What are the jewish views on homosexuality?? And do they allow homosexual rabbis??

This person I know is only 16yrs old and we have found gay pornography on his computer so just thought I would ask

Hello again, mom:

There is NO Jewish view on homosexuality. There's only personal views. Do we allow homosexual rabbis?? Like I said earlier, we don't have rules like that - not even close. Only Christians make rules like that. I live in a very progressive city. Right down the road from me, today being Rosh Hashana, a lesbian rabbi is conducting a service. She has a FULL house too.

Jews also don't snoop. What makes you think he's a rabbi?

excon

Hello again, mom:

There is NO Jewish view on homosexuality. There's only personal views. Do we allow homosexual rabbis???? Like I said earlier, we don't have rules like that - not even close. Only Christians make rules like that. I live in a very progressive city. Right down the road from me, today being Rosh Hashana, a lesbian rabbi is conducting a service. She has a FULL house too.

Jews also don't snoop. What makes you think he's a rabbi?

excon

He has told everyone he is a rabbi... like I said as you can tell I am sure I am not real educated on the religion but my daughter REALLLLY REALLLY likes this kid and I just want to know more about it...

Hello again, mom:

Well, if people want to believe that a 16 year old is a rabbi, I can't help that.

excon

Hello again, mom:

Well, if people want to believe that a 16 year old is a rabbi, I can't help that.

excon



Like I said he has been the one to say he s and my daughter is very gulliable I told her I didn't think he was old enough but she won't listen to me because I am mom and of cours don't know anything and I figured if I could get an answer to my questions here then it would be great at least I know now thank you for helping me get a little more understanding on all this...

what are the jewish views on homosexuality???

My personal view is more traditional on this particular issue. I don't see that homosexuals should be in or permitted in leadership roles, but I don't place homosexuality as a greater sin than others.




and do they allow homosexual rabbis????


Orthodox- No homosexual rabbis; Chabad Lubavitch - Torah, Judaism and Jewish Info (http://www.chabad.org/)

Conservative- No homosexual rabbis; USCJ: United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism (http://www.uscj.org/index1.html)

Post Denominational- No homosexual rabbis; www.adatami.com|Index (http://www.adatami.com/Index.html)

Reform- Over the past decade or so, Reform Judaism has been addressing homosexuality and to what degree if it will be permited. A few Reform Temples are ran more conservative but most have become more progressive and less traditional; URJ - Homosexuality (http://urj.org/ask/homosexuality/)

Reconstructionist- Almost anything is acceptable; Is Reconstructionist Judaism For You? (http://www.jrf.org/recon/rjis.html)




this person i know is only 16yrs old and we have found gay pornography on his computer so just thought i would ask

He is not a rabbi. Surfing for gay porno has never part of any rabbinical school seminary training. Besides this kid, as you say is only 16 years of age, sort of behaviour is not permitted in any yeshiva either.



i am wondering how old a jewish person has to be to become a rabbi????


I think as young as early to mid thirties. I've never been to any synagogue where there has been a rabbi in there twenties, although I suppose it's possible.




and how appropritae it is for someone who claims to be a rabbi to use foul launguage???

Not likely.







Bobby

The Jewish law prohibits homosexuality -- male homosexuality specifically, though female homosexuality is not condoned. While certain branches of Judaism which focus less on the adherence to textual law have found ways to permit homosexuality, it is unacceptable in an observant framework.

This will give you an interesting viewpoint

JONAH (Jews Offering New Alternatives to Homosexuality) (http://www.jonahweb.org/cms/e/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=10&Itemid=31)

By the way, in terms of the rabbinate (speaking as an Orthodox Rabbi) -- being a "rabbi" means having been tested and proven knowledgeable about certain areas of ritual and law, so if one studies constantly, one could be a young ordained "rabbi". The ordination used to require 40 years of study and I know a rabbi who studied for 25 years before his teacher felt he knew enough. But seminaries usually take post high school or post college students and put them through a 2-5 year program before the institution grants them the title. Then, to operate as a rabbi in some capacity requires that the community/school/group feel you are old enough. I've been known to slip and use the kind of filthy mouth I used when I was younger, and some rabbis have more slips than others, but most religious rabbis are against gross speech.

There's only personal views. Do we allow homosexual rabbis???? Like I said earlier, we don't have rules like that - not even close.
excon

B"H

Pardon me, my comrade in chains, but please speak for yourself. Torah is Torah is Torah, and the Torah tells us that homosexuality is seen as an abomination in G-d's eyes. Bottom line. In accordance with the free will G-d has granted us you may disagree and practice as you are inclined (of course I am not insinuating that you are a homosexual), but the condoning of homosexuality in 'Judaism' is a very recent development.

Traditional Jewish views, like traditional christian views shows that homosexual activity is wrong.
Now just like liberal christians who develop their own teachings and rules, so have liberal jews.
So you will find groups considering thierself Christian and groups considering thierself jewish that support a homosexual lifestyle.
To me this only means their break off group from traditional teachings have accepted it.

As a Christian, I have studied both the Old and New Testaments. The Old Testament clearly labels homosexuality as sin. Some people pay more attention to Scripture than others.

He has told everyone he is a rabbi... like i said as you can tell i am sure i am not real educated on the religion but my daughter REALLLLY REALLLY likes this kid and i just want to know more about it...

This is an older thread, but I think we need to get off the homosexuality or rabbinical aspects of your question and focus on the real issue. Your daughter is apparently enamored of 16 yr old boy who is claiming to be a rabbi and has been found in the possession of gay porn.

What I think you need to do is have your daughter do her own research on what being a rabbi means. Rabbi simply means teacher, so anyone can claim to be a rabbi and might even be one (maybe he helps teach a Sunday School class at the Synagogue). But what most people consider as THE Rabbi is the official leader of a congregation. Such a person is generally hired by the congregation to be their spiritual leader, conduct services, advise on jewish law etc. It is highly unlikely that a congregation would hire a 16 yr old boy for this. So the boy needs to define what he means by being a rabbi.

Mor important is the finding of gay porn, especially if it involves younger participants. It could be simple curiousity or it could be something much deeper. It is true that the Torah and the Old Testament prohibits homosexuality. But many jews prefer a more modernistic and secular approach to the Torah. Also judiasm is much more individualistic a religion. So jews tend to be less concerned with a person's sexuality.

Why does God create homosexuals then?

Why does God create homosexuals then?

Your assumption is more along the lines of what Christianity might find challenging to their theology, not for Judaism though.

THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN JUDAISM AND CHRISTIANITY (http://www.convert.org/differ.htm)

"The Jewish view is that humans are not born naturally good or naturally bad. They have both a good and a bad inclination in them, but they have the free moral will to choose the good and this free moral will can be more powerful than the evil inclination."



Bobby

As a Christian, I have studied both the Old and New Testaments. The Old Testament clearly labels homosexuality as sin. Some people pay more attention to Scripture than others.

Small correction: The Bible does NOT condemn 'homosexuality' (it cannot since the very word was not coined until the mid 19th Century)... but homosexual acts whether committed by homosexual or heterosexual men. It would seem, from all that I have read, that the bible authors, particularly Paul, had no real conception of 'homosexual orientation'. His own words would lead one to believe that he was talking about heterosexual men and women who 'exchanged natural intercours for unnatural' (Romans 1:26-27)... no different that today's 'prison rape' most often perpetrated by heterosexual men against weaker prisoners.
On that note, remember also, that Paul considered it 'unnatural' for men to wear their hair long, and for women to cut their hair short!

The word 'abomination' incidentally is not a moral or ethical term. As used in the Old Testament it always indicates a serious breach of ritual purity laws. Other 'abominations' are eating pork, misusing incense and having intercourse during menstruation.

My personal view is more traditional on this particular issue. I don't see that homosexuals should be in or permitted in leadership roles, but I don't place homosexuality as a greater sin than others.






Orthodox- No homosexual rabbis; Chabad Lubavitch - Torah, Judaism and Jewish Info (http://www.chabad.org/)

Conservative- No homosexual rabbis; USCJ: United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism (http://www.uscj.org/index1.html)

Post Denominational- No homosexual rabbis; www.adatami.com|Index (http://www.adatami.com/Index.html)

Reform- Over the past decade or so, Reform Judaism has been addressing homosexuality and to what degree if it will be permited. A few Reform Temples are ran more conservative but most have become more progressive and less traditional; URJ - Homosexuality (http://urj.org/ask/homosexuality/)

Reconstructionist- Almost anything is acceptable; Is Reconstructionist Judaism For You? (http://www.jrf.org/recon/rjis.html)





He is not a rabbi. Surfing for gay porno has never part of any rabbinical school seminary training. Besides this kid, as you say is only 16 years of age, sort of behaviour is not permitted in any yeshiva either.





I think as young as early to mid thirties. I've never been to any synagogue where there has been a rabbi in there twenties, although I suppose it's possible.





Not likely.







Bobby

Bobby:
Nice response, but it may be a bit outdated: Both Reform and Reconstructionist Judaism allow the ordination of gay men and women, and support civil marriages for homosexual couples... and the Conservate "Committee on Jewish Laws and Standards" is still debating on whether to lift it's ban on gay ordinations. Scuttlebutt is that they will, most likely, join the Reform and Reconstructionist groups in allowing gay rabbis.

Bobby:
Nice response, but it may be a bit outdated: Both Reform and Reconstructionist Judaism allow the ordination of gay men and women, and support civil marriages for homosexual couples....and the Conservate "Committee on Jewish Laws and Standards" is still debating on whether to lift it's ban on gay ordinations. Scuttlebutt is that they will, most likely, join the Reform and Reconstructionist groups in allowing gay rabbis.


Thanks for the "nice response" comment. However just to clarify I did mention the Reform and Reconstructionist permitting of gay lifestyles: to quote myself, "most have become more progressive and less traditional" and "Almost anything is acceptable." I think the Reform link was a bit old (2000), but the Recostructionist link was accurate to their most recent views. Not much has ever changed in the Reconstructionist movement, it's a free-for-all. In a previous thread I recalled my falling out with a Reconstructionist rabbi over homosexuality issues. Ten years ago when I attended Reform services on a semi-regular basis, they were permitting same sex unions. In recent years I often just stay home, rest, recite shabbos prayers, and bless my family using a makeshift siddur. When I do attend though I go to a post-Denominational service that is somewhere in the spectrum between the Reform and Conservative ideology.


IMO the Conservatives are probably on the verge of splitting. The issue is not going away and their resolve, or compromise on gay issues, continues to be a topic within their own movement. I've never felt at home in Conseravtives services so I never sought to join any of their shuls. The last time I went to a Conservative service was for a Bar Mitzvah some 12 years plus ago. I think eventually a split will have one side going toward the Reform and the other in the more traditional Conservative vein.





Bobby

I would say it is a large debate if allowing such activities is really being progressive, But yes, breaking away and starint ones own branck is mans normal method of dealing with rules they do not wish to follow.

I would say it is a large debate if allowing such activities is really being progressive, But yes, breaking away and starint ones own branck is mans normal method of dealing with rules they do not wish to follow.


Good point and I agree. Personally, to me, it just means progressively lacking the Torah. The word "progressive" was initiated into use by the more liberal movements to make their views appear modernly acceptable to society.


Bobby

Why does God create homosexuals then?

God created people who have turned out to be Homosexuals Adulteres liers Cheaters robbers, Drunkards, drug abusers and list goes on. All of the latter are a manifestation of man's sinful nature. We all have sinned and no sin is better than the other. As Bobby pointed out man has an inclination to evil and that why we need God's grace.

Hello fancy:

I think it's sinful to point your finger and judge other people. I don't think the Bible says for you to ferret them out and make their lives miserable. Does it?

excon

Hello fancy:

I think it's sinful to point your finger and judge other people. I don't think the Bible says for you to ferret them out and make their lives miserable. Does it?

excon


Like I mentioned in post homosexuallity is no more sinful that any other sin. Without God's grace I am just as much a sinner as a homosexaul so I am not pointing a finger at anyone, we all sinners.

God created people who have turned out to be Homosexuals Adulteres liers Cheaters robbers, Drunkards, drug abusers and list goes on. All of the latter are a manifestation of of man's sinful nature. We all have sinned and no sin is better than the other. As Bobby pointed out man has an inclination to evil and that why we need God's grace.


fancyT,

Excuse me if I seem a bit skeptical of being quoted in light of someone that just joined the site yesterday and coincidentally, the Judaism's board recent history with an individual, perhaps the one claimed "aton," that was using the Tertuallian, Soldout, Waterlilly and Melissa handles, scouring other websites for conflicting info to pass time in mostly ignorance. In other words, as moderator Fr_Chuck put it, a "troublemaker." I will, however, address this again.

I'm following your dialogue with Excon, and it appears to me that your view is more in line in that of Christian theology, especially your "grace" comment. In Judaism, our view is that we are not born naturally bad. Please read through the link.



THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN JUDAISM AND CHRISTIANITY (http://www.convert.org/differ.htm)

"The Jewish view is that humans are not born naturally good or naturally bad. They have both a good and a bad inclination in them, but they have the free moral will to choose the good and this free moral will can be more powerful than the evil inclination."



Bobby

fancyT,

Excuse me if I seem a bit skeptical of being quoted in light of someone that just joined the site yesterday and coincidentally, the Judaism's board recent history with an individual, perhaps the one claimed "aton," that was using the Tertuallian, Soldout, Waterlilly and Melissa handles, scouring other websites for conflicting info to pass time in mostly ignorance. In other words, as moderator Fr_Chuck put it, a "troublemaker." I will, however, address this again.

I'm following your dialogue with Excon, and it appears to me that your view is more in line in that of Christian theology, especially your "grace" comment. In Judaism, our view is that we are not born naturally bad. Please read through the link.



THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN JUDAISM AND CHRISTIANITY (http://www.convert.org/differ.htm)

"The Jewish view is that humans are not born naturally good or naturally bad. They have both a good and a bad inclination in them, but they have the free moral will to choose the good and this free moral will can be more powerful than the evil inclination."



Bobby

Okay, I was just agreeing with your statement.

Okay, i was just agreeing with your statement.

Thanks. Just one more point: the major difference is that in Judaism we view "free will" in a purer aspect, i.e. inclination. Christianity teaches that people are inherently bad, i.e. original sin. In effect Christians reduce their own theology and version of "free will" to being meaningless. They take "choice" out of the equation and that's why coupled with their belief in "Jesus" they have to sale the "grace" mechanism, mostly out of context.



Bobby

There is only one Orthodox Jewish view of homosexuality.

Leviticus 18:22: Do not lie with a male as you would with a woman, since this is a disgusting perversion.

There's not a huge amount of room for interpretation there. There are those who argue that female homosexuality is not specifically forbidden in this verse, since the verse only addresses male homosexuality. Others disagree. But other than that, the text seems pretty cut and dry to me. Male homosexual relations are forbidden in Judaism.

Elliot

Leviticus 18:22: Do not lie with a male as you would with a woman, since this is a disgusting perversion.

There's not a huge amount of room for interpretation there. There are those who argue that female homosexuality is not specifically forbidden in this verse, since the verse only addresses male homosexuality. Others disagree. But other than that, the text seems pretty cut and dry to me. Male homosexual relations are forbidden in Judaism.

Elliot- That was my exact point of contention with a Reconstructionist rabbi. I threw that verse at him and he shot back at me like it was a machen a tsimmes. He claimed that the verse only addresses male homosexuality and that G-d didn't specifically forbid women. My reply was that verse did indeed used zakhar but I told him that the Hebrew is implied in some instances, same as we do using English. For example: using the word eesh also is read as enosh depending on context and that being enosh encompasses both male and female. Not only that but the Torah didn't separate forbidden acts for one gender when both genders are capable of the same act. It is a given understanding. BTW this argument took place in the rabbis home and I haven't been back. Actually I wasn't invited back and he used some lame excuse to get me out the door. Something about having to eat, and rest, after his blood pressure skyrocketed. Perhaps he figured out that I'll debate the number of angels on a pinhead given the opportunity.



Bobby

I already know the number of angels on a pinhead. Take the circumferance of the pin head, divide it by the circumferance of angel. And presto: you have the number of angels that fit on a pinhead. The actual math, I leave to the student...

Within the Orthodox community, there actually is some legitimate debate on the subject of female homosexuality. Some feel that the prohibition is on both males and females as you argue. Others argue that the prohibition is specific to men only, and while female homosexuality isn't "right", it is also not specifically prohibited by the verse I quoted above. They also argue that there is a physical difference between male and female homosexuality: for the male, it means the "loss of seed" or ejaculation, whereas for women, there is no loss of seed. Since the "loss of seed" is tantamount to wasting the potential for life, there is specific need to prohibit male homosexuality. Since there is no coresponding waste of potential life in female homosexuality, there is no prohibition. So there is some legitimacy to the argument. The fact that it happens to be the argument being used by a Reconstructionist "Rabbi" doesn't mean that the argument itself isn't legitimate.

Personally, I think that most of those who argue that female homosexuality is not prohibited are just horny guys who like to watch. But this also happens to be an argument being debated by legitimate rabbinical sources under halachic guidelines. For one thing, it is an issue of whether a Jewish marriage can remain in effect if the wife goes outside the marriage for homosexual relations, and is thus an issue of halachic import to Jewish marriage law. The question of the legitimacy or bastardy of a child of such a marriage can effect generations of children to come because of "mamzerut" law.

Elliot

Elliot- The Reconstructionist rabbi himself was not a problem, just the subject matter seemed more important. There are some issues I actually agree with their movement concerning, this happens to be one that I do not. However, on the Orthodox front, I assume centrist Orthodoxy, what happens if these legitimate rabbinical sources under the halachic guidelines concluded that there is no prohibition to have a relationship outside a marriage between two women, lesbians? Would this remove the husband's right to obtain a "get?" In other words, now let's look at this with the shoe on the other foot, so to speak. I know this wouldn't be complete abandonment or desertion technically in many situations, since that person may just be in a promiscuous temporary relationship and still comes home to her family. But could the man make a legitimate case for a get since his wife decided to go outside the marriage abandoning their relationship?



Bobby

Before I forget, as for the issue of "loss of seed" inference as to male homosexuality that is prohibited, by comparison that for female homosexuality there is no corresponding waste of potential life, therefore no prohibition... I can't agree with that course of reasoning. The loss of potential life was wasted the moment the female optioned for another female. If an affair outside a marriage occurred, I think that point could also be used by the man to be granted the get.



Bobby

Elliot- The Reconstructionist rabbi himself was not a problem, just the subject matter seemed more important. There are some issues I actually agree with their movement concerning, this happens to be one that I do not. However, on the Orthodox front, I assume centrist Orthodoxy, what happens if these legitimate rabbinical sources under the halachic guidelines concluded that there is no prohibition to have a relationship outside a marriage between two women, lesbians? Would this remove the husband's right to obtain a "get?" In other words, now let's look at this with the shoe on the other foot, so to speak. I know this wouldn't be complete abandonment or desertion technically in many situations, since that person may just be in a promiscuous temporary relationship and still comes home to her family. But could the man make a legitimate case for a get since his wife decided to go outside the marriage abandoning their relationship?

No, it does not remove the husband's right to give a "get". However, the part that you are missing is that in cases of proven adultery, the marriage is AUTOMATICALLY over. No Get is necessary in such a case. The marriage is simply over. That is why the issue of mamzerut is such an important one in adultery cases. However, female homosexuality MAY NOT be something that automatically triggers the end of the marriage, and therefore, the adultery issues and the mamzerut issues differ from a case of male homosexual adultery or heterosexual adultery. The halachic status of female homosexuality is thus an important issue with major reprecussions for Jewish marriage law.



Before I forget, as for the issue of "loss of seed" inference as to male homosexuality that is prohibited, by comparison that for female homosexuality there is no corresponding waste of potential life, therefore no prohibition... I can't agree with that course of reasoning. The loss of potential life was wasted the moment the female optioned for another female. If an affair outside a marriage occurred, I think that point could also be used by the man to be granted the get.



You are not alone. There are many who disagree with that reasoning. However, there is no corresponding "loss of an egg" if two women have homosexual relations, compared to the loss of seed in male homosexual relations. True, two women cannot have a child, but there is no loss of an actual potential life though the wasting of an egg. With males, there IS the issue of losing sperm, and each sperm is a potential life that is wasted.

I personally don't know which side of the issue to come down on from the halachic point of view. I'm certainly no authority on these issues. But I'm not prepared to reject either side of this halachic issue as "incorrect".

Elliot

"in cases of proven adultery, the marriage is AUTOMATICALLY over. No Get is necessary in such a case. The marriage is simply over."

Elliot -- if a wife or a husband commits adultery? If the wife does, the husband still has to give a get (in fact, he is required to) and I can't find anything that deals with if the husband has an affair (and I think I know why... )

Can you give me a source which discusses the case of no get, automatic end of the marriage?

Hey Daniel,

My understanding is that in a case of gilui arayot, if the two were to remain married and have children, the children are mamzerim, which tells me that the marriage is no longer a valid marriage. The marriage is AUTOMATICALLY no longer valid, regardless of a get. If that were not the case, there would be no issue of their children being mamzerim. (In effect, the laws ensures that the infidelitous woman can have NEITHER of her men. She can't marry her ex-parte lover, and she is no longer married to her husband.) Furthermore, in such a case, the woman would be chayav misah, wouldn't she? So there's really no need for a get.

Is my understanding incorrect? If so, please let me know. As I said, I'm not an expert, and you are the one with smicha. But this is from my foggy memories of mesechet Gittin, way back when... it might be all the way back to MTA. (Did we do Gittin or Kesubot at MTA? I can't remember. I know I leaned Gittin, but I can't remember when.)

BTW, where do you stand on the halachic implications of female homosexuality? Is female homosexuality specifically prohibitted by Vayikra 18:22? Does female homosexuality by a married woman constitute Gilui Arayot? Is she chayav misah? Are her children from her marriage mamzerim?

Elliot

As for the gitton, I did some Ketubot in MTA but I won't recall specifics. What I have seen is reference to the husband "having" to give her a get and being forbidden to her (though I'm not sure if the nature of the forbidden makes any future kids mamzerim). If she is with another guy without that get, she is still eishes ish and THOSE kids might be mamzerim so in that sense, the marriage, while in one way dissovled is, in another way, still binding.

The issue of female homosexuality (I once heard) was argued by the likes of the rambam who made many of the same arguments we are making here. The issue (HA!) is whether it serves as a 'replacement' for heterosexual sex or not; is it 'better' for a girl, before she gets married, to be with a man or a woman (almost a practice vs. preference argument). Though, I'd still have to say that there are issues of immodesty and lustfulness which are attached also.

The halacha is that female homosexuality is forbidden and here are some sources (taken from an old issue of Halacha and Contemporary Society:

The Sifra states on vayikra 18:2, when discussing "don't do as the non-Jews do"

"I did not say this except for those laws inscribed for them [the Gentiles] their fathers' father. What did they [the Gentiles, as opposed to the Jews] do? Men would marry men, and women would marry women".

Yevamot 76a, Shabbat 65a. Female homosexuality is punished by "makat Mardut" which is a rabbinic and not a biblical punishment, Yad, Issurei Biah21;8, On the other hand male homosexuality is a capital crime as has been indicated.

Spero, M.H "Further Examinations of the Halalchic Status of Homosexuality". Proceedings of the Association of Orthodox Jewish Scientists, vol. 7, 1983


This is another discussion with sources
MyJewishLearning.com - Ideas & Belief: Traditional Sources on Female Ho (http://www.myjewishlearning.com/ideas_belief/sex_sexuality/Overview_Homosexuality/Homosexuality_And_Halakhah/Sex_Lesbianism_Sarah.htm)

Excellent!! Thanks, Dan.