I just heard on the news that within 3-10 years, artificial life will be possible.

My first thought, is that I've heard more people than not say how we're overpopulated as is. I speculate that to a degree, proof of that is that abortion is still going on.

My second thought: will this person have a soul?

XenoSapien

I don't think abortion is related to overpopulation, not sure how you made that link. Birth control is related to overpopulation.

And it depends what you mean by a soul. I don't believe that I have a "soul". I'm blood, bones and gristle.

What do they mean by artificial life? Test tube babies? Androids? Nano-bots? Self-replicating helixes in a plasma chamber? It could come in many guises.

I guess then, this question is for people who believe in a 'soul'.

XenoSapien

Here is the link.

FOXNews.com - Scientists Believe Artificial Life Will Be Possible in 3 to 10 Years - Science News | Current Articles (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,293764,00.html)

If you don't believe that dogs and other animals have souls, then why should these life forms?

God gives the soul to humans right? So these guys aren't even made by God, why's he going to go around giving out his souls like that? :)

I just heard on the news that within 3-10 years, artificial life will be possible.

My first thought, is that I've heard more people than not say how we're overpopulated as is. I speculate that to a degree, proof of that is that abortion is still going on.

My second thought: will this person have a soul?

XenoSapien

I am a believer in the Almighty Creator and humans having souls.
As a believer in both I do not think anyone is capable of creating a fully functioning living being .

As the book I believe states-
"O mankind! A similitude has been coined, so listen to it (carefully): Verily! Those on whom you call besides Allâh, cannot create (even) a fly, even though they combine together for the purpose. And if the fly snatched away a thing from them, they would have no power to release it from the fly. So weak are (both) the seeker and the sought."
--------------------------------------
Another thing is in your referenced article it says
"Bedau figures there are three major hurdles to creating synthetic life:

— A container, or membrane, for the cell to keep bad molecules out, allow good ones, and the ability to multiply.
— A genetic system that controls the functions of the cell, enabling it to reproduce and mutate in response to environmental changes.
— A metabolism that extracts raw materials from the environment as food and then changes it into energy."

In the light of the above points I would like to say that there is no chance of contributing to overpopulation as it does not seem really likely to create a pseudo human or human in the first place.
Another thing is that abortion does not lean towards overpopulation, but more towards careless teenagers and/or adults who do not want children ( or parents who donot want unhealthy children).

Ah! Xeno thank you for explaining, in that case yes, you must ask yourself just how close to true life this artificial life is :)

Since God created all life, and gave each member a soul, when we create life, do we do likewise, even if it is not a conscious step?
Is the process of changing something from a bundle of chemicals into a living breathing replicating thing equivalent to giving it a soul?

(I am of course trying to extrapolate from not my own beliefs but from the beliefs of others, so I hope you will forgive and correct any errors in assumption that I make).

Understood, and a fair angle to take on it, Capuchin. After soaking in your good questions, I was quickly reminded of a bumper-sticker I once saw:

"Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you" --Signed, God.

From my angle, there is pre-determination. Before you or I or anyone else was just an "itch in our daddy's pants", God chose where to deliver each human, creature and kind.

With this artificial life, it is man making that choice, although still very much a life, yet not a pre-determination by God but rather by man, hence man "playing God", and that is where I have hit the crossroads. Will they/will they not have a soul?

XenoSapien

Hey Xenosapien,
I think you are right man "playing God", which would mean it is not real.

And life itslef, giving or taking is not in the hands of man, it is with the Creator.So there is no question of a soul or not.

Just my 2 cents :)

P.S
And Xenosapien you said "not a pre-determination by God"
There's nothing in this world or beyond that the Almighty has not " pre-determined".

Don't you think?

I don't think abortion is related to overpopulation, not sure how you made that link. Birth control is related to overpopulation.

Not to get too far off topic here, but in fact abortion may be related to over-population, as in China. In much of the country the government enforces a mandatory 1-child rule, which leads to (a) either forced abortions of those who become pregnant after already having a child in violation of the rule, or (b) voluntary abortions if the sex of the one child you are allowed to have is found to be "wrong." Of course the government claims that (b) is illegal, but the reality is that vastly more female fetuses than male are aborted in China.

Well said, ebaines. It was funny how a co-worker and I were talking about China and that very issue. I thought that you had to petition the government to have any child, but I guess my co-worker was right that you could have one; then after that, you have to petition, right?

XenoSapien

How many countries on this planet have that rule?

Medical science is bringing more bodies into the world through science. And keeping more bodies alive through science. We've studied the human body and I've never once heard anyone (doctor/scientist/teacher/etc) say they've ever seen a soul. We can already generate tissue in a dish, thanks to science. An entire human only takes nine month gestation, give or take a few weeks or days. And if it's "too early", still frequently, that body survives, too. Why wouldn't that same science be applied to the generation of the entire grouping of cells. Maybe if they had no soul, that body wouldn't comprehend pride, covetousness, lust, anger, gluttony, envy, and sloth. What if that was good?

Medical science is bringing more bodies into the world through science. And keeping more bodies alive through science. We've studied the human body and I've never once heard anyone (doctor/scientist/teacher/etc) say they've ever seen a soul. We can already generate tissue in a dish, thanks to science. An entire human only takes nine month gestation, give or take a few weeks or days. And if it's "too early", still frequently, that body survives, too. Why wouldn't that same science be applied to the generation of the entire grouping of cells. Maybe if they had no soul, that body wouldn't comprehend pride, covetousness, lust, anger, gluttony, envy, and sloth. What if that was good?In my experience, science in general doesn't care much for something they cannot prove exists; there is no 'hard-evidence' of a soul, which is why it is something that is only found because of a belief.
If they had no soul, I believe as you do: the body wouldn't be able to comprehend pride, covetouness, lust, anger etc. but also I believe the body also wouldn't understand goodness, kindness, righteousness nor even God. In other words, a sociopathic creature that cannot distinguish the difference between right and wrong. I believe that it is the soul that can give a body the opportunity to distinguish the difference; it's up to the mind to accept the soul's interpretation and hence make consciencious choices.

XenoSapien

So a fly knows right from wrong, but doesn't have a big enough brain to take advantage of that information?

So a fly knows right from wrong, but doesn't have a big enough brain to take advantage of that information?
Good angle, but no, a fly does not know right from wrong because animals are basically one-dimensional thinkers. They only know survival; food, shelter, water and procreation. They do not have rational thinking as humans do.

Think of the soul like this, Capuchin: As I've stated, all creatures have one. All living things have at least one thing in common; we are all alive.

But the difference, for an example, between say a human and a craw-dad is their physical make-up. Our skeletons are on the inside, theirs is on the outside; yet we are still BOTH living creatures.

Much the same is the soul. We all have one, but that of animals is different than a human's. My perspective about knowing right from wrong is strictly a human angle; not that of an animal. Perhaps I should have made that clear.

XenoSapien

Okay, thank you for taking the time to explain, so the complexity of their soul is roughly related to the size of their brain?

Lol, no! :) I would guess not... but then, there are dumb animals! :)

XenoSapien

In my experience, science in general doesn't care much for something they cannot prove exists; there is no 'hard-evidence' of a soul, which is why it is something that is only found because of a belief.
If they had no soul, I believe as you do: the body wouldn't be able to comprehend pride, covetouness, lust, anger etc., but also I believe the body also wouldn't understand goodness, kindness, righteousness nor even God. In other words, a sociopathic creature that cannot distinguish the difference between right and wrong. I believe that it is the soul that can give a body the opportunity to distinguish the difference; it's up to the mind to accept the soul's interpretation and hence make consciencious choices.

XenoSapien

All of what you're describing sound very much like rasing a child: they need taught right from wrong, don't put your finger in the socket...

And you can't explained why "normally" generated bodies go lunatic or psycho, or any of the other birth/growth anomalies that abound.

All of what you're describing sound very much like rasing a child: they need taught right from wrong, don't put your finger in the socket...

And you can't explained why "normally" generated bodies go lunatic or psycho, or any of the other birth/growth anomalies that abound.Precisely. Much like raising a child.

Man was created with a defect. There is and has never been a perfect human; nor will there ever be. Only God is perfect. It's up to man to manage this defect.

XenoSapien

"Defect" may be too harsh.

But man is weak, we will stumble, but still try.

The cure for boredom is curiosity, there is no cure for curiosity.

.

Only God is perfect.

The Neanderthal was present long before our time. The slate was cleared. Now it's our time. What next?

"Defect" may be too harsh.

But man is weak, we will stumble, but still try.

The cure for boredom is curiosity, there is no cure for curiosity.

.Man is not perfect; hence my chosen term, 'defect'. Curiousity can be satisfied without the display of a weakness. Yet man still enacts those weaknesses. A 'defect'.

XenoSapien

The Neanderthal was present long before our time. The slate was cleared. Now it's our time. What next?
Excellent question.

XenoSapien

I just heard on the news that within 3-10 years, artificial life will be possible.

My first thought, is that I've heard more people than not say how we're overpopulated as is. I speculate that to a degree, proof of that is that abortion is still going on.

My second thought: will this person have a soul?

XenoSapien


Crazy humans:D


They kill their unborn one one hand and on the other hand they try to create life.

"Several scientists believe man-made life forms will one day offer the potential for solving a variety of problems, from fighting diseases to locking up greenhouse gases to eating toxic waste"


Does anyone else see the irony in this?




What goes unsaid in the article

FOXNews.com - Scientists Believe Artificial Life Will Be Possible in 3 to 10 Years - Science News | Current Articles (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,293764,00.html)

Is that these scientists start with the basic building blocks of dna, use their intelligence and probably computer aided programs to control lab conditions just right and they still face major hurdles in forming just "protocells."
What of tissues, organs, interelating organ systems and then a final organism.



God must be chuckling at this:)





Grace and Peace

Crazy humans:D

They kill their unborn one one hand and on the other hand they try to create life.

"Several scientists believe man-made life forms will one day offer the potential for solving a variety of problems, from fighting diseases to locking up greenhouse gases to eating toxic waste"

Does anyone else see the irony in this?
What goes unsaid in the article

FOXNews.com - Scientists Believe Artificial Life Will Be Possible in 3 to 10 Years - Science News | Current Articles (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,293764,00.html)

is that these scientists start out with the basic building blocks of dna, use their intelligence and probably computer aided programs to control lab conditions just right and they still face major hurdles in forming just "protocells."
What of tissues, organs, interelating organ systems and then a final organism.

God must be chuckling at this:)

Grace and Peace

I see the irony of the whole thing.
They are not creating artificial life, but tinkering with what already exists.
I have heard of not so nice results from such experiements, with deformed creatures.

About fighting diseases,
Wasn't the African killer bees cross bred with the normal honey bees to create some sort of bee that was better and the experiment went wrong and now there have been an increase in the attacks of bees on humans and livestock?? (If anyone could/would correct if this a wrong information I would be grateful):)

I wonder if God is chuckling at man's discovery of insulin or penicillin or antiseptic medical methodology? He may but a few billion people on this planet don't care, they are grateful for the lives that science has afforded them.

I wonder if God is chuckling at man's discovery of insulin or penicillin or antiseptic medical methodology? He may but a few billion people on this planet don't care, they are grateful for the lives that science has afforded them.

The difference between trying to create new creatures/humans is a lot different from medical advances in science.
And for those of us who believe in the Creator know that it is by His mercy that we are gaining the knowledge for such cures.

And the God chuckling bit, it may rile you or others, but I am sure it wasn't meant in a bad way.
The Creator already knows what the results of these new artificial life experiments will yield, it is us humans who do not, hence we debate about such things:)

Does anyone object to stem cell research, which I've heard could eventually enable medical science to reproduce a limb for someone who has been injured in an automobile accident or perhaps an innocent casualty of war?

Who will determine how far this type of research should or could go? Are we going to attempt to legislate a stopping point for learning?

As I've said before, medical science is already bringing more into the world and keeping more here longer. Those people don't object to what we're learning.

.

Does anyone object to stem cell research, which I've heard could eventually enable medical science to reproduce a limb for someone who has been injured in an automobile accident or perhaps an innocent casualty of war?

Who will determine how far this type of research should or could go? Are we going to attempt to legislate a stopping point for learning?

As I've said before, medical science is already bringing more into the world and keeping more here longer. Those people don't object to what we're learning.

.

I think if it is to help people in the medical field , as this limb maybe the one thing a person needs to be able to function I do not think there will be much we can say against it. Even for us muslims if a mother is in danger for her life due to her pregnancy then we are allowed to abort the baby.

My point was on trying to create a life,as I do not believe this is possible.
I think it would be a waste of research which if we spend that money on something which is more needed for human medical needs would be a better cause for research.

I do agree with the learning part and as this is needed for the sick and diseased to heal.
But I do not believe anyone being in this world longer than his life (which is predetermined by the Almighty), but I also believe in medication and healing and being healthy.:)

In order to know, research has to be done,but trying to create life...

I wonder if God is chuckling at man's discovery of insulin or penicillin or antiseptic medical methodology? He may but a few billion people on this planet don't care, they are grateful for the lives that science has afforded them.


I think God created us in His image, and imitation is a form of flattery.
He might look down on His creations with a bit of admiration with what we are doing with the intelligence He gave us. Remember the parable of the talents?

And

I think it is consistent with His will to use science to help others.


Grace and Peace

Don't you all think you are sort of jumping the gun here? The article is talking about creating microscopic life which on a good day will live for a few hours in a lab. That's a far cry from fully-functioning humans with thoughts and feelings and "souls" or whatever. The article doesn't even say they are trying to create humans.

CaptainRich you bring up a great point about stem cell research - it has the potential to save millions of lives. Stem cell research could eliminate the need for organ transplant lists, which means if you need one, they pick it off the shelf and you get one. No more waiting for someone to die, or dying while waiting for someone to die. It has the potential to really change medical science in some amazing ways. As far as how far will it go and when should we stop it, I say lets get to the point where it questions morality and go from there.

Here is the link.

FOXNews.com - Scientists Believe Artificial Life Will Be Possible in 3 to 10 Years - Science News | Current Articles (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,293764,00.html) I read the fox news report. It didn't talk about artificial humans, but microscopic organisms. We're still a long way from creating artificial humans such as androids or other artificial humans.

The creation of humans will be the next step. I'm casting my line a bit, but that is where the concept is heading.

XenoSapien

The creation of humans will be the next step. I'm casting my line a bit, but that is where the concept is heading.

XenoSapienNo it's not. It's for medical purposes, tissues and organs.