOL
Are you sure it is only in the Koran or Islam that teaches to keep these comandments?

SUBJEGATE and ERRADICATE are titles by polytheists for polytheists, This explains why your scared for your life and hate the one true God who ordered death to polytheists by nature and law,

So while you fight for what you worship other then God (money, oil, anything else you depend on for sustanance), the believers are told to fight with God against you because you are in error by attacking them for this.

Read again where it is all from.

Allah is the same God in the Bible;
"All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman. (From the NIV Bible, 2 Chronicles 15:13)"

Exodus 22:20: He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Leviticus 24:16: And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death.

Mark 16:16: He that believeth not, shall be damned.

Malachi 2:1-4: And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you. If you will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart to give glory to my name, ... behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces.

According to Islam, everyone who believes in God can keep there faith, it is only if they become muslim that would make it a evil deed to pretend they do not understand after they made a testamony.

So you can be Jewish or Christian and you do not have to be a muslim to believe in God and the last day, this is because prophets went to certain peoples.

But if you blaspheme against God and take other things for love like you should for God who gives you sustanance and you know it even in secret, God promises a terrible doom as you can read above in both the bible and Koran.

So I did not make anything up, or attacked anyone here did I?

You decide if this fairy tale is real or a lie, and you choose if you should do God's will or fallow your desires.

G4-450
Nov 14, 2005, 09:15 AM
Hitler lied to vilify the jews ,
Maybe Hitler was a orthodox Jew. they all say that about non orthodox jews.

Muslims are vilified when people speak the truth about islamic scripture. but you lied so... end of that story there.


islam is self indicting. Islam means (doing the will of God) submission. Satan swore that anyone who did not do God's will are his to indict, are you with the party of satan?


Muslims fought side by side with nazis and much of scripture is virtually indistinguishable from Mien Kampf. you sure they where muslims? I heard the nazis USED the Japonese, arabs and converted Jews from Spain to fight side by side for them.

Islamic scripture the Quran calls for the subjegation and eradication of all none muslims.

SUBJEGATE 9.29.
ERRADICATE 2.193. LOL
Are you sure it is only in the Koran or Islam that teaches to keep these comandments?

SUBJEGATE and ERRADICATE are titles by polytheists for polytheists, This explains why your scared for your life and hate the one true God who ordered death to polytheists by nature and law,

So while you fight for what you worship other then God (money, oil, anything else you depend on for sustanance), the believers are told to fight with God against you because you are in error by attacking them for this.

Read again where it is all from.

Allah is the same God in the Bible;
"All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman. (From the NIV Bible, 2 Chronicles 15:13)"

Exodus 22:20: He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Leviticus 24:16: And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death.

Mark 16:16: He that believeth not, shall be damned.

Malachi 2:1-4: And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you. If you will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart to give glory to my name, ... behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces.

According to Islam, everyone who believes in God can keep there faith, it is only if they become muslim that would make it a evil deed to pretend they do not understand after they made a testamony.

So you can be Jewish or Christian and you do not have to be a muslim to believe in God and the last day, this is because prophets went to certain peoples.

But if you blaspheme against God and take other things for love like you should for God who gives you sustanance and you know it even in secret, God promises a terrible doom as you can read above in both the bible and Koran.

So I did not make anything up, or attacked anyone here did I?

You decide if this fairy tale is real or a lie, and you choose if you should do God's will or fallow your desires

Morganite
Nov 14, 2005, 09:20 AM
Campbell was (died 1987) very much into mythology and viewd all religions, including Islam, as myth. Why invoke the words of a kafir to support your argument?

Heroes played a crucial role in Campbell's comparative studies. In 1949 The Hero with a Thousand Faces set out the idea of the monomyth, a streamlined version of all the archetypal patterns Campbell recognized (Campbell's archivist at the Pacifica Graduate Institute says he borrowed the term from James Joyce's novel "Finnegans Wake").

Campbell wrote that almost all hero myths, throughout history and across cultures, can be shown to contain at least a subset of these patterns. In contemporary popular culture, three film series, Star Wars, The Matrix, and The Lord of the Rings (along with Tolkien's original book series) hew very closely to Campbell’s archetypal pattern. Heroes were important to him because they conveyed, to him, universal truths about how one should live one's life and about an individual's role in society.


Quotes

“Participate joyfully in the sorrows of life” - this was not an endorsement of masochism, but rather a recognition that life contains hardship and an individual should embrace the experience of being alive by living affirmatively in the face of inevitable sorrow and suffering. This was an echo of a Buddhist teaching that calls for "joyful participation in the sorrows of the world."

“Follow your bliss.” - Campbell believed that at the heart of every hero myth was just that message. After the Power of Myth series aired it became a bit of a catch-phrase. Campbell intended it to mean that one should follow the natural order and cycles of life, though, like the Devil worshiper Aleister Crowley's “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law,” it has been understood and misunderstood to be a call to craven libertinism.

Joseph Campbell explains his maxim to Bill Moyers:

BILL MOYERS: Do you ever have the sense of... being helped by hidden hands?

JOSEPH CAMPBELL: All the time. It is miraculous. I even have a superstition that has grown on me as a result of invisible hands coming all the time - namely, that if you do follow your bliss you put yourself on a kind of track that has been there all the while, waiting for you, and the life that you ought to be living is the one you are living. When you can see that, you begin to meet people who are in your field of bliss, and they open doors to you. I say, follow your bliss and don't be afraid, and doors will open where you didn't know they were going to be.

"Read myths. They teach you that you can turn inward, and you begin to get the message of the symbols. Read other people's myths, not those of your own religion, because you tend to interpret your own religion in terms of facts -- but if you read the other ones, you begin to get the message."


All religion was myth to Campbell. How then is he useful to your argument one way or another except to say that Islam is a religion not based on tryth or a living god but on stories made by men?





MORGANITE

G4-450
Nov 14, 2005, 09:57 AM
Why invoke the words of a kafir to support your argument? MORGANITE

Kafir in arabic or Goyas in Hebrew in the Bible, Jihad or other words for word games played by the Media to MADE ignorant people believe the story they want is false and only exposes people who are NOT truth seeker.

If you translated everything in arabic or hewbrew into english and told the news you would get this;

ALLAH (thee God (one and only sustainer of all worlds)
Muslim (those who do God's will)
Islam (the act of doing God's will)
Kafir (Disbeliever in God)
Shirk (pagan polythiests)
Fitna ( person with the intention of disturbing anothers peace with there fancies)
Ramadan (fasting)

On and On

Where the media or ignorance plays the role, people tend to fall for words moved ot of there places, something the Jewish scribes where questioned for not only by Jesus but Mohammed too,

*
To give a example of what people say when speak about other faiths.

Like muslism are evil people and islam is a evil religion means:
-People who do God's will are evil people and Doing Gods will is a evil religion.

Jihad means killing ;
Defence or Fight in Gods way means kiling, HHMMM
One must know the commandments before accusing Gods people of attacking first.

Let us make a paragraphs out of the Koran.

[2.126] And when Ibrahim said: My Lord, make it a secure town and provide its people with fruits, such of them as believe in ALLAH ((thee One GOD)) and the last day. He said: And whoever disbelieves (KAFIR) , I will grant him enjoyment for a short while, then I will drive him to the chastisement of the fire; and it is an evil destination.
[2.127] And when Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House(KABAH): Our Lord! Accept from us; surely Thou art the Hearing, the Knowing:
[2.128] Our Lord! And make us both submissive to Thee (MUSLIMS) and raise from our offspring a nation submitting to Thee, and show us our ways of devotion and turn to us mercifully , surely Thou art the Oft-returning to mercy , the Merciful.
[2.129] Our Lord! And raise up in them an Apostle ((PROPHET)) from among them who shall recite to them Thy communications and teach them the Book and the wisdom, and purify them; surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise.
[2.130] And who forsakes the religion of Ibrahim but he who makes himself a fool, and most certainly We chose him in this world, and in the hereafter he is most surely among the righteous.
[2.131] When his Lord said to him, Be a Muslim (DO MY WILL), he said: I submit myself (ISLAM) to the Lord of the worlds. (ALLAH)


Bible; “The Lord our God is one Lord.” ALLAH (Mark 12:29)

Matthew 15:19
But in vain they do Submit (worship) me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Exodus 20:4-5
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image (SHIRK), or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself (SALAT-Submit)to them, nor serve them...

Matthew 26:39 And Jesus went a little further, and fell on his face(Salat Submited), and prayed...

Luke 24:36, John 20:26
And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. (Asalamu Alaikua)

Matthew 4:2 And when he had (RAMADAN) fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward hungry.

Exodus 22:20: He that sacrificeth unto any god (Shirk), save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

1. I am the Lord your God (ALLAH), who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods (SHIRK) before me.

Thou shalt worship no other god .


2. You shall not make for yourself a graven image(SHIRK). You shall not bow down to them or serve them.

leilaa111
Jun 1, 2007, 07:16 AM
Can you trust the koran well I do and so do millions of people around the world .I think the koran is the best medicine 4 humans they just don't realise it .

NeedKarma
Jun 1, 2007, 07:49 AM
can u trust the koran well i do and so do millions of people around the world .i think the koran is the best medicine 4 humans they just dont realise it .Unless you are a woman and don't feel like being submissive all your life.

luckystar
Jun 1, 2007, 08:52 AM
The problems posed by the scripta defectiva of early versions of the Koran inevitably led to the growth of different centers with their own variant traditions of how the texts should be pointed or vowelized. Despite ‘Uthman’s order to destroy all texts other than his own, it is evident that the older codices survived.

Charles Adams says, "It must be emphasized that far from there being a single text passed down inviolate from the time of ‘Uthman’s commission, literally thousands of variant readings of particular verses were known in the first three (Muslim) centuries. These variants affected even the ‘Uthmanic codex, making it difficult to know what its true form may have been."

Some Muslims preferred codices other than the ‘Uthmanic, for example, those of Ibn Mas’ud, Uba ibn Ka’b, and Abu Musa. Eventually, under the influence of the great Koranic scholar Ibn Mujahid (died 935), there was a definite canonization of one system of consonants and a limit placed on the variations of vowels used in the text that resulted in acceptance of seven systems.

But other scholars accepted ten readings, and still others accepted fourteen readings. Even Ibn Mujahid’s seven provided fourteen possibilities since each of the seven was traced through two different transmitters, viz,

1. Nafi of Medina according to Warsh and Qalun

2. Ibn Kathir of Mecca according to al-Bazzi and Qunbul

3. Ibn Amir of Damascus according to Hisham and Ibn Dakwan

4. Abu Amr of Basra according to al-Duri and al-Susi

5. Asim of Kufa according to Hafs and Abu Bakr

6. Hamza of Kuga according to Khalaf and Khallad

7. Al-Kisai of Kufa according to al Duri and Abul Harith

In the end three systems prevailed, those of Warsh (d. 812) from Nafi of Medina, Hafs (d. 805) from Asim of Kufa, and al-Duri (d. 860) from Abu Amr of Basra.

At present in modern Islam, two versions seem to be in use: that of Asim of Kufa through Hafs, which was given a kind of official seal of approval by being adopted in the Egyptian edition of the Koran in 1924; and that of Nafi through Warsh, which is used in parts of Africa other than Egypt.

As Charles Adams reminds us:

It is of some importance to call attention to a possible source of misunderstanding with regard to the variant readings of the Quran. The seven (versions) refer to actual written and oral text, to distinct versions of Quranic verses, whose differences, though they may not be great, are nonetheless substantial. Since the very existence of variant readings and versions of the Quran goes against the doctrinal position toward the Holy Book held by many modern Muslims, it is not uncommon in an apologetic context to hear the seven (versions) explained as modes of recitation; in fact the manner and technique of recitation are an entirely different matter.

Guillaume also refers to the variants as "not always trifling in significance." For example, the last two verses of sura LXXXV, Al Buraj, read: (21) hawa qur’anun majidun; (22) fi lawhin mahfuzun/in. The last syllable is in doubt.

If it is in the genitive -in, it gives the meaning "It is a glorious Koran on a preserved tablet"—a reference to the Muslim doctrine of the Preserved Tablet. If it is the nominative ending -un, we get "It is a glorious Koran preserved on a tablet." There are other passages with similar difficulties dealing with social legislation.

If we allow that there were omissions, then why not additions? The authenticity of many verses in the Koran has been called into question by Muslims themselves. Many Kharijites, who were followers of ‘Ali in the early history of Islam, found the sura recounting the story of Joseph offensive, an erotic tale that did not belong in the Koran.

Hirschfeld questioned the authenticity of verses in which the name Muhammad occurs, there being something rather suspicious in such a name, meaning ‘Praised’, being borne by the Prophet.

The name was certainly not very common. However the Prophet’s name does occur in documents that have been accepted as genuine, such as the Constitution of Medina.

Most scholars believe that there are interpolations in the Koran; these interpolations can be seen as interpretative glosses on certain rare words in need of explanation.

More serious are the interpolations of a dogmatic or political character, which seem to have been added to justify the elevation of ‘Uthman as caliph to the detriment of ‘Ali.

Then there are other verses that have been added in the interest of rhyme, or to join together two short passages that on their own lack any connection.

Bell and Watt carefully go through many of the amendments and revisions and point to the unevenness of the Koranic style as evidence for a great many alterations in the Koran:

There are indeed many roughness of this kind, and these, it is here claimed, are fundamental evidence for revision. Besides the points already noticed—hidden rhymes, and rhyme phrases not woven into the texture of the passage—there are the following:

abrupt changes of rhyme
repetition of the same rhyme word or rhyme phrase in adjoining verses
the intrusion of an extraneous subject into a passage otherwise homogeneous
a differing treatment of the same subject in neighbouring verses, often with repetition of words and phrasesbreaks in grammatical construction which raise difficulties in exegesis
abrupt changes in length of verse
sudden changes of the dramatic situation, with changes of pronoun from singular to plural, from second to third person, and so on
the juxtaposition of apparently contrary statements; the juxtaposition of passages of different date, with intrusion of fare phrases into early verses.


In many cases a passage has alternative continuations which follow one another in the present text. The second of the alternatives is marked by a break in sense and by a break in grammatical construction, since the connection is not with what immediately precedes, but with what stands some distance back.

The Christian al-Kindi (not to be confused with the Arab, Muslim philosopher) writing around 830 C.E., criticized the Koran in similar terms:

The result of all this (process by which the Quran came into being) is patent to you who have read the scriptures and see how, in your book, histories are jumbled together and intermingled; an evidence that many different hands have been at work therein, and caused discrepancies, adding or cutting out whatever they liked or disliked. Are such, now, the conditions of a revelation sent down from heaven?


Is such a book trustworthy?




MORGANITE
Now that's an easy question to answer... no...

Retrotia
Jun 1, 2007, 12:17 PM
can u trust the koran well i do and so do millions of people around the world .i think the koran is the best medicine 4 humans they just dont realise it .

Not if you're a woman & value your self-esteem! I think you will actually NEED medicine if you trust it.

magprob
Jun 4, 2007, 10:49 PM
And if you are a human, GOD is in you so why don't you just ask GOD. Meditate. Be quiet! No other human being can do it for you.
"Be still and Know that I am GOD."

poppa0777
Jun 11, 2007, 12:40 PM
The problems posed by the scripta defectiva of early versions of the Koran inevitably led to the growth of different centers with their own variant traditions of how the texts should be pointed or vowelized. Despite ‘Uthman’s order to destroy all texts other than his own, it is evident that the older codices survived.

Charles Adams says, "It must be emphasized that far from there being a single text passed down inviolate from the time of ‘Uthman’s commission, literally thousands of variant readings of particular verses were known in the first three (Muslim) centuries. These variants affected even the ‘Uthmanic codex, making it difficult to know what its true form may have been."

Some Muslims preferred codices other than the ‘Uthmanic, for example, those of Ibn Mas’ud, Uba ibn Ka’b, and Abu Musa. Eventually, under the influence of the great Koranic scholar Ibn Mujahid (died 935), there was a definite canonization of one system of consonants and a limit placed on the variations of vowels used in the text that resulted in acceptance of seven systems.

But other scholars accepted ten readings, and still others accepted fourteen readings. Even Ibn Mujahid’s seven provided fourteen possibilities since each of the seven was traced through two different transmitters, viz,

1. Nafi of Medina according to Warsh and Qalun

2. Ibn Kathir of Mecca according to al-Bazzi and Qunbul

3. Ibn Amir of Damascus according to Hisham and Ibn Dakwan

4. Abu Amr of Basra according to al-Duri and al-Susi

5. Asim of Kufa according to Hafs and Abu Bakr

6. Hamza of Kuga according to Khalaf and Khallad

7. Al-Kisai of Kufa according to al Duri and Abul Harith

In the end three systems prevailed, those of Warsh (d. 812) from Nafi of Medina, Hafs (d. 805) from Asim of Kufa, and al-Duri (d. 860) from Abu Amr of Basra.

At present in modern Islam, two versions seem to be in use: that of Asim of Kufa through Hafs, which was given a kind of official seal of approval by being adopted in the Egyptian edition of the Koran in 1924; and that of Nafi through Warsh, which is used in parts of Africa other than Egypt.

As Charles Adams reminds us:

It is of some importance to call attention to a possible source of misunderstanding with regard to the variant readings of the Quran. The seven (versions) refer to actual written and oral text, to distinct versions of Quranic verses, whose differences, though they may not be great, are nonetheless substantial. Since the very existence of variant readings and versions of the Quran goes against the doctrinal position toward the Holy Book held by many modern Muslims, it is not uncommon in an apologetic context to hear the seven (versions) explained as modes of recitation; in fact the manner and technique of recitation are an entirely different matter.

Guillaume also refers to the variants as "not always trifling in significance." For example, the last two verses of sura LXXXV, Al Buraj, read: (21) hawa qur’anun majidun; (22) fi lawhin mahfuzun/in. The last syllable is in doubt.

If it is in the genitive -in, it gives the meaning "It is a glorious Koran on a preserved tablet"—a reference to the Muslim doctrine of the Preserved Tablet. If it is the nominative ending -un, we get "It is a glorious Koran preserved on a tablet." There are other passages with similar difficulties dealing with social legislation.

If we allow that there were omissions, then why not additions? The authenticity of many verses in the Koran has been called into question by Muslims themselves. Many Kharijites, who were followers of ‘Ali in the early history of Islam, found the sura recounting the story of Joseph offensive, an erotic tale that did not belong in the Koran.

Hirschfeld questioned the authenticity of verses in which the name Muhammad occurs, there being something rather suspicious in such a name, meaning ‘Praised’, being borne by the Prophet.

The name was certainly not very common. However the Prophet’s name does occur in documents that have been accepted as genuine, such as the Constitution of Medina.

Most scholars believe that there are interpolations in the Koran; these interpolations can be seen as interpretative glosses on certain rare words in need of explanation.

More serious are the interpolations of a dogmatic or political character, which seem to have been added to justify the elevation of ‘Uthman as caliph to the detriment of ‘Ali.

Then there are other verses that have been added in the interest of rhyme, or to join together two short passages that on their own lack any connection.

Bell and Watt carefully go through many of the amendments and revisions and point to the unevenness of the Koranic style as evidence for a great many alterations in the Koran:

There are indeed many roughness of this kind, and these, it is here claimed, are fundamental evidence for revision. Besides the points already noticed—hidden rhymes, and rhyme phrases not woven into the texture of the passage—there are the following:

abrupt changes of rhyme
repetition of the same rhyme word or rhyme phrase in adjoining verses
the intrusion of an extraneous subject into a passage otherwise homogeneous
a differing treatment of the same subject in neighbouring verses, often with repetition of words and phrasesbreaks in grammatical construction which raise difficulties in exegesis
abrupt changes in length of verse
sudden changes of the dramatic situation, with changes of pronoun from singular to plural, from second to third person, and so on
the juxtaposition of apparently contrary statements; the juxtaposition of passages of different date, with intrusion of fare phrases into early verses.


In many cases a passage has alternative continuations which follow one another in the present text. The second of the alternatives is marked by a break in sense and by a break in grammatical construction, since the connection is not with what immediately precedes, but with what stands some distance back.

The Christian al-Kindi (not to be confused with the Arab, Muslim philosopher) writing around 830 C.E., criticized the Koran in similar terms:

The result of all this (process by which the Quran came into being) is patent to you who have read the scriptures and see how, in your book, histories are jumbled together and intermingled; an evidence that many different hands have been at work therein, and caused discrepancies, adding or cutting out whatever they liked or disliked. Are such, now, the conditions of a revelation sent down from heaven?


Is such a book trustworthy?




MORGANITE
I say the book is NOT trustworthy.

Morganite
Jun 29, 2007, 12:27 PM
I say the book is NOT trustworthy.

Then you would say the Bible is untrustworthy for similar reasons?



M:)RGANITE

firmbeliever
Jul 20, 2007, 11:42 AM
Quran is the word of Allah, and for those who have faith in it and follow it as it should be are the best among human beings.

It is not for me to judge what is in the hearts of those who misinterpret it and use it for their own gains (which is very common in all spheres of life where humans try to cut/erase/ignore/leave out /add,according to their own wishes).

For those who believe and follow it as it should be, they find peace within their souls as it is a connection with the Almighty Creator.Some who find it hard to follow also find peace knowing that the more they try, the more pleased their Lord will be with them and the reward may not be in this world,but the Hereafter.
This does not mean that the Almighty Lord will forgive if we say we believe and keep trangressing the boundaries set.

Death is a reality of life and all will die no matter who or what we believe in and whatever is beyond death,those who believe in the Hereafter works for it knowing they will meet the Creator. Those who do not they have their own way of dealing with death...

To each their own...

P.S Please stop fighting over your beliefs as it does not solve anything but just gets on everyone's nerves and I thought I joined this site to help clear doubts not create them!!
For those who wish to have info about any belief system it is their right to research and it is for those who to provide to help such needs. I cannot and will not force anyone into anything and this method serves no purpose as someone may believe with their mouths but not with their hearts (This is what makes a person a believer or not):)

Morganite
Jul 22, 2007, 11:15 AM
I say the book [al qur'an] is NOT trustworthy.

Is the Bible trustworthy?

firmbeliever
Jul 27, 2007, 02:51 AM
Is the Bible trustworthy?

I would also like to add that even though we muslims do not follow, nor completely agree with the current bible/s, we do believe that a book was revealed to Jesus (alaihi salaam) during the time he was in this world and we also believe that the original teachings of his are the same as the basic muslim beliefs(One Creator,One Lord).

We also believe that the basics of the original teachings of Jesus (alaihis salaam) is included in the final revelation which is called the Quran.
Hence I would refrain from saying whether the bible is trustworthy or not as there are teachings in it that still agree with Islamic teachings and by commenting on it, I unknowingly maybe calling false what the Almighty had revealed to the people living at the time of Jesus (alaihi salaam).

I have also found many Christians who have read the Quran and understood it and believed in it and reverted(we call them reverts more than converts as we believe that it is what our natural state is i.e to believe in One Lord and submit to One God).
They seem to have found the Quran to be trustworthy and all of them were not Christians in name only, many of them were priests etc ,so I guess they must have studied the bible and the Quran too.

http://www.islamtomorrow.com/yusuf/priests_n_preachers.htm
http://muslimconverts.com/converts/Ahmed_Didat.htm
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2630

:) :)

Morganite
Jul 28, 2007, 03:02 PM
Unless you are a woman and don't feel like being submissive all your life.

I believe you are confusing scripture with custom. There is no requirement in the Koran for women to hold any but an exalted position. Some cultures do not correctly observe this, and some observe it in ways that are distorted.

There again, some Christian sects do not pemrit women to speak or teach in their churches, but others do, in spite of Paul's culturally determined opinion.

M:)