Is the Old Testament God's Word? Or has it lost its savor? Is the God of the Old Testament the same as the God of the New Testament? Should students of the Bible even bother reading the Old Testament? Is the Old Testament even part of the Bible? Lots of questions based on one topic.

Yes - 2 timothy 3:16
Seems like it.
Yes to the rest - Hewbrews and Romans make a lot of references to the Old Testament and the heroes of faith.


Grace and Peace

Also, Jesus quoted scripture, correctly, in His temptation by the devil.




Grace and Peace

"Bother" to read the Old Testament? The word, "bother" in reference to reading the Old Testament is very troublesome to me. How can I accept and understand the fulfillment of Christ in the New Testament if I do not know and believe the Old Testment? The Old Testament will never lose any of it's savor. Is the God of Abraham, Isaac, Moses, and Jacob the same God of Peter and Paul, et. al. Most definitely YES. There has only ever been the One God. There was not, are not, a separate God for each Testament.

"Bother" to read the Old Testament? The word, "bother" in reference to reading the Old Testament is very troublesome to me. How can I accept and understand the fulfillment of Christ in the New Testament if I do not know and believe the Old Testment? The Old Testament will never lose any of it's savor. Is the God of Abraham, Isaac, Moses, and Jacob the same God of Peter and Paul, et. al.? Most definitely YES. There has only ever been the One God. There was not, are not, a separate God for each Testament.

Thank you. I have come across so much dissent concerning the Old Testament that I was beginning to wonder if everyone had lost his or her marbles. Good post. I fully agree. I love the entire Bible from start to finish. It is the greatest Book on earth and yet it seems that a number of Christians almost despise its teachings. If there is some law that interferes with their personal life, then you hear "well that's from the Old Testament...it doesn't say it in the New." There seems to be this desire to pit one against the other when the Author of both is God Almighty. It's really quite sad actually. I didn't realize that there was so much confusion within the "Christian" community. I've had "Christians" screaming at me (using all capital letters) and others calling me names just because I say something that doesn't jive with their long held traditional beliefs. I pray that Christ reveals the truth to all of us.

I am sure we all will be mightily surprised when Christ comes back to claim His people.

Gods Word? Of course
The same God? Of course
Should we bother? Of course
Part of the Bible? Of course

Still valid in its entirety? Hmmmmm...

I believe this stemmed from the "pork" conversation I noticed. Is all of Gods Word still valid today?

Do you stand behind EVERYTHING that the bible teaches or says? If not, who decides what stays and what goes?

Gods Word? of course
the same God? of course
should we bother? of course
part of the Bible? of course
Still valid in its entirety? hmmmmm.....
I believe this stemmed from the "pork" conversation I noticed. Is all of Gods Word still valid today?
Do you stand behind EVERYTHING that the bible teaches or says? If not, who decides what stays and what goes?

Not only did it stem from the "pork" conversation (which, by the way was blown way out of proportion) but from the moral Laws of God. There's even one post that suggests that by being baptized, we are insulting Jesus Christ. So it's not even a discussion about the Old Testament vs. the New but the general schisms I've noticed since I've been here. I know that I am guilty of being argumentative at times. I've bitten my tongue so many times it's almost severed. But the screaming (all capital letters) and the name calling that I've gotten from other Christians is what has me the most concerned. I thought about it off and on all day today and I'm not sure what to make of it. Anyhoo, not much I'm going to be able to do about it I suppose.

Hey, I put a few words in capital letters for emphasis, so you could get the feel of the post but I never screamed. NOT ever... I like you... even if you are mostly always completely wrong.

P.S. of course the old testament is VALID... I LOVE ALL of God's word... all of it, regardless of what you think. I just am a Christian saved by GRACE... (not Baptism) and I understand the difference between LAW and GRACE. I hope I that didn't hurt your ears.

This discussion will undoubtedly get to this letter that floats around the internet. While an obvious attack on the Old Testament, it does reflect some of the questionable "Laws" from the same Book. (thanks NK for the link to this)



Dear Dr. Laura,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

I) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

The GOD of the old testament is the JEHOVAH of the new testament. The bible is directed to the bride of Christ. It is God in written form, and yes, the whole bible is valid.

I'm very confused by some of the discussion here.

If God is omniscient, and the bible is God's word, then how can the old testament fail to be valid today? If people think it is not valid today, then surely you must question the whole of the bible, in fact the whole belief of god as an omniscient being?

The GOD of the old testament is the JEHOVAH of the new testament. The bible is directed to the bride of Christ. It is God in written form, and yes, the whole bible is valid.

Thanks Marily. So far, you're the third or fourth Christian who believes that. It's good to know. The Old Testament is very significant, very fresh and alive, and very beneficial to modern Christians. The history alone should excite the reader (although, admittedly, there are some dry areas). God bless you, your family, and your community.

I thought Jehovah and God were the same?

Jehovah and Jesus are one and the same

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
Jesus Christ's death of the cross was the final offering and the ultimate sacrifice. No need to burn bull in the backyard, unless you're having a BBQ.

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
My first ancestor who came to America in the early 1600s came as an endentured slave. It was not uncommon for those who were in debt to willingly go into slavery to pay their way out of debt. It was a temporary condition. Romans 13 discusses being subject to the civil authorities. If the government you are under does not allow slavery then we are to obey that government. Nowhere in Exodus or anywhere else was it commanded that we should sell loved ones into salvery.

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
No need to ask a woman if she is experiencing her cycle. If she has any scruples, she will handle the matter on her own and discretely.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
Bondmen and bondwomen were servants. They worked for room and board. They answered to whomever offered room and board and owned the property. Sounds like I fall into that category. I have to answer to my boss and I get paid enough to pay for room and board. No mention of anyone getting whipped or beaten. Fact is, there are tons of American children abducted each year and sold into slavery in other countries and I bet they aren't being treated as well as the servants of the Old Testament.

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
One man was put to death for working on the Sabbath. It shows how important it is to obey God's commands. God must take the Sabbath very seriously if He was willing to go to those lengths. There are other passages that state that the wages of sin is death; therefore, Sabbath-breaking doesn't stand alone in that category.

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
It is a lesser "abomination" than homosexuality. It's hard to beat that abomination. Abstaining from shell fish, pork, etc. was a way to stay healthy. God created some creatures to clean up the messes left on earth or in the water. Those creatures eat up all the dead and decaying matter to help remove diseases and bacteria. Eat them if you must but if you have a choice, try something cleaner.

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
This whole chapter concerns itself with the Levitical priesthood which was a shadow of things to come. Christ, our Priest of priests, was perfect.

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?
Again, speaking of the priesthood and not every man.

I) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
Correct. Pigs are very unclean and full of parasites. Even touching them can be dangerous to your health. However, by the time the football skin has been processed, cleaned, tanned, etc., it won't have the effect that skin dripping with blood would.

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
This speaks of the adulteration of God's creation. God's blueprint or design was specific. The first page of Genesis speaks of plants with "seed in itself." Even the New Testament says not to yoke two different animals together unequally. None of the above will send someone to hell. It's just basic common sense.

Obvioulsy, the person who compiled these questions doesn't have much use for God or for rules. He has a bone to pick. Not uncommon and to be expected. My concern when I posted the question for this thread had to do with how Christians view the Bible, not how Christ haters viewed it.

I thought Jehovah and God were the same?

He is. God has several different titles but there is only one God. There can be only one God.

This discussion will undoubtedly get to this letter that floats around the internet. While an obvious attack on the Old Testament, it does reflect some of the questionable "Laws" from the same Book. (thanks NK for the link to this)

From Matthew 5:
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

"everything accomplished" is referring to the death and ressurection of Jesus Christ.

again from Matthew this time chapter 22

34Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Grace and Peace

again this is in reply to the "Dr Laura" letter post #10

Galatians 4

4But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.

Galatians 5:

3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
13You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature[a]; rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."[b] 15If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.


Galatians was written by St Paul to the church of Galatia, that still thought the legalistic aspect, as typified by the "Dr Laura letter," was necessary for salvation.




Grace and Peace

He is. God has several different titles but there is only one God. There can be only one God.

Oh okay so Marily was just pointing out that Jesus and Jehovah and God are just different names for the same guy with the beard used in different parts of the bible!

I get it now! :)

Again - for those who don't believe in God/Bible/Jesus Christ - why do you quote from a source you don't believe in ?

That is intellectually dishonest.

Matthew 4
The Temptation of Jesus
1Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. 2After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."
4Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'[a]"

5Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6"If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:
" 'He will command his angels concerning you,
And they will lift you up in their hands,
So that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'[b]"

7Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'[c]"

8Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9"All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."

10Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'[d]"

11Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.


See even the Devil can misquote scripture.




Grace and Peace

inthebox, I think that non-believers quote from the bible because they wish to understand it. If they find something that doesn't make sense in their mind, they will question it and ask a believer for an explanation.

How else do you learn about the bible? Or does the fact that we don't believe mean that we're not allowed to seek understanding of it?

a)When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
Jesus Christ's death of the cross was the final offering and the ultimate sacrifice. No need to burn bull in the backyard, unless you're having a BBQ.
The Bible does not say that this is obsolete, only you do.

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
My first ancestor who came to America in the early 1600s came as an endentured slave. It was not uncommon for those who were in debt to willingly go into slavery to pay their way out of debt. It was a temporary condition. Romans 13 discusses being subject to the civil authorities. If the government you are under does not allow slavery then we are to obey that government. Nowhere in Exodus or anywhere else was it commanded that we should sell loved ones into salvery.
So selling your daughter into slavery can’t be done if your local government has rules against it. So a government can supersede the Bible. Fair enough.

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
No need to ask a woman if she is experiencing her cycle. If she has any scruples, she will handle the matter on her own and discretely.
But you evaded the fact that we should have no contact with her.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
Bondmen and bondwomen were servants. They worked for room and board. They answered to whomever offered room and board and owned the property. Sounds like I fall into that category. I have to answer to my boss and I get paid enough to pay for room and board. No mention of anyone getting whipped or beaten. Fact is, there are tons of American children abducted each year and sold into slavery in other countries and I bet they aren't being treated as well as the servants of the Old Testament.
Sorry, I don’t buy your little generalization. You can walk away from your job at any time, you can form a union for better rights. Employment does not equal slavery. Rationalizing that slaves were well treated (there is no way in the world you can ever know that so I assume you made it up) is no excuse for slavery.

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
One man was put to death for working on the Sabbath. It shows how important it is to obey God's commands. God must take the Sabbath very seriously if He was willing to go to those lengths. There are other passages that state that the wages of sin is death; therefore, Sabbath-breaking doesn't stand alone in that category.
But yet millions of people work on the Sabbath and no one is killing them. Why?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
It is a lesser "abomination" than homosexuality. It's hard to beat that abomination. Abstaining from shell fish, pork, etc. was a way to stay healthy. God created some creatures to clean up the messes left on earth or in the water. Those creatures eat up all the dead and decaying matter to help remove diseases and bacteria. Eat them if you must but if you have a choice, try something cleaner.
Nice that you get a chance to throw in your homophobia. I wasn’t aware that the Bible makes a list a greater and lesser abominations … no wait, it doesn’t, only you do. So now that abomination (shellfish) really is not one; how many more bits in the Bible do you not follow?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
This whole chapter concerns itself with the Levitical priesthood which was a shadow of things to come. Christ, our Priest of priests, was perfect.
Where in the Bible is it written that this restriction has been lifted?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?
Again, speaking of the priesthood and not every man.
I believe the Pentacosts take this to mean all men. Yet they use the same Bible.

I) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
Correct. Pigs are very unclean and full of parasites. Even touching them can be dangerous to your health. However, by the time the football skin has been processed, cleaned, tanned, etc., it won't have the effect that skin dripping with blood would.
So many untruths in your reply. Here, learn more about pigs here (http://www.hsiasia.org/Farm/Farm_Closer%20Look%20at%20Pigs.htm).

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
This speaks of the adulteration of God's creation. God's blueprint or design was specific. The first page of Genesis speaks of plants with "seed in itself." Even the New Testament says not to yoke two different animals together unequally. None of the above will send someone to hell. It's just basic common sense.
Yet everyday you probably eat food from fields that have adjacent crops. So it seems that no one follows that ‘rule’ as well. By ‘common sense’ are you saying that you know more than agriculturists?

Obvioulsy, the person who compiled these questions doesn't have much use for God or for rules. He has a bone to pick. Not uncommon and to be expected. My concern when I posted the question for this thread had to do with how Christians view the Bible, not how Christ haters viewed it.
The person mentioned verses from the same Bible that you follow literally. How can you find fault in that?
You see hate in everyone who is not like you, that is sad and a bad example for all.

NK

Dr Laura is an Orthodox Jew, maybe this letter would be better addressed on that forum.

As a Christian, and I speak only for myself, I would advise reading, studying, and fellowship with other Christians. See my prior posts on this thread.

I do believe, as you do, that hate [ for example, Westboro Baptist ] is NOT consistent with Christianity.



Grace and Peace

The Dr. Laura part is a hoax and it really doesn't matter the source does it? (See ad hominem: consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.)

Is this not a thread dealing with the Old Testament?

Is the Old Testament God's Word? Or has it lost its savor? Is the God of the Old Testament the same as the God of the New Testament? Should students of the Bible even bother reading the Old Testament? Is the Old Testament even part of the Bible? Lots of questions based on one topic.

I believe all of the Bible; Old and New testaments are God's Word. For me it has NOT lost it's savor (strength).
(Heb 4:12) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Secondly, The God of the O.T. IS the same God of the N.T. He chooses to continue to reveal His Will and plan for mankind by speaking to us through
His Word ,(the Holy Bible) and, through various other methods, as He chooses. In the O.T. God spoke mainly through His Prophets, Seers and Sages. Some of these ways were by visitation by God's messengers (angels), dreams, visions, the Word of Knowledge, the Word of Wisdom. He also chose to use Kings and other chosen leaders. When we read in the O.T for example, where David "consulted the Lord", this was accomplished by the use of two mysterious stones... The Urim and Thummim. God chooses to use means that continue to baffle the minds of mankind!
Thirdly, yes we should read and study the O.T. very thoroughly, as it is "the schoolmaster". The O.T. teaches the beginning of all things of Creation. It records the history of the development of man and of the world as we know it today. It records and explains the offering and giving of sacrifices... that of taking the life of an innocent, guiltless animal by the shedding of it's blood, as the Scriptures tell us that "the life is in the blood". It foreshadows the coming plan of salvation, when God in the personage of Jesus Christ, left the portals of heaven, was born into this world by a virgin, lived a sinless life on this earth for about 33-1/2 years before giving his life on the cross of Calvary, which was a substitutionary death on the behalf of mankind, so that we could be saved from our sins.
I hope this helps someone to put things in prospective.
God bless each of you.

So what is the True Word of God? Is it necessarily the Bible and if so, is it in its entirety? Obviously there are things written that do not flush with today's society. I understand that many Christians will want to say that they live and die by the Word of God in its entirety, even though, in reality, maybe they do not... but who of them would dare to go against it?

The Bible, whether originally inspired by the Mouth of God or not, has been passed through the hands of imperfect man... leading to the imperfection of the Bible itself.

Who are we to know what has been changed and what has remained the same. True, the Bible tells us of what would happen to he who adds to, changes, or deletes from the Bible but it does not say that it will remain the same and what will change since its been written.

It is written that no sin is greater than another; however, many have allowed the consumption of pork or shellfish while they still damn the "greater" abomination of homosexuality.

So who says what stays and what goes? The church? The religion? Neither of these things matter... all that matters if faith.

Do I go to "church"? No... the "church" is as it always has been... corrupt. Do I claim a "religion"? No... "religion" is as it always has been... corrupt.

Do I believe in the same God as you? I know I do... even those who do not believe in "God". Unfortunately, the name "God" has been branded with so much negativity in the eyes of so many that most do not understand what the One True God is... even the most self-proclaimed devout Christians.

How many of these Christians would have stood up for Jesus before His crucification? How many would have bucked the "religions" taught to them and their ancestors at that time? I think we would all be shocked at the amount. Because just as today, many blindly follow the crowd and what they have been taught and fail to ask the question. Many would be the ones to praise Him when we were to be praised but be quick to taunt when the rest of the crowd turned on Him, as well.

Again - for those who don't believe in God/Bible/Jesus Christ - why do you quote from a source you don't believe in ? That is intellectually dishonest.
Grace and Peace

Amen to that Mr. Box. Unfortunately, some come here for the sole purpose of mocking God.

[QUOTE=DrJizzle]So what is the True Word of God? Is it necessarily the Bible and if so, is it in its entirety? Obviously there are things written that do not flush with today's society. I understand that many Christians will want to say that they live and die by the Word of God in its entirety, even though, in reality, maybe they do not... but who of them would dare to go against it?

I don't personally know anyone who says that "they live and die by the Word of God but I know plenty who would say that they try to

The Bible, whether originally inspired by the Mouth of God or not, has been passed through the hands of imperfect man... leading to the imperfection of the Bible itself.

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." II Peter 1:20-21

Who are we to know what has been changed and what has remained the same.

Faith in a God who knows all and who loves His children enough to see to it that they received His Word in a truthful manner.

True, the Bible tells us of what would happen to he who adds to, changes, or deletes from the Bible but it does not say that it will remain the same and what will change since its been written.

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." I have nearly 20 versions of the Bible and some of them have been changed. Those that have been changed are generally easy to spot if you study them.

It is written that no sin is greater than another; however, many have allowed the consumption of pork or shellfish while they still damn the "greater" abomination of homosexuality.

The sin of blasphemy of the Holy Ghost is an unforgiveable sin. That fact alone reveals that there are different levels of sin. Some sins (just like some of our current laws) required the death penalty while other sins required lesser punishments. But all men have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God. And the wages of sin is death. Christ paid for that death for those who accept Him, love Him, and obey Him.

So who says what stays and what goes? The church? The religion? Neither of these things matter... all that matters if faith.

More than just faith but rather faith in Jesus Christ. There is a difference.

Do I go to "church"? No... the "church" is as it always has been... corrupt. Do I claim a "religion"? No... "religion" is as it always has been... corrupt.

So the church of DrJizzle is NOT corrupt?

Do I believe in the same God as you? I know I do... even those who do not believe in "God". Unfortunately, the name "God" has been branded with so much negativity in the eyes of so many that most do not understand what the One True God is... even the most self-proclaimed devout Christians.

True, God has been given a bad rap. No man has seen the face of God the Father. He is so hated that He has been removed from our public schools and institutions and there is more dismantling to come I'm sure. Those who mock Him certainly don't understand His power and the consequences of their foolish actions.

How many of these Christians would have stood up for Jesus before His crucification?

Even the beloved Apostle Peter had difficulty in this department. I'm sure that most Christians, including myself, would have been petrified to have witnessed the scene. It's humbling to think about it.

How many would have bucked the "religions" taught to them and their ancestors at that time?

Not to pat myself on the back but I have no trouble at all bucking the status quo. If you have read even half of my posts, you will know that I'm not a mainstreamer. I prefer to follow what I read in the Bible (King James version is my preference) that remains steadfast and true. Look at the myriad of denominations speckling the countryside. Religious tenets change almost daily but the Bible sitting on a million shelves collecting dust stays the same day after day after day. Twenty years ago, the Anglican Church would have been staunchly against the sin of homosexuality but look at what happened recently, a giant flip flop occurred. The Bible did not flip flop. It still says what it says about that sin just like it did 400 years ago and just like it did at the time of Moses.

Oh okay so Marily was just pointing out that Jesus and Jehovah and God are just different names for the same guy with the beard used in different parts of the bible!

I get it now! :)

The same guy with the beard? God is God whether He is in the beginning of the Bible or at the end of the Bible. Jesus Christ was God incarnate. It was necessary for God to take on the flesh in order to sacrifice Himself for our sins. "The guy with the beard" is meant, I assume, to mean Jesus Christ. Jesus was 100% God and 100% man. Hard to fathom but true nonetheless.

a)
The Bible does not say that this is obsolete, only you do.

No...the Bible says it. Study to show yourself approved. Search the Scriptures if you really want to know the truth. I'm not going to search them for you anymore. You clearly choose not to see truth. Perhaps you aren't meant to...don't know and, frankly, don't care where you are concerned.

So selling your daughter into slavery can't be done if your local government has rules against it. So a government can supersede the Bible. Fair enough.
You clearly and purposely ignored my first post. Bible never commanded selling someone into slavery yet there were times when people went into servitude purposely to pay off debts or simply to have a place to eat and sleep.

But you evaded the fact that we should have no contact with her.
Have all the contact you wish unless you prefer to please God with your obedience. The mentrual cycle is a cleansing period for a woman. Best not to have sexual contact (unless you're in to that kind of thing).

Sorry, I don't buy your little generalization. You can walk away from your job at any time, you can form a union for better rights. Employment does not equal slavery. Rationalizing that slaves were well treated (there is no way in the world you can ever know that so I assume you made it up) is no excuse for slavery.
Buy...don't buy...up to you. The unions here in America forced many American jobs to uproot themselves and plant themselves on Chinese or East Indian soil. Things may have been "better" for awhile but they are much worse now. I can leave my job and then I won't pay for my room and board. See what happens if you don't pay your taxes. Free we are not. Also, you use the word "slavery" as a synonym for bondman. Nonetheless, Romans chapter 13 explains our requirement to be subject to the civil authorities as does I Peter chapter 2. Read for yourself.

But yet millions of people work on the Sabbath and no one is killing them. Why?
Jesus Christ will judge all of us at a specified time as it's written in the book of Revelation. Nobody, not even you, will have the excuse that you weren't told or hadn't been warned. God gave us free will. He is not going to force you or me to accept Him. However, He has revealed the truth to us all and we each have access to the Holy Bible. Read...don't read...accept...don't accept...between you and Him.

Nice that you get a chance to throw in your homophobia.
Your politically correct buds would be proud that you found a chance to throw in one of your ultra-socialistic buzz words. However, homophobia implies a "fear of men."
"Homo" = man or human while "phobia" = fear. I have no fear of humans or men; therefore, I don't adhere to your ficticious buzz word. Abortion, homosexuality, bestiality, rape, murder, and a plethora of other sins are abominations in the eyes of God. They make a mockery of His perfect plan.

I wasn't aware that the Bible makes a list a greater and lesser abominations … no wait, it doesn't, only you do. So now that abomination (shellfish) really is not one; how many more bits in the Bible do you not follow? Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost is an unforgiveable sin while all other sins are forgiveable. Ah...so the Bible DOES differentiate between sins. If a man stole another man's goat, he had to pay back two goats. If a man raped a young woman, he received the death penalty. Eating pork is bad for you.

[B]Where in the Bible is it written that this restriction has been lifted?The Levitical priesthood was fulfilled by the presence of Jesus Christ, our perfect Priest.

I believe the Pentacosts take this to mean all men. Yet they use the same Bible. Hooray for the Pentacosts.


So many untruths in your reply. Here, learn more about pigs I already learned about pigs by reading the Bible and by personal experience. Thanks anyway.

[B]Yet everyday you probably eat food from fields that have adjacent crops. So it seems that no one follows that 'rule' as well. By 'common sense' are you saying that you know more than agriculturists?First of all I'm not saying that I do, I'm saying that God does. Secondly, it would depend on the agriculturalist in question. Thirdly, I grow some of my own veggies and I buy most from a health food store that sells organic groceries. Thirdly, cross pollenation is not good for either crop from a nutritional standpoint. God knew his creation better than all of us. Good to listen. Certainly wouldn't hurt.

The person mentioned verses from the same Bible that you follow literally. How can you find fault in that?They were "mentioned" in a snide and derogatory way. We all know it.

You see hate in everyone who is not like you, that is sad and a bad example for all.And you show hate for anyone who isn't a secular humanist like you. I guess that makes us sort of even.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
Jesus Christ's death of the cross was the final offering and the ultimate sacrifice. No need to burn bull in the backyard, unless you're having a BBQ.

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
My first ancestor who came to America in the early 1600s came as an endentured slave. It was not uncommon for those who were in debt to willingly go into slavery to pay their way out of debt. It was a temporary condition. Romans 13 discusses being subject to the civil authorities. If the government you are under does not allow slavery then we are to obey that government. Nowhere in Exodus or anywhere else was it commanded that we should sell loved ones into salvery.

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
No need to ask a woman if she is experiencing her cycle. If she has any scruples, she will handle the matter on her own and discretely.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
Bondmen and bondwomen were servants. They worked for room and board. They answered to whomever offered room and board and owned the property. Sounds like I fall into that category. I have to answer to my boss and I get paid enough to pay for room and board. No mention of anyone getting whipped or beaten. Fact is, there are tons of American children abducted each year and sold into slavery in other countries and I bet they aren't being treated as well as the servants of the Old Testament.

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
One man was put to death for working on the Sabbath. It shows how important it is to obey God's commands. God must take the Sabbath very seriously if He was willing to go to those lengths. There are other passages that state that the wages of sin is death; therefore, Sabbath-breaking doesn't stand alone in that category.

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
It is a lesser "abomination" than homosexuality. It's hard to beat that abomination. Abstaining from shell fish, pork, etc. was a way to stay healthy. God created some creatures to clean up the messes left on earth or in the water. Those creatures eat up all the dead and decaying matter to help remove diseases and bacteria. Eat them if you must but if you have a choice, try something cleaner.

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
This whole chapter concerns itself with the Levitical priesthood which was a shadow of things to come. Christ, our Priest of priests, was perfect.

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?
Again, speaking of the priesthood and not every man.

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
Correct. Pigs are very unclean and full of parasites. Even touching them can be dangerous to your health. However, by the time the football skin has been processed, cleaned, tanned, etc., it won't have the effect that skin dripping with blood would.

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
This speaks of the adulteration of God's creation. God's blueprint or design was specific. The first page of Genesis speaks of plants with "seed in itself." Even the New Testament says not to yoke two different animals together unequally. None of the above will send someone to hell. It's just basic common sense.

Obvioulsy, the person who compiled these questions doesn't have much use for God or for rules. He has a bone to pick. Not uncommon and to be expected. My concern when I posted the question for this thread had to do with how Christians view the Bible, not how Christ haters viewed it.

Great job! I would have rated you, but got to spread it around.

Agree completely, a lot of churches are letting their bars down and invites sin. Satan can be very deceiving and pevert the Word of God on a daily basis, that is why it is so important that we must be guided by the Holy Ghost to be able to see these things.

Agree completely, alot of churches are letting their bars down and invites sin. Satan can be very deceiving and pevert the Word of God on a daily basis, that is why it is so important that we must be guided by the Holy Ghost to be able to see these things.

Amen. Put on the full armour of God. Faith is our shield and God's Word is our sword. His Word is sharper than any two-edged sword. Read it, learn it, memorize it, live it, love it. Pray for the strength of the Holy Ghost. Trust in God.

Amen to that ! ( thought I would rate you, but its this reputation thing again)

So what is the True Word of God? Is it necessarily the Bible and if so, is it in its entirety? Obviously there are things written that do not flush with today's society. I understand that many Christians will want to say that they live and die by the Word of God in its entirety, even though, in reality, maybe they do not... but who of them would dare to go against it?

I don't personally know anyone who says that "they live and die by the Word of God but I know plenty who would say that they try to

ok, ya caught me on a technicality... of course, they all "try" to... not one has actually accomplished it (granted, I realize this leaves open a response of "One Man did... His name is Jesus Christ" but I tend to doubt (and no one can prove) that Jesus would have treated people some of the ways the Old Book tells us to.

The Bible, whether originally inspired by the Mouth of God or not, has been passed through the hands of imperfect man... leading to the imperfection of the Bible itself.

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." II Peter 1:20-21

I understand that this is how it was written. But I do not believe that this is what we read today.

Who are we to know what has been changed and what has remained the same.

Faith in a God who knows all and who loves His children enough to see to it that they received His Word in a truthful manner.

His Word can be obtain in more ways that one. Dont put too much faith in the works of man to determine what you believe to be the True Word of God.

True, the Bible tells us of what would happen to he who adds to, changes, or deletes from the Bible but it does not say that it will remain the same and what will change since its been written.

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." I have nearly 20 versions of the Bible and some of them have been changed. Those that have been changed are generally easy to spot if you study them.

There is simply no way to know if what you read today is exactly as it was written. As I am sure, these 20 different versions that you read were all just written in the past century. but what of the centuries and centuries of corrupt man before this?

It is written that no sin is greater than another; however, many have allowed the consumption of pork or shellfish while they still damn the "greater" abomination of homosexuality.

The sin of blasphemy of the Holy Ghost is an unforgiveable sin. That fact alone reveals that there are different levels of sin. Some sins (just like some of our current laws) required the death penalty while other sins required lesser punishments. But all men have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God. And the wages of sin is death. Christ paid for that death for those who accept Him, love Him, and obey Him.

The ONE noted "unforgivable sin" is is, yes, blasphemy toward God. However, the depth of this is arguable (and for another thread), simply because there were those in the NT that could have been considered blasphemous toward God but were forgiven. True blasphemy is a deeper issue. And for that fact, it is in a league of its own. Just because ONE sin is considered unforgivable does not mean in any way that the rest are on a sliding scale. That is simply in the mind of man. Penalties given by man have no bearing on their weight according to God. The wages of sin is death. The wages of sin is death (just in case you didnt catch that). It does not say that this one is death... this one is just a spanking... this one you will have to hop on one leg and cluck like a chicken for... the wages of sin is death, which Christ paid for.

So who says what stays and what goes? The church? The religion? Neither of these things matter... all that matters if faith.

More than just faith but rather faith in Jesus Christ. There is a difference.

True... but nonetheless, church and religion still mean nothing...

Do I go to "church"? No... the "church" is as it always has been... corrupt. Do I claim a "religion"? No... "religion" is as it always has been... corrupt.

So the church of DrJizzle is NOT corrupt?

no more than the church of ActionJackson

Do I believe in the same God as you? I know I do... even those who do not believe in "God". Unfortunately, the name "God" has been branded with so much negativity in the eyes of so many that most do not understand what the One True God is... even the most self-proclaimed devout Christians.

True, God has been given a bad rap. No man has seen the face of God the Father. He is so hated that He has been removed from our public schools and institutions and there is more dismantling to come I'm sure. Those who mock Him certainly don't understand His power and the consequences of their foolish actions.

Nor do those that devote their life to Him.

How many of these Christians would have stood up for Jesus before His crucification?

Even the beloved Apostle Peter had difficulty in this department. I'm sure that most Christians, including myself, would have been petrified to have witnessed the scene. It's humbling to think about it.

100% agreed. And do you think you would have come to realize the truth in the few short years you would have had left? Most wouldnt have had a chance until hundreds of years later when it became "accepted".

How many would have bucked the "religions" taught to them and their ancestors at that time?

Not to pat myself on the back but I have no trouble at all bucking the status quo. If you have read even half of my posts, you will know that I'm not a mainstreamer. I prefer to follow what I read in the Bible (King James version is my preference) that remains steadfast and true. Look at the myriad of denominations speckling the countryside. Religious tenets change almost daily but the Bible sitting on a million shelves collecting dust stays the same day after day after day. Twenty years ago, the Anglican Church would have been staunchly against the sin of homosexuality but look at what happened recently, a giant flip flop occurred. The Bible did not flip flop. It still says what it says about that sin just like it did 400 years ago and just like it did at the time of Moses.

Well, again.. arguable. Lets look at some other abominations from the Bible:

Of course, adultery (Lev 18:20), sex with animals (Lev 18:23), remarrying one's wife after she's had another husband in between (Deut 24:4), or approaching any woman during the time of her "uncleanness" (Lev 18:19). Cross-dressing is out (Deut 22:5), and that includes Halloween costumes, slacks on women, bib overalls on little girls, or a wife wearing her husband's favorite Oxford buttondown. And more on buttondowns in a moment.

Other abominations include tarot readings, glancing at your horoscope, trimming one's beard, and getting a tattoo, even if it says, "Mom" (Lev 19:26-28). Haughty eyes (Prov 6:17) and telling lies (Prov 6:17, 12:22) are big abominations. Being untruthful also includes false weights and measures (Prov 11:1), or any other dishonesty in business. "Everyone who acts unjustly is an abomination to the LORD your God" (Prov 11:16).

So in the eyes of the Lord, you are no better than an honest, Christian homosexual (And i mean that with absolutely no disrespect to you, ActionJackson, or to any homosexual on this planet)... it was just a point of referrence.

poppa0777 disagrees: Being unsaved, you cannot understand and discern the Scriptures. But...the good news is that Jesus Christ died for YOUR sins as well. All you have to do is accept the Bible as the infallible Word of God and be born again.

Poppa... do not assume to know what I believe or whether I am saved. Do not judge me by your own hangups. I do not make these assumptions about you.

Speaking to the statement from Dr Jizzle, there is no such thing as an "honest, Christian homosexual. According to the Bible (and common sense) homosexuality IS SIN, and NO Christian will indulge in sin as a usual practice. Sin will not be found in Heaven.
As to the statements about some sins or "degrees" of sins, all Christians should be praying for understanding of the following Scriptures.

(1Jn 5:16) If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
(1Jn 5:17) All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
(1Jn 5:18) We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; (as a usual practice...emphasis in brackets mine for clarity)but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
(1Jn 5:19) And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
(1Jn 5:20) And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
So...the Scripture is clear that there is a sin unto death, and a sin NOT unto death.
Dr Jizzle is wrong again.
AS USUAL, ACTION JACKSON IS ALL OVER THIS DISCUSSION. WHY?? BECAUSE HE'S BIBLICALLY CORRECT! THAT, MY FRIENDS, IS THE LONG AND SHORT OF THIS ENTIRE DISCUSSION. The true Child of God has no interest in being politically correct; only biblically correct!!!!!
AMEN!!!!!!!

poppa... if you had been paying attention, you would have seen that we have already clarified the ONE sin that leads to death. For ALL OTHER sins do not and can therefore, be prayed for. And THIS the Bible is very clear about. Show me the hierarchy of the rest of the sins, if you would.

If you would have included the beginning of 1 John 5, you would have shown my point exactly...

poppa... have you ever approached a woman in the time of her "uncleaness"? And if so, have you repented and vowed to never do it again? If not, what makes you any different? Does your wife wear pants? If so, do you spend your waking hours trying to persuade her not to? If not, what makes you any different? Your posts alone shows your unjust acts... and yet, you will continue to post in such a manner. What makes you any different?

poppa... do not assume to know what I believe or whether or not I am saved. Do not judge me by your own hangups. I do not make these assumptions about you.
Jason, Actually my post was not an assumption on my part. My post and rating was based solely on your own words. You may want to read and ponder the following Scripture...especially the last verse. By the way....these are the words of Jesus.
(Mat 12:22) Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
(Mat 12:23) And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
(Mat 12:24) But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
(Mat 12:25) And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
(Mat 12:26) And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
(Mat 12:27) And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
(Mat 12:28) But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
(Mat 12:29) Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
(Mat 12:30) He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
(Mat 12:31) Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
(Mat 12:32) And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
(Mat 12:33) Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
(Mat 12:34) O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
(Mat 12:35) A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
(Mat 12:36) But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
(Mat 12:37) For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Now to address "my hangups" If you refer to my strong allegiance to the Bible...the infallible Word of God, the 1611 Authorized Version, aka the King James Bible, then I am guilty, even though I do not consider that to be a "hangup" as you call it. You see, Jason, I have spent the last 32 years (since giving my heart to the Lord Jesus Christ) as a serious Bible student and teacher. Why? Because before my conversion to Christ, I was a miserable, lost sinner with no purpose or direction for my life. I was an individual that was in bad company when I was by myself. I was an absolute failure, having been divorced twice by good women whom I treated very badly. Jesus Christ has given me purpose, direction, and a zeal for life. I even found that I no longer had a need to sleep with a sawed-off shotgun in my bed.
Jason, the main thing I want to leave you with is this......we could debate philosophies, opinions, and ideas that probably would not accomplish much. But there's one thing I have that no man can argue with. I am a changed person.
I will be praying for you Jason. I would love to hear from you soon with a different "tone" in your posts.
God bless you Jason.

ok, ya caught me on a technicality... of course, they all "try" to... not one has actually accomplished it (granted, I realize this leaves open a response of "One Man did... His name is Jesus Christ" but I tend to doubt (and no one can prove) that Jesus would have treated people some of the ways the Old Book tells us to.

I believe that the Old Testament pointed men in the right direction but imperfect men often erred in their attempt to walk a perfect life. They were trying to follow the perfect Law of God with an imperfect and sinful body. They tried to atone for their sins by sacrificing animals which was a temporary fix. They failed so miserably that the 10 tribes of northern Israel was divorced by God and went into Assyrian captivity. The southern tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and part of Levi went into Babylonian captivity. God, however, loved His children enough to send His only begotten Son to be our example and to save us from the promise of eternal death. Instead, we received eternal life if we believed in Him, repented of our sins, were baptized, and continued to work towards perfection. However, Christ does promise to bring justice to this earth and it won't be a pretty sight.

I understand that this is how it was written. But I do not believe that this is what we read today.

That's where faith comes in and diligent study. The Bible has to be read in context and cross references should be checked. I have concordances, lexicons, many versions of the Bible, dictionaries, and commentaries. I'm not a Catholic but I have the Catholic Encyclopedia and I'm not Jewish but I have a Jewish Encyclopedia. I truly want to know what is true. I do not let myself be lead astray by men. On the other hand, some of the most profound truths I have learned have come from the mouths of men. It all boils down to faith or the lack thereof.

His Word can be obtain in more ways that one. Dont put too much faith in the works of man to determine what you believe to be the True Word of God.

See my response above. I have faith in God and I have faith that God will sometimes use men for His purposes. Test everything by the Word of God. It either stands for falls.

There is simply no way to know if what you read today is exactly as it was written. As I am sure, these 20 different versions that you read were all just written in the past century. but what of the centuries and centuries of corrupt man before this?

And there is absolutely no way to know if DrJizzle's or ActionJackson's assumptions or conclusions about life can be fully trusted. We are men. Our moods swing. Our emotions can easily play a part in our decision making processes. The Bible remains the same. It's constant and it is clearly a good Book. It tries to help, not hurt, people. I think some people believe that I believe that we need to live solely by the Old Testament because I defend it so vehemently. Not the case. I believe that it is the Word of God but I believe that Jesus Christ is the example that we should live by and that the moral Laws (10 Commandments) are still valid. The King James was penned in 1611 and the Geneva Bible even earlier. I have both.

The ONE noted "unforgivable sin" is is, yes, blasphemy toward God. However, the depth of this is arguable (and for another thread), simply because there were those in the NT that could have been considered blasphemous toward God but were forgiven. True blasphemy is a deeper issue. And for that fact, it is in a league of its own. Just because ONE sin is considered unforgivable does not mean in any way that the rest are on a sliding scale. That is simply in the mind of man. Penalties given by man have no bearing on their weight according to God. The wages of sin is death. The wages of sin is death (just in case you didnt catch that). It does not say that this one is death... this one is just a spanking... this one you will have to hop on one leg and cluck like a chicken for... the wages of sin is death, which Christ paid for.

Blasphemy at some depth or point is unforgiveable so my argument stands. My original post stated or implied a couple of things: 1) If the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Ghost is the only unforgiveable sin, then all other sins are forgiveable and 2) that the wages of sin (all sin) is death. However, America's early laws were founded on biblical principles (we used to be considered a Christians country). The crime of murder required a punishment of death while the crime of stealing a man's rake might require some hard labor or a monetary penalty of double the worth of the object taken. Oh, and if you looked at the pastor's wife the wrong way, you had to hop on one leg and cluck like a chicken.


True... but nonetheless, church and religion still mean nothing...

To you!

no more than the church of ActionJackson

You have no church while I have the benefit of the Christ's living church. Where two or more are gathered together for My (Christ's) namesake.

Nor do those that devote their life to Him.

I'll take my chances and you can certainly take yours. You have free will.

100% agreed. And do you think you would have come to realize the truth in the few short years you would have had left? Most wouldnt have had a chance until hundreds of years later when it became "accepted".

Absolutely! More so then than now. The early Christians were heavily persecuted by just about every faction or religious institution in vogue at the time and by the Roman government. Later, the persecution continued and the torture and murder of innocent Christians continued at the hands of the Roman church (the Dark Ages). Read Foxes Book of Martyrs if you have any doubts. Much Christian blood was spilt. That's when a Christian's faith was truly tested. Those who remained faithful were true Christians indeed. Now all anyone has to do is believe, skip the nonsensical rituals of baptism and communion then go to their favorite pub for a few drinks and some line dancing.

Well, again.. arguable. Lets look at some other abominations from the Bible:

I doubt very much that anything I said wouldn't be "arguable."

Of course, adultery (Lev 18:20), sex with animals (Lev 18:23), remarrying one's wife after she's had another husband in between (Deut 24:4), or approaching any woman during the time of her "uncleanness" (Lev 18:19). Cross-dressing is out (Deut 22:5), and that includes Halloween costumes, slacks on women, bib overalls on little girls, or a wife wearing her husband's favorite Oxford buttondown. And more on buttondowns in a moment.Other abominations include tarot readings, glancing at your horoscope, trimming one's beard, and getting a tattoo, even if it says, "Mom" (Lev 19:26-28). Haughty eyes (Prov 6:17) and telling lies (Prov 6:17, 12:22) are big abominations. Being untruthful also includes false weights and measures (Prov 11:1), or any other dishonesty in business. "Everyone who acts unjustly is an abomination to the LORD your God" (Prov 11:16).

Most of the above (accept a few that you made up) were unacceptable at one time. But Christians generally seek peace. You hear many of them say things like "can't we all just get along" or "can't we just accept others for who they are?" It's very common. The next thing that happens (in very, very small increments) is that Christians relax on one or another of their standards. It then becomes easier to "get along" and it's life becomes a little "easier" for the Christian. Then another little change occurs, then another, then another and ten years later, a community or a church lives by a set of rules slightly but significantly different than their parents did. You get the point. Look at life in America today vs. life in America in the 50s. Big difference. So it comes as no surprise that people today look at the rules of yesterday askance. If we were living in those times then the rules that everyone lived by wouldn't be a big deal at all. A Communist philosphy says, "two steps forward and one step back." They are willing to take a step back but it is always in preparation for the two steps forward. They have certainly made headway because they don't waver but remain focused and steadfast.

So in the eyes of the Lord, you are no better than an honest, Christian homosexual (And i mean that with absolutely no disrespect to you, ActionJackson, or to any homosexual on this planet)... it was just a point of referrence.

If you have nothing against homosexuality, then how could you have meant any disrespect. However, "Christian homosexual" is an oxymoron. A conflict in terms. If a homosexual repents of his sinful practice then he can certainly accept Christ and be forgiven. It would be like calling a killer a "Christian murderer." No such thing. However, I had a prison ministry for a long time and I know of some murderes who repented and became Christians. The thief crucified next to Jesus was forgiven.

DrJizzle:


"So in the eyes of the Lord, you are no better than a... Christian homosexual... it was just a point of referrence."

Saved or not, if you struggle with porn, or gluttony, or materialism, or anger, Etc. reminds us we still are flesh and blood [Romans 7] and it is the Lord to rely on, not "church" or "religion" or toeing the line, fearing breaking a single rule.

With all respect, is this what you mean?


Grace and Peace

A few different things here...

poppa0777, let me begin by saying thank you for your insight and especially for the change of tone to your last post. I do not mean to argue or be rude in any way and I try to keep the tone to my posts civil. Seeing as how that was your first post to me, I felt it came off a bit harsh. I have been attacked many times so forgive me for being a bit out of line in my previous response. I want you to know that I am not here to preach my beliefs. I keep my personal beliefs to myself. However, I will always question... everything.

ActionJackson First, that was just a clause to show show that this is just a discussion... I didn't want it to turn ugly. Beyond that, there are many churches that accept homosexuality. I can understand why. I can also understand how there are many that don't. For those that do not, what I want to understand is how is it justified. There are other things that are considered an abomination in the OT and yet I don't see any religious battles to preserve them. Where is the hierarchy listed? Using the same example as before (which has yet to be answered by anyone), how is it okay to approach a woman on her menstrual cycle when it is clearly stated not to? Why is it okay to eat pork/shellfish when the OT clearly states not to? I understand that they NT sort of reverse that one... but why does it? Why do they conflict? Masturbation is a good example... are you telling me that there is no such thing as a Christian masturbater? Or a Christian condom user? It is clearly written not to spill your seed.

inthebox ummmm... yes and no. yes, in the fact that it is the Lord to rely on... not the church... not your (the universal your) religion... but much more simple. No, in the sense that am I not necessarily stating that homosexuality is something to struggle with such as porn, gluttony, etc. Is it? As in my examples with ActionJackson, why is it not just something that has ended up being okay when other things continue to be repressed?

ActionJackson First, that was just a clause to show show that this is just a discussion... I didnt want it to turn ugly. Beyond that, there are many churches that accept homosexuality. I can understand why. I can also understand how there are many that dont. For those that do not, what I want to understand is how is it justified. There are other things that are considered an abomination in the OT and yet I dont see any religious battles to preserve them. Where is the hierarchy listed? Using the same example as before (which has yet to be answered by anyone), how is it okay to approach a woman on her menstrual cycle when it is clearly stated not to? Why is it okay to eat pork/shellfish when the OT clearly states not to? I understand that they NT sort of reverse that one... but why does it? Why do they conflict? Masturbation is a good example.... are you telling me that there is no such thing as a Christian masturbater? Or a Christian condom user? It is clearly written not to spill your seed.

I don't know of any churches that stand at the door of the church and say "no homosexuals are allowed." That's not to say that they don't exist but I don't personally know of any. I do, however, know of churches that teach that homosexuality is wrong and they base that teaching on the Bible. Of course sinners are allowed in a Christian church if their purpose for going is to learn God's Word and to better themselves and to seek a closer relationship with God. If I were a pastor of a church, I would want people to accept Christ and to repent of their sins. I think that's the primary goals or at least two of the primary goals of the Christian church as a whole. However, if someone came into my church and openly practiced their sinful lifestyle (whether it be pickpocketing or murder or homosexuality) I would have that person removed as he or she would be a distraction. I find it wholly wrong to have openly "gay" individuals leading a Christian church. That, in my opinion, is a mockery of the Christian religion.

Actually, I did touch on your "should someone approach a woman on her cylce" question. Like I said before, it is just as wrong today to break God's Laws as it was when He first had them written down. However, over time, Christians have relaxed and have allowed themselves to compromise their beliefs for the sake of "getting along" with non-believers who "just can't understand why this or that is against the rules." Christians have been backing up for many years on many fronts as the minions of Satan advance. We are in a spiritual battle; a battle of good vs. evil. Sounds simplistic but it's true nonetheless. A woman's cycle is a time for cleansing and it's best to let her be during that time period (for a couple of reasons that I can think of). As for pork and shellfish, I don't eat either for a couple of reasons. 1) Out of obedience to God's law and 2) After asking myself why God would make such a law (I was raised eating pork) I began to study the issue and found that pork, catfish, shellfish, etc. are vacuum cleaners designed to eat up dead and decaying matter. There are, however, many New-Testament-only Christians who truly believe that God changed His mind on that issue, flip-flopped, and decided all-of-a-sudden that pork was now clean and was no longer a vacuum cleaner. Clearly, I'm not in that camp.

It's NOT okay to "spill your seed." If a person uses self control and uses his plumbing for the purpose that God intended, then there wouldn't be any spilling of seed. The "spilling of seed" comes as a result of a person's imaginations; the lust of the eyes; the lust of the flesh; and the pride of life. "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever." I John 2:16,17 If a person is lost in the sins which you describe I urge them to overcome thier sin through prayer and self control. God will forgive you if you ask Him and seek diligently to overcome.