Hello Everyone,

We all live a sheltered life of comfort. But what happens to those who are not "Gods children?"

Are these the ones to be resurrected to life or death?

Where are the dead according to your personal belief system until the Resurrection?

Please back up your beliefs with why you believe the way you do. Thank you.

Hope12

I believe there is no God's creation who is not God's child. Everybody returns to the father after our life on earth. This is a life we begin with god in heaven, our souls become our identity.

We all start afresh in heaven as X Y and Z...

No one knows what happens after you die. Not a single person alive on this earth can tell that with any certainty. So in the end it does not matter whether you are a child of any god.

Hello Everyone,

We all live a sheltered life of comfort. But what happens to those who are not "Gods children?"

Are these the ones to be ressurected to life or death?

Where are the dead according to your personal belief system until the Ressurection??

Please back up your beliefs with why you believe the way you do. Thank you.

Hope12

From what I know(based on the Bible & experience) The dead in Christ, their spirits are in Heaven (also the O.T) righteous. Their spirit is who they really are.
The unsaved dead, when they die, go to a Hell (Such as in Luke 16:19-31) (Also, see 2Peter2) In Rev.21-They are resurrected only for judgment purposes then they are cast into the Lake of Fire. Here's an interesting thing I read- is that if they were deemed "not so bad" unbelievers- then they would cease to exist in the Lake of Fire. If they were really wicked unbelievers, they would suffer a little while before ceasing to exist in the Lake of Fire.

John 14.6 Jesus, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No-one comes to the Father except through me."

I look at this as meaning that unless you can call on the name of the Lord then you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. I do think that very young children and people with very bad disabiltys that can not make there own choice's will be saved in God's grace - Romans 9.18 -

I see it as people that can call upon the name of the Lord will be in Heaven until the Resurrection but people that can not call on the name will be in Hell !

Okay I'm a Christain born and raised a Christain. One can't really prove what will happen to anyone in the afterlife. We know that God loves all of his children and all of use will be judged for our life. No matter if you believe in him or not you can be saved. God sent his only son down to die for our sins giving us a chance to make it to Heaven. Just live a good life and you will make it. God's always watching over us.
- Erin

Okay i'm a Christain born and raised a Christain. One can't really prove what will happen to anyone in the afterlife. We know that God loves all of his children and all of use will be judged for our life. No matter if you believe in him or not you can be saved. God sent his only son down to die for our sins givin us a chance to make it to Heaven. Just live a good life and you will make it. God's always watching over us.
- ErinErin, I'm sorry, but your statements are contradictory.
There is a general mercy that goes on for all people in this life. However, God sent His only Son to die for the sins of all mankind- BUT YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT THAT FREE GIFT! I would think that would have been basic learning.

There are people who have lived and died without ever knowing Christ. Do you really think our Heavenly Father would have them live eternally in hell? No, He is a loving Father. Hell is reserved for those who have committed grievous sins without repentance. There is hope for us all. We all will be resurrected and judged by One who knows us best. ANd then we will receive our reward or punishment.

There are people who have lived and died without ever knowing Christ. Do you really think our Heavenly Father would have them live eternally in hell? No, He is a loving Father. Hell is reserved for those who have committed grievous sins without repentance. There is hope for us all. We all will be resurrected and judged by One who knows us best. ANd then we will receive our reward or punishment.
Lacey, we are given a free will. We can accpet Jesus or we can reject him. The choice is ours and I agree our Heavenly Father is full of love and mercy. Hell is reserved for the sinner without Christ... in Revelation it states clearly all that will be cast into the Lake of fire and there are many horrible types of sinners/sins listed but it also states and the unbelieving too are cast. God sends no one there... man sends himself there. He sent Jesus to rescue us but we have to take his hand.

Lacey, we are given a free will. We can accpet Jesus or we can reject him. The choice is ours and I agree our Heavenly Father is full of love and mercy. Hell is reserved for the sinner without Christ...in Revelation it states clearly all that will be cast into the Lake of fire and there are many horrible types of sinners/sins listed but it also states and the unbelieving too are cast. God sends no one there...man sends himself there. He sent Jesus to rescue us but we have to take his hand.

I don't know and wouldn't pretend that I do know. I trust God is merciful, loving, kind. I feel certain there is a provision for those who have never had the opportunity to accept or reject Christ. (those are my thoughts and I can't back that with scripture) I can back up this... those who reject the Lord Jesus Christ and die in their sins will spend eternity in hell.

Here is the thing, we are given a free will he won't make us do anything we don't want to but he did provide a way for us to be with HIM forever. To be honest, in the natural I suppose it doesn't seem fair but I'm not God and He is sovereign.

In fact, ( I will probably be eaten alive for this comment) I would say it is the thing man in his natural state hates the most about God... His sovereignty.

In fact, ( i will probably be eaten alive for this comment) I would say it is the thing man in his natural state hates the most about God...His sovereignity.That cannot be true since millions of good people live without God and they are free of any hate.

That cannot be true since millions of good people live without God and they are free of any hate.

You know "millions" of people who are free of hate? My gosh, you ARE well travelled. Kudos.

Yes, I do and yes I am.

Hope, as I said before, EVERYONE will be resurrected: (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/john-5-28-29-a-103141.html#post472268)


But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. Acts 24:14-15

Why don't we deal with that much first?

Where do you go when you die? It's all according to your particular belief system. If you're religious you believe you're going to end up in Heaven although the Bible is strangely silent on a description. Muslem males get to go to Paradise and frolic with virgins that "revirginize" after each encounter. I don't have the word about Muslem women.
I'm a little more pragmatic on the subject. I've talked to people that are certain that pets go to Heaven and are waiting there to be reunited with their owners. Nice to think about but let's be practical. If there were a "doggie or a kitty kat heaven" then it follows there must be a "horsey heaven " and a "cockroach heave ect. ( the list includes eve4ry thing that ever lived.)
My personal belief is that when your dead, that's it, your dead. There are just too many paradoxes connected to the concept of a afterlife. But hey!!
If it makes you feel good to believe that your spirit exists forever or you'll b e reunited with pet and family menbers, ( or even to frolic with a bunch od virgins in Paradise ) that's your choice.
Where do you go when you die?? Any place your personal belief system covers. My personal conception of Hell would be to stuck in the middle of Jimmy Swaggarts ot Pat Robersons audience for eternity and not be able to escape.
Never knock anybodies belief system because this might just be the one you end up in because, "YA NEVER KNOW!

For those of you who ask what about those who haven't heard the gospel, consider this:

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. Romans 1:18-20

It sounds to me like the bible is saying people are "without excuse," or is that not what was said here? But to me this also indicates that technically, you don't have to hear the gospel to be saved, "since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them." Deny God at your peril... and besides, what exactly does one have to lose by simply believing?

Sppechlesstx,

I actually agree with you... I feel that man in his natural states HATES God's sovereignty. That is my opinion. That is why people get so upset at the thought of one way to heaven. They don't like it. They would rather debate, conclude, feel, think and summarize without finding out what God says. It is easier to point to another race, people or religion and say what about them! But God says... what will YOU do with Christ.

Also consider this verse in John speaking of Christ:

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth EVERY man that cometh into the world.

How does he do this? I don't know, but I am content with letting God be God.

After I retired from plumbing I volunteered at a local abortion clinic as a escort escorting frightened young girls past screaming protesters. After 3 years I was put on staff as Head of Security, chief escort and Clinic spokesman. In the following 10 years until I retired again I heard from the fundimental protesters over and over again, What speechless asks. "what exactly does one have to lose by simply believing?"

My response to that was, " think back to when you were a child when you believed in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy or the easter bunny. I want you to start "simply believing" in them again. What's that? you can't?? Why not?? You just asked the same thing out of me."
You can no more force belief on a person then you can change your own.
I an totally against religious whackos that attempt to force their particular brand of religion down your throat because "It's the one true religious belief and everyone elses is wrong." These people fly in the face of scientific fact.
The Earth is flat because the Bible mentions the 4 corners of the Earth. The earth is only a few thousand years old and one poster claimed that dinosaurs never existed and the bones were put there by satan to confuse us that the earth is really older then a few thousand years.
As I said, We are all free to believe, or not to believe, anything we want. Just don't try to force yours on me. I'm happy with mine.

Sppechlesstx,

I actually agree with you... I feel that man in his natural states HATES God's sovereignty. That is my opinion. That is why people get so upset at the thought of one way to heaven. They don't like it. They would rather debate, conclude, feel, think and summarize without finding out what God says. It is easier to point to another race, people or religion and say what about them! ? But God says....what will YOU do with Christ.

Also consider this verse in John speaking of Christ:

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth EVERY man that cometh into the world.

How does he do this? I don't know, but I am content with letting God be God.
Tessy I have read the bible not all but a lot of it and what I interpret and what someone else interepts is different am I going to hell if I do my best... this is the problem that I have and it caused me many many of sleepless night of torment until... I just refuse to worry about it anymore. I try to be the best person I can be and if that is not enough then maybe I am doomed.

After I retired from plumbing I volunteered at a local abortion clinic as a escort escorting frightened young girls past screaming protesters. After 3 years I was put on staff as Head of Security, chief escort and Clinic spokesman. In the following 10 years until I retired again I heard from the fundimental protesters over and over again, What speechless asks. "what exactly does one have to lose by simply believing?"

My response to that was, " think back to when you were a child when you believed in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy or the easter bunny. I want you to start "simply believing" in them again. What's that? you can't?? Why not?? You just asked the same thing out of me."
You can no more force belief on a person then you can change your own.
I an totally against religious whackos that attempt to force their particular brand of religion down your throat because "It's the one true religious belief and everyone elses is wrong." These people fly in the face of scientific fact.
The Earth is flat because the Bible mentions the 4 corners of the Earth. The earth is only a few thousand years old and one poster claimed that dinosaurs never existed and the bones were put there by satan to confuse us that the earth is really older then a few thousand years.
As I said, We are all free to believe, or not to believe, anything we want. Just don't try to force yours on me. I'm happy with mine.


Dude,

I feel your pain. There are lots and lots of weird so called "Christian" ideas out there. Don't go by what other people think or say... my point is.. find out what God has to say.

tessy I have read the bible not all but a lot of it and what i interpet and waht someone else interepts is different am I going to hell if I do my best...this is the problem that I have and it caused me many many of sleepless night of torment until ...I just refuse to worry about it anymore. I try to be the best person I can be and if that is not enough then maybe I am doomed.

Pray before you read.. start in JOHN and ask God to show you what he wants you to see. He say He draws near to us when we draw near to Him.. He says ask and He will answer you. ASK GOD... not men. Dude, some of the weirdest people I know are Christians and they are screwed up too. Don't look to man... look to God. I promise He will show you.

Dude,

I feel your pain. There are lots and lots of weird so called "Christian" ideas out there. don't go by what other people think or say...my point is ..find out what God has to say.


Well said you just have to make sure you really want to listen when he knocks :)

"my point is ..find out what God has to say." As Ronnie used to say, " Now there you go again!!" You're asking me to believe. Now that's pretty difficult for a atheist to do. Sort of like me asking you to stop believing. Same thing thing exactly!
You say you feel my pain? I don't have any pain. It used to bug hell out of the fundamentalists when I would tell them that I was a completely contented man. I was assured that it was a false feeling and unless I accepted Jesus I would never be happy and die a bitter old man.
Well folks Here it is years later! I'm 80 and in my "twilight years". Still happy and contented having grown old in exactly the location I've chosen to live in. I have the love of a good woman and a small Shih Tsu dog that thinks he's the master and I'm his human. Not rich but not poor. I wonder how many of the protesters can say the same thing?
Feel my pain? Nah! But you can share in my contentment and piece of mind if you wish. I've got plenty to spare.

Sppechlesstx,

I actually agree with you... I feel that man in his natural states HATES God's sovereignty. That is my opinion. That is why people get so upset at the thought of one way to heaven. They don't like it. They would rather debate, conclude, feel, think and summarize without finding out what God says. It is easier to point to another race, people or religion and say what about them! ? But God says....what will YOU do with Christ.

Also consider this verse in John speaking of Christ:

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth EVERY man that cometh into the world.

How does he do this? I don't know, but I am content with letting God be God.

About all can say to that is amen. :)

"my point is ..find out what God has to say." As Ronnie used to say, " Now there you go again!!" You're asking me to believe. Now that's pretty difficult for a atheist to do. Sort of like me asking you to stop believing. Same thing thing exactly!!
You say you feel my pain? I don't have any pain. It used to bug hell out of the fundamentalists when I would tell them that I was a completely contented man. I was assured that it was a false feeling and unless I accepted Jesus I would never be happy and die a bitter old man.
Well folks Here it is years later! I'm 80 and in my "twilight years". Still happy and contented having grown old in exactly the location I've chosen to live in. I have the love of a good woman and a small Shih Tsu dog that thinks he's the master and I'm his human. Not rich but not poor. I wonder how many of the protesters can say the same thing?
Feel my pain?? Nah!! But you can share in my contentment and piece of mind if you wish. I've got plenty to spare.


Lol... good for you speedy!!
Dude, I didn't know you were an atheist . As far as feeling "your pain" I was referring to some of the stupid things people do in the name of christianity. I suppose it is more like you feeling my pain.. I am embarrassed by some of the silly stuff that people do in the name of Chirst. I'm glad you are so happy dude. ;)

I am all for believing I agree are earth is an awesome....but it kills me when someone tells me I'm going to hell for cutting my hair...eating pork...watching t.v. wearing shorts etc...if I don't believe their way I am doomed

bushg, I am wholeheartedly behind what Tessy said. Things like you're saying here are what she touched on, listening to man instead of what God wants to say to you. If someone says to you you're "going to hell for cutting my hair...eating pork...watching t.v. wearing shorts etc" they don't understand God or the bible. It's not about any of that, it's about trusting God.

John 14.6 Jesus, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No-one comes to the Father except through me."

I look at this as meaning that unless you can call on the name of the Lord then you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. I do think that very young children and people with very bad disabiltys that can not make there own choice's will be saved in God's grace - Romans 9.18 -

I see it as people that can call upon the name of the Lord will be in Heaven until the Ressurection but people that can not call on the name will be in Hell !
The consensus from the Christian leaders & theologians on this is that- Everyone is born with a God consciousness. If a person is in an inaccessible area or remote area that ministers of the Gospel cannot reach- or that they don't have modern technology to hear the Gospel or know about the Bible , then they will be judged by their goodness or not according to the God consciousness. Also disabled, who cannot understand & children (until an age of accountability)
Romans 1: 18-20
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
Hope you got the answer today. Love & Peace.

After I retired from plumbing I volunteered at a local abortion clinic as a escort escorting frightened young girls past screaming protesters. After 3 years I was put on staff as Head of Security, chief escort and Clinic spokesman. In the following 10 years until I retired again I heard from the fundimental protesters over and over again, What speechless asks. "what exactly does one have to lose by simply believing?"

My response to that was, " think back to when you were a child when you believed in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy or the easter bunny. I want you to start "simply believing" in them again. What's that? you can't?? Why not?? You just asked the same thing out of me."
You can no more force belief on a person then you can change your own.
I an totally against religious whackos that attempt to force their particular brand of religion down your throat because "It's the one true religious belief and everyone elses is wrong." These people fly in the face of scientific fact.
The Earth is flat because the Bible mentions the 4 corners of the Earth. The earth is only a few thousand years old and one poster claimed that dinosaurs never existed and the bones were put there by satan to confuse us that the earth is really older then a few thousand years.
As I said, We are all free to believe, or not to believe, anything we want. Just don't try to force yours on me. I'm happy with mine.
I can see where you were jaded towards "religion" because religion in your example of the protesters was from the very extreme right. I don't agree with fanaticism. They should take their protests to Washington peacefully or just vote for those politicians who will promise to overturn Roe vs. Wade. Do fanatics still target abortion clinics? I haven't heard about any instances in yrs.
You see that is a very moral decision. With law or not.
I had a friend, back in the early days, just before abortion was legalized. I drove her to an apt. somewhere in Brooklyn, where a woman placed something in the uterus for a price.
We drove to to a hotel & stayed about 36 hrs. I had to place the "embryo" in the garbage.
God forgive her. So if a woman simply can't handle a baby at a specific time- it seems that they will risk bleeding to death to abort it. I know she changed her ways since then, but the point I'm trying to make is that this country has come a long way in regards to how they feel about the sanctity of life. We have woken up from the cloud of that kind of liberalism. I know that if either of my daughters now were to be in that predicament, I am pro-life(it helps for them to have this mother too!)
So you say you are 80 SB. Do you know or care what will happen to you or any loved ones when you die?

Yes those of firm belief that know abortion is murder and the doctors that do it, are killers, yes we still protest, I have not in a couple years, ( there are no open any longer around my area , thank God.

But in Atlanta, I was a regular with my sign and my flyers. If we just saved one life, it would have been worth years of protest, because what is the value of life. And we don't see you calling the protesters outside the prison against captital punishment being called fanatics?
But no it is not fanatics, it is great people who want to save lives.
Te fanatics are the ones that use abortion as birth control and have no respect for human life, and even worst the terrorsts licensed under the medical profession that does the abortions. The mothers can be forgiven, and even the medical staff doing the killing can be, but they have to first admit their sin and ask forgiveness,

Yes those of firm beleif that know abortion is murder and the doctors that do it, are killers, yes we still protest, I have not in a couple years, ( there are no open any longer around my area , thank God.

But in Atlanta, I was a regular with my sign and my flyers. If we just saved one life, it would have been worth years of protest, because what is the value of life. And we don't see you calling the protesters outside the prison against captital punishment being called fanatics ??
But no it is not fanatics, it is great people who want to save lives.
Te fanatics are the ones that use abortion as birth control and have no respect for human life, and even worst the terrorsts licensed under the medical profession that does the abortions. The mothers can be forgiven, and even the medical staff doing the killing can be, but they have to first admit thier sin and ask forgiveness,

Most abortions are wrong and there is no room for compromise. Having said that, as a Christian I would rather help someone see that it is wrong perhaps lead them to consider other options, rather than stand outside with signs and scream at the women that go into the clinic. It is like harassment and frankly that hasn't changed anyone's mind. This is where using wisdom comes in real handy. Some protesters have killed in the name of Christianity and felt righteous for it. Please! Wisdom, Wisdom, Wisdom.. otherwise we make a mockery of Christianity.

Sorry that was off thread but I wanted to respond. ;)

Yes those of firm beleif that know abortion is murder and the doctors that do it, are killers, yes we still protest, I have not in a couple years, ( there are no open any longer around my area , thank God.

But in Atlanta, I was a regular with my sign and my flyers. If we just saved one life, it would have been worth years of protest, because what is the value of life. And we don't see you calling the protesters outside the prison against captital punishment being called fanatics ??
But no it is not fanatics, it is great people who want to save lives.
Te fanatics are the ones that use abortion as birth control and have no respect for human life, and even worst the terrorsts licensed under the medical profession that does the abortions. The mothers can be forgiven, and even the medical staff doing the killing can be, but they have to first admit thier sin and ask forgiveness,

Well Chuck, I wasn't going to bring it up but since you jumped into this thread you're the poster that put it down in black and white that the earth was only a few thousand years old and the dinosaur bones were put there by satan just to confuse us about the earths age. It must be a scary world that you live in Chuck, filled with demons, devils and whatnot. It doesn't supprise me that you were one of the middle age white men protesting outside of a women's clinic. You and people like you are what propelled me into fighting for women's rights. You've told your story, now let me tell you mine.

I retired as a plumbing foreman in 1988. I used to drive by the Sarasota Women's Health Clinic and see 50 to 75 protesters with signs and gross pictures ganging up on a single female as she attempted to enter the clinic compound. I would honk my air horns and shake a coathanger at them.
One day I stopped and listened to what they were shouting at the girls. "Whore! slut! murderer! were just a few of the nasty things that were heaped on them as they walked in. They were throwing tiny plastic dolls dipped in red fingernail polish in open car windows as they drove into the parking lot. They stopped that when one hit a girl in the eye.
When I volunteered as a escort the next day I had no idea it would last for thirteen years and that I would end up working with our local police and be responsible for sending a lot of the protesters to jail. In 1993 when the "lifers" begain killing doctors and escorts, the clinic put me on staff as head of security and chief escort and clinic spokesman. Because the female staff members were fearful of their faces being shown on TV I did the clinic interviews.l
In my job I have gone head to head with most of the heavy hitters in abortion protesting. Randel Terry of Operation Rescue, Flip Benham of Rescue America, Joe Scheidler of The Pro-Life Action League, Tom and Linda McGlade of Missionaries for Life to name a few. All used guilt as a club and religion as a threat. I'll not go into the insults, the threats, the stalking of both are patients and staff members, except to say the threats, intimidation, guilt and physical violence were just some of the weapons used against clinic staff and patients.
In my job I have been attacked three times, shot at twice, went through four bomb scares and had two anthrax letters come to our office, one of which we opened and got white powder on myself and the office manager. The letter inside the envelope condemed abortion and informed us we had just been exposed to anthrax and were going to die. It took three days for Hazmat to analyze the substance and report it was harmless. Have you any idea the terror involved in not knowing if you would live or die?
In my capacity as head of security, I have sent many protesters to jail and spent a lot of free time in court testifying against them. Some for violent action but most for harassment and trespass after warning. I kept at my job because I believe in women's rights. For far too long they were second class citizens, not being able to vote, own property or have control over their own bodies.
Women have fought too long and hard, have suffered too many hardships attaining these rights to have even one of them taken from them.
I'm retired again. I've run my race and looking back on it, remembering the hundreds of frightened girls I've escorted past screaming whackos, I can feel proud that in my small way I have helped keep women's rights where they belong. With women, and not with some middle-aged white man shouting threats and insults outside a clinic.

Well Chuck, I wasn't gonna bring it up but since you jumped into this thread you're the poster that put it down in black and white that the earth was only a few thousand years old and the dinosaur bones were put there by satan just to confuse us about the earths age. It must be a scary world that you live in Chuck, filled with demons, devils and whatnot. It doesn't supprise me that you were one of the middle age white men protesting outside of a womens clinic. You and people like you are what propelled me into fighting for womens rights. You've told your story, now let me tell you mine.

I retired as a plumbing foreman in 1988. I used to drive by the Sarasota Women's Health Clinic and see 50 to 75 protesters with signs and gross pictures ganging up on a single female as she attempted to enter the clinic compound. I would honk my air horns and shake a coathanger at them.
One day I stopped and listened to what they were shouting at the girls. "Whore! slut! murderer! were just a few of the nasty things that were heaped on them as they walked in. They were throwing tiny plastic dolls dipped in red fingernail polish in open car windows as they drove into the parking lot. They stopped that when one hit a girl in the eye.
When I volunteered as a escort the next day I had no idea it would last for thirteen years and that I would end up working with our local police and be responsible for sending a lot of the protesters to jail. In 1993 when the "lifers" begain killing doctors and escorts, the clinic put me on staff as head of security and chief escort and clinic spokesman. Because the female staff members were fearful of their faces being shown on TV I did the clinic interviews.l
In my job I have gone head to head with most of the heavy hitters in abortion protesting. Randel Terry of Operation Rescue, Flip Benham of Rescue America, Joe Scheidler of The Pro-Life Action League, Tom and Linda McGlade of Missionaries for Life to name a few. All used guilt as a club and religion as a threat. I'll not go into the insults, the threats, the stalking of both are patients and staff members, except to say the threats, intimidation, guilt and physical violence were just some of the weapons used against clinic staff and patients.
In my job I have been attacked three times, shot at twice, went through four bomb scares and had two anthrax letters come to our office, one of which we opened and got white powder on myself and the office manager. The letter inside the envelope condemed abortion and informed us we had just been exposed to anthrax and were going to die. It took three days for Hazmat to analyze the substance and report it was harmless. Have you any idea the terror involved in not knowing if you would live or die?
In my capacity as head of security, I have sent many protesters to jail and spent a lot of free time in court testifying against them. Some for violent action but most for harassment and trespass after warning. I kept at my job because I believe in women's rights. For far too long they were second class citizens, not being able to vote, own property or have control over their own bodies.
Women have fought too long and hard, have suffered too many hardships attaining these rights to have even one of them taken from them.
I'm retired again. I've run my race and looking back on it, remembering the hundreds of frightened girls I've escorted past screaming whackos, I can feel proud that in my small way I have helped keep women's rights where they belong. With women, and not with some middle-aged white man shouting threats and insults outside a clinic.

Christians believe that God values human life greatly, and that God has shown this by sending Jesus to die for us. A lot of views regards abortion can be seen in v/s =

'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you.' (Jeremiah 1:5)

'The Lord brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the grave and raises up.' (1 Samuel 2:6)

'But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.' (Romans 5:8)

There is no specific instruction given about abortion in the Bible, so what Christians believe about it must be based on interpreting passages which appear to speak about the sanctity of life. Naturally, this lead to a variety of viewpoints concerning the rightness or wrongness of abortion. This in my view is a grey area that's is not clear cut !

My views as a Christian are that I do not judge anybody for there actions, in my view only on the day of a persons judgment will they answer for anything that they have done during there life time on earth !

speedball1 it sounds that you have seen a lot during your life and have a lot of views and input seeing things from all different angles, thanks for your input and shearing the above with us.

But what happens to those who are not "Gods children?"
I think you have defined a group that includes no members.

Ya know I never wondered too much about what happens to you when you die. We're all going to find out in the end. What bugs me is where was I before I was born? Is there some sort of celestial nursery where tiny souls are waiting to be born? And what about having lived before in another time?
That would shoot hell out of the Gods Nursery theory. So where does that leave us? Why right where we've always been! You can quote Bible passages to me till the cows come home but in the final end it all boils down to** I DON'T KNOW! **

Ya know I never wondered too much about what happens to you when you die. We're all gonna find out in the end. What bugs me is where was I before I was born? Is there some sort of celestial nursery where tiny souls are waiting to be born? And what about having lived before in another time?
That would shoot hell outta the Gods Nursery theory. So where does that leave us? Why right where we've always been! You can quote Bible passages to me till the cows come home but in the final end it all boils down to** I DON'T KNOW!!**

I guess my answer would be that My Faith holds me strong in my view of Life after Death with the Lord in Heaven

poppa0777 (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/../members/poppa0777.html) disagrees: We can trust the Holy Bible to see where our final destination will be. Period.
The narrow mindedness is stagerring. Hope asked the question wanting to get opinions. I gave mine. You seem to want to shut down all opinions different than your own. That is what turns people off.

NeedKarma,

It is just that poppo777 believes in absolute Truth... you think it is intolerence.. but it isn't. It is called faith.

The narrow mindedness is stagerring. Hope asked the question wanting to get opinions. I gave mine. You seem to want to shut down all opinions different than your own. That is what turns people off.
Ah, but not having been raised in the Church, my mind was a wide open book. I have already considered "your" theory of nothingness after we die. Now, with Christ, I am a new person & my mind has been transformed. I have hope because the Bible tells me so, & also because the Holy Spirit has shown me visions that only God could know & answer. It is this faith that brings joy- & a promise of a joyful ending.
The Bible also tells us that there is no such thing as "nothingness" after you die. Therefore, the only narrowness is the gate we need to go through to get to Heaven.
I felt for you so I didn't give a disagree-bc I know that you are very sensitive. Jesus can help you with that if you will accept Him, because He loves you & He is strong for us when we are weak.

So high, you can't get over it,
So wide, you can't get around it,
So low, you can't get under it-
You got to come in at the door!

I hope you will open your heart and mind to the love of Christ today because tomorrow is promised to no one. God Bless!

It's the other way around with me. I was raised in Roman Catholic environment: Catholic schools, I was confirmed, went to private Jesuit school, had something akin to Bible class. My parents are wonderfully open minded people who gave me a great childhood. During my travels around part of the world and my university degree I met tons of great people that are good people regardless of colour, nationality, religious beliefs, etc. But then I started noticing the hypocritical christians among me. Then I notoced the divisiveness that I see here. I figured out that I'm a happy guy who doesn't need a book to tell me what to do (plus some of the bits in the book seem way too far-fetched when you really start to think about it).

I noticed that a lot of the people who are strict fundamentalists have had very bad experiences in their lives (substance abuse, some trauma of some sort, neglectful or absent parenting, et.) and theyare in need of some form of guide since, left to themselves they make bad decisions. Well in those cases more power to them if it keeps them on the straight and narrow. I don't have those issues. I had great parents, I make good decisions and I love being married and being a dad. I have no need for the book or faith in an unseen being. I know you can't seem to deal with that but that's OK with me. The incessant preaching does not turn people to your side - in my opinion it strenghtens my decision that I don't want any part of a group that has a superiority complex and condems others for not being like them.

So basically I don't care what happens after I die, I am enjoying the current voyage. If you look at the initial question of this thread and Poppa's comment you'll see why I took exception to it. Once again it's people like that that reaffirm my decisions.

The Bible also tells us that there is no such thing as "nothingness" after you die.
Well, there is this:

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and they have no more forever any share in all that is done under the sun. Go, eat your bread with enjoyment, and drink your wine with a merry heart; for God has already approved what you do." Ecclesiastes 9:5-7 RSV
The Bible contains a lot of different ideas and viewpoints, and they aren't all consistent. We each get to decide what to notice and what to ignore. It doesn't "tell us" anything. We have to interpret it.

What bugs me is where was I before I was born? Is there some sort of celestial nursery where tiny souls are waiting to be born? And what about having lived before in another time?
I agree. I've always thought that the question of where we were before we were born is at least as interesting as where we'll be after we die, but somehow it sure gets a lot less attention, doesn't it?


in the final end it all boils down to** I DON'T KNOW!!**
Seems like a perfectly acceptable answer to me, but apparently a lot of people aren't satisfied with it, so they keep looking until they find one that suits them. That's fine with me, but it is kind of irritating when they insist that "I don't know" isn't an acceptable answer for anybody.

Well, there is this:

The Bible contains a lot of different ideas and viewpoints, and they aren't all consistent. We each get to decide what to notice and what to ignore. It doesn't "tell us" anything. We have to interpret it.
ECCLESIASTES-
The teacher, a king in Jerusalem, searches in this book for a purpose to his life. After various pursuits, frustrated by not finding satisfactory answers, he discovers that happiness is in the Lord and obeying his word(ECCLESIASTES 12:11-14)

In addition, this is before Jesus. Many of the prophesies in the O.T. were fulfilled because of Jesus. There were many Jews who did believe in that time- and of course many who didn't. Many have come to Christianity because of revelation(esp. because of those fulfilled prophesies)
Now, even in Maccabees they still believed in a Messiah that would rescue them from sheol.
However, after the Messiah(Jesus) came, then there became no excuse. One could be faithful to God in the O.T. days and be saved from the grave when they died, because of Whom they knew at the time.

Don't give up so easily on the faith, before you find answers. If you look with a pure heart, you will receive the desires of your heart. If one looks with intentions to disprove- I think it keeps someone in disbelief & rebellion.
I pray that the truth you reject will be made real to you. Even the tiniest mustard seed of faith will work.
God Bless You.

Ya know I never wondered too much about what happens to you when you die. We're all gonna find out in the end. What bugs me is where was I before I was born? Is there some sort of celestial nursery where tiny souls are waiting to be born? And what about having lived before in another time?
That would shoot hell outta the Gods Nursery theory. So where does that leave us? Why right where we've always been! You can quote Bible passages to me till the cows come home but in the final end it all boils down to** I DON'T KNOW!!**
I don't think we can know that much about God in this lifetime. His thoughts are so much higher than ours.
But this is a question I think I'm going to ask Him when I behold Him in Heaven!

There are people who have lived and died without ever knowing Christ. Do you really think our Heavenly Father would have them live eternally in hell? No, He is a loving Father. Hell is reserved for those who have committed grievous sins without repentance. There is hope for us all. We all will be resurrected and judged by One who knows us best. ANd then we will receive our reward or punishment.
This is true, he is aloving god, but have you ever stopped to think that if he is our heavenly father... he is a father a parent like us... We would not punish our children by burning them. Why would he punish us for our sins by throwing us in a firepit for ever? It just doesn't make sense to me. I was raised catholic and every time I go to catholic church, I can't help but feel remourse and ashamed and like I am going to burn in the fires of hell and be condenmed for everything I do. It makes me not want to go because I only feel bad. I have been studiying and reading from the bible with a Jehovas witness co worker and she has been teaching me a lot. I am not converting or anything but It is extremely interesting. ;)

this is true, he is aloving god, but have you ever stopped to think that if he is our heavenly father... he is a father a parent like us... We would not punish our children by burning them. Why would he punish us for our sins by throwing us in a firepit for ever? It just doesnt make sense to me. I was raised catholic and every time I go to catholic church, I can't help but feel remourse and ashamed and like I am going to burn in the fires of hell and be condenmed for everything I do. It makes me not want to go becuase I only feel bad. I have been studiying and readin from the bible with a Jehovas witness co worker and she has been teaching me alot. I am not converting or anything but It is extremely interesting. ;)

Christianity is made up by a lot of different groups, churches etc that all teach in there own way !

Some of them are miss guided and some not so miss guided, do not worry about what others in a building think of you, its what the Lord knows about you and thinks about you that counts :) Are there any other local place's that are of your faith close to your home that may teach the bible and faith in a way that you feel more comfortable with.

Don't give up so easily on the faith, before you find answers. If you look with a pure heart, you will receive the desires of your heart.
Not to worry, Retro, I haven't given up on faith, I have answers aplenty, and the desires of my heart are already satisfied.


If one looks with intentions to disprove- I think it keeps someone in disbelief & rebellion.
My intention isn't to disprove, but to expand. The fact that I don't share all of your beliefs doesn't make me a rebellious disbeliever, except in your eyes.


I pray that the truth you reject will be made real to you. Even the tiniest mustard seed of faith will work.
God Bless You.
And I pray that you will learn tolerance and respect for the beliefs of others. God bless you, as well.

this is true, he is aloving god, but have you ever stopped to think that if he is our heavenly father... he is a father a parent like us... We would not punish our children by burning them. Why would he punish us for our sins by throwing us in a firepit for ever? It just doesnt make sense to me. I was raised catholic and every time I go to catholic church, I can't help but feel remourse and ashamed and like I am going to burn in the fires of hell and be condenmed for everything I do. It makes me not want to go becuase I only feel bad. I have been studiying and readin from the bible with a Jehovas witness co worker and she has been teaching me alot. I am not converting or anything but It is extremely interesting. ;)
stefani1,
in Hosea-he prophesied during the last days of Israel, focusing on her sin of spiritual adultery(that is, idolatry)God warns them to repent of their unfaithfulness & return to him.
Hosea 2:4 "I will not show my love to her children, because they are the children of adultery."
1 John 5:1-12
Faith in the Son of God

1Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

6This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9We accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
By reading the Bible we can see who are the children of God.

Retrotia agrees: Yes, I accept that you believe something else(which I don't understand what that is)I pray God will have patience with you to find true faith.
Can you conceive that there may be a faith that is true for someone else, yet differs from your own? I pray God will have patience with you as well.

Can you conceive that there may be a faith that is true for someone else, yet differs from your own? I pray God will have patience with you as well.
Only in the natural. My spirit rules though & tells me it's SIN
So now what will you do? Go to the (other) religion category-or stick around to fight with Christians? Is that what your faith says to do? Well, I figure I'm not wrestling with flesh & blood any longer here. I'll keep my weapons for something important. :eek:
All ego, no Spirit.

Retro,
Please reread the original question before insulting the posters.
Thank you.

Retro,
Please reread the original question before insulting the posters.
Thank you.

I agree with you ;) seems that this thread is going well off base as to the question that the op posted !

We will all always have our own views whether we are Christian or a none believer or of a different faith, that's the fun of forums that we can all shear our views and idears in an open honest environment :) but lets not put one another down !

Thanks for the breath of fresh air Bubbler. http://www.mice.net.au/june2006/images/26-Thumbs-up-down3.gif

Thanks for the breath of fresh air Bubbler. http://www.mice.net.au/june2006/images/26-Thumbs-up-down3.gif

Your welcome ;)

Retro,
Please reread the original question before insulting the posters.
Thank you.

I've read the original question & I gave a mature Christian's answer. You don't mingle well in the Christian category because the truth hurts. But instead of letting the Bible condemn you, there is hope because a Christian's truth is the truth that can set you free.
Seek Jesus, NK. He loves you very much & is waiting for you to accept that love.

Remember, God gave us free will to love Him or not. Amen. :rolleyes:

Some of us choose to be free thinkers. There is no truth you have that we do not. There is no one more free than I. I mingle well with all because I don't speak condescenly to others. Your fellow man loves you, try to love him back.

Can you conceive that there may be a faith that is true for someone else, yet differs from your own?

Only in the natural. My spirit rules though & tells me it's SIN
I'll take that as a "No".

I see this is another perfect example of a thread involving a whole heap of so called 'christians' slamming everyone that doesn't think the same way they do.

Hope, no one knows for sure what happens after we die. Better off worrying about what happens and what you do with your life before you die.

I agree with you ;) seems that this thread is going well off base as to the question that the op posted !

We will all always have our own views whether we are Christian or a none believer or of a different faith, thats the fun of forums that we can all shear our views and idears in an open honest environment :) but lets not put one another down !
Thanks, Bubbler. I also appreciate your perspective.

I see this is another perfect example of a thread involving whole heap of so called 'christians' slamming everyone that doesn't think the same way they do.

Hope, no one knows for sure what happens after we die. Better off worrying about what happens and what you do with your life before you die.
1) And I see it as one taking on four! And what a fine bunch of gentlemen you are.
2) We choose to have hope & everyone has their reasons. She wouldn't have asked the question if she didn't want discuss it. Christians that I know don't worry about this life. They just take care of things. The Bible says not to worry as it doesn't benefit us for the time. I know you were using it as an expression- but I just thought I'd mention it. Christians can have divine protection in this life too. There is power in our prayers. All nice things in this life. Thank God. But this life is only temporal. Some want to hear on life eternal. Many religions do.

Hope12 (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/../members/hope12.html) disagrees: I totallly disagree because then there is no purpose to living. [posted here (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/what-happens-people-when-they-die-103445.html#post473393)]

I'm living. I'm having a great time. What is it you require to know about death that makes your life worth living? Why do you ask for our views then disagree with them? Do you see any of us disagreeing with you? What is wrong with you people?? Do you PM each other to gang up on dissenting views?

The incessant preaching does not turn people to your side - in my opinion it strenghtens my decision that I don't want any part of a group that has a superiority complex and condems others for not being like them.

So basically I don't care what happens after I die, I am enjoying the current voyage. If you look at the initial question of this thread and Poppa's comment you'll see why I took exception to it. Once again it's people like that that reaffirm my decisions.

NeedKarma, granted, many Christians - too many - seem to have that superiority complex instead of the dose humility they need. On the other hand, should Christians compromise their beliefs? I don't think so, we really have no choice but to stand on our beliefs. We have a standard called the bible, which does leave room for compromise on non-essential issues, but not on core doctrines which are very clearly established. When we compromise those that's when we become hypocrites.

True Christianity is not an intolerant religion, it is one that stands firm to its standard but also aheres to the concept of free will. We are not wrong for telling others what we believe and why (incessant preaching if you want), but the choice must be left to you. We are not wrong for examining the beliefs of other denominations under the light of scripture, but it isn't our place to say "everyone else is wrong" because they don't baptize like we do, can't trace their roots to the first church, or whatever other insignificant complaint they have. True Christianity says "it's not about us." It's about Jesus and your relationship to him and it isn't our place to judge that relationship, everyone is accountable for themselves.

But what you may not know is the religion the author of this question adheres to is a religion that is intolerant of every other religion (http://www.watchtower.org/). In fact, the rest of us - Baptists, Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, etc. make up "apostate Christianity" they call "Christendom (http://www.watchtower.org/library/pr/article_04.htm)" in their view, and entirely helpless without their organization. From "Christendom Has Betrayed God and the Bible":


Included among those who do not live by the Bible are the peoples and nations of Christendom. "Christendom" is defined as that part of the world where Christianity prevails. It is largely the Western world with its church systems, which from about the fourth century C.E. became prominent. Christendom has had the Bible for centuries, and its clergy claim to teach it and to be God's representatives. But do the clergy and missionaries of Christendom teach the truth? Do their actions really represent God and the Bible? Does Christianity really prevail in Christendom? No. Since its religion came to the forefront in the fourth century, Christendom has proved to be an enemy of God and of the Bible. Yes, the facts of history show that Christendom has betrayed God and the Bible...

No, the nations and churches of Christendom were not, and are not, Christian...

Thus, by what they have taught and what they have done, the religions of Christendom have demonstrated that their claim of believing in the Bible and of being God-fearing and Christian is a lie. They have betrayed God and the Bible.

As for how the author of this question personally believes in that regard I can't say, nor would I judge her relationship with God, but I can say her organization calls the rest of us liars that have betrayed God and the bible. Who is the hypocrite?

I agree with you - good post.

The part that gets my goat is that some here keep pushing the fact that since we are not like them we must be on the "wrong path" and we don't know the "truth" and they will pray for us to "find our way" to their beliefs. I don't do that to them nor do most of other posters. We are not blatantly telling them that their choices are wrong. It's like they have taken Jesus' message of love and bastardized it beyond recognition.

Hope, as I said before, EVERYONE will be resurrected: (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/john-5-28-29-a-103141.html#post472268)

[INDENT]That is correct everyone will be resurrected from their grave. That proves that people do not go to heaven or hell when they die. Thank you for your reply

Nope, it just proves everyone will be resurrected, it does not say what's happens in the interim nor does it prove whether mankind has a soul. In Matthew 17, Moses and Elijah appeared "talking" with Christ at the transfiguration. How was that possible if man ceases to exist, "asleep in the dust awaiting a resurrection" as the Watchtower of 5/15/97 states? Oh yeah, it was only symbolic, a vision. If you believe it was only a vision, that these disciples were just seeing things, you're charging God with deception. Why would God show two long dead saints that should be "asleep in the dust," instead speaking with Jesus? Is God deceptive?

Hello Everyone,

We all live a sheltered life of comfort. But what happens to those who are not "Gods children?"

Are these the ones to be resurrected to life or death?

Where are the dead according to your personal belief system until the Resurrection?

Please back up your beliefs with why you believe the way you do. Thank you.

Hope12

How can you ask people for there view and then write - >>


That is not what the scripture says. John 5:28-29 That there will be a resurrection of the rightwous and the unrighteous. Those who did good to a resurrection of life and those who did bad to a resurrection to death. Then who is in heaven or hell

You asked people to back up what there belief is and the way that that view the bible and the question your asking !

So I feel it is wrong for you to slate someone about an open question, and putting there view across.

The problem with the modern church is that a lot of people seem to suffer the problem of exclusive christianity, you would have been better to write if you do not agree with my view's or my points then please do not answer the question !

This forum has a lot of people that can call upon the name of Jesus as there savior, that come from all corners of the earth and all denominations of Christianity, I do not play the judge game or that my belief is better than yours.

As a Christian I have been apolled with the way some people have spoken and treated or none believing brothers and sisters !


There but by the grace of God go I

What is it you require to know about death that makes your life worth living?
An excellent question, NK.

One thing this thread is making clearer to me is the apparently widely-held belief among Christians that our life in this physical body has no inherent spiritual value or purpose of its own. Its only real purpose is to determine whether we get to go to heaven at the end of it. Everything else is a distraction and temptation of the Devil, who wants us to go to hell instead. To me, such an attitude seems ungrateful in the extreme, and a terrible waste of a precious and generous gift.

I agree with you - good post.

The part that gets my goat is that some here keep pushing the fact that since we are not like them we must be on the "wrong path" and we don't know the "truth" and they will pray for us to "find our way" to their beliefs. I don't do that to them nor do most of other posters. We are not blatantly telling them that their choices are wrong. It's like they have taken Jesus' message of love and bastardized it beyond recognition.

Just exactly who is "blatantly telling them that their choices are wrong" because I must have missed that part somewhere.

The problem with the modern church is that a lot of people seem to suffer the problem of exclusive christianity

Absolutely, I agree with that. And the religion in question here is among the worst offenders (http://www.watchtower.org/library/pr/article_04.htm) in my opinion.

Just exactly who is "blatantly telling them that their choices are wrong" because I must have missed that part somewhere.
Hope12 (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/members/hope12.html) disagrees: I totallly disagree because then there is no purpose to living.

poppa0777 (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/members/poppa0777.html) disagrees: We can trust the Holy Bible to see where our final destination will be. Period.

I pray that the truth you reject will be made real to you.

Q. Can you conceive that there may be a faith that is true for someone else, yet differs from your own?
A. Only in the natural. My spirit rules though & tells me it's SIN

You don't mingle well in the Christian category because the truth hurts. But instead of letting the Bible condemn you, there is hope because a Christian's truth is the truth that can set you free.
Seek Jesus, NK. He loves you very much & is waiting for you to accept that love.

I agree with you - good post.

The part that gets my goat is that some here keep pushing the fact that since we are not like them we must be on the "wrong path" and we don't know the "truth" and they will pray for us to "find our way" to their beliefs. I don't do that to them nor do most of other posters. We are not blatantly telling them that their choices are wrong. It's like they have taken Jesus' message of love and bastardized it beyond recognition.

NK,
The central message of the Scriptures is to tell the world who Jesus is, why He came, what He done for us while on earth, and finally evangelize the world by telling the story.
I am not going to tell any body they are wrong. I am simply quoting verbatim by copying and pasting from the Scriptures. I become the enemy because I remind people what the Bible says.
All of you need to understand that those of us who hold fast to the tenants of our faith do so because we firmly believe the Word of God is true, should be adhered to to the best of our abilities, and tell the story.
I must very respectfully say that I completely understand that this is offensive to some people... however, you must understand that we are not the Authors of the Scriptures... only messengers.
There is no where in the Word of God that makes any apologies for what it says. Again, the Scripture is very clear that all born again Christians are simply to herald the message. Will much of it fall on "deaf ears"? Yes! Will some become angry? Yes! But that does not relieve me of the responsibility to tell the story. What people do with the Gospel story is always a personal choice.
Additionally, please understand the following Scriptures that makes me accountable to God...
(Eze 3:17) Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
(Eze 3:18) When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
(Eze 3:19) Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
(Eze 3:20) Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
(Eze 3:21) Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

Hope12 (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/../members/hope12.html) disagrees: I totallly disagree becuase then there is no purpose to living. [posted here (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/what-happens-people-when-they-die-103445.html#post473393)]

Why do you ask for our views then disagree with them? Do you see any of us disagreeing with you? What is wrong with you people???? Do you PM each other to gang up on dissenting views?

The problem with the modern church is that a lot of people seem to suffer the problem of exclusive christianity !

The problem with the modern church is that a lot of people seem to suffer the problem of exclusive christianity !
Bubbler,
Exclusive Christianity, as you call it, to me, is doing one's best to adhere to the teachings of the Holy Bible.
Actually, I like the term "exclusive Christianity. Why?? Because the word Christian means to "belong to Christ". Christianity by definition is an experience, not a denomination or religion.
Maybe by your views The Church of Satan should be included as well???
To be a Child of God is the most important thing in my life. If you don't believe this as well ,(which is apparent) possibly you should refrain from posting on a CHRISTIANITY website. There may be more appropriate sites for you, as this one seems to frustrate you.
I will agree that the modern church has a lot of problems; but I think that most of them stem from loose living, sin, compromise, and much more.
I don't think you people can "endure sound doctrine". You would rather "heap to yourselves teachers having itching ears".
As unflexible as I may seem, Bubbler, I love the Lord Jesus Christ with all of my heart, and care enough about this lost and dying world to tell the truth. Itb just seems that a lot of people don't want to hear the truth. I hope you don't fit into that category, Bubbler.
Most of my posts are directly from the Bible. They are not my words... they are the words of the Lord . He is the Author... I am only the messenger. If you don't want to believe the Bible, or only the parts that fit you, go for it! I hope you do not find out too late my friend, that ignoring or making light of God's Word may be fine to live by... but not to die by.
Zeal without knowledge is a very dangerous thing.

Reminds me of the annoying Jehovah Witnesses that come right to my door uninvited.

<unsubscribes from thread and goes to Red Cross to donate a pint>

I am not going to tell any body they are wrong. I am simply quoting verbatim by copying and pasting from the Scriptures.
This is a perfectly valid technique to use when debating with those who share your acceptance of the Bible as the only legitimate Scripture and the inerrant Word of God. But using it with those who don't share that belief does little to persuade them, and makes you appear dogmatic and arrogant in forcing your choice of holy book on them. Ask yourself how you would respond to similar behavior by a Muslim quoting the Koran to show you the error of your ways. Would you be persuaded?


I become the enemy because I remind people what the Bible says.
All of you need to understand that those of us who hold fast to the tenants of our faith do so because we firmly believe the Word of God is true, should be adhered to to the best of our abilities, and tell the story.
I must very respectfully say that I completely understand that this is offensive to some people....however, you must understand that we are not the Authors of the Scriptures....only messengers.
I do understand that you aren't the author of the Bible, but it is your choice to accept it as the only legitimate Scripture, isn't it? If you wish to persuade those who have chosen differently in this regard, you may need to adjust your tactics, that's all. No one is asking you to give up your faith or compromise your principles, it's just that your method of debate is counterproductive when dealing with people who don't already share your choice of holy book.


There is no where in the Word of God that makes any apologies for what it says. Again, the Scripture is very clear that all born again Christians are simply to herald the message. Will much of it fall on "deaf ears"? Yes! Will some become angry? Yes! But that does not relieve me of the responsibility to tell the story. What people do with the Gospel story is always a personal choice.
Of course it is, and what people do with the message of the Koran or the Bhagavad Gita is also a personal choice, but having Muslims or Hindus browbeat you with the words of those books won't convince you of their truth, will it?

This is a perfectly valid technique to use when debating with those who share your acceptance of the Bible as the only legitimate Scripture and the inerrant Word of God. But using it with those who don't share that belief does little to persuade them, and makes you appear dogmatic and arrogant in forcing your choice of holy book on them. Ask yourself how you would respond to similar behavior by a Muslim quoting the Koran to show you the error of your ways. Would you be persuaded?


I do understand that you aren't the author of the Bible, but it is your choice to accept it as the only legitimate Scripture, isn't it? If you wish to persuade those who have chosen differently in this regard, you may need to adjust your tactics, that's all. No one is asking you to give up your faith or compromise your principles, it's just that your method of debate is counterproductive when dealing with people who don't already share your choice of holy book.


Of course it is, and what people do with the message of the Koran or the Bhagavad Gita is also a personal choice, but having Muslims or Hindus browbeat you with the words of those books won't convince you of their truth, will it?
You are one hateful, miserable dude. If you don't like the religion, change the channel.
Religious freedom. You too Skull. Totally prejudiced because we aren't like you
You are the ones coming on here because you want to harass. If this were a church I'd have you arrested for harassment. Go away! RIP!

The problem with the modern church is that a lot of people seem to suffer the problem of exclusive christianity

Our church is quite inclusive, it's a great church, and all people are welcome to come, we even get atheist and agnostic and unsure people coming along to our Friday night youth church quite regularly.

You are one hateful, miserable dude. If you don't like the religion, change the channel.
Religious freedom. You too Skull. Totally prejudiced bc we aren't like you
You are the ones coming on here bc you want to harass. If this were a church I'd have you arrested for harassment. Go away! RIP!

Very honest and sincere of you to edit this thread after my comment was made.

No one is harassing. I haven't yet harassed and I haven't seen anyone else. I just see a debate between various people with different viewpoints.

Sorry if you feel harassed.

And my name is Skell!!

You are one hateful, miserable dude. If you don't like the religion, change the channel.
Religious freedom. You too Skull. Totally prejudiced bc we aren't like you
You are the ones coming on here bc you want to harass. If this were a church I'd have you arrested for harassment. Go away! RIP!
Wow. Makes me think I should give the Bible another look. There may be something to that "Love your enemies, bless those that curse you, pray for those who spitefully use you" stuff. Bless you, Retro. I love you. I'm praying for you.

You are one hateful, miserable dude. If you don't like the religion, change the channel.
Religious freedom. You too Skull. Totally prejudiced because we aren't like you
You are the ones coming on here because you want to harass. If this were a church I'd have you arrested for harassment. Go away! RIP!

Spoken like a true religious fanatic! Doesn't the word "intolerance " just jump right out atcha? I've seen this tactic used many times by the religious whackos outside the cliunic I used to work at. If you're losing a debate then mount a personal attack on your opponent. And that's exactly what's happened here. Iv'e watched this thread go downhill until it's nothing more then a platform for fundamentalists to proselytize there particular brand of religion. The mods should close off this thread as being nonproductive and augmentative.
And it took a atheist to point this out to you people. Go figure!

If you believe in the Bible,you can find your answer there. Granted, people take what it says very differently, I believe the Bible is pretty clear about most issues. Still, we take the Bible as we want, how we feel in our hearts. The Bible is also clear about not hounding others beliefs. It is very important to follow the Bibles commands, every last one! I simply believe we spend too much time and energy focusing and arguing on petty matters, and we miss what God really put us here for! Now,it is important for the nonbeliever to know where they could end up if they don't turn to God, but lets not forget what Jesus told his disciples!They asked him what the most important commandment is, and He said to love God... and your neighbor... every other law falls under this!! So if you truly live in love, what's there to worry about? God sees the heart!

The Bible is also clear about not hounding others beliefs.

Yet:
"laurenjd (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/members/laurenjd.html) disagrees: The Bible specifically tells us what will happen"

You contradict yourself.

I believe the Bible specifically tells us what will happen, but others do also, and believe a different thing, so who's to say who's right and who's wrong?? So, why argue? 1 Cor. 8: 9 says you could be a stumbling block to the weak in this way! So, I say, live by the love commandment, read and study your Bible and let only the Holy Spirit, and your pastor, teach and direct you in the way you should believe!

Apparently YOU specifically believe I'm wrong. What you say and what you do seem to be two separate things.

I will teach you the way you should believe, please email me if you want to attend my classes. I have been shown the truth.

As far as I'm concerned the original question has been answered. The Bible is our final authority on all matters.
You can study for yourself. In reference to "turning the other cheek"- many interpret that as wrong as they interpret "unconditional love" So you'll have to look to the pros for that.

The question has been answered- there is nothing left but one's faith.
We agree to disagree. At least I do.

As far as I'm concerned the original question has been answered. The Bible is our final authority on all matters. Wrong dear. My answer is correct - no one knows.

I fear you have been led down Satan's path. I will pray for you to find your way.

When you die, you die. End of :p

Hope12 (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/members/hope12.html) disagrees: I totallly disagree becuase then there is no purpose to living.

poppa0777 (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/members/poppa0777.html) disagrees: We can trust the Holy Bible to see where our final destination will be. Period.

I pray that the truth you reject will be made real to you.

Q. Can you conceive that there may be a faith that is true for someone else, yet differs from your own?
A. Only in the natural. My spirit rules though & tells me it's SIN

You don't mingle well in the Christian category bc the truth hurts. But instead of letting the Bible condemn you, there is hope bc a Christian's truth is the truth that can set you free.
Seek Jesus, NK. He loves you very much & is waiting for you to accept that love.

I don't ordinarily defend Hope but in this case I must, along with poppa's opinion - a disagreeing opinion is not "blatantly telling them that their choices are wrong."

As for the rest it would have been helpful and proper to cite who said what, but I'll agree Retrotia's comments were unwelcome. So that leaves what, one guilty as charged? ;)

You are one hateful, miserable dude. If you don't like the religion, change the channel.
Religious freedom. You too Skull. Totally prejudiced bc we aren't like you
You are the ones coming on here bc you want to harass. If this were a church I'd have you arrested for harassment. Go away! RIP!

:confused: I hope that you do not do very much out reach because this is not the way to speak to people !


Bubbler,
Exclusive Christianity, as you call it, to me, is doing one's best to adhere to the teachings of the Holy Bible.
Actually, I like the term "exclusive Christianity. Why?? Because the word Christian means to "belong to Christ". Christianity by definition is an experience, not a denomination or religion.
Maybe by your views The Church of Satan should be included as well???
To be a Child of God is the most important thing in my life. If you don't believe this as well ,(which is apparent) possibly you should refrain from posting on a CHRISTIANITY website. There may be more appropriate sites for you, as this one seems to frustrate you.
I will agree that the modern church has a lot of problems; but I think that most of them stem from loose living, sin, compromise, and much more.
I don't think you people can "endure sound doctrine". You would rather "heap to yourselves teachers having itching ears".
As unflexible as I may seem, Bubbler, I love the Lord Jesus Christ with all of my heart, and care enough about this lost and dying world to tell the truth. Itb just seems that a lot of people don't want to hear the truth. I hope you don't fit into that category, Bubbler.
Most of my posts are directly from the Bible. They are not my words....they are the words of the Lord . He is the Author....I am only the messenger. If you don't want to believe the Bible, or only the parts that fit you, go for it! I hope you do not find out too late my friend, that ignoring or making light of God's Word may be fine to live by....but not to die by.
Zeal without knowledge is a very dangerous thing.

Where did I say that I like the devil?? Did you not read all my post's? When I said I can call the Lords name.

Just remember we will all be judged one day. But mine will be the right one. Not by a person of this earth ! So please do not judge me or my views because only at my final resting place in the after life will I be judged.

Where have I said anything about following the church of satan?

No wonder the church today is lossing more and more people turning away with the way that I have seen people speak on this forum. I would like to know what give's people the write to tell people that they are not welcome in a section on a global forum, if you where an Admin or Mod of this site then you could say this, are you sceared when people do not see things your way, so you tell them to go away and leave you in peace. I am sure that Jesus would not tell people to get out of his face because they asked a question !

I do not like this my faith is better than yours or my views are better than yours. Remember the Bible is a book of power and meaning and this is viewed by lots of people in lot's of different ways. I can not beleave the nerve of some people on this forum the way they have spoken to others and claimed this to be in the name of God !

I have no problem with people disagring and having different views, but to gang up on people and make silly claims against them is just plain stupid. None of the people I have seen acting bad on this thread have looked at the bigger picture... You are doing out reach on this forum and making people of the Lord brothers and sisters look very bad.

I will keep you in my prayers !

:confused: I hope that you do not do very much out reach because this is not the way to speak to people !!
Well, we may have our small differences of opinion on that. I believe love is what you do rather than what you say. And based on that here, I can fully recognize when the evil one has been let in the door.
I don't speak for Poppa0777-we don't need to do that-get others to back us up because we aren't strong enough ourselves to do that-but he's not here & I can tell you that your "position" was unclear when you 1st answered here-& I too thought differently about you for a while. Just my observation.
Back to the quote about me. Consider this passage if you will:
2 Corinthians 10 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
2 Corinthians 10
The Spiritual War
1 Now I, Paul, myself am pleading with you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ—who in presence am lowly among you, but being absent am bold toward you. 2 But I beg you that when I am present I may not be bold with that confidence by which I intend to be bold against some, who think of us as if we walked according to the flesh. 3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.

Well, we may have our small differences of opinion on that. I believe love is what you do rather than what you say. And based on that here, I can fully recognize when the evil one has been let in the door.
I don't speak for Poppa0777-we don't need to do that-get others to back us up bc we aren't strong enough ourselves to do that-but he's not here & I can tell you that your "position" was unclear when you 1st answered here-& I too thought differently about you for a while. Just my observation.
Back to the quote about me. Consider this passage if you will:
2 Corinthians 10 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
2 Corinthians 10
The Spiritual War
1 Now I, Paul, myself am pleading with you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ—who in presence am lowly among you, but being absent am bold toward you. 2 But I beg you that when I am present I may not be bold with that confidence by which I intend to be bold against some, who think of us as if we walked according to the flesh. 3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.

Thank you I will take your passage on board and reflex on it some what.

Please take a look at this -->> Romans, chapter 15


1: We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
2: Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification.
3: For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.
4: For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
5: Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
6: That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
7: Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.
8: Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
9: And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
10: And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
11: And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.
12: And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
13: Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
14: And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.
15: Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
16: That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
17: I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.
18: For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
19: Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
20: Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:
21: But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.
22: For which cause also I have been much hindered from coming to you.
23: But now having no more place in these parts, and having a great desire these many years to come unto you;
24: Whensoever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled with your company.
25: But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
26: For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
27: It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.
28: When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain.
29: And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fullness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.
30: Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;
31: That I may be delivered from them that do not believe in Judaea; and that my service which I have for Jerusalem may be accepted of the saints;
32: That I may come unto you with joy by the will of God, and may with you be refreshed.
33: Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.

Apparently YOU specifically believe I'm wrong. What you say and what you do seem to be two seperate things.

I will teach you the way you should believe, please email me if you want to attend my classes. I have been shown the truth.

NK,
Have you been born again? I hope so. That is the truth.
Regards,
Poppa

I do not understand why people do not believe the Bible to be Gods word! The Bible has NEVER been proven wrong! For HUNDREDS of year scholors, scientists, etc. have dedicated their lives to finding faults with the Bible. Yet NO ONE has been able to find faults or places where the Bible contradicts itself!! How could a human being write something with such incredible accuracy?? The point is... NO human being could! However the Koran( Muslim bible) and other religions "bibles" have been found with errors, contradictions, and historical and scientific inaccuracies. This just backs up the fact that the ONLY truth lies in the Holy Bible, Gods word.
This being said you can find the ONLY answer to what happens to you when you die in the Bible!
Romans 3:23-"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" and because of that sin we deserve to go to hell!(Rom. 6:23) BUT God provided a way of escape by dying on the cross for our sins (Rom. 5:8) BUT that is not enough. To get to heaven, we must accept his way of escape which is accepting and believing in him! Romans 10:9- "That if thou shalt confess whith thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
... so its not by just being a good person you get to heaven, its by confessing and accepting God to get to heaven.

I do not understand why people do not believe the Bible to be Gods word! The Bible has NEVER been proven wrong! For HUNDREDS of year scholors, scientists, etc. have dedicated their lives to finding faults with the Bible. Yet NO ONE has been able to find faults or places where the Bible contradicts itself!!! How could a human being write something with such incredible accuracy??? The point is...NO human being could! However the Koran( Muslim bible) and other religions "bibles" have been found with errors, contradictions, and historical and scientific inaccuracies. This just backs up the fact that the ONLY truth lies in the Holy Bible, Gods word.
This being said you can find the ONLY answer to what happens to you when you die in the Bible!
Romans 3:23-"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" and because of that sin we deserve to go to hell!(Rom. 6:23) BUT God provided a way of escape by dying on the cross for our sins (Rom. 5:8) BUT that is not enough. To get to heaven, we must accept his way of escape which is accepting and believing in him! Romans 10:9- "That if thou shalt confess whith thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
....so its not by just being a good person you get to heaven, its by confessing and accepting God to get to heaven.

Many scholars, scientists etc. would disagree very much with this opinion you have formed. Your entitled to it but it doesn't make it right.

You do not understand why I don't accept the bible to be the word of God.

I don't understand why you do. But I respect and accept that you do and don't try to make you think otherwise. The same courtesy in return would be much appreciated but often seems unforthcoming from many Christians here.

This thread seems to have deteriorated to the point of name calling, insults and proselytizing the particular brand of religion the poster happens to follow.
It's gotton out of hand and the mods should terminate it. Any time you get into a religious argument emotions run high. Who's right? Who's wrong? Who cares? The following statement was made by one member to another. This should not be tolerated on this site. Debate,yes! Insults,No!
"You are one hateful, miserable dude. If you don't like the religion, change the channel.
Religious freedom. You too Skull. Totally prejudiced bc we aren't like you
You are the ones coming on here bc you want to harass. If this were a church I'd have you arrested for harassment. Go away! RIP!"

Spoken like a true religious fanatic! Doesn't the word "intolerance " just jump right out atcha? I've seen this tactic used many times by the religious whackos outside the cliunic I used to work at. If you're losing a debate then mount a personal attack on your opponent. And that's exactly what's happened here. Iv'e watched this thread go downhill until it's nothing more then a platform for fundamentalists to proselytize there particular brand of religion. The mods should close off this thread as being nonproductive and augmentative.
And it took a atheist to point this out to you people. Go figure!

The following statement was made by one member to another. This should not be tolerated on this site. Debate,yes! Insults,No!
"You are one hateful, miserable dude. If you don't like the religion, change the channel.
Religious freedom. You too Skull. Totally prejudiced bc we aren't like you
You are the ones coming on here bc you want to harass. If this were a church I'd have you arrested for harassment. Go away! RIP!"
I have no power or authority in the matter, but since part of the quoted statement was directed at me, here's my take on it. I think it should be allowed to run its course. The longer it goes on, the clearer it becomes who is actually being hateful and intolerant. Maybe if if it gets to the point where nobody is being civil it ought to be terminated, but as long as it's just one or two, I'd just as soon let them show their true colors for all to see.

"Originally Posted by Kick277Kate
I do not understand why people do not believe the Bible to be Gods word! The Bible has NEVER been proven wrong! For HUNDREDS of year scholors, scientists, etc. have dedicated their lives to finding faults with the Bible. Yet NO ONE has been able to find faults or places where the Bible contradicts itself!!!"

SAY WHAT?? Gimmi some of that stuff you're smoikin! The Bible's loaded with contradictions.
If you to challenge me on this I'll be more then happy to debate you on it.
Although it won't be much of a debate since all I got to do is Google "Biblical Contradictions" and copy the Biblical passages that contradict each other and all you got to do is disprove them. Should be interesting since I'm at my best when debating logic and reason against faith and belief

I understand you fundamentalists take every word in the Bible as actual truth
But men don't live to be hundreds of years old and the earth really is older then 5000 years. There's just one rule if you're going to debate me on religion.
Don't proselytize me and don't use this debate as a platform to give personal testimony. Also I expect any claim you make to be backed up with fact and proof.


Still want to claim the Bible doesn't contradict itself? I'm going to give you a "A+" for devotion and a "F" for common sense!

Contradictions
God good to all, or just a few?
War or Peace?
Who is the father of Joseph?
Who was at the Empty Tomb?
Is Jesus equal to or lesser than?
Which first--beasts or man?
The number of beasts in the ark
How many stalls and horsemen?
Is it folly to be wise or not?
Human vs. ghostly impregnation
The sins of the father
The bat is not a bird
Rabbits do not chew their could
Insects do NOT have four feet
Snails do not melt
Fowl from waters or ground
Odd genetic engineering
The shape of the earth
Snakes, while built low, do not eat dirt
Earth supported?
Heaven supported too
The hydrological cycle
Order of creation
Moses' personality
Righteous live?
Jesus' first sermon plain or mount?
Jesus' last words
Years of famine
Moved David to anger?
The GENEALOGY OF JESUS?
God be seen?
CRUEL, UNMERCIFUL, DESTRUCTIVE, and FEROCIOUS or KIND, MERCIFUL, and GOOD
Tempts?
Judas died how?
Ascend to heaven
What was Jesus' prediction regarding Peter's denial?
How many time did the cock crow?
Who killed Saul
How many beatitudes in the Sermon on the Mount
Does every man sin?
Who bought potter's field?
Who prophesied the potter's field?
Who bears guilt?
Do you answer a fool?
How many children did Michal, the daughter of Saul, have?
How old was Jehoiachin when he began to reign?
Marriage?
Did those with Saul/Paul at his conversion hear a voice?
Where was Jesus three days after his baptism?
How many apostles were in office between the resurection and ascention?
Judging
Good deeds
For or against?
Whom did they see at the tomb?
God change?
Destruction of cities (what said was jeremiah was zechariah)
Who's sepulchers?
Strong drink?
When second coming?
Solomon's overseers
The mother of Abijah
When did Baasha die?
How old was Ahaziah when he began to reign?
Who was Josiah's successor?
The differences in the census figures of Ezra and Nehemiah
What was the color of the robe placed on Jesus during his trial?
What did they give him to drink?
How long was Jesus in the tomb?

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Contradictions
The Bible is riddled with repetitions and contradictions, things that the Bible bangers would be quick to point out in anything that they want to criticize. For instance, Genesis 1 and 2 disagree about the order in which things are created, and how satisfied God is about the results of his labors. The flood story is really two interwoven stories that contradict each other on how many of each kind of animal are to be brought into the Ark--is it one pair each or seven pairs each of the "clean" ones? The Gospel of John disagrees with the other three Gospels on the activities of Jesus Christ (how long had he stayed in Jerusalem--a couple of days or a whole year?) and all four Gospels contradict each other on the details of Jesus Christ's last moments and resurrection. The Gospels of Matthew and Luke contradict each other on the genealogy of Jesus Christ' father; though both agree that Joseph was not his real father. Repetitions and contradictions are understandable for a hodgepodge collection of documents, but not for some carefully constructed treatise, reflecting a well-thought-out plan.

Of the various methods I've seen to "explain" these:
1. "That is to be taken metaphorically" In other words, what is written is not what is meant. I find this entertaining, especially for those who decide what ISN'T to be taken as other than the absolute WORD OF GOD--which just happens to agree with the particular thing they happen to want...

2. "There was more there than...." This is used when one verse says "there was a" and another says "there was b," so they decide there was "a" AND "b"--which is said nowhere. This makes them happy, since it doesn't say there WASN'T "a+b." But it doesn't say there was "a+b+litle green martians." This is often the same crowd that insists theirs is the ONLY possible interpretation (i.e. only "a") and the only way. I find it entertaining they they don't mind adding to verses.

3. "It has to be understood in context" I find this amusing because it comes from the same crowd that likes to push likewise extracted verses that support their particular view. Often it is just one of the verses in the contradictory set is suppose to be taken as THE TRUTH when if you add more to it it suddenly becomes "out of context." How many of you have goten JUST John 3:16 (taken out of all context) thrown up at you?

4. "there was just a copying/writing error" This is sometimes called a "transcription error," as in where one number was meant and an incorrect one was copied down. Or that what was "quoted" wasn't really what was said, but just what the author thought was said when he thought it was said. And that's right--I'm not disagreeing with events, I'm disagreeing with what is WRITTEN. Which is apparently agreed that it is incorrect. This is an amusing misdirection to the problem that the bible itself is wrong.

5. "That is a miracle." Naturally. That is why it is stated as fact.

6. "God works in mysterious ways" A useful dodge when the speaker doesn't understand the conflict between what the bible SAYS and what they WISH it said.


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REFERENCES:
The King James version of the Bible. Quotes provided.

Self-contradictions of the Bible.
William Henry Burr
ISBN 0-87975-416-8




Poole, Matthew, 1624-1679.
Annotations upon the Holy Bible. Vol. II : wherein the sacred text is inserted, and various readings annex'd, together with the parallel scriptures : the more difficult terms in each verse are explained,. The third edition, with the addition of a new concordance and tables, by Mr. Sam. Clark; the whole corrected and amended by the said Mr. Sam. Clark and Mr. Edward Veale.. London : Printed for Thomas Parkhurst [and 6 others], MDCXCVI [1696].
Series title: Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1041:1.
UCSD Central MICRO F 524 Current Periodical Microform




"the x-rated bible" by ben edward akerley, published by american atheist press, austin Texas, 1985.



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A good source of _literal_ Biblical self-contradictions is (surprise) "Self-Contradictions of the Bible," written by William Henry Burr in 1859 as a response to fundamentalism. It is currently published by Prometheus Books, 700 East Amherst St. Buffalo, NY 14215. P.B. also publishes a large number of books on religious inquiry and biblical critiques, the majority of which have a humanistic/atheistic slant. As far as "Self-Contradictions ..." goes, it contains about 140 textual inconsistencies, classified under "Theological Doctrines," "Moral Precepts," "Historical Facts," and "Speculative Doctrines."

"The Bible Handbook" is a compilation of several previous works by several authors, including W P Ball, G W Foote, and John Bowden. Also, the writing by Mr Foote is dated 1900, so we see that this is not a new endeavor. _The Bible Handbook_ by W.P. Ball, et al. available for nine dollars from the American Atheist Press, P.O. Box 2117, Austin TX 78768-2117. It's a collection of biblical contradictions, absurdities, atrocities, immoralities, indecencies, obscenities, unfulfilled prophecies and broken promises. This 372-page volume will give the atheist tons of scriptural ammunition for shooting down the flimsy arguments of the reality impaired.

If you to challenge me on this I'll be more then happy to debate you on it. Although it won't be much of a debate since all I gotta do is Google "Biblical Contradictions" and copy the Biblical passages that contradict each other and all you gotta do is disprove them. Should be interesting since I'm at my best when debating logic and reason against faith and belief

Wow, looks like we got us a professional Googler here. Let me help out here, no need to Google just go right to the source (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html). And I'll see your infidels and raise you a Tektonics (http://www.tektonics.org/). :D

Hey Speechless,

The source you provided is the same one I used in my last post. Are you offering to debate the statement, "NO ONE has been able to find faults or places where the Bible contradicts itself!!!" made in a post by kicky kate?
If you do I'll open another thread. Ordinarily I don't get into religious debates
Since I left the abortion debate sites but when I run across a statement that's so blatantly off the wall as the above I just got to step up and say something. Regards, Tom

Hey Speechless,

The source you provided is the same one I used in my last post.

No kidding? Ok, pardon my sarcasm but that's the standard source for most of this contradiction stuff.


Are you offering to debate the statement, "NO ONE has been able to find faults or places where the Bible contradicts itself!!!" made in a post by kicky kate?
If you do I'll open another thread. Ordinarily I don't get into religious debates
Since I left the abortion debate sites but when I run across a statement that's so blatantly off the wall as the above I just got to step up and say something. Regards, Tom

Nah, been there, done that and it ends up getting rather pointless and nobody ever persuades anyone of much of anything. And besides, there are a lot of gung-ho Christians out there that just aren't very prepared to get into the meaty stuff so cut 'em some slack when they say something that seems off the wall. Of course there are 'difficulties' in the bible but most can be explained satisfactorily and the rest really don't matter a heckuva lot. But if you want to take one here and there and throw it out on the board for discussion then by all means do so. It'll be fun I'm sure. :D

Speechless,
I note your signature "I miss my dog ". Three years ago I lost my friend and companion, a small Malteese named Toby. I not only miss him but still mourn him. About 2 years ago I read in the paper about a little Shih Tzu that was about to be put down because Animal Control termed him unadopable, a bitter and a runner that had turned back in by three families. To make a long story short I petitioned to adopt him. He was everything they claimed he was but I've always maintained that there are no bad dogs, just bad owners.
After Bandit,( that's his name) became accustomed to being around me 24/7 he morphed from a biter and runner into a kisser and a cuddler. While I still miss Toby, Bandit has wormed his way into my heart. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I know what you're going through and how you must feel. Adopting a dog that needs you as much as you need him may be the answer.
Remember, " Adopting one dog won't change the world , but it will change the world for that one dog. Regards and good luck, Tom

Speechless,.
I note your signature "I miss my dog "

Thanks for the sentiments, Tom. Yeah, Blue was my buddy and shadow for over 10 years and I really do miss him terribly. We do however still have 2 beautiful girls to love on and 9-year old Skyler, bless her, has taken to shadowing me everywhere I go now. Molly, who is 6, also mourns for her friend Blue. I don't care what anyone says, dogs do mourn. Anyway, I'll be featuring all of them as time goes so they don't feel left out :)

This is Molly last summer...

Thank you for sharing .

No kidding? Ok, pardon my sarcasm but that's the standard source for most of this contradiction stuff.



Nah, been there, done that and it ends up getting rather pointless and nobody ever persuades anyone of much of anything. And besides, there are a lot of gung-ho Christians out there that just aren't very prepared to get into the meaty stuff so cut 'em some slack when they say something that seems off the wall. Of course there are 'difficulties' in the bible but most can be explained satisfactorily and the rest really don't matter a heckuva lot. But if you want to take one here and there and throw it out on the board for discussion then by all means do so. It'll be fun I'm sure. :D
AMEN, Speechless

poppa0777 disagrees: YOUR OPINION DOES NOT AGREE WITH THE BIBLE!
(Of course my opinion doesn't agree with the Bible, you silly goose, I'm a atheist! )

No one knows what happens after you die. Not a single person alive on this earth can tell that with any certainty. So in the end it does not matter whether you are a child of any god.
LAURENJD, The bible tells us what happens but if you think about it the bible was written by man.

LAURENJD, The bible tells us what happens but if you think about it the bible was written by man.


If you read and believe the Bible, 2 Timothy 3:16 says all scripture is God-breathed.

The reason why there are "difficulties" and perceived contradictions in the bible, is because it is the single deepest, most important book ever written. Of course its going to be hard to take in and to understand, of course people will try and attack it. The truth scares people, and people try to attack the truth, because the truth illuminates their lies and secrets.

See, now I'm upset. "How can people not believe in god?" is the commonly asked question.

Regardless of the said proof of the Bible being true, I view it as a simple myth. Apparently, when Cain killed Abel, he begged God to not let the people of the earth look down on him and kill him... who would kill him? The only people on Earth at this time were Adam, Eve and himself. And if his mother and father were "true christians" then they wouldn't even think about killing him, no? Will somebody please explain this to me?

Speechless & Speed
Here I was beginning to think you guys were going to fire up "The Great Debate" and then you go and get all warm and fuzzy on me... LOL

I lost my Jenny over ten years ago but I still miss the "Bark Fests" we used to have (they were an excellent means of irritating my wife that made the "making up" great). When we lose some living creature from our life it seems to leave a big hole that never seems to completely fill up.

I don't claim to have the expertise or education (I'm just a simple Pastor and Chaplain) for participating "full bore" in the kind of debate challenge that was made above but would love to read and kibbutz if I happen to see the question when it is thrown out (It would be truly appreciated if one of you would PM me if or when that happens... I'm not able to be on here as much as I would like and also have not completely mastered navigating the forum yet).

Speed, I'm a "fundie" but maybe a slightly different kind of fundie than the ones with whom you have experience.

I pray blessings upon you both,
John

NK,
Have you been born again? I hope so. That is the truth.
Regards,
Poppa
NK,

Here is what Jesus said.....
(Joh 14:1) Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
(Joh 14:2) In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
(Joh 14:3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
(Joh 14:4) And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
(Joh 14:5) Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
(Joh 14:6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Jason...what you are saying is that "someone" taught you the truth. What truth?? There is only ONE TRUTH, and his name is Jesus Christ of Nazareth. The Holy Bible is the final authority.
It is difficult for me to understand how you people can ignore and deny the Scriptures. All Truth rests on one final authority.....the Scriptures.
I completely understand and accept the fact that you will not answer to me; or to any other man, but, every one of us WILL give an account for themselves at the Judgement.
Please do not think that I'm trying to shove anything down your throat, because that's not my intent. My only concern for all mankind is to warn them of the soon coming end times and the need for every human to be ready. I would not do this if I didn't care what happened to people.
You have no idea of the condition I was in 31 years ago before my conversion to Jesus Christ.
Please tell me what "your truth" is. If it so great, it seems like you would want to share it with the entire world. Right?
I have always been completely open with the teachings of the Scriptures. Why not you? After all, you're posting on a Christianity forum. Right?
Best regards,
Poppa

Poppa,
Nowhere in what Jesus said does he mention having to be "born again" (which has become a much maligned expression). One could be Protestant, Catholic and still fit into Jesus' words.

poppa0777 disagrees: YOUR OPINION DOES NOT AGREE WITH THE BIBLE!
(Of course my opinion doesn't agree with the Bible, you silly goose, I'm a athiest!!)
You being an atheist doesn't change the Word of God one bit, nor will it cool off Hell by 1/10th of a degree.
Remember this one thing...
(Rom 14:7) For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
(Rom 14:8) For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
(Rom 14:9) For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
(Rom 14:10) But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
(Rom 14:11) For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
(Rom 14:12) So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Additionally, I'm just kind of curious.....since you're a self professed athiest...why aren't you posting on the devil's forums instead of a Christianity forum? Wouldn't that make more sense? Unless of course you just........well, whatever, right??

See, now I'm upset. "How can people not believe in god?" is the commonly asked question.

Regardless of the said proof of the Bible being true, I view it as a simple myth. Apparently, when Cain killed Abel, he begged God to not let the people of the earth look down on him and kill him.....who would kill him? The only people on Earth at this time were Adam, Eve and himself. And if his mother and father were "true christians" then they wouldn't even think about killing him, no? Will somebody please explain this to me?
Read the entire book of Genesis, and then ask the question again. You may find many answers there if you read with an open mind.

I do not understand why people do not believe the Bible to be Gods word! The Bible has NEVER been proven wrong! For HUNDREDS of year scholors, scientists, etc. have dedicated their lives to finding faults with the Bible. Yet NO ONE has been able to find faults or places where the Bible contradicts itself!!! How could a human being write something with such incredible accuracy??? The point is...NO human being could! However the Koran( Muslim bible) and other religions "bibles" have been found with errors, contradictions, and historical and scientific inaccuracies. This just backs up the fact that the ONLY truth lies in the Holy Bible, Gods word.
This being said you can find the ONLY answer to what happens to you when you die in the Bible!
Romans 3:23-"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" and because of that sin we deserve to go to hell!(Rom. 6:23) BUT God provided a way of escape by dying on the cross for our sins (Rom. 5:8) BUT that is not enough. To get to heaven, we must accept his way of escape which is accepting and believing in him! Romans 10:9- "That if thou shalt confess whith thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
....so its not by just being a good person you get to heaven, its by confessing and accepting God to get to heaven.

Speedball,
Please give me one contradiction in the Bible. Please be specific... including the Chapter and verse.
Thanks

Additionally, I'm just kind of curious.....since you're a self professed athiest...why aren't you posting on the devil's forums instead of a Christianity forum? Wouldn't that make more sense? Spoken out of pure ignorance. :rolleyes:

Speedball,
Please give me one contradiction in the Bible. Please be specific...including the Chapter and verse.
Thanks

A List Of Biblical Contradictions (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html)

Losing Faith In Faith (http://ffrf.org/books/lfif/?t=contra)

Biblical Contradictions (http://www.atheists.org/christianity/contradictions.html)

Please answer all of them. Thank you.

The Holy Bible is the final authority.
It is difficult for me to understand how you people can ignore and deny the Scriptures. All Truth rests on one final authority.....the Scriptures.

Well, it is difficult for me to understand how "you people" who insist that the Bible is the only and final Truth can come up with so many conflicting interpretations of it, and spend so much time and energy arguing with each other about it. It is indeed a spectacle, but not one that inspires much confidence in either your choice of holy book, or your interpretation of it.

Speaking only for myself, I don't "ignore and deny the Scriptures", I just deny that there is only one Scripture and only one Truth. I have found many truths in the many scriptures of many religions that I have read so far, and I have lots more to go I'm sure.

Spoken out of pure ignorance. :rolleyes:

Dude... Ignorance? Not very "tolerant" of You.. by the way... when you say ignorance do you mean kind of like YOU saying Jesus never used the term "born again". Bummer dude. Ignorant and intolerant all in the same day... lol (gotcha) ;)

It is ignorant because the answer was given have no knowledge of the subject. To say that atheists worship the devil is truly ignorant:
Atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism)

About the 'born again" part: that verse means that those who have never bean christians or have renounced can be included back into the fold. Those who have been christians since baptism are not born again, they need not be. Your sect has taken the term and converted the meaning for your purposes. It helps you feel superior and god knows you seem to need that.

"Originally Posted by Kick277Kate
I do not understand why people do not believe the Bible to be Gods word! The Bible has NEVER been proven wrong! For HUNDREDS of year scholors, scientists, etc. have dedicated their lives to finding faults with the Bible. Yet NO ONE has been able to find faults or places where the Bible contradicts itself!!!"

SAY WHAT??? Gimmi some of that stuff you're smoikin!! The Bible's loaded with contradictions.
If you to challenge me on this I'll be more then happy to debate you on it.
Although it won't be much of a debate since all I gotta do is Google "Biblical Contradictions" and copy the Biblical passages that contradict each other and all you gotta do is disprove them. Should be interesting since I'm at my best when debating logic and reason against faith and belief

I understand you fundamentalists take every word in the Bible as actual truth
but men don't live to be hundreds of years old and the earth really is older then 5000 years. There's just one rule if you're gonna debate me on religion.
Don't proselytize me and don't use this debate as a platform to give personal testimony. Also I expect any claim you make to be backed up with fact and proof.


Still wanna claim the Bible doesn't contradict itself? I'm gonna give ya a "A+" for devotion and a "F" for common sense!!

Contradictions
God good to all, or just a few?
War or Peace?
Who is the father of Joseph?
Who was at the Empty Tomb?
Is Jesus equal to or lesser than?
Which first--beasts or man?
The number of beasts in the ark
How many stalls and horsemen?
Is it folly to be wise or not?
Human vs. ghostly impregnation
The sins of the father
The bat is not a bird
Rabbits do not chew their could
Insects do NOT have four feet
Snails do not melt
Fowl from waters or ground
Odd genetic engineering
The shape of the earth
Snakes, while built low, do not eat dirt
Earth supported?
Heaven supported too
The hydrological cycle
Order of creation
Moses' personality
Righteous live?
Jesus' first sermon plain or mount?
Jesus' last words
Years of famine
Moved David to anger?
The GENEALOGY OF JESUS?
God be seen?
CRUEL, UNMERCIFUL, DESTRUCTIVE, and FEROCIOUS or KIND, MERCIFUL, and GOOD
Tempts?
Judas died how?
Ascend to heaven
What was Jesus' prediction regarding Peter's denial?
How many time did the cock crow?
Who killed Saul
How many beatitudes in the Sermon on the Mount
Does every man sin?
Who bought potter's field?
Who prophesied the potter's field?
Who bears guilt?
Do you answer a fool?
How many children did Michal, the daughter of Saul, have?
How old was Jehoiachin when he began to reign?
Marriage?
Did those with Saul/Paul at his conversion hear a voice?
Where was Jesus three days after his baptism?
How many apostles were in office between the resurection and ascention?
Judging
Good deeds
For or against?
Whom did they see at the tomb?
God change?
Destruction of cities (what said was jeremiah was zechariah)
Who's sepulchers?
Strong drink?
When second coming?
Solomon's overseers
The mother of Abijah
When did Baasha die?
How old was Ahaziah when he began to reign?
Who was Josiah's successor?
The differences in the census figures of Ezra and Nehemiah
What was the color of the robe placed on Jesus during his trial?
What did they give him to drink?
How long was Jesus in the tomb?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Contradictions
The Bible is riddled with repetitions and contradictions, things that the Bible bangers would be quick to point out in anything that they want to criticize. For instance, Genesis 1 and 2 disagree about the order in which things are created, and how satisfied God is about the results of his labors. The flood story is really two interwoven stories that contradict each other on how many of each kind of animal are to be brought into the Ark--is it one pair each or seven pairs each of the "clean" ones? The Gospel of John disagrees with the other three Gospels on the activities of Jesus Christ (how long had he stayed in Jerusalem--a couple of days or a whole year?) and all four Gospels contradict each other on the details of Jesus Christ's last moments and resurrection. The Gospels of Matthew and Luke contradict each other on the genealogy of Jesus Christ' father; though both agree that Joseph was not his real father. Repetitions and contradictions are understandable for a hodgepodge collection of documents, but not for some carefully constructed treatise, reflecting a well-thought-out plan.

Of the various methods I've seen to "explain" these:
1. "That is to be taken metaphorically" In other words, what is written is not what is meant. I find this entertaining, especially for those who decide what ISN'T to be taken as other than the absolute WORD OF GOD--which just happens to agree with the particular thing they happen to want...

2. "There was more there than...." This is used when one verse says "there was a" and another says "there was b," so they decide there was "a" AND "b"--which is said nowhere. This makes them happy, since it doesn't say there WASN'T "a+b." But it doesn't say there was "a+b+litle green martians." This is often the same crowd that insists theirs is the ONLY possible interpretation (i.e. only "a") and the only way. I find it entertaining they they don't mind adding to verses.

3. "It has to be understood in context" I find this amusing because it comes from the same crowd that likes to push likewise extracted verses that support their particular view. Often it is just one of the verses in the contradictory set is suppose to be taken as THE TRUTH when if you add more to it it suddenly becomes "out of context." How many of you have goten JUST John 3:16 (taken out of all context) thrown up at you?

4. "there was just a copying/writing error" This is sometimes called a "transcription error," as in where one number was meant and an incorrect one was copied down. Or that what was "quoted" wasn't really what was said, but just what the author thought was said when he thought it was said. And that's right--I'm not disagreeing with events, I'm disagreeing with what is WRITTEN. Which is apparently agreed that it is incorrect. This is an amusing misdirection to the problem that the bible itself is wrong.

5. "That is a miracle." Naturally. That is why it is stated as fact.

6. "God works in mysterious ways" A useful dodge when the speaker doesn't understand the conflict between what the bible SAYS and what they WISH it said.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

REFERENCES:
The King James version of the Bible. quotes provided.

Self-contradictions of the Bible.
William Henry Burr
ISBN 0-87975-416-8




Poole, Matthew, 1624-1679.
Annotations upon the Holy Bible. Vol. II : wherein the sacred text is inserted, and various readings annex'd, together with the parallel scriptures : the more difficult terms in each verse are explained,... The third edition, with the addition of a new concordance and tables, by Mr. Sam. Clark; the whole corrected and amended by the said Mr. Sam. Clark and Mr. Edward Veale .. London : Printed for Thomas Parkhurst [and 6 others], MDCXCVI [1696].
Series title: Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1041:1.
UCSD Central MICRO F 524 Current Periodical Microform




"the x-rated bible" by ben edward akerley, published by american atheist press, austin texas, 1985.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A good source of _literal_ Biblical self-contradictions is (surprise) "Self-Contradictions of the Bible," written by William Henry Burr in 1859 as a response to fundamentalism. It is currently published by Prometheus Books, 700 East Amherst St., Buffalo, NY 14215. P.B. also publishes a large number of books on religious inquiry and biblical critiques, the majority of which have a humanistic/atheistic slant. As far as "Self-Contradictions ..." goes, it contains about 140 textual inconsistencies, classified under "Theological Doctrines," "Moral Precepts," "Historical Facts," and "Speculative Doctrines."

"The Bible Handbook" is a compilation of several previous works by several authors, including W P Ball, G W Foote, and John Bowden. Also, the writing by Mr Foote is dated 1900, so we see that this is not a new endeavor. _The Bible Handbook_ by W.P. Ball, et al., available for nine dollars from the the American Atheist Press, P.O. Box 2117, Austin TX 78768-2117. It's a collection of biblical contradictions, absurdities, atrocities, immoralities, indecencies, obscenities, unfulfilled prophecies and broken promises. This 372-page volume will give the atheist tons of scriptural ammunition for shooting down the flimsy arguments of the reality impaired.

So that explains it all for you? Just because you "Googled" to find something to agree with you? The only thing this proves is that you would rather believe a lie than the truth. Simple Googling can arm the even the most irresponsible, uneducated, unlearned and unregenerated person for a "shooting blanks only" firefight. If you don't agree with the Scriptures, possibly you should post on the devil's forums. And... you will find more of the same when you "Google" again. How scary that you would want to trust your eternal soul to Google.

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: But the people used chapter and verse like you asked. So now you can't be bothered?

A List Of Biblical Contradictions (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html)

Losing Faith In Faith (http://ffrf.org/books/lfif/?t=contra)

Biblical Contradictions (http://www.atheists.org/christianity/contradictions.html)

Please answer all of them. Thank you.

I asked for ONE Bible contradiction including the Chapter and verse.

Spoken out of pure ignorance. :rolleyes:
Why don't you just answer the question? The question does not stem from ignorance, but of a curious mind.

It is ignorant because the answer was given have no knowledge of the subject. To say that atheists worship the devil is truly ignorant:
Atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism)

About the 'born again" part: that verse means that those who have never bean christians or have renounced can be included back into the fold. Those who have been christians since baptism are not born again, they need not be. Your sect has taken the term and converted the meaning for your purposes. It helps you feel superior and god knows you seem to need that.

Needkarma.

You are wrong, wrong, wrong. When Jesus is talking in John 3 he is explaining something that must happen in order to be saved or see the Kingdom of God as he puts it. The process of being "born again" is something God does the minute someone believes. He gives us HIS HOLY SPIRIT. Those who"have been christains since baptism" as you put it are indeed Born Again. I am clueless as to your point?? I have no need to "FEEL" superior to you. I just KNOW what I KNOW... don't hate me for knowing... lol (I'm teasing with you and you are getting ticked off) DUDE! Lighten UP!! ')

dude...Ignorance? Not very "tolerant" of You.. btw...when you say ignorance do you mean kinda like YOU saying Jesus never used the term "born again". ? bummer dude. Ignorant and intolerant all in the same day...lol (gotcha) ;)
Tessy is right of course. A "babbling brook" can always be heard.

Sorry Tessy, you are wrong, wrong, wrong. My interpretation is correct. Lighten up honey.

Ahh now Needkarma... you are just mad because I gotcha! It was the first time... but it won't be the last..! Lol ;)

Needkarma.

You are wrong, wrong, wrong. When Jesus is talking in John 3 he is explaining something that must happen in order to be saved or see the Kingdom of God as he puts it. The process of being "born again" is something God does the minute someone believes. He gives us HIS HOLY SPIRIT. Those who"have been christains since baptism" as you put it are indeed Born Again. I am clueless as to your point??? I have no need to "FEEL" superior to you. I just KNOW what I KNOW...don't hate me for knowing...lol (I'm teasing with you and you are getting ticked off) DUDE! Lighten UP!!!! ')

It seems that KeedKarma doesn't really know what he believes. He refers to God. It is my understanding that athiests do not believe in God. Also, how is it that an atheist is now God's spokesman... pretending to know what God knows.
:confused:

Needkarma.

You are wrong, wrong, wrong. When Jesus is talking in John 3 he is explaining something that must happen in order to be saved or see the Kingdom of God as he puts it. The process of being "born again" is something God does the minute someone believes. He gives us HIS HOLY SPIRIT. Those who"have been christains since baptism" as you put it are indeed Born Again. I am clueless as to your point??? I have no need to "FEEL" superior to you. I just KNOW what I KNOW...don't hate me for knowing...lol (I'm teasing with you and you are getting ticked off) DUDE! Lighten UP!!!! ')

There you go again Jason... reading things into what I've said. I did not say that you worship the devil... I only suggested that since this was a Christian forum, and you're a professing atheist, that you might want to post on a devil forum. You seem to be rather sensitive, don't you think?:eek:

There you go again Jason......reading things into what I've said. I did not say that you worship the devil....I only suggested that since this was a Christian forum, and you're a professing athiest, that you might want to post on a devil forum. You seem to be rather sensitive, don't you think?:eek:

And maybe you need to post on the "i dont realise that atheists dont believe in the devil either, and i am refering to satanists as atheists" forum
Hehe :)

How scary that you would want to trust your eternal soul to Google.

Well see here's the thing... atheists don't believe in eternal souls. If there is no god, you die, get put in a box, and stuck in the ground. Or burned into ashes, put in a box and stuck on a shelf. End of story. No soul, no gates, no judgement, just - the end.

And here's a fun link:

7 E-Z Steps to get a handy collection of Bible Contradictions and Problems - ExChristian.Net - Articles (http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2005/11/7-e-z-steps-to-get-handy-collection-of.php)

Someone want to tell me why god sends bears to kill children? Or should we start a new thread for that?

Here's another fun one:

The Brick Testament (http://www.thebricktestament.com/)

Happy clicking! :)

Well see here's the thing... atheists don't believe in eternal souls. If there is no god, you die, get put in a box, and stuck in the ground. Or burned into ashes, put in a box and stuck on a shelf. End of story. No soul, no gates, no judgement, just - the end.

And here's a fun link:

7 E-Z Steps to get a handy collection of Bible Contradictions and Problems - ExChristian.Net - Articles (http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2005/11/7-e-z-steps-to-get-handy-collection-of.php)

Someone want to tell me why god sends bears to kill children? Or should we start a new thread for that?

Here's another fun one:

The Brick Testament (http://www.thebricktestament.com/)

Happy clicking! :)

good question... don't really know... I Do know that they weren't really children... they were teenagers making fun of God's Prophet. I suppose God, who finds all sin appalling, decided He'd had enough.. but I don't know? Tell you what! YOU can ask him that very question at the Great White Throne. God is sovereign. MAN HATES THAT.. it is OUR nature.
You don't believe in the Great White Throne? OK.

So killing teens is OK? Huh? Did they really have to be killed? Couldn't they have just been "taught" it's not nice to make fun of people? Shown how powerful god is and given a chance to apologize? Seriously? The only option was sending bears to rip them to pieces? Seriously??

If that's how god deals with teens who make fun of him or his prophets, I got to say, I'm glad I don't believe in the great white throne! I want no part of a religion which has bears mauling kids for doing what kids do.

Tessy777 disagrees: sorry Dude... wrong again... John 3:3-8 the term "born again" came directy from Jesus. But you won't find it in Paul's epistles.
Allheart agrees: 1) Never really like the term "dude' and 2) I agree with you 100% - I have never read or was taught that Jesus said you must be "dude' and 2) I agree with you 100% - I have never read or was taught that Jesus said you must be ". So right you are here NK.

Allheart,

LOL! If you have never READ or been TAUGHT that Jesus said you must be ". So right you are here NK.

Allheart,

LOL! if you have never READ or been TAUGHT that Jesus said you must be " well then by gollies... it MUST be true... HEY... here is a thought... read JOHN 3:3-8.. HE says it in EVERY translation.. LOL! (yes, I am being a TAD bit sarcastic here but give me a break) I didn't make it up. LOL I gave the book and the verse!

So killing teens is ok? Huh? Did they really have to be killed? Couldn't they have just been "taught" it's not nice to make fun of people? Shown how powerful god is and given a chance to apologize? Seriously? The only option was sending bears to rip them to pieces? Seriously????

If that's how god deals with teens who make fun of him or his prophets, I gotta say, I'm glad I don't believe in the great white throne! I want no part of a religion which has bears mauling kids for doing what kids do.

Chill, I didn't kill them. I simply said.. God is Sovereign.. I didn't make that up either. If you don't want anything to do with God... that is OK too... it is your choice.

I guess it's just another one of those things I don't "get" about religion. I don't get how god can be loving and we are all his children and yadda yadda yadda (no disrespect there, just for emphasis!) and there are examples like stoning your kids and bears killing children in the bible.

I know it's my choice to have anything to do with god or not - thanks for acknowledging that and not posting 10 pages of scripture trying to convert me!

But to the original question (which I think has been lost), it depends on your religious views or non-religious views. I'm sure each religious text out there has a section on what happens to people when they die. Or I suppose you could Google it... :)

I guess it's just another one of those things I don't "get" about religion. I don't get how god can be loving and we are all his children and yadda yadda yadda (no disrespect there, just for emphasis!) and there are examples like stoning your kids and bears killing children in the bible.

I know it's my choice to have anything to do with god or not - thanks for acknowledging that and not posting 10 pages of scripture trying to convert me!

But to the original question (which I think has been lost), it depends on your religious views or non-religious views. I'm sure each religious text out there has a section on what happens to people when they die. Or I suppose you could Google it....... :)

I learned a long time ago not to pour a bunch of verses down anyone's throat. I don't even read the long posts myself. There are MANY things about God that I don't understand and I won't pretend to. I don't have all the answers... no one here does.

Having said that, there are really many Wonderful things about God! The only thing I will suggest is that you don't close your mind towards Him. :)

The only thing I will suggest is that you don't close your mind towards Him.

Tell you what, I won't close my mind TO HIM, if you don't close your mind FOR HIM. :)

poppa0777 disagrees: Upon the Authority of God's Word you WILL believe one day. I nwill pray that you come to the knowledge of Truth before it's too late for you. Your unbelief won't cool off Hell one bit!

So you'll pray for me, but you'll also give me a "disagree" on this board which will tarnish my reputation? Gee... how incredibly tolerant and loving of you. Thanks. Ever hear the expression, "You catch more flies with honey"? Guess not.

Oh, and I like it hot.

poppa0777 (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/../members/poppa0777.html) disagrees: Upon the Authority of God's Word you WILL believe one dayProbably one of the most pompous statements I have ever read here. This sounds very much like you are involved in a cult.

Probably one of the most pompous statements I have ever read here. This sounds very much like you are involved in a cult.

Pompous to you perhaps but he merely quotes the Bible... "Every knee shall bow; every tongue confess...":)

And I added a smile to keep it friendly LOL

Pompous to you perhaps but he merely quotes the Bible.
Ah, I see, as long as you can quote a verse, you get a free pass to be pompous. That may work among people who idolize the Bible, but in the larger community, it just comes off as common arrogance. You really need to come up with a wiser approach if you want to communicate effectively with people who don't already share your view of the Bible.

Probably one of the most pompous statements I have ever read here. This sounds very much like you are involved in a cult.


LOL... oh NK,

Is that your "expert" opinion... well if anyone would know pompous... sorry dude, but you give me too much ammo! LOL ')

Seriously, what are we suppose to back what we believe up with? I am curious, why is quoting the bible offensive, intolerant and pompous? This is a Christainity board... I could quote from the Book of Tessy... but I KNOW you wouldn't like that any better. LOL

seriously, what are we suppose to back what we believe up with?
Well, you could try well-reasoned and thoughtful discussion that doesn't denigrate others or disparage their position just because they don't accept your holy book as the last and only word.

I am curious, why is quoting the bible offensive, intolerant and pompous?
It isn't quoting the Bible per se that's offensive, it's the assumption that if you can find a Bible text that appears to support your point of view, everybody else is therefore compelled to accept it as God-ordained.

This is a Christainity board....i could quote from the Book of Tessy ...but I KNOW you wouldn't like that any better.
You seem to assume that truth has to come from a book, and the main question is WHICH book to quote.

Ordinaryguy,

Well as a Christian on a Christian BOARD... I quote the Bible. I believe that the Bible is INDEED absolute truth... there is NO question as to what book to quote dude. Not a one.
From what I can tell, MAN has no original thoughts. I am not interested in what man thinks, feels, concludes or reasons.. I am interested in God. I BELIEVE that the Bible is absolute truth! Period.. so I quote it... I assume Nothing...

Tessy, I have a test for you and everyone, I will post it when I get home. It's just a bit of fun.

Okie dokie dude.. why do I have a feeling I'm going to flunk it... lol

Comments on this post
poppa0777 disagrees: Religious "whackos"? Isn't that kind of characterization what you were just whining about?

Well Popoff! It's real easy to sit behind the safety of your computer and hurl insults at people that don't agree with you isn't it? You're one of the religious whackos Iwas referring to. Just go back and read your posts. I find no tolerance whatsoever there. I was "whining"?" Hey Turkey! It ain't me setting behing the safety of my computer spewing out insults and bible verses. For 13 years I was out on the front lines dealig with people just like you. I've been attacked, shot at, opened phony Anthrax letters and survived two bomb threats. All done by "good christians". What have you done besides run your mouth and proselytize your particular brand of religion. Yes! I'm a atheist. Is it your position that you're a better man because you thump a Bible and I don't? Hey! For 13 years I put people in jail that were exactly your caliber and felt very good about it. Whining indeed! And if you want to give me another red box go right ahead. A disagreement from you means nothing.

Comments on this post
poppa0777 disagrees: Religious "whackos"? Isn't that kind of characterization what you were just whining about?

Well Popoff! it's real easy to sit behind the safety of your computer and hurl insults at people that don't agree with you isn't it? You're one of the religious whackos Iwas referring to. just go back and read your posts. I find no tolerance whatsoever there. I was "whining"?" Hey Turkey! It ain't me setting behing the safety of my computer spewing out insults and bible verses. For 13 years I was out on the front lines dealig with people just like you. I've been attacked, shot at, opened phony Anthrax letters and survived two bomb threats. All done by "good christians". What have you done besides run your mouth and proselytize your particular brand of religion. Yes! I'm a atheist. Is it your position that you're a better man because you thump a Bible and I don't? Hey! For 13 years i put people in jail that were exactly your caliber and felt very good about it. Whining indeed!! And if ya wanna give me another red box go right ahead. A disagreement from you means nothing.
Dear Mr. Speedball,
You seem to get "riled up" rather quickly. This is a Christian Forum, not a devil forum. If you're so sick of Christians, maybe I can give you a little advise (which you probably won't take... ). Post on the devil's forums. Christians aren't "door mats" for people like you. I'm curious about something, Speedball; is it your nature to get so worked up with someone who doesn't agree with you? We are not going to fight with you. Also, there you go again... just like you people... trying to "read something" between the lines that isn't there. You have miserably failed in picking a fight with me. It's much easier for all of us to see why you've had so much trouble. We are people of integrity, not murderers. Remember this one thing Speedball, God loves you, but hates your sin. We will all be praying for you to get saved. Again, if you get all worked up over something like this, I kindly suggest that you start posting with your own kind. I hide behind nothing Mr. Speedball. The Word of God is the Final Authority. No one on here is trying to shove it down your throat Pal. Just because you don't believe it doesn't change it, nor will it cool down HELL one degree.
Please read the Bible with an open mind, and I believe you will be Enlightened like the rest of God's Church have been. It is not necessary for you to go to Hell. Christ died on the cross of Calvary so that ALL mankind could be saved. That includes YOU. I will be praying for you. Like all of the rest of us, you too need it. I'm sorry my post upset you so much.

Ah, I see, as long as you can quote a verse, you get a free pass to be pompous. That may work among people who idolize the Bible, but in the larger community, it just comes off as common arrogance. You really need to come up with a wiser approach if you want to communicate effectively with people who don't already share your view of the Bible.
ordinaryguy,
Since the Bible is the Final Authority, and this happens to be a Christian Forum, I'm confused as to why you think quoting Scripture is pompous? As for your comment to Tessy about "coming up with a wiser approach", there has never been, nor shall there ever be, a wiser Book from which to quote. Simply quoting Scripture... how can that make her or any other person pompous? She is not stating her personal opinions... she's stating God's Word, which is HIS OPINION. If anyone has a problem with that... they should take their complaint to the Author. Tessy is only a messenger. Get it?

This is a Christian Forum, not a devil forum.


Post on the devil's forums.

poppa there seems to be a theme here, and something you don't understand about atheism... atheists don't believe in the devil. So posting on the devil forum would go very much like posting on the Christianity forum.

LOL...oh NK,

Is that your "expert" opinion....well if anyone would know pompous......sorry dude, but you give me too much ammo! LOL ')

seriously, what are we suppose to back what we believe up with? I am curious, why is quoting the bible offensive, intolerant and pompous? This is a Christainity board....i could quote from the Book of Tessy ...but I KNOW you wouldn't like that any better.! LOL
Tessy, NK should check out the definition of CULT. I copied and pasted it here:
a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents

Obviously, Christianity has absolutely nothing to do with religion. Christianity is an experience, not a denomination or religion. Chalk up one more for the Home Team.

poppa there seems to be a theme here, and something you don't understand about atheism.... atheists don't believe in the devil. So posting on the devil forum would go very much like posting on the Christianity forum.
;) Yes, I understand that. My only point is that why would someone want to continue to post on a Christianity Forum if they are athiests. If they don't believe in God, I was just thinking they may believe in the dirty devil.:confused:

poppa you say you understand, but then you say "they may believe in the dirty devil" which indicates you do not understand. You believe in the devil. You don't worship him, but you believe he exists. The only people who can worship the devil are people who believe he exists, and atheists do not. Atheists could have similar debates on all the religion threads on this site, as atheists reject ALL gods, not just the Christian one.

As far as posting on the Christianity forum, well... I suppose there's just the chance, the small, small chance, that one day, someone might be able to empathize with our point of view and say, "Gee. Never thought of it that way" instead of "No! The bible says so!" Many Christians are very hostile toward non-Christians, especially atheists. They think atheists have no values, no morals, no reason for living, no joy in their lives, etc. By posting on the Christian forums, we can demonstrate that for the vast majority of atheists, that simply is not true. I will not deny there are some mean atheists out there who will attack Christians, belittle them, and so forth, but those individuals are not representative of the whole. My point in posting on the Christianity threads is to hopefully expose people to a different way of thinking. It doesn't have to go against god, but if I can get a little empathy, well, I consider it a good day.

ordinaryguy,
Since the Bible is the Final Authority, and this happens to be a Christian Forum, I'm confused as to why you think quoting Scripture is pompous??
Your confusion arises from the fact that your belief, "the Bible is the Final Authority", is not shared by everyone who's participating in this discussion. If we all agreed about that, we could start from that common point, but since we don't, it's not a workable starting point.

As for your comment to Tessy about "coming up with a wiser approach"
Actually, I made the comment to chaplain john here (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/what-happens-people-when-they-die-103445-8.html#post504406) and a similar one to you here (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/what-happens-people-when-they-die-103445-4.html#post477917). My point was that if you want to communicate effectively with people who don't share your view of the Bible, you might want to find an approach that doesn't start by pummeling them with Bible texts.

there has never been, nor shall there ever be, a wiser Book from which to quote.
Yes, you've been very clear and consistent in stating your belief, and I accept that you do indeed believe this. Can you likewise accept that not everyone here shares this belief?

Simply quoting Scripture..........how can that make her or any other person pompous??
What's pompous isn't "Simply quoting Scripture". It's the attitude that if you quote a Bible text that appears to support your position, that's the end of the matter and everybody has to accept that you're right because God says so. To those who don't share your belief that the Bible is God's Word, this attitude seems pompous and arrogant. That's not so hard to understand is it? Ask yourself how you would respond to similar behavior by a Muslim quoting the Koran to show you the error of your ways. Would you be persuaded?

She is not stating her personal opinions.....she's stating God's Word, which is HIS OPINION. If anyone has a problem with that...they should take their complaint to the Author. Tessy is only a messenger. Get it?
Well, it IS her opinion, and yours, that the Bible is God's Word, but that belief isn't shared by all participants in this discussion. If we all agreed about that, this would be a persuasive argument, but since we don't, it isn't. Get it?

Ordinaryguy,

Dude... I get it! You don't think God's Word is the final authority.. ok. That is your choice... but why are you miffed at me because I do? I don't think we have ever had a discussion. I get the feeling that I offended you. Sorry. By the way.. I don't simply quote scripture, in fact, I rarely do. I guess I have had 171 posts and I bet only 5 -8 have had scripture quoted. So tell me... why are you miffed with me?

Dear Mr. Speedball,
You seem to get "riled up" rather quickly. This is a Christian Forum, not a devil forum. If you're so sick of Christians, maybe I can give you a little advise (which you probably won't take.....). Post on the devil's forums. Christians aren't "door mats" for people like you. I'm curious about something, Speedball; is it your nature to get so worked up with someone who doesn't agree with you? We are not going to fight with you. Also, there you go again...just like you people....trying to "read something" between the lines that isn't there. You have miserably failed in picking a fight with me. It's much easier for all of us to see why you've had so much trouble. We are people of integrity, not murderers. Remember this one thing Speedball, God loves you, but hates your sin. We will all be praying for you to get saved. Again, if you get all worked up over something like this, I kindly suggest that you start posting with your own kind. I hide behind nothing Mr. Speedball. The Word of God is the Final Authority. No one on here is trying to shove it down your throat Pal. Just because you don't believe it doesn't change it, nor will it cool down HELL one degree.
Please read the Bible with an open mind, and I believe you will be Enlightened like the rest of God's Church have been. It is not necessary for you to go to Hell. Christ died on the cross of Calvary so that ALL mankind could be saved. That includes YOU. I will be praying for you. Like all of the rest of us, you too need it. I'm sorry my post upset you so much.
:D I accept your apology too. Have a good day.:D

I believe that the Bible is INDEED absolute truth...there is NO question as to what book to quote dude. Not a one.
Yes, you've been quite clear about that, and I'm sure that belief serves you well when dealing with other people who share it.


From what I can tell, MAN has no original thoughts. I am not interested in what man thinks, feels, concludes or reasons..i am interested in God. I BELIEVE that the Bible is absolute truth! Period..so I quote it...I assume Nothing....
Dudette, I get it, you BELIEVE that the Bible is absolute truth. But if you aren't interested in what anybody else has to say, why are you participating in this discussion? I think you are interested.

Dude...i get it! you don't think God's Word is the final authority..ok. That is your choice...but why are you miffed at me because I do?
I'm not miffed at you, or poppa or anybody else. I'm just trying to help you understand why comments like "Upon the Authority of God's Word you WILL believe one day" might come off as being pompous and arrogant to someone who doesn't share your belief about the Bible. Poppa said it to jillianleab, chaplain john backed him up, NeedKarma called it pompous, you tweaked him for it, I'm tweaking you. It's all part of the rollicking good time we have here.

I don't think we have ever had a discussion. I get the feeling that I offended you. sorry. btw..i don't simply quote scripture, in fact, i rarely do. I guess i have had 171 posts and i bet only 5 -8 have had scripture quoted. So tell me....why are you miffed with me?
I'm neither miffed nor offended (Well, OK, sometimes your excessive use of "Dude" irritates me a little, but I'm willing to overlook that). I just thought that since Jesus told his disciples to "teach all nations" about his message, you might want a little feedback about how your approach is working. If you're content to limit your outreach to those who already share your belief about the Bible, then I guess it's irrelevant how it goes over with the rest of the world. But that's a pretty small subset of the population of the planet.

Dude...i get it! you don't think God's Word is the final authority..ok.

I think you miss the point here. It's not that I wouldn't accept God's word as the final authority (if there were any evidence to there being a god). It's just that I don't see any reason to accept that the bible is God's word.

(I used 'I' here because it is my own view, but I hope I convey the view of NK and ordinaryguy here also)

Your confusion arises from the fact that your belief, "the Bible is the Final Authority", is not shared by everyone who's participating in this discussion. If we all agreed about that, we could start from that common point, but since we don't, it's not a workable starting point.

Actually, I made the comment to chaplain john here (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/what-happens-people-when-they-die-103445-8.html#post504406) and a similar one to you here (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/what-happens-people-when-they-die-103445-4.html#post477917). My point was that if you want to communicate effectively with people who don't share your view of the Bible, you might want to find an approach that doesn't start by pummeling them with Bible texts.

Yes, you've been very clear and consistent in stating your belief, and I accept that you do indeed believe this. Can you likewise accept that not everyone here shares this belief?

What's pompous isn't "Simply quoting Scripture". It's the attitude that if you quote a Bible text that appears to support your position, that's the end of the matter and everybody has to accept that you're right because God says so. To those who don't share your belief that the Bible is God's Word, this attitude seems pompous and arrogant. That's not so hard to understand is it? Ask yourself how you would respond to similar behavior by a Muslim quoting the Koran to show you the error of your ways. Would you be persuaded?

Well, it IS her opinion, and yours, that the Bible is God's Word, but that belief isn't shared by all participants in this discussion. If we all agreed about that, this would be a persuasive argument, but since we don't, it isn't. Get it?


Oridinaryguy and Cap... dudes:

We do have a good time here.. don't you think? Well, I give you some credit you at least understand more of what I am about than some. Of course, I tweaked NK.. I get his attention that way... (and he would rather die than admit it.. but he likes it.) ;)

Well, I could show you my softer more gentler side, but what fun with that be? ;)

I don't think it is pompous when the scripture is quoted. I do think wisdom is needed here. I wouldn't respond to someone who is obviously irritated with Every Knee shall bow kind of thing. I don't think I am guilty of that. Check out my posts though and feel free to correct me if I did.

I wouldn't go to a Muslim Board. I agree, anything from the Koran, I would find fault with. So I don't go there and argue my faith. But if I DID, and they quoted the Koran, I wouldn't find it pompous... I would EXPECT it. Since it is their foundation!

I have faith... that is the reason I believe. I can't give you my faith and I can't prove the Bible is true.. it is ALL about faith and it isn't my job.. that is where the Holy Spirit comes in. BUT I can make a good argument every now and again. :)

It's not quoting the bible which is seen as pompous, it's the way the scripture is used to "show" someone they are wrong. If you want to quote the bible to support your opinion, fine. If there is a debate over what the bible says about bears killing children (sorry, I just can't get over that) use all the scripture you want. But to quote the bible or use religious rhetoric to say someone WILL do something is pompous and rude. It's similar if I said "One day you WILL realize you are wrong and you will feel silly you wasted your life praying to a false god!" That too, is a pompous and rude statement. It doesn't matter if I believe it or not, it's rude to attack someone in that manner. I'm sure if I gave any Christian on this board a disagree which said that I'd be run out of here, yet it's OK if it's done the other way around.

"My only point is that why would someone want to continue to post on a Christianity Forum if they are athiests. If they don't believe in God, I was just thinking they may believe in the dirty devil."
Good question by "Pop-my Cork". I'll answer it as best I can. I post on a Christian site because your-alls world is so black and white. The bible said it! I believe it, etc" No room foir question or any kind of discussion, unless it agrees with scripture. You all have so many off-the -wall beliefs. One expert on this board informed me, in all seriousness , that the earth was only less the 6000 years old and the dinosaur bones were placed there by the devil to confuse us. Now, who can resist tossing a few "zingers" into a flat statement such as that? People like popover are fun to tweek. In short you "fundies" (and you know who you are) put the FUN in Fundamentalism
I would post over on "The Dirty Devil Board" except fundies are much more fun to play with. Ya want " Absolute Truth" ?? Here goes mine, " religion began when the first priest met the first fool." Now THERE'S absolute truth!!

I think you miss the point here. It's not that I wouldn't accept God's word as the final authority (if there were any evidence to there being a god). It's just that I don't see any reason to accept that the bible is God's word.

(I used 'I' here because it is my own view, but I hope I convey the view of NK and ordinaryguy here also)
Then I have to ask why you post on a Christian forum? I'll give you an example... I don't believe in flying saucers, little green men, etc. etc. SOooooo, I don't post on those kind of forums. It would be pointless and a big waste of time... unless of course my agenda was to only quibble with people. If you are looking for people to "prove" our beliefs to you, it won't happen because first, you must have at least a "willing" person with an open mind. I was hopeful when I began posting on a Christian forum that I wouldn't run into this. I was wrong, but you must understand that it doesn't make any difference whether you accept the Word of God as God's will for mankind or not... that will not change the fact that it is. No sir, not a chance.
God does not attempt to prove his existence. We either do or we don't. It's that simple.
I'm going to venture a guess that you would like to see absolute scientific proof of all of this. I don't think you will, as accepting God and His Bible is purely an act of blind faith. Period.
Additionally, please understand that every born again Christian has a duty to spread the gospel news. We are very much aware that a very large percentage of people will not accept it, but that does not relieve us of the command to do so.
You will see by my posts that I seem to be intolerant of other's views at times... I've even disagreed with Tessy. That's because her and I have somewhat different views on some subjects... even as you in the scientific community. The fact that we are unwavering in our faith, as some of you have pointed out, is a compliment, even though I'm sure some of you didn't intend it to be.
Finally, I will go on record saying that I am proud to be a Christian, and that I am strong in what I believe... The entire Word of God. This strong faith is what helps to keep me from wavering. God bless each of you.:cool:
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I post here because the people who post here often misrepresent scientific understanding. If they make a mistake, I will correct them. I'm sure none of you wish to be ignorant.

I am also interested in questioning and learning about the beliefs of others. I hope that is not a problem.

It's not quoting the bible which is seen as pompous, it's the way the scripture is used to "show" someone they are wrong. If you want to quote the bible to support your opinion, fine. If there is a debate over what the bible says about bears killing children (sorry, I just can't get over that) use all the scripture you want. But to quote the bible or use religious rhetoric to say someone WILL do something is pompous and rude. It's similar if I said "One day you WILL realize you are wrong and you will feel silly you wasted your life praying to a false god!" That too, is a pompous and rude statement. It doesn't matter if I believe it or not, it's rude to attack someone in that manner. I'm sure if I gave any Christian on this board a disagree which said that I'd be run out of here, yet it's ok if it's done the other way around.
Jillianleab,
I understand what you're saying... it's just that for me there is no turning to the left or to the right. I would consider that compromise, and I am not going to compromise. Do I sometimes come on too strong? Probably, but you have no idea what God pulled me out of 32 years ago.:)

Pop-My-Zit, You asked me why I post on Christian chat rooms and I gave you my answer. You asked,
"My only point is that why would someone want to continue to post on a Christianity Forum if they are athiests. If they don't believe in God, I was just thinking they may believe in the dirty devil."

Good question by "Pop-my Cork". I'll answer it as best I can. I post on a Christian site because your-alls world is so black and white. The bible said it! I believe it, etc" No room foir question or any kind of discussion, unless it agrees with scripture. You all have so many off-the -wall beliefs. One expert on this board informed me, in all seriousness , that the earth was only less the 6000 years old and the dinosaur bones were placed there by the devil to confuse us. Now, who can resist tossing a few "zingers" into a flat statement such as that? People like popover are fun to tweek. In short you "fundies" (and you know who you are) put the FUN in Fundamentalism
I would post over on "The Dirty Devil Board" except fundies are much more fun to play with. Ya want " Absolute Truth" ?? Here goes mine, " religion began when the first priest met the first fool." Now THERE'S absolute truth!!

And your response was,
poppa0777 disagrees: Go take a nerve pill... you're not
What a wimpy response! I'm not what?? Come on sport! You can do better then that if you try. Mama won't letcha come out and play with the big kids? Afraid we'll infest you with the two things that religion rejects? Reason and logic.

poppa my intention is not to make anyone compromise their beliefs. Your religion works for you and I respect that. My lack of religion works for me. I ask for the same respect. That is why when you go about posting comments which tell people what they WILL do in the future it is very rude. I do not know what led you to god and you don't know what led me from him. But consider this: maybe you don't give YOURSELF enough credit for pulling yourself out of whatever horrible life you had 32 years ago. I do not wish to turn you into an atheist, I simply wish for you (and other fundies like you) to respect people's differences and acknowledge that not everyone believes as you do. Perhaps you could consider that I haven't "found my way yet" and you can hope and pray that I do, but there's no need to tell me what I WILL do someday. You have no way to know what I will or will not do. In your world, only god knows that for sure, right? But go ahead, pray for me. I will hope that one day you come to understand Jesus and god are not the solution for EVERYONE. I understand it is your "duty" to try and get other people to follow Jesus, but don't you think you could do that to people who are actually looking for a change in their spiritual beliefs? What you do by throwing scripture in a non-believer's face is drive them FURTHER for the acceptance of god, which is contrary to your intention. If someone posted here looking for spiritual guidance you can jump all over them with you bible-speak, but until I post that I am unhappy with my current path, I ask that you refrain for trying to convert me. I can tell you with absolute certainty you have as much of a chance at turning me into a Christian as I have at turning you into an atheist.

You keep asking why non-Christians post on this board, and I gave an answer a few posts back. But in addition to that, I admit, I'm fascinated by human psychology and sociology, and observing and interacting with religions people lets me get a clearer view of such things. I find religion so hard to understand because of what I see as clear contradictions and it makes me wonder how anyone can believe such things (still waiting on the bears killing children thing, btw).

I think if you would step back for just a moment you could probably learn a lot from non-Christians. You don't have to accept our views as your own to understand where we come from and why we believe the things we do. All you have to do is have empathy and a little respect for others.

Well, i could show you my softer more gentler side, but what fun with that be? ;)
Eeeww, that would just be creepy! I've come to enjoy your prickly argumentative side so much that the whole notion of a softer gentler Tessy puts me in a state of extreme cognitive dissonance. If you were that way habitually, I might have to give your religious views a more serious look.

I don't think it is pompous when the scripture is quoted.
I agree that it's POSSIBLE to quote scripture un-pompously. I've seen it done; even done it myself occasionally.

I wouldn't go to a Muslim Board. I agree, anything from the Koran, I would find fault with. So I don't go there and argue my faith. But if I DID, and they quoted the Koran, I wouldn't find it pompous...i would EXPECT it. Since it is their foundation!!
Yes, dialog with those of a different faith is so icky and tiresome. Better to stick with those who already agree with you.

I can't give you my faith and I can't prove the Bible is true..
A point of agreement! You aren't going all "softer and gentler" on me are you?

BUT I can make a good argument every now and again. :)
I'm looking forward to it.

Body begins to decompose and you cease to exist. I guess nobody knows for sure.

but you have no idea what God pulled me out of 32 years ago.Well here's the thing Poppa. A whole lot of us did not have some trauma or crappy childhood or whatever it is that you faced. Perhaps you NEED a book to help you make good decisions; hey if that's what you need to keep on the straight and narrow then good for you. A whole lot of us have had great parents who taught us well and thus we make good decisions. We do NOT need a book to tell us what to do. Please stop treating everyone like they lived your live or they make crappy decisions without your book's help. I'm proud that I had a happy childhood and that I make good decisions on my own.

It's not quoting the bible which is seen as pompous, it's the way the scripture is used to "show" someone they are wrong. If you want to quote the bible to support your opinion, fine. If there is a debate over what the bible says about bears killing children (sorry, I just can't get over that) use all the scripture you want. But to quote the bible or use religious rhetoric to say someone WILL do something is pompous and rude. It's similar if I said "One day you WILL realize you are wrong and you will feel silly you wasted your life praying to a false god!" That too, is a pompous and rude statement. It doesn't matter if I believe it or not, it's rude to attack someone in that manner. I'm sure if I gave any Christian on this board a disagree which said that I'd be run out of here, yet it's ok if it's done the other way around.

Jill,

Yes, I understood the FIRST time.. my point is. I said that I didn't use scripture to show someone where they are wrong unless I am talking to a fellow christian who I believe has doctrine issues. I get that not everyone believes the Bible and doing that is a waste of time. However, if you come in to a Christian board and say this or that is in the Bible and it isn't... Well, I may argue with you a bit. The difference between us? I don't care if people say to me... you are silly and wasting your time praying to a false God. That kind of thing doesn't bother me in the least. (I know not everyone is like that.) I believe what I believe... I'm in a Christian forum and I'm not somewhere else trying to push Jesus down someone's throat. What I DO find amusing though, is the atheists that come in here and get all offended.! To them I say... Hey it is really easy, just go to the top of the Ask me help desk and click on home... find another topic THAT DOESN'T STRING YOUR BEAN... loll

And I never have understood the big deal with the red marks anyway... when it is all said and done.. do we get a prize for not getting them.?

Tessy how wonderful that you "got it" the first time, but that was the first time I said anything about quoting the bible being pompous. Read carefully and you will notice the comment I was referring to was not one you had made. I'm not arguing about the bible saying this or that, I'm actually not arguing anything. I'm simply saying I think it is pompous to throw scripture at someone who does not share your beliefs. I never said you were guilty of such things. Also, you are making an assumption that I care, or am offended by what is said to me in these threads; I'm not. Call me a heathen, tell me I'm going to hell, it doesn't matter to me. I'm as secure in my beliefs as you are in yours. Telling me I WILL accept the word of god or whatever, or that I WILL go to hell has no effect on me, except to think, "Gee, what a pompous a** who can't accept that others believe differently!" I can think someone is pompous without being offended, in case you didn't know. If you would like to point out where you think I was "offended" by something someone said, I'll be happy to explain to you why you are wrong. You seem to be under the impression people are offended very easily, and I believe you are mistaken in most cases.

The "disagrees" given on this board are meaningless, but their intention is to let new users judge how valuable they think the advice given is. That is why it is incorrect and rude to give a "disagree" to someone who has expressed an opinion.

Pop-My-Zit, You asked me why I post on Christian chat rooms and I gave you my answer. You asked,
"My only point is that why would someone want to continue to post on a Christianity Forum if they are athiests. If they don't believe in God, I was just thinking they may believe in the dirty devil."

Good question by "Pop-my Cork". I'll answer it as best I can. I post on a Christian site because your-alls world is so black and white. The bible said it! I believe it, ect" No room foir question or any kind of discussion, unless it agrees with scripture. You all have so many off-the -wall beliefs. One expert on this board informed me, in all seriousness , that the earth was only less the 6000 years old and the dinosaur bones were placed there by the devil to confuse us. Now, who can resist tossing a few "zingers" into a flat statement such as that? People like popover are fun to tweek. In short you "fundies" (and you know who you are) put the FUN in Fundamentalism
I would post over on "The Dirty Devil Board" except fundies are much more fun to play with. Ya want " Absolute Truth" ?? Here goes mine, " religion began when the first priest met the first fool." Now THERE'S absolute truth!!!

And your response was,
poppa0777 disagrees: Go take a nerve pill...you're not
What a wimpy response! I'm not what??? Come on sport! You can do better then that if you try. Mama won't letcha come out and play with the big kids?? Afraid we'll infest you with the two things that religion rejects? Reason and logic.
Dear Mr. Speedball,
Being a human being, I made a mistake and hit the wrong key while typing my response to you. I am not going to argue with you, I'm not going to "come out and play", because I'm not playing. I would have thought that someone of your age would have more on his mind than "play". If you are 80 years old you should be making serious plans for what comes next for you. This is really sad.The eternal soul of a man is far more precious than to "play' with. I truly hope you resolve that issue before your death. God bless you. :confused:

Jill,
Okie dokie. I guess we will agree to disagree. I don't see anything pompus about posting scripture on a Christain board. It is what I would expect to find if I were an atheist. I do think there are times when it is appropriate and times when it isn't. I totally get that you can think something is pompus and not get offended. I think it all the time and I never said YOU got offended and said SOME atheists do.

Tessy you seem to not understand something: the problem is not quoting scripture. Posting scripture does not make one pompous. What makes one who quotes scripture pompous is when the individual does so with the intent to "convert" or "prove" something that the recipient will not respond to. Quote all the scripture you want, but if you do it inappropriately, don't be surprised when you are considered pompous. But you say you don't care what people say to you, so why do you care if people call you pompous, intolerant, etc? Perhaps you are trying to convince yourself, rather than others?


I never said YOU got offended and said SOME atheists do.

Actually, what you said was :


The difference between us? I don't care if people say to me... you are silly and wasting your time praying to a false God. That kind of thing doesn't bother me in the least.

Which indicates YOU do not get offended but I do ("The difference between us" is a dead giveaway).

Jill,
I don't care if people call me pompous, Actually, I have NEVER been called pompous. I was called intolerant. I was just curious as to why I was called that. I never did get a straight answer from the person who gave me the dreaded "red" mark when he called me that.. lol. I don't think he knows.

Here is a question for you Jill, and I actually have thought about this a lot lately. If you are an atheist, why do you care that God allowed bears to kill teenagers? You say you don't think the Word of God is true and you don't get offended by it because it isn't true. And yet... it appears to string your bean? Why?

Great question, Tessy, and one I'm more than happy to answer.

My "bean is strung" because passages like that one indicate god is NOT forgiving or loving (at least not all the time). That particular passage, if I'm correct, has god sending bears to kill a group of teens (the versions I read don't specify teen, but maybe I haven't looked closely enough) because they made fun of someone. To me, it doesn't matter WHO they made fun of; they were ripped apart by bears for childish behavior instead of being taught that that behavior is inappropriate and hurtful. I'm sure in your youth (and perhaps adulthood) you have made fun of someone. How horrible would it be if a bear ripped your brain out of your nose because of youthful indiscretion, at god's hand? When this passage was pointed out to my husband's coworker, he said, "They were wicked, they deserved it." I was appalled! How can someone who preaches love, acceptance, tolerance and so on say that a child deserved to be MAULED BY A BEAR?

There are many passages in the bible which have god doing horrible things, yet people of faith profess how wonderful he is. I find it contradictory to say he is so great when he commits such atrocities. I use the "bear passage" as an example, and it's also a little funny, when you think about it (at least in the cartoon way I picture it in my head). I'm sure you have a reason excusing the actions I have a problem with, but that's what I find so fascinating about people with faith - they will "turn the other cheek" for god when if anyone else did such a thing, that individual would be condemed and on their way to hell.

So all in all, there are a lot of things in the bible I don't understand, and I have a hard time seeing how a reasonable person can follow someone/something which has done so many terrible things. I guess I don't think "the good outweighs the bad" or "the ends justify the means" in this case.

I have a whole list of passages which confuse me and make me say, "How can anyone put their faith into this?"

Great question, Tessy, and one I'm more than happy to answer.

My "bean is strung" because passages like that one indicate god is NOT forgiving or loving (at least not all the time). That particular passage, if I'm correct, has god sending bears to kill a group of teens (the versions I read don't specify teen, but maybe I haven't looked closely enough) because they made fun of someone. To me, it doesn't matter WHO they made fun of; they were ripped apart by bears for childish behavior instead of being taught that that behavior is inappropriate and hurtful. I'm sure in your youth (and perhaps adulthood) you have made fun of someone. How horrible would it be if a bear ripped your brain out of your nose because of youthful indiscretion, at god's hand? When this passage was pointed out to my husband's coworker, he said, "They were wicked, they deserved it." I was appalled! How can someone who preaches love, acceptance, tolerance and so on say that a child deserved to be MAULED BY A BEAR?

There are many passages in the bible which have god doing horrible things, yet people of faith profess how wonderful he is. I find it contradictory to say he is so great when he commits such atrocities. I use the "bear passage" as an example, and it's also a little funny, when you think about it (at least in the cartoon way I picture it in my head). I'm sure you have a reason excusing the actions I have a problem with, but that's what I find so fascinating about people with faith - they will "turn the other cheek" for god when if anyone else did such a thing, that individual would be condemed and on their way to hell.

So all in all, there are a lot of things in the bible I don't understand, and I have a hard time seeing how a reasonable person can follow someone/something which has done so many terrible things. I guess I don't think "the good outweighs the bad" or "the ends justify the means" in this case.

I have a whole list of passages which confuse me and make me say, "How can anyone put their faith into this?"

Jill,

God is sovereign and He does what He wants. That is all I can say. I don't understand everything about HIM... no one does. I certainly wouldn't say someone deserved to killed by bears. Having said that, I believe just because I can't figure HIM out doesn't mean that HE isn't perfect. I believe HE is.. HE is all knowing and HE sees the beginning from the end. All we see are that teenage boys were killed by a bear for being "teenage" boys. Doesn't seem fair but He is sovereign and he didn't have to ask me first. I'm sure to an atheist that sounds unreasonable. That's OK.

Like I said, I was sure you would have a reason for excusing the action. It's another example of that "blind faith" which is so foreign to me. At least you admit that to an atheist, your line of reasoning sounds unreasonable. That's more than many Christians (especially those on this site!) would give.

Eeeww, that would just be creepy!! I've come to enjoy your prickly argumentative side so much that the whole notion of a softer gentler Tessy puts me in a state of extreme cognitive dissonance. If you were that way habitually, I might have to give your religious views a more serious look.

I agree that it's POSSIBLE to quote scripture un-pompously. I've seen it done; even done it myself occasionally.

Yes, dialog with those of a different faith is so icky and tiresome. Better to stick with those who already agree with you.

A point of agreement! You aren't going all "softer and gentler" on me are you?.

I'm looking forward to it.

Ordinaryguy,

LOL!! I enjoyed your comments. Bring it on dude... bring it on!!

Oh and just for the record... there ain't nothing creepy about me. ;)

Like I said, I was sure you would have a reason for excusing the action. It's another example of that "blind faith" which is so foreign to me. At least you admit that to an atheist, your line of reasoning sounds unreasonable. That's more than many Christians (especially those on this site!) would give.

Jill,

I have to admit... I don't understand the beliefs of an atheist. Do you believe there is a God and you just really don't like Him? Or... do you believe that He doesn't exist?

Like I said, I was sure you would have a reason for excusing the action. It's another example of that "blind faith" which is so foreign to me. At least you admit that to an atheist, your line of reasoning sounds unreasonable. That's more than many Christians (especially those on this site!) would give.

Actually Jill, I don't have a reason. I make NO EXCUSES for God. How could I? He is God and I am not. I simply said, He is sovereign. I post this all the time... I believe that man hates the sovereignty of God. It ticks him off... or "strings his bean" if you will. I don't consider my faith blind I just think it is faith.

"My only point is that why would someone want to continue to post on a Christianity Forum if they are athiests. If they don't believe in God, I was just thinking they may believe in the dirty devil."
Good question by "Pop-my Cork". I'll answer it as best I can. I post on a Christian site because your-alls world is so black and white. The bible said it! I believe it, ect" No room foir question or any kind of discussion, unless it agrees with scripture. You all have so many off-the -wall beliefs. One expert on this board informed me, in all seriousness , that the earth was only less the 6000 years old and the dinosaur bones were placed there by the devil to confuse us. Now, who can resist tossing a few "zingers" into a flat statement such as that? People like popover are fun to tweek. In short you "fundies" (and you know who you are) put the FUN in Fundamentalism
I would post over on "The Dirty Devil Board" except fundies are much more fun to play with. Ya want " Absolute Truth" ?? Here goes mine, " religion began when the first priest met the first fool." Now THERE'S absolute truth!!!

Speedy.

I agree. I do put FUN in fundamentalism. But in all fairness, I personally never said that the earth was 6,000 years old. I asked what Christians thought of that idea? The person that thinks Satan put the dinosaur bones around to confuse us... said that was HIS opinion and He KNEW that HIS opinion wasn't shared by most here. Are there goofy things said in here? Yes. I certainly do not agree with every Christian on this board. But we aren't ALL goof balls. I am a fundie who believes in absolute truth. Am I offended because you don't? NO. you told me once what a happy life you live. We all get ticked sometimes.. I know I do. But if I go back and read your posts.. I got to tell you speedy for a happy guy.. you sure do sound bitter and angry. I know, I know... you want to blame it on all the "fundies" that you have encounter in your life. The ones that you put in jail. The ones that screamed at the women going into abortion clinics. Well, I'm a Christian. I don't picket abortion clinics, and I'm NOT stupid and I AM a fundie. Was there a question you had?. something you wanted to discuss? Or are you here to be just to be nasty?

Jill,

I have to admit...i don't understand the beliefs of an atheist. Do you believe there is a God and you just really don't like Him? or...do you believe that He doesn't exist?

Atheism, by definition, is the disbelief in the existence of God or gods.

Agnosticism, which I myself identify better with, is the belief that the existence of a God is unknowable.
Maybe I should say that I have a little apatheism thrown in too, the belief that the question of the existence of a God is unimportant.

Maybe I should say that I have a little apatheism thrown in too, the belief that the question of the existence of a God is unimportant.
Yes. Too often it's a convenient cop-out to obsess over the unanswerable questions--Is there a God? What happens after death?--instead of more practical ones like What should I do next? Or How can I get along better with the difficult people in my life? Some people seem to think that the more practical questions of life can't be properly answered without reference to God and the afterlife, but I suspect that most of them haven't really tried to do it. My experience has been that it isn't really so hard, and it gets easier with practice.

"I have to admit...i don't understand the beliefs of an atheist. Do you believe there is a God and you just really don't like Him? or...do you believe that He doesn't exist?"

Tessy,
We don't use the word "belief" Too much. We prefer facts and proof. It's not that we acknowledge your god and just don't like him. We just can't see much difference between your god and the earlier gods from other mystery religions. There's just as much proof for one as the other. And, unlike some christians on this page, we don't wish to proselytize atheism, we are athiests, not anti-thiests. We don't care what you believe. Just don'
T attempt to jam your particular belief system down our throats and tell us we're going to "burn in hell" unless we believe as you do.
I confess, thirteen years of "tweeking" blue-nosed, tight a$$ed protesters has conditioned me to push back when someone testifies to me without me asking. Poppa was just too vigorous in his proselytizing for me not to jump in and have a little fun at his expense. Sorry pop-up, but your nose was just too blue not to tweek it a little. I'll be leaving now. Having fun over here has kept me from more important tasks on this site. It's been fun, don't take anything I've said personally and Poppa, for Gods sake lighten up a little and smile more! Peace and happiness be with you all! Tom

Hello Hope:

There ain't no god. When you die, the worms go all inside your nose.

excon

Hello Hope:

There ain't no god. When you die, the worms go all inside your nose.

excon
Excon,

I agree our bodies do get worms in them. I THINK she was referring to the soul though.


Tessy

P.S. what's the matter? You not getting enough attention from the "right wingers" on the political boards? You sure you want to come in and discuss Christianity. I got to warn you... you may leave a little bloody and bruised. Lol ;)

Tessy the other atheists have pretty well answered your question about what atheism is. I think it's important to reiterate what speed said, however, that we aren't anti-theist (well, I'm not, there are some who are), but just simply don't believe in the "magic man in the sky". Or the magic man who lives in the volcano, or the rain god, or the wind god, or the... well, I think you get the point. I think Cap and Ordinary also touched on something important - there are other things more important to worry about than the existence of god. I'm sure that's very hard for you to wrap your head around since you believe your eternal soul is at stake, but imagine for a second your soul is NOT at stake. Imagine this life is all you get - suddenly other things are more important.

Jill,

I know there are important things in this world. As hard as you find THIS to believe... my head wraps around that concept REAL good. Being a Christain doesn't make me stupid, nor am I not well rounded in my personal life. (I DO care about MY eternal destiny though on account of the eternal part being a longer period. ) I actually care about a wide variety of things. And on occasion, I have been known to wander off this board and hit some other topics. Scary as THAT may sound.. LOL. Mighty thoughtful of you to remind me though.;)

Tessy I didn't mean for that to sound patronizing. I said that because it has been my experience with many people of faith that they cannot possibly imagine anything being MORE IMPORTANT than the fate of their eternal soul. I didn't mean to indicate you are unintelligent, or that the ONLY thing you care about in the world is getting into heaven. Give me a break, I'm not that crass! My point was it might be difficult for you to see that there are things MORE IMPORTANT than where your soul goes, given that you believe in heave/hell for eternity. You say yourself that you care about it because it's for eternity, which indicates it is of utmost importance to you. To an atheist, it doesn't even rank. That was my point.

Excon,

I agree our bodies do get worms in them. I THINK she was referring to the soul though.


Tessy

P.S. whats the matter? you not getting enough attention from the "right wingers" on the political boards? You sure you want to come in and discuss Christianity. I gotta warn ya...you may leave a little bloody and bruised. lol ;)
Excon,
If you are an ex-con, I'm sorry you didn't benefit from your incarceration. But at least you are being honest about looking for trouble. On this forum, we Christians will tell you the truth from the Word of God. I understand that you do not believe vin God, but bI'm glad that does not change the fact that He reigns Supreme, the Ruler of the universe

I'm sorry you didn't benefit from your incarceration.Hello poppa:

Isn't there some Christian thing about not casting the first stone?? Hmmm. Looks like I know more about Christianity than you do. Isn't that sumpthin?

excon

Hello poppa:

Isn't there some Christian thing about not casting the first stone???? Hmmm. Looks like I know more about Christianity than you do. Isn't that sumpthin??

excon


Steve,

THAT is exactly what Jesus said. One of my very favorite stories in the gospels. I KNOW you already know this but I will say it anyway... I was just eggin you on a bit with the bloody and bruised thing. You already know I'm a "right winger" but I'm not comfortable enough debating politics with you... but Christianity?. I can hold my own and you know it! So I guess what I was trying to say is... hit me with your best shot! I dare you... ;)

Tess

Hello poppa:

Isn't there some Christian thing about not casting the first stone???? Hmmm. Looks like I know more about Christianity than you do. Isn't that sumpthin??

excon
EXCON,
I took the time to read your profile, and if what you said is true about your many incarcerations, how do you figure I was "casting stones"? I only referred to what you already said. It sounds like you have far too much time on your hands. :)
Your assertion that you are up to the challenge on knowing about Christianity... I will only advise that you get it out of your head and into your heart... and you'll never have to worry about being incarcerated again. Make sense? If there's ever any way I can help you, please let me know.
Love in Christ,
Poppa:)

and if what you said is true about your many incarcerations, how do you figure I was "casting stones"? I only referred to what you already said.Hello again poppa:

I said I was incarcerated. You said it failed. Not the same thing. Not even close. One's a fact. One's a judgment. Big difference. You insulted me, and now you deny it.

Boy oh, boy - throwing stones and then lying about it. Not only do I KNOW more about Christianity than you, I am a BETTER Christian than you - and I'm an atheist.

excon

When we die we go some place where we can haunt the living daylights out of people

Tessy, why do christian nuns only wear black from head to toe? Why can't they show their hair or their legs or their arms? Why does Jesus's mom always have her hair covered?

I will only advise that you get it out of your head and into your heart... and you'll never have to worry about being incarcerated again.

Because there are no Christians in jail?

Great question, Tessy, and one I'm more than happy to answer.

My "bean is strung" because passages like that one indicate god is NOT forgiving or loving (at least not all the time). That particular passage, if I'm correct, has god sending bears to kill a group of teens (the versions I read don't specify teen, but maybe I haven't looked closely enough) because they made fun of someone. To me, it doesn't matter WHO they made fun of; they were ripped apart by bears for childish behavior instead of being taught that that behavior is inappropriate and hurtful. I'm sure in your youth (and perhaps adulthood) you have made fun of someone. How horrible would it be if a bear ripped your brain out of your nose because of youthful indiscretion, at god's hand? When this passage was pointed out to my husband's coworker, he said, "They were wicked, they deserved it." I was appalled! How can someone who preaches love, acceptance, tolerance and so on say that a child deserved to be MAULED BY A BEAR?

There are many passages in the bible which have god doing horrible things, yet people of faith profess how wonderful he is. I find it contradictory to say he is so great when he commits such atrocities. I use the "bear passage" as an example, and it's also a little funny, when you think about it (at least in the cartoon way I picture it in my head). I'm sure you have a reason excusing the actions I have a problem with, but that's what I find so fascinating about people with faith - they will "turn the other cheek" for god when if anyone else did such a thing, that individual would be condemed and on their way to hell.

So all in all, there are a lot of things in the bible I don't understand, and I have a hard time seeing how a reasonable person can follow someone/something which has done so many terrible things. I guess I don't think "the good outweighs the bad" or "the ends justify the means" in this case.

I have a whole list of passages which confuse me and make me say, "How can anyone put their faith into this?"


My husband and I have had similar discussions when discussing the subject of religion. It makes their god out to be something to be feared that if you piss HIM off, you had better watch out. What? Does that make me more compassionate then the christian god being that no matter what my children did wrong I would never want to see something so horrible happen to them? I love my children unconditionally. Even if they were to come out as homosexuals, or wose - a jock :eek: ! I'd still love and accept my child. Even if my child disowned me, and said horrible things to me and hurt my feelings - that is MY child. I would never cast my child into a horrible place of fire to burn for all eternity. I love my child too much to make/watch them suffer.. . So since "God" obviously does not mind seeing such horrible things done or doing such things to "His" children, would that make the parent full of unconditional love more compassionate, loving, and understanding then "God"? And if so, how does this make sense? How can you then go and say "God is good"... Things like this just do not make sense to me. And I really do want to at least UNDERSTAND how one accepts this as "good" and all powerful, all loving and kind, because flooding the earth was not kind to most of "Gods children" either.

tessy, why do christian nuns only wear black from head to toe? why can't they show their hair or their legs or their arms? why does Jesus's mom always have her hair covered?
Mario,

I am not Catholic so I don't know... maybe allheart would like to be the better person to ask. No one really knows what Mary the mother of Jesus looks like. It was the Jewish culture back then for women to cover their heads so she probably did.

My husband and I have had similar discussions when discussing the subject of religion. It makes their god out to be something to be feared that if you piss HIM off, you had better watch out. What? Does that make me more compassionate then the christian god being that no matter what my children did wrong I would never want to see something so horrible happen to them? I love my children unconditionally. Even if they were to come out as homosexuals, or wose - a jock :eek: ! I'd still love and accept my child. Even if my child disowned me, and said horrible things to me and hurt my feelings - that is MY child. I would never cast my child into a horrible place of fire to burn for all eternity. I love my child too much to make/watch them suffer. ...So since "God" obviously does not mind seeing such horrible things done or doing such things to "His" children, would that make the parent full of unconditional love more compassionate, loving, and understanding then "God"? And if so, how does this make sense? How can you then go and say "God is good"...Things like this just do not make sense to me. And I really do want to at least UNDERSTAND how one accepts this as "good" and all powerful, all loving and kind, because flooding the earth was not kind to most of "Gods children" either.


Pixiemama,

I will do a poor job.. but I will attempt to try to explain a little...

God is Holy. We try to understand Him with our finite minds and we cannot possibly do it... (or as my friend Jill likes to say... our brians can't wrap around that concept). We are NOT HOLY. HE IS HOLY. It is IMPOSSIBLE for GOD to tolerate even one tiny, winy, eeny, beeny sin. Because WE being sinners can overlook it, we think GOD CAN TOO. It isn't THAT bad we say... it was NO BIG deal... it was HARMLESS. Well it is like POISON to God. If you don't get THAT... you will never have any real understanding of GOD. OK?

HE is also Sovereign... HE REIGNS SUPREME. GOD can and will do what He pleases. Now, this is what ticks us humans off the most. WE don't like it. Our nature naturally fights against HIS soveriegnty. It irks us that HE can do what he pleases.


God is also LOVE. A perfect love that we cannot even comprehend. It goes way far above our understanding. I won't even try to explain it because I will fail miserably. He loves and HE loves every human being with that perfect love. It is unconditional... He loves you even if you HATE HIM... doesn't matter... HE just loves you! HE CAN'T HELP IT... it is HIS character...

OK... so you Have GOD... HOLY, SOVEREIGN, LOVE. He can't go against HIS own Character.. in other words.. HE CAN'T just over look sin just because HE is LOVE... so when Adam sinned... He couldn't say... "adam..i love you so much...I'm not gonna notice...it was no biggy anyway..it was just one little piece of fruit"! He couldn't.. but what He did almost immediately is remedy the problem by promising JESUS in Genesis 3:15. He has the answer for man because He LOVES US... HE is sending HIS son... He will redeem mankind. Otherwise, HE can't have anything to do with US... remember he is HOLY. HE CAN'T. He cannot go against HIS OWN CHARACTER.

People want to say... why does a LOVING GOD do this or allow that?? Well, when mankind sinned it set in motion a lot of horrible things... death being the final blow. But GOD LOVES us... HE sent HIS SON to redeem us. Jesus paid our debt in full so that when God looks at US.. HE can say... I SEE NO SIN. But that is the ONLY WAY... you can't earn it.. you can't work really hard at being good because... remember 1 tiny sin is all it takes to NOT be with GOD. He is soveriegn... HE gets to choose HOW to redeem us... He gets to say what will make us perfect before HIM.. we don't.

How do I make sense of God.. I understand His character and I understand He cannot just overlook His HOLINESS because HE IS LOVE and I remember he is SOVEREIGN whether I like it or not.

Hello again poppa:

I said I was incarcerated. You said it failed. Not the same thing. Not even close. One's a fact. One's a judgment. Big difference. You insulted me, and now you deny it.

Boy oh, boy - throwing stones and then lying about it. Not only do I KNOW more about Christianity than you, I am a BETTER Christian than you - and I'm an athiest.

excon
Excon,

To save you the trouble of going back to re-read my original post, here it is:
Excon,
If you are an ex-con, I'm sorry you didn't benefit from your incarceration. But at least you are being honest about looking for trouble. On this forum, we Christians will tell you the truth from the Word of God. I understand that you do not believe vin God, but bI'm glad that does not change the fact that He reigns Supreme, the Ruler of the universe
If you can get from the above that I was throwing stones by referencing what your profile says, and then saying the incarcerations didn't work if you're still "looking for trouble where you can find it", then don't post what you don't want people to refer to. :eek: They were your words, not mine. I don't lie about anything. I made no judgement. As a self-professed atheist,(if you truly are one) you will find out that there is a True and Living God. That will be your choice. I only hope and pray that it's not too late when you find out. Trust Jesus. He will be the best Friend you'll ever have.

This is only my opinion. Im very open minded so it is easy for me to reply to this subject.
IMO Where you go after death is depending on what you believe in. Some believe in the Biblical theory , heaven or hell. Others believe from a scientififc point of view.
Some people think when you die, you die. Nothing more. Its over.
and some people read the bible to reassure themselves that there could possibly be something else out there after death.
I've heard so many theory's and opinions in this subject that in the end, it all really matters what YOU believe in. some one who is from egypt, and believe in reincarnation, can not tell a christian or catholic where they will go after death, as they all have different beleifs. Yet both of them disagree about eachotehrs views on it, even though they think their own standpoint is the best. There really is no right or wrong answer. It all depends on how you feel, and what YOU yourself believe in. I myself am a catholic, so I can not vouche for scientific methods,though science does make sense in way. I just believe that God created out cells, mucles, bones, organs and other bodily functions. Sure the heart keeps us alive, but its our spirit and soul that keeps us going, the soul and spirit that god has given us. =] sorry if I have offended any one, as this is a VERY touchy subject.
Religious conversations are as touchy as abortion/no abortion conversations, every one will have a different belief or view, though some will sound much like some one else's, and some one else's view or belief may sound completely different from others. Like said above, it all depends on what you feel is right in your heart. =]

excon,

To save you the trouble of going back to re-read my original post, here it is:
excon,
If you are an ex-con, I'm sorry you didn't benefit from your incarceration. But at least you are being honest about looking for trouble. On this forum, we Christians will tell you the truth from the Word of God. I understand that you do not believe vin God, but bI'm glad that does not change the fact that He reigns Supreme, the Ruler of the universe
If you can get from the above that I was throwing stones by referencing what your profile says, and then saying the incarcerations didn't work if you're still "looking for trouble where you can find it", then don't post what you don't want people to refer to. :eek: They were your words, not mine. I don't lie about anything. I made no judgement. As a self-professed athiest,(if you truly are one) you will find out that there is a True and Living God. That will be your choice. I only hope and pray that it's not too late when you find out. Trust Jesus. He will be the best Friend you'll ever have.

excon,
I rest my case. Your speech betrays you. You are in for a tough time in this world with your attitude. I will be praying for you, friend.:)

Because there are no Christians in jail?
Speedball,
You speak about what I do and do not know. There you go again... reading things into my posts that aren't there. Boy, you must be one miserable person! Since what you've been doing is obviously not working for you, why not try Jesus. He will save you, forgive you for assisting murderers, and put joy in your life.

Hello again, Poppa:

Anybody who can read, knows you to be a slimy liar. I'm sooooo glad I'm NOT a Christian!

excon

Because there are no Christians in jail?
Jillianleab,
I'm confident that there are MANY, MANY born again Christians in jail. I used to be a part of a prison ministry, and know of many conversions, but this is not the case with EXCON, because his testimony is that he's an atheist. I think we can all agree that it is impossible for a professing atheist to be saved, which is the only way a person can become a Christian.
All people, regardless of their background, can be saved, but only after they first believe the Bible and God.
This seems to be offensive to non believers, but I make no apologies for the Word of God. Here's what the Bible says:
(Rom 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(Rom 10:10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
(Rom 10:11) For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
(Rom 10:12) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

I did not author this, I'm only giving you chapter and verse. If you don't like what it says, take it up with the Author.
I have the responsibility to herald the message of salvation to whomsoever I come in contact with. When I have done this, I am done, unless there are questions that arise from the heralding of the Bible, which is what has happened here.
In all reality, I would like to see all of mankind enjoying life to it's fullest by submitting themselves to God. But, I will not try to force my beliefs on anyone. I will only state what the Bible says....That's what I believe. When Christians do state their beliefs, they are sometimes labeled a "Bible thumpers" or Bible pushers", as has happened to me on this very forum. That doesn't change the facts of my beliefs, nor shall it ever deter me from telling the Truth.
The very best to all of you.
Poppa :)
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Poppa you are the perfect example of what most non Christians consider to be wrong with religion. The harder you try to be the best Christian you can, the worse you become and in the process you bring down many good Christians with you.

People like you is what makes people like me be glad I don't go to Church.

Poppa you are the perfect example of what most non Christians consider to be wrong with religion. The harder you try to be the best Christian you can, the worse you become and in the process you bring down many good Christians with you.

People like you is what makes people like me be glad i dont go to Church.

Ok, I get that Poppa sounds like he is coming on too strong and I can see why that is making people irritated.

But in HIS defense... it is HARD to be a Christian here. I can't win either. If I ask a question... it is a Ad Hominem attack, if I use my humor and try to tease someone... I'm creepy, If I get ticked off... I am passive aggressive, if I speak my mind, I am intolerant. If I laugh at a joke... I've hit a new low even for me. I can't win. All I ever tried to do is get people to discuss Christianity WITHOUT getting in their face and screaming you are going to hell... and I STILL make people glad they aren't Christians too... so... whatever.

It is not hard to be a Christian here. There are plenty Christians here that get along just fine AND have the respect of the non-Christians.

Most that have a hard time are not here to "discuss" but rather to "preach". That is where the conflict comes in.

Im sure most think its blasphemous to even toy with an idea that is not set in stone in the Bible... but that is what simple discussion is all about. Allow yourself to look beyond what has been shoved down your throats for your entire lives and ask yourself "why?" Try to answer something without quoting the Bible. There are infinite real world explanations for God and life.

It is futile to attempt to prove a belief to someone by using evidence that is only believed by those that already believe.

But in HIS defense...it is HARD to be a Christian here. Hello Tessy:

You missed it. I don't care about his religion. I don't care what he spouts, nor to whom he spouts it. My comments had nothing to do with that. I care that he insulted me, denied it, and then sanctimoniously decided to pray for me, which is a further insult.

I didn't like it, and said so.

excon

Excon,

You know I didn't miss it... I didn't like the way he treated you either. My point is some (not you) just hate Christians because they are Christians. I know you probably don't read all the Christian posts here so you got to trust me... I KNOW of what I speak.

Tess

Ok, I get that Poppa sounds like he is coming on too strong and I can see why that is making people irritated.

But in HIS defense...it is HARD to be a Christian here. I can't win either. If I ask a question...it is a Ad Hominem attack, if I use my humor and try to tease someone...i'm creepy, If I get ticked off...I am passive aggressive, if I speak my mind, I am intolerant. If I laugh at a joke...I've hit a new low even for me. I can't win. All i ever tried to do is get people to discuss Christianity WITHOUT getting in their face and screaming you are going to hell...and I STILL make people glad they aren't Christians too...so...whatever.

TESSY.
I'll see you in heaven. :p

I think its funny that your own god hates the same people you hate.

Hello Everyone,

We all live a sheltered life of comfort. But what happens to those who are not "Gods children?"

Are these the ones to be ressurected to life or death?

Where are the dead according to your personal belief system until the Ressurection??

Please back up your beliefs with why you believe the way you do. Thank you.

Hope12
Hi Hope12,
If you haven't seen it yet, check out the video, "The Lazarus Phenomenon".
Its awesome!
They interview doctors concerning people who die and then come back to life later.
And the stories they have to tell are incredibly similar.
There are also two testimonies.
One gentleman was declared legally dead and in the morgue for 4 days.
This video will give you a sense of the seriousness of both realms.
BTW: Your icon is very cool :)
God bless,
dw1

Hello Everyone,

We all live a sheltered life of comfort. But what happens to those who are not "Gods children?"

Are these the ones to be ressurected to life or death?

Where are the dead according to your personal belief system until the Ressurection??

Please back up your beliefs with why you believe the way you do. Thank you.

Hope12

I guess you are looking for Christian answers but here's a muslim viewpoint for your info...
Taken from an article
-----------------------
The Day of Judgement
A Muslim believes in the Day of the Judgement. This world as we know it will come to an end, and the dead will rise to stand for their final and fair trial. On that day, all men and women from Adam to the last person will be resurrected from the state of death for judgement. Everything we do, say, make, intend and think are accounted for and kept in accurate records. They are brought up on the Day of Judgement.

One who believes in life after death is not expected to behave against the Will of Allah. He will always bear in mind that Allah is watching all his actions and the angels are recording them.

People with good records will be generously rewarded and warmly welcomed to Allah's Heaven. People with bad records will be fairly punished and cast into Hell. The real nature of Heaven and Hell are known to Allah only, but they are described by Allah in man's familiar terms in the Quran.

If some good deeds are seen not to get full appreciation and credit in this life, they will receive full compensation and be widely acknowledged on the Day of Judgement. If some people who commit sins, neglect Allah and indulge in immoral activities, seem superficially successful and prosperous in this life, absolute justice will be done to them on the Day of Judgement. The time of the Day of Judgement is only known to Allah and Allah alone.
----------------------------

Muslims believe that we are not guaranteed Paradise but it is the mercy of Allah swt that will allow whomever He wills into Paradise.
On the day of judgement all those who wronged anyone in this world will have his due and if this judgement day did not exist it would be very unfair for all those wronged by people.



Regards:)

As this thread is becoming more argumentative I'm closing it NOW.
If you have a problem with this feel free to PM me.

Ps poppa0777 I'm awaiting yet another disagree comment.