Are the 10 Commandments still valid today? [Archive]

ActionJackson

Jun 4, 2007, 04:50 AM

Where is the business about the 10 commandments being nailed to the cross?? I'm pretty sure that Moses obtained 10 Commandments written on stone tablets from Mt Sinai. I'm sure it would be a "miracle" to nail them to the cross without damaging them-and anyway, for what gain? P.S. I'm studying for my Certificate in Christian Studies. I thought I had a reasonable idea... Cheers

Those who state or believe that "the ten Commandments" were nailed to the cross don't mean it in a literal sense but rather in a figurative sense. They're assertion, I believe, is that man lived by the Law of God prior to Christ's death but are under grace as a result of that death and are no longer bound by the Law.

The point that I am trying to make or will try to make is that the term "the law" has several meanings. 1) There are the physical laws of nature i.e. law of gravity, laws of thermal dynamics, etc. 2) The laws performed by the Levitical priesthood which required animal sacrifices and burnt offerings, etc. And 3) the moral Laws of God as summarized by the 10 Commandments.

Clearly we are still bound by the law of gravity, so that law was not "nailed to the cross."
We are free from the need for animal sacrifice and offerings as Jesus Christ was the ultimate sacrifice as the perfect Lamb of God and the final offering as His death was more than sufficient and His blood was the payment for the sins of the world forever. But there are Christians who don't believe that we are bound to the Law that was written in stone or the Ten Commandments.

My original question and the purpose of this thread is to determine whether a Christian must still recognize the moral Laws of God in their daily lives.

shygrneyzs

Jun 4, 2007, 06:39 AM

"My original question and the purpose of this thread is to determine whether or not a Christian must still recognize the moral Laws of God in their daily lives"

To answer, yes, a Christian must still recognize the moral Laws of God in their daily lives. Many of those commandments are legal laws - Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not commit murder. Slander is against the law, so is libel (Thou shalt not bear false witness).

The Ten Commandments were not nailed to the Cross. I think what people really mean is that the Halakhah (the path or way of walking) , which is the collective body of Jewish religious law, including biblical law (the 613 mitzvot) and later talmudic and rabbinic law as well as customs and traditions. Halakha guides not only religious practices and beliefs, but numerous aspects of day-to-day life.

You can read more about that from:
bible.org: The Mosaic Law: Its Function and Purpose in the New Testament (http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=880)
Jesus and the Mosaic Law (http://www.carmical.net/articles/moses.html)

RickJ

Jun 4, 2007, 10:02 AM

ActionJackson agrees: Right on the money. However, the discussion is fruitful if it clears up the matter in someone's mind.

Just to clarify: I did not say what I said regarding you asking or discussing it, I said it really in reference to the ones that I've seen more than once staunchly insisting, as Christians, that we are NOT under the law... any of them... which to me is a bit silly in that agreed, we are not under the law like the Jews were back then but we're still obligated to many of them.

I don't feel obligated to refrain from cutting my sideburns but I am certainly obligated to not lie, kill someone, commit adultery, etc.

Lacey5765

Jun 4, 2007, 01:07 PM

It is interesting that this post come up because I had a similar disucssion about the commandment of keeping the Sabbath day holy. My daughters's boyfriend says that we don't need to obey that one because it was only written once? This is what his church preaches. IS this common in other churches today?

shygrneyzs

Jun 4, 2007, 02:49 PM

I typed too fast in my response to you, Lacey. I wanted to say, no, it is not common in the churches I am familiar with. Am sorry I left out the vital word, "not".

ActionJackson

Jun 4, 2007, 07:21 PM

Just to clarify: I did not say what I said regarding you asking or discussing it, I said it really in reference to the ones that I've seen more than once staunchly insisting, as Christians, that we are NOT under the law...any of them...which to me is a bit silly in that agreed, we are not under the law like the Jews were back then but we're still obligated to many of them. I don't feel obligated to refrain from cutting my sideburns but I am certainly obligated to not lie, kill someone, commit adultery, etc.

Exactly. We are no longer under the laws of the Levitical priesthood called the laws of sacrifice and offerings as Jesus Christ was the ultimate Sacrifice and the final Offering. However, the Levitical priesthood affected not only the Jews (tribe of Judah) but all twelve tribes of Israel. Many people make the mistake of using the term "Jew" in reference to the Israelites. Someone of the tribe of Judah was an Israelite but not all Israelites were of the tribe of Judah. Anyway, back to the main subject. We are not under the sacrificial laws but we are all bound by the moral Laws which are summarized in the 10 Commandments.

ActionJackson

Jun 7, 2007, 06:26 PM

It is interesting that this post come up because I had a similiar disucssion about the commandment of keeping the Sabbath day holy. My daughters's boyfriend says that we don't need to obey that one becuase it was only written once?? This is what his church preaches. IS this common in other churches today?

The Fourth Commandment to "keep the Sabbath holy" is still very valid for today. It is a Commandment by God. Even God, Himself, rested on the 7th day. God made an example of Himself. There are some good reasons we should keep the 4th Commandment. One, it gives us an opportunity to rest our bodies. We live in a fast food world where we are always on the move and we are always moving fast. Our bodies need the rest to rejuvenate. Also, it's hard to worship God and focus on Him when we are always working or shopping or playing or preparing to do one of the above. The 7th day rest allows us to open our Bibles and read God's Word and to pray. I take several small naps when I observe the Sabbath.

Is it common to ignore the Sabbath day of rest in other churches? I believe, unfortunately, that it is pretty common. There are a few churches that do keep and observe the Sabbath though. Though I am not a Seventh Day Adventist, I must give a lot of credit to this Church for not only do they take the Sabbath day seriously, they know what day it actually falls on... the 7th day or Saturday. To learn more about what is required of a Christian concerning the Sabbath, check out a 7th Day Adventist site.

Lacey5765

Jun 8, 2007, 06:00 AM

Wondergirl

Jun 8, 2007, 04:26 PM

Christians aren't bound to the Law as much that they are to use the Ten Commandments as a guide for living. They were given to Moses in the Old Testament.

The Ten Commandments are "thou shalt not"s--negatives. In the New Testament, Jesus turned them into positives and summed them up into only two: Love God and love your neighbor. (The Ten Commandments have two sections: how to live a good life as regards God and how to live a good life as regards one's neighbor.)

As for the INRI -- it's an acronym of the Latin phrase IESVS NAZARENVS REX IVDAEORVM [Jesus Nazarenus Rex Iudaeorum] which translates to English as: "Jesus the Nazarene, the King of the Jews". The Latin word for king is "rex", There's no "J" in Latin. The letter "I" was used instead. There was no "U" either. "V" was used instead. "Iudaeorum" is the possessive, "of the Jews".

(Many thanks to Miss Wooster and 3 years of high school Latin!)

Lacey5765

Jun 8, 2007, 04:53 PM

DOn't agree with you wondergirl unless by "bound" you mean forced. WE are not forced to do anything in this life. WE have our agency to choose good or evil. But if you mean the commandments are just a suggestion I strongly disagree. THe commandments were given to us by a loving Heavenly Father as a means to return to him. These are the attributes that HE and Christ have and we should strive to have those same qualities ourselves. It is a way to better ourselves and keep us safe from sin.

Wondergirl

Jun 8, 2007, 05:05 PM

ActionJackson

Jun 8, 2007, 06:42 PM

You don't have to persuade me Action. I do practice the Sabbath day. The Latterday Saints also preach to keep the Sabbath Day Holy. The discussion came about after my daughter said she was going to a movie and I reminded her of our (and her previous) beliefs that going to the movies was not in keeping with the Sabbath. That is when she said that her boyfriend's church ( that she is thinking of joining) said that that commandment was only written once so it wasn't binding today. I expressed that we don't get to choose which commandments to obey but should try to live them all.

I see. You're right, we can't pick just those parts of Scripture that mesh with our personal wants and discard the parts of the Bible that are inconvenient. Actually, there are a lot of Sabbath keepers that don't really know what is required on the Sabbath day. No buying or selling or working or cooking. It is a strict day of rest. I will admit that I fall short of keeping a perfect Sabbath. I battle with myself all the time. Sometimes I will do well then I fall. The problem I have is that I don't know a single individual in my new environment who keeps a Sabbath... not even a little bit. I believe that fellowship with like-minded people adds strength to the whole. Anyway, there are New Testament verses that describe Jesus and the Apostles observing the Sabbath day.

ActionJackson

Jun 8, 2007, 06:49 PM

[QUOTE=Wondergirl]Christians aren't bound to the Law as much that they are to use the Ten Commandments as a guide for living.
The Ten Commandments are "thou shalt not"s--negatives. In the New Testament, Jesus turned them into positives and summed them up into only two: Love God and love your neighbor. (The Ten Commandments have two sections: how to live a good life as regards God and how to live a good life as regards one's neighbor.)

QUOTE]

I see what you are saying but I disagree. Like I said in an earlier post, I fall too often when trying to keep the 4th Commandment. However, I am bound to keep it. Fortunately, I have a forgiving Saviour and with His help, I will overcome my weakness.

I also agree that the 1st 5 Commandments deal with our vertical relationship with God and the other 5 deal with our horizontal relationship with mankind. However, how can we love God if we just sort of not believe in idols. We MUST not believe in idols to truly love God. How can we "love our neighbors" if we only steal sometimes but not all the time. To love our neighbors, we must NEVER steal from our neighbors. His Laws are absolutes.

ordinaryguy

Jun 8, 2007, 06:50 PM

Is it common to ignore the Sabbath day of rest in other churches? I believe, unfortunately, that it is pretty common. There are a few churches that do keep and observe the Sabbath though. Though I am not a Seventh Day Adventist, I must give a lot of credit to this Church for not only do they take the Sabbath day seriously, they know what day it actually falls on...the 7th day or Saturday. To learn more about what is required of a Christian concerning the Sabbath, check out a 7th Day Adventist site.
I'm with you on this one, AJ. This topic was hashed over on a different thread, starting with this post (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/return-jesus-christ-63296-5.html#post342456). My statement that it seems inconsistent to insist that only nine of the ten commandments are still binding on Christians was met with ridicule (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/return-jesus-christ-63296-5.html#post342583) and greek lessons (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/return-jesus-christ-63296-6.html#post345675), all concluding that the fourth commandment, alone among the ten, has been amended and updated by virtue of the fact that Jesus' resurrection happened to occur on a Sunday. That Sunday was the day of worship for the Roman sun god cults was apparently just a happy coincidence that made it easier for the early Christians to gain converts and differentiate themselves from the rebellious Jewish sects that were giving the Roman authorities grief and inviting repression and persecution.

ActionJackson

Jun 8, 2007, 06:58 PM

God gave us Jesus, not the Ten Commandments, as the way to return to Him. The Commandments must be obeyed perfectly if they are our means to salvation. The OT says this loud and clear. Only Jesus has ever obeyed them perfectly.

As I said, the Commandments are a guide for our lives, and not a way to salvation.

What is sin? How would you define the word sin? I define it as it is stated in the Holy Bible: "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

If we are not under the law, then there is nothing to transgress. If there is nothing to transgress, then there is no sin. If there is no sin, then there is nothing to be saved from. If there is nothing to be saved from, then there is no need for Jesus Christ's death on the cross.

If we do need Jesus Christ, then it is because we need to be saved. If we need to be saved, then there is something to be saved from. If that something is sin, then we transgressed the law for sin is the transgression of the law. If we transgressed the law, then the law is in force and valid.

ActionJackson

Jun 8, 2007, 07:07 PM

I'm with you on this one, AJ. This topic was hashed over on a different thread, starting with this post (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/return-jesus-christ-63296-5.html#post342456). My statement that it seems inconsistent to insist that only nine of the ten commandments are still binding on Christians was met with ridicule (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/return-jesus-christ-63296-5.html#post342583) and greek lessons (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/return-jesus-christ-63296-6.html#post345675), all concluding that the fourth commandment, alone among the ten, has been amended and updated by virtue of the fact that Jesus' resurrection happened to occur on a Sunday. That Sunday was the day of worship for the Roman sun god cults was apparently just a happy coincidence that made it easier for the early Christians to gain converts and differentiate themselves from the rebellious Jewish sects that were giving the Roman authorities grief and inviting repression and persecution.

You're exactly right. Constantine, emperor of Rome, was a sun worshipper. When he finally realized that the Christians could not be stopped with torture, threats, and death, he changed tactics and "legalized" Christianity. He ended up creating a state religion that incorporated many of the beliefs of the mainstream religions of the day. The 7th day Sabbath was changed to Sun Day. This "new" religion was the precursor to what became the Roman church of the dark ages. Bible believing Christians were horrendously persecuted throughout this period in history.

Wondergirl

Jun 8, 2007, 09:06 PM

Wangdoodle

Jun 8, 2007, 09:24 PM

You're exactly right. Constantine, emperor of Rome, was a sun worshipper. When he finally realized that the Christians could not be stopped with torture, threats, and death, he changed tactics and "legalized" Christianity. He ended up creating a state religion that incorporated many of the beliefs of the mainstream religions of the day. The 7th day Sabbath was changed to Sun Day. This "new" religion was the precursor to what became the Roman church of the dark ages. Bible believing Christians were horrendously persecuted throughout this period in history.

Just please don't say Constantine was the first Pope. ;)

ActionJackson

Jun 9, 2007, 04:43 AM

Jesus and his disciples were Jews doing what good Jews did in observing the Sabbath. Christians are no longer under the laws of the OT, especially the social, dietary, etc. laws; Jesus' death has freed them. Christians named Sunday as the new Sabbath, to honor and observe the day Jesus rose from the dead.

"If we transgressed the law, then the law is in force and valid." Yes, we transgressed since no one can keep the law perfectly, but Jesus, who HAD kept the law perfectly, has erased that sin off our account. Because of Jesus' sacrifice, we are no longer under the law. We now live in Love, not under Law.

If we are no longer under the law, then we can no longer sin for there is nothing to transgress (break). Is it okay to murder? Is it okay to covet your neighbor's belongings? Etc.

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:18 & 19 (From the lips of Christ Himself)

If you believe that a "commandment" from God is law, then Christ says that the law is in force and that not a jot or tittle (dotted i or crossed t so-to-speak) will be removed until all is fulfilled. Not all is fulfilled yet. The events of Daniel and Revelation are still to come and this earth age is not at its end yet. If you teach that the law is done away with then, in essence, you give young Christians the "okay" to break them. By doing that you run the risk of being called "the least" in the Kingdom of Heaven.

A person probably won't be comdemned to hell for breaking the food laws but they will live a healthier life if they observe them. God didn't just sit around thinking of unnecessary rules for people to follow for no good reason. He had and has good reason for telling us what foods are good to eat and which are not. He knows the human body better than you or I do. He knows how the organs work. He knows what foods will provide the best possible nutrition.

ordinaryguy

Jun 9, 2007, 04:45 AM

Christians are no longer under the laws of the OT, especially the social, dietary, etc. laws; Jesus' death has freed them.
Are you saying that there is no moral difference between the ten commandments and the ceremonial laws, and therefore NONE of the ten comandments are binding on Christians today? Surely most politically conservative Christians don't believe this, or they wouldn't get in such a lather about whether and where the ten commandments can be publicly displayed.

Christians named Sunday as the new Sabbath, to honor and observe the day Jesus rose from the dead.
How soon after Jesus' resurrection do you think this happened? If it was immediately after, why do the New Testament writers make so little mention of it? It surely would have been controversial, since there was a major difference of opinion among the disciples about whether Jesus was the Jewish messiah and his message was mainly for the Jews, or whether he was the savior of the whole world whose message was for everyone. The Jews-only faction would surely have opposed abandoning the Jewish Sabbath, as important as it was within Jewish culture and ritual.

I think this explanation for the change is a pleasant sounding fiction. Far more likely, it was a concession to expedience that came much later as a way to make it easier to gain converts and escape persecution.

ActionJackson

Jun 9, 2007, 04:47 AM

Just please don't say Constantine was the first Pope. ;)

I didn't say that and won't because I know he's not listed in the Catholic records as such. However, he did set himself up as a sort of a head spiritual as well as political leader. He could be seen as an early blueprint for what Popes would become.

ActionJackson

Jun 9, 2007, 04:54 AM

Are you saying that there is no moral difference between the ten commandments and the cerimonial laws, and therefore NONE of the ten comandments are binding on Christians today? Surely most politically conservative Christians don't believe this, or they wouldn't get in such a lather about whether and where the ten commandments can be publicly displayed.

.

Exactly. If there was a plaque that boldly stated, "Thou shalt not eat pork" or "Thou shalt not burn bulls within 50 feet of the Washington Monument" then people would just kind of snicker and head to the local Starbucks but if someone dare put the 10 Commandments on public display, the wrath of our humanist, socialist, atheist, evolutionist "friends" in the ACLU comes unravelled.

Hope12

Jun 9, 2007, 05:00 AM

Hello,

I personally say we are not under the ten commandments. Please allow me to explain why I give this answer.

It was in the year 1513 B.C.E. that God’s finger wrote on stone. Since then the Ten Commandments have been copied by men and spread around the world. Hundreds of millions of people have read them, and many know them by heart. There is probably no other set of laws that has received such widespread attention. The question is, are the Ten Commandments still in force so that Christians must obey them?

First we must think about who the ten commandments were intended for. God gave the Ten Commandments to the people that were known as Israelites. In his opening words, he made clear that it was to this one nation he spoke: “I am Jehovah” (God’s name, YHWY) your God, who have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slaves.” This indicates that the Ten Commandments were designed to be part of a national law code. Exodus 20:2.

Now the question may arise, how were they passed on to all Christians today? Were the Ten Commandments of such universal nature that they would always be in force and apply also to non-Israelites? I personally believe the answer to be, No. Why? Centuries later when the Christian congregation was formed, this Law code was not passed on to it. Why? Because the Bible says that “Christ is the end of the Law.” Romans 10:4
What does that mean? Think about this, back in 1912 the outdoor high-jump world record was 6 feet 7 inches. Later, in the late 80’s, the record was 7 feet 11 1/2 inches. There must, be an ultimate limit to how high a human can jump over a bar supported by two posts. The champion who reaches this limit will end all high-jump world records. He could also be said to be “the end” of them. Now, how might this apply to the Ten Commandments?
When God formed “the Law,” which embraced the Ten Commandments together with over 600 other laws and statutes, and gave it to the Israelites, he set the ultimate goal or standard of perfection. He put the bar at the highest level, so to speak. This divine Law was of such a high standard of morality that only a perfect human could reach it.
Ecclesiastes 7:20 says: “There is no man righteous in the earth that keeps doing good and does not sin.”
That bar, so to speak, God’s s righteous standard, was put too high for the imperfect Israelites, or Jews. Why? The Christian apostle Paul explains: “It (meaning the law) was added to make transgressions manifest, until the seed (Messiah, or Christ) should arrive to whom the promise had been made.” Galatians 3:19
By the Law, God showed the Jews that they were all imperfect transgressors, unable to reach the goal of being declared righteous because of their own works.
There was only one who could pass over that bar: the coming promised Messiah, or Christ. Therefore, that high standard was put before the Jews as something to aim at while looking forward to the final Champion, the Messiah, to pass over it once and for all.
The ten commandments was leading to the Christ. The apostle Paul continues in the third chapter of Galatians, verse 24: “Consequently the Law has become our tutor leading to Christ, that we might be declared righteous due to faith.” A tutor in Bible times accompanied the child to its teacher and could also instruct and discipline the child.
The Ten Commandments, as well as the rest of the Law, would prepare the Jews for the Messiah and guide them to him. When Jesus came, lived among them, and died perfectly obedient to the Law, he became “the end of the Law.” Then God removed that bar, as it were, and offered the Jews something better. Now they could “as a free gift” finally be “declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom paid by Christ Jesus.” Romans 3:24.
Paul also says, “You are not under law but under undeserved kindness” and, “If you are being led by spirit, you are not under law.” Romans 6:14; Galatians 5:18.

So if Christians are no longer under the ten commandments what is a Christian obey today? Christians are not “under law,” are they then freed from all moral restraints? Not at all. As Paul showed, Christians are being led by God’s holy spirit, and it does not lead anyone into sin. It urges them to stay away also from sins dealt with in the Ten Commandments. For example, if you read 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10, you will find several Christian laws that are similar to some of the Ten Commandments. They are the prohibitions against idolatry, adultery, stealing, and covetousness.

Christ also summed up the old Law code, which included the Ten Commandments, with these two dictums: “You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind” and, “You must love your neighbor as yourself.” Matthew 22:37-39.By striving to obey them, asking for forgiveness when falling short, and exercising faith in Christ’s ransom, you will get undeserved kindness from God and His approval for eternal life. Thessalonians 2:16.

In conclusion, we are no longer under the ten commandments as the Israelites were, but when Christ died so did the laws of that covenant. Then a new covenant was to be in place. We as Christians are under the “law of Christ.”
Just as prospective citizens of a country abide by the laws of their new land, Christ’s subjects submit themselves to “the law of the Christ” by harmonizing their lives with all that Jesus taught and commanded. Galatians 6:2 In particular, they loyally live by “the kingly law” of love. James 2:8

Christ’s subjects are not free of imperfections and failings. Romans 3:23 They need to keep cultivating “un-hypocritical brotherly affection” so as to “love one another intensely from the heart.” 1 Peter 1:22 “If anyone has a cause for complaint against another,” Christians loyally apply the law of the Christ by “putting up with one another and forgiving one another freely.” Obeying this law helps them to keep overlooking imperfections and to find reasons to love one another. Do you not appreciate being with those who in loyal submission to our loving King clothe themselves with love, the “perfect bond of union”?Colossians 3:13, 14.

Christian follower’s of Christ are no longer under the ten commandments however the principles of those commandments are still obeyed in the sense that as Christians with deep love for God and others, and our obedience to the “law of Christ”, we cover not only the “Law of Christ” but also the principles of the ten commandments.

Take care.
Hope12

ActionJackson

Jun 9, 2007, 05:27 AM

Hello, First we must think about who the ten commandments were intended for. Now the question may arise, how were they passed on to all Christians today? “Christ is the end of the Law.” Romans 10:4 Ecclesiastes 7:20 says: “There is no man righteous in the earth that keeps doing good and does not sin.” There was only one who could pass over that bar: the coming promised Messiah, or Christ. Therefore, that high standard was put before the Jews as something to aim at while looking forward to the final Champion, the Messiah, to pass over it once and for all.
The ten commandments was leading to the Christ. The apostle Paul continues in the third chapter of Galatians, verse 24: “Consequently the Law has become our tutor leading to Christ, that we might be declared righteous due to faith.” A tutor in Bible times accompanied the child to its teacher and could also instruct and discipline the child.
The Ten Commandments, as well as the rest of the Law, would prepare the Jews for the Messiah and guide them to him. When Jesus came, lived among them, and died perfectly obedient to the Law, he became “the end of the Law.” Paul also says, “You are not under law but under undeserved kindness” and, “If you are being led by spirit, you are not under law.” Romans 6:14; Galatians 5:18. So if Christians are no longer under the ten commandments what is a Christian obey today? Christians are not “under law,” are they then freed from all moral restraints? Not at all. As Paul showed, Christians are being led by God’s holy spirit, and it does not lead anyone into sin. It urges them to stay away also from sins dealt with in the Ten Commandments. For example, if you read 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10, you will find several Christian laws that are similar to some of the Ten Commandments. They are the prohibitions against idolatry, adultery, stealing, and covetousness. “You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind” and, “You must love your neighbor as yourself.” Matthew 22:37-39.By striving to obey them, asking for forgiveness when falling short, and exercising faith in Christ’s ransom, you will get undeserved kindness from God and His approval for eternal life. Thessalonians 2:16. Christian follower’s of Christ are no longer under the ten commandments however the principles of those commandments are still obeyed in the sense that as Christians with deep love for God and others, and our obedience to the “law of Christ”, we cover not only the “Law of Christ” but also the principles of the ten commandments. Take care.
Hope12

Either we are under the moral Law of God or we are not under the moral Law of God. Your post suggests that we are both free from the moral Law of God and that we are yet under the moral Law of God. If we are to follow the "principles" of the Law, the we are under the Law. If we are free from the Law of God, then there is no need to follow the principles of that Law. For the principles of the Law of God is what the Law of God is. If, as you say, the "Christian laws" tell us to do the same thing as the 10 Commandments, then the Laws are one and the same for God changes not. He and His Word are the same yesterday, today, and forever.

The question isn't really "who" the moral Laws were written for but why were they written. The purpose for the Law was to set a standard by which all men should strive to achieve. It's as important for a non-Israelite to honor his mother and father as it is for an Israelite to do so. It's as important for a non-Israelite to refrain from stealing or murdering as it is for and Israelite to do the same.

True, no mortal man can follow the Law perfectly. By not following the law perfectly, man sins for sin is the transgression of the Law of God. That's why Christ took on flesh and walked among men. He fulfilled the sacrificial Laws once and for all when He sacrificed Himself on the cross for the sins (Law transgressions) of the world (not just Israelites).

As for the two greatests commandments that we should love God and love our neighbors... how do we do that? By making sure we don't put false gods before Jehovah God; by honoring our mothers and fathers; by observing the Sabbath; my not committing adultery; etc.

ActionJackson

Jun 9, 2007, 05:39 AM

Christian follower’s of Christ are no longer under the ten commandments however the principles of those commandments are still obeyed in the sense that as Christians with deep love for God and others, and our obedience to the “law of Christ”, we cover not only the “Law of Christ” but also the principles of the ten commandments.

Hope12

Are the principles of the 10 Commandments (the Law of God) in conflict with the "law of Christ?"
Do the Laws of God compliment the "law of Christ.?
In your opinion, is God and Christ one and the same?
Is the "law of Christ" law?
If we are under the "law of Christ" are we under the law?
If we are under Christ's law are we under God's law?
Is there one God or are there two Gods?
Which is a better scenario: A man who strives to reach perfection by attempting to follow God's Law or a man who does not attempt to reach perfection by following God's Law?

Lacey5765

Jun 9, 2007, 07:22 AM

How about this idea? The account of the Commandments is from an Israelites perspetive. So wouldn't it be that the recording would address them? It isn't an exclusionary statement that the commandments were only for them. We LDS believe that the commandments were restated to Joseph Smith in the Doctrine and Covenants:Doctrine and Covenants 59
5 Wherefore, I give unto them a commandment, saying thus: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy might, mind, and strength; and in the name of Jesus Christ thou shaltcserve him.
6 Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Thou shalt not steal; neither commit adultery, nor kill, nor do anything like unto it.
7 Thou shalt thank the Lord thy God in all things.
8 Thou shalt offer a sacrifice unto the Lord thy God in righteousness, even that of a broken heart and a contrite spirit.
9 And that thou mayest more fully keep thyself unspotted from the world, thou shalt go to the house of prayer and offer up thy sacraments upon my holy day;
10 For verily this is a day appointed unto you to rest from your labors, and to pay thy devotions unto the Most High;
11 Nevertheless thy vows shall be offered up in righteousness on all days and at all times;
12 But remember that on this, the Lord's day, thou shalt offer thine oblations and thy sacraments unto the Most High, confessing thy sins unto thy brethren, and before the Lord.
13 And on this day thou shalt do none other thing, only let thy food be prepared with singleness of heart that thy fasting may be perfect, or, in other words, that thy joy may be full.
14 Verily, this is fasting and prayer, or in other words, rejoicing and prayer.
15 And inasmuch as ye do these things with thanksgiving, with cheerful hearts and countenances, not with much laughter, for this is sin, but with a glad heart and a cheerful countenance—
16 Verily I say, that inasmuch as ye do this, the fulness of the earth is yours, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which climbeth upon the trees and walketh upon the earth;
17 Yea, and the herb, and the good things which come of the earth, whether for food or for raiment, or for houses, or for barns, or for orchards, or for gardens, or for vineyards;
18 Yea, all things which come of the earth, in the season thereof, are made for the benefit and the use of man, both to please the eye and to gladden the heart;
19 Yea, for food and for raiment, for taste and for smell, to strengthen the body and to enliven the soul.
20 And it pleaseth God that he hath given all these things unto man; for unto this end were they made to be used, with judgment, not to excess, neither by extortion.
21 And in nothing doth man offend God, or against none is his wrath kindled, save those who confess not his hand in all things, and obey not his commandments.

ActionJackson

Jun 9, 2007, 09:31 AM

[QUOTE=Lacey5765]How about this idea? The account of the Commandments is from an Israelites perspetive. So wouldn't it be that the recording would address them? It isn't an exclusionary statement that the commandments were only for them. QUOTE]

My first marriage was to a Mormon (she called herself a "jack Mormon" which, apparently, meant "someone raised in the Mormon church but who liked to party a lot." We were both very young and did a lot of drinking and other unsavory activities. Anyhow, I lived in Logan and Ogden, Utah in the middle of Mormon country. I used to party at a little bar in a town called Midway. I worked in Centerville for awhile. Although I am not LDS I knew a number of very good and upright individuals who were. We stayed at my wife's parents' house for awhile and they were very gracious towards me even though I was living an ungodly life. They lived by a high moral standard; were helpful to their neighbors; prayed before every meal; kept the Sabbath day holy and rested (accept to feed the livestock). I was impressed by their lifestyle and I'm sure that they influenced me in more ways than I know. I do have trouble with adding to or taking away from the Holy Bible though. I've never known them to take away from the Bible but they have added to it. I believe that the Bible is sufficient. My opinion. Nothing against the Mormons personally.

ordinaryguy

Jun 9, 2007, 10:06 AM

15 And inasmuch as ye do these things with thanksgiving, with cheerful hearts and countenances, not with much laughter, for this is sin, but with a glad heart and a cheerful countenance—
This puts me in mind of what a friend of mine who has bipolar disorder said about how to get out of the mental hospital after a manic episode: "I learned you got to be happy, but not too happy".

ordinaryguy

Jun 9, 2007, 10:17 AM

Christian follower's of Christ are no longer under the ten commandments however the principles of those commandments are still obeyed in the sense that as Christians with deep love for God and others, and our obedience to the “law of Christ”, we cover not only the “Law of Christ” but also the principles of the ten commandments.
So am I right to conclude that with regard to the fourth comamdment specifically, you would say that worshipping on Sunday (or Tuesday, for that matter) follows "the principles" of the comandment just as well as worshipping on Saturday does? Even though the commandment itself explains why the seventh day is designated: "For in six days, the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day, wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it"? Nothing about Jesus' life, death or resurrection changed any of that did it?

Retrotia

Jun 9, 2007, 06:48 PM

So am I right to conclude that with regard to the fourth comamdment specifically, you would say that worshipping on Sunday (or Tuesday, for that matter) follows "the principles" of the comandment just as well as worshipping on Saturday does? Even though the commandment itself explains why the seventh day is designated: "For in six days, the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day, wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it"? Nothing about Jesus' life, death or resurrection changed any of that did it?

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. The Apostles met on the first day of the week.

This question about the Sabbath rest was addressed last month here. The Greek text calls the Sabbath -the first day of the week.

ActionJackson

Jun 9, 2007, 07:34 PM

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. The Apostles met on the first day of the week. This question about the Sabbath rest was addressed last month here. The Greek text calls the Sabbath -the first day of the week.

The word "sabbath" when used in the New Testament almost always refers to the seventh day of the week. There were times when it was used to describe the first day of the week but the deeper meaning of the word meant "to meet the first day after the sabbath." See the Thayer Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament word #4521. The numbers used in Thayers Lexicons of the Old and New Testament are coded to Strongs number system as found in the Strong's Exhuastive Concordance.

Although the monthly cycles have been altered from time to time on various calendars, the weekly cycle has remained constant throughout history.

God, Himself, rested on the seventh day and called it a holy day.

"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh day; wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it" Exodus 20:8-11

If we, mere mortal man, can alter God's 4th Command, then we can change any of His commands to suit our whims.

Take note of these important warnings:
"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book." "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." Revelation 22:18-19

"Every word of God is pure: He is a shield unto them that put their trust in Him. Add thou not unto His words, Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." Proverb 30:5-6

"What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminsh from it." Deuteronomy 12:32

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:8

Retrotia

Jun 10, 2007, 07:43 AM

ActionJackson

Jun 10, 2007, 10:01 AM

Alter? Suit my own whim? I'll pretend I didn't read that lest I have to pretend you offered an apology.
While the day of rest, the Sabbath day, held significance to the people of Israel, the first day of the week holds special meaning to Christians. It was on the first day of the week that our Lord rose from the grave. "Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him. Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen. ... Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He is risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid Him" (Mark 16:1-2, 6; see also Luke 24:1; John 20:1). And the Lord's church was established on the day of Pentecost, which always falls on the first day of the week (Acts 2:1ff). Hence, the first day of the week became known as "the Lord's Day." "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet" (Revelation 1:10).

I said "if we, mortal men." I did not say if "you, Retrotia." I will pretend I apologized for a pretend reason.

The first day of the week holds special meaning to "some" Christians if they consider it the Sabbath day. It's a work day for others. It's special to all Christians if that day is used to get together and discuss Christianity and to fellowship with one another. That doesn't mean that we aren't bound by the 4th Commandment to rest on the 7th day.

If Christ was already gone "early in the morning" of the first day, then He must have rose from the dead at some point prior to early in the morning on the first day. But even if for a certainty He did rise on the first day, then His body must still have been at rest on the seventh day.

I agree that Pentecost is the birthday of the Christian Church. It was the first day when the Apostolic Church began the "work" of preaching the gospel and gaining membership to God's Kingdom. It was not a shift in the Sabbath observance. Meeting on the first day is not synonymous with resting on the 7th.

Tessy777

Jun 10, 2007, 06:32 PM

I hear some Christians say that God's Law or the 10 Commandments were nailed to the cross. Some say that we need to focus on Christ and stop focusing on the rules or the laws or the Old Testament. I believe that the laws of sacrificial offerings and animal sacrifices were nailed to the cross at the time of Christ's death but that we are still bound by the moral Laws or the 10 Commandments. I mean, is Thou shalt not steal one of the Laws that was nailed to the cross? What do you think?
Of course the 10 commandments are still valid!! Can we keep them? NO! Do I want and try to keep them... YES! Did Jesus fulfill the ENTIRE law... YES! Is his sacrifice enough? MORE THAN ENOUGH! Anyone who says that the 10 commandments aren't valid doesn't understand that GOD never changes. He simply rescues!

Capuchin

Jun 11, 2007, 09:03 AM

Tessy, why did you disagree with me? You seem to agree with me in your last post. I really don't understand?

Tessy777

Jun 11, 2007, 10:24 AM

I'm not sure how I disagree with you. We aren't under the law! If that is what you mean. I can't KEEP the commandments to get saved. Jesus fulfilled the law. therefore he was able to be my perfect sacrifice.. do we throw the 10 commandments out? Nope but can we keep them for salvation.. nope. Jesus is our only hope. They are morally correct. What Christian could dispute that? Do I make sense to you now?

OK, I went back and read. You think that the 10 commandments are more valid now. They are always valid. It is a good moral code to live by. I disagreed with you because keeping them won't help you out in eternity. In other words, at the Great White Throne, God ISN'T going to say... well he did TRY to keep the commandments. He is going to say... What did you do with my Son... JESUS!? (btw.. sorry for any confusion)

NeedKarma

Jun 11, 2007, 10:30 AM

Tessy,
No you do not make sense at all. You say keep the commandments yet that's what Capuchin said as well.?

Tessy777

Jun 11, 2007, 10:38 AM

OK... let me clarify myself then. The commandments are not going to save anyone. Only Jesus can. As a Christian, I WANT to follow the commandments... but doing so won't save me. Yes it is a good moral code, yes he should follow them if he wants a better life HERE but it won't help for eternity. That is what I meant. (sorry, I plead blonde here... )

Capuchin

Jun 11, 2007, 10:39 AM

saraispiel19

Jun 11, 2007, 10:40 AM

Well α lot of the 10 c's αre definαtely hαrder αnd hαrder to follow through these dαys:

You shαll hαve no other Gods but me: we hαve our αdored celebrities thαt some people αre wαααyy to crαzy αbout, ipods... money... ect!!
You shαll not mαke for yourself αny idol, nor bow down to it or worship it: αgαin with the money αnd ipods.. we might not bow to it but we certαinly love our new shiny cαrs
You shαll not misuse the nαme of the Lord your God: hmm ever heαrd αnyone sαy "JESUS CHRIST!" I αm guilty
You shαll remember αnd keep the Sαbbαth dαy holy: I'm pretty sure α lot of people hαve done bαd things on sundαy.
Respect your fαther αnd mother: I'm pretty sure shut up isn't α respectful thing to sαy but we've αll been αccused of disrespecting the 'rents..
You must not kill: it's α crime however people still do it but it hαs not become α regulαr sort of thing.. thαnk god
You must not commit αdultery: do we not hαve posts of cheαting wives & husbαnds...
You must not steαl: everyone hαs stolen something..
You must not give fαlse evidence αgαinst your neighbour: lying for your friends could contribute to this or telling someone αbout the b!tch in the office of whαt α hoe she is αlso contributes..
You must not be envious of your neighbour's goods. You shαll not be envious of his house nor his wife, nor αnything thαt belongs to your neighbour: then everyone sins-- common' who hαsn't seen donαld trump αnd not wαnt αll of thαt!!

αnd then you hαve your seven deαdly sins: pride, envy, gluttony, lust, αnger, greed, sloth

Tessy777

Jun 11, 2007, 10:47 AM

Hey Capuchin,

I didn't jump to any conclusions. I read that you are a non believer. I get it. It it your right to believe or not believe that is what free will is all about. I still disagree with you... they AREN'T more valid than the rest of the Bible. Do we understand each other.. I didn't mean to be confusing.

Capuchin

Jun 11, 2007, 12:35 PM

Poppa0777 disagrees: Tessy777 is right! If we could do it, ourselves then why was Jesus crucified?

What was I trying to do? Why are you all making up things?

ActionJackson

Jun 11, 2007, 06:38 PM

ok...let me clarify myself then. The commandments are not going to save anyone. Only Jesus can. As a Christian, I WANT to follow the commandments....but doing so won't save me. Yes it is a good moral code, yes he should follow them if he wants a better life HERE but it won't help for eternity. That is what I meant. (sorry, i plead blonde here...)

That was the best wording yet. I read your earlier posts and understood what you meant but the wording could have been seen as confusing. Anyway, what you basically said is that the Law of God is the school master that leads us to Christ. Since we can't keep it perfectly, we fall short which is sin. By sinning, we turn to Jesus Christ to forgive us and cleanse us of our sin. He and He alone can overcome our sin for His perfect self-sacrifice made that possible.

ActionJackson

Jun 11, 2007, 06:42 PM

I said I am a non believer, I don't believe in salvation. I believe that the 10 commandments are a good moral compass to make a better world. Nothing more. I'm not trying to score points to get into heaven, if that's what you think, I don't even believe in heaven.

I said explicitly that I believe that the 10 commandments are more valid than the rest of the bible, not that they are more valid now than they were before.

I am not concerned with an afterlife or judgement, I am concerned with the here and now, and I believe that the 10 commandments are not a bad guide to follow to make a better here and now. I don't care about being saved.

Please read, you jumped to a lot of conclusions which were not in any way implied.

I'm sorry that you aren't looking for entry into the Kingdom of God but I respect the fact that you accept that there should be some sort of a moral code for a society to live by and that you are willing to live by a moral code yourself. If everyone, Christian or not, lived by the same moral code then there would certainly be a lot less confusion. We would at least be on the "same page" concerning how we should treat each other.

Hope12

Jun 14, 2007, 11:18 AM

Hello ActionJackson,

I disagree with your statements because:

Even though we are not under the Mosaic law are the laws and the principles of those laws to be followed. Yes. While it is true that Christians are no longer under the Mosaic law code, of which the Ten Commandments are part, the principles embodied in those commandments are ever valid and they have been recorded for our instruction. True to try to get people to conform to the Mosaic law and to use it as a standard and as a threat to Christians, this is wrong, for Christians are not under the Law, which was abolished by means of Christ’s sacrifice.
Of what use, then, is the Law? How is it ‘handled lawfully’? For one thing, a study of it helps because it “has a shadow of the good things to come.” Heb. 10:1 Furthermore, by studying God’s laws and his dealings with Israel under the Law, we can get God’s viewpoint on matters, how he feels about certain things. We get guidelines. But we cannot, as Christians, go back to the Law except to apply its principles.
Moreover, Christians are not judges with authority to inflict corporal punishment on people for violating either the law of love or the Mosaic law. Christ is the Judge and the one who will carry out justice. But he is also merciful. So it is the duty of Christians to help an erring one, if possible. James says: “Know that he who turns a sinner back from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.” Jas. 5:20.
If the erring one seriously violates the righteous principles of God and is persistent and unrepentant, the congregation expels him, not to do him personal harm, but because such action is necessary and commanded for the cleanness of the congregation before God and is in harmony with love for God’s name and for the congregation. 1 Cor. 5:5, 13
God, through Christ, is the One who punishes the sinner according to what is deserved.
The law is ‘handled lawfully’ when its true purpose and function are understood, acknowledged and adhered to in the light of God’s purposes through Christ.

Paul wrote: “Go on carrying the burdens of one another, and thus fulfill the law of the Christ.” Ga 6:2 While the Law covenant was terminated at Pentecost, 33 C.E. Christians come “under law toward Christ.” 1Co 9:21 This law is called “the perfect law that belongs to freedom,” “the law of a free people,” “the law of faith.” Jas 1:25; 2:12; Ro 3:27

Such a new law had been foretold by God through the prophet Jeremiah when he spoke of a new covenant and the writing of his law on the hearts of his people. Jer 31:31-34; Heb 8:6-13.
Like Moses, the mediator of the Law covenant, Jesus Christ is Mediator of the new covenant. Moses wrote the Law in code form, but Jesus did not personally put a law down in writing. He talked and put his law into the minds and hearts of his disciples. Neither did his disciples set down laws in the form of a code for Christians, classifying the laws into categories and subheadings. Nonetheless, the Christian Greek Scriptures are full of laws, commands, and decrees that the Christian is bound to observe.—Re 14:12; 1Jo 5:2, 3; 4:21; 3:22-24; 2Jo 4-6; Joh 13:34, 35; 14:15; 15:14.

The “law of the Christ” covers the whole course and scope of the Christian’s life and work. By the help of God’s spirit the Christian can follow the commands in order to be judged favorably by that law, for it is “the law of that spirit which gives life in union with Christ Jesus.”—Ro 8:2, 4.

In conclusion, we adhere and try to obey the Mosaic law and it’s principles, however we are now under a better law covenant, made and established by the Sacrificial blood of Christ. The Mosaic law was under the blood of animals and each year that blood had to be poured out on the alter of the “most Holy” in the temple for the peoples sins and in order to have a relationship with the Creator.
The high priest would enter the most Holy and pour out the blood of an animal. Every year this would have to be done. Do you or any other religion today do this? No, of course not. Not even the Jews do this today. Why?

Because Jesus Christ died once for all mankind. This sacrifice was one for all time. Never again would it have to be done again. Adam was perfect when he sinned and so after he sinned God instituted the yearly sacrifice of animals so as to atone for sins and to bring man into a relationship with their Creator. Adam had lost that perfect standing with God.

Jesus was sent by God to sacrifice his life, once for all time. One perfect life for the perfect life lost. Life for life. God even obeys his own laws. So we are no longer on under the Mosaic law because of Jesus’ sacrifice for all time. This ended the animal sacrifices at the Most Holy in the temple and was replaced with a far greater sacrifice, that of Jesus Christ. That is why it is called the Ransom sacrifice. Jesus Christ paid the ransom price for Adams disobedience for all time and brought us back into a standing with God. For that reason the New Covenant or Law of Christ is fare superior then the Mosaic law yet both are of value. Each had a purpose and now the Law of Christ has a purpose in God’s plans. That is why it is essential to follow the Law of Christ. This is God’s means of our salvation.

Take care,
Hope12

ActionJackson

Jun 14, 2007, 05:17 PM

[QUOTE=Hope12]Hello ActionJackson,
Yes. While it is true that Christians are no longer under the Mosaic law code, of which the Ten Commandments are part, the principles embodied in those commandments are ever valid and they have been recorded for our instruction.

The "principle" of "thou shalt not steal" is don't steal. The "principle" of "thou shalt honor thy mother and thy father is" you should strive to honor your mom and dad. The "principle" of "thou shall not put other gods before Me" is that it's wrong to worship any god other than Jesus Christ. Instead of complicating the simplicity of God's Word with lots of philisophical red tape, just follow the Laws of God as stated in the 10 Commandments. They are simple and to the point. Did I always honor my mom and dad when they were alive? No, I did not. When I didn't, my conscience would get the better of me and I would turn to Christ and ask His forgiveness as well as their's. Such a simple process.

True to try to get people to conform to the Mosaic law and to use it as a standard and as a threat to Christians, this is wrong, for Christians are not under the Law, which was abolished by means of Christ's sacrifice.

Christ abolished the Levitical laws of animal sacrifice because He was the ULTIMATE sacrifice. Christ, the perfect Lamb of God, was the final offering. His death, on the other hand, did not allow Christians to covet their neighbors property or to commit adultery. Some of our modern day pastors clearly disagree with me as it seems that about anything goes behind church doors. Perhaps if they took the Law more seriously, there would be less promiscuity within the leadership of the Christian church in America.

Of what use, then, is the Law?

It is a standard to live by and a goal to strive for.

How is it 'handled lawfully'?

God will handle it Lawfully and in His own time and way.

But we cannot, as Christians, go back to the Law except to apply its principles.

Okay...I gotta ask...what's the "principle" of "thou shalt not steal?"

Moreover, Christians are not judges with authority to inflict corporal punishment on people for violating either the law of love or the Mosaic law. Christ is the Judge and the one who will carry out justice. But he is also merciful.

Correct, Jesus Christ is the one and only Judge of a man's soul. He can be quite merciful but lets take a look at the following passage: "The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; the enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear." Matthew 13:38-43 Apparently, there are those who aren't pleasing to God and He's not all that merciful in the end.

So it is the duty of Christians to help an erring one, if possible. James says: “Know that he who turns a sinner back from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.” Jas. 5:20.

Great verse, that's one reason why I teach the importance of using God's Law to our advantage. I'm trying to help people.

If the erring one seriously violates the righteous principles of God and is persistent and unrepentant, the congregation expels him, not to do him personal harm, but because such action is necessary and commanded for the cleanness of the congregation before God and is in harmony with love for God's name and for the congregation. 1 Cor. 5:5, 13

You're not suggesting that we should follow rules are you? You're not suggesting that there are consequences for breaking the rules are you?

God, through Christ, is the One who punishes the sinner according to what is deserved.
The law is 'handled lawfully' when its true purpose and function are understood, acknowledged and adhered to in the light of God's purposes through Christ.

Oh, so there is "law" as long as it is handled "lawfully." Cool.

Matthew 5:19 "Whosoever shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Thanks for you time and God bless.

Hope12

Jun 14, 2007, 06:25 PM

Hello ActionJackson,

I don't know what bible you use but I will say this, if you read the scriptures below that I give you will see that the principles of the ten commandments are what we are to obey. But we are not under the Ten commandments in the same way that those who where under the Mosaic Law. Do not the scriptures tell us that God nailed the old law with Jesus thereby ending it. Why? Becausse the Law of Christ is far more detailed and cover what is need for Christians today. The laws did not change but got better in that we do not stone people to death for fornication or adultery, but we now try to readjust that one so as to help them to repentense not stone them.

Since the Ten Commandments, from beginning to end, both in what they proscribe as well as in their arrangement, clearly demonstrate that Jehovah God alone could be their Author, does this mean that Christians are still bound by them? No, that does not necessarily follow. God can both make and abrogate his laws. The Decalogue, together with about 600 other laws of the Mosaic Law Code, as well as their sanctions such as stoning, was nailed to Jesus’ torture stake by Jehovah God, thereby freeing Christians from the Decalogue. Christians “are not under law but under undeserved kindness.” And in the place of the Decalogue Christians have God’s spirit and love as forces for righteousness.

However, the basic principles of the Ten Commandments have not been canceled; they will ever apply.

Rom. 6:14; 13:8-10; Eph. 2:14-16; Col. 2:16, 17.
That the Israelites might appreciate that this law came indeed from him, Jehovah accompanied its giving with awesome sights and sounds. And when Moses came down to the people after receiving the law at the hands of angels his face shone so brightly that the Israelites could not look upon him. Since that law was given through Moses, it is properly termed the law of Moses.—Ex. 19:16, 18; 34:29, 30.

However awesome and glorious as that occasion was, its law and glory proved to be but temporary. It was superseded by a greater and a permanent glory, as the apostle Paul shows: “If that which was to be done away with was brought in with glory, much more would that which remains be with glory.”—2 Cor. 3:11, NW.

Does God give a law to a people and then do away with it, abrogate it? Yes, as the Supreme Lawgiver he can make whatever laws he wishes for his creatures and cancel them when they have served his purpose, replacing them with other laws or rules of conduct. For example, polygamy was permitted under the Mosaic law and Levirate marriage was compulsory, but neither of these applies to Christians. That is why Paul also says: “The Law has become our tutor leading to Christ, that we might be declared righteous due to faith. But now that this faith has arrived, we are no longer under a tutor.”—Gal. 3:24, 25, NW.

And what temporary purposes did the Mosaic law serve? That law kept the nation of Israel apart from pagan nations so that the Son of God could come through it and to its people as their Messiah. That law also showed them their sinfulness and their need of a better sacrifice to take away sins. It foreshadowed that sacrifice as well as many other “good things.” Having served these purposes it was no longer needed. So from then on “let no man judge you in eating and drinking or in respect of a feast day or of an observance of the new moon or of a sabbath, for those things are a shadow of the things to come, but the reality belongs to the Christ.”—Heb. 10:1; Col. 2:16, 17, NW.

In fact, time and time again Paul stresses the truth that the Mosaic law does not apply to Christians. Thus he likens it to a “legal curtain” or wall separating the Israelites from other peoples, which the sacrifice of Christ took out of the way; it “destroyed the wall in between that fenced them off. By means of his flesh he abolished the hatred, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees.”—Eph. 2:14, 15, NW.

Just my understanding.
Take care,
Hope12

ActionJackson

Jun 14, 2007, 06:52 PM

[QUOTE=Hope12]Hello ActionJackson, I don't know what bible you use

I read the Holy Bible in its entirety.

I will say this, if you read the scriptures below that I give you will see that the principles of the ten commandments are what we are to obey. But we are not under the Ten commandments in the same way that those who where under the Mosaic Law.

The Webster's Collegiate Dictionary defines "PRINCIPLE" thusly: "1. an accepted or professed rule of action or conduct. 2. a fundamental law, axiom, or doctrine. The 10 Commandments ARE God's principles or "rules of actions or conduct" or "fundamental laws."

Do not the scriptures tell us that God nailed the old law with Jesus thereby ending it.

The laws of animal sacrifice came to a screeching halt as a result of Christ's sacrifice. He fulfilled the sacrificial laws because He was the ultimate sacrifice and the final offering.

Why? Becausse the Law of Christ is far more detailed and cover what is need for Christians today. The laws did not change but got better in that we do not stone people to death for fornication or adultery, but we now try to readjust that one so as to help them to repentense not stone them.

Your statement suggests that 1) Christ complicated the rules rather than simplified them, 2) if the laws "got better" then they, indeed, changed. In all actuality, Christ didn't really do away with the death penalty for the sins you mentioned; however, what He did do was force us to look at our own sin rather than the sins of others. When the Pharisees picked up stones with the intention of putting Mary Magdalene to death, Christ said, "he who is without sin, cast the first stone." Christ would have allowed the stone to be thrown and even gave His okay as long as the person casting it was without sin. Fortunately for Mary, you, and me, there is nobody who is without sin for we have all sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God. Sin, as defined by the New Testament, is the transgression of the Law. If the Law has been done away with, then we CAN'T sin. It's impossible to sin if there is no Law to transgress.

Tessy777

Jun 15, 2007, 05:31 AM

AJ,
The law hasn't been done away with, the PRINCIPLES are still there for US but we are NOT under them. Jesus fulfilled the Law because man couldn't. Man couldn't do it, and that is exactly what God wanted to show us. We don't throw the Law out but neither are we under it. If we were under the Law we would have to follow it. Do you remember the Sabbath? You don't get to pick what you will follow, either you are under the Law or you are NOT. No more sacrifrices because Jesus is our perfect sacrifice, if we were under the Law, we'd be putting animals on the alter to slaughter. In fact, the Temple will be rebuilt and the Jews will begin to sacrifice again druing the tribulaltion period.

The Law was not written to me, it was written to the Jews. But all of the Word is for me. There really is a difference. And just so you think that Grace is so much easier than the Law, I believe Grace sets an even HIGHER standard. Under the Law to commit Adultry is a sin, but Jesus (HIS standard, OUR standard) says that even looking at a woman and lusting is the same thing.

I'm not sure who you are referring to when you state that many Christians posting are confused and don't Love all of God's Word. I certainly take offense to it. I will state one more time. You have to rightly divide it. Who is it written to? it is for us all but the Law was written to the Jews. We learn from the Law, the Law shows us how pathetic we really are and how much we are in need of a wonderful Savior. If you are under the Law, then I don't know you, but I can assure you that you are failing miserably. I love all of Gods Word and I strive to understand it. You make the Word confusing when you don't rightly divide it.

Hope12

Jun 15, 2007, 09:42 AM

Hello ActionJackson,
Sorry for the length but It is the only way to try and help you see that the Law of Christ ended when Jesus died.

Take note of the laws that a servant of God a Jew was to obey. They had of course the Ten commandments but they also had about 600 other laws that were to be obeyed by the Jews. When Jesus died he simplified those laws into the Laws of Christ. Meaning that these old requirement were made for the Jews and benefited them, for their time. Christians today are bound by the laws of Christ because he fulfilled the Old covenant and made a new Covenant for the people who would follow him. We still obey the Principles of the Ten Commandments, but not the Laws of the old covenant because if we did then guess what, those who choose to not follow the Law of Christ, are doing it wrong. They are leaving out part of that law unless they follow all the obligations below, which were part of the old law.

These are just some of the Mosaic law which include the ten commandments.

DUTIES OF PRIESTHOOD
(In fulfilling their duties, the priests were assisted by the Levites; Nu 3:5-10)
Teach the Law of God (De 33:8, 10; Mal 2:7)
Serve as judges, applying divine law (De 17:8, 9; 19:16, 17)
Offer sacrifices on behalf of the people (Le chaps 1-7)
Use Urim and Thummim to inquire of God (Ex 28:30; Nu 27:18-21)
MARRIAGE, FAMILY RELATIONSHIPS, SEXUAL MORALITY
(The Law safeguarded Israel by preserving the sacred status of marriage and family life)
Marriage, first performed by Jehovah (Ge 2:18, 21-24)
Husband was owner of his wife but was answerable to God for how he dealt with her (De 22:22; Mal 2:13-16)
Polygamy was permitted but was regulated so as to safeguard wife and her offspring (De 21:15-17; Ex 21:10)
Only husband was allowed to divorce (for something indecent on wife’s part); he was required to give wife written certificate of divorce (De 24:1-4)
No divorce allowed if husband had married wife after seducing her (De 22:28, 29)
If a man and a woman deliberately cohabited during menstruation, they were cut off in death (Le 18:19; 20:18)
Husband who unwittingly had intercourse with wife during such uncleanness (perhaps at unexpected beginning of menstruation) was unclean seven days (Le 15:19-24)
Parent-child relationships
Parents (especially fathers) were commanded to teach children God’s Law (De 6:6-9, 20-25; 11:18-21; Isa 38:19)
Children to honor parents (Ex 20:12; 21:15, 17; Le 19:3; De 5:16; 21:18-21; 27:16)
Wearing dress of opposite sex (to deceive for immoral purposes) was prohibited (De 22:5)
Sodomy carried death penalty for both persons involved (Le 18:22; 20:13)

DIETARY AND SANITARY LAWS
(These served to keep the Israelites separate from pagan nations, to promote cleanliness and health, and to remind them of their holiness to God; Le 19:2)
Use of blood
Eating of blood was strictly forbidden. (Ge 9:4; Le 7:26; 17:12; De 12:23-25) Penalty for violation: death (Le 7:27; 17:10)
Life (soul) is in the blood (Le 17:11, 14)
Blood of slaughtered animal had to be poured out on ground like water and covered with dust (Le 17:13; De 12:16)
No animal dying of itself or found dead could be eaten (because it was unclean and had not been properly bled) (De 14:21)
Only legal uses: put upon altar for atonement; used for prescribed cleansing purposes (Le 17:11, 12; De 12:27; Nu 19:1-9)
Use of fat
No fat could be eaten; fat belonged to Jehovah (Le 3:16, 17; 7:23, 24)
Eating fat of offering brought death penalty (Le 7:25)
Slaughtered animals
In wilderness, any domestic animals that were to be slaughtered were to be brought to tabernacle. They would be eaten as communion sacrifices (Le 17:3-6)
Penalty for violation: death (Le 17:4, 8, 9)
Every creature that splits hoof, forming a cleft therein, and chews could (Le 11:2, 3; De 14:6)
Everything in the waters that has fins and scales (Le 11:9-12; De 14:9, 10)
Insects and winged swarming creatures that go upon all fours and have leaper legs: migratory locust, edible locust, cricket, and grasshopper (all according to their kinds) (Le 11:21, 22)
Animals presented as vow or voluntary offerings, communion sacrifice could be eaten on day offered and on second but not on third day; penalty for violation, death. Thanksgiving sacrifice to be eaten on that day; none to be saved over until morning (second day). Passover must not be left over; what was not eaten was to be burned (Le 7:16-18; 19:5-8; 22:29, 30; Ex 12:10)
ActionJackson, do you obey all these things and do you perform all these steps in your obedience to the Mosaic Law which enclude the Ten Commandment? If not, then you are not under the Ten Commandments because they are part of all the Mosaic Law.

Are you saying, “If we live by the Ten Commandments, that is enough”? Is it? Perhaps it is sufficient to please some who profess to be Christian, but does it please God? When he has lovingly provided the Bible, now in thousands of
written languages, does it please him when some accept a half of one page and brush the rest aside as unnecessary? Would a cook be pleased if you sat down to a carefully prepared banquet of the finest foods, picked out a single pea to eat and pushed the remainder into the garbage can? Of course not!

That the idea that the Ten Commandments are enough for a Christian does not spring from a sincere desire to serve God, but rather laziness or indifference toward what the Bible says, is shown in that even these commandments are not kept. Men are not so much interested in keeping the Ten Commandments as they are in not being bothered.

Take note AJ:
“By works of law no flesh will be declared righteous before him,” said the apostle Paul. So we must accept that to which the Law pointed and embrace God’s standard of what is right and not an abridged edition of our own. Romans 3:20;

Romans 6:14 (New King James Version)
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Romans 13:8-10 (New King James Version)
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,”[a] “You shall not covet,”[b] and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”[c] 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

The obligation to keep the Mosaic Law ended when the Messiah died, otherwise, what is the sense of having these scriptures in the Bible?

:) Take care,
Hope12

Starman

Jun 15, 2007, 10:07 AM

Being under law meant that the punishments stipulated by the law for its violation had to be implemented. The Ten Commandments are a brief outline. The specifics of violations and punishments as well as required sacrifices for sin are given in the rest of Exodus, then Deuteronomy, then Leviticus. It was the obligation to obey these onerous system requirements that was symbolically nailed to the cross by being made unnecessary for us to attain a good standing before God via Jesus Ransom Sacrifice.

Colossians 2:13-15 (King James Version)

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

That however doesn't mean that we as Christians can consider murder, adultery, malicious laying, and all the other moral requirements as irrelevant to our standing before God. It only means that if we happen to violate any of such moral requirements, we need not offer animal sacrifices or need not stone anyone to death or do any of the other things required by the law.

Btw
Sorry about the repetition of any info given by Hope.
I hadn't noticed it until I posted. In any case I'll leave in here perhaps as a brief verson of what Hope said.

ActionJackson

Jun 15, 2007, 06:57 PM

AJ,
The law hasn't been done away with, the PRINCIPLES are still there for US but we are NOT under them.
The "principle" of the law is the essence of the law and the essence of the law is the law. If we are not "under" the law then we must be over the law. If we are over the law, then the law has no power or effect.

Jesus fulfilled the Law because man couldn't.

Christ's death did away with the sacrificial laws but not the moral laws. Matthew 5:17, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."

Man couldn't do it, and that is exactly what God wanted to show us. We don't throw the Law out but neither are we under it.

That's like saying that we don't do away with the traffic laws but we don't have to obey them. The purpose of a red light is to cause us to stop and it's important to keep the spirit of that law if someone is coming from the other way but what you're saying, I think, is that if nobody is coming it's okay to run the red. Is that kinda what you are saying?

If we were under the Law we would have to follow it.

And we certainly don't want that when there are so many fun things to do. Afterall, nobody takes rules seriously these days, do they?

Do you remember the Sabbath? You don't get to pick and choose what you will follow, either you are under the Law or you are NOT.

I absolutely do remember the Sabbath. It's a time to rest. We need that more than we know. It's not difficult to keep the Sabbath. "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous." I John 5:3

No more sacrifrices because Jesus is our perfect sacrifice, if we were under the Law, we'd be putting animals on the alter to slaughter.

Please don't confuse the sacrificial laws with the 10 Commandments. That's like confusing civil law with criminal law.

In fact, the Temple will be rebuilt and the Jews will begin to sacrifice again druing the tribulaltion period.

I missed that verse. My fault. Have never heard this tenet of the Christian faith.

The Law was not written to me, it was written to the Jews.

If a rule is a good rule then it is good for all. If there was a law that said, "Jews shall not walk off of that cliff, would it be smart for you or me to walk off? Don't answer that, I may not like what I hear;)

but all of the Word is for me.

The Law is part of the Word. God's Word.

There really is a difference. And just so you think that Grace is so much easier than the Law, I believe Grace sets an even HIGHER standard. Under the Law to commit Adultry is a sin, but Jesus (HIS standard, OUR standard) says that even looking at a woman and lusting is the same thing.

So Christ revealed the true intent of the Law which is a change of heart. Now you're getting close. However, "looking at a woman" is not necessarily "lusting" after her. I looked at my mom and sisters all the time but I never lusted after them. On the other hand, you are correct that if I look at a woman with lustful desires, I have committed fornication which is a sin. Sin is the transgression of the law. Therefore, I am under the law.

I'm not sure who you are referring to when you state that many Christians posting are confused and don't Love all of God's Word. I certainly take offense to it.

If it doesn't apply to you then you shouldn't take offense.

I will state one more time. You have to rightly divide it. Who is it written to?, it is for us all but the Law was written to the Jews. We learn from the Law, the Law shows us how pathetic we really are and how much we are in need of a wonderful Savior. If you are under the Law, then I don't know you, but I can assure you that you are failing miserably. I love all of Gods Word and I strive to understand it. You make the Word confusing when you don't rightly divide it.

I would try to respond but your sentences alternately contradict one another. Before I could explain what "rightly dividing the Word" means, I would spend considerable time attempting to "rightly divide" yours. Anyway, I think your heart is facing the right way for the most part and I hold no ill feelings toward you.

Tessy777

Jun 15, 2007, 08:17 PM

AJ,

Seriously dude, you are wrong. How many ways can I say it? Tell you what, look me up in heaven I would LOVE to tell you... I TOLD YOU SO. In the mean time, not ONLY is my "heart facing the right way"... so is my faith and DOCTRINE. I hold no ill feelings toward you either...

ActionJackson

Jun 15, 2007, 09:05 PM

AJ,

Seriously dude, you are wrong. how many ways can I say it? Tell you what, look me up in heaven I would LOVE to tell you...I TOLD YOU SO. In the mean time, not ONLY is my "heart facing the right way"...so is my faith and DOCTRINE. I hold no ill feelings toward you either....

Seriously, chick, the Bible isn't wrong and I'm simply quoting it. I have quoted a bunch of verses that specifically say that to love God, we follow His commandments and yet you call me wrong. If I'm wrong then the verses I quoted are wrong. If they are wrong, then the Bible is wrong.

Fortunately for me, you won't be the judge... Christ will. Faith... okay; doctrine... no way. I'm sorry.

Take care.

Wondergirl

Jun 15, 2007, 09:11 PM

Both Old and New Testaments are an SOS.

OT = SOS (Shows Our Sin)

NT = SOS (Shows Our Savior)

ActionJackson

Jun 15, 2007, 09:24 PM

Both Old and New Testaments are an SOS.

OT = SOS (Shows Our Sin)

NT = SOS (Shows Our Savior)

I like that. I'll have to remember that. We do need both but without Christ, we would surely die in sin.

Retrotia

Jun 19, 2007, 09:40 AM

Tessy777

Jun 19, 2007, 11:20 AM

The 10 Commandments still stand form the Old Testament. The 4th Commandment doesn't require the weekly rest & worship day to be Saturday though.
That moral law was more for the Jews.
AJ- I don't care if you say different. You are probably a M-F working person anyway. Well, for 22 yrs. I was an RN & we have to work weekends. So, just as Jesus was Lord of the Sabbath-working & healing overrides any law about the strict sabbath observance.
See the article below:
What does Lord of the Sabbath mean? (http://www.scripturessay.com/article.php?cat=&id=388)
But if you insist- then just call yourself a seventh-day adventist- & leave at that.

He must be a seventh-day adventist.. it is the only explanation. Talk about screwed up! Thank heavens I was raised in the truth. I may not be right about everything but I feel certain my doctrine is pretty sound... even if TV evangelists DO agree with me... most of the time. Lol

NeedKarma

Jun 19, 2007, 11:32 AM

Now, now, no fighting amongst you folks who are full of love.

ordinaryguy

Jun 19, 2007, 04:35 PM

He must be a seventh-day adventist.. it is the only explanation. Talk about screwed up! Thank heavens I was raised in the truth.

Luke 18:9-14 New King James Version

Also, he spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men--extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I posess.' And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God be merciful to me a sinner!'. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be abased, and he who humbles himself shall be exalted."

Tessy777

Jun 19, 2007, 06:01 PM

Ordinary guy,

I like AJ.. I believe him to be a true believer in Christ! I think his doctrine is wacky. That is my belief. Do I think I am better than him? No way. I like the guy... I just think he is wrong. I am NO pharisee. (and I was trying to get AJ a little riled up... I like him riled up but don't tell him that.)

Retrotia

Jun 19, 2007, 06:41 PM

Tessy,
I still consider AJ a brother though. Ordinary Guy is a self-confessed apostate. So, I would take it with a grain of salt. They stand like the left behind people pointing fingers, trying to the last Trump to see strife.

This was between Christians but they had no opinion.:(

Tessy777

Jun 19, 2007, 06:55 PM

Retrotia,

Thanks for the info. Geesh. People need to get a life.

ordinaryguy

Jun 20, 2007, 03:46 PM

But if you insist- then just call yourself a seventh-day adventist- & leave at that.

He must be a seventh-day adventist..it is the only explanation. Talk about screwed up! Thank heavens i was raised in the truth.

I still consider AJ a brother though.

I like AJ..i believe him to be a true believer in Christ! I think his doctrine is wacky. That is my belief. do I think I am better than him? no way. I like the guy...i just think he is wrong. I am NO pharisee. (and I was trying to get AJ a little riled up...i like him riled up but don't tell him that.)
Whether you despise ActionJackson, you certainly do seem to despise seventh-day adventists, whoever they are.

ordinaryguy

Jun 20, 2007, 03:50 PM

Tessy777 agrees: Your point?

I am NO pharisee.
So you did get my point, after all.

ActionJackson

Jun 20, 2007, 04:40 PM

The 10 Commandments still stand form the Old Testament. The 4th Commandment doesn't require the weekly rest & worship day to be Saturday though.
That moral law was more for the Jews.
AJ- I don't care if you say different. You are probably a M-F working person anyway. Well, for 22 yrs. I was an RN & we have to work weekends. So, just as Jesus was Lord of the Sabbath-working & healing overrides any law about the strict sabbath observance.
See the article below:
What does Lord of the Sabbath mean? (http://www.scripturessay.com/article.php?cat=&id=388)
But if you insist- then just call yourself a seventh-day adventist- & leave at that.

Yeah, you got me... I'm just one of those Monday - Friday working dodos (not counting my 2nd Job). Even with two jobs, I sill rest as God would have all of us do. I agree that if someone is in need, it's better to help than to sit because it's the Sabbath. Even Christ ate the show bread and picked an ear of corn for food. And He said that if a cow fell into a ditch that anyone would pull it out of the ditch. However, we are still to rest our bodies and our minds and find a day when we can honor our Creator, Jesus Christ. If you choose not to honor Him that is your choice.

laurenjd

Jun 26, 2007, 08:03 PM

I hear some Christians say that God's Law or the 10 Commandments were nailed to the cross. Some say that we need to focus on Christ and stop focusing on the rules or the laws or the Old Testament. I believe that the laws of sacrificial offerings and animal sacrifices were nailed to the cross at the time of Christ's death but that we are still bound by the moral Laws or the 10 Commandments. I mean, is Thou shalt not steal one of the Laws that was nailed to the cross? What do you think?
In Matthew chapter 22, Jesus' disciples ask him what the greatest commandment is. He answers that the first is to love the Lord your God with all your heard, soul and mind. And the second is to love your neighbor as yorself. All the Law and Prophets hang on these two commandments. So really, it doesn't matter if we are officially supposed to be going by the 10 commandments. If you follow those two commandments, you'd never sin anyway!

Tessy777

Jun 26, 2007, 09:26 PM

In Matthew chapter 22, Jesus' disciples ask him what the greatest commandment is. He answers that the first is to love the Lord your God with all your heard, soul and mind. And the second is to love your neighbor as yorself. All the Law and Prophets hang on these two commandments. So really, it doesn't matter if we are officially suppossed to be going by the 10 commandments. If you follow those two commandments, you'd never sin anyway!
I disagree. I think it does matter and the Apostle Paul surely thought it mattered. I say this in a lot of my posts.. when you read the Word you have to first see who the person is talking to. Jesus for instants, is talking to the Jewish people, that is who he came for and they rejected him. The Bible would contradict itself if we don't learn to see who the books were written to. They are for us all but they are written directly to people. Paul writes many books to the Church.. those are directly written to us. Mathew, Mark, Luke and John are not "Christian" books. They are very Jewish in fact the Gospel is not in them. It is called rightly dividing the word.. not pulling things out of context.

Hope12

Jun 27, 2007, 09:01 AM

Hello Everyone,

If we were still -under the Law of Moses, every time someone commits fornication or adultery, we would see an awful lot of stoning being done all over this world.

That though does not mean that we do not still live our life as a Christian under the "Principles" of those laws. Christ came and gave the law a lift to higher standards. How? By adding the two greatest of all "Commandments or laws" To love our God with all our heart and our neighbor as ourself.

In his famous Sermon on the Mount, Jesus stated: “Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill.” Matt. 5:17

Or, as Today’s English Version renders the last sentence: “I have not come to do away with them, but to make their teachings come true.” Since Jesus came to make the teachings of the prophets come true, his coming was a guarantee that their prophecies concerning the law would be fulfilled.

Here are just a few: Psalms 37:11, 29; 72:1-8,16-19; 115:16; Isaiah 9:6, 7; 11:1-10; 45:18; Daniel 2:34, 35, 44, 45; 7:13, 14.

Jesus gave us the law of love. If one loves their God with all their heart, mind and soul, and their neighbor as themselves, that love covers the principles of the law of Moses, and the Law of Christ. How?

If one truly love God and their neighbor that covers all things because love does not steal, lie, kill, or any other hateful thing.

Notice how love covers everything that both the Principles of the Ten Commandments and the Law of Christ.

1 Corinthians 13:1-8
13 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but do not have love, I have become a sounding [piece of] brass or a clashing cymbal. 2 And if I have the gift of prophesying and am acquainted with all the sacred secrets and all knowledge, and if I have all the faith so as to transplant mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my belongings to feed others, and if I hand over my body, that I may boast, but do not have love, I am not profited at all.

4 Love is long-suffering and kind. Love is not jealous, it does not brag, does not get puffed up, 5 does not behave indecently, does not look for its own interests, does not become provoked. It does not keep account of the injury. 6 It does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. 7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails.

So as Christian if we have love, we would obey both divine principles and the laws of Christ. We though are not under the ten commandments. These were for the Jews before Christ. Christ fulfilled the ten commandment and now we are under the Covenant or laws of Christ based on LOVE and enclude the devine principles of the ten commandments but does not require obedence to the ten commandment as the ancient Jew were commanded to obey. The law of Christ is superior because evey if one obeys all the ten commandments and all the other 600 laws the Jews had, and does not have love, it is of no value.

Rember 1 "Corinthian 13:1
1- If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but do not have love, I have become a sounding [piece of] brass or a clashing cymbal"

Take care,
Hope12

DMRH

May 22, 2009, 07:27 AM

Hello Everyone,

In his famous Sermon on the Mount, Jesus stated: “Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill.” Matt. 5:17

Or, as Today’s English Version renders the last sentence: “I have not come to do away with them, but to make their teachings come true.” Since Jesus came to make the teachings of the prophets come true, his coming was a guarantee that their prophecies concerning the law would be fulfilled.

Take care,
Hope12

Have read this entire post with zeal & can argue easily that "HOPE12" is the one on the right track. However, by the sheer participation from all, it proves that we all seek the truth & as forward thinking Christians, are willing to debate topics without resorting to childish antics. Shall we fulfill the Jewish tradition where "If two jews in a room talk religion, they will walk away with three opinions". No, let us be equal in our understanding of what we have been taught & be open minded to those that show by their fruits that they have much to offer.

It took quite some time but finally MAT 5:17 was brought out & none of us can deny the words of our Messiah can we.

There are two basic witnesses to the Bible. The old & the new, the Father & the Son. We know that the son always spoke for his father so we know that the old is relevant alongside the new. What was fulfilled is no more but what was left behind still stands.

We read about the abolition of the law in Acts, Romans, Galatians etc but we all know that the true-law was totally polluted by the Jews by that time hence the desire for Christians of the day to distance themselves. The light of the Holy Spirit easily exposed the failings of this polluted law. The new covenant was the way out of this life-of-misery fear campaign that the Pharisees had imposed.

True, that by faith in Christ & through the Holy Spirit we shall be redeemed. However that same Spirit holds us naturally within the law by love rather than fear, but we are never above it & if walking with Christ we shall not be below it either.

It is written that all works of scripture is "inspired" so what hasn't been fulfilled on the cross is still relevant but just not approached in the same manner as before Christ.

In saying this, I'll leave the final words to our Messiah again in his very last documented vissionary appearance.

REV 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus

God Bless

homesell

May 23, 2009, 06:11 AM

The whole of the Law is summed up in LOVE GOD, LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR. If you have sinned, you have not loved. If you have loved, you have not sinned. "For whatever is done that is NOT of the (Holy) Spirit, IS SIN.
Sinning basically is not loving (either God, neighbor or both) and breaks the ten commandments in some way.
Since christians are not under law but under Grace, we cannot break the law but we CAN (and do) fail to love always, which would break the Law IF we were under it. Now the Law for us is a guide to show us how to live so that we love and points us to Christ, who loved at all times and never violated the Law which he was under.

lambsev

Jan 2, 2010, 02:32 PM

There is a tremendous move by some today to return to the works of the law law for some sense of accomplishment that pleases God, or that comforts ones need for self esteem. But the Bible cleary shows that in our flesh dwelles no good thing. With out the salvation of Messiah Yeshua (Christ Jesus) we are without hope in this world or in the next. But with Yeshua we receive grace, SAVING grace and the Holy Spirit who together give us power over sin and death. TY Lord!! If we are to be humble we will study the word and see that all our obedience is insufficient to save us, we simple stand in need of God's endless mercy and grace, that grace being so wonderfully summed up in the blood Yeshua shed for us on Golgotha nearly 2000 years ago. Now that we know the truth and are set free, John 8:31 and 32 we are free to love God and our neighbor with all our being(s). This Spirit led life will keep us in a continual and progressive state of sanctification leading us in an ever increasing measure of holiness and perfection. When we sin, our enlivened consciences will twll us we have sinned, and we will then rejoice that yeshua forgives us for the sin. It will be the advrsary who seeks to drag us back into a system of legalism in which we will think our deeds of the law gain us some favor with God which will save us. The scripture is clear: Hebrews 11:6 He that cometh to God must BELIEVE thet He is and is a rewarder of them that dilligently seek Him. Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.John 6:29 Read all of John 6, and all of Romans, Galatians and Hebrews until the dawn breaks: We are free indeed.

arcura

Jan 2, 2010, 10:52 PM

lambsev,
Yes Jesus is the savior not the law, but Jesus tells us that we are expected to obey the law.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

sndbay

Jan 3, 2010, 10:45 AM

What makes it easier to understand the question of this thread is obedience to God, and His will being done on earth as it is in heaven.

Ask yourself what Christ did? We are told to follow His footsteps.

The royal law known in James 2:8 is "Love" and that means to love your neighbors.

So our discipline is love! Love God above all, love each other as he loved us, love your parents and family. Let that love determine how you treat one another. And in that love comes what determines how much you love God. Do you love God enough, to do as He created you to be in HIS likeness? His likeness would be not the facial appears of God, but it is the righteousness and truth that He offers us.

Adam and Eve failed to do the righteous will of God, but Christ set us free from that curse. Christ lived the righteous will of HIS Father, and we walk then in His footsteps to follow HIM..

Love is the completed circle in discipline that has been given to you as a calling of hope.

It became a decision by freewill to answer that calling. As the bread comes from the Father in revealed truth, who will answer that calling, and who will not fall asleep. Who out of love for Christ Jesus will walk as He walked? Remembering that Christ spoke, and did everything according to HIS Father in heaven. Showing complete love to HIS Father in heaven.

Can you walk as He walked? We are to be begotten again, being one with Christ as He was one with the Father.

sndbay

Jan 3, 2010, 10:59 AM

I mean, is Thou shalt not steal one of the Laws that was nailed to the cross? What do you think?

It is written: Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross

ordinances = what is legal, proper, fitting, custom, behavior
law = body of prophetic teaching
commandments = code of wisdom, what is prohabited by the precept of God
statutes = civil enactments prescribed by God

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/blood-christ-final-statute-418031-7.html

galveston

Jan 3, 2010, 02:04 PM

Gal 5:1-4
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

John 1:17
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

You are either under Law or Grace. Not both.

Jesus did fulfill every "jot and tittle" of the law; therefore everyone who is "in" Him is counted as having done so.

Jesus incorporated the moral law into His teaching and made it binding on His followers. He allowed his disciples to violate the Sabbath, and did Himself heal sick people on that day.

On judgment day, we will stand before the bar as either under Law or Grace.

If under Law, then we will be on our own and the Law will condemn us.

If under Grace, then we are free from the curse of the Law.

Wondergirl

Jan 3, 2010, 03:28 PM

The 7th day Sabbath was changed to Sun Day.
Sunday became the new Sabbath in order to commemorate and celebrate Jesus' resurrection (years before Constantine showed up on the scene).

Wondergirl

Jan 3, 2010, 03:38 PM

The Law = S.O.S. = Shows Our Sins
The Gospel = S.O.S. = Shows Our Savior

Because Jesus lived a perfect life under the Law and saved us from its condemnation, we are now free to live a life of love and service to our fellow man.

We do not do good works out of fear of the Law's punishment, but out of love for Jesus Christ and to emulate Him.

Matthew 25 --
34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'"

sndbay

Jan 3, 2010, 05:04 PM

Jesus did fulfill every "jot and tittle" of the law; therefore everyone who is "in" Him is counted as having done so.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is to walk in light and not in darkness.

Romans 8:3-4 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

~in Christ

sndbay

Jan 3, 2010, 05:18 PM

Col 3:1-2-3

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

One death on the cross with Christ
One baptism to be buried and raise as Christ raised.

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances

If you wish to die the second death then continue to sin and eat at satan's table!

(Rev 2:11, Rev 20:6, Rev 20:14, Rev 21:8)

arcura

Jan 3, 2010, 11:59 PM

I Newton

Jan 4, 2010, 03:25 AM

You are right Jackson.

I cannot comment on what different religions say but if the bible is anything to go by, then the 10 commandments were done away with but we are still bound by the spirit of the commandments.

If you find a commandment repeated in the new testament then we are expected to obey it.

If one is not repaeted, then it wouldhave been part of the Mosaic law that we no longer follow.

The two commandments that Jesus mentioned, actually covers the 10 commandments.

If you love your neighbour (Samaritans, neighbours were also enemies) as yourself, you would not steal from them, kill them, lie about them, disrespect them, etc etc etc.

If you love the God of the Bible, you would not mix his requirements with those of other religions, i.e. have other Gods.

So you would want to keep your worship as pure as you can, hence the first century Christians were willing to be fed to the lions rather than do anything different to what Jesus instructed them.

sndbay

Jan 4, 2010, 08:11 AM

sndbay,
I believe that you are right that following Christ is to emulate what He did and a big part of that was obeying the ten commandments.
Thus we are expected to do so.
Also another is to forgive as Jesus demonstrated.
He also told us that if we are to be forgiven of our sins then we MUST forgive others in the same manner we want to be forgiven.
So the best way to forgive is quickly and without conditions.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Yes Fred as it is written in Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

It is written: Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

lambsev

Jan 4, 2010, 10:42 AM

galveston

Jan 4, 2010, 02:05 PM

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

And without the new nature received at the time of salvation, it is impossible to love God according to the commandment.

Therefore, since carnal, unregenerated man can NOT love God, he has broken the first commandment, and therefore all the Law.

Aren't you thankful for your new nature!:)

lambsev

Jan 4, 2010, 03:07 PM

Yes and Amen to that!:D

2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Wondergirl

Jan 4, 2010, 06:14 PM

The two commandments that Jesus mentioned, actually covers the 10 commandments.
Israel was a very young nation that didn't understand love, so at this point in their growth, God couldn't say, "Love me and love your neighbor." Israel wouldn't have known what God meant. God had to give them rules and regulations (the Ten Commandments), lots of dos and don'ts. It's like God was raising a young child who has to be told "No" because the child doesn't know how to express love; he understands only "no." Later, God felt the nation was ready for lessons on how to love, so Jesus did the teaching for those.

arcura

Jan 5, 2010, 01:35 AM

Wondergirl,
Yes that's true.
The 10 Commandments are a blueprint of how to live this life well and it is summed up in the 2 great Commandments.
I wish all here to have a wonderful, happy, and prosperous new year.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

sndbay

Jan 5, 2010, 04:24 AM

Let us remember Christ suffered on the cross to fulfilled scripture, He suffered baptism to fufill baptism, and Christ came not to destroy the commandments or the law but to fulfill them.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

~in Christ

lambsev

Jan 5, 2010, 01:06 PM

Actually God did say both those things to Israel:

Deuteronomy 6:5
And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Leviticus 19:18
Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

He even said the following which is tantamount to saying "love your enemies":

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

arcura

Jan 5, 2010, 11:45 PM

Lambserv,
Well said.
Fred

Wondergirl

Jan 6, 2010, 12:24 AM

Actually God did say both those things to Israel
But like a small child, Israel had no idea what "love" meant, so had to be told item by item what should and should not be done.

Don't kick your brother.
Don't spit on your sister.
Don't keep tapping Mother's shoulder in order to say something.
Don't sass your father.

sndbay

Jan 6, 2010, 05:24 AM

But like a small child, Israel had no idea what "love" meant, so had to be told item by item what should and should not be done.

Don't kick your brother.
Don't spit on your sister.
Don't keep tapping Mother's shoulder in order to say something.
Don't sass your father.

Would you agree that it is direction and discipline in what to love? I trust they had knowledge of love but had to direct discipline in what to love. The same holds true today.

Wondergirl

Jan 6, 2010, 06:28 AM

Would you agree that it is direction and discipline in what to love? I trust they had knowledge of love but had to direct discipline in what to love. The same holds true today.
They were told specifically what NOT to do with the hope that they would conform to that and thus learn the opposite. That is, once they had learned NO, the opposite would be YES. Don't spit on your brother would then come to mean "you love and respect your brother by being nice to him when you don't spit on him (or kick him or slap him or break his toys)" or "when you DON'T tease or force your girlfriend into having sex, you thereby show her you love and respect her."

No, I do not think they had knowledge of love until learning the NO part hopefully caused them to see the opposite, the YES.

If you have a child, you will understand.

lambsev

Jan 6, 2010, 02:12 PM

According to Luke 16, the story the rich man and Lazarus, we do need the law to lead us to Christ. As children of christian parents we should and ought to have the commandments explained to us. Others like myself who are born again as adults usually have learned the law from many painful mistakes, mistakes we might have avoided by the knowledge of the 10 Commandments and even the law. Nonetheless, I wonder sometimes why we don't all "get it" that God is love just from the evidence of His craetion...

Wondergirl

Jan 6, 2010, 03:00 PM

Others like myself who are born again as adults usually have learned the law from many painful mistakes, mistakes we might have avoided by the knowledge of the 10 Commandments and even the law.
Even knowledge of the Commandments doesn't allow us to avoid making mistakes. We wake up each morning with a clean slate, and that slate becomes dirty within an hour (I'm being generous) after we get out of bed.

Nonetheless, I wonder sometimes why we don't all "get it" that God is love just from the evidence of His craetion...
God's creation is full of animals killing other animals, avalanches sliding down onto helpless creatures and killing them, mudslides, earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes, man killing man or otherwise hurting him, car and other transportation accidents, vegetation falls and dies, weeds grow in gardens... should I go on? What's to "get"? Like the hymn "The World Is Very Evil" by Bernard of Morlas, 12th century, there's death and destruction everywhere we look.

sndbay

Jan 6, 2010, 03:58 PM

Even knowledge of the Commandments doesn't allow us to avoid making mistakes. We wake up each morning with a clean slate, and that slate becomes dirty within an hour (I'm being generous) after we get out of bed.

Eph 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
Eph 4:21-22 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

galveston

Jan 7, 2010, 12:38 PM

lambsev

Jan 7, 2010, 03:48 PM

Eph 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
Eph 4:21-22 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

I pray we all have "good success" in this. As the Lord told Joshua:

Joshua 1:7-9 (King James Version)

7 Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper withersoever thou goest.

8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

9 Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the LORD thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest.

lambsev

Jan 7, 2010, 03:51 PM

The ONE subject that the Apostle Paul dealt with in his letter to the Galatians was about Law keeping.

A careful, thoughtful reading of that letter will clear up this whole issue and give a definitive answer to the OP.

True! And back it up by studying Romans and Hebrews. The quote from Habakkuk 2:4 "Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith" appears in Galatians, Romans and Hebrews!! :D

Wondergirl

Jan 7, 2010, 05:22 PM

Amos would be much more appropriate.

"He has showed you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?" Micah 6:8

lambsev

Jan 7, 2010, 05:26 PM

Amos would be much more appropriate.

Why Amos?

Wondergirl

Jan 7, 2010, 05:51 PM

Why Amos?
Deed triumphs over creed.

lambsev

Jan 7, 2010, 05:57 PM

Deed triumphs over creed.

Creed? Or faith?

Deeds without faith are filthy rags:

Isaiah 64:6
For we have all become like one who is unclean [ceremonially, like a leper], and all our righteousness (our best deeds of rightness and justice) is like filthy rags or a polluted garment; we all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away [far from God's favor, hurrying us toward destruction].

Faith must lead, and works follow.

Wondergirl

Jan 7, 2010, 06:05 PM

Deeds without faith are filthy rags: Isaiah 64:6

What's "faith" without deeds?

All I've seen here is creed.

lambsev

Jan 8, 2010, 12:17 PM

What's "faith" without deeds?

All I've seen here is creed.

So is what you are saying this: that this discussion is not of faith? Then it is sin according to Romans 14:23c "...for whatsoever is not of faith is sin." If this is so perhaps you should refrain from the discussion.

The dictionary yielded these definitions of creed:

1 : a brief authoritative formula of religious belief
2 : a set of fundamental beliefs; also : a guiding principle

Perhaps you should define deeds for us.

arcura

Jan 9, 2010, 12:31 AM

Faith without deeds (works) is dead so the bible says.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

sndbay

Jan 9, 2010, 05:43 AM

I pray we all have "good success" in this. As the Lord told Joshua:

Joshua 1:7-9 (King James Version)

7 Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper withersoever thou goest.

8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

9 Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the LORD thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest.

Putting on the new man to follow Christ in righteousness is exampled in Luke. But before you review the parables of Luke, what we have to acknowledge is that once you have put on the new man which would be unity unto Christ, there is no double minded, or sinful nature. Everything written concerning the new creature or new man says the old passes away. That is what it meant to dead with Christ. (2 Cor 5:17 Eph 2:15 Eph 4:24 Col 3:10) Thus you leave the law or schoolmaster because the law is written in your heart (Isa 51:7), you have a good conscience toward God. Buried then in baptism able to raise as Christ did.

Reference Luke: The new!

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

This is the old nature of man, the ones not willing to follow in righteousness. The sinful nature that does not please God. If you remain as the old man then you are a sinner Review--> (1 John 3)Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us,

Luke 5:36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.

Luke 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.

Christ set us free, we are no longer in bondage to sin. Christ is the completeness and our rest. We only need to follow HIM, and that means in HIs footsteps. This is all written and the truth sancified us.

John 17: 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Belieiving in Christ, and having the spirit to walk in righteousness, where Christ dwells in you. If one does not believe this, one does not believe in HIS worthinesss.
~behold the glory in Christ

arcura

Jan 9, 2010, 03:33 PM

Regardless...
We who put on Christ are still human and therefore sinful.
Not one of us is completely free from sin for we still sin.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Wondergirl

Jan 9, 2010, 04:03 PM

So is what you are saying this: that this discussion is not of faith?
Correct. I'm saying too often the conversation with the non-Christian is all about creed -- what does the non-Christian believe and "Believe what I believe" -- when, in fact, that should be the LEAST worry by a Christian at that point. Deed, not creed, is the important connection.

Wondergirl

Jan 9, 2010, 04:07 PM

once you have put on the new man which would be unity unto Christ, there is no double minded, or sinful nature.
But that doesn't happen in this life. We never escape our sinfulness.

sndbay

Jan 10, 2010, 05:24 AM

Regardless...
We who put on Christ are still human and therefore sinful.
Not one of us is completely free from sin for we still sin.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Those that do not believe in the worthiness of HIS blood remain under the law. 1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

~in Christ

sndbay

Jan 10, 2010, 05:35 AM

But that doesn't happen in this life. We never escape our sinfulness.

Acts 28:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Hebrew 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrew 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Wondergirl

Jan 10, 2010, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl: But that doesn't happen in this life. We never escape our sinfulness.

Acts 28:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Hebrew 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrew 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Quoting verse after verse does not impress. Even Satan can quote from the Bible.

So you are saying by mouthing Bible verses that you do not sin here on earth. You have escaped already into a higher plane of sainthood.

I think you don't get it, don't understand what you quote.

sndbay

Jan 10, 2010, 12:35 PM

So you are saying by mouthing Bible verses that you do not sin here on earth. You have escaped already into a higher plane of sainthood.

Are you saying you are a child of satan not born of God?

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I believe in the new birth, the begotten again through Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

~in Christ

galveston

Jan 10, 2010, 12:36 PM

Quoting verse after verse does not impress. Even Satan can quote from the Bible.

So you are saying by mouthing Bible verses that you do not sin here on earth. You have escaped already into a higher plane of sainthood.

I think you don't get it, don't understand what you quote.

What you (and many others) are missing is that element in the equasion called "FAITH".

The world may discount it, but God honors it. When a human accepts the sacrifice that Jesus made (by faith), then Jesus' perfection is counted as belonging to the believer in the eyes of God.

Does that mean believers are free from all responsibility to hold to a holy standard?

Not at all.

Every part of the Law that Jesus brought into the new Covenant is binding upon the believer, and while the believe may occasionally commit a sin, he/she will NOT live a sinful life style, i.e. sin every day.

The Holy Spirit will not allow it. He will convict a believer for sin immediately, and that believer will repent just as immediately. (If not, then that believer is indeed living in sin and is now in danger.)

Grace does NOT give licence to sin.

sndbay

Jan 10, 2010, 01:53 PM

Grace does NOT give licence to sin.

Thank you and so true..

That is why faith without works is dead. We are to be servants of righteousness, following in the light of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Chirst.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

I pray to be all God created me to be, in His hand of strength, and His will to be done. In Jesus name of glory Amen

And as it can be seen in my posting, I too hope that all men and women can come to the revelation of Christ Jesus. Knowing the fulness of Christ Jesus. That they will answer to the call of One Body, One Spirit, One Hope, One Faith, One Lord One Baptism, One God and Father above all, through all and in us all.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Wondergirl

Jan 10, 2010, 02:05 PM

the believe [sic] may occasionally commit a sin, he/she will NOT live a sinful life style, i.e. sin every day.
Of course a believer sins every day!!

Grace does NOT give licence to sin.
No, it doesn't, but we do sin -- yes, we do.

Wondergirl

Jan 10, 2010, 02:09 PM

That is why faith without works is dead. We are to be servants of righteousness, following in the light of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Chirst.
So why have the non-Christians been chased off this board? Sounds like the works are not working.

sndbay

Jan 10, 2010, 02:24 PM

So why have the non-Christians been chased off this board? Sounds like the works are not working.

Wondergirl would you say the same concerning Jesus, Did He chase people away when He told of the truth? Was He wrong setting the example in saying sin no more.

Wondergirl

Jan 10, 2010, 02:29 PM

Wondergirl would you say the same concerning Jesus, Did He chase people away when He told of the truth? Was He wrong setting the example in saying sin no more.
I'm not talking about Jesus. I'm talking about people who post on this board.

Christians don't sin "no more." Christians sin many times a day despite Jesus' example.

sndbay

Jan 10, 2010, 02:43 PM

I'm not talking about Jesus. I'm talking about people who post on this board.

Christians don't sin "no more." Christians sin many times a day despite Jesus' example.

Hebrew 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins

Once you have put on Christ, you walk having the spirit. Those that follow are dead to sin and the law.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Reveiw Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Wondergirl

Jan 10, 2010, 02:47 PM

Once you have put on Christ, you walk having the spirit. Those that follow are dead to sin and the law.
So you're saying Christians don't sin.

sndbay

Jan 10, 2010, 02:55 PM

So you're saying Christians don't sin.

Remember what scripture said concerning those not wanting to drink of the new. People in general enjoy doing as they please. Christ told us we have to deny ourselves to follow HIM.

ASk yourself who is the light of this world? Then review what Christ said about those who see the light of day, the light of this world.

John11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. 11:10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

Wondergirl

Jan 10, 2010, 03:00 PM

Remember what scripture said concerning those not wanting to drink of the new. People in general enjoy doing as they please. Christ told us we have to deny ourselves to follow HIM.

Yet Christians sin every day and maybe even every hour.

sndbay

Jan 10, 2010, 03:14 PM

Yet Christians sin every day and maybe even every hour.

Wondergirl I believe in Christ Jesus, and I am spiritual minded. Chirst is the Shepherd and Bishop of the soul. Those led by the Spirit are born again as a child of God It is written in: (Romans 8:14)

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Wondergirl

Jan 10, 2010, 03:17 PM

Wondergirl I believe in Christ Jesus, and I am spiritual minded.
Does that mean you don't sin?

sndbay

Jan 10, 2010, 03:27 PM

Does that mean you don't sin?

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

I abide in Christ!

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

~I tell the truth in Christ Jesus

Wondergirl

Jan 10, 2010, 03:35 PM

Ah. Sndbay does not sin. Now I understand why the non-Christians were driven off this board.

arcura

Jan 10, 2010, 10:38 PM

Wondergirl,
That was a bit harsh, but it may be true for some.
Unfortunately we are all sinners to one extent or another.
It is sad that there may be some who THINK that they do not sin.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Wondergirl

Jan 10, 2010, 11:40 PM

Wondergirl,
That was a bit harsh
Yes, it was, but it's that kind of attitude that prevents this board from being the fantastic mission opportunity it could be. And thank you, arcura, for your response.

Maggie 3

Jan 11, 2010, 12:07 AM

Wondergirl, 1John 3:6 "Whoever abides in Him does not sin.Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him"
Jesus said we believers who abide in Him, draw near to Him, listen to His word and obey them would bear much fruit, and that glorifies the Father.
Fruitful believers have the power to avoid sin. [John 8:16]
1John 3:20 "For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our
heart, and know all things."
We believers want more than anything else, to please God and obey Him
We have tender consciences that can condemn, but The Spirit
Himself bears witness-- that we are children of God. [Rom. 8:16]

Love and Blessings, Maggie 3

Wondergirl

Jan 11, 2010, 08:43 AM

Wondergirl, 1John 3:6 "Whoever abides in Him does not sin.Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him"
Jesus said we believers who abide in Him, draw near to Him, listen to His word and obey them would bear much fruit, and that glorifies the Father.
Fruitful believers have the power to avoid sin. [John 8:16]
1John 3:20 "For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our
heart, and know all things."
We believers want more than anything else, to please God and obey Him
we have tender consciences that can condemn, but The Spirit
Himself bears witness-- that we are children of God. [Rom. 8:16]

So now please tell me in your own words what that means.

galveston

Jan 11, 2010, 09:51 AM

WG,

You're still not getting it.

Believers do not depend on their own righteousness, but upon Christ's righteousness.

AND:

You seem to confuse "church member" with "Christian".

Church members may sin on a regular basis, Christians do not.

I'm not saying that a Christian will NEVER sin, but that will not be their normal life style, and their sins will be mostly in the area of attitutes.

A Christian will not live in adultry or fornicaton because they know it to be sin. They will not steal or kill. They will not be habitual liars, because they know that Satan is the father of lies.

Yes, a Christian may slip up and sin, but he will nor REMAIN in that state unless he has completely given up his faith.

Hope this clarifies.

Wondergirl

Jan 11, 2010, 11:37 AM

WG,

You're still not getting it.
Oh, yes. I get it.

Maggie 3

Jan 11, 2010, 12:45 PM

If we believers sin, we are not written off the list or kicked out of the family, for we have an advocate, a defense attorney in Jesus Christ.
He paid the full price for sin, of the whole world. Old sin, the now sin,
and sin to come. Jesus took care of all sin at the cross, He did not
leave any sin out except one. The blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, that
is the repeated refusal to listen to the Spirit speaking to one's heart, saying, "You need a Savior, Jesus. Jesus paid the price for your sin.
Accept His free gift of salvation".
Jesus is our defense attorney, He is our propitiation for our sin that
schould have been hurled on us. Look at it this way. I broke the law
driving eighty miles an hour in a 40 mile an hour zone. An officer of the law
takes me into a courtroom before a judge. I am afraid and weak, but I
am greatly relieved to discover the judge is my Father, my dad, He
knows me. But to my surprise I hear His voice say "Guilty" and fined
five thousand dollars or five years in jail ". How can this be I said
you are my dad, He answer's "in this courtroom I am your judge.
I have no money so the cuffs are put on my wrists to be hauled to jail.
Justice must be done" he said. The judge stands up, takes off his robe,
and leaves the bench to stand beside me and pays my fine.
Justice is served because the price of sin of speeding was paid--
not by me but by my father who paid a debt I was unable to pay.
That is exactly what happened when Jesus Christ became the
propitiation, the payment for my sin.

I hope this helps you understand what I am saying, Wondergirl.

Love and Blessings, Maggie 3

Wondergirl

Jan 11, 2010, 06:09 PM

If we believers sin, we are not written off the list or kicked out of the family, for we have an advocate, a defense attorney in Jesus Christ.

Justice is served because the price of sin of speeding was paid--
not by me but by my father who paid a debt I was unable to pay. That is exactly what happened when Jesus Christ became the
propitiation, the payment for my sin.

I hope this helps you understand what I am saying, Wondergirl.

Love and Blessings, Maggie 3
Yes, all that is true and wonderful, but does not answer my question, Do Christians still continue to sin every day?

Gal said, "Church members may sin on a regular basis, Christians do not."

Maggie 3

Jan 11, 2010, 08:51 PM

Wondergirl, as a child of God I take the Word of God as truth in my life.
And in Rom. 8:1, I am told there is now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. He is saying there is no condemnation or sin in me
in His eyes. People that are not a part of God's family may not see it that way but truth is truth if God is saying it. You can take it or leave it.
The cross was a big deal for the chrildern of God, His Son Jesus died
for my sin, all my sin, was paid for,for all times, at the cross. In Gods eyes I do not sin, Jesus blood covers my sins. I love the Lord with all my
heart, sole, mind and being and will serve Him and follow Him all of my
days. Rom.8:2 "For the law of the spirit of life in Chirst Jesus hath made
me free from the law of sin and death". I am free by the Spirit of Christ
Jesus, He lives in me, enabling me to fly high and overcome the law
of sin and death. Hallelujah
If a person is not a child of God, he can not understand spiritul things.

Love and Blessing, Maggie 3

Wondergirl

Jan 11, 2010, 09:59 PM

And in Rom. 8:1, I am told there is now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. He is saying there is no condemnation or sin in me in His eyes.
No condemnation is different from no sin. Sin is there, but, because of faith that struggles against it, God does not reckon sin as deserving damnation. But the sin is still there, is struggled against every day and every hour. As a well-known person once said: "Lord, I believe. Help thou mine unbelief!"

arcura

Jan 11, 2010, 10:56 PM

Maggie 3,
Then why are all we morals still sinners?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

arcura

Jan 11, 2010, 10:58 PM

Wondergirl,
Yes I do believe that even very good Christians still do sin
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Wondergirl

Jan 12, 2010, 08:10 AM

Wondergirl,
Yes I do believe that even very good Christians still do sin
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Yes, Fred. Everyone sins as long as he is a resident on this earth.

I'm wondering if this is one of the reasons opportunities for mission work fail, because the Christian puts on an air of arrogance over the non-Christian ("I no longer sin, but you do").

lambsev

Jan 12, 2010, 08:54 AM

Putting on the new man to follow Christ in righteousness is exampled in Luke. But before you review the parables of Luke, what we have to acknowledge is that once you have put on the new man which would be unity unto Christ, there is no double minded, or sinful nature. Everything written concerning the new creature or new man says the old passes away. That is what it meant to dead with Christ. (2 Cor 5:17 Eph 2:15 Eph 4:24 Col 3:10) Thus you leave the law or schoolmaster because the law is written in your heart (Isa 51:7), you have a good conscience toward God. Buried then in baptism able to raise as Christ did.

Reference Luke: The new!

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

This is the old nature of man, the ones not willing to follow in righteousness. The sinful nature that does not please God. If you remain as the old man then you are a sinner Review--> (1 John 3)Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us,

Luke 5:36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.

Luke 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.

Christ set us free, we are no longer in bondage to sin. Christ is the completeness and our rest. We only need to follow HIM, and that means in HIs footsteps. This is all written and the truth sancified us.

John 17: 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Belieiving in Christ, and having the spirit to walk in righteousness, where Christ dwells in you. If one does not believe this, one does not believe in HIS worthinesss.
~behold the glory in Christ

Dear sndbay, Please, you can pray for me any time! I am jealous in a good way of your zeal and your commitment to the NEW covenant creation. TY for the post.

lambsev

Jan 12, 2010, 09:01 AM

But that doesn't happen in this life. We never escape our sinfulness.

Being sin full is to have no room left for holiness. To remain sin full means no repentance has taken place and our hearts are unregenerate. The WORKS, the deeds of God include repentance, and the first of the deeds of repentance is this: faith itself, and the nurture and admonition necessary for it's growth.

John 6:
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Romans 15:14
And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.

Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Psalm 1
1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

for the ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.

5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Psalm 131
1 Lord, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me.

2 Surely I have behaved and quieted myself, as a child that is weaned of his mother: my soul is even as a weaned child.

Psalm 12
1 Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.

2 They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.

3 The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:

4 Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?

5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.

6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

8 The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.

3 Let Israel hope in the LORD from henceforth and for ever.

lambsev

Jan 12, 2010, 09:08 AM

What you (and many others) are missing is that element in the equasion called "FAITH".

The world may discount it, but God honors it. When a human accepts the sacrifice that Jesus made (by faith), then Jesus' perfection is counted as belonging to the believer in the eyes of God.

Does that mean believers are free from all responsibility to hold to a holy standard?

Not at all.

Every part of the Law that Jesus brought into the new Covenant is binding upon the believer, and while the believe may occasionally commit a sin, he/she will NOT live a sinful life style, ie, sin every day.

The Holy Spirit will not allow it. He will convict a believer for sin immediately, and that believer will repent just as immediately. (If not, then that believer is indeed living in sin and is now in danger.)

Grace does NOT give licence to sin.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Nonetheless:

Hebrews 2:2-4
2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward;

3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

1 Thessalonians 4:
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

10 And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;

11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;

12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

lambsev

Jan 12, 2010, 09:18 AM

Of course a believer sins every day!!!

No, it doesn't, but we do sin -- yes, we do.

We were conceived in sin, and we dwell in a sinning world system, but this does not excuse sin for any man or woman, especially those who claim to have the Salvation from sin and death in Jesus blood, name and Spirit. In North Americam there is a grave misunderstanding of the call of God. It IS and call to be holy and to be perfect (complete in the Spirit of God). It is a call to abandon the sins of days past. To be content to be sinful is to be completely exposed to death for the wages of sin is death. Why then is God so patiernt with us? Partly because He knows how deep the deceits of the devil are in our minds and hearts, aand partly because we have so few true teachers of the Word. Teachers are essential to equip the believing community to do the WORK of the ministry. I recently asked a man who is calling himself an apostle, "What is the work of the ministry?" and he said: "That is a good question." I didn't get a chance yet to press him on the matter, but do you know what the WORK of the ministry is, Wondergirl? I do.

lambsev

Jan 12, 2010, 09:34 AM

It is the practice of sin verses the practice of repentance which keeps us on our toes if we will listen to the Spirit of Holiness. God is not going to ever be pleased if we excuse sin in our lives which we know to be sin. He is able to gently and kindly lead us out of ignorance, both ignorance of sin (the deceits of Satan) and ignorance of the mind of Christ (true doctrine). But where we are clearly informed by the Holy Spirit and knowledgeable about our defects, our sins and our sinful habits, we are also clearly called to do whatever is necessary to have the power of sin broken off us. This may mean leaving friends behind, and even family in extreme cases. It may mean seeking the elders for anointing with oil. It may mean leaving a job, or a neighborhood, or a city. It may mean fasting. It may mean seeking out those who are able to cast out demons. It will CERTAINLY mean fleeing youthful lusts, fornication, idolatry, envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, perverse disputings, and greed, and every WORK of the flesh.

We need to think more about what it cost Jesus to purchase our souls back from Satan and from hell.

Hebrews 12
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Do we really love God and treasure His Kingdom? Then we ought to crave His chastening that will raise us up to life eternal.