I know the bible says that if a person is not saved and is burned up in the fires of hell that the smoke of his torment ariseth forever. Does that mean that he will actually suffer the pain and torment forever? Or once he is burned in the fires of hell he will no longer be conscious? Kind of confusing to me.

Basically, there is no such place as "hell" or "heaven" (scientifically and physically). However, spiritually, there are such places. In hell, you'll stay conscious forever, walking the underworld amidst the flaming walls and the burning magma around you. Therefore, you will suffer eternal damnation forever.

However, there is a better side to this. It only happens if you're "bad" on earth. If you're good, you go to heaven and live with good people, and so on.

I know the bible says that if a person is not saved and is burned up in the fires of hell that the smoke of his torment ariseth forever. Does that mean that he will actually suffer the pain and torment forever? Or once he is burned in the fires of hell he will no longer be conscious? Kinda confusing to me.
Would it mean anything to you if you knew that many scholars assert that the word "hell" means "grave"? Would you begin to face your creator out of love and admiration instead of trembling in the presence?

Other scholars assert "Who cares what the word hell means? It doesn't change anything". Answering this question is difficult because a true answer would not fall short of telling you what to believe. I can only go so far with an answer because I have no expertise in what you SHOULD believe.

In Christianity many see it as a actual fire and burning, but then there is another theme where it will be the spiritual doom of knowing there is a God but not living within his blessings.
And a few that see it as an eternal death, after punishment they will just stop to exisit.

The main idea is to realise that the choice of not accepting is a bad idea no matter what, and of course if there was not a hell, Jesus would not have had to come to save mankind that would accept him. So just that fact that he came and died and raised from the dead is all that is needed to know beyond a doubt that some level of hell does exist.

And it of course hell be a indivicual things, living an forever in the worst life you can ever have. But the idea of living without the love of jesus in your heart for me would be the worst hell ever possible.

I know the bible says that if a person is not saved and is burned up in the fires of hell that the smoke of his torment ariseth forever. Does that mean that he will actually suffer the pain and torment forever? Or once he is burned in the fires of hell he will no longer be conscious? Kinda confusing to me.
Well lets look at the world hell... Hell was an english word described for Hades. Hades which was written in hebrew had nothing to with fire. I believe the english translation of the world came some years, maybe centuries later. Hades however is a place of torment. I personally believe that it may be a form of depression. So in essence, Hell is a mental depression that never goes away. Jesus went to hell, to save souls. This is biblical. I personally don't believe in a hell with a fire. However mental depression with no help available is enuff without the fire. Hades is listed as a bottomless pit... It could also be translated as a mental depression with no end.

However, there is a better side to this. It only happens if you're "bad" on earth. If you're good, you go to heaven and live with good people, and so on.

Sort of wrong sorry mate, we christians believe that all people are sinners, so you cannot "earn" your way into heaven by being good, because no one is completely good every moment of their life, the only way is to accept jesus christ as your personal lord and saviour. Also, hell in my view, is a place of pure evil.
Evil is the lack of god, just as darkness is the lack of light, cold is the lack of heat, etc.
So hell is the one place where god isn't, the one exception to gods omniprescence.

Jesus speaks of the unquenchable fire, Gehenna. MT 13:41-42 says " The son of Man will scend his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all who cause others to sin and all evildoers. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth." MT 25:41 Jesus says "Then he will say to those on his left, depart from ne, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Eternal is forever, and it sounds like hell is quite hot too.

The one thing people NEVER seem to think about is the "literal" side to all of the "heaven and hell" arguments. Seriously, though--it's not that difficult, but people make it so.

Think of it like this, and you'll never be "scared" of a "hell" or whatever again:

If you don't have a BODY (ie physically, with nerve endings, blood, etc.) then HOW are you supposed to feel the "burning hellfires" that proverbially go along with the fairy tale taught to us as children?

It's all so "Brothers Grimm" to me. There isn't anything after we die except death. Everything we experience while breathing and all consciousness stops. No brain---no realization, no anything.

The one thing people NEVER seem to think about is the "literal" side to all of the "heaven and hell" arguments. Seriously, though--it's not that difficult, but people make it so.

Think of it like this, and you'll never be "scared" of a "hell" or whatever again:

If you don't have a BODY (ie physically, with nerve endings, blood, etc.) then HOW are you supposed to feel the "burning hellfires" that proverbially go along with the fairy tale taught to us as children?

It's all so "Brothers Grimm" to me. There isn't anything after we die except death. Everything we experience while breathing and all consciousness stops. No brain---no realization, no anything.

If humans have no eternal soul then you are right. Death of the body would be the end. However, it seems that rr man is asking for a christian perspective, and every type of christian denomination I know of teaches that humans have an eternal soul. So to christians, death is not the end but the beginning of eternity ether with God, or apart from God.

Jesus speaks of the unquenchable fire, Gehenna. MT 13:41-42 says " The son of Man will scend his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all who cause others to sin and all evildoers. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth." MT 25:41 Jesus says "Then he will say to those on his left, depart from ne, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Eternal is forever, and it sounds like hell is quite hot too.


Gehhenna was an incinerator outside the walls of Jerusalem where garbage and the bodies of dead criminals deamed unworthy of burial and by extension a resurrection
Were thrown.

What Is Hell? (http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/ACCC/k/732)

BTW

Why would God want to condemn someone to eternal torture? Isn't torture a criminal offense and any country using it as punishment considered barbarian?

BTW

Why would God want to condemn someone to eternal torture? Isn't torture a criminal offense and any country using it as punishment considered barbarian?

2pet 3:19 says God does not want any to perish but that all should come to repentance.
It is a willful turning away from God that condemns one to eternal torture. If we choose to separate our self from God, it is by our own free will.

I know the bible says that if a person is not saved and is burned up in the fires of hell that the smoke of his torment ariseth forever. Does that mean that he will actually suffer the pain and torment forever? Or once he is burned in the fires of hell he will no longer be conscious? Kinda confusing to me.
Yes, if you are a nonbeliever, you will burn in hell forever. You will feel it forever and it will burnrnrrnrnrnrnrnrnrnrnrn forever. You ask God into your heart to be your personal Lord and Savior. Believe that he died on the cross to pay for all of my sins, your sins, etc. Living a life for God is the most wonderful decision one could ever make. The bible says it all. Would you like me to pray for you or anyone else? God Bless, Sunshine2

If humans have no eternal soul then you are right. Death of the body would be the end. However, it seems that rr man is asking for a christian perspective, and every type of christian denomination I know of teaches that humans have an eternal soul. So to christians, death is not the end but the beginning of eternity ether with God, or apart from God.


Basically, this is how it goes, from a christian perspective.
I have a Soul. I inhabit a Body. I am A spirit.
The soul in my opinion is sort of like your body after you die in a way, the true person is the spirit, not a waaaaa I'm a ghost kind of spirit though, something deeper. The body dies, but the spirit and the soul are undying.

Not everyone agrees that the eternal torture consequence is biblical.


THE BIBLICAL TRUTH ABOUT HELL. (http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/hell.htm)

BTW
Anyone who condemns a sentient creature to eternal agony is neither good nor deserves to be worshipped. In my opinion Of course that doesn't mean that such an entity will lack worshippers. It only means that such an entity can't count on me to worship him or to pronounce him as good.

2pet 3:19 says God does not want any to perish but that all should come to repentance.
It is a willful turning away from God that condemns one to eternal torture. If we choose to separate our self from God, it is by our own free will.


If God is the one who set the consequence for disobedience as eternal torture, I really don't see how the tortured is to blame for the type of punishment he receives. If I am skinned alive, how is it my fault that the savages doing the skinning chose to use that PARTICULAR method? It's not the choice it's the nature of the consequence for making that choice that is in question. Who benefits from all the agony you say that those who are unrepentant sinners suffer? Just curious.

Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, G.A. res. 39/46, annex, 39 U.N. GAOR Supp. (No. 51) at 197, U.N. Doc. A/39/51 (1984), entered into force June 26, 1987. (http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/h2catoc.htm)

I agree that the punishment is not forever in the Lake of Fire, which is the 2nd death, where Death & Hades get thrown into along with Satan, the beast, & the false prophet. The Satanic 3 may be tormented forever & ever as Revelation says-but I don't believe death & Hades does.
I do believe there is a hell(a temporary holding place) right now-but there is no fire as we know fire. It is just extremely hot. Just as described in Luke 16:19-31-The Rich Man and Lazarus. Also, the devil is not there-he is a spiritual being & is still going to & fro on earth & in the heavenlies to deceive of course.
But I believe the Lake of Fire represents a final purification (but end) to people's sin & state of being.
Quote:
Whatever we hold as the nature of the death state, may we let this truth sink deep into our hearts: DEATH IS TO BE ABOLISHED. The ringing declaration, "The LAST enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (I Cor. 15:26), overthrows the whole structure of accepted, but unproved, theology which shuts up the mass of the human race in "eternal death." When the "last" enemy is abolished it is self-evident that none remains. Those wretched religionists who demand the endlessness of death, who argue for eternal torment in the lake of fire, the second death, do err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. The lake of fire MUST end because death and hell are cast into it, which is the second death, and in the end THERE SHALL BE N-O M-O-R-E D-E-A-T-H. - end quote.

If God is the one who set the consequence for disobedience as eternal torture, I really don't see how the tortured is to blame for the type of punishment he receives. If I am skinned alive, how is it my fault that the savages doing the skinning chose to use that PARTICULAR method? It's not the choice it's the nature of the consequence for making that choice that is in question. Who benefits from all the agony you say that those who are unrepentant sinners suffer? Just curious.

If you are skinned alive, it is the savages fault. It is them acting on their will. You would be the victim. I’m assuming they came after you. You did not come to them knowing you would be skinned alive. I do not see this as a good comparison to the sufferings of hell. God is full of mercy in that he has provided a way to heaven. He does not take away one’s free will however. If you choose to separate yourself from him, it is your choice.

As to who benefits from suffering in hell, I simply do not know. That is beyond my limited understanding.

Thank you Starman for making me think more deeply. :)

Instead of skinned alive,

If you go out and rob a store, and rape the clerk and kill a police officer while trying to get away.

Whose fault is it that you go to prison for life, is it the judges fault, is it the juries fault, is ti the prison guards fault. Is it congress for passing the law. Is it the stone mason who built the prison

No it is the persons fault who did the crime. The same with Hell, and its punishments, the person who is dommed makes those choices that causes them to go there, So one can not blame God and one can not claim to be the victim, they are responsible for their own actions.
It is a common idea of trying to blame others for what we do, that way our choices is not our fault, but in the end each of our choices are ours to be judged by

If a government has torture as its punishing system the government is held accountable for using that system. Torture is a crime against humanity. What you are saying is that those who make torture legal in their country are not to be blamed for using that method. It isn't their fault that people break the law and fall get tortured. That view goes completely contrary to the USA Constitution and the United Nations official declaration of human rights which codemn torture as being a crime.

Because a superior being is said to have instituted it doesn't make it any less of a crime. Actually, that's the might makes right argument taken to its extreme.

BTW
Just recently an American spray painted some cars in Hong Kong and was sentenced to be whipped. The people of the USA were horrified and called it a crime and barbaric and demanded the American's release. So what we have here is a double standard.

If you are skinned alive, it is the savages fault. It is them acting on their will. You would be the victim. I'm assuming they came after you. You did not come to them knowing you would be skinned alive. I do not see this as a good comparison to the sufferings of hell. God is full of mercy in that he has provided a way to heaven. He does not take away one's free will however. If you choose to separate yourself from him, it is your choice.

As to who benefits from suffering in hell, I simply do not know. That is beyond my limited understanding.

Thank you Starman for making me think more deeply. :)

Being full of mercy doesn't quite harmonize with a being who supposedly approves of
Eternal torture as punishment if you don't do what he says. Furthermore, why would God make a place for sinners to torture sinners FOREVER because they have sinned? The devil and his angels are sinners. So how is it that they are believed to be in hell being allowed or given the privilege of enjoying themselves via sadistically torturing helpless human souls?

The being that you are describing to me might arouse fear as a monster, or an insane criminal who has power to harm do. But the being that you are describing does not move me to respect him nor want any part of him since the being you are describing seems to be criminally insane.

The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment (http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/tbhell.html)

Being full of mercy doesn't quite harmonize with a being who supposedly approves of
eternal torture as punishment if you don't do what he says. Furthermore, why would God make a place for sinners to torture sinners FOREVER because they have sinned? The devil and his angels are sinners. So how is it that they are believed to be in hell being allowed or given the privilege of enjoying themselves via sadistically torturing helpless human souls?


Would you rather the devil and his angels be in Heaven being given the privilege of enjoying themselves torturing helpless human souls? I see hell as the eternal separation from God. Heaven is the place for those who desire God. There must be a place then for those who do not.

Would you rather the devil and his angels be in Heaven being given the privilege of enjoying themselves torturing helpless human souls? I see hell as the eternal separation from God. Heaven is the place for those who desire God. There must be a place then for those who do not.



The Bible simply tells us that the penalty for sin is death. If it had been eternal torture Adam would have been told so that he could make an informed decision. Adam knew what God meant by death because God made it clear that it meant turning into inanimate matter again. Any other elaborations are the idea's of men and only serve to make God look evil by keeping creatures alive just so that they can suffer pointlessly since no one benefits from it except maybe a sadistic onlooker.

The Bible simply tells us that the penalty for sin is death. If it had been eternal torture Adam would have been told so that he could make an informed decision. Adam knew what God meant by death because God made it clear that it meant turning into inanimate matter again. Any other elaborations are the idea's of men and only serve to make God look evil by keeping creatures alive just so that they can suffer pointlessly since no one benefits from it except maybe a sadistic onlooker.

This is a good argument and I have heard this argument before. I like to look at salvation history from the whole of Gods word. Jesus spoke about life after death. Does this mean that humans have no soul? That the human soul does not live on after the body dies?

Hell exists because Satan and his angels rebelled against God. They “forced” his hand so to speak. They could not remain in Heaven, for it is no place for evil. God prepared a place for them. This is a place which consists in the deprivation of the glory of God. I do not see this as an act of a God who is a monster, but of a God who is just. God does not wish that any be lost. So, he humbled himself, became man, suffered and died. To me this is an act of a loving God. Not of a God that is criminally insane. Christ clearly spoke of the after life and of those who will be heaven and those who will not.

This is a good argument and I have heard this argument before. I like to look at salvation history from the whole of Gods word. Jesus spoke about life after death. Does this mean that humans have no soul? That the human soul does not live on after the body dies?

Hell exists because Satan and his angels rebelled against God. They “forced” his hand so to speak. They could not remain in Heaven, for it is no place for evil. God prepared a place for them. This is a place which consists in the deprivation of the glory of God. I do not see this as an act of a God who is a monster, but of a God who is just. God does not wish that any be lost. So, he humbled himself, became man, suffered and died. To me this is an act of a loving God. Not of a God that is criminally insane. Christ clearly spoke of the after life and of those who will be heaven and those who will not.


The one who claimed that man wouldn't die and that God was lying when he said that
man would die and become like dust was Satan. The word translated as soul is nephesh and nephesh never refers to an immortal spirit. That's why we read about souls being killed by the edge of the sword, souls having blood, souls feeling hunger, souls being destroyed. The word nephesh is also used in reference to future or present life. These meanings can be easily verified via a Hebrew Lexicon so there is actually no real excuse for not knowing their true meaning.

The Bible Meaning of Soul (http://www.learnbible.net/soul.html)

Immortal Soul Absurdities (http://www.wrestedscriptures.com/b01immortality/immortal_soul_absurdities.html)

Then we have Gehenna, which is merely an incinerator outside the walls of Jerusalem,
the Hebrew word sheol which refers to the common grave of mankind, and the Greek tartarus which refers to a prison-like restricted condition where fallen angels who rebelled in Noah's day are in. The problem is that all are translated as hell regardless of their true meaning and in that fashion contribute to the attack on God's righteous personality. It's also a subtle repetition of the first satanic lie that if we sin we don't die.
Our Immortal Soul (http://www.ex-sda.com/20B-ImmortalSoul.htm)



Here is what the Encyclopaedia Britannica (1971 vol 11 p. 276. Says about the word sheol which is so often irresponsibly translated as hell.

"Sheol" is a place where the state of the dead reside knowing neither pain or pleasure, neither reward for the righteous nor punishment for the wicked. The good and the bad alike, tyrants and saints, kings and orphans, Israelites and Gentiles all sleep together without awareness of one another.

BTW
No one can force God's hand to do evil and torture of sentient creatures is evil and incompatible with a God of love.

Will Jesus Torture Billions Forever? (http://hellbusters.8m.com/eby/torture.htm)

The use of nonbiblical books to support the Bible is an accepted practice.
History books which verify biblical historical accuracy, archelogical books inform us about discoveries which show that the Bible is trustworthy, medical books which show us that the Hebrews were divinely guided in relation to health practices, astronomy books which tell us that the Bible indeed spoke true when it described the earth as spherical and seemingly hanging from nothing, concordances to help us see the inner harmony in the inspired scriptures from Genesis to Revelation, Greek and Hebrew Lexicons which allow us to check the original meaning of words in order to make sure that they have been translated correctly.

As for what I am "trying" to say, it's written in clear English.
You disagree? OK, that is your right.

Just a reminder to all and to our new members for sure,

This is a Christianity section, under Religion but please remember there are many many denominations within Christianity and the teachings of heaven and hell. So remember we are not here to tell another member that their view point is wrong, it is merely to give our view points, or to discuss the view point of the other.

As for as other books, all christian denominations in there seminary use other books to educate their ministers and help explain the various books, often passage by passage. Just as a good bible scholar would never start their study without a greek and hewbrew dictionary, and none will try and study without research in the customs of the people during various years to fully understand what the means of the various bible stories and the such.

While the points don't really count please consider not using the "disagree" just because one denominations teachings does not meet yours. To their church they are not wrong,
You can merely post another replay saying why you think your answer is best.

Why I reject the eternal torture doctrine.


No sugar coating intended--just common sense.

Any interpretation of biblical texts that maligns God's holy character by describing him as capable of injustice is by default unacceptable. Neither are the scriptures always to be translated literally especially in a book like Revelation uses symolic language. Otherwise we'd have to believe that the stars literally fall from the sky, that a real wild beast arises from the sea, that the earth has four corners, that the sea will literally turn to blood, that the woman Called Babylon the Great is a literal woman who rides a reall seven headed animal while she's literally drunk, that a literal city with its upper levels reaching two hundred miles into outer space will descend and that we will all have to live in it. That Jesus is a literal lamb, has a literal wife and that this wife has stars on her head, that a literal dragon arises from a literal sea, that Jesus has a literal sword sticking out of his mouth and uses it to strike the nations and so on. Revelations is a book written in symbols and we are told that it is in its introduction.



Fallacious Reasoning:


First, human beings have rights by virtue of being human. We don't lose our human rights simply because a more powerful being has intentions of depriving us of these rights. One of these rights is that humans should never be subjected to cruel punishment. That's in the Constitution the United States, a Constitution which is praised and imitated by other countries who also value human rights. In short, to agree with the interpretation given above I would have to view God as a violator of human rights. I find that unacceptable and a clear indicator that the interpretation of the above verses in a literally is not the right way.


There is also crass rhetorical inconsistency here because the same people who would praise this type of evil tongue in cheek if their god does it are the same ones who would raise their voices in protest if torture is instituted as punishment in their respective countries. It seems to me as if fear of being tortured forces believers in eternal torture to approve of something they would otherwise condemn. Actually, if I believed such a thing I'd be pretty scared to speak out myself. So it's understandable.

I would agree that we can not take every part of the Bible literally. We must read it in it's full context.

Theology is an interesting study. Using human reason to understand the omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient we will always come short in full understanding. There is suffering in this world now, but I do not believe God takes pleasure in that suffering. It is a result of sin from the beginning. Any thing that is short of the full glory of God will be suffering. I believe God is full of love in that he has provided a way to his full glory. We also have free will to choose that way. If there were no choice, we would not have free will. We would just be like programmed robots. God will pass judgment on me; I can not pass judgment on Him.

This is what I like about AMHD, a free exchange of ideas.

I am not passing judgment on God I am passing judgment on the eternal torture as
Punishment concept. Also, freedom of choice is not the issue here since I never denied that humans were given freedom to choose. As for not understanding God by using our God-given ability to reason, tell that to Thomas Aquinas who used reason in the service of faith. Also, lack of reasoning can lead us into accusing God of things he doesn't do since we are reading the Bible with our minds on hold, a perfect recipe for misunderstanding. This in turn can lead to people rolling on the floor making garbled sounds while claiming it to be holy spirit, people lashing themselves with whips in order to express repentance, to indiscriminately accepting any voice they imagine to hear as the voice of God and doing whatever it says even to the point of committing murder, the list is endless. All these have one thing in common, however, they malign God's character via misrepresentation just as Satan did in the Garden of Eden.



BTW
Actually, saying that God is incomprehensible is saying that he provided us with no means of getting to know him--another accusation against God's character that he doesn't deserve.

I actually agree with Aquinas. I should have worded that better. Insert: Totally and fully understand the mind of God.

Also, I do not believe God is incomprehensible. We can Know Him through what He has revealed to us through his creation and word, But we can not understand Him totally and fully until we are face to face (so to speak) in heaven.

Quote: people rolling on the floor making garbled sounds while claiming it to be holy spirit,

Starman

Sir, are you attempting to malign us Pentecostals?

If that is your intention I'm going to have to tell you that I resemble that! LOL

Blessings,

Chaplain John

Quote: people rolling on the floor making garbled sounds while claiming it to be holy spirit,

Starman

Sir, are you attempting to malign us Pentecostals?

If that is your intention I'm going to have to tell you that I resemble that! LOL

Blessings,

Chaplain John

No condemnation of you as an individual or your relationship with the creator was intended. That's for God who knows each person's heart to decide. So if I came across as judging Pentecostals individually in their relationship to God I apologize.


"Then hear thou from heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and render unto every man according unto all his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou only knowest the hearts of the children of men” (II Chronicles 6:30).

The Bible simply tells us that the penalty for sin is death. If it had been eternal torture Adam would have been told so that he could make an informed decision. Adam knew what God meant by death because God made it clear that it meant turning into inanimate matter again. Any other elaborations are the idea's of men and only serve to make God look evil by keeping creatures alive just so that they can suffer pointlessly since no one benefits from it except maybe a sadistic onlooker.

I totally agree that that God does not toture forever and ever in a mean and adistic way. In fact , God’s own inspired Word says the following regarding people who at one time sacrificed their children in burning flames to false gods: “And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.” (Jer. 7:31) Indeed, God says such a thing “had not come up into [his] heart.” Should he then be accused of tormenting people forever?

God’s Word shows that death (nonexistence), not eternal torment, is the penalty for sin. “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” (Ezek. 18:4) The Bible clearly says: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . For there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol [“the grave,” “Authorized Version”; “hell,” Catholic “Douay” version], the place to which you are going.” (Eccl. 9:5, 10) The Bible also encourages us to have “hope toward God . . . that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.”—Acts 24:15.

Since God does not change, we can find comfort in knowing that he never will do some of the terrible things that man has imagined in their minds. God does not torture us. He gives us life and he can take back that life. Before we are born, we are not existent and if we are judged wicked by God and not deserving of life, we become non existent again. (Malachi 3:6) What a pleasure it is to be led by such an understanding Shepherd, one who does not keep people alive to burn in a man made place of torture.

Take care,
Hope12:)

Here's a wealth of information on this subject:

Hell: Eternal Torment or Annihilation (http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/immortality_resurrection/6.htm)

I know the bible says that if a person is not saved and is burned up in the fires of hell that the smoke of his torment ariseth forever. Does that mean that he will actually suffer the pain and torment forever? Or once he is burned in the fires of hell he will no longer be conscious? Kinda confusing to me.

I know you asked about the Bible..
But as everyone seems to be joining in to explain their view,
Here's what Islam/muslims believe of Hell.

------------------------------------------------------------
Descriptions of Hell in Islam

The Creation of Hell-Fire
"Fear the fire, which is prepared for the disbelievers."
[Ali'-Imran, 3: 131]

"Truly Hell is lying in wait- a destination for the transgressors."
[an-Naba, 78: 21-22]
(One's rejection of faith is transgression against Allah and himself).

Abdullah bin Umar (radiAllahu anhu) narrated: “Allah Messenger (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said,
'When someone dies, he is shown his destination morning and evening and if he belongs to the people of Paradise, (he will be shown his place) among the people of Paradise, and if he is from the people of Hell, (he will be shown his place) among the people of Hell.'”
[Sahih al-Bukhari]

Abu Hurairah (radiAllahu anhu) reported that Allah's Messenger (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said:
“There was a dispute between Hell and Paradise during which Hell said, 'The haughty and the proud will find abode in me.' And Paradise said, 'The meek and the humble will find their abode in me.' Thereupon, Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, (addressing Hell) said, 'You are the means of My punishment by which I punish those of My servants whom I wish.' (and addressing Paradise), He said, 'You are My mercy by means of which I will show mercy to those whom I wish. And each one of you will be full.'”
[Muslim]

[B]The Gates of Hell
“The unbelievers will be led to Hell in crowds until, when they arrive there, its gates will be opened.. ” [az-Zumar, 39: 71]

“And verily, Hell is the promised abode for them all. It has seven gates: to each of those gates is a specific class of sinners assigned.”
[al Hijr, 15: 43-44]

“To them will be said, 'Enter you the gates of Hell to dwell therein. And how evil is this abode of the arrogant.'”
[az Zumar, 39: 72]

“But those who reject Our signs are the companions of the left hand – on them will be fire vaulted over.”
[al Balad, 90: 19-20]

In Arabic, the phrase “on them will be fire vaulted over” indicates that the gates of Hell be closed. In other words, the fire will encompass the companions of the Fire, and the gates of Hell will imprison them within. As well, the gates of Hell will be locked, vaulted all around, and outstretched columns will cover the doors.

“It is the fire of Allah, kindled to a blaze, which mounts right to the hearts. It will be a vault over them in outstretched columns.”
[al Humazah, 104: 6-9]

Abu Hurairah (radiAllahu anhu) narrated that Allah's Messenger (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said:
'When the month of Ramadan begins and the gates of Heaven are opened, the gates of Hell are closed, and the devils are chained.”
[Sahih al-Bukhari]

Levels of Hell
“To all are degrees or ranks according to their deeds.”
[an-An'am, 6: 132]

“Is the man who follows the good pleasure of Allah like the one who draws upon himself the wrath of Allah and whose abode is in Hell – an evil refuge? They are varying grades in the sight of Allah, and Allah sees well all that they do.”
[ali'-Imran, 3: 162-163]

“Indeed the hypocrites are in the lowest depths of the Fire; you will find no helper for them.”
[an Nisa, 4: 145]

Capacity and Depth of Hell
On the Day of Judgment the inhabitants of Hell will see their destined abode face to face and will realize the error of their ways. But, of course, it will be too late. The Qur'an states: “No! When the earth is pounded to powder, and your Lord comes with His angels, rank upon rank, and Hell, that Day, is brought [face to face] – on that Day will man remember? But how will that remembrance profit him?”
[al Fajr, 89: 21-23]

“On the Day We will say to Hellfire, 'have you been filled?' it will say, 'Are there some more?'”
[Qaf, 50: 30]

Ibn Mas'ud (radiAllahu anhu) reported that the Messenger of Allah (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said:
“Hell will be brought on that Day. IT will have seventy thousand reins with seventy thousand angels drawing it by each rein.”
[Muslim]

Abu Hurairah (radiAllahu anhu) reported that the Prophet (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said:
“And his (the disbeliever's) seat in Hellfire is as much as (the distance) between Makkah and Madinah.”
[at-Tirmidhi and al-Hakim]

Abu Hurairah (radiAllahu anhu) reported: “While we were in the company of Allah's Messenger (SAW), we heard a terrible sound. Thereupon, Allah's Messenger (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said, 'Do you know what that sound is?' When we answered, 'Allah and His Messenger know best.' He said. “That is a stone which was thrown into Hell seventy years ago and has been constantly falling until now when it finally reached the bottom.'”
[Muslim]

Abu Hurairah (radiAllahu anhu) reported that Allah's Messenger (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said:
“Hell and Paradise fell into a dispute during which Hell said, 'I have been distinguished by the proud and the haughty.' And Paradise said, 'What is the matter with me that only the meek and the humble and the downtrodden and the simple enter me?'
Thereupon, Allah said to Paradise, 'You are the means of My mercy whereby I show mercy to those of My servants whom I wish.' Then HE said to Hell, 'You are the means of punishment whereby I punish those of My servants whom I wish. Both of you will be full.' Hell will not be filled up until Allah puts His foot over it. Then Hell will say, 'Enough, enough, enough,' at which point it will be filled up, all of its parts integrated together.”
[Muslim]

Anas bin Malik (radiAllahu anhu) reported that Allah's Messenger (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said:
“Hell will continue to ask, 'Is there anything more?' until Allah, the Exalted, and High will place His foot thereon, Then it will say, 'Enough, enough, by Your honor,' and some of its parts will draw close together.'”
[Muslim]

The Fuel of Hell-Fire
People:
“Those who has disbelieved – their wealth and their children will never benefit them anything with Allah. And those are the ones who are the fuel of Hellfire.”
[ali'-Imran, 3: 10]
Jinn:
“And there are among us Muslims (in submission to Allah) and others who deviate from justice. And whoever accepts Islam has sought out the right path. As for those who deviate, they will be firewood for the Hellfire.”
[al-Jinn, 72: 14-15]
Stones:
“But if you cannot – and of a surety you cannot – then fear the fire whose fuel is men and stones, which is prepared for those who reject faith.”
[al Baqarah, 2: 24]

“O you who believe, save yourselves and your families from a fire whose fuel is men and stones, over which are appointed angels, stern and severe, who do not disobey Allah in what He orders them and who do precisely what they are commanded.”
[al-Tahreem, 66: 6]
False Gods
“Verily, you (unbelievers) and what you worship besides Allah are fuel for Hellfire, You will surely come to it. If those had (truly) been gods, they would not have come to it. But all will abide therein eternally.”
[al-Anbiya, 21: 98-99]

“And the Fierce Fire will be brought out before those straying in evil, and it will be said to them, 'Where are those you worshipped besides Allah? Can they help you or help themselves?' Then they will be thrown into it (the Hellfire) on their faces – they and those straying in evil and the soldiers of Iblees, all together.”
[ash Shu'ara, 26: 91-95]

The Intensity of its Fire
Abu Hurairah (radiAllahu anhu) narrated: “When Allah's Messenger (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said,
'Your ordinary fire is one of the 70 potions of the Hellfire,' someone commented, 'O Messenger of Allah, would it (ordinary fire) not be sufficient (to burn the wrongdoers)?' At that, Allah's Messenger (SAW) said, 'The Hellfire has 69 more portions than ordinary (worldly) fire, and all of them are as hot as this (worldly fire).'”
[Sahih al-Bukhari]

“Verily, Allah has cursed the disbelievers and prepared for them a Blazing Fire. Dwelling therein forever, and they will find no protector or helper.”
[al-Ahzab, 33: 64-65]


To read the rest of the article please click the following
http://www.shariahprogram.ca/articles/hell-devil-description.shtml

:) :)

Your definition of hell would depend on the beliefs of the religion to which you subscribe, if any. It is my belief that hell is not some fiery <a href="http://www.supernovamfg.com">incinerator</a> in which you are placed for eternity. Rather, it is a place of personal anguish. This suffering is derived from your poor choices here on earth. You will be separated from God and your family, never being allowed to have familial relationships ever again. And you will always know that you could have chosen differently, but did not. You could have achieved what your loved ones had, but instead, through your actions in this life, chose to become separated from them in the next.

I totally agree with Hope12's post of 01Jun2007. And I would like to add a word about correctly interpreting the parable of "The Rich Man And Lazarus" found in the New Testament. Christ spoke in parables, and without a parable He did not speak. Sometimes the difficulty lies in determining which statements of God are plain, and which statements are symbolic. The parable I've mentioned states that the rich man "died and was buried." And "in hell he lifted up his eyes..." That last phrase about lifting his eyes should immediately give us a BIG clue that what follows is parabolic. Because it is physically not possible to be dead and to "lift up ones eyes" to see. In any case let's continue to ask for wisdom when trying to understand Holy Scriptures. And let's especially apply the rule of "comparing spiritual (things) with spiritual." (1 Corinthians 2:13)

Headstrong,

I disagree with you... Christ spoke in parables but he didn't ALWAYS speak in parables.

Also, he spoke about hell more than he did about heaven. And your issue with lifting his eyes is not valid. This guy could see! Did he have his body.. no he didn't but he could communicate and see and feel. If you think it was just some parable... then lets refer to the OT. You seem to like the OT really good. When the witch of Endor brought Samuel back from the dead... samuel spoke.. now how could he have without a mouth? Samuel was none to pleased because he was diquieted... now how could this be? Comparing SCRIPTURE with SCRIPTURE... the bible says there is a hell, a lake of fire and heaven. They are as real as this earth. It isn't some spirtual hocus pocus.

Quoting classy T:
....Christ spoke in parables but he didn't ALWAYS speak in parables.

I agree that Christ didn't ALWAYS speak in parables. But my point is that every word of the Old Testament is also the words of Christ. Remember Christ is God. And Moses leading the Children of Israel out of Egypt and into Canaan, the promised land, is a historical parable. Egypt representing the kingdom of Satan, Moses representing Christ, the people of Israel representing those who will become saved, and Canaan representing the kingdom of Heaven. And throughout the whole Bible God uses other incidents as parables to HIDE spiritual meaning. Often the problem is recognizing those passages that contain hidden spiritual meaning.

The spirit entity that the witch of Endor saw and spoke with could NOT have been Samuel. The souls of the saved are secure in heaven with Christ until the Day of the Rapture. They are NOT free to be summoned back to Earth whenever some psychic feels the urge. Remember that the witch was a servant of Satan, and the spirits she was able to conjure up were fallen angels who also serve only their master. Their master is the Father of Lies and his servants work at DECEIVING everyone who listens to them. And God permitted all this deception to be recorded in the Bible for His own purposes.

The subjects of Hell and The Lake of Fire are very important. And they are not as simple and "cut and dried" as we may prefer. Since we have translations into English, the original word is often not immediately available to us. To correctly "divide the word of truth" we must CAREFULLY look at the original language AND the context. Not an easy job. But it is do-able if we humbly follow the rules that God lays out in the Bible. If you would like to discuss this further, I am ready for you. Anytime.

Quoting classy T:
....Christ spoke in parables but he didn't ALWAYS speak in parables.

I agree that Christ didn't ALWAYS speak in parables. But my point is that every word of the Old Testament is also the words of Christ. Remember Christ is God. And Moses leading the Children of Israel out of Egypt and into Canaan, the promised land, is a historical parable. Egypt representing the kingdom of Satan, Moses representing Christ, the people of Israel representing those who will become saved, and Canaan representing the kingdom of Heaven. And throughout the whole Bible God uses other incidents as parables to HIDE spiritual meaning. Often the problem is recognizing those passages that contain hidden spiritual meaning.

I don't know who told you this, but they're full of something other than the Holy spirit. The Bible tells us that certain things in the Old Testament are types of New Testament things, but this declaration is just silly.


The spirit entity that the witch of Endor saw and spoke with could NOT have been Samuel. The souls of the saved are secure in heaven with Christ until the Day of the Rapture. They are NOT free to be summoned back to Earth whenever some psychic feels the urge. Remember that the witch was a servant of Satan, and the spirits she was able to conjure up were fallen angels who also serve only their master. Their master is the Father of Lies and his servants work at DECEIVING everyone who listens to them. And God permitted all this deception to be recorded in the Bible for His own purposes.

Then the Bible itself is the one that was deceiving, because it clearly says that it WAS Samuel, and that he gave an accurate prediction of how Saul was to die. The witch was terrified out of her gourd, not because she saw a spirit; she was used to that, and expected her "familiar spirit" to show up posing as Samuel. What scared her to death was when Samuel himself actually appeared. I don't know where you get this stuff, but it's contrary to the plain words of Scripture, so guess which one I'm going to believe.

Quoting dwashbur:
so guess which one I'm going to believe.

Your game of bait and switch is really annoying. And I don't care what you believe. You are the one who is a silly and pompous a**.

Quoting dwashbur:
so guess which one I'm going to believe.

Your game of bait and switch is really annoying. And I don't care what you believe. You are the one who is a silly and pompous a**.

Bait and switch :confused: But once again it becomes clear that the ones with the weakest arguments are the ones who usually descend into name-calling. Thanks for clearing that up.

Quoting dwashbur:
"...but this declaration is just SILLY."

Here's an example of "name calling" from your previous post. Or does it not count as name calling because yourself is above such things ?

"...they're full of something other than the Holy spirit." What would you call that comment of yours ? What are they supposedly full of ? I'd call that a BORDERLINE rude remark. Of course you may think of yourself as extremely clever. But I'm also clever enough to recognize a veiled insult.

It seems you're very willing to dish it out, but not so willing to accept the same kind of treatment.

[And I don't care what you believe. You are the one who is a silly and pompous a**.A true christian at work. :)

Quoting NeedKarma:
"A true christian at work"

I suppose you think that is helpful ? Truly unbiased ?

It's crystal clear to me where your loyalty is.

I suppose the SUBSTANCE of the original question has no real place here at all. It's just a free-for-all "bash the newbie" for being vulnerable and making the mistake returning insult for insult.

It's crystal clear to me where your loyalty is.
Yes, with my kids. I couldn't care less if this website exploded tomorrow. But I know one thing, I don't call people what you call people and call myself a christian.

Quoting NeedKarma:
"...call myself a christian."

Did I call myself a Christian ? I don't seem to recall. The topic of this particular category is Christianity. That much is true.

I am interested in having meaningful dicussion about the Bible. If that means I have to "kick some butt" to get it, I will. Clearly the senior members here, of which I am NOT one, don't mind at all dishing out the occasional gratuitous rude remark.

Quoting dwashbur:
"...but this declaration is just SILLY."

Here's an example of "name calling" from your previous post. Or does it not count as name calling because yourself is above such things ?

"...they're full of something other than the Holy spirit." What would you call that comment of yours ? What are they supposedly full of ? I'd call that a BORDERLINE rude remark. Of course you may think of yourself as extremely clever. But I'm also clever enough to recognize a veiled insult.

It seems you're very willing to dish it out, but not so willing to accept the same kind of treatment.

Nice dodging. Once again, rather than address the issues, you sidestep into personal stuff. I addressed statements and viewpoints, but obviously that distinction is beyond your level of scholarship. So you dance away again. Surprise, surprise.

I am interested in having meaningful dicussion about the Bible. If that means I have to "kick some butt" to get it, I will.In my world one does not have to "kick butt" to have a meaningful discussion, they occur naturally when people treat each other with respect. In fact the kicking of the butt seems to be counter-intuitive to a discussion.

Quoting dwashbur:
"...sidestep into personal stuff..."

Perhaps you're right. But for me it is personal. I find it extremely difficult to separate your abrasive style from the objective part of your responses. So difficult that I totally fail to see any real coherence and rationality in your addressing the issues. You seem to excel at being critical without offering the slightest positive feedback whatsoever. What about some Bible verses to support your critical and incisive point of view ?

Quoting HeadStrongBoy:
"But my point is that every word of the Old Testament is also the words of Christ."

You claim to have responded to that issue and others ? Here is your response, and I quote: I don't know who told you this, but they're full of something other than the Holy spirit. I don't call that an objective response. It's a VEILED INSULT. What Bible reference did you give to support your rude remark ?

Quoting HeadStrongBoy:
"But my point is that every word of the Old Testament is also the words of Christ."

You claim to have responded to that issue and others ? Here is your response, and I quote: I don't know who told you this, but they're full of something other than the Holy spirit. I don't call that an objective response. It's a VEILED INSULT. What Bible reference did you give to support your rude remark ?

That was not the issue I responded to and you know it. You keep doing this, and I'm not going to play your childish game any more. As for your last question, I'll answer it when you answer the same question about this:

"You are the one who is a silly and pompous a**."

I'm done with you, kid. Come back when you grow up a little.

Quoting dwashbur:
"Nice dodging. Once again, rather than address the issues, you sidestep into personal stuff."

I don't deny what you've referred to above. What would be the point ?

But I must add my own observation to yours. I'm not the only one. THERE'S QUITE A LOT OF FANCY FOOTWORK GOING ON with this thread, and with almost every other thread that I've had any interest in ON THIS SITE.

Posters jumping in and out at their PERSONAL discretion. That's a polite way of saying that when it gets a tad too uncomfortable, or beyond their usual powers of reason, they conveniently "slip away." Of course it's perfectly understandable. But please, don't try to make it sound like I'm avoiding serious issues. I'm still here. And I'm not afraid of that ugly word DISAGREEMENT.

Headstrong,

Let me assure you that you really are not all that intimidating. The problem is because you do seem to have a chip on your shoulder ( just my observation). I always pop in when I see your name on a post just to see what trouble you are causing and you never disappoint me. :) Perhaps that is why other posters jump in at their "personal descretion". Just a thought. :)

NK- I don't think that Headstrong calls himself a Christian ( not sure what he is) BUT.. as a Christian woman, I don't always act perfect. It is shocking, I know. Christians are sinners saved by grace.. they aren't perfect don't claim to be and yes, sometimes get their feathers ruffled. So don't take the high road... I've read some of your posts over the years. Just saying

Dave,

Thanks for backing my comments about Samuel up! You are exactly right. :)

Quoting classyT:
Thanks for backing my comments about Samuel up! You are exactly right.

The amount of back-slapping and self-congratulation that goes on here is totally counter to the spirit of earnest critical evaluation of other points of view. Does anyone in this category EVER consider that they may have to ACTUALLY RETHINK their most cherished and long held doctrines ? Not because any particular person says so, but because the Bible supports such a point of view.

Quoting classyT:
Thanks for backing my comments about Samuel up! You are exactly right.

The amount of back-slapping and self-congratulation that goes on here is totally counter to the spirit of earnest critical evaluation of other points of view. Does anyone in this category EVER consider that they may have to ACTUALLY RETHINK their most cherished and long held doctrines ? Not because any particular person says so, but because the Bible supports such a point of view.

Fine, let's get into it. You said this:


The spirit entity that the witch of Endor saw and spoke with could NOT have been Samuel. The souls of the saved are secure in heaven with Christ until the Day of the Rapture. They are NOT free to be summoned back to Earth whenever some psychic feels the urge.

There is not a single actual biblical quote here, about the En-Dor incident, about where the "souls of the saved" are or anything else, just blanket statements.

1 Samuel 28:12 says:

"When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice." Note that the text says she saw Samuel. Not a fake spirit, not her familiar, she saw Samuel.

Verse 14 says "Saul knew it was Samuel." Not a fake spirit, not her familiar, not a demon, but Samuel.

Verse 15 says "Samuel said to Saul, 'Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?'"

Not a fake spirit, not her familiar, not a demon, but Samuel. God's Word, which you yourself say was dictated word for word, says explicitly that the personage speaking to Saul her was Samuel. Not a fake spirit, not the witch's familiar, not a demon, but Samuel.

In the next section, Samuel berates Saul for coming to him and then predicts when and how Saul will die. The predictions happened exactly as Samuel said. Once again, God's Word says it was Samuel himself who made these predictions, not something fake.

So, those are the plain words of Scripture. Obviously this even happened because God allowed it, not because the medium had any actual power over Samuel. But that doesn't change the fact that it WAS Samuel that she and Saul spoke to.

Okay, based on the clear teaching of the God-inspired Bible, are you prepared to change your view on this matter?

Quoting dwashbur:
"Fine, let's get into it."

I have read part of your posting, and I'm anxious to give you a thorough reply. But right now you're going to have to wait. There's something else I have to take care of. But I'll be back.

Quoting dwashbur:
"Okay, based on the clear teaching of the God-inspired Bible, are you prepared to change your view on this matter?"

NO!! I am not going to change my view simply because YOU say it's "clear."

King James translates the Hebrew in verse 14 as Saul "PERCEIVED." That's how I accept it, for the time being.

At this point I'd like to repeat that Hope12 has given the most correct Biblical answer to the asker's original question. Though I believe that his reference to Acts 24:15 is in need of further clarification.


At this point I'm going to sign off. To be continued...

At this point I'd like to repeat that Hope12 has given the most correct Biblical answer to the asker's original question. Though I believe that his reference to Acts 24:15 is in need of further clarification.


At this point I'm going to sign off. To be continued....

We are on the edge of our seats... :rolleyes:

The word “hell” is found in many Bible translations. In the same verses other translations read “the grave,” “the world of the dead,” and so forth. Other Bibles simply transliterate the original-language words that are sometimes rendered “hell”; that is, they express them with the letters of our alphabet but leave the words untranslated. What are those words? The Hebrew she’ohl′ and its Greek equivalent hai′des, which refer, not to an individual burial place, but to the common grave of dead mankind; also the Greek ge′en‧na, which is used as a symbol of eternal destruction. However, both in Christendom and in many non-Christian religions it is taught that hell is a place inhabited by demons and where the wicked, after death, are punished (and some believe that this is with torment).
What happens to us when we die? The condition of the dead is made clear at Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10, where we read: “The dead know nothing . . . In the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.” (New International Version) Scripturally, death is a state of nonexistence. The dead have no awareness, no feelings, no thoughts
Since the dead have no conscious existence, hell cannot be a fiery place of torment where the wicked suffer after death. What, then, is hell?
Consider also the case of the righteous man Job, who suffered much. Wishing to escape his plight, he pleaded: “Who will grant me this, that thou mayest protect me in hell [Sheol], and hide me till thy wrath pass?” (Job 14:13, Douay Version) How unreasonable to think that Job desired to go to a fiery-hot place for protection! To Job, “hell” was simply the grave, where his suffering would end. The Bible hell, then, is the common grave of mankind where good people as well as bad ones go.

In our time the gospel is really simple. May 21, 2011 will be the Day of Judgment. It is God's word. Believe the warning, and humble yourself under His mighty hand. It MAY BE that God will bestow His grace on us.

Headstrong,

What exactly am I suppose to do? Repent from accepting the Lord Jesus as my savior? Repent for believing that I have been saved by his blood. Repent for believing by Grace through faith in HIM is the way to salvation. Repent for getting baptized after I accepted the free gift. Repent from renewing my mind daily. For having a relationship with Jesus. Repent from experiencing his goodness to be daily. SO THAT I CAN... believe a warning to a day of judgement that we are instructed that NO MAN knows the day or hour. Worry like crazy that the finished work of Jesus is NOT enough. Hope and pray that I was handpicked by God to be saved in the end.

You are goofy and your little gospel of doomsday is goofy and FALSE and completely unbiblical. In the end... I believe GOD.

rr man asked: I know the bible says that if a person is not saved and is burned up in the fires of hell that the smoke of his torment ariseth forever.

The quote is from Revelation 14:11. "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever." The word "for" is translated from the Greek word G1519 in Strong's Lexicon. That same Greek word is translated as "to" in Matthew 7:13 "to destruction." Matthew 8:28 "to the other side." Matthew 8:34 "to meet Jesus."

We know from other parts of the Bible that the unsaved dead have no conscious existence anymore at all. See Ecclesiastes 9:5 and Isaiah 26:14. Therefore, since God does not speak out of both sides of His mouth, we know that the rising smoke of their torment CANNOT be FOR ever.

From other parts of the Bible we can learn that eternity (ever) begins Oct. 21, 2011. So we can change the translated preposition "for" to "to." Because we are using it as the original Greek language will allow. (See the references to Matthew above.) And doing so will make the verse in Revelation read "to ever and ever." This rendering makes it harmonious with Ecclesiastes and with Isaiah.

In conclusion the smoke rises only until the Day of Judgment is completed, and eternity in the new heavens and the new earth has begun. In other words until or "to ever and ever." And we have NOT broken any rules of changing the original language of the Bible. Either adding to or subtracting from it. We have only changed the translation looking at how the very same word is used in other parts of the Bible. And thus we have arrived at a much more harmonious understanding of what God originally intended to say.