Here we go again...


Pope asserts Catholic primacy (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003783746_pope11.html)

By NICOLE WINFIELD

The Associated Press

Pope Benedict XVI said other Christian churches are defective.

LORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy — Pope Benedict XVI reasserted the primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says other Christian communities are either defective or not true churches and Catholicism provides the only true path to salvation.

The statement brought swift criticism from Protestant leaders. "It makes us question whether we are indeed praying together for Christian unity," said the World Alliance of Reformed Churches, a fellowship of 75 million Protestants in more than 100 countries.

It was the second time in a week that Benedict has corrected what he says are erroneous interpretations of the Second Vatican Council, the 1962-65 meetings that modernized the church. On Saturday, Benedict revived the old Latin Mass, a move cheered by Catholic traditionalists but criticized by more liberal ones as a step backward from Vatican II.

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which Benedict headed before becoming pope, said it was issuing the new document Tuesday because some contemporary theological interpretations of Vatican II's ecumenical intent had been "erroneous or ambiguous" and had prompted confusion and doubt.

The new document restates key sections of a 2000 text the pope wrote when he was prefect of the congregation, "Dominus Iesus," which riled Protestant and other Christian denominations because it said they were not true churches but merely ecclesial communities and therefore did not have the "means of salvation."

"Christ 'established here on earth' only one church," said the document released as the pope vacations at a villa in Lorenzago di Cadore, in Italy's Dolomite mountains.

The other communities "cannot be called 'churches' in the proper sense" because they do not have apostolic succession — the ability to trace their bishops back to Christ's original apostles — and therefore their priestly ordinations are not valid, it said.

Perhaps I should rethink my view of Catholicism?

That is sad to see indeed.

Well that is a surprise to me, I thought that this was already the view.

Wait, sorry, I see it says reasserted. Carry on.

The article complains, and cites complainers but makes no effort to show people the extent of what Benedict said, and in context (ie, a link to the document).

To note, the document, apparently, is not anything new to add to "official Catholic teaching"... but just his illumination on what has been taught for 2000 years.

Don't take that wrong, though. Here is some of what the Catholic Church "Officially" (that is, according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC)) teaches about non-Catholic Christians:

""Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276"

For more, see this section of CCC:
Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM)

Now is that the actions of a saint or what? Glad the pope is beginning to show his true colours

Now is that the actions of a saint or what? Glad the pope is beginning to show his true coloursBut he is saying exactly what you say here all the time: "other Christian communities are either defective or not true churches".

I'm confused. :confused:

Here is the full context of the document:
Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html)

So much hooplah over nothing. Some reporters are reporting a mellower version of the story including that "Local Protestants disagreed with the Vatican's declaration, but they and local Catholics said it is not new and shouldn't affect relationships between Catholics and other religions" (citation (http://www.dispatch.com/dispatch/content/local_news/stories/2007/07/11/truechurch.ART_ART_07-11-07_A1_HL78JLJ.html))

Regardless, though. Now that you have what the document really says, you can form your own opinion of it yourself, instead of letting others tell you what you should think about what it says.

The article complains, and cites complainers but makes no effort to show people the extent of what Benedict said, and in context (ie, a link to the document).

RickJ, here is the document. (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html) There'll be more from me as the day goes on. I'd kind of like to see what everyone has to say first :)

Now, here is the reasonable way to report a story such as this. Here we find a summary of the story, the document in it's entirety, followed by commentary on the document:

www.chiesa (http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=154889&eng=y)

Obviously AP is not interested in what the document says, they're just interested in creating and flaming up the hooplah.

I don't know speechlesstx,

I can't get upset over it... who cares. I don't. I think the pope is a joke. I'm not attacking him as a person, I am attacking the position. I feel sure I will be disagreed with and condemend for saying such... but I stand by the Word of God... period.

The crux of the Pope's statement seems to be around Apostolic Succession, which is the Roman Catholic position that there must be a direct line of succession of priests all the way back to Peter. But the Epsicopal Church (a protestant denomination for sure) also espouses this - part of the Nicene Creed that Episcopaleans (and all Anglicans) recite every Sunday says "I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church..." And indeed the ordination of priests requires a Bishop who himself is part of the Apostolic Succession, so that the line continues on. So the Pope's criticism is unfounded, at least with respect to Episcopaleans/Anglicans.

Benedict appears bent on erasing all the ecumenical progress that John Paul made. I have to study the matter a little more as I'm hoping his words are narrowly based on apostolic succession . The Christian world can survive a theological disagreement... certainly we've gone beyond blowing up each others churches. But this is a time that the Christian world needs to unite against the many forces that oppose it. I think the Pope has some spainin to do .

Benedict appears bent on erasing all the ecumenical progress that John Paul made. I have to study the matter a little more as I'm hoping his words are narrowly based on apostolic succession . The Christian world can survive a theological disagreement ....certainly we've gone beyond blowing up each others churches. But this is a time that the Christian world needs to unite against the many forces that oppose it. I think the Pope has some spainin to do .

I think he has some splainin' to do, too. Once you study it out, please give us some more of your insight. I'll get to splainin' my position on this eventually :D

John 14:6 ------ Does not say anything about which denomination one should be??
Ephesians 2:8-10





Grace and Peace

I should probably shut up... but I just can't! :)

1. I don't hear any reasonable comments about what's in the document, only comments about what AP says it's about.

2. As for authority and all that: So many forget that we had no "Bible" until 300 years after Christ... and that the New Testament is full of exhortations to listen to the tradition that was taught them... and listen to the leaders...

Read the document folks.

I should probably shut up...but I just can't! :)

1. I don't hear any reasonable comments about what's in the document, only comments about what AP says it's about.

2. As for authority and all that: So many forget that we had no "Bible" until 300 years after Christ...and that the New Testament is full of exhortations to listen to the tradition that was taught them...and listen to the leaders....

Read the document folks.

Rick, I think the Pope opened up a can of worms here that would have best been left closed. I'm no fan of al-AP, but this document is going to cause a stink no matter how they reported it. And again, eventually I plan on giving my take on it - I'm mostly just watching reactions here for now. I'll put it this way though, I still love my Catholic friends, brothers and sisters - but there are valid reasons many a non-Catholic resents the Roman Catholic church and this document just poured salt in old wounds.

Throwing my hat in here too. I do not see where Pope Benedict is saying anything new about the "trueness" of the Catholic Church. I don't see where Pope Benedict is trying to dismantle Vatican II. When he revived the Latin Mass, I cheered. I am a throw back to those Latin Masses, having learned in parochial school and I have missed that part of the Mass celebration. That is part of the reason I turned away from Catholicism. The tradition was fading too fast. The reverence and respect were becoming just talk.

These two articles come from the Zenit website:

The Subsisting Church of Christ
Interview With Father Augustine Di Noia - The World Seen From Rome (http://www.zenit.org/article-20092?l=english)

Holy See Clarifies Meaning of "Subsist"
Debate Stems From Vatican II Document - The World Seen From Rome (http://www.zenit.org/article-20098?l=english)

Perhaps those will shed some insight.

The appropriateness is really besides the point Steve. We both cheered the Pope when he spoke unvarnished by PC about Mohammed . Agree or disagree that view has been Catholic doctrine for some time.

Where I think clarification is needed is in that Vatican II acknowleged that there is a path to salvation for non-Catholics. The word catholic means universal and I fear that he is moving away from much of Vatican II and the ecuminism that JPII worked so hard at . We are one in the Spirit and the Lord .


The Decree On Ecuminism
Over the centuries differences between Christians have led to profound divisions, but modern times have seen a great movement towards unity; and the decree begins by saying, "Christ the Lord founded one Church and one Church only. One of the principal concerns of this Council is the restoration of unity among all Christians."

1. All who have been "justified by faith in baptism" are members of the Body of Christ; they all have the right to be called Christian; the children of the Catholic Church accept them as brothers.

2. The Catholic Church believes that the separated Churches and communities "are efficient in some respects." But the Holy Ghost makes use of these Churches; they are means of salvation to their members.

3. Catholics are encouraged to join in Oecumenical activity, and to meet non-Catholic Christians in truth and love. The task of "Oecumenical dialogue" belongs to theologians, competent authorities representing different Churches.

4. Catholics should not ignore their duty to other Christians --- they should make the first approach. Even so, the primary duty of the Church at the present time is to discover what must be done within the catholic Church itself; to renew itself, to put its own house in order. Catholics sincerely believe that theirs is the Church of Christ; everything necessary must be done that others also may clearly recognize it as Christ's Church.

5. The ecumenical movement can make no progress without a real change of heart. Theologians and other competent Catholics should study the history, teaching and liturgy of separated Churches. All Christians have a common purpose -- to confess Christ before men. Practical expression must be given to this, by relieving the distress which afflicts so many of the human race: famine, poverty, illiteracy, the unequal distribution of wealth, housing shortage.

6. In appropriate circumstances prayers for unity should be recited jointly with non-Catholic Christians. Catholics are to be directed in this by their bishops, subject to the decisions of the Holy see.

7. Between the catholic Church and Western non-Catholic Christian communities, important differences remain; these differences are most evident in the interpretation of truth revealed by God. But the bonds of unity are already strong; their strength must be put to use. The bonds are, chiefly, the fact that Christians believe in the divinity of Christ and the fact of reverence for God's word revealed in the Bible.

8. In the cause of ecumenism, the Catholic must always remain true to the Faith that he has received. Impudent zeal in this matter is a hindrance to unity and not a help. So also is any attempt to achieve a merely superficial unity.

The Second Vatican Ecumenical Council - Dedicated to "The Immaculate". (http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/v1.html#Church)




Shygrneyzs I am also a big fan of the Latin liturgy . I learned it in my alterboy training days and then the English vernacular was introduced before I had a chance to really put my Latin into practice.

Tomder, you point out good things. The above about summarizes my own lay-apostolate.

From document provided 'The Word seen from Rome'


"These ecclesial communities, which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood, have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called 'Churches' in the proper sense."

I need some clarification . I was under the impression that the Protestant congregations do not consider themselves "churches" anyway.

I need some clarification . I was under the impression that the Protestant congregations do not consider themselves "churches" anyway.

Hmmm, I never knew that... I can't recall ever thinking we weren't the church, part of the Body of Christ.

Ok, I'll give my two cents now. First I want to highlight a point tom made:


We are one in the Spirit and the Lord.

Amen to that.

I have no problem with a church remaining true to their faith, their doctrine, traditions, etc. in fact it should be expected. But isn't it a bit contradictory to press for a stated goal of unity while also telling us we're "defective" or "deficient"? Note these excerpts, first from Vatican II (http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html)...


"It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects"

"Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body"

"For it is only through Christ's Catholic Church, which is "the all-embracing means of salvation," that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation."

"the Catholic Church has been endowed with all divinely revealed truth and with all means of grace"

From the current document:


"Christ “established here on earth” only one Church and instituted it as a “visible and spiritual community”, that from its beginning and throughout the centuries has always existed and will always exist, and in which alone are found all the elements that Christ himself instituted"

"“It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects"

"According to Catholic doctrine, these Communities do not enjoy apostolic succession in the sacrament of Orders, and are, therefore, deprived of a constitutive element of the Church. These ecclesial Communities which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood, have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called “Churches” in the proper sense."

How does it promote unity to say we are "deficient," "suffer from defects," "not blessed with that unity," "deprived," cannot be called "churches" and we can only "benefit fully" through the Catholic church? And for the record, I'm not too keen on any church that makes a claim of exclusivity, i.e. the "one, true church". In other words, tell me where we disagree and let's discuss things, but don't tell me I'm a brother in Christ while telling me I'm "deficient" because I'm not a part of your church. That is the sort of thing that divides, not unites, and all sides are guilty.

I never knew the Catholic church growing up though I had many a Catholic friend. It was news to me some years later to learn I needed the Catholic church to "benefit fully" from God's grace. I hope it isn't news to my Catholic friends that we've been fully benefiting from the grace of God just fine without Roman Catholicism. I admit we as a church aren't perfect, but I don't believe there is a church today that is perfect. There were imperfections, divisions and doctrinal errors in the earliest church if you believe the bible - what makes anyone think it just got better the further removed we get from that early church?

What I do know is this, "whereas I was blind, now I see." Isn't that enough?

Steve

Steve ;don't feel too offended . I haven't when I've been called non-Christian or worse by some Christians because we practice in their view non-essential traditions.

The Catholic Church considers Protestants to be the "separated brethren" because of the view that it is the Catholic Church which is the church that Jesus established, and not the Protestant denominations.The Protestant Reformation is seen as a schismatic movement which created disunity in Christ's church . Ecumenicalism has been a goal stated in the Catachism for a long time .


855
The Church's mission stimulates efforts towards Christian unity.Indeed, "divisions among Christians prevent the Church from realizing in practice the fullness of catholicity proper to her in those of her sons who, though joined to her by Baptism, are yet separated from full communion with her. Furthermore, the Church herself finds it more difficult to express in actual life her full catholicity in all its aspects."

Further it is clear from the Catachism 817;818;819 that we consider non-Catholic Christians as brothers




817
In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church—for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body—here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270—do not occur without human sin:


Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271


818
"However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers.. . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272


819
"Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Steve ;don't feel too offended . I haven't when I've been called non-Christian or worse by some Christians because we practice in their view non-essential traditions.

Ah tom, I'm not offended, it just seems a bit contradictory to press for unity and calling us 'brethren' while basically telling us we're 'lesser' at the same time. But hey, I know we've both been called worse :)

I understand the Catholic Church's view, but I sometimes wonder if the Catholic Church understands things from our perspective - just as many a non-Catholic misunderstands the Catholic doctrine.

I used to be one of those that took a limited understanding of Catholic doctrine and thought, "that's just not right." However, the more I learned of true Catholicism, the more I realized that in spite of our differences there was no justification for that kind of nonsense directed at Catholics and Catholicism.

But back to wondering if Catholics understand our perspective... as I said before I knew nothing of Catholicism until long after I became a believer. I'm a child of God now and that's all that matters as far as I'm concerned, and I believe that's the proper - and biblical - view. There's an old southern gospel song I remember hearing that puts it rather simply:


It's not what's over the door
Of the church that you attend,
That makes you a child of God,
And a heavenly citizen.
As the eyes of the Lord look this world o'er,
There's just one thing He's lookin' for
Can't you see that it's what's in your heart
And not what's over the door

Of course if one wants to make fun of the nonsense that does exist in the church there's another old song I remember...


Funny thing happened on the way to Church last Sunday,
Billows of smoke came rollin' from the door.
I ran up to tell the leading Deacon
Something should be done, 'cause the Church is on fire for sure.
(And he said)

Chorus:


That's a point well put, and a timely suggestion.
We'll bring it up, at the very next meeting
Of the board of Deacons, a week from Tuesday.
I don't know why, it's just Church policy
At the First Nazametha, Bapticostal, 7th day Orthodox, Lutheterian,
Non-Denominational Church of Our Lady of the Mind.

Well, we were back in Church the very next Sunday
In a tent bought and paid for by the building fund.
I stood up to tell the congregation
"There's a tornado coming, everybody run!" (And they said)


That's a point well put, and a timely suggestion.
We'll bring it up, at the very next meeting
Of the board of Deacons, a week from Tuesday.
I don't know why, it's just Church policy
At the First Nazametha, Bapticostal, 7th day Orthodox, Lutheterian,
Non-Denominational Church of Our Lady of the Mind.

We had an open-air meeting the very next Sunday
When the trumpets sounded, and the clouds were rolled away.
I stood up to tell the congregation
"Lift up your heads, the Lord has come today........" (And they said)


That's a point well put, and a timely suggestion.
We'll bring it up, at the very next meeting
Of the board of Deacons, a week from Tuesday.
I don't know why, it's just Church policy
At the First Nazametha, Bapticostal, 7th day Orthodox, Lutheterian,
Non-Denominational Church of Our Lady of the Mind.

I think I've been to that church, which is why I'm now a Frisbeetarian; we believe when you die, your soul flies up onto the roof and gets stuck there. :D

speechlesstx agrees: Tessy, I'm not upset - as someone once said, "I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." Right?.

Ahhh! Steve... now them's beuteeful words!! Lol

it just seems a bit contradictory to press for unity and calling us 'brethren' while basically telling us we're 'lesser' at the same time.

I agree ,and furthermore being a member of' Voice of the Faithful 'I am not adverse to the idea of reviewing doctine that doesn't make sense anymore or is in need of modification.

I agree ,and furthermore being a member of' Voice of the Faithful 'I am not adverse to the idea of reveiwing doctine that doesn't make sense anymore or is in need of modification.

Amen my brother :)