I have a Bryant heat pump that was used very little over the winter. When I went to turn on the air conditioning a few days ago, the outdoor unit would not come on, but the indoor fan and thermostat appeared to be working fine.

I checked the contactor and it was not pulling in, when I pushed it in, the unit kicked on, but would not shut off when I turned it off at the thermostat. I had to cut the power to turn it off as to not damage the compressor.

I replaced the contactor with an identical contactor from the Bryant dealer. It was definitely bad. When I turned the power back on to the outdoor unit, it would not shut off, even when the contactor is not pulled in and the thermostat is off. I had to cut the power again.

I am 100% sure that I replced the wires correctly on the new contactor. What is the next logical thing to check?

Thanks,

Scott:confused:

What continues to run? The compressor and the fan or both? If only the fan, it could be the defrost relay. Just ran into this problem recently.You are sure it's wired correctly? Just verifing

What continues to run? The compressor and the fan or both? If only the fan, it could be the defrost relay. Just ran into this problem recently.You are sure it's wired correctly? Just verifing

Thanks for the response.

It is the outdoor compressor and the outdoor fan that continue to run even when the thermostat is not on. I cannot turn off the outdoor unit off unless I trip the breaker. The outside contactor is not pulled in while it is running.

I can turn the inside fan off by turning off the thermostat, but the outside unit continues to run. If I turn the breaker back on outside, the outdoor unit will still start up immediately even when the thermostat is off and the contactor is out. Very strange!

I wired the new contactor the same way the old one was wired. I moved the wires one at a time to be safe. I even snapped a picture before I switched it. This unit was operational last year, and nothing else has changed.

Scott

You are sure that the compressor is also running? You hear it run? You put your hand on it and it's hot and you feel it running? Not trying to be rude but just trying to help you get it going.

You are sure that the compressor is also running? You hear it run? You put your hand on it and it's hot and you feel it running? Not trying to be rude but just trying to help you get it going.

I will double check when I get home tonight. It sounded like it was running. I will have to pull back the cover on it when I get home in a few hours and see if I feel it running and it is warm.

I do know that more than just the fan was running. I assumed that the other louder noise coming from the unit was the compressor. It sounded like it did when it worked last year and I listened to the neighbors unit and it sounded the same.

Thanks,

Scott

When you have the cover off, also look at the wiring coming from the compressor and fan and double check them. Be sure they are connected to contactor opposite end as the 220 volts coming from the disconnect. In other words. You will have 220 volts at the bottom of the contactor and 0 volts at other end with contacts open. When 24 volts pull the contactor in, 220 volts at both ends. It is this end where power should be delivered to compressor and fan. I hope I have not confused you now.

Not confused at all. I have the fan and the compressor cables plugged into the opposite end of the source as they were. Here are some pictures (with old contactor). I have it hooked up exactly the same as the new one though.

http://www.shoemaker.us/temp/panel1.jpg
http://www.shoemaker.us/temp/panel.jpg

I will retrace all of these cables to see if I can figure how this fits together. When I get home. I will check the voltage at the top with the contacts open.

Thanks,

Scott

That is a single pole contactor, so you will have 120 volts at the top all of the time, the contactor only breaks one leg. Take a picture of the schematic and post it if you can.

Take a picture of the schematic and post it if you can.

Yes, it is a single pole contactor. Here is the schematic picture.

http://www.shoemaker.us/temp/schematic.jpg

Also, I have again verified that the compressor and fan are both running with the thermostat off and the contactor open.

Thanks again for the help!

Scott

You may have a bad crank case heater on the compressor. Undo the wires that go to it.the two black wires that go to the bottom of the compressor.One goes to L1 and the other to 21 on the contactor. If the compressor heater goes bad it can keep 240 volts on the 21 and 22 side of the contactor. It turns into a jumper wire from L1 to 22 and makes the unit run all the time.

If the compressor heater goes bad it can keep 240 volts on the 21 and 22 side of the contactor. It turns into a jumper wire from L1 to 21 and makes the unit run all the time.

From looking at the diagram, this makes sense. Interesting. I will go out and try it when it is daylight. If this is the problem, what is the approximate cost of replacement, and is it easy to change out?

After I unplug the heater, and if the unit is off when I turn on the breaker (as it should be with the T-stat off and the contactor open), should I try to kick it on at the T-stat to see if the contactor pulls in and it turns on?

Thanks a lot!

Scott

You got it right my man. But remember this is a test(trial and error). Yes you can get a wrap around compressor heater from any hvac supplier and wire it back in the same way. Good luck.

Did you by chance test any voltages yet?

The voltage at 21 and 22 has to be 240 volts or it would not be running. The question is why is it with out the contactor closed.

I see your point, but aren't crankcase heaters usually wired to L1 and L2, otherwise, what would be the point? It almost sounds like the contactor is shorted, Ive looked at the pictures, everything looks right...

Ok, I'm looking at the contactor right now, there is nothing on L1 and L2 besides line voltage, so there doesn't seem to be any way for a crankcase heater to be feeding voltage through, in my opinion the only way it's getting power is a shorted contactor, how else could it be getting 240 volts at 21 and 22?

If the crankcase heater was on L1 and L2 they would be on all the time no need to be heating and adding extra amps after the compressor is running.

T-Top, am I looking at this wrong though? Do you see anything else on L1 or L2? I must be over looking something, unless the contactor is really pulling in...

Keep looking check out the wire schematic he sent.

Any time I add an after market CCH ,I always install it on L1 and L2 exspecially if it's just air conditioning running all winter, otherwise you'd have a compressor trying to start with cold oil?

I see how it's wired on the schematic, but I don't see anything on the line side of the contactor besides the line voltage, that's what has me confused.

I hate to say it but your wrong the crank case heater is hot when the contactor is open not calling for heat or cooling keeping the oil warm in the compressor but when the contactor closes the heater drops out.

I hate to say it but your wrong the crank case heater is hot when the contactor is open not calling for heat or cooling keeping the oil warm in the compressor but when the contactor closes the heater drops out.

I found this at the following link. You are correct T.

Compressor Crankcase Heater (http://www.myhvacparts.com/Catalogue/Air%20Conditioning/Crankcase%20Heater.htm)

"Some manufacturers of AC equipment install crankcase heaters either in the compressor or mount them externally around the base of the compressor. The (2) wires of the heater is wired directly to the 230 Volt input side of the contactor from the main power supply, and is always supplying 230 volts of power to the heater. "

I am going to go out and look at it now. I will let you know what I find out.

Thanks again!

Shoe

What you guys are discusing is over my head. All that I know is that last summer my heat pump turned on by itself (in the heat mode) while the thermostat was in the off position. The only way I could turn it off was by tripping the breaker. I replaced the 10 year old Honeywell programmable thermostat, and solved the problem.

Ok, I went outside and looked at the unit. I do not think that this unit has a crankcase heater unless I am missing something. I am assuming that if there were, that it would be plugged into the bottom of the contactor. There are no cables there. There was a thermal cover on the compressor which I removed.

After I turned on the breaker and the unit kicked on, I checked the voltage coming in and it read 240 (11 and 23). I also checked the voltage across 21 and 23, and it read 120.

Thanks for the suggestion Dr D.

I unplugged the wiring that leads inside the house (disabling the thermostat), and the thing still kicked on when I turned on the circuit breaker. Ugh!! This is weird...

I put some additional pictures up online of the contactor

http://www.shoemaker.us/temp/contactor.jpg

And the inside components
http://www.shoemaker.us/temp/inside1.jpg
http://www.shoemaker.us/temp/inside2.jpg
http://www.shoemaker.us/temp/inside3.jpg

Scott

I also disconnected the wires from my old TS. That did not shut off the HP. It was only after I hooked up the new TS that it shut down. Why, I don't know.

In the pic you sent of the contactor it looks like it is in the closed position. Do you have 24 volts on the low voltage side of contactor?(check yellow and black wires on sides of contactor)

In the pic you sent of the contactor it looks like it is in the closed position. Do you have 24 volts on the low voltage side of contactor?(check yellow and black wires on sides of contactor)

Yes, in the picture, it does look closed. I also thought that it looked that way when I posted it. I can assure you that it is open, though. It is brand new and springs back when I manually push it in with the breaker off. There is no contact between the metal contact points until I push it in.

I checked the voltage between the yellow and brown wires (on the sides), and it was not 24V. It was negligible.

Thanks for the help.

Scott

Looks like you have a refrigerant leak by all the oil in the bottom of the condensing unit. Unless it is just old wet leaves. It also looks like oil residue on the copper line in the picture. Interesting.

There is no crankcase heater. I agree, it looks oil to me as well.

If you only have 120 volts at the top of the contactor when it's open, that is OK, it's a single pole contactor so it only breaks one leg. Something is strange here. Pull the small wire off the right side of the contactor, then power it up, does it come on?

No oil, just wet leaves.

I pulled the yellow wire off on the right side, and it still came on.

Ok, disconnect and tape off the two wires on the top of the contactor that are behind the screws, power it up, does it run?

Something is back feeding somewhere.

Ok, disconnect and tape off the two wires on the top of the contactor that are behind the screws, power it up, does it run?

No, it does not run, but you can hear a hum.

Also, there might be a little oil on the bottom in the leaves. I cleaned out the leaves and some of them were pretty dark. My fingers were a little greasy as well.

You may have a small leak, but that won't keep it running, try switching both yellow and black wires on the top of the contactor, and let me know what that does, I'm trying to pinpoint what exactly is back feeding.

You may have a small leak, but that won't keep it running, try switching both yellow and black wires on the top of the contactor, and let me know what that does, I'm trying to pinpoint what exactly is back feeding.

OK, Fan started, but compressor only hummed, probably because it was bypassing the capacitor.

In one of your pics it looks like the condenser fan wire is not on the defrost relay. I see the power in but not the black wire for the fan motor. Give us a pic of the top side of the run capacitor so we can see the wires. It is a back feed problem and a easy fix but just hard to do from the PC. Don't give up your close.

Give us a pic of the top side of the run capacitor so we can see the wires. It is a back feed problem and a easy fix but just hard to do from the PC. Dont give up your close.

Here is the pic.

http://www.shoemaker.us/temp/cap.jpg

Thanks again. This is very strange...

Shoe

The wiring looks right on the contactor and run capacitor. You said the old contactor was welded shut and bad(the question is why did it go bad). This is just a guess but if the windings in the fan motor short out and not go to ground it will give you feed back and make the compressor and fan motor run. Take the black wire from the fan motor on the defrost board off (I think its OF2 black wire). Tape it off and make sure it will not go to ground. Turn the breaker back on, if its not running turn it on at the T-stat only the compressor should run at this time, if that works you have a fan motor that is getting ready to go to equipment ground. A true test on the fan motor will be to ohm out the black and yellow wires on the motor( with the wires disconected from the contactor and run capacitor).

It was OF2. I took it off, flipped the breaker and only the compressor kicked on. The thermostat was still off.

Note: The old contactor was stuck open and the unit would not come on. When I pushed it in, it closed, and there was a small spark. I had to pry the contactor back open (with the power off) and then I immediately replaced it because it did not slide in and out easily. I think it went bad because I did not use my electric heat that much in the winter.

The only thing left is the run capacitor. I have seen them go bad and make the fan run all the time but not with the compressor. Its hard to say with out hands on. I would take the run capacitor to the local hvac company and have them test it, they should do it for free it takes about 5 seconds to find out if its bad or good.

Thanks again for all of your help as well as the others. I will do this on Monday when they open and let you know what happens.

Scott

One more test you can run and it's a stab in the dark(and I'm in the dark now) is to ohm out from 22 or 23 on the contactor to the ground wire or refrigerant lines to see if you have a slight ground.

One more test you can run and its a stab in the dark(and im in the dark now) is to ohm out from 22 or 23 on the contactor to the ground wire or refrigerant lines to see if you have a slight ground.

Just tried it, and it was not the case. Ugh, It is going to be very humid and 95 tomorrow. Maybe I should try to run it (with the indoor unit of course) for a short while in the morning just to at least see if I am pumping out cool air. Maybe it will fix itself <-- yeah right.

Shoe

It won't fix its self, but if the A/C will cool turn the fan to on at the T-stat and turn the A/C breaker on and let it cool. If it's a bad run capacitor it will not take long to find out the fan or compressor will shut off. Just keep a eye on it to make sure the condenser fan does not shut off with the compressor still running. Turn the A/C breaker back off when the house is cool.

This is a weird deal, It is very tough to fix problems over the internet, but we have to be missing something, I have looked over the pictures several times and everything looks to be wired correctly, I'm at a loss.

This is a weird deal.

Summary of weird crap leading up to this weird problem.

1. Originally, I could not get the thing to run at all the first time that I turned it on. I also tried the electric heat, and nothing. All I originally got was a click from somewhere on the outside unit each time (I do not know if that is any help or where the click came from). The indoor fan turned on as it should each time I called for cool or electric heat, but outside unit was dead.

2. When I pushed in the contactor, there was a spark (scared the crap out of me), but the thing kicked on. It tripped the inside breaker immediately, the first time it went on if I remember correctly. I pried the contactor out (it was stuck) and I reset the breaker.

3. When I turned on the outside breaker, the thing was on and would not shut off. Thermostat off and contactor open.

4. Now, no matter what, the thing will not shut off without turning off the breaker.

So, after all of that here we are...

I almost feel defeated on this one, it is so freaky.

I'm going to have to really think about this one tomorrow morning on the lake... lol. Like I said earlier, something is back feeding somewhere, hopefully Northernheat or one of the other guys on here may have some other ideas.

I'm with hvacservice tech 07 and T-Top. I done a lot of thinking on this and it has to be a simple fix if there to put hands on. But over internet it has been difficult. I'm sure intested in the out come on this one.

I'm with hvacservice tech 07 and T-Top. I done a lot of thinking on this and it has to be a simple fix if there to put hands on. But over internet it has been difficult. I'm sure intested in the out come on this one.

I will post the outcome when I get it sometime this week. Hopefully, we all can learn something from this one. Thanks again for all of the help everyone.

Stay tuned...

Shoe

Check the compressor terminals on the compressor. One could have burnt off and shorted making the fan and compressor run at the same time. Its worth a shot:)

Check the compressor terminals on the compressor. One could have burnt off and shorted making the fan and compressor run at the same time. Its worth a shot:)

Thanks, Air. Good Thinking. I have been buried this week, with several of my guys on vacation, but I will try and trace every cable and look at the connectors when I get a chance.

I did run the unit with the indoor fan and thermostat on the other day for about an hour. I had to turn everything on manually, and I set the temp really low so it would not shut off. It seemed to work OK, the air did not seem overly cool, but then again, I started with a house that was 82 degrees and somewhat humid when I fired it up.

Shoe