Ok, I'll start by saying that this is the first time that this has happened to me. I'm usually OK with the ladies, and I've always had a cocky funny streak (one girl called it quirky and coy). This time is different, though...

I met a girl a few months ago, and she's incredibly hot. It took me about a month of teasing before I finally got her to go out with me, using all of the techniques that you would think would work. We've been seeing each other for a little over a month now and I can feel it slipping it away. THings were great. We were hanging out, having sex and just sort of moving along. BUT, I started acting like a WUSSY! She set the trap, and I took the bait. She was encouraging me to act like a wussy, telling me she wanted to hang out all the time, letting me know what she was up to, calling or emailing every day and I started to the same... Big surprise, that's when everything changed!

That's when I started searching around to see exactly what was going on. I get it now and want to do something about it! Hopefully it's not too late. That's where you come in Wildcat!

We were supposed to get together last weekend. At the last minute that changed (her choice). I tried to act like it was no big deal, but ended up acting like a wussy (bascially just trying to see if we could work something out for some other day instead of just letting it go!). I didn't see her either Friday, but got the drunken phone call from her on Friday night. Like a dumbass I thought she was coming around and wanted to see me. I tried to be cocky and asked her if this was the booty call and she just laughed and said that she was only calling to chat. I really thought she wanted to hang out so I asked her if she was sure. That's when I could feel her getting more distant as she told me she really did just want to chat. Now I see that it was just another test that I failed. If she calls on Friday night, late, while drunk, will I answer?? I guess she got her answer.

Anyway, that's when I did some serious searching and found out that I was doing this ALL WRONG. I was afraid that I had totally blown it but now I'm unsure. I mean, she did call me while she was drunk and out at the bars with her friends. That's got to count for something... But, I know that if I keep screwing up then it will all be over.

Well, I didn't make any effort to contact her Saturday or Sunday and probably won't tomorrow either. In the past I've always had better luck with her when I wrote her off and tell myself that it's not going to work out (bit this was in in the initial one month teasing period). Big surprise she always ended up calling me a few days later.

Ok, I'll just get to the specific questions now...

1) If I do what I did before and just stop making any effort this time, will it work as it did before? I worry that before it worked because we hadn't gone out and the mystery was still there. Now we've gone out and I've shown that I can act like a WUSSY! Anyway, I'm hoping I can turn the attraction back on by distancing myself now.

2) Is this the absolute best approach? I've already decided not to answer the next time she calls, and if I bump into her to just keep it light (and end the conversation before she does). If I don't hear from her, when do I contact her? Not at all?

3) Since we've been going out for a month, if we go a week or two without talking (if neither of us makes the effort), can you really go back to dating like before? I mean, it will never be like before because I've sworn off act like such a WUSS (and I've even got one of my buddies who has agreed to slap me!! ). No more seeing her 4 times a week (cut back to 1 or 2 max), stop acting like there's a rush to progress this, NEVER EVER tell her that I like her, back to cocky and funny, etc.

Anyway, some specific advice sure would help!

There is a lot going on here but first I need to ask you some questions:

1. Why do you even want to be involved with a woman that calls you when she's drunk @ a club anyway. Besides sex what else is there? I guess I answered my own question huh?)

2. Are you trying to be in a committed relationship with her? If I knew what your motives were I could better explain what could be going on.


We women sometimes play games. Ashamed to say, Ive done it myself. Sometimes we date men that we have no intentions on being with because we honestly can't stand the thought of being alone or we are waiting on something better to come along. Regardless of what anyone says, you acting like a wuss has not a damn thing to do with rather or not she is going to call you back.

This may sting a bit but I as a woman am going to give it to you in the raw. It sounds like to me that the reason she may have called you is because the person she really wanted that night wasn't available for some reason. That's just a woman proving that she can get a man. To ease the pain of rejection so to speak.

I don't believe in giving or getting chased. If I like you, I will date you, wuss or not. You are not screwing this up, believe me. It sounds like to me that she is just not that into you. Don't waste another second chasing her. Find someone that wants you every night.

Ok, I'll do my best to answer.

1) It's not like the only time she calls is from a club. Like I said, it used to be better but seems to be cooling off.

2) I'm not sure what I want from her yet, but I do know that I like her more than many I've dated recently. Is there something there? I'm not sure yet, but normally at this point I know if there is nothing there. That's not the case this time. I know it probably sounds like I'm WAY into her from my initial post, but I'm still just trying to wait in see. She set the trap, I took the bait. It was stupid.

I already know that she plays games. She told me so. She said she wanted to keep seeing because I amused her. I made her laugh, she liked hanging out with me and that she liked the 'challenge'. Her word, not mine. I know that she likes the chase, and I kind of do too. I just think I blew it by acting like a pushover. I mean, I know she was WAY into me once, but I changed my behavior. I'm trying to make sure I don't do that again...

As for why she called me, maybe you're right. I don't know if she's seeing anyone else, but if she is, that doesn't sting too much. Like I said, it's early and I'm still trying to figure out if it's going anywhere. I guess I'd just like the chance to keep trying to figure it out, rather than have her walking away... Oh, and if she wanted to prove that she could get a man, all she'd have to do is ask any guy at the club. She's so hot that she'd get him. SHe wouldn't have to call me.

I don't know if I've clarified anything, but thanks for the response.

We tend to keep n touch with guys that are amusing, this is true. I don't think that you blew it by acting like a push over. I think that is more of a man's perspective.

I would suggest that you don't get into her anymore than she get's into you.

I am an extremely hot number myself, take it from me having every guy in the bar oggling and drooling all over you every night gets old. So proving that she could get any guy on the club is boring to her by now, been there, done that one. It's getting the one she really want's, to chase her is where the thrill is at.

I agree with you, play it cool, stand back and watch her because if she is at all into you, take my word for it, she is definitely watching you. If this does end up going a little further, don't be ashamed to let her know that you dig her, keep your guards up and happy hunting!!

I guess I think me acting like a pushover just sent the wrong message. I acted WAY IN to her, even though I think it was more equal. I was just sort of responding to what she was giving to me. She wanted to talk a lot, so I did. No, I didn't really mind it but I don't know if it would have happened had she not initiated that. But, it probably seemed as though I was pushing for something serious, when I still wasn't quite sure. I also that it wasn't a good idea because she once told me that her last relationship ended badly and that, when she gets uncomfortable with things moving too quickly, she bolts. I think that's what happened here.

It wasn't too hard to pull myself back too (once I finally figured out that I needed to). I'm hopeful that I won't come off as too into her in the future, and I'd like the chance to try. I'll never know if she's gone for good.

I sort of figured she was watching me and that's why I got the phone call Friday. Like I said, I know she used to be really into me. Maybe there's still something there. I guess I'll try and walk the fine line of not being too interested but also not wanting it to look like I'm just blowing her off. I know that eventually I'll probably have to make some effort (she told me that she doesn't think she should have to, as the woman) but I don't want it to be anytime soon and look like I'm being too needy...

I think you acting like you were way into her didn't really set off any alarms. If she is as hot as you say she is, she is used to guys being into her.

My fiancé and I started exactly like this, he chased me, I played hard, he ignored me, I chased him on and on and on. We ended up being close friends before anything real even manifested.

Take it slow, see where she is and ride the vibe. If you feel as of pulling back is the right thing to do. Then play it safe.

Yep! SHe is used to every other guy acting WAY IN to her because she's so hot. The problem is, the second I started doing it I became just like all those other dickweeds out there trying to hook up with her. No longer funny, amusing and original! That's why I think I set off her alarms. Hopefully our hot and cold cycle will go through the hot phase one more time so I can not make this mistake again!

Hi,
She is flirting with you, as she does with probably every man she knows!
Leave her alone; save yourself some "bigtime" problems.
Since she only calls when she is drunk means just one thing; she doesn't want to mess around with you, unless she is out of her mind!
Don't be "out of your mind" also; leave her alone.
Don't talk with her, don't call her.
Hang up the phone.
If she is really serious (which I doubt) about you, she will contact you when she isn't drunk, and carry on a decent conversation.
Best of luck,
fredg

Ok, I'm not sure if I've sent the right message here. She doesn't only contact me when she's drunk, although she certainly did last week. In fact, she stopped by my work to see me today (we work for the same company but in different buildings) and I'm pretty sure she was sober...

Hey Swriter,

I think you're getting a good handle on this from 'letmeno' - she KNOWS what's going here from the woman's side.

1. You definitely need to pull back. As I think you are realizing, it's not a good idea to come on strong the first couple months. Too much contact kills everything. Quit calling her for a while - make her call you - and don't ALWAYS return her calls right away.

2. The first couple months it's OK for both of you to see other people - I HIGHLY encourage it - it keeps you less needy and 'wanting' of this woman. It keeps you head on straight.

3. The first couple months you CAN'T EVER show how into you are with these types of woman - they will PLAY you as 'letmeno' told you. Don't ever tell her how you feel.

4. Too much contact is BAD for business - the couple months you really should only contact her two times a week. Keep the conversations short. See her only once really or twice at the most per week early on. This called AVOIDING being too available. You're a busy guy - with other woman options - at least you want her to think this way.

5. You have to watch out for her test questions - Give a snappy answer - or answer her question with a question. Make fun of her question. And rarely give an honest answer - there is no reaso not early on. Once you are a couple you can answer those questions somewtimes.

6. I think you may have put too much importance in this woman. You can't do this. You may have put her a head of yourself in importance and that can be bad for business. ANY woman needs to EARN the right to be with you - earn the right to be an equal.

7. I have a feeling you might have stopped the teasing and ball busting - being too 'nice' to her? This can KILL her attraction. See we switch and try to CONVINCE them to like us - that's NOT how attraction works.

8. I think you gave a way some of yor power to HER because of her looks - you don't want to lose her. You freak out and start acting like a Wuss - QUIT that.

Wildcat-

Yeah, this is more or less what happened. I was definitely acting too into it, saw her too often and she sensed it. I failed the tests and put too much importance on her. And I definitely stopped busting her balls. That was the worst part.

But, I think I'm doing OK at getting a handle on this. I played it cool all weekend and didn't even make any effort today. Since then she's stopped by my work twice to see me. I kept it light, no serious discussions about the weekend,tried to be moderately cheerful. Just told her I was busy and tried to focus more on what's happening today. I did attempt to tease her playfully a few times and that went OK (but not great). She made a point to tell me that she was just out of sorts last week, and had a really rough time. I just brushed it off, though. Best of all, I kept both conversations under my control. I ended them both telling her I was just about to run off and see someone about work stuff so I had to go. I could tell from the look on her face that she didn't expect that. I guess she thought I'd lap up the attention after not seeing her this weekend. Guess again...

So, I think it's going OK. I know that I need to pull back and I'm doing that. I feel like I can do it, just because I'm not as into this as I was before. This was a pretty good warning for me. So, now I guess I'll just wait and see. Either this is going to bring her back in (and then I'll try to handle it better) or it's already done and she just wants to stop by and be friends (which I'm simply not interested in). It's not ideal, but it's better than it was yesterday.

Happens ALL the time Dude,

See we put too much importance into a woman WE LIKE. The ones we don't care for chase us badly - we treat the indifferently and they want us.


Some old quotes:

"That which is chased - RUNS!!!!"

"People WANT what they can't have" - you gave yourself to her and she was bummed out I'm sure - woman WANT A CHALLENGE!! Always - regardless of the crap they will tell you - it's ALL tests!

"Treat the ones you like, like the ones you don't like - treat the ones you don't like, like the ones you like"

YES! You always end conversations FIRST - ALWAYS!! Phone and at work - it helps with the attraction.

Just give this time - you sound like you're still in the ball game. Take it SLOW!! You have time on your side - YOU CAN MAKE THIS BETTER.

No friends zone - OR, I know you won't believe this - say that first!! You become 10 times a challenge then. Be indifferent towards her. You have TO BE DIFFERENT THAN OTHER GUYS. Don't be nice - but don't be mean.

Keep teasing her - to no end for now. Kingpin here was IN THE SAME BOAT AS YOU - NOW HIS GAL CAN'T GET ENOUGH OF HIM. He did a 180 degree on her because HE STOPPED being a Wuss.

Wildcat, you've got this pegged.

I became a wuss and I really do think she was bummed out. When we first started going out she told me that most guys just don't get her, that they couldn't walk the fine line between giving her a little bit but not coming on too strong (or being TOO cocky and arrogant). She told me this and I didn't listen!

She knows I don't want to be friends. I told her that all the time when we first started going out. I told her that if this goes sour, don't bother. Of course we can't hang out, why would I spend my time doing that?! No, I won't ignore her but we're not going to be bud's. She told me that was strange because she's friends with most of her ex-'s. Duh! Not me.

I'm glad to hear that you think time is on my side. I want to agree but sometimes I would wonder if it was just too late already. I guess if I'm still talking to her then I am still in the game. Now at least I know what to do! I guess we'll see how the next few days go. I'll just stick to the plan and hope that she cracks first.

Happens ALL the time Dude,

See we put too much importance into a woman WE LIKE. The ones we don't care for chase us badly - we treat the indifferently and they want us.


Some old quotes:

"That which is chased - RUNS!!!!"

"People WANT what they can't have" - you gave yourself to her and she was bummed out I'm sure - woman WANT A CHALLENGE!!!! always - regardless of the crap they will tell you - it's ALL tests!

"Treat the ones you like, like the ones you don't like - treat the ones you don't like, like the ones you like"

YES! You always end conversations FIRST - ALWAYS!!!! Phone and at work - it helps with the attraction.

Just give this time - you sound like you're still in the ball game. Take it SLOW!!!! You have time on your side - YOU CAN MAKE THIS BETTER.

No friends zone - OR, I know you wont believe this - say that first!!!! You become 10 times a challenge then. Be indifferent towards her. You have TO BE DIFFERENT THAN OTHER GUYS. Don't be nice - but don't be mean.

Keep teasing her - to no end for now. Kingpin here was IN THE SAME BOAT AS YOU - NOW HIS GAL CAN'T GET ENOUGH OF HIM. He did a 180 degree on her because HE STOPPED being a Wuss.

Yes this stuff works. Not only saw all the tests but knew what to do. Never appear needy. Do your own thing and do not make any woman your life.

I don't know if the women you all deal with don't know about the hugh self esteem sale going on now at wal mart or not, but they need to get there ASAP!!
First of all, as I said before, I don't like to toot my own horn but, I would have absolutely no problem getting any guy that I wanted. If I pursued a guy, he had ONE time and I do mean ONE time to blow me off and I would simply move the hell on.
If you are dating a women, it is not a wise thing to do to pour yourself all over her and put her on a pedestal for the simple fact, she may not be worthy. Save that for the woman that is going to be there for the long haul.
I wish that I could tell you what goes on in the mind of a woman but we could be here all night. Sometimes we really don't know what it is that we really want until we got it.

Oh one more thing, the guys that I can't have are all gay.

Letmeno - sorry hun - I highly doubt that. No way. You women SAY what you prefer - but it's what you feel is all that matters. Guys doing this stuff creatye massive attraction in a woman - it's what you guys crave - AND it's not games - it a guy being a real man. You couldn't get enough of him.

If you are really attracted to the guy your with he probably is a lot of fun, he teases you a lot, knows your tests, bust on you. No pressure from him.

(but from one of your previous posts - I don't think he is - he sounds like a bore to you considering what you are CRAVING!)

It's ALL your feelings - I don't think your current guy provides you those feelings you crave or you wouldn't cheat or think about cheating.

Let me know about his - I know a lot of what goes on in a woman's mind now - you guys jump from thought you thought - multi task in your brain. You guys rely WAY too much on feelings. You guys generally think the opposite of what a guy thinks.

Guys are based almost solely on logic. What we think a woman wants is totally the opposite - woman are in the bizzaro world compared to guys.

My gal LOVES tulips - If I could I would buy them EVERY day!! I would buy her fields of Tulips... BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOO she would hate all that. I have to use it sparringly.

See with a guy - I love scotch, cigars, beer etc. - she could buy me that every day and I WOULD LOVE IT!!

Swriter - "She told me this and I didn't listen" - I know - happened to me last January AND I KNOW better. I almost lost the gal - you CAN and will get her back if you want her.

You have to play it cool - like she doesn't matter - Don't share your feelings for like TWO years.

You got to learn to tease - KEEP IT UP. I bet you thought it didn't go well BECAUSE YOU HAVE CONFUSED THE HELL OUT OF HER - she wants to know where Mr. Wuss boy is - WELL you need to show her Wuss Boy has left the building AND he is NEVER coming back. You tease her until she's 70.

Now, when you get seriosu maybe 6 months from now - then you can start answering some of her questions (some). For now it's indifference boy.

o.k. o.k. o.k. A lot of what you say is absolutely true, we do ride an emotional roller coaster. But I sware to you, we usually don't know what it is that we want until it is looking us in the face. I don't know how many times that I have bought a pair of shoes only to wear them once and return them. I do agree with you, men are more cut and dry than we are and have the emotions of a rock, that is where we come in. swriter, I don't mean to take the focus off your delima but I feel as if you need to create a balance with this female. I will admit, a pushy, needy guy gets a big 0 on a scale of 1 to 10. It doesn't matter how hot he is. What I am saying is this, don't over play yourself.
I guess I can't speak for all women all I know about myself is that I can have just about any guy that I wanted, why do I need to chase one?
I must admit, you are absolutely correct on a lot of things, it's the teasing and the game playing that I don't agree with

Well, I'm doing my best to play it cool. I don't have much choice. I don't want to make the mistake of smothering her again. I mean, I don't want to totally blow her off (because as letmeno says, I'm sure she'll go find the attention elsewhere) but I'm not going to act like losing her is the end of the world. We'll see how tomorrow goes. She plays in a co-ed volleyball league every Monday night, and she usually asks me to come watch. I used to go to most of the games but didn't go last night. This weekend I made other plans with some buddies to watch football. I got a text message from her afterwards telling me how it all turned out. I think that's a good sign, as long as she wasn't hanging out with one of the guys on her team that has been ALL OVER HER for months! Wildcat, how do you deal with stuff like that? I know this guy has just been waiting for me to get out of the picture. Do you just say screw it and not worry about if you wants to start dating him?

It certainly is a fine line to walk.

I'm still hanging in there Wildcat but I just don't know about this... She's already stopped by here once today and we chatted. I ended the conversation, but I must say it was pretty much pointless. Just general information exchange. Same thing with a string of emails that have been sent back and forth. The hardest part is feeling slightly off my game. I feel like I'm trying too hard to be cocky and funny when she's around, and she's just not taking the bait. She laughs, but it's forced. At least I keep trying to bust her balls. I think she smells the uncomfortableness, though. What do I do about that? If I were initiating the contact I would stop, but she is so how do I get out of the situation? This is frustrating. Another test, I guess... And when, if ever, do I ask her out again? I don't really want to anytime soon, but I also don't want her to think we're in the friend zone... Let's hear it Wildcat!

Well, if the guy has been trying for months he must be a massive Wuss!! For woman, it's almost INSTANT if they like you or not. All this guys attention means NOTHING if she has no feelings for him. Time generally never matters - either almost immediately she has feelings for you OR not. Yes, she may enjoy this guys attention - but from what you have said - he has ZERO chance. This guy should have closed the deal immediately - and he didn't - he's OUT.

WELL - that's WAY too much commuication - string of e-mails?? Yuck - you're doing the same crap ALL over again. Too much attention. Just don't return them - your busy. You're making the same mistakes. This WAY too much communication - YUCK!! Stop that. You really should only be exchanging communications twice a week. You may be I nthe friend zone with the e-mails and text. Quit answering them.

You're just confusing her with the cocky funny - which is great. Be indifferent. You REALLY need to read David Deangelos book at www.doubleyourdating.com. Keep it up -if anything it's good practice.

When you do go out - it'sd something casual - NO DINNERS - not for a long time. If a woman is interested she will go do anything with you. Coffee and stimulating conversation.

Well, I know she has some interest in this guy. In fact (and I didn't know this at the time), we both made our play for her at the same time. It worked out better for me, but he's always been around and I know he's trying. I know she likes his attention. She flirts with him a lot and always talks about how he's a great guy. I hope you're right that this shows that he's not much of a threat.

The problem with communicating so infrequently is that she works a couple buildings away from me. It's too easy for her to just stop by, call or email. If I respond (and I don't always), I try to keep it light and keep it fast. Just be a little cocky and funny but don't get into anything heavy and try not to talk about what I'm doing everyday. I do occasionally remind her that we're not going to be good buddies, though if this doesn't work out. No way...

I think the trouble is that we were talking all the time before and now we're pulling back. Maybe it will take some time to get used to how this is going to work out.

Dude - she would have been with him alreay. She's trying to make you jealous and test your jealousy factor - which seems to me is sky high and she knows it. If you're a man, confident, other guys shouldn't matter and she WOULD know this and want you more. Women HATE jealous guys. This guy shouldn't even be a factor in your mind, because IF she wanted to be with him she would have already - he's a Wuss. Woman don't want 'great guy'. If that guy had any game he would have been with her.

Quit responding to all the commuication - your busy - that MASSIVE Wuss boy behavior - massive.

Pulling back is good - you become a challenge again.

I see what you're saying about her and this other guy. In fact, whenever she flirts with him and I'm around it's almost too obvious. I mean, it so blatant that it must be for show...

Well, so far pulling back has been easy. I mean, I never have to do any work. She stops by my work 3 times a day. It wouldn't be nearly as annoying if she wasn't just talking about herself, all the stuff she's doing and being stand-offish. Honestly, why come to see me then? I make these cocky/funny comments showing her that I'm not that into her and she just acts like she can have any guy she wants. Whatever dude... Today she was even talking about how we should get together later in the week. I said that I wasn't sure if I could because I had a busy week coming up. She came by later to tell me that it was a bad idea anyway. What a freak.

Luckily I'm going to be out of town this weekend so I don't have to be around her or worry about if I should ask her out if she is going to ask me out (and I think I'd have to decline). My question is... how long do I go on blowing her off? How long do I refrain from asking her out, ending any conversations earlier than she wants, not answering her calls or emails, not calling her back right away (or at all). Days? Weeks? Months? Or just until either she can't take it any more or I find someone else? As letmeno said, if I keep blowing her off, eventually she'll just go find someone else, right?

See - you're trying to get your power back from her. You'll know when it's right to ask to 'HANG OUT'. (no dates, absolutely no dinners).

I suspect you realize right now is not a good time. Probably a couple weeks. DON'T WORRY ABOUT TIME!! It took me over 5 months to get my gal back completely. (3 months zero contact)

Don't answer her calls or text messages over the weekend - you'er busy. (but I suspect you will) - it will make her go crazy.

See - she's a player - she knows all this stuff - she keeps up a great front in front of you - I suspect she is wondering why you're acting the way you are now... but she is a pro - I suspect she is wondering why your not all needy all of a sudden.

See - you need the feeling AND ATTITUDE that YOU are the PRIZE - not her. Not her.

These aren't games. These are ways to get your power back. That's what we are doing here.

See - you're acting like a Wuss now. Don't worry about time, absolutely don't worry about communication - you've done way too much of it - you want to give much less of yourself.

"As letmeno said, if I keep blowing her off, eventually she'll just go find someone else, right?"

This should not matter IF you behave properly - don't act all needy, quit the communication to only a couple a week, be busy, go out, even date (yes!! ).

You're trying to rebuild attraction - she wants this MORE than you do and again was totally bummed out you turned into a Wuss.

I guess you want to go back to your old tactics - tell me how that goes for you??

This is change and it is a change for LIFE. Woman don't want the soft sensitive guy - never. Get rid of that guy now!!

I know this is probably hard to believe, since I've been acting like such a WUSS, but I'm finally getting it now. The problem before was that I was trying to convince myself (and her) of all of these things.

That I'm the prize, not her. That she should want to see me all the time because she can't do better. That I can make it just fine without her. That I'm not needy and insecure. That her tests to make me jealous are no big deal. That I can get her back eventually, but it will be on my terms. But now I actually believe it. I know it's true. Tonight is the first night in a while where I'm not checking the phone and email to see if she tried to contact me. I bet she won't, but so what! This is where it starts. After a few weeks I'm sure she'll be all over me.

Yes, I want my power back. I'm not going to see her or ask her out. If she calls, I'm not going to answer. I'll make no effort to see her or contact her. And if she comes by to see me, I'll be on the go. I am a busy guy! I doubt that she'll send me any text messages this weekend, but even if she does I won't answer. I know you don't believe this, but I do! I'll be out of town at a wedding with my college buddies. I won't want to be talking to her! I know I'm up to this challenge.

Another problem is that I was trying to use logic to figure this out. That is a bad idea! There is no logic here. As letmeno said... she doesn't have a clue what she wants anyway. That changes daily and who knows what causes it. Certainly not me...

I guess I was worried about it being awkward because we work for the same company and we see each other a lot. I was also worried because we had sex pretty early on and she claims not to do that very often. I was worried that she'd regret it. But, now... You know what? I don't care so much. I won't feel awkward, even if she thinks it's weird. And, she made her decision to have sex. It's too late to worry about it now. So be it, that's all in the past.

No, I think I should be OK for a while... Top notch advice as usually wildcat. I guarantee, I'm not going back to wuss boy.

Here's a good one for you Wildcat. Just got a text from her (and I'm not responding).

"You were such a smart today. I bet you think it's intriguing and endearing. It's not. It's annoying."

Love it!

Dude... that WAS A GOOD thing there. Changing the power. Keep it up.

Can you SAY a TEST?? Yes - she is looking for an apology from Wuss Boy.

She wouldn't have sent that if she cared.

The thing I don't get is all her contact??

And it's not annoying - it shows you're a confident guy who is not afraid to say something funny OR off the wall AND WORRY AT ALL WHAT SHE MIGHT THINK. Get it?

She's used to guys, like the guy she tries to make you jealous with, to sucking up to her, compliments etc.

Do thing different.

If she brings it up tell her "what are you talking about?" - you got to come up with a snappy answer - trust me.

You're turning int a challenge again.

Yeah, I didn't even respond to her text. Whatever. If she brings it up to me I'll just tell her... if she can't handle me being a smart she might want to stop talking to me now because it's only getting worse from here!

I don't get her contact either. Why the hell is she stopping by to see me 3 times a day when all she does is either about stuff or act kind of mean and stand-offish. Do me a favor then... don't bother. I don't care if she stops by or not. She's not doing any favors for me by doing that. Maybe she thinks we're already in the friend zone. Sorry but I'm not looking to provide her with therapy.

I assume you listened to all her problems before??

NEVER do that again early on - change the subject OR, even better, say that's boring. Say it's boring now.

Not going to the volley ball game was a good move. She texted you afterward, it means that she missed you there.

The other guy, well that is adding a little bit more to the story. She needs some time to figure out what it is that she wants. This is where you need to administer a test of your own. Find you another focal point. What I mean is find someone else to date, or find another female friend. I can't for the life of me figure it out but to women a really attractive guy is an unavailable guy. (this is so sad, I am actually advising you to use a woman!) I am only speaking from a woman's p.o.v. but this may cause her to actually freak out that you may actually be intrested in someone else other than her. It's a gamble either way but if someone were chasing me and all of a sudden turned his attention to another woman, I would be pissed. She will size the other woman up, convince herself that she is way hotter and go in for the kill. Women are catty like that, don't know why. Just a suggestion.

1. Attraction - Hey letmeknow - wouldn't you say almost instantly woman decide if they like someone ore not. A guy literally only has a few minutes before he is put in the 'friend zone' for ever?? I thinks it's VERY rare for a guy to get out of the friend zone. It's attraction and she either thinks of you as a lover or friend - and it's next to impossible to change her mind. I really think this gal is just playing the other guy - he was too much of a Wuss to get here. Swriter doesn't have to worry about him.

2. I don't think it's a gamble at all to date another woman. It's all good. She will go crazy - especially since he is evicting his inner WUSS. She will get jealous. Plus, maybe you like this new gal better?? She will see him in a new light - HEY other woman like this guy as well - he must be something - it recrerates him being the prize.

In the first 5 minutes of an initial meeting we already know if we can see ourselves sleeping with you or not... granted that you don't say anything stupid.

You are put in the friend zone if we are not sexually attracted to you but you have some qualities that we do like i.e. funny, quick witted, amusing, etc. The chances of coming out of the friend zone into the more than a friend zone are very slim but, it does happen. If we happen to see you in a different light or something of that nature.

I had a guy literally chase me for years. He was a really wonderful guy, a complete gentleman, he wasn't @ all unattractive, he was very funny, generous and had a lot of qualities that I did find great about him. I just wasn't attracted to him in that way. We are still friends till this day (5 years later) but the chances of him coming out of the friend zone are 0.

YES, exactly. I've asked 100's women and I always get the same response.

GUYS!! If you're attracted to her - first impression is all that matters.

Very rare to get out of that friend zone.

Yeah, there were definitely times when I listened to her crap. Trying to either fix problems or stay out of her way when she was in a bad mood. I know, I know. Wussy. Well, not any more...

Well, I know that in the first 5 minutes she was attracted to me. She may not be now and maybe thinks we can just be friends. I won't do it, though. There isn't anything in it for me. In fact, I don't think guys can really be friends with girls. They always think there might be a chance that something more could happen. I know that's how I am, anyway. If a girl just wants to be friends, I'd rather focus my energy elsewhere.




I assume you listened to all her problems before????

NEVER do that again early on - chnage the subject OR, even better, say that's boring. Say it's boring now.

Ok, Wildcat, Kingpin and letmeno, what do you think of this one? Before I could even finish my morning cup of coffee she was in my office. Again, I did everything I could to keep the conversation light, and most importantly, short. I said I had to run off and meet someone and that I had to go. That's when she started laying into me. She called me crabby and asked me what my problem was these past few days. I said there was nothing wrong and that I wasn't crabby. Just like any other day... My question is... is this the best approach?

I mean, I have no interest in the drama and arguing about what's been going on between us lately. It's been unsaid thus far and I think that's a good thing. I don't want her to think that this has entered my reality AT ALL. So, I'm not going to fight about it and so far I've just lied and said that there is nothing going on. Basically I'm letting her believe that any perceived change in my behavior (bye bye wuss boy) is all in her head. I'm the same guy as before. But is there some middle ground? Without getting into anything too heavy, should I be breaking her balls about it? Playfully tease her about how clearly things are different but whatever... I don't know. Maybe that's impossible and just lying about it and continuing to be unavilable is the best thing. What do you guys think?

Brush it off - it's a test. AGAIN - she's looking for Wuss Boy.

And, I think you said it - trying to put you in the friend zone so she dumb her problems on you - DON'T ALLOW THIS!! Don't.

But, if you're doing it right, you shouldn't come across as crabby.

She's looking gfor the 'nice guy' friend.

ALWAYS say - everything's GREAT!! Remember - asnwer these questions with a question - "Why are you so crabby now?" or even "Why do you dump you're silly problems on me?" Answer the question with a question.

Walk away also - get up and get coffee - "Everything is GREAT, Bye"

No fights - she's testing you, plus, woman love use their emotions - this is a goof thing.

Nope - 'Nice guy' for now - I don't think you get this yet at all - please down load David Deangelos book at www.doubleyourdating.com - seriously.

You sound like you're going to break - this a new attitude with woman.

Keep doing it - she keeps coming around, but it's NOT BEING MEAN!!

Keep it light - make fun, tease. Always. OR, you won't get her and won't get other women. It's learn the rules. Eventually it will be seconf nature.

You don't quit get that woman don't want the 'nice guy'.

Don't worry about what she say's, it's how she feels that counts. With my girl I learned she hardly ever means what she say's. You really have to be patient and play it off. If she see's that you care that she called you 'crabby' your going to look like wussboy. Tease her, show her you don't care and it will stir back up the attraction. Once the attraction is dead stick a fork in you.


Ok, Wildcat, Kingpin and letmeno, what do you think of this one?? Before I could even finish my morning cup of coffee she was in my office. Again, I did everything I could to keep the conversation light, and most importantly, short. I said I had to run off and meet someone and that I had to go. That's when she started laying into me. She called me crabby and asked me what my problem was these past few days. I said there was nothing wrong and that I wasn't crabby. Just like any other day... My question is... is this the best approach?

I mean, I have no interest in the drama and arguing about what's been going on between us lately. It's been unsaid thus far and I think that's a good thing. I don't want her to think that this has entered my reality AT ALL. So, I'm not going to fight about it and so far I've just lied and said that there is nothing going on. Basically I'm letting her believe that any perceived change in my behavior (bye bye wuss boy) is all in her head. I'm the same guy as before. But is there some middle ground? Without getting into anything too heavy, should I be breaking her balls about it? Playfully tease her about how clearly things are different but whatever... I don't know. Maybe that's impossible and just lying about it and continuing to be unavilable is the best thing. What do you guys think??

Nope - 'Nice guy' for now - I don't think you get this yet at all - please down load David Deangelos book at www.doubleyourdating.com - seriously.


Book is great - read it all in about 2 hours

I didn't mean that I was going to show her that I care about her calling me crabby. I don't... She can think what she wants. I was just looking it ore as an opportunity to break her balls over it. I must not have been clear. I have no intention of trying to patch things up or convince her that I'm not crabby. I was just going to use it to give her and try and be cocky about it. Maybe that's not possible, though.

Absolutely give it back to her if she calls you crabby. Bust her on it. Test her - "Then I'll a;ways be crabby"

She's testing you.

You've put WAY too much importance into this.

"With my girl I learned she hardly ever means what she say's" - EXACTLY!! I learned this a while ago. QAs Letmengo says - most woman don't know wha thtey want until it's staring them right in the face - my gal broke with me - I didn't talk with her for 3 months - nothing - didn't return the 3 calls she made to me... I finally sent an e-mail, we slowly started to talk... she said the minute she SAW me after almost 4 months - she knew she wanted me. It hit her like a ton of bricks.

Really, I'm not putting all that much importance into her. Yes, she comes to see me but I always try and end the conversation when I can. I don't go see her, I don't call, I don't email anymore. I was serious when I said I honestly believe that I'm the prize here. If she's not willing to work to get me, then so be it...

Every chance I get I'm busting on her. If she gets pissed, so what. One thing is for sure. Love me or hate me, she'll know that I'm different from all the other boy toys that chase her around. I'm not about to let her get away with anything...

she said the minute she SAW me after almost 4 months - she knew she wanted me.

Wow that's the same thing she said to me, although it was 2 months

"wow thats the same thing she said to me, although it was 2 months"

That's what happens. You change and become a man again - you evict the inner Wuss!!

See, these gals are bummed out as well that you act like a Wuss. You get that out of your head and they can't get enough of you.

It's CALLED learning the rules!! Giving them what they want AND US also having a lot of fun with it.

Swriter - I think she doesn't know what to make of you - I have a feeling shortly she will be all over you IF you keep the sort of brush off going.

The Matirx: "I think he is beginning to believe!"

Oh wow! She has noticed a change in your 'tude. We do often try and have a male friend we can dump all of our relationship baggage on. We need that male opinion. Knowing what will happen before it actually happens keeps our leverage. You already said that this type of relationship with this gal is in no way what you want, then stick to your plan. My question is what do you plan to do if this is her intentions? (to put you in the friend zone) Are you going to completely disregard this girl if nothing comes of this?

Yeah, pretty much. I'm just not interested in being her friend. I have no desire. I mean, I won't ignore her or trash her to other people. I'll be professional at work and cheerful if I do happen to interact with her in a personal situation, but that's it. I'm not going to go out of my way to contact her or invite her along to any social functions. What's the point? I'll just focus my efforts elsewhere and forget about her. I look at it this way, if she tries to put me in the friend zone then... I wanted to go out with her and she said no. She think that's too much and just wants to be friends instead. Well, I'm not interested in that, and I want nothing instead of that. In each case the person who wants less from the 'relationship' gets it. That's the way it always goes...

Yes - I think she wants to dump on you because you listened before. Don't listen, be busy - THIS IS WHAT I HAVE DONE - "Seriously, you should be discussing this with your girlfriends, not me" - it works and shuts it off immediately.

I still think she may come back, if you can wait this out and be a man about it.

Trust me. I'm going to have no trouble waiting this one out now... I'm just not willing to work at it any more. Either she can work at it or it will be done. I've got time...

"I'm just not willing to work at it any more." - that is the attitude you actually need - I know it doesn't make sense, but that's what you need!!

Yeah, I really think so. It was just no fun beating my head against the wall and watching, literally watching, while it slipped away. It's not like she was doing me any favors by keep me around a little longer. She should have ended it sooner so I could move on. But, I guarantee that I won't have any contact with her for the next 5 days, even if she gets a hold of me. She can wait.

I definitely think that you should wait and see, play the role that you have been playing.
What if forgot to tell you all before is that in some cases, men start in the more than a friend zone, we quickly realize that he may not be the more than a friend type and find a nice friendly way to slide them into the just a friend zone.
I don't blame you swriter. You have the right to be in the type of relationship that you deserve. It is great that you are not willing to be "friends" with her just to be in her "hotter than thou" little world!

Letmeknow - they were lovers and then he became a Wuss- happens to guys ALL he time when they don't know any better.

He is working to get her back - WHICH I KNOW HE WILL!!

Guys don't know about this unless someone tells them!!

Us guys get all soft and would do anything under the sun for gals we love - YOU GUYS HATE THAT!! HATE IT!!

We're just trying to show how loyal we are - yet you guys get repulsed!!

Wildcat, you have it exactly right! Well, here's the latest development.

She stopped by my office again yesterday, again asked me why I was so crabby. I didn't take the bait. I was overly cheerful and just tried to end the converstaion early. Then she wanted to 'talk'. She flat out asked me if I was going to warm up to her and at least be her friend. I told her no. No hard feelings, I just don't want that. Wildcat, you will love it. After spending 10 minutes trying to convince me that I was being irrational and that I should just go along with it (she even dropped the 'well, maybe if we're friends it can develop back into something more than that' line) but I still declined. She then threw a little tantrum. She told me that this really sucks because she 'always gets her way' in situations like this. She told me that every one of her other old boyfriends jumped at the chance to still be her friend. I just said, 'Honey, I'm not like all your other old boyfriends'. I told her I wasn't going to chase her and wait around while being her friend in hopes that something may develop later on. Forget it, moving on. It's a waste of my time and of hers. She asked me one last time if I was sure about this, I said yes and she just said that she was going to miss me as you left my office.

So... here we go. I think now I'm finally at a stage where there will be no contact. Time to put the plan into action.

I almost forgot. While I'm sure all of this was prompted by my WUSS boy behavior, I discovered something else yesterday. One of her close friends is getting married in a few weeks and her ex-boyfriend (the one that totally hosed her) is coming back for the wedding. Apparently they have been talking A LOT lately. He said that he wants to see her and when she told him about me, I guess he wasn't too happy. It was clear to me that he doesn't want her but he doesn't want anyone else to have her either. So, yeah I was a WUSS, but there is some other stuff going on behind the scenes. EIther way, though. My path forward is clear.

WAY TO GO!! You are da man!! Nice. I LOVE IT!! You did not give in and be a Wuss!! You didn't do what ALL the other guys did.

If you wanted a romanic interest to develop again there was no shot IF you went into the friends zone. NEVER go into the friend zone!!

You have her head spinning so much!! You may get a text message tonight!! I may NOT seem logical, but you did the right thing to keep the options open - woman are in the bizzaro world.

You handled this so well.

Yeah, there is no doubt in my mind that this was the right thing to do. Sorry, I'm not going to let her have her cake and eat it too. No contact from her tonight, and I don't really expect it. That's fine. I'm willing to wait and focus on other things. Either she'll come crawling back and actually try a llittle harder or she won't, and at least I didn't end up looking like a fool.

It may take some time, but I think you will have a great shot. You're doing all the right things to have that shot.

If you could go on a date and some how let her know with out telling her. That would help a ton. Woman get so jealous.

Yes - the key is you didn't end up looking like a fool or a wuss. Very important, VERY ATTRACTIVE to woman.

[QUOTE=Wildcat21]

If you could go on a date and some how let her know with out telling her. That would help a ton. Woman get so jealous.

QUOTE]

I totally agree! This one little move, and you will see a side of her that you have never seen before. Women HATE this. She is going to totally turn a shade of green that will make crayola smile!

WILDCAT I have a question. Doesn't the love tactics say that people want someone they can talk to. I mean when you break up with someone and try to get back into their life, don't you need to show them that you can be a good listener and be there for them. Isn't that what people want.

Hey MommaLove,

Yes - it's important to be friends when developing a relationship. If you're not friends and don't necessarily get along, you won't last. I mean there are people out there who are in love (lust, smitten) but have nothing in common and really don't know a lot about each other. It's like a friendship love.

Then there is the dreaded 'friend zone' someone can put you in - they treat you like one of their friends. They will never have a romanic interest in you again if you allow this.

Swriter problem is way different. He broke with his gal. He is trying to get her back. She is trying to put him into the friend zone. He has a whole different ball game. He needed to change, stop being a wuss, cut contact etc. They've already had a romantic interest and she ended it - there are things he needs to do - as we have discusseed in great detail on this thread.

Very accurate description wildcat. So far, so good. I got the drunken text message last night, and that was ignored.

Well, I returned back to town late Monday night and am still sticking to the plan. 've gotten a few emails, a few text messages and I know she's stopped by my building mulitple times (coworkers have told me) but I wasn't around. The only time I responded at all was to an email that was a mix of personal stuff and some questions about work. Ianswered the work questions and left it at that. I do have a date tonight, too bad there was no obvious way for her to find out about it. I could have told her myself but there was no way it could have come up (in email or text) without it looking obvious so I just left it out. How am I doing so far Wildcat?

If I were in here shoes, I would definitely be wondering what in the world is up, and second guessing myself by now. I don't know what wildcat would suggest right now, but if you gave in right now, I highly doubt that anything would change. She WILL become more persistent. Trust me on this one! Just stick to your guns and be very clear that you have no desire to be her "buddy" How did your date go?

The date went fine. Nothing special, but it was OK. Turns out I took a date to a little social gathering and she (the old one) found out about the party and that I was there. I got an email from her about it asking how it went (first thing this morning). I don't think she knows that I brought a date, but she does know that I went to the party and didn't ask her to come along...

Sounds like it's going very well. Keep it up! Wow, all this communication from her?? That's great about the party - she's probably bummed you didn't ask her - this is a good thing she may feel she is missing out!

Be ready, she is going to become more and more persistent.