Building new home in Dallas. Am looking for advice on how much to invest in AC unit, STD with builder is Carrier SEER 14. I know energy cost will be going up is it worth the money for the higher Seer rating. ALready doing simple things on more insulation and radiant barriers etc.

Living in Dallas I would recommend going with the high SEER unit. Your unit will be running a lot and it will be a good investment. People who live in northern states where they don't run the units much sometimes won't see any big advantages. You need to compare installation prices and electric rates to see if it pays off.

I live along the approx same latitude as Dallas and it gets very hot, humind here near NW Florida and it also gets fairly cold down as low as the teens on some winter nights and days and I chose a 12 seer "heat pump" unit over a 10 or 14 not for any particular reason. I just looked at the cost of each, the anticipated savings in energy and decided somewhere in the middle. Looks like I made a good choice about 7 yrs ago, as most anything made by man will everntually need replacing and my unit has had it's share of mechical issues so keep in mind the life expectany of your investment in the HVAC unit. I think it's about 10 or 12 years either before it needs replacing on average. Perhaps there is a HVAC expert who wants to correct me if I am wrong on the life expectancy.

Go with the higher SEER it will pay off with the new home. GOOGLE " Doug Rye show". He will tell and show you how and why to do it, and its free info.

Read this set of posts, there is some good information in it.
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/heating-air-conditioning/bryant-evolution-quote-16-seer-86291.html

Here in NW FL...
We sell American Standard... I know people will be commenting "to pricey!". I actually just re-did my home A/C also with what we sell. Honestly, I am extremely pleased by my new system. I have an 18 SEER dual compressor, variable speed. We did pay more for the better system, but with utility prices on a rise, it will pay off SOON!
The way the dual compressor works, is the smaller compressor runs most of the time unless the demand for cool is very high (people coming and going all the time, group gatherings... )then the bigger compressor turns on. **less power usuage
The variable speed is good too. It takes a lot of power just to start a unit, but with variable speed, the blower starts slow and ramps up (makes airflow quieter and doesn't have power on with such high start power *which saves with power used just to start). Also, w/variable speed the blower doesn't always have to run at one speed, if it doesn't need to run at highspeed it won't... it will run at a lower speed (using less power). We added the American Std. Accuclean airfilter to our air handler. That's a great addition too! The thing is, in order for it to filter to is greatest extent you need to run your blower constantly (to clean the air constantly! ) with variable spd. You can run you blower all day long and it cost about 5cents a day to contantly clean the air.

Think about this too... turning a light bulb on and off constantly is what makes it burn out faster, it's the same concept with electrical motors. (its the constant on and off that wears them out faster... not them running

Keep in mind, the initial investment may be high for good efficiency equipment, but the cost of living will be lower!!

Talk to different consultants and see what will fit YOUR needs! After you've done your research take a look at HVAC OpCost (http://www.hvacopcost.com) and just plug in your equipment info and it will help put some of the investment cost into a longer view of cost difference! GREAT WEBSITE for ballpark ranges! (Granted it won't be exact... but it does a good job of breaking it down)

Dual compressor= double trouble= you do not really want to here how much this costs when it need to be replaced!! Can you say go to the bank and make a loan?

Variable speed motor= 650.00
Variable speed motor end bell electronics=400.00

Finding someone who has the tools to set the dip switches and make the proper settings when installed is almost impossible. If you are using your existing duct work it is a total waste of money to buy all of the above.

Service companies that send there men to attend my recertification classes have a fun time talking about the high efficiency equiptment during break. It has opened up a new road into your wallet and they love it.

Under ideal conditions with new duct sized correctly and a extremely knowledgeable person doing all the work there are some benefits but buying new duct and finding that person is very difficult to do.

Best for you to buy equiptment with the standard 3 speed blower,one compressor, TXV installed with hard start kit, Honeywell digital thermostat for control ( note: there are many different types so you will have to pick out exactly how much control (fancy) you want your stat), quality filtration system (note: I did not say electronic), new copper line set (why keep the old varnished up one. New unit new lines), Proper size return air and tighten up your duct system with mastic made for that purpose,(stops air leaks),

Get the longest FACTORY warranty you can get. I said factory not a warranty that the dealer sells on the side.

Get a minimum of 2 or 3 estimates of EXACTLY what you want done including all the above in writing. Make sure your homeowner insurance covers damage caused by lightning and power surges if not have your utility install a main surge /brown out protection on your meter base.

The up front cost and the eventual repair of higher efficiency equiptment plus the inability to really get the equiptment to perfom as stated by the manufacturer is the reason I would shy away from the super delux stuff being offered.

I have enclosed a small wiring diagram. If your HVAC guy is smart he will know how to do this for you. You can also install a humidstat in this circuit to run the standard 3 speed motor at a slower speed for A/C use. This will strip the moisture out of the air faster than any two speed unit out there. The humidstat senses the high consentration of water in the air and will lower the blower speed to allow more air hang time at the coil allowing for much better humidity control in areas that need it.

Good luck with your decission.

One more cool diagram to control humidity with 2 stage cool thermostat.

Hvac1000 is 100% correct, I just replaced a variable speed on a pulse furnace and the S.O.B cost the customer 750.00 just for the parts , it is a BIG waste of money, you will never recover the cost of the system before you need to start making repairs. Mid seer single stage is the way to go.

I don't know how things are down in Florida but, up here in SC it's had to find a technician who can properly service the basic, simple systems. Finding a GOOD QUALIFIDE service tech who can make repairs without using the "I'll Try This Method" is next to impossible. If you have any extras, send them my way and I'll hire them in the morning...

JackT, it's hard to find good technicians anywhere, the shop I work at has about 35 employees and 4 of us are service techs, its crazy we have went through 4 wannabes in the past year, people just don't want anything to do with the service trade these days, and installers are a dime a dozen.

Interesting... I think its good to hear stuff like that, you get this stuff installed and don't really hear about problems IF DONE CORRECT until a few years down the road. I haven't been in the industry long enough to hear or find problems in some of the systems we install. Granted, we don't only sell American Std (it is customers preference and we get it installed correctly). I don't know what everyone else sells/installs/services from the forum. But I haven't touched a American Std. or Trane system to repair anything.
I do agree with mostly everyone has posted since my last post, GOOD techs/installers, many estimates, proper duct system, etc. It ALL is important to get the max effi. Stated.

I'm not trying to pick anything or whatever... but HVAC1000, you wrote "quality filtration system (note: I did not say electronic)", what types of filtration do you consider quality?. I just want to know what others thoughts are, I've heard it all about Amer. Std, but haven't been able to get detailed info on other manufactur's best.

Honestly I hope, even though I know others don't, but HOPEFULLY everyone out there (installers) isn't willing to cut corners just to get the job done. I know that in my area of FL the inspectors and codes are very strict (which, even though it makes the job "tough" at times, I think its great. It helps keep dishonest people honest) The one thing that I know we are guilty of is installing new duct work. But everything else we do is done properly... sealing returns and closet, return size, sealing ducts and plenum, new lines, new platforms, new PVC drain. Other than the re-size/new duct I feel that my company does a good job on installs. HOPEFULLY everyone out there can feel the same about their company at some point in the future! 50% of our techs are NATE certified.

JackT... you got to admit that sometimes you have to use the "i'll give this a try method" (to an extent). Maybe I'm thinking of "trial and error" or "narrowing down"... I don't know..

But hey, Its great to get responses along the line of what has been posted since my last. I hope customers see this and learn so they don't get taken advantage of and "screwed", and people who do take advantage lose the jobs and ability to work until they make changes! I know I hate taking my car in and them replacing the fuel pump when the fuel pump wasn't even in question!!
No hate or anger directed to ANYONE through ANY of my post!

I semi-retired after 30 years in the business, moved south and then lost my mind, became board sitting home, and excepted a job as Director of facilities for a large school district. (thirty schools, 20,000+ students) Finding any kind of good help in any of the trades can be a challenge. And yes we all have used the process of elimination at one time or another but, to some "technicians" that's the only way they can fix the problem.

Check out the bryant Evolution system. Variable speed blower, 2 speed compressor (Scroll compressor that loads and unloads as needed its been around awhile). High SEER and yes it will pay for its self. As far as the techs. That work on it. Carrier/Bryant makes the dealers certify their techs(NATE and Carrier/Bryant certified). To work on that equipment. No matter what you buy make sure you get 10 years parts and labor warranty. It pays off with only one service call.

Check out the bryant Evolution system. Variable speed blower, 2 speed compressor (Scroll compressor that loads and unloads as needed its been around awhile). High SEER and yes it will pay for its self. As far as the techs. that work on it. Carrier/Bryant makes the dealers certify their techs(NATE and Carrier/Bryant certified). to work on that equipment. No matter what you buy make sure you get 10 years parts and labor warranty. It pays off with only one service call.

Other dealers, Manufacturers, would disagree. I've always been honest, that I sell and prefer Rheem/Ruud equipment, but that is just my opinion. I've heard some real horror stories about the evolution series. Would anyone who has been around awhile, really put a 410A system in their own home? Probably not. Yes, I realize that is the direction legislation is forcing us to go, but R-12 is simply a better refrigerant, do you want me to tell you all the ways? About any piece of equipment, 13-14 seer, properly installed, will probably pay off over the life of the equipment, minus repair costs and efficiency. I agree with HVAC1000 in almost everyway.

(( I'm not trying to pick anything or whatever... but HVAC1000, you wrote "quality filtration system (note: I did not say electronic)", what types of filtration do you consider quality?. ))

Polyester with the white side out (air entering) and the blue side in is probably one of the most efficient air filters in the lower price range. I also use a spray filter coat on the polyester type. I use this in my own home. There are also filters made by April Air,Honeywell and others that I call a block filter. They have many pleats and are about the same size as a electronic one.

The standard fiberglass filter can splinter and send chards into the system then into your lungs. They also do not filter anything smaller than a dust bunny.

Electronic air cleaners. Problems with ozone can have health effects on some people. How many contractors carry around a High Voltage probe to check the voltage on the cell box? How many know what the voltage should be and how to reduce that voltage by getting a block resistor from Radio Shack or in the case of April Air cutting the wire inside to lower the voltage power.
Electronic air cleaners are a pain in the A$$ to clean and dry. They need repair more often to keep in top condition and the parts are not cheap.

Years ago for the super rich ( the people who owned the factories and business) we took care of we used to install medical bag filtration. Wow was that stuff good but it was super big bucks and they would need to be serviced every month or they would really stop the air flow due to there filtering capability but when you have a child with allergies nothing is to expensive for there health.

Other dealers, Manufacturers, would disagree. I've always been honest, that I sell and prefer Rheem/Ruud equipment, but that is just my opinion. I've heard some real horror stories about the evolution series. Would anyone who has been around awhile, really put a 410A system in their own home? Probably not. Yes, I realize that is the direction legislation is forcing us to go, but R-12 is simply a better refrigerant, do you want me to tell you all the ways? About any piece of equipment, 13-14 seer, properly installed, will probably pay off over the life of the equipment, minus repair costs and efficiency. I agree with HVAC1000 in almost everyway.
I guess I need to ask. Why is R22 a better choice than 410A. I've heard the horror stories of the evolution also but its from the techs that try to know but do not know what they are working on.

I guess I need to ask. Why is R22 a better choice than 410A. I've heard the horror stories of the evolution also but its from the techs that try to know but do not know what they are working on.

Here are both sides of the R-22 vs R-410A controversy.
Size and efficiency.

410A is 5-6% more efficient.
1 cuft of 410A @ 50 degrees weighs 2.5# and delivers 124 BTU's per pound.
1 cuft R-22 @ 50 degrees weighs 1.8# and delivers 108 BTU's.
In short the physical dimensions of the new higher efficiency equipment will be smaller than the R-22 systems.

Pressure and leaks.

R-410A runs at roughly 60% higher pressures.
Higher pressure systems will mean higher leak rates.
Simple truth. ALL systems leak, maybe only 1 oz per decade or 1# per year.

Oil

R-410A uses Poyvinyl ether oil (PVE)
R-22 uses mineral oils
PVE oil is very hydroscopic (Absorbs moisture) Mineral oil is not.

Additional comments

Discrepancies among manufacturers on how much this refrigerant will fractionate in a leak have been all over the board. Some say it is not significant and others say it is.
These new super high efficiencies have been measured using one specific piece of equipment and will probably not have the efficiency in a real world application.
There is no real evidence PVE oil and R-410A is any safer to the environment.
Either piece of equipment properly evacuated and charged, and as leak free as possible
will run for years with few problems. My money is on the R-22 systems lasting longer tho.
Condensers get damaged, if not a nail thrown from a mower deck, a lineset caught up in a roto tiller or an arrow from the dear child next door.
The R-410 system will cost much more to repair I will bet.
Life expectancy of an air conditioner is less than 15 years, R-22 will still be available, the refrigerant might cost more than 410A but either system should have the leak repaired, and I bet the cost of repair will be very much the same on average.
Not all installers are perfect, R-22 is a more forgiving refrigerant, as far as the critical charge and the level of evacuation, again, I would worry less having R-22.
A good installer makes less money than a good service tech almost everywhere.
R-22 equipment costs less money to install increasing the time of efficiency pay-off.

I'm not saying 410A is all bad, but before the last piece of R-22 equipment is sold I would put it in my own home, but that's just my opinion, and many other old timers who have gone through this whole Montreal protocol since the beginning.

I'm with you, I'll still put a R-22 unit in my own house before I would a 410A. I still bet there will be several good drop in EPA approved replacements in the near future.

Good Info NorthernHeat.

1- Physical dimensions of the 410 is larger than the 22 systems. That how the get even more efficiency for the system. (bang for your buck)
2- sure it runs higher pressures but that's why we use nitrogen to get a good pressure test. 410 or 22. The new equipment is made for higher pressures. As far as the line set a weld is a weld, if you have a bad weld and it leaks 410 the same weld will leak 22.
3- The oil for the 410 is subject to moister and so is the 22 system. If you do not run a acid/moister test and replace the drier on all systems that are open to the element your not doing the home owner any good.
4-As far as a hole in the coil for any reason why would it cost more to repair the 410? It's the same supplies used to make the repairs with the 22 system. The only diff is the refrigerant.
5- If the Techs. Will take the time to get to know the 410 system and get the training on it they will like it.

The year is 2010, are your (havc1000) posts #7 and #8 still up to date? I guess what I'm saying has the training caught up with some of the technology or is this the same setup you would recommend. I live in the Dallas area.

Thanks

Sorry to say but things are not better but actually worse in the real world. Since high unemployment has hit the USA we now have another 200,000 people who call themselves service technicians that have no idea what they are doing. They are all running around trying to make $$$$ but not really fixing anything properly. I do not like to paint a picture of gloom and doom but the facts speak for themselves. A real installer or service person is very hard to come by. Anyone can slap in equipment or replace every part in a unit until it works but that is not quality and the customer suffers from higher cost for everything from service to higher utility bills.

Now do not get me wrong. We have a highly talented group of service people in the field right now but there are just not enough of them. The few good training schools cannot produce enough new techs' to replace the older qualified techs to start with let alone having enough for the increased demand. This has been discussed on many levels in the industry and there is no consensus on how to cure this problem since it takes years to develop quality HVAC personnel.

Protect yourself at all costs. Read the guide below for company selection and get at least 3 estimates. It never hurts to also ask for recommendations from good friends or coworkers since they might have had a bad or good experience with a company to tell you about. Arming yourself with information is always a good move but unless you want to go to school and work in this industry tread lightly with the info you find on the net since all persons out there do not give the strait story or know exactly what they are talking about.

I have never met a person who knows all about the HVAC biz and that includes me.