I hope someone answers this one - I'm having little luck on this board.

My yard is (mostly) very shady and the ground is pretty moist. There are a lot of large trees surrounding.

I'll soon be seeding to patch some pretty major bare spots in the lawn. Any suggestions?

Bluegrass? Ryegrass? Fescue? Fine or tall?

Fertilizers?

Lime?

Timing? Fall? Spring?

Not knowing where you are located as to climate I can only suggest you topsoil the whole area you wish to improve with at least 6 to 8 inches of top soil and reseed the whole area with a shade mix of grass seed. I would do this in the summer time when the ground isn't too wet from snow melt and spring rain, even though as you say, the trees are probably your worse culprit and you may not ever see good grass grow in that area.

If the area isn't too large I would personally consider turning it into a garden with shrubs and perrenials.

Well, I would put agricultural lime down at a rate of one ton per acre. This will turn the ground white. Then sow with a shade area grass mix from a farm supply or walmart store.
Good luck. This can be a hard task to accomplish.

tickle disagrees: how do we know which area of the US he lives in.

Read his location title Tickle, he lives in Long Island New York.

Thanks.

* OK, so lime for the ph - got that.

* Do this in *addition* to topsoil? As for topsoil, do I grade down 6 inches, then fill in, or do I just lump it on top of the existing ground?

* Shade seed -- here's a confusion -- I bought some and it is 60% "tall fescue" and 20% ryegrass, and 20% fine fescue. Is this a good mix?

The lawn is mostly shaded, but some of the bare spots are in pretty good sun.

It doesn't see a lot of traffic -- no dogs, no kids. But it is moist a lot.

* Oh, and can anyone tell me the difference between "crab grass" and "kentucky grass"? They both kind of look the same to me, and I have a bunch of it throughout the yard.

Weeds have a red root, when you pull up crab grass it has a red root, Kentucky blue grass is one of the grass seeds incorporated into a general mix of grass seed.

Lime use is used when a low PH is found in the soil, normally in the atlantic provinces and states and I guess you qualify because you are in New York State, right? I would suggest having your soil tested for PH though. As for top soil (without lime) just add it on top after roughing up the dead lawn, or whatever you have. I would suggest renting one of those machines that skims up sod and getting rid of any diseased issues on top before you put on the top soil. You see why I suggested turning it into a garden. I garden extensively and would never put myself through all this work without an alternative; my alternatives usually work out well and are far more pleasing to the eye then 'just lawn under trees'. If you want suggestions along that line as to perrenials that spread well throughout there second year, ask. Perrenials do not take that much care and only get better with age, plus you can split them up and move them about to other parts of your property. Ambitious suggestion, but that's what gardening is all about, IMO.

Just go to Walmart and buy a few bags of their shade mix. I have never gone wrong buying from chains stores for lots of grass seed, although, you might have a bulk seed store near you that has excellent advice re grass seed and they would be completely local and KNOW what you should use.

I never give up on gardening, and especially problem areas. So here is another suggestion you may want to consider and one that many of us know will help a really problem area without a lot of expense and work and that is ground cover. I use periwinkle (plumbago) which has a dark green shiny leaf and violet coloured flowers almost all year long and can be transplanted from one area to another just by pulling up a tiny bit with roots and digging a small hole. The other is english ivy which is a very aggressive ground cover,not only used on houses, but on the ground as well but takes two or three years to really get a ahold of the area to be covered but very attractive as well.

So you see there are many answers to your problem, the other is everygreen shrubs, or ornamental grasses.

i never give up on gardening, and especially problem areas. So here is another suggestion you may want to consider and one that many of us know will help a really problem area without a lot of expense and work and that is ground cover. I use periwinkle (plumbago) which has a dark green shiny leaf and violet coloured flowers almost all year long and can be transplanted from one area to another just by pulling up a tiny bit with roots and digging a small hole. The other is english ivy which is a very aggressive ground cover,not only used on houses, but on the ground as well but takes two or three years to really get a ahold of the area to be covered but very attractive as well.

So you see there are many answers to your problem, the other is everygreen shrubs, or ornamental grasses.

Thanks Tickle.

Your suggestions are really interesting, and I might use some of them on some parts of my yard, but the problem I'm having isn't under a tree per se. The great expanse of the lawn is shaded for probably 75% of the day. So right in the middle if the yard are bare spots that just haven't had a chance.

Keep in mind, I just bought this house, so I have no idea how much or little the previous owners maintained things.

Actually, I don't even have any trees in my yard. But the neighboring trees are *enormous* all around (100 ft+). We've cut back on everything that even comes *near* the fence line, so now we have what we have.

I'm going to try a 70% fine fescue, 20% ryegrass, 10% bluegrass mix to help give it a chance.

Well, I see tinkerbe, I mean tickle sees that purchasing top soil may not be such a good idea after all. Wake up tickle. Top soil in NY state is very VALUABLE!

well, i see tinkerbe, i mean tickle sees that purchasing top soil may not be such a good idea after all. wake up tickle. top soil in NY state is very VALUABLE!

Don't sweat it, MM. I don't plan on buying topsoil. At least not at this point. My soil I s pretty rich, I'd say. I mean, I haven't had it tested yet, but I really think the shade and moisture are the culprits here.

Any advice on buying lime, or do I just grab any old one and slice it in to wedges? :D

Sorry, I had no idea top soil would be at a premium in NYS. I am in southeast Ontario and order it by the square yard for my gardening work and landscaping for others.

Sorry, I had no idea top soil would be at a premium in NYS. I am in southeast Ontario and order it by the square yard for my gardening work and landscaping for others.

Haha! I'm downstate NY, so *everything* is at premium! I think they're planning to charge for rain soon.

I had no idea topsoil was at a premium in NYS and too expensive to buy; there is no way I could have known that through any research. I live in southeastern ontario and even though good quality topsoil is expensive at any given time, I order it by the square yard for my own uses plus the landscaping I do for some clients. So it is a necessity for me.

I wasn't suggesting a large quantity and you did say your lawn was patchy in places and I said 6 ot 8 inches of topsoil knowing full well you probably had it (topsoil) in other areas of your problem area. I meant for top dressing to hold the seed.

I thought the extra topsoil dressing would take care of the dampness, but it being a damp area you may never get rid of the problem and alternative measures may have to come into play. As a landscaper I could suggest some over and above any offered before. Good luck in solving your problem. I hope the lime addition helps, I will leave mowerman to recommend on that as I have never had to use lime in any of my applications.

HA HA, antipode12. Hmm, lets see, I guess topsoil would be cheaper than that type of lime. No seriously, contact an agricultural service agent at your county's extension office. They are part of the USDA administration. They can probably direct you.

Thanks for your help guys.

I've decided to send off a sample to the Cornell Ag. Center for analysis. That should help.

I'll keep you posted -- probably begin work on it in a month.

Did you contact your county agent? They could help you more, seeing as how I do not know your area that well.

OK, so here's where we are, if anyone is interested:

I killed off really bad crabgrass sections of the lawn and removed the grass/ turf. I'm going to rough up the top layer, lay down lime, fertilize, seed, set with a coating of topsoil, and water. Often. For a few weeks.

Whaddaya think about that apporach?

Not sure how shady is "very"
But grass will not grow in the shade

Being originally from Long Island myself, those shady areas are best served with a fine fescues, sowed in early spring, fertilize in the fall from the middle of August till your last mowing. Fescues are really the best for shady areas. Poa Supina is also good but its hard to find and high priced. The soil for most parts of Long Island, at least in Suffolk County where I was from was really beautiful and rich. But there's a lot of humidity and shade areas or trees everywhere, so it's a wet type situation. There's also plugs and how about other ground covers like a bed of Ivy?

FYI -- I seeded with a fescue/ ryegrass mix in late October (60's - 70's here for weeks after).

The grass sprouted nicely and came in pretty full in some places, but the very shaded areas did not sprout at all. Also, I don't think I seeded heavily enough, because in the places where it sprouted, it came in spotty.

Anyway, I'll give it a heavy overseeding in the spring and we'll see how it goes.