Ok I already know the answer to this one because I am gay. I just want to see what others think. There is no way that being gay is a choice. I would have never chosen this for myself. I would have wanted to fit in and be like everyone else. That is what all kids want. I am 18 now and have known I was gay since a very early age (like 10). There is no way this is a choice because at this age I knew nothing about sex... I just knew that I was attracted to boys.

No being gay is not a choice your born gay. You not feel ashamed nor different.
Your blood the same color as a straight persons.
You cry just like straight people cry.
Your just as special as any straight person so feel blessed that YOU were chosen to be gay.

I don't know if people are born gay, or maybe eternal pressure later in life cause people to be gay. I know that it isn't something a person chooses for themselves and I know this because I never had to choose I always was attracted to women. So if it was not something I had to choose most others probably didn't either.

Acting upon any feelings gay or straight is always a choice

Being gay is much more complicated that a simple choice. The question most people have is, nurture or nature. In my opinion, it's nature; people are born gay which, to me, is obviously a normal thing in nature that just... happens. The nurture theory just does not add up to me. There are so many children born into straight couples that become gay, vice versa. If you gay, BE PROUD! I hate it when people who are opposed to gays argue that they "chose" their sinner lifestyle and all of the BS... it's nonsense!

Acting upon any feelings gay or straight is always a choice

I respect you answer Chuck but I have to disagree. Being gay is more than just acting upon "feelings," it's who the person is. As straight individuals, we don't act upon our feelings of being straight, we just are.

Fr_chuck
So if the bible said it was wrong to be straight. Could you be happy giving up your hetrosexual lifestyle for god and settle down with a man?

Acting upon any feelings gay or straight is always a choice


No sorry if your attracted to men your attracted to men and there is NOTHING you can do about it

You can remain celebrate, both straight and gay can and may.

I don't believe that it's a choice. I believe that you are born the way you are. I think that being gay is like being born with brown eyes you can't help the way God chose to put you together.

I don't believe that its a choice. I believe that you are born the way you are. I think that being gay is like being born with brown eyes you can't help the way God chose to put you together.

I couldn't agree more.

Thank all of you for your comments. I would have to say that I'm glad that most of you believe that it isn't a choice. I agree with everyone except Fr_Chuck

I don't think gay is a choice because no one would want to go through so much teasing and consistently getting made fun of who they like how they talk and how they live life. Its not a choice that's for sure! And also gay is not something to be ashamed of I'm a Christian and I go to church I believe in god I just don't believe that god doesn't like gays or won't accept them so its not a choice and don't be ashamed your just as different as the rest of us no one is the same. You should not be judged for who you like but for who you are.

Thanks kyle22... I think you put it the best

I don't think being gay is a choice you like who you like

“Stop judging by mere appearances and make a right judgement”. (John 7:24)
"Judge not and ye shall not be judged". (Mathew 7:1)

So I don't understand why christians are so quick to judge every one well great topic to put up and I think most people would agree with us that it is not a choice

Kyle, I wish that everybody was like you. And I think that my church is one of the few churches that actually support gay people and gay marriages.

Yes sadly some churches have left Christianity and are supporting actual sin. Sad that they perfer to leave the teachings of their faith to be popular or accepted by today's culture. And of course we are not judgeing anything, since God has declared certain things right or wrong.
1 Thes 5:21 Prove all things hold fast that wich is good, So by what standard do we prove all things, Only by the word of God. And actually if you continue to read the rest of Matthew about judging, you will see that it actually instructs us to judge in two ways. First we are to judge sin in our own lives, then with pure attitude we are to help our friends and brothers judge there error that might be in their own life.
And the church itself has been instructed to judge as in 1John 4:1

So as in anything, theft, drunkenness, adultry and of course homosexual activities are all sin, not my opinion, not my judgement, but Gods.
But as Jesus would say to them that repent, your sins are forgiven go and sin no more.

You may be right Fr_Chuck but you really disapoint me and I always thought you were understanding but reading your posts changed my mind. Instead of using your heart, you go by the book. If someone went to your home and told you he was gay, would you tell him that he is a sinner and make him feel worse? And FYI, you never hear about a gay person killing his mate, but you hear about the heterosexuals that are abusing each other and such.

It's your choice. No-one should have to choose if you should be gay or not. If you decide to be gay then you shuldn't let other people make decisions for you. I don't care if people are gay or not, there choice

Gay is a sin, so is speeding ( breaking the law) over eating ( being to fat)
drinking, adultry and more. I don't see the issue, man are sinners, the only issue I ever have is that most gay do not want to admit it is a sin and just go on from there, but perfer to try to either change the bible or start some new religion.

I know I shock some and most will not believe I do have gay friends, not only from high school but had several neighbors in Atlanta. I have been to dinner parties at their home, had them in my home. I had a couple gay ( or lesbian I guess) bosses in Atlanta and they were OK bosses.

Just as I would not want a person living unmarried to his girlfriend being a pastor, I would not want a gay person living with their partner as a pastor either. We have a couple celebrate gay ministers in our group and I have no trouble with that.

I doubt I have a single person in the congregation any Sunday morning that is not a sinner of some level, and all need to work on improving their life. I have always just had the issue when they don't wish to admit their sin. But yes you do hear about abuse and murder even within the gay community, but since most states don't reconise their relatinships, it is not reported that way or recorded as a record. And since a big part at times of the murder issue is money, since in most states the life partner has no properrty rights if the other dies, so part or the major issue to these murders ( money) does not apply to the other.
I am only addressing this verry bluntly because it was a direct question,

Yes sadly some churches have left Christianity and are supporting actual sin. Sad that they perfer to leave the teachings of thier faith to be popular or accepted by todays culture. And of course we are not judgeing anything, since God has declared certain things right or wrong.
1 Thes 5:21 Prove all things hold fast that wich is good, So by what standard do we prove all things, Only by the word of God. And actually if you continue to read the rest of Matthew about judging, you will see that it actually instructs us to judge in two ways. first we are to judge sin in our own lives, then with pure attitude we are to help our friends and brothers judge ther error that might be in thier own life.
And the church itself has been instructed to judge as in 1John 4:1

So as in anything, theft, drunkeness, adultry and of course homosexual activities are all sin, not my opinion, not my judgement, but Gods.
But as Jesus would say to them that repent, your sins are forgiven go and sin no more.
I'll obviously have to spread it. But this says it all. As for actually being gay, I personally believe it's a combination of genetics and early life experiences that make one become gay. However, as Fr. Chuck already said, anyone, whether gay or straight, can choose whether to engage in sexual relations, with someone of the same or opposite gender. Biblically, it's a sin to engage in homosexual-type relations. And it's a sin to engage in heterosexual-type relations unless married to the person. Anyone, gay or straight, can choose to be celibate. Being attracted doesn't automatically compel you to engage in sexual acts, whether of the gay or straight variety.

Why the hell does god have to be brought into this discussion. I didn't see the OP ask anything about whether it is a sin or not. I didn't see the OP mention the word god. He may not even believe in the character.

I know most of you Christians have areal hard time accepting that not everyone believes like you. You struggle with the concept that many of us struggle with the concept of christianity that you so fiercely preach.

But please when a kid comes here and ask in a Teen forum a serious question about being gay can we leave god at the door where he belongs. He didn't post this in religion. He didn't mention the word god. If he did then I would say go ahead. But he didn't. So why must every time the gay lifestyle is mentioned must it turn into a god discussion.

I don't see you people doing it when someone asks about Theft Under 5000 or whatever. That's a sin. Why don't you rant on about his holiness then? I suspect it is because most of you are so offended by the gay lifestyle that you don't miss a chance to have your dig. Picking and choosing which sins are worse. Get over it.

To the OP. Whether being gay is a choice or not I don't really know. I tend to agree with you though that I don't think it is. However it doesn't matter. It doesn't make you any less of a human than the straight guy next door. At your age now it may be tough being gay. I understand that. And I'm sure it has its moments at any age. But hopefully you find as you get older most people don't judge you on your sexuality but rather on who you are as a person. Sure there will still be the bigots and sexists but who cares about them.

Just like they profess. You have a choice. You have a choice to ignore their intolerant views. You can ignore the people who judge you before knowing you. You have a choice to surround yourself with the people who really know you and love you for who you are.

Ok i already know the answer to this one becuase i am gay. I just want to see what others think. There is no way that being gay is a choice. I would have never chosen this for myself. I would have wanted to fit in and be like everyone else. That is what all kids want. I am 18 now and have known i was gay since a very early age (like 10). There is no way this is a choice because at this age i knew nothing about sex.....i just knew that i was attracted to boys.
I don't believe being gay is a choice.
I know people don't wake up one day and decide to be gay
Its just a feeling of attraction people start to get and you can't really do much about it

1 last thing. If churches don't allow homosexual's because they are gay which makes them sinners, why do churches allow overweight people? Or criminals?

I don't think 1 sin is any bigger than another, so shouldn't they all carry the same weight?

Gay or Staight = neither is a choice.

The only choice you may have is to embrace what you have or live in denial.

1 last thing. If churches dont allow homosexual's because they are gay which makes them sinners, why do churches allow overweight people? or criminals?

I dont think 1 sin is any bigger than another, so shouldnt they all carry the same weight?

I have to spread some rep first... but I love your answer! Well said :)

I did my college research paper on this subject. I have many gay and lesbian friends and have been around for the heckling, rude comments, and discrimination. I, myself, am straight so I took on this subject for research because I went to a "catholic" college so I thought I would raise some eyebrows and actually educate some people :)

Homosexuals constantly get asked how they knew they were gay... do heterosexuals ever get asked how they knew they were straight? No, it's simply who you are attracted to.

Studies on twins, brain anatomy, and DNA have uncovered remarkable results supporting the genetic cause of homosexuality. Studies on the genetic theory started in the 1800's. In 1952 German geneticist Franz Kallman studied gay twins, followed by support in 1991 by psychologist Michael Bailey and psychiarist Richard Pilliard who studied twins as well. The results showed the gentic link commonality between gay twins and siblings.

IN 1991 neuroscientist Simon LeVay studied brain cadavers. The hypothalamus which governs sexual behavior showed marking similarities in women and gay men, while heterosexual mens hypothalamus was 3 times bigger. The acutal makeup of the hypothalamus supported the results. Oregan Health Sciences University replicated the study and found the same results.

In 1993 Dean Hamer, a geneticist at the National Cancer Institution linked instances of homosexuality to a small stretch of DNA on the X chromosome. His results implied that the trait travel down the maternal side. Hamer scored the linkage with a technical measure that translates to a 99.5% certainty that there is a gene or genes on that particular stretch of the X chromosome that determines homosexuality... there are still more that 100 unidentified genes on that section that are still unidentified so there may be more that one causing gene.

In 2005 scientists from Brandeis University, Oregan State University, and Stanford University found ONE gene in fruit flies that conclusively reversed sexual orientation. Now I know you are thinking "fruit flies??" but scientists favor them for study of many dieseases and behaviors because they reproduce rapidly and complete an entire life cycle in a matter of weeks... and “Although humans and fruit flies are separated by 600 million years of evolution, the two species are remarkably alike at the cellular and genetic level” (www.brandeis.edu).


Too much evidence has proved that homosexuality is not a choice. Although it hasn't been narrowed down to a specific gene or genes in humans it eventually will... but there will STILL be those people who call them sinners and say it's a choice they made... but I just laugh at their ignorance.

Thank all of you for your comments. Lets keep this topic going and hopefully we can help to better inform some of the people out there.

Being gay is def not a choice. I had a friend who was gay and all he ever wished for was that he wasn't , he just wanted to fit in and belong.
Any one who thinks it is a choice isn't that bright

It is not attraction but it's addiction. You did not choose to be gay. One mistake, getting used to it and addiction. Similar to drugs. I just think that sex is so addictive, doesn't matter which kind of it(even masturbation).
I am sorry friend, but being a gay is abnormal. But it really doesn't matter at all because the end is death to anyone.
Try not to fool yourself that is the most unforgivable cruelty.

I don't really agree with you bemani. There is only one reason for this. I can not be an addiction because I have never fancied girls, and another reason it couldn't be an addiction from the sexual point of veiw is because I am still a virgin.

it is not attraction but it's addiction. you did not choose to be gay. one mistake, getting used to it and addiction. similar to drugs. I just think that sex is so addictive, doesnt matter which kind of it(even masturbation).
I am sorry friend, but being a gay is abnormal. but it really doesnt matter at all because the end is death to anyone.
try not to fool yourself that is the most unforgivable cruelty.


An addiction? Yes, I'm sure that gay people are addicted to being discriminated against, I'm sure they just can't get enough of the "gay bashings" and rude comments, I'm sure they thrive on getting told they are sinning and going to hell... hope you can sense my sarcasm...

An addiction? Yes, I'm sure that gay people are addicted to being discriminated against, I'm sure they just can't get enough of the "gay bashings" and rude comments, I'm sure they thrive on getting told they are sinning and going to hell.....hope you can sense my sarcasm....

I did not want to be rude toward respected gays. But gay is not natural, it's just sooo obvious.
Can we call it an illness(do not know psychologically or physically)? Like being blind. You can't make a blind person understand how beautiful fog can be. He may admit you but won't really feel it as you do.He can't understand. Gay can't see the beauty of the opposite sex(naturally should be able to). I don't say the blind don't have right to live but I just want him to respect the mejority. If he can't see, it is not his fault but he better admit that it is his deficiency.

Being gay is completely natural. Just like some people are born blind. Gay people can see the beauty of the opposite sex, they just find that they do not want to have sex with someone of that kind of beauty.

Being gay is completely natural. Just like some people are born blind. Gay people can see the beauty of the opposite sex, they just find that they do not want to have sex with someone of that kind of beauty.

When you have eyes which are supposed to see, can not see, natural? Not a logical. Statement. It is disability.
Please, it's just so simple man.

Fr_chuck
So if the bible said it was wrong to be straight. Could you be happy giving up your hetrosexual lifestyle for god and settle down with a man?


That's an awesome question.
And in response to chucks response, it was a hypothetical question, so responding with "but i it doesnt..." shows immaturity and a mind incapable of answering that question.
Being closed minded isn't too attractive, Chucky.

Thank all of you for your opinions and come on people lets keep posting!!

Being gay is a way of life. People are born that way. Everyone is different if it is color, religon, sexual orientation, nationality. It does not matter. We need to accept those that are different then us and learn from each other.

Hello Everyone,

The gay person/s are never to be treated cruely because they choose to be gay. I personally am a Christian and would never be gay. Why? Because I believe it to be wrong and a sin against the gay persons own body and their sexual partner but most important against God.

Would I hate or show anger or violent actions toward anyone gay? No. They are also God's creation, God created them and the person made himself gay. God created men and women. God also condems the actions of the gays. I though would never hurt them, treat them badly or call them names. Just my opinion, I did not tell people being gay is a sin, God did. 2 Cor. 6:9-11.

Do I love gay people? Yes. Why? Because We are to love our neighbors. Do I love the gay persons actions? NO. Why? I am to hate what God hates. If it is something that gay people are born with, ask yourselves this question.

Why would God create a person with homosexual tedencies and then condemn their actions?
Don't make sense to me.

Take care,
Hope12

I agree but disagree at the same time I don't believe being gay is a choice but they do have the choice whether to show their affections & their actions

The question of gay being natural is an interesting question. Many animals show gay behavior but also some animals as high up as reptiles, when faced with a single sex environment can change their gender to reproduce. So maybe gay behavior is something ancient in our DNA. Gene therapy has been used on rams that show gay behavior to make them straight. So assuming that genetherapy would work in humans should we do it at birth if they show the gene exists? Given the fact that animals show the same behavior and that there at one point in time there probably was an advantage in doing so. I would have to conclude that some people being gay is a natural part of life. Whether we should use medical knowledge to get change gay people I don't think that is something I can decide maybe when a child grows up he or she can make the choice for themselves but it would be a hard choice for anyone to make I'm sure.

The gay person/s are never to be treated cruely because they choose to be gay. I personally am a Christian and would never be gay. Why? Because I believe it to be wrong and a sin against the gay persons own body and their sexual partner but most important against God.


Number one... you would never be gay? It's not a choice. I suppose acting on your feelings would be a choice, but suppressing your natural feelings will cause more damage than good.

You response doesn't really address the question... the question was "is being gay a choice" not was it right in "gods" eyes, not what it says in the bible... the only point in your response that touched on the question was stating that god created homosexuals as well as heterosexuals.

As my original response showed... there have been overwhelming research showing that there is a genetic cause for homosexuality.

I agree that homosexuals should be harmed, or treated cruely, but the fact is that they are... and its from the ignorance that people think they choose to be gay, when it fact they were just born that way.

Queers are being promoted on television, because the people that control television want to destroy society. When you create a queer person then one person from the opposite sex has lost a mate and this will create more queers for that sex. In America and western European countries it seems have the females are lesbians, but in Eastern European countries it's not so bad. The television has influenced our society and is wrecking havoc on it. Fifty years ago you never heard of queers. You might know of someone who acted strnage and you stayed away from them. But today it is promoted by the communist who control the media.

This is a completely uneducated answer!

"Fifty years ago you never heard of queers"??

Have you ever read works by Plato, Socrates, Sappho etc.? Homosexuality have been practiced in ancient times. There are many historical painting, artwork, etc that depict two men together. The word "lesbian" comes from ancient Greece, the island of Lesbos, where many women travelled to and lived and had homosexual realationships.

You can simply 'google' homosexuality and see how obviously uninformed you are.

Number one....you would never be gay? It's not a choice. I suppose acting on your feelings would be a choice, but supressing your natural feelings will cause more damage than good.

You response doesn't really address the question....the question was "is being gay a choice" not was it right in "gods" eyes, not what it says in the bible....the only point in your response that touched on the question was stating that god created homosexuals as well as heterosexuals.

As my original response showed...there have been overwhelming research showing that there is a genetic cause for homosexuality.

I agree that homosexuals should be harmed, or treated cruely, but the fact is that they are...and its from the ignorance that people think they choose to be gay, when it fact they were just born that way.


Hello Macksmom,

In today’s modern world there at those who claim homosexuals are that they can not change. What though are the facts?

So here is my answer to the posted question: “"is being gay a choice?” Yes is certainly is. When giving your answers you left out the completed comments from those studies this one was taken from:
“Sex and the Brain” Discover, March 1994, Vol. 15, No. 3, p. 64
“Born or Bred?” Newsweek, February 24, 1992, Vol. 119, no. 8, p. 46.

I quote what study you gave in your original post with the study: “IN 1991 neuroscientist Simon LeVay studied brain cadavers. The hypothalamus which governs sexual behavior showed marking similarities in women and gay men, while heterosexual mens hypothalamus was 3 times bigger. The acutal makeup of the hypothalamus supported the results. Oregan Health Sciences Univeristy replicated the study and found the same results.”


You forgot to give the coments LeVay gave after he completed his work:
LeVay said, upon completing his work:
“It’s important to stress what I didn’t find. I did not prove that homosexuality is genetic, or find a genetic cause for being gay. I didn’t show that gay men are born that way, the most common mistake people make in interpreting my work.”

Some of LeVay’s peers questioned his research, noting that changes in brain structure could be the result of homosexual behavior, rather than the cause. Dr. Kenneth Klivington stated: “There is a body of evidence that shows the brain’s neural networks reconfigure themselves in response to certain experiences. Therefore, the difference in homosexual brain structure may be a result of behavior and environmental conditions.”

You quoted in your original post: “In 1993 Dean Hamer, a geneticist at the National Cancer Institution linked instances of homosexuality to a small stretch of DNA on the X chromosome. His results implied that the trait travel down the maternal side. Hamer scored the linkage with a technical measure that translates to a 99.5% certainity that there is a gene or genes on that particular stretch of the X chromosome that determines homosexuality...there are still more that 100 unidentified genes on that section that are still unidentified so there may be more that one causing gene.”

My understanding was not as yours was and what I found in Dean Hammer’s report and his concluding words different then what you quote:

Here is what I found taken from: Scientific American, November 1995.
“The Personality Genes,” Time, April 27, 1998, Vol.151, no. 16, p. 60.
“Research Points Toward a Gay Gene,” The Wall Street Journal, July 16, 1993, p. B1.
Dr. Hamer, upon completing his study, wrote: “These genes do not cause people to become homosexuals…the biology of personality is much more complicated than that.”
My findings seem to show different facts than yours did. Like the Simon LeVay study, it is hard to determine whether the changes in brain structure were the result of homosexual behavior, or the cause.

George Ebers of the University of Western Ontario attempted to replicate Hamers study. He examined fifty-two pairs of gay brothers and found no connection between the pattern of the Xq28 and the homosexuality of his subjects.11

What I find the most interesting about this particular study is that even after Hamer’s comments to the contrary, a few media outlets ran stories with headlines suggesting that a gay-gene had been unmistakably discovered. The Wall Street Journal’s headline read Research Points Toward a Gay Gene,13 and the Associated Press wrote Study Finds Genetic Link to Homosexuality.1

I quote you again in from your original post: “Studies on twins, brain anatomy, and DNA have uncovered remarkable results supporting the genetic cause of homosexuality. Studies on the genetic theory started in the 1800's. In 1952 German geneticist Franz Kallman studied gay twins, followed by support in 1991 by psychologist Michael Bailey and psychiarist Richard Pilliard who studied twins as well. The results showed the gentic link commonality between gay twins and siblings.”

Now here is the reports on those studies that you quote above as I have read them taken from “Born or Bred?” Newsweek, February 24, 1992, Vol. 119, no. 8, p. 46.
J. Michael-Bailey and Richard Pillard published a study in the Archives of General Psychiatry in December of 1991 on the prevalence of homosexuality among twins.

They studied 56 pairs of identical twins, where at least one brother was homosexual, and found that 29 of them (52 percent) were both homosexual. They also found that 12 of 54 pairs of fraternal twins (22 percent) were both homosexual and 6 out of 57 pairs of adopted brothers (11 percent) were both homosexual. Bailey and Pillard, therefore, concluded that homosexuality has a genetic cause.

As we mentioned above, environmental factors can can impact sexual development. Therefore it would be impossible for Dr. Bailey and Dr. Pillard to determine whether it was genetics or environment that caused the twins’ homosexuality unless the twins were separated. In fact, biologist Anne Fausto-Stirling of Brown University stated: “In order for such a study to be at all meaningful, you’d have to look at twins raised apart.”8
Furthermore, if it was, in fact, genes and not environment which caused the twins homosexuality, one would expect 100% of identical twins to both be homosexual, instead of 52%.

Dr. Bailey seemed to agree, he wrote:

There must be something in the environment to yield the discordant twins.9
The most powerful refutation of this study, however, is the researcher’s inability to replicate his own work. In a study released in March of 2000, Dr. Bailey and a group of his colleagues used an Australian population of twins to conduct a similar twin study with even lower concordance numbers. The researchers studied the largest carefully ascertained twin sample ever assembled for such a study. They found that, for women, only 24% were both homosexual and, of the men they studied, only 20% were both homosexual.

Upon completing this study the researchers said, “Consistent with several studies of siblings, we found that sexual orientation is familial. In contrast to most prior twin studies of sexual orientation, however, ours did not provide statistically significant support for the importance of genetic factors for that trait. This does not mean that our results support heritability estimates of zero, though our results do not exclude them either.”

Dr. Warren Throckmorton, an associate professor of psychology at Grove City College who has done research on homosexuality, was taken aback by Bailey’s own admission that genetics may have no impact on sexual orientation at all. He said, “Heritability near zero? This is a pretty amazing statement! And one that no one has heard in the popular media.”

In conclusion here is what the American Psychological Association asserts that: “There are numerous theories about the origins of a person's sexual orientation; most scientists today agree that sexual orientation is most likely the result of a complex interaction of environmental, family and psychological events at a young age.”

And the American Psychiatric Association wrote:
“Currently there is a renewed interest in searching for biological etiologies for homosexuality. However, to date there are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality.
Whatever the case, we know from the personal testimonies of thousands that homosexuality is a changeable condition. Stanton Jones, who is Chair of Psychology at Wheaton College states: “Every secular study of change has shown some success rate...”

The above state quotes were taken from:
The APA's booklet, "Answers to Your Questions About Sexual Orientation and Homosexuality."
American Psychiatric Association Fact Sheet, May 2000.
“The Loving Opposition: Speaking the truth in a climate of hate,” Christianity Today, July 19, 1993, Vol. 37, no. 8, p. 18.

“My definite answer after reading all the facts to the question posted; “Is being gay a choice?” without any doubt yes!
Take care,
Hope12

I don't know where the gay problem roots from but I personally don't believe that God would actually create someone to be gay... it is not a Godly thing... and I hope some day I can understand what causes it or how it happens... but one thing I would like to know... can a gay guy go straight? Does anyone know of any situations where this has happened... and if so, do you know what made it possible?

I don't have my intensive research I did on the subject with me but this is from Wikipedia...

"There is evidence of a correlation between sexual orientation and traits that are determined in utero. Williams et al. (2000) found that finger length ratio, a characteristic controlled by prenatal hormones, is different in people of distinct sexual orientations.[1] Another study by McFadden in 1998 found that auditory systems in the brain, another physical trait influenced by prenatal hormones is different in those of differing orientations, likewise the suprachiasmatic nucleus of homosexual men was found by Swaab and Hopffman to be larger in homosexual men than in heterosexual men, [2], the suprachiasmatic nucleus is also known to be larger in men than in women [3]. Gay men have more older brothers on average, a phenomenon known as the fraternal birth order effect. It has been suggested that the greater the number of older male siblings the higher the level of androgen fetuses are exposed to ."

"In a 1991 study, Simon LeVay demonstrated that a tiny clump of neurons of the anterior hypothalamus—which is believed to control sexual behavior and linked to prenatal hormones—was on average more than twice the size in heterosexual men when contrasted to homosexual men. Initially he could not rule out that this may be due to AIDS since all of his homosexual male subjects had died from it before the autopsies were performed. However in 2003 scientists at Oregon State University announced that it replicated his findings in sheep."

Supporting the difference in brain matter/size, among other things between homosexuals and heterosexuals.

"Another issue is the recent finding that even monozygotic twins can be different and here is a mechanism which might account for monozygotic twins being discordant for homosexuality. Gringas and Chen (2001) describe a number of mechanisms which can lead to differences between monozygotic twins, the most relevant here being chorionicity and amniocity.[7] Dichorionic twins potentially have different hormonal environments and receive maternal blood from separate placenta. Monoamniotic twins share a hormonal environment, but can suffer from the 'twin to twin transfusion syndrome' in which one twin is "relatively stuffed with blood and the other exsanguinated".[8] If one twin receives less testosterone and the other more, this could result in different levels of brain masculinisation."

Which helps support why identical twins, although they share 100% of the same genes may have different results.

As far as your statement made by Dr. Throckmorton "Heritability near zero?..." when in fact the quote from that study did not state that... it stated "This does not mean that our results support heritability estimates of zero, though our results do not exclude them either"

"Blanchard and Klassen (1997) reported that each older brother increases the odds of being gay by 33%.[20][21] This is now "one of the most reliable epidemiological variables ever identified in the study of sexual orientation."[22] To explain this finding, it has been proposed that male foetuses provoke a maternal immune reaction that becomes stronger with each successive male foetus. Male foetuses produce HY antigens which are "almost certainly involved in the sexual differentiation of vertebrates." It is this antigen which maternal H-Y antibodies are proposed to both react to and 'remember'. Successive male foetuses are then attacked by H-Y antibodies which somehow decrease the ability of H-Y antigens to perform their usual function in brain masculinisation."

"Bocklandt, Horvath, Vilain and Hamer (2006) reported that some mothers of gay babies have extreme skewing of X chromosome inactivation. Using a sample of 97 mothers of homosexual men and 103 mothers of heterosexual men, the pattern of X inactivation was ascertained from blood assays. 4% of the mothers of straight men showed extreme skewing compared to 13% of the mothers of gay men. Mothers of two or more gay babies had extreme skewing of X inactivation of 23%. This extreme skewing may influence male sexual orientation through the fraternal birth order effect."

"The species is commonly known as the fruit fly, and is one of the most commonly used model organisms in biology, including studies in genetics, physiology and life history evolution."
"The fruitless gene is a Drosophila gene that encodes several transcription factor proteins. It has several promoters, each encoding proteins with a BTB domain and zinc finger motif. Fruitless transcription factors are required for proper development of several body structures, including neurons and cells necessary for fly sexual behavior. Flies with mutations in the fruitless gene display altered sexual behavior, including, most prominently, redirection of normal male courtship behavior towards other males. Recent research has also revealed that males with the mutated version of fruitless fight each other as if they were females"



We can go back and forth here quoting all day long, but the bottomline here is that there is and abundant amount of evidence showing that there is some genetic factor that plays in determining homosexuality. If there wasn't there wouldn't be continuous grants for millions of dollars to find exactly what that is.

I am not saying, however, that life experiences do not play a role... it has been overwhelming stated that there is a combonation of genetic and environmental causes. But if the genetic cause isn't present then the environmental cause would have no effect... and vice versa... simple life experiences do not cause homosexuality alone. It is not a conscience choice of the individual.

"One prominent evangelical leader, Rev. Rob Schenck, who used to advocate reparative therapy, came to believe that homosexuality is not a choice after speaking with scientists, and that conservative Christians need to drop the choice argument in order to continue opposing homosexual sex. He was quoted in the Boston Globe as saying "if it's inevitable that this scientific evidence is coming, we have to be prepared with a loving response. If we don't have one, we won't have any credibility."

The bible states that God will love everyone... does that not include gay people?


In my opinion yes it does :)

I fully agree Tus!

It makes me sad when people hide behind the bible. God loves everyone and the bible is a piece of literary work that can be intepreted differently by anyone who reads it. Lets hope that those that judge so harshly now do not face such harsh words or actionswhen they stand face to face to God.

To me god loves everyone

No matter who you are or what you are.

I think he allows people into heaven whether you believe in him or not. Just because you go to church does not make you a better person. I think it should be based on what you do with your life. Like if you help the poor and such

God forgives everyone.

He doesn't hate you for a sin that you commit

That is what I think god

To me god loves everyone

No matter who you are or what you are.

I think he allows people into heaven whether you believe in him or not. Just because you go to church does not make you a better person. I think it should be based on what you do with your life. Like if you help the poor and such

God forgives everyone.

He doesnt hate you for a sin that you comit

That is what i think god

I think that you have put it better than anyone else.

Ok i already know the answer to this one becuase i am gay. I just want to see what others think. There is no way that being gay is a choice. I would have never chosen this for myself. I would have wanted to fit in and be like everyone else. That is what all kids want. I am 18 now and have known i was gay since a very early age (like 10). There is no way this is a choice because at this age i knew nothing about sex.....i just knew that i was attracted to boys.
it's not a choice. I had my first encounter with a girl in the second grade and it just felt right. Just as now it feels right. I'm 19 years old, about to be 20 and it hasn't changed how I feel when I'm with another female. To all the church going people that believe that it is a sin to be anything but straight, tell me why are you making the most high a bias judge? Are we not all made in his image?

That is exactly how I see it. I had my first encounter with a boy many many years ago. And I have never really been interested in girls. I just could never make myself date one.

I know a lot of people who are bisexual or gay and there happy
Are you happy with what you are?
If you are , who cares what other people think? Its your personal life
And I agree you can't choose if you want to be gay or straight or bisexual

You bring up a good point. I am extremely happy with being who I am. If anyone else doesn't like it then that is there proble.

It would just be nice if everyone could accept you for who you are and not for who they don't want you to be.

If that makes any sense.

you bring up a good point. i am extremely happy with being who i am. if anyone else doesn't like it then that is there proble.

It would just be nice if everyone could accept you for who you are and not for who they don't want you to be.

if that makes any sense.

Yeah it would be nice if people accepted everyone for what they are but some do some don't but who cares about them its your life not theirs :)

Ummm yes being gay is a choice and its kind of weird knowing that your gay at age 10 so I hope you find your answer

Do you have any proof that being gay is a choice? Have you ever been gay and then went straight?

Have you ever heard of a gay guy going straight honestly?

Most people I know that are gay have known as early as 7ish. They may have not known they were gay but they may have had different feelings towards boys.

Hello Everyone,

No one here is judging nor are they saying God does not love homosexuals. God’s mercy covers over our errors and sins, but does God’s mercy covers over all our sins and is God’s mercy limitless?

Some have been taught that God is all compassionate and loving and that he extends his open arms to everyone, no matter what they do in their life or how they live it. Many churches will say: “that homosexuals are persons made in God’s image and because Jesus died, God’s mercy will cover over that sin.” Does God’s mercy cover someone who persists in practicing such things as homosexuality?

Other churches will say: “If God does not abhor, but rather loves, the homosexual with the nature he was created with us can do no less. And this means that we must accept the homosexual as he is.” Now though, we need to ask ourselves, “Does God accept homosexuals as they are?”

If we are not familiar with what the Bible says or we are a careless reader of the Bible, it might cause some to agree with the above clergy statements. They may even think about Jesus reclining at a table and eating with tax collectors and sinners. But, do you remember what the Pharisees said to Jesus? ‘Why is it that your teacher eats with tax collectors and sinners?’ Hearing them, he said: ‘Persons in health do not need a physician, but the ailing does. Go, then, and learn what this means, “I want mercy, and not sacrifice.” For I came to call, not righteous people, but sinners.’” Matt. 9:10-13.

If we tend to read the Bible casually it would appear that Jesus was approving of the sinners because he associated with them. This also could be misunderstood and that he was counseling the Pharisees for objecting what Jesus was doing. But is this what is really happening hear? Take note, of Jesus’ introductory statement: “Persons in health do not need a physician, but the ailing do.” A discerning person would reason that Jesus was not condoning their sins but he was associating with them so as to cure them of their sins.

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus even admonished others by what he said: “Happy are the merciful, since they will be shown mercy.” Matt. 5:7 The fact that Jesus showed mercy, does it means he condoned sin? No, instead Jesus showed that we need to have compassion for the spiritually ill person/s as we would the physically ill. On one occasion a leper caught sight of Jesus and he fell upon his face and begged him, saying: “Lord, if you just want to, you can make me clean.” And so Jesus stretched out his hand and touched him, saying: “I want to. Be made clean.” Immediately the man’s leprosy vanished from him. Sometimes he told the one who was ill simply to pick up his bed and walk. But in other instances he said instead: “Your sins are forgiven you.” Luke 5:12, 13, 20.

The Bible says: “Do not be misled: God is not one to be mocked. For whatever a man is sowing, this he will also reap; because he who is sowing with a view to his flesh will reap corruption from his flesh, but he who is sowing with a view to the spirit will reap everlasting life from the spirit.” Gal. 6:7, 8 There is no doubt that God forgive the sins of all people and he looks with mercy upon all of us, because we are the children of Adam and we were born in sin. Ps.51:5

God tell us at Ezekiel 33:11: “I take delight, not in the death of the wicked one, but in that someone wicked turns back from his way and actually keeps living.” We who sin everyday sometimes take advantage of God’s patience and do not take to heart his warnings. Many millions have used the time God has given man to set matters right as an opportunity to practice all kinds of sinful acts that are contrary to what God has warned us against. God does love all people, but he does not love our sins! 2 Cor. 6:1,9 ; Rom. 1:28-32

I personally do not believe any on this site hate homosexual persons, many though do hate the act of homosexuality. Why? Because God hates it! 2 Cor. 6:9-11.

Sometime we humans take God’s mercy for granted to do what we want to do. That is being independent from God. When we only listen to God’s laws when we agree with them, that doesn’t obligate God to show compassion and mercy forever. The time of God’s forbearance is nearing an end. When it concludes, God’s angelic hosts will enter into their assigned work of execution, and God’s mercy will not cover those who are found still engaged in their lawless acts, who have not turned around and received the mark of true disciples of Jesus Christ. Ezek. 9:5, 6 When that time arrives, will God’s mercy cover all your sins?

Mercifully, Jesus healed both the physically ill and the spiritually sick, though not condoning their sin. When he warned them he did so with love and compassion, not to condone their sin but to help them to reach repentance and turn around to doing things God’s way and not their way.

I have seen gay men and women turn their life around. I know a young man who had feeling for other men and he had mentioned it started when he was very young. He soon learned that this type of lifestyle is disapproved by God and his desire to please God in all things, made him make changes to bring his life style in harmony with God’s ways. He is now happily married to a young women and they have children and he is an elder in our congregation.

I also have a friend who was gay. She was very much attracted to women; in fact she only dated other women. She came to learn about God and what He requires from each one of us, changed her life and married and is now a minister of God. She told me when she was gay; men repulsed her, now she is married to one. Was she truly gay?
Yes, she told me it started when she was about 5 years old. When we talk, I ask her all the time, “What do you think made you gay? Her reply after thinking about it was, “I don’t know, I just never liked boys.” “I then asked if she thought it was a learned lifestyle.” She then looked at me and smiled; “yes, because now I am happy, married to a wonderful man. I could not have done that if I didn’t have the ability to choose to change.” Most of all, she wanted to be pleasing to her creator and that is what helped her.

My closing comment is this: I do not hate homosexuals, some have ended up as my close friends, and I dearly love them. The two mentioned above are two very special people to me. I have deep respect and love for these two people and others who were homosexual and have chosen to change their lifestyle to please their creator. They did not use any excuses to make others except homosexuality as normal or approved by God. They did not use the excuse that people hate them because they are homosexuals.

Most God loving people, do not hate homosexuals but hate their acts of homosexuality. I say it is a choice because people I know who had homosexual tendencies since a very young age, have changed. If it wasn’t a choice, they would not be able to change. When we are born with something it usually stays with us the rest of our life. I have Cerebral Palsy, I don’t like it, but I can’t change it, I was born with it. Some Homosexuals have changed, if it was not a choice, it could never change. How do you explain this?

I am just curious, why the lesbians I have seen are all below average looking? And gays are above avg. looking?
I am just curious, nothing offensive. Really nothing offensive...

Well it just depends on what you look for. Most people see a hot girl and think she must be straight, therefore you only see the below average looking lesbians. And with gay guys you only look at the cute ones so you assume that they all must be cute. But trust me there are some really ugly gay guys and some really hot lesbians. You just have to look more closely.

I am just curious, why the lesbians I have seen are all below average looking? and gays are above avg. looking?
I am just curious, nothing offensive. Really nothing offensive...


Omg yeaa most lesbians are not that pretty
But
Gay guys are freaking HOTT but they are gay



Why is this

omg yeaa most lesbians are not that pretty
but
gay guys are freaking HOTT but they are gay



why is this

Lol, I know, I know... I have been curious about the fact... :confused: :rolleyes:

I hate it.
I'll see a hott guyy and start talking about him with my friends then along commes his boyfriend

And his boyfriend is hott too

Even from the ultra-religious posts I get a feeling that they do accept that you're born gay, or become gay at a very early stage.

Their only argument is that gay people should repress their NATURAL feelings, convert to heterosexuality, and be miserable for the rest of their lives. Only because from a book written over 2000 years ago, translated thousands times, with half the documents lost and re-written, it SEEMS like they say being gay is bad. Maybe 'wicked' means 'raping goats with a stick', not 'gay'? What sexual behaviour was accepted in that society?

So, straight people have a right to express themselves sexually, but gays do not? Why? Apart from 'because some guy said so' ? I seriously wonder whether fr_chuck is for real. I thought it was a satire.

I'm lost if churches don't allow homosexuals then why do they allow gay people get married?

You are not born gay. Being gay is a choice.

Hun be proud for who you are!!
Your happy about it
Don't care what other people think , its your life not theirs . :)

im lost if churches dont allow homosexuals then why do they allow gay people get married ??

They don't.. What kind of churches are you talking about?

There was a time when with out thinking I would have said being gay is a choice, but I know better now. My son dated a lot of girls but he was a unhappy person. From the time he was about 13 it was like he went from a happy kid to a troubled, confused and sad teen. It wasn't until he was 16 that I realized what was making his life so miserable. He was gay and struggling with the thought of losing everyone he loved because of it. When I finally realized, dealt with and got the nerve, I asked him point blank if he was gay. He became a much happier person when he found that his friends and I think more so I, accepted and loved him anyway. He helped me realize how stupid I was to even think it is by choice. Saying he was gay could have made him lose his friends and be tormented from other kids at his school. I could have turned my back on him and kicked him out. We live in the south and although there are a lot of younger people who are opened minded enough to accept it, there are still [B]many[/B who would rather try beating the gay out of him. Why would anyone choose to deal with all that? Answer is... no one would. As for me I would much rather see my child happy and gay than the miserable “straight” person he tried to be and who wanted to kill himself because he was gay. Being gay is by no means a choice and frankly it pisses me off to hear people say it is a choice. Even worse is when you try to make them understand the reasons a person would not chose to be gay and they still insist that it is a choice. A guy at work said if his son told him he was gay he would disown him. I told him, “You don’t really love your son then do you.” His reply was, “yes but…. “ I stopped him there and said,” Love has no buts…you either love him or you don’t. I firmly believe that!

You can remain celebrate, both straight and gay can and may.


That is a crock of Sh*t and you know it! Attraction is not just about having sex, it is what you think and feel inside. It is those feelings that will ultimately determine if you're gay or not.

They dont..? What kind of churches are you talking about?

I heard people saying that for example , elton john the singer and musician he got married to a guy few years ago , they allowed that

I did not want to be rude toward respected gays. but gay is not natural, it's just sooo obvious.
can we call it an illness(do not know psychologically or physically)? like being blind. you can't make a blind person understand how beautiful fog can be. He may admit you but wont really feel it as you do.He can't understand. Gay can't see the beauty of the opposite sex(naturally should be able to). i don't say the blind don't have right to live but I just want him to respect the mejority. if he can't see, it is not his fault but he better admit that it is his deficiency.



I guess nature is “abnormal” as well since some birds, beetles, sheep, fruit bats, dolphins, orangutans and I’m sure there are others that have been known to mate with the same sex.

Actually, stonewilder, homosexual behavior has been observed in almost every know specie of mammals and many birds. If it occurs in nature, it's natural.

I love this thought that homosexuality is abnormal. Depending on which definition of "normal" you use, everything is abnormal. I could argue that evangelical Christianity is abnormal because it is harmful to many, many people. Homosexuals growing up in evangelical Christian homes are more likely to commit suicide than homosexuals who grow up in moderately religious to not religious homes. Also, do you really think it is normal to believe that some guy got bored so he created the universe, inspired a book that is historically impossible to explain himself, demand our obedience and then gave us an overwhelming body of evidence claiming he doesn't exist? You'd have to be a crazy person to take the Bible as anything more than literature.

The best part about this whole conversation, though, is that people are directly arguing with evidence. Would it make sense for me to say, "Blacks don't have to be black, it is a choice. If you really wanted to, you could quit being a black." At least you actually can change your skin color. The current data show that one cannot willfully change their sexual orientation; however, we see people changing their skin color all the time (most obviously Michael Jackson's lightening).

I am so sick of religious people. I know this will offend people, but I don't care what "God" has to say because the only evidence for his/her existence is millenia-old texts and a couple of more contemporary works that make even less sense than the ancient works (Book of Mormon, any book by L Ron Hubbard).

It's your choice. No-one should have to choose if you should be gay or not. If you decide to be gay then you shuldn't let other people make decisions for you. I don't care if people are gay or not, there choice

What I mean to this statement is that people are not the one's who should tell others that he should be gay, or she should be lesbian. The only person who chooses who and what they are in life is themselves. People don't just go up to others saying "You! Be an electrician!" That person CHOOSES if he WANTS to be an electrician or not. Same with being gay. For example, person A cannot choose person B's life. Only A can choose with path he takes and chooses. See what I mean?

americangayboy disagrees: Maybe you should read some unbiased literature about this subject. You hate us because we're different and by pretending we choose this, you make it our fault. Take some responsibility for your hatred!

If you read what I said, There is no point of hatred in my post.
Yes it is true that I don't support Gay people. That doesn't mean I hate them. One of my friends is Bi. He is a very cool person. Sure it freaked me out when he told me. But that doesn't mean I hate him. I just don't support his decision. Same goes for gay people.

Actually, stonewilder, homosexual behavior has been observed in almost every know specie of mammals and many birds. If it occurs in nature, it's natural.

I love this thought that homosexuality is abnormal. Depending on which definition of "normal" you use, everything is abnormal. I could argue that evangelical Christianity is abnormal because it is harmful to many, many people. Homosexuals growing up in evangelical Christian homes are more likely to commit suicide than homosexuals who grow up in moderately religious to not religious homes. Also, do you really think it is normal to believe that some guy got bored so he created the universe, inspired a book that is historically impossible to explain himself, demand our obedience and then gave us an overwhelming body of evidence claiming he doesn't exist? You'd have to be a crazy person to take the Bible as anything more than literature.

The best part about this whole conversation, though, is that people are directly arguing with evidence. Would it make sense for me to say, "Blacks don't have to be black, it is a choice. If you really wanted to, you could quit being a black." At least you actually can change your skin color. The current data show that one cannot willfully change their sexual orientation; however, we see people changing their skin color all the time (most obviously Michael Jackson's lightening).

I am so sick of religious people. I know this will offend people, but I don't care what "God" has to say because the only evidence for his/her existence is millenia-old texts and a couple of more contemporary works that make even less sense than the ancient works (Book of Mormon, any book by L Ron Hubbard).


While I respect your opinion I just think this is a very uneducated response...

i heard people saying that for example , elton john the singer and musician he got married to a guy few years ago , they allowed that

It was a civil ceremony, not a marriage by church from memory. Two completely different things.

Unfortunately, fallen2grace, the only reasons not to be queer friendly are hatred and/or stupidity. So which is it? Do you hate us because we somehow threaten your "perfect" christian world or are you too stupid to see the facts? Homosexuality is normal and natural, and it's not harmful. Sure, I could choose to live my life as myself or I could live a life of misery running away from the truth. I choose to live the truth.

A note to goldilox: don't pretend you respect my opinions. I know that my thoughts about religion are unpopular in a world of political correctness, but at least I have the cajones to voice what I know is right (and, by the way, my thoughts are based on actual evidence, not a collection of books organized by anti-Roman revolutionaries to discredit the Roman Empire). I'm very open-minded to all sorts of ideas, as long as there is some logical basis for them, and I don't see any religion to have a very rational world view. I'm not saying that religion should be outlawed or anything like that, there is a lot of good that comes from religious organizations (Catholic Charities, for example) but you must see the difference between religious thought and scientific fact.

There was a time when with out thinking I would have said being gay is a choice, but I know better now. My son dated a lot of girls but he was a unhappy person. From the time he was about 13 it was like he went from a happy kid to a troubled, confused and sad teen. It wasn't until he was 16 that I realized what was making his life so miserable. He was gay and struggling with the thought of losing everyone he loved because of it. When I finally realized, dealt with and got the nerve, I asked him point blank if he was gay. He became a much happier person when he found that his friends and I think more so I, accepted and loved him anyway. He helped me realize how stupid I was to even think it is by choice. Saying he was gay could have made him lose his friends and be tormented from other kids at his school. I could have turned my back on him and kicked him out. We live in the south and although there are a lot of younger people who are opened minded enough to accept it, there are still [B]many[/B who would rather try beating the gay out of him. Why would anyone choose to deal with all that? Answer is...no one would. As for me I would much rather see my child happy and gay than the miserable “straight” person he tried to be and who wanted to kill himself because he was gay. Being gay is by no means a choice and frankly it pisses me off to hear people say it is a choice. Even worse is when you try to make them understand the reasons a person would not chose to be gay and they still insist that it is a choice. A guy at work said if his son told him he was gay he would disown him. I told him, “You don’t really love your son then do you.” His reply was, “yes but…. “ I stopped him there and said,” Love has no buts…you either love him or you don’t. I firmly believe that!

Parent will always love their children. Loving our childrren does not mean we need to approve of everything they choose to do.

Unfortunately, fallen2grace, the only reasons not to be queer friendly are hatred and/or stupidity. So which is it? Do you hate us because we somehow threaten your "perfect" christian world or are you too stupid to see the facts? Homosexuality is normal and natural, and it's not harmful. Sure, I could choose to live my life as myself or I could live a life of misery running away from the truth. I choose to live the truth.

A note to goldilox: don't pretend you respect my opinions. I know that my thoughts about religion are unpopular in a world of political correctness, but at least I have the cajones to voice what I know is right (and, by the way, my thoughts are based on actual evidence, not a collection of books organized by anti-Roman revolutionaries to discredit the Roman Empire). I'm very open-minded to all sorts of ideas, as long as there is some logical basis for them, and I don't see any religion to have a very rational world view. I'm not saying that religion should be outlawed or anything like that, there is a lot of good that comes from religious organizations (Catholic Charities, for example) but you must see the difference between religious thought and scientific fact.


being gay is harmful where your health is concerned... evidence have shown that there is a very high prevalence of Aids in the gay & bi sexual community... and I believe it is abnormal... it is pointless arguing with you where 'the bible or God or christianity' is concerned as it obviously seems like you do you believe but according to the fact that homosexuality is a sin... why would God our creator who is against sin create an individual in that form? And then condemn those persons after? Can u explain this?

Being straight can be harmful too if you get some girl or guy who has a lot of sex. Studies are stupid, studies showed that the earth was flat and those were wrong. Everyone is at danger no matter what you are.

Well, I can't really understand what you're asking.

Homosexuality is not abnormal nor harmful. Did you know that black women have the highest likelihood of being infected with HIV? I guess being a black woman is far more harmful to your health than being a gay man. Also, lesbians have almost no chance of contracting HIV. So they must be the most normal people on the planet.

Unfortunately for you, we're in a situation where an opinion can be wrong. Because you don't have credible evidence to back your claims, and I do, your opinion is wrong.

Well, I can't really understand what you're asking.

Homosexuality is not abnormal nor harmful. Did you know that black women have the highest likelihood of being infected with HIV? I guess being a black woman is far more harmful to your health than being a gay man. Also, lesbians have almost no chance of contracting HIV. So they must be the most normal people on the planet.

Unfortunately for you, we're in a situation where an opinion can be wrong. Because you don't have credible evidence to back your claims, and I do, your opinion is wrong

Opinions cannot be wrong. Answers can be. That's why They are called Opinions.


Unfortunately, fallen2grace, the only reasons not to be queer friendly are hatred and/or stupidity. So which is it? Do you hate us because we somehow threaten your "perfect" christian world or are you too stupid to see the facts? Homosexuality is normal and natural, and it's not harmful. Sure, I could choose to live my life as myself or I could live a life of misery running away from the truth. I choose to live the truth.


Aparently, You can't get it through your brain that I don't hate gay people. And since your set on it I'm not going to do anything about that. Why I don't support them? Why would I tell you? You already know. And How can you call me stupid if you don't even know me? Homosexuality is not by any means normal and that is my opinion. Anyhow you will just tell my my opinion is wrong.

You're right, I will tell you that you are wrong. Opinions can be wrong. Also, I didn't call you stupid, I asked if you were stupid. Normalcy is hard to define, and psychologically speaking, for something to be considered abnormal it must be harmful physically, psychologically or cause the subject a large amount of unwanted stress. Homosexuality is not physically or psychologically harmful, nor does it cause unwanted stress. Therefore your opinion is wrong. (If you just mean that homosexuality is less common than heterosexuality, I'll agree, but I'd bet money that that's not what you meant... it's certainly not how it came across).

Your "opinion" that homosexuality is a choice is laughable. There is overwhelming evidence stating that sexual orientation is not a choice AND that (in men) it is very stable. Your essentially saying that the scientic method, in this case, is wrong, without providing any evidence to back it up.

I have evidence. The bible. And at this I will stop. Because I know you will never take the time and actally read it. So farewell.

Parent will always love their children. Loving our childrren does not mean we need to approve of everything they choose to do.

Did I say you have to approve of everything they do? No I think I said"disown", that is not the same as disapproving. And no all parents do not love their kids because if they did they wouldn't turn their backs on their own flesh and blood because they don't want to deal with who their children are.

I agree.

The bottom line here is God would never create a person this way if he was against homosexuality... that in itself defeats the whole purpose... for those of you who do not believe in God, you may beg to differ but as far as I am concerned no matter where scientific evidence or your experiences etc are concerned, the bottom line is it is Not of God, so how can it be a natural thing... natural things come from God... and he would never create a human being in such form.if it was natural and normal and right, why do the churches preach against it?why is it referred to as sinful and immoral?I'm sure just as anything else that is wrong, your instincts tell you that it is... but of course some of us refuse to hear it just to accommodate ourselves... my facts cannot be more right... you can find it in the bible... but unfortunately for those who do not believe... it may mean nothing to you... another valid point I want to make... what is sex? Gay guys and lesbos talk about having sex... sex is the penetration of the penis into a woman's vagina;according to the oxford dictionary... Because intellectual integrity is essential in any meaningful dynamic interaction, let us consider the person, claims and message of Jesus Christ:
"Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.. " John 14:6

It is stated of Him in John 1:1-3; 10; 14: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

Jesus, Whom we worship, who is identified as the "living Logos", the very Word of God, literally believed the story of Adam and Eve, which He affirmed when He quoted it as true in Matthew 19:4-5:

"And He answered and said, "Have you not read, that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female," and said, for this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh'?"

Whenever God describes the creation of Mankind, He includes both male and female, and the creation of woman is unique, for she was created as a completion of man. Unlike the man and the animals, woman was created directly from man's bodily form, rather than from the dust of the earth. The completion of God's image therefore required both. Neither man nor woman can, within themselves, reflect the image of God without the other.

Genesis 1:26-28: "And God said, Let us make man in Our image, after Our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

So God created man in His [Own] image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them.

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

Then the man said, 'This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; this one shall be called Woman, for out of Man this one was taken.'

Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and clings to his wife, and they become one flesh.'"

Genesis 5:1-2: "This [is] the book of the generations of Adam {Mankind}. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made He him; Male and female created He them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam {Mankind}, in the day when they were created. Genesis 5:1-2:

It is obvious that two men together or two women together do not reflect the image of the triune God, but only within the unity of man and woman together is the reflection of God visible.

Homosexuality Is Without Scientific Basis And Is Rooted In Ancient Pagan Religion's Rebellion Against Our Creator God.
In the first chapter of Romans, God explains that the existence of homosexuality within societies, families, and individuals, is a natural result of rebellion against Him and His created order. Homosexuality is a deviation from God's design for mankind, and is therefore not a sign of natural created order, but is rooted, through Satan's inspiration and tempting, in the fallen nature and evil imagination of man. All those who have literally rejected the revelation of God, which exists: 1) not only within His written Holy Word, 2) but also, within the conscience inside all men, and 3) visibly, through the observation of nature - His creation, and have instead, chosen idolatry, through the worship of God's creation - whether, the object of worship is the earth, i.e. nature - via goddess worship, or to worship material things created by man, or the self-deification of man himself (Humanism), all or any of these rather than worshipping our Creator, is to be guilty of "rebellion against God's known will" - which is the definition of sin.Because God has revealed that Rebellion against Him is the root cause of Homosexuality and is the natural spiritual result of man's striving for "independence" from God, his Creator, we know that Homosexuality is not a condition that any human being is born into, nor is it primarily a physical condition. It is a spiritual condition. In the final analysis, it is a choice, or a series of choices and decisions that each individual has made. It is impossible to understand anything about homosexuality without first understanding this...

Again, some may disagree because it is obvious there is a lack of belief and knowledge of the bible... you may be educated with the teachings and the scientific evidence and human wisdom etc, but true wisdom is not present... because it only comes from God.

I have evidence. The bible. And at this i will stop. Because i know you will never take the time and actally read it. So farewell.


I agree... it is sad and as much as some may not like it... but I pity those who think otherwise.. its obviously pointless arguing this with some non-believers.. and it is also obvious they reject it because it does not accommodate them...

I agree!

I agree...it is sad and as much as some may not like it...but i pity those who think otherwise..its obviously pointless arguing this with some non-believers..and it is also obvious they reject it because it duz not accomodate them....


Well Put. :]

Xrayman... you could disagree with all I have to say and I expect that because you are trying to accommodate yourself and of course the bible didn't help... so you would by all means find everything to support your actions... but at the end of the day I guess we all have our own beliefs and faith... so good luck to you... in my next life if I had to do this again I would still not end up like you because I believe that there is a God and I have faith in him, therefore from reading his word I would find wisdom and understanding and strength to overcome the evil that is around... I am a TRUE believer in Jesus Christ and God our father.the only way I could end up like you is if I did not know God and believed in him..

Stoneweilder: - God condemn's sin... maybe I said it wrong... but homosexuality is sinful and if u disagree then its up to u... you probably wouldn't understand so as to reason with me, so it is pointless...

Once again, this is not a religious posting... so you bible pushers should take a step back.

Bottomline the answers to the post should be based on fact. Scientific evidence have PROVEN that there is some underlying genetic cause (possibly with linkage to enivornmental experience as well) to homosexuality... those are FACTS.

Your BELIEFS are not facts. The facts in your case are... yes a bible does exist, yes there was a man named Jesus, as far as the rest, it is all hersay. There are no proven FACTS about this Jesus guy and what he did in life. The facts are that he was a man who preached. That's it. Period. The rest of your argument is based on BELIEFS.

The FACTS on this matter speak for themselves.

At the end of the day whatever the causes are whether it be by environmental conditions etc but the fact here is that it is not natural.this is the point.. it is not natural.

I disagree.

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/teens/being-gay-choice-119834-3.html#post565701

Attention all Bible Thumpers. Not everyone is interested or accepts you and your Gods version of the world. If you care to address the original OP not once did he mention the word religion, god, sin, jesus or whatever else it is you fanatics love to preach.

This isn't the religion board. It is a teenager asking in the teens section. He doesn't appear to have any care about god or religion. Like many of us that you 'fanatics' refuse to accept. Take your preaching to the religion board. I will accept it there. That's the place for it!!

Address the OP!!

I believe, for the majority, it is NOT a choice.

But,

How come there are gay men who have children when they were / are marred to women?
Obviously , they were able to "function" in a hetereosexual capacity.

Also, some cultures deem being the "pitcher" normal, but the "catcher" gay. This I don't understand.

Also, homosexual sex in prison among otherwise heterosexual men? For the victim it is rape, but a willful act by the perpetrator; unless it is consensual.





Grace and Peace

As to facts on hiv / aids

HIV and AIDS --- United States, 1981--2000 (http://www.cdc.gov/MMWR/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5021a2.htm) :
Male-to-male sex has been the most common mode of exposure among persons reported with AIDS (46%), followed by injection drug use (25%) and heterosexual contact (11%). The incidence of AIDS increased rapidly in all three of these risk categories through the mid-1990s; however, since 1996, declines in new AIDS cases have been higher among MSM and injection drug users than among persons exposed through heterosexual contact (Figure 2).

If 10% of the population is gay and yet 46% of cases are due to male -male sex, then the incidence and risk for a homosexual male is several times the risk for a heterosexual male.

I could not find more recent data, and this is for the USA
In Africa, hiv is transmitted predominantly heterosexual in transmission.




Grace and Peace

I pity all of you who are dense enough to believe that the Bible can be used to answer scientific questions. It's sad that a book of fables can have such a devastating effect on (hopefully) otherwise normal people. The original question was not a question of faith or opinion, it was "Is being gay a choice" Simply put: NO! I don't understand how you can argue this with such clear data stating it's not a choice.

To macksmom: the existence of Jesus is actually becoming controversial because the timeline for his death and other historical events don't match up AND he doesn't appear in Roman works of history. Did he really exist? I don't know; however, I don't really think it matters given how Christians have manipulated his words.

To goldilox and fallen2grace: the reason the Bible is so against homosexual sex is because it was used as a weapon in antiguity. To intimidate others, Romans (though not exclusively) raped people. The invention that is Christianity was really pushed as a way to destroy the Roman Empire. They had a brutal culture that was very unfair to those not in the highest classes and everything Roman had to be deemed "sin" in order to change the culture. When you look at Christianity, it's really just a combination of various pagan religions and Judaism that was given to the masses as a legitimate religion. Take a good look at the advent of Christianity... you'll find that nothing adds up.

I don't really think we need religious fanatics telling us what is normal, natural, or healthy when they admittedly choose to disregard facts that don't agree with their warped world view.

Xrayman: I do enjoy Buddhist philosophy. I have many Thai friends (Thailand is a very Buddhist country) and it's amazing how well adjusted everyone seems to be. Maybe it's because the focus of Buddhist thought is self-improvement. They don't play the shame-game like western religions. You mind your own business and work to improve yourself, not judge others.

Comments on this post
goldilox : at the end of the day whatever the causes are whether it be by environmental conditions etc but the fact here is that it is not natural.this is the point..it is not natural.

No, the point is not weather you think it is "natural" or not... that goes right along with your bible theroies.

The QUESTION was weather it is a choice or not... period.

And the answer to that question is NO, base on scientific FACT... not theories from the bible.

And even though you choose to try and push the bible... you know it's not a choice, from your comment "whatever the causes are... "

Hmmmm...

Xrayman: I do enjoy Buddist philosophy. I have many Thai friends (Thailand is a very Buddist country) and it's amazing how well adjusted everyone seems to be. Maybe it's because the focus of Buddist thought is self-improvement. They don't play the shame-game like western religions. You mind your own business and work to improve yourself, not judge others.

I agree... I too practice Buddhism. It is a great and fullfilling philosophy :D

Right, work on improving ourselves, not judge others, don't mind others' business.
:)
Way to go!

Oh joy so in counting I have been called at least 5 things in this thred. To bad for you,Im proud of it. ^_______^

Once again. If you take the time to READ it, You would know there are plenty of Scientific fact. Like my CATHOLIC friend told me when I was telling her about this, You have to spend time actually studying it To know.

There was a time when with out thinking I would have said being gay is a choice, but I know better now. My son dated a lot of girls but he was a unhappy person. From the time he was about 13 it was like he went from a happy kid to a troubled, confused and sad teen. It wasn't until he was 16 that I realized what was making his life so miserable. He was gay and struggling with the thought of losing everyone he loved because of it. When I finally realized, dealt with and got the nerve, I asked him point blank if he was gay. He became a much happier person when he found that his friends and I think more so I, accepted and loved him anyway. He helped me realize how stupid I was to even think it is by choice. Saying he was gay could have made him lose his friends and be tormented from other kids at his school. I could have turned my back on him and kicked him out. We live in the south and although there are a lot of younger people who are opened minded enough to accept it, there are still [B]many[/B who would rather try beating the gay out of him. Why would anyone choose to deal with all that? Answer is...no one would. As for me I would much rather see my child happy and gay than the miserable “straight” person he tried to be and who wanted to kill himself because he was gay. Being gay is by no means a choice and frankly it pisses me off to hear people say it is a choice. Even worse is when you try to make them understand the reasons a person would not chose to be gay and they still insist that it is a choice. A guy at work said if his son told him he was gay he would disown him. I told him, “You don’t really love your son then do you.” His reply was, “yes but…. “ I stopped him there and said,” Love has no buts…you either love him or you don’t. I firmly believe that!

First, no God fearing person would hate another person and especially their own children. As to beating the homosexuality out of any person, no God fearing person would even think of harming another person, gay or straight. It is against God's laws. I believe we are to love all people no matter what their sexuality or lifestyle is. For example:
I love a thief, but must I love the act of stealing he/she does? NO
I love those who hate me but does that mean I must love being hated? No
I love the homosexual person, but must I condone and love their sexual actions? No

Not one of us have the right to harass or beat or treat homosexual men and women badly. We though at the same time do not have to agree or except their behavior as normal or as something they are born with. Why then must they try to push their behavior as exceptable when a higher power, some call God, tells us, it is a sin and it is wrong?

If they are homosexual and they feel they are born that way, then they have free will, let them do their thing and leave the rest of us do our thing. Why do homosexuals feel they must push their behavior on the rest of society they know do not except such behavior? They are teachers and yet many do not leave their sexuality at home where it belongs. They bring it in schools where young children are taught it is okay to be gay. Why do they do that, when parents spend their time teaching their child it is wrong. Doesn't the parent have the right to teach their child God's laws as they understand it? What right does homosexuals have to undo the teachings that parents spend years teaching their children? They don't, but they push and shove homosexuality down the throats of those who do not wish to axcept it nor condone it. Not even straight people have the right to teach sex in the schools. It is a God given right t PARENTS NOT TEACHERS OR SCHOOLS RESPONSIBITY! Maybe if parents are allowed to take that responsibility back then we would not have half the problems we have with sexual behavior as we see today in society.

I believe that if a person is a homosexual, and even if they feel they were born that way, why and what right do they have to mess with my children's mind with television programs , computers, books, movies, magazines and even in the schools, that try to teach my child that it's okay? They are not the child's parent and therefore if a homosexual wishes to practice this sexual behavior, then they should keep it in their homes. Why must they bring their behavior into the schools and think and feel they have a right to teach other peoples children that homosexuality is okay? It is not their right nor are those they teach, their children. They not only teach it, but try to force others to condone it. Why should they condone it if they choice not to? If the homosexual person feels they have rights, then why not give those who are not homosexuals that same right?

I think this leader said it all when he made this statement: "When your country and mine shall get together on the teachings laid down by Christ in this Sermon on the Mount, we shall have solved the problems not only of our countries but those of the whole world.”—Gandhi, to Lord Irwin, former viceroy to India

Yes, I agree that when we all return to the simple teaching of Christ, then and only then will all contraversal issues such as homosexuality and all other issues be settled once and for all. Until then we will have those who try to dictate to us what we should and should not axcept and we do not have that right. Only God does. Some have left the teaching of Christ and some reject those teachings, but I feel as Mr. Gandhi did, until we all turn to God and follow his Son's teachings, their will always be contraversal matters, caused by the battle for prestige and power and who ever becomes the strongest at any particular time, the rest must follow. I personally choice to follow Christ and his teachings. Unitil such time when we must all stand before our maker, I and my family will do what we discern is right and you who want to condone and axcept homosexuality in society, by all means do your thing. I can't stop you and it is not my job or anyone else's. It will though be God's right to judge for himself who is right and who is wrong on this issue. Until then, why not leave sexual behavior at home where it belongs? If homosexuality is so natural and so many condone it, why make such an issue of axceptence? Why should the matter of sexual behavior be a public issue when it is an intimate feeling or relationship between you and the one you love? Why must it be flaunted in the face of those who do not condone it and feel it is a sin?

I truly believe, that those who are straight or homosexuals should keep sexual matters private. Another words, you do your thing, and allow me to do my thing. I don't force my sexual preverence on you, (unless on forums such as this, where one gives their personal view on any said issues) then please don't shove yours down my throat or teach my children what I feel is not your right to teach them. I know some will say that they hear about straight people all the time. Yes, but that does not make that right either. I do not condone such behavior, however, you do have the freedom to decide what is right for you and yours. At the same time though, that same freedom is mine and I will choose for myself and mine what I understand to be correct. If you want freedom of behavior then allow others the same freedom. Why try to convice others to believe what they feel is wrong?

Maybe what people object to the most about homosexual behavior is the fact that
they want others to axcept and condone and tell them it is okay. If you were truly born that way, why does homosexuals need axceptence? I was born with CP and if someone doen't axcept me as I am, I move on to those that do. I do not force others to welcome me or approve of me with my Cerebral palsy if they don't want to. I also do not make me being condoned or loved, a public issue.

In conclusion, we all live in this world. We all have diffferent moral beliefs and practices. When it comes to sexual habits, either straight or gay, it is a personal matter and should remain personal and kept in the home. There is no need for sex in the movies and on television or in public places. Sex is bueatiful when practiced the way it was intended, people have degraded it by making it a public issue and imposing their preverences on others. We all must make our own choices and life with them but we do not have the right to impose our choice on others, especially when it comes to personal matters. I believe it is a sin to practice homsexuality, some believe it is not and it is natural. Fine then, you do your thing and allow me to do mine. Why make it a public issue? Keep it in the home where it belongs and give others the right to decide for themselves what is good for them and what is bad. As for me and my household, we must obey God as ruler on all matters, before man ideas or thoughts of what is right.

Take Care,
Hope12

Comments on this post
goldilox : at the end of the day whatever the causes are whether it be by environmental conditions etc but the fact here is that it is not natural.this is the point..it is not natural.

No, the point is not weather you think it is "natural" or not...that goes right along with your bible theroies.

The QUESTION was weather it is a choice or not....period.

And the answer to that question is NO, base on scientific FACT...not theories from the bible.

And even though you choose to try and push the bible....you know it's not a choice, from your comment "whatever the causes are...."

hmmmm...

If it's a choice or not it has not been proven scietifically, even though you would like to say it is. For every Scientific information you wish to give as proof, those who believe it is a choice can give Scientific proof that there is no proof. It is a therory not proof. Please do more research.

Science when it comes to homosexuality is working on therories, that are not facts. You though are giving them as facts. It's not even a matter of pushing the Bible or not, it is a personal matter and should be practiced as such for those who choose that behavior for themselves.

You state that there are those " who choose to try and push the Bible", yet is that not what those who are homosexuals trying to do to those who do not condone such behavior?
Are those who condone homosexuality not trying to push homsexuality down the throats of those who do not condone it? If it is so natural and normal, why do they need people to condone their behavior or actions? If they were born with it, then why don't all people condone it? Why does such behavior sicken others? It's not just those that believe in the Bible, even some who do not even believe in God, are objective to such behavior. If it is natural and normal, why do they need hormones and surgeries to make them into the opposite sex?

Sometimes as a society we have an ability to make whatever we choose to be condoned even if it repules others, just to be popular with others or to be axcepted in society. Two wrongs do not make a right. If someone is gay then they need to stop trying to force others to axcept their behavior. Why do they need to flaunt the sexual behavior? Why does anyone need to even know what the other persons sexual preferences are? It is a personal matter and should not be forced on the part of society that does not wish to condone it. Homosexuals claim to have rights, so does the people in society who do not wish to condone or axcept such behavior as normal. Especially since Science as not proven anything as fact. All the information you have printed so far is not fact, but therories. Do your research not just on the side of homosexuality but on the other side of the issue also. Then you can see all the Scientific information is therory not facts.

Take care,
Hope12

Very detailed. I loved it.

Hope, you really need to think about what you're saying. There is scientific evidence proving sex-linked heritibility in regards to sexual orientation. You "believers" offer answers from a book written thousands of years ago before what we now call homosexuality was even conceived. Based on what you've said, I don't think you should be talking about science in any respect. You demand more information when more is not needed. You know, plate tectonics is just a theory, too, but there is a huge amount of evidence suggesting it is fact.

Also, you mentioned that "god fearing" people don't harm others. What would you call the Crusades, the Inquisition, or the Holocaust? Christians either pursued or approved of all three. What about the 9/11 terrorist attacks? Were they not performed by religious zealots? If you think that the hands of the religious are clean of blood, I doubt your intelligence.

Moving on to your thoughts about education, you really need to think critically about this, not just listen to your church leaders and spew what they have to say. There is no reason to believe that homosexuality is harmful. Every credible psychological, psychiatric and medical organization in America will tell you that. You anti-gay cretins rely on correlational studies to "prove" that homosexuality is harmful, but the first thing you learn in research is "correlation DOES NOT equal causation." Using just correlations, you can say that religion causes murder and conservative politics causes lowered intelligence (the number of churches in a city positively correlates with the murder rate/1000 and conservative thought negatively correlates with intelligence scores). Why should something that is okay not be taught as being okay? By all means, send your kids to private schools or home-school them if you want them to be lied to.

We are not pushing our values on you, we are asking you to quit pushing your values on us. Your god has no place in my life. I don't really care if you think it is wrong, it's a free country, but, once again, you don't have good reason to ask that gays and lesbians refrain from having sex with or marrying the ones they love. Nor do you have sufficient reason to ask that it not be taught as a healthy, normal variation of the human condition. To answer your question about about why people don't condone homosexuality if we are born either homosexual or heterosexual: ignorance! You and your cohorts are so blinded by your pathetic beliefs that you cannot see facts when they are presented. You want evidence, we give you evidence, and then you say the Bible disagrees so we must be wrong. How can you not see how foolish that is?

People like you make me sick.

Hope, you really need to think about what you're saying. There is scientific evidence proving sex-linked heritibility in regards to sexual orientation. You "believers" offer answers from a book written thousands of years ago before what we now call homosexuality was even conceived. Based on what you've said, I don't think you should be talking about science in any respect. You demand more information when more is not needed. You know, plate tectonics is just a theory, too, but there is a huge amount of evidence suggesting it is fact.

Also, you mentioned that "god fearing" people don't harm others. What would you call the Crusades, the Inquisition, or the Holocaust? Christians either pursued or approved of all three. What about the 9/11 terrorist attacks? Were they not performed by religious zealots? If you think that the hands of the religious are clean of blood, I doubt your intelligence.

Moving on to your thoughts about education, you really need to think critically about this, not just listen to your church leaders and spew what they have to say. There is no reason to believe that homosexuality is harmful. Every credible psychological, psychiatric and medical organization in America will tell you that. You anti-gay cretins rely on correlational studies to "prove" that homosexuality is harmful, but the first thing you learn in research is "correlation DOES NOT equal causation." Using just correlations, you can say that religion causes murder and conservative politics causes lowered intelligence (the number of churches in a city positively correlates with the murder rate/1000 and conservative thought negatively correlates with intelligence scores). Why should something that is okay not be taught as being okay? By all means, send your kids to private schools or home-school them if you want them to be lied to.

We are not pushing our values on you, we are asking you to quit pushing your values on us. Your god has no place in my life. I don't really care if you think it is wrong, it's a free country, but, once again, you don't have good reason to ask that gays and lesbians refrain from having sex with or marrying the ones they love. Nor do you have sufficient reason to ask that it not be taught as a healthy, normal variation of the human condition. To answer your question about about why people don't condone homosexuality if we are born either homosexual or heterosexual: ignorance! You and your cohorts are so blinded by your pathetic beliefs that you cannot see facts when they are presented. You want evidence, we give you evidence, and then you say the Bible disagrees so we must be wrong. How can you not see how foolish that is?

People like you make me sick.

6,7,8.. More things I am called. Along with 2 other people. And yet we have called you nothing.

Unbelivable, I do agree with you on the God-Fearing people thing. But other then that. I disagree. Lets see.. Ah here::


You "believers" offer answers from a book written thousands of years ago before what we now call homosexuality was even conceived.

I can find plenty of verses that clearly explain about Homosexuality. So get your facts straight.



We are not pushing our values on you
That's not true. It goes both ways. I will admit that. And its too bad that you cant. Its human nature to Judge,Lable,and push values on others.


You want evidence, we give you evidence.
Yeah and guess what? You want evidence too! And guess what? We give it to you! "Your so blinded" by YOUR belifes that you can't see what we are giving you.

Umm... what did I call hope? I said I would doubt her intelligence if she believed that religious people we innocent.

When the Bible was written, "gay" did not exist. There was homosexual sex, but it was not thought of as it is today. There was consentual sex, which was common in Roman society (the arch-rival of the Jews and early Christian). Christians and Jews tried to demonize all that was Roman (how can you mobilize a segment of people against such a powerful force if it is not for religious purposes?) There was homosexual rape, too, and I think it's evident why the Jews and Christians would be against that... even a lot of Romans disapproved of rape. I think if it was understood in a loving context (which it is today) there would not have been a campaign against it. So, low and behold, I do have my facts straight. The Bible must be studied with a sense of the culture for which it was written.

How is me asking you to stay the heck out of my life and keep your beliefs to yourself pushing my beliefs down your throat? Like I said before, if you want your children to be lied to, home-school them or put them in private schools. Also, entertainment up to the free market. If shows like Will & Grace bother you, it's more than the queer community that you should be mad at. After all, we only make up 3-10% of the population.

You are not providing any evidence of anything. The original question was "Is being gay a choice?" and you respond with "God says they're bad." Where is the evidence there? There isn't even evidence that God exists, let alone that s/he would really care (I don't think Jesus says a single word about gay sex in any of the Gospels). Because the Bible isn't a work of science, it is not appropriate to bring it to a (what should be) scientific conversation. If you asked "What is the meaning of the story of Sodom & Ghomorrah?" would it be appropriate for me to respond "Archeologists have discovered sites south-east of the Dead Sea that may be the Biblical cities. There are vast sulfur deposits in the hills nearby, which could have exploded in an electrical storm or earthquake and rained down on the city, causing the cities' destruction."? Sure, it's marginally related in topic, but it's irrelevant to the conversation.

I am not blind, I was raised in a Christian home and couldn't stand the hypocrisy and lying any more. I would love to believe in God, it's a comforting concept; however, the evidence doesn't back it and I can't believe in something that is so obviously fabricated. If you really look at the history of the creation of the Christian faith, it's apparent that it is a patchwork of pagan religions that was used to unite Roman commoners against Roman leaders.

I never responded with "God says it's bad" I believe my exact words were "You arnt born gay its a choice" And I don't see the word God in there anywhere.

Im done arguing with you. You have your opinion. And I have mine.
There is no point in trying anymore.

You have repeatedly stated that you think God is against homosexuality and therefore it must be a choice. This is not a difference of opinion, it is a refusal, on your part, to accept scientific evidence.

Hope, you really need to think about what you're saying. There is scientific evidence proving sex-linked heritibility in regards to sexual orientation. You "believers" offer answers from a book written thousands of years ago before what we now call homosexuality was even conceived. Based on what you've said, I don't think you should be talking about science in any respect. You demand more information when more is not needed. You know, plate tectonics is just a theory, too, but there is a huge amount of evidence suggesting it is fact.

Also, you mentioned that "god fearing" people don't harm others. What would you call the Crusades, the Inquisition, or the Holocaust? Christians either pursued or approved of all three. What about the 9/11 terrorist attacks? Were they not performed by religious zealots? If you think that the hands of the religious are clean of blood, I doubt your intelligence.

Moving on to your thoughts about education, you really need to think critically about this, not just listen to your church leaders and spew what they have to say. There is no reason to believe that homosexuality is harmful. Every credible psychological, psychiatric and medical organization in America will tell you that. You anti-gay cretins rely on correlational studies to "prove" that homosexuality is harmful, but the first thing you learn in research is "correlation DOES NOT equal causation." Using just correlations, you can say that religion causes murder and conservative politics causes lowered intelligence (the number of churches in a city positively correlates with the murder rate/1000 and conservative thought negatively correlates with intelligence scores). Why should something that is okay not be taught as being okay? By all means, send your kids to private schools or home-school them if you want them to be lied to.

We are not pushing our values on you, we are asking you to quit pushing your values on us. Your god has no place in my life. I don't really care if you think it is wrong, it's a free country, but, once again, you don't have good reason to ask that gays and lesbians refrain from having sex with or marrying the ones they love. Nor do you have sufficient reason to ask that it not be taught as a healthy, normal variation of the human condition. To answer your question about about why people don't condone homosexuality if we are born either homosexual or heterosexual: ignorance! You and your cohorts are so blinded by your pathetic beliefs that you cannot see facts when they are presented. You want evidence, we give you evidence, and then you say the Bible disagrees so we must be wrong. How can you not see how foolish that is?

People like you make me sick.

I am so sorry, my purpose is not to make anyone sick! I am making a statement that is not my personal laws but God's laws. God tells us homosexuality is a sin. Psycologist and other doctors are human as you and I are, we all make mistakes, God does not.

I and those of my religion do not go to war or join in on as you have stated, I quote you:
"Crusades, the Inquisition, or the Holocaust? Christians either pursued or approved of all three. What about the 9/11 terrorist attacks? Were they not performed by religious zealots? If you think that the hands of the religious are clean of blood, I doubt your intelligence."

As a true christian, I do not approve nor would I or anyone in the religion I belong to touch or be involved in anything such as a Crusade or inquistion or holocaust. As to 9/11 that was not any God fearing persons that did such a horrific action. There are those in this world who truly God fearing and if you research this matter you will see that TRUE CHRISTIANS AND THOSE WHO FEAR GOD, do not go to war or join in any political or any kind of actions that would bring harm to another. Remember there are those who claim to be Christians, and they are not true chritians but are referred to as Christendom, because they pretend to serve God but they are proved liars by their actions. These are the ones and the religions that go to war and join in Crusades and inquistions and hurt and kill others.

I do not ask you to do anything. God does though and if you choose not to listen to God's laws, that is your choice. I do not wish to judge you, my only purpose is to inform others of God's laws. If you or anyone else does not choose to obey the creator then so be it. I leave you in peace and there will be no more communication between you and I. I am not here to debate with you or anyone else, but to make sure you know God's law that homosexuality is a sin. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10) 9 What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom..  . .

At least you can never say to "God, your creator, you didn't know or no one ever told you.
Have a good day and like I stated, I will not debate this issue with you any further. As to intellegence, you think I am not and that is your right, but this is not about intellegence but obedience to the God of the universe. Time will prove intellegence but most of all our obedience to our Creator.

Take care,
Hope12

I am not here to debate with you or anyone else, but to make sure you know God's law that homosexuality is a sin. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10) 9 What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom.. . .


Hmmmm... "nor men who lie with men"... well then I guess lesbians are okay then? Women homosexuals are approved by your god?

Just one of the million things wrong in your bible, and thinking.

It has a deeper meaning. Its not THAT Literal.

Okay so I'm really tired of this topic.



You have repeatedly stated that you think God is against homosexuality and therefore it must be a choice. This is not a difference of opinion, it is a refusal, on your part, to accept scientific evidence

Are you so dense that you wouldn't realize that God wouldn't be apart of a topic like this? So get over it.

You keep talking about pagan. Do you even know what that means?

It's a person who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim.

So why do you say "patchwork of pagan religions"?

And last but not least, Why is OK to talk about gay people,sex and drugs but then when someone talks about Jesus everybody gets on their case? Is the world that messed us? I guess it is.But you know I don't see how that's even right. I may be a "Fanatic" "Bible pusher/thumper" I may even be crazy. But Im proud of it. But one day you will have to stand before God and explain yourself. Until then I don't care what you do Americangayboy. All I know is that I tried to get through to you. And you are too closed minded to understand.

To everyone else that tries to get through to him:: GOOD LUCK!
Bye.

"Pagan" depends on your definition; sometimes it means non-JudeoChistians, sometimes it means a specific set of polytheistic religions based on nature. Christianity is based on various myths that are pagan in origin. This is why I say "a patchwork of pagan religions."

Because there is no evidence of the existence of any god, I don't think god is relevant to this or almost any other topic. Are you really so dense to think that god exists when there is no evidence for that belief? I DON'T CARE WHAT YOUR MAKE-BELIEVE Deities HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THIS TOPIC WHEN THERE IS AMPLE EVIDENCE THAT SEXUAL PREFERENCE IS NOT A CHOICE!!

The reason it is okay to talk about sex and drugs is because they are real and there is evidence suggesting their morality or lack there of. The belief in the existence of a god has as much supporting evidence as the belief that unicorns exist.

If you don't care what I do, good! Shut your hateful mouth and leave me and my friends alone. I pity you for thinking you have a divine purpose. You're wasting your time on a lie.

For someone who is done debating this topic, you sure have a lot to say.

Hope, the Crusades, the Inquisition and the 9/11/01 terrorist attacks were committed by deeply religious people. The Holocaust was approved of by Christians world-wide. I have lost what little respect I had for you. Your refusal to accept facts is sad and gross.

Also, your religious beliefs have no factual basis. I have no obligation to respect a group of people who hate others based on a fictitcious book nor do I have any guilt for not believing your sham of a religion.

I know this is overkill, but I had to respond to fallen's rating of macksmom. If not all of the Bible is literal, how can you say that any of it is literal? Could it be that your religious text is just a book of fables; some right and some wrong?

I know this is overkill, but I had to respond to fallen's rating of macksmom. If not all of the Bible is literal, how can you say that any of it is literal? Could it be that your religious text is just a book of fables; some right and some wrong?

My point exactly... she says it has deeper meaning? But on who's terms? Some peoples "meaning" varies from others... so who's "deeper meaning" understanding of the bible is right?

If not all of it is literal, then none of it is... as we have been trying to say all along.

I took the word Pagan from the dictionary.
I don't give a crap what you say.

There's more to the definition of a word than what's in a dictionary. The English language is nuanced and dynamic.

I'm glad you don't give a crap about what I say; however, I doubt it's true. If you truly didn't care, you wouldn't be responding. Didn't you say you were done with this conversation several posts ago?

Have we debunked all of your assertions or are you going to come back for more? I'll gladly continue talking to you.

Why do you guys insist on preaching on a teen board? I don't get it. You guys don't preach on the Theft Under 5000 posts. They are committing sin in your eyes. Admit it. You guys are offended by gays. Homophobic! That's what you are. You'll trot out the old I don't hate the person I hate the sin... Hahahaha. Forgive me as I wipe the spit off my screen from laughing so hard. That's what you guys do. You turn religion into a laughing matter when you carry on like this!

I took the word Pagan from the dictionary.
I dont give a crap what you say.

Swearing like that is very ungodly!

No nerdy, I am NOT a homophobic. I aint afraid of them.Only for the kids and gullible teens they try it on.
Go back to school or get a dictionary and learn the definition of the word.So, because I prefer to eat p**sy, rather than gobble d**ck ,does that make me a lesbian, clown??:D hahahaha! your a cracker nerdykarman! All homo got nuts loose in there head.It's been proven by top scientists,there's a flaw in their DNA. Are you a Homo need Karma?

You are ignorant on the issue at hand obviously. Only such a person would still be assuming all homosexuls prey on kids and teens... those are pedophiles. Let's get the facts straight here. You obviously have no clue as to what you are answering... you are asking if liking women instead of men make you a lesbian, well if you had any knowledge as to what you are addressing here, you would know the answer to that.

You are contradicting yourself when you first say being homosexual is a choice, and trying to back that opinion up by saying there is scientific proof that there is a genetic difference in their DNA.

Hmmmm... well I haven't yet met anyone that has a genetic condition that has been able to choose how that genetic makeup effects them.

HJWakelin; please stop with your rant you site all the "spirtual" texts and refer to God and Satan; but what you doing is spitting out hatred... if you are truly a follower of Christ (Christian) then you need to look up grace and mercy in the dictionary or better yet the Bible...

I think you should take a serious look at how you handle yourself and how you portray yourself... because right now your ignorance and lack of compassion is beaming nice and bright for all to see!!

OK this thread has run it's course.
Question Closed !

I didn't know animals could be gay that's awsome