LiveLeak.com - God bless atheism (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=74c_1186155251&p=1)

He explains it very well and I agree with him. What do you think?

"I like the hours, they suit me quite well."

HA! :)

Shame he didn't point out the religious organizations who provide aide to third world nations ONLY if the people convert...

Well... why wouldn't an atheist indulge in any desire that floods their mind? I mean, everyone has to die, right? So why not have sex with whomever you want and do all the drugs you want and disect living creatures for your own sick pleasure?
If there is no GOD there is no ultimate consequence. But that's only step one, understanding there is a god.
The more major steps, like acknowledging that Jesus Christ is the true one... those come later

I liked it, except for his lumping together astrology with theology. I think atheists are usually better at astrology than religious folks are, because they're more comfortable with the cyclical nature of life and other temporal processes. The belief that eternity is more important than time creates almost insurmountable obstacles to a full appreciation of the value of living through time and in space. Understanding and finding meaning in this life in this body in this place at this time is what astrology is all about, as I see it. Personally, I don't necessarily have a problem with eternity, so long as it's something more than just an indefinite prolonging of time at some other location (i.e. heaven) within this same space. That kind of eternity is not the least bit interesting or plausible to me.

Well.... why wouldnt an athiest indulge in any desire that floods their mind? I mean, everyone has to die, right? So why not have sex with whomever you want and do all the drugs you want and disect living creatures for your own sick pleasure?
If there is no GOD there is no ultimate consequence.
Well, there are plenty of practical temporal consequences that are unpleasant enough to make it easy for any sensible person see the folly of such behavior. Besides, even being threatened with eternal torment doesn't seem to dissuade everybody who claims to believe in it from doing stupid self-destructive things.

Well.... why wouldnt an athiest indulge in any desire that floods their mind? I mean, everyone has to die, right? So why not have sex with whomever you want and do all the drugs you want and disect living creatures for your own sick pleasure?
If there is no GOD there is no ultimate consequence. But thats only step one, understanding there is a god.
The more major steps, like acknowledging that Jesus Christ is the true one... those come later

Is your belief in god what keeps you from torturing small animals and murdering your next door neighbor? If I could prove to you beyond a shadow of a doubt there was no god, would you cheat on your spouse because you "felt like it"? Being an atheist doesn't mean one has no morals.

A atheist does not believe there is a god, so in that no reason for eternity, just this life. The only thing that keeps them from killing the neighbor next door would be the fear of prison. And of course they would cheat with anyone they wanted, ( most do today, which is good proof that without moral values people go to very animal like values)

So wrong Fr_Chuck. Most of the cheaters in marriages were married in churches, believers in God. We come back to the same issue - is the only reason you do not kill your neighbour or sleep with his wife because the book tells you so? You have no other sense of right and wrong? Atheists are the same as you only they live this life, not for the promise of something better after they die. Did you even watch the whole video?

A atheist does not believe there is a god, so in that no reason for eternity, just this life. The only thing that keeps them from killing the neighbor next door would be the fear of prison. And of course they would cheat with anyone they wanted, ( most do today, which is good proof that without moral values people go to very animal like values)

Actually what keeps me from killing people is the fact that it ruins society and offers no benefits. Oh, that and it's wrong. I can honestly say I wouldn't kill someone if I was promised immunity from prison and was told no one would ever think less of me for it. Even with those "promises" attached, I couldn't look at myself in the mirror every morning. I don't sleep with men other than my husband because I love and respect him. I also love and respect myself and see no reason to behave like a floozie, because it doesn't make me a better person. Not to mention if I sleep with someone else's husband it would ruin there marriage, and I'd feel terrible about doing that.

Wow! Look at that! A godless heathen with morals! Whodathunkit?

The only thing that keeps them from killing the neighbor next door would be the fear of prison. And of course they would cheat with anyone they wanted
Your comment speaks volumes about why you behave the way you do, but says nothing at all about why atheists behave the way they do.

If morality is mainly about why we behave as we do, the person who refrains from murder because he loves his neighbor, and from adultery because he loves his wife is following a higher standard of morality than the person who, in spite of being hateful and lustful, refrains from murder and adultery out of a fear of punishment, whether temporal or eternal. Do you think that atheists are incapable of acting out of love?

Personally I find it terrifying that the only thing keeping (some) Christians from going on a murdering spree is the fear of god/hell. I mean, what happens if you lose your faith? Scary, scary, scary.

"Choux disagrees: I reported you for your disgusting lies about atheists. It has been my vast experience on Q&A Sites that Christians are prolific liars. Sad but true,"

You're absolutely right. Christians lie and steal and murder, They have sex with animals and children and abuse and neglect and hate and fornicate and take other peoples spouses... and so much more.
Because Christians are human.

But what the world does not understand is that the God of Jacob- Jesus Christ- Doesn't remember that about his children anymore because we called on Him and by His grace we are saved.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

Psalm 103:12
As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Jeremiah 31:34
For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

(https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/../members/fr_chuck.html)Fr_Chuck (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/../members/fr_chuck.html) agrees: This is very true, without a god they have no reason for moral value beyond self pleasure

Hey fella, I'm married, have two great kids, a great family, great friends and neighbours. Never have I cheated on my wife, stole from anyone, engaged in lewd acts, etc. How on earth do you explain that?? Same can be sad for any atheist/agnostic I know.

How deluded are you to think that we need a god or a book to tell us what's right and wrong, or how to love our fellow man? One thing I certainly don't miss is the constant bickering amongst christians in every single christianity thread on this board. Also how is a 50% divorce rate helping your argument?

I don't know about the rest of you godless heathens, but I spend my days going to unholy places like the grocery store and the bank. I also read sacrilegious textbooks on subjects like statistics and business. By the end of the day I'm so exhausted from pushing Christians and other religious folk in the mud that I collapse in my heathen bed next to my heathen husband. Later my godless killing machine cat falls asleep by my side while my godless dog snores the night away. Whole lot of sinnin' goin' on in my house!

I liked it, except for his lumping together astrology with theology. I think atheists are usually better at astrology than religious folks are, because they're more comfortable with the cyclical nature of life and other temporal processes.

I think that most atheists and most religious people would agree that astrology is pure bunk. There may be a minor set of both who are into astrology, but I doubt that more than a few percent who do anything more than skim the silly astrology column in the paper for some amusement. Like reading fortune cookies - no harm in that, as long as you don't take it too seriously.

I think that most atheists and most religious people would agree that astrology is pure bunk..
I'm sure you're right, and if the only information or knowledge I had about astrology was the daily newspaper horoscope, I'd think exactly the same thing. Newspaper horoscopes are to real astrology as TV evangelists are to real religion, or as creation science is to real science--intended to titillate and reinforce the preconceptions of the gullible, but having no substance. But the existence of counterfeits doesn't mean that the genuine article doesn't exist.

LiveLeak.com - God bless atheism (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=74c_1186155251&p=1)

He explains it very well and I agree with him. What do you think?


I think this gentleman if very misguided and lost. I am truly sad that he has had such a negative encounter with religion, or God, or Christians that now he is truly devoid of faith. We are ALL sinners and do so everyday in many different ways. We will also ALL be judged when we die. Jesus Christ will return and judge the living from the dead. Those that believe in Him and confess their SINS will live with Him in eternity and well the rest will be separate from Him forever. I believe those to be the facts. The TRUTH is what we all seek and Jesus is the only one that speaks the TRUTH. I don't dispute that most athethists are good people just like most Christians are good people but it takes more than being a good person. If a person turns his back on what God says and chooses to follow their own guidelines or ideas than they will be held accountable for that decision in the end. I, as a Christian, just want to make sure everyone has a fair shake at making their own decision and making sure they know what the TRUTH is... Jesus the son of God died to save us and if we believe in Him we will not perish but have ever lasting life... WOW what a promise.

mountain_man,

You're a sinner, I'm not. I make mistakes now and then but I learn from them. The TRUTH is a made up term by you guys, it means nothing to us. The author of the video is neither misguided nor is he worried about what happens after death - it's this life that counts.

Then help me out... What is a sin? And What is the purpose of this life?

I think this gentleman if very misguided and lost. I am truly sad that he has had such a negative encounter with religion, or God, or Christians that now he is truly devoid of faith.It's belief in God that he's devoid of, not faith. And it's quite presumptious of you to assume that his lack of belief is due to some negative encounter with religion.


We will also ALL be judged when we die. Jesus Christ will return and judge the living from the dead. Those that believe in Him and confess their SINS will live with Him in eternity and well the rest will be separate from Him forever. I believe those to be the facts.Well, they aren't facts, they're predictions. Even if they turn out to be accurate predictions, they won't become facts until the future unfolds.


The TRUTH is what we all seek and Jesus is the only one that speaks the TRUTH. Is that a fact?


I don't dispute that most athethists are good people just like most Christians are good people but it takes more than being a good person. If a person turns his back on what God says and chooses to follow their own guidelines or ideas than they will be held accountable for that decision in the end. I, as a Christian, just want to make sure everyone has a fair shake at making their own decision and making sure they know what the TRUTH is... Jesus the son of God died to save us and if we believe in Him we will not perish but have ever lasting life... WOW what a promise.So, once again, religion is all about predicting the future. If I really thought that, I wouldn't be interested. I think it's all about the present, and I have enough faith to let the future take care of itself.

Then help me out...What is a sin? and What is the purpose of this life?A sin is a perception held by a person who believes in a God that can banish them to eternal hell.

The purpose of life? It's different for each individual. In my case it's raising my kids to be good people, enjoying my life with my family and friends, helping out others when I can, having a good work ethic, etc. It certainly does not involve devoting my life to worshipping an unseen being.

A sin is a perception held by a person who believes in a God that can banish them to eternal hell.

The purpose of life? It's different for each individual. In my case it's raising my kids to be good people, enjoying my life with my family and friends, helping out others when I can, having a good work ethic, etc. It certainly does not involve devoting my life to worshipping an unseen being.

What if there is a Hell? And What if God really does exist and loves YOU and wants more for you than what is in this life? Wouldn't you want to be a part of that...

Sorry mate, if the bible is supposed to be proof then it doesn't add up for me. I'm a good guy so if there is a hell I'm not going there.

"wants more for you"? That means nothing to me, what does it mean to you?

Sorry mate, if the bible is supposed to be proof then it doesn't add up for me. I'm a good guy so if there is a hell I'm not going there.

"wants more for you"? That means nothing to me, what does it mean to you?

How doesn't the Bible add up for you? I am sure you are a good guy but as far as the bible and my beliefs that isn't enough. I was a good guy before I new God but very misguided and confused but knowing Him changed EVERYTHING. He (God) wants more for all of us in this world and in eternity with him... we are all created/born with a spiritual gap or hole within us that needs to be filled; you can't deny you have felt that and some people fill it with other things besides God... but when you fill that void with God than you will truly experience more blessings and see things differently... I can't logically explain it but to believe in Jesus is not logical it is based on FAITH...

On a different note: If you are an athesist, why did you become one?

See that's the thing: a) I never felt misguided and confused and b) yes I can deny the fact that all are born with a spiritual gap because it isn't a fact.

If you need religion to keep you on the straight and narrow then good for you. I don't require such a thing.

The only reason I haven't killed my neighbors is because of the ten commandments and prison. Prison is the least of my worries. I really thank about the religious aspect of my actions more. Although I think organized religion, in many cases, is a load of stinky poo.
My neighbors truly are the most unGODLY people on the planet. It's a regular Sodom and Gomorrah over there. They could sure use some sort of guiding light in their lives. Life without a higher power really doesn't work out in the long run.
I think the guy in the video makes a good argument about religious dogma and all but, taken on a personal level, one does not let that sort of thing affect them. Because some people in some churches are crooks or adulterous is no reason for me abandon GOD. That ain't GOD's fault.
I connect with GOD from inside myself in prayer and meditation. HE speaks to me, He guides me and helps me. Some people just think that small voice is their own mind and some never listen at all.
I can't show anyone that any more than Jim Baker or Jimmy Swaggart can. I can't prove it to anyone and that is the way GOD likes it. You got to go get for yourself. You got to want it and if you don't, GOD won't bug you. Free will. It is my personal thing. I do know GOD exists though and I know GOD is good. I hope the guy in the video finds HIM. Soon. He ain't no spring chicken and time is running out in more ways than one!

The only reason I haven't killed my neighbors is because of the ten commandments and prison. Prison is the least of my worries.

I'll say it again; that is simply terrifying. I truly hope you never lose your faith because if you do, you will probably become a horrible, horrible person.


Life without a higher power really doesn't work out in the long run.

Why not?

See that's the thing: a) I never felt misguided and confused and b) yes I can deny the fact that all are born with a spiritual gap because it isn't a fact.

If you need religion to keep you on the straight and narrow then good for you. I don't require such a thing.


It is sad that you have put yourself above God in every area... that unfortunately will produce great consequences, most eternal! I do pray that sometime you will be able to hear the Good News of Jesus our Savior and remember that He truly loves you.

Weird, I don't put you down because of your choice but you choose to view me as a person in trouble because of my choice. That would be one of those annoying superiority-complex features of organized religion.

"Fr_Chuck agrees: This is very true, without a god they have no reason for moral value beyond self pleasure"

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Who gets self pleasure? As an atheist, we answer to no one but ourselves. So when we do something good for someone, it is out of pure compassion and caring. We know that no one is watching us and putting a smiley face next to our name is some holy book at the gates of heaven. Unless we believe in karma, we know that we may not even see a repayment for our compassion. And that's fine with us. As for a Christian, that is where the self pleasure is involved, "Be nice to people or you will go to hell!"

Weird, I don't put you down because of your choice but you choose to view me as a person in trouble because of my choice. That would be one of those annoying superiority-complex features of organized religion.

You are a person in trouble because of your choice, that is a biblical truth my friend. I am not going to sugar coat it for you so you don't become offended. We are not talking about if your new haircut makes you look good we are talking about where you spend eternity and I truly care about those things; God truly cares about those things!

You may be better off focusing on why my comments make you feel "inferior" because I am simply stating the truth of things as I believe it to be. You can either take it or leave it, it is your choice...

I've been trying to avoid this thread, but I can't anymore... the bible is only truth for christians... to everyone else, it is a book of words... why don't people understand this?. I always get arguments when in the threads and the sole basis of their arguments is scripture?!

No one knows for FACT without any doubt what so ever that the bible and god are real... people have FAITH and BELIEVE that they are... BIG difference. If that is the way for you.. good for you.. I won't try to persuade you otherwise... but for people like me and millions of others, it isn't good for me. Don't judge me for that. There is too much evidence in this world for me to believe a lot of what is taught in those scriptures... I don't think they were meant to be taken literally... that is MY opinion, you don't have to believe it. But I have a brain for a reason, and I intend to expand the ability of that brain through thought and reason rather than hold it back. Why do you feel the need to try and push people to follow your faith? It just may not be for them... be concerened for them if you want, but I guarantee, they aren't.

I can't stand when people come here and say things like "you are wrong" or "you are misguided" or some other form of BS. That is YOUR opinion. Atheists are people living this life for this life. When they die they are dead... there is no heaven there is no hell. There is dirt... plain and simple.

If there is a God in the end, let him do with me as he pleases... I live my life in a kind manner, and I am friendly and I do my job, with as little complaint as possible. I do what comes naturally to me, and I abide by the moral laws... not for fear of punishment, but because it is right. If there is a God, I doubt he will have a problem with that. There are far worst out there he can damn to hell. And if he decides to damn me to hell for living an interesting life, stretching my mind, and helping other people, then send me there, I lived a wonderful life and I have people whom I love and love me in return.

I am not atheist, but I belong to a religion, where we respect other peoples choices, and do not judge them for that. I think God would be more upset over judgements by mere mortals than he would if we didn't follow a book. I don't look at myslef as any bettter or worse than anyone else. I was made by whoever to be what I am... and I am proud of that.

Fair enough you have clearly made your choice. I am not trying to cram anything down anyone's throat but I also won't stop telling it like it is... whatever your relationship with God ends up being is your personal decision so; good luck, take care, and God bless

You are a person in trouble b/c of your choice, that is a biblical truth my friend. I am not going to sugar coat it for you so you don't become offended. We are not talking about if your new haircut makes you look good we are talking about where you spend eternity and I truly care about those things; God truly cares about those things!!

You may be better off focusing on why my comments make you feel "inferior" b/c I am simply stating the truth of things as I believe it to be. You can either take it or leave it, it is your choice...Ah I see, you are one of "those". :rolleyes:

Enjoy your life.

Ah I see, you are one of "those". :rolleyes:

Enjoy your life.


I guess whatever "those" are... thanks for the label?!

Have you seen anyone else here tell you that you are doomed because you don't believe the same thing they do?

I don't believe that the Bible is up for interpretation and I don't believe it is just words, so when it says certain things regarding preparing for eternity I pay serious attention... so all of my reference comes from that knowledge. You do not see it the same way as me and in my eyes that is unfortunate... the things I have said is the truth the way I believe it... you clearly disagree and really you should be all right with that, right?

Yea but you condemn others, atheists and agnostics don't.

I don't believe that the Bible is up for interpretation and I don't believe it is just words, so when it says certain things regarding preparing for eternity I pay serious attention...so all of my reference comes from that knowledge. You do not see it the same way as me and in my eyes that is unfortunate...the things I have said is the truth the way I beleive it...you clearly disagree and really you should be alright with that, right?

Yes, Im fine with just disagreeing, as Im sure the others here are... but a line is drawn when you start telling people that THEY are wrong because YOUR beliefs say so... You need to take into consideration that THEIR beliefs say they are fine. When you don't take that into consideration, you clearly show that you are not all right with us disagreeing.

yes, Im fine with just disagreeing, as Im sure the others here are...but a line is drawn when you start telling people that THEY are wrong because YOUR beliefs say so...You need to take into consideration that THEIR beliefs say they are fine. When you dont take that into consideration, you clearly show that you are not alright with us disagreeing.

I don't have any problem disagree, I enjoy debate BUT this is about your salvation and to me it is black and white. But when one doesn't believe salvation exists or the need for it exisits than I do believe they are misled. I wouldn't spend this much time responding if I didn't care but I do and I have to keep disagreeing no matter what your beliefs are...

Don't worry about our salvation, take care of your own life; you obviously have a lot of spare time to worry about the billions of people who are not like you.

I understand caring, but it isn't like you are going to persuade them otherwise. Most of the time when a person is so animate about a religious belief, they have spent the time and researched the other beliefs. I know I have. To help them find their place. Trying to push your beliefs will not help them.

Don't worry about our salvation, take care of your own life; you obviously have a lot of spare time to worry about the billions of people who are not like you.

Gotcha, take care

I understand caring, but it isnt like you are going to persuade them otherwise. Most of the time when a person is so animate about a religious belief, they have spent the time and researched the other beliefs. I know I have. To help them find their place. trying to push your beliefs will not help them.

I am not, personally trying to persuade anyone God can only do that... my only mission is to spread the Good News of what Jesus did for all of us, died to save our lives and believing in Him is the way to eternal life... I can't force you to believe; I am not powerful or influential enough to make anyone change...

I am as well as you familiar with other belief systems... you know mine what are yours?

Although I was raised Catholic, I am Unitarian Universalist. I claim no relation to the Christian church any longer.

Although I was raised Catholic, I am Unitarian Universalist. I claim no relation to the Christian church any longer.

Okay you don't have a specific belief system, just personally whatever works for you (is that it in a nutshell or am I off base) What do you believe about Jesus?

Not quite... I have a system of beliefs based on knowledge and the search for it. I believe in God, but I think Jesus, if he truly existed, was just a man. I believe that scripture was meant as a form of teaching ideas, not to be used as laws. I am a firm believer that the bible was written for simple minded people (as they were at that time) to understand certain things. I believe in treating everyone with equality and respect. I believe in keeping sacred that which is here on our earth and count myself no better than any piece of nature. I believe in furthering our minds through science and reason.

Do you believe in Heaven and Hell? What happened to your christian roots through the Catholic church? Does believing in the bible mean you have to stop learning?
I am a non-denominational Christian and take offense by being called "simple-minded" because I believe in and follow the bible teaching LOL:D

Do you believe in Heaven and Hell? What happened to your christian roots through the Catholic church? Does believing in the bible mean you have to stop learning?
I am a non-denominational Christian and take offense by being called "simple-minded" because I believe in and follow the bible teaching LOL:D

LOL... no I don't mean that current day christians are simple minded... I meant the people the bible was originally written for... in that time.. but I see how you can be offended, I worded it wrong... sorry I didn't mean anything by it..

The catholic church was all wrong for me. Too narrow minded...

I tried the non-denominational church and it just didn't work for me either. I don't want to start an argument here, or demean your religion in any way, but I don't like the idea of using "scare tactics" (for lack of a better word please don't take offense I don't mean it personally... ). If you are good and follow the rules you will get to heaven, but if not God will damn you to hell. I believe in an afterlife, but I do not believe in satan or hell. I do not think that there is a judgement based on whether you follow the rules of the bible. I believe that you are given passage to the afterlife where you receive complete knowledge. I believe that God is all forgiving and you will pass into the afterlife regardless. I believe there are morals which you should live by. Take no ones life, respect all, love all, support your mind, take nothing that is not yours.. etc.

Believing in the bible does not mean you have to stop learning, but to me the stories in the bible are just stories, so I don't take them as law, I don't follow them by word. I believe in science and evolution, and I don't need reassurance from the bible to believe them. I don't hve a problem with homosexuality, and understand how it occurs naturally... I don't think a God would have told it not to occur, and then naturally allow it...

LOL...no i dont mean that current day christians are simple minded...I meant the people the bible was originally written for...in that time.. but I see how you can be offended, I worded it wrong...sorry I didnt mean anything by it..

The catholic church was all wrong for me. too narrow minded...

I tried the non-denominational church and it just didnt work for me either. I dont want to start an argument here, or demean your religion in any way, but I dont like the idea of using "scare tactics" (for lack of a better word please dont take offense I dont mean it personally...). If you are good and follow the rules you will get to heaven, but if not God will damn you to hell. I believe in an afterlife, but I do not believe in satan or hell. I do not think that there is a judgement based on whether you follow the rules of the bible. I believe that you are given passage to the afterlife where you receive complete knowledge. I believe that God is all forgiving and you will pass into the afterlife regardless. I believe ther are morals which you should live by. Take no ones life, respect all, love all, support your mind, take nothing that is not yours..etc.

Believing in the bible does not mean you have to stop learning, but to me the stories in the bible are just stories, so i dont take them as law, I dont follow them by word. I believe in science and evolution, and I dont need reassurance from the bible to believe them. I dont hve a problem with homosexuality, and understand how it occurs naturally...I dont think a God would have told it not to occur, and then naturally allow it...

I didn't really take offense, I was just messin... I think that the Catholics do make God out to be an angry God that you need to constantly appease (for lack of a better word) and it is also very legalistic... to quote you real quick If you are good and follow the rules you will get to heaven, but if not God will damn you to hell" you could follow every single rule every established and still go to hell...we are only saved by "grace not by works" and that Jesus is the only way for us to get to the Father. I hope and pray that some day you will experience God's love for you and really know that He wants you to put your trust in Him and have faith that he created everything and all of us..

But that all still leaves a lot of unanswered questions that we can all still ponder and research...

Thanks for the concern... but I just don't view Jesus that way. I also don't need to be saved in the end... you forget... I don't believe in salvation. Thanks though, You seem to be a nice guy.

"I like the hours, they suit me quite well."

HA! :)

Shame he didn't point out the religious organizations who provide aide to third world nations ONLY if the people convert...


That is not true. Why the lie?

Tom

I love atheism. I studied religion all my life and have never been happier with my knowledge since I became convinced that Christianity and religions were just superstition and myth and fantasy... ancient worldviews with feelgoods held over from ancient times prior to KNOWLEDGE AND FACTS AND RATIONALITY.

Being a declared atheist sets one up for *attacks*, in my experience, from some Fund Christians. As you saw at the beginning of this question, spewing lies and filth about what *THEY KNOW NOTHING ABOUT*!! Decared atheists(and secular humanists) are educated people, rational people who think for themselves.

I have to conclude that thinking for oneself is very threatening for religionists, among other conclusions.

AND, IN AMERICA!

That is not true. Why the lie?

Tom

What's not true? That the hours are great? Or that there are some religious organizations who only offer aide to the needy if they convert?