People throughout the centuries have talked about and looked forward to an Afterlife -- Happy Hunting Grounds, Nirvana, Heaven, Valhalla, Paradise. etc. The older I get and the closer I get to death, the more interested I become in an Afterlife and wonder what it really will be like.

That's a surprising comment coming from a person who considers herself to be a Christian. What brought this on?

That's a surprising comment coming from a person who considers herself to be a Christian. What brought this on?
I'm trying to liven up this site!!!!!

You do understand that it has nothing to do with (afterlife) going to live in heaven.
It has everything to do with God coming to live in/with you. God in You (here on earth). Not - as in; "we go to live in heaven coming into the afterlife." There is only life. There is no "afterlife."

Life = Jesus. It's that same life, as he lived and died and rose again...one and the same life. God has given us a messiah. He has given us his life. Jesus is a man - Jesus (as a simple man) needed the holy spirit before he could start his ministry...as a man, we need that same Spirit in order to live that same "life" that Jesus already lived.

Too many Christians believe they have to couple Science with Scripture...unbeknownst to them; believing that Science holds the keys to life. Believing there is a scientific method, scientific reason, and scientific explanation. Scientific Formula in Creating Life... there well maybe? Building, creating, or growing a human Body is Not life!
I'm trying to liven up this site!!!!! That seems to be the story of your "life." Liven up your life...with what?

Therefore, waltero, after we have been resurrected, we will still be here on this Earth? And then we will live here on Earth, living a sinless life, showing Christ's love all the time to everyone?


Liven up your life...with what?
Liven up this site (not my life, which is actually very lively) and keep it from being shut down.

It appears Walter is angry again. We never really know why.

There is only life. There is no "afterlife".
Well, yeah there IS an afterlife. Most of us who have lived on this Earth have died or will die. Afterlife is the life we live once we've been resurrected.

And I don't believe those who have died are senseless. I've heard from our deceased son a number of times, so much so that I am keeping a journal about it. And Athos has given me several surprising and very obvious nudges, the most recent one being this afternoon.

Gotta go with WG on this one. The afterlife would be the life AFTER this life, so plainly it does exist. I'm not real sure what Walter's objection is.

I'm wondering where God is going to put us all. And how will I find my friends and relatives in that crowd? And will we be on a pristine Earth?

That's all the second level stuff.

Afterlife is the life we live once we've been resurrected.Don't you understand: it is that same life.
It appears Walter is angry againAppearences can be deceiving, just as the two of you are deceiving yourselves.

WG -- Afterlife is the life we live once we've been resurrected.

Don't you understand: it is that same life.
Yes, that's what I said!

Yes, that's what I said! Would you just stop?
the more interested I become in an Afterlife and wonder what it really will be like.I'm afraid you have little to know Idea of what that life is, or what it is I'm talking about.
In short; The two become one. Those that claim to have Christ Jesus, have already made the transition. They have already died...they will not die again.

And don't give me any of this - well you know what I mean malarkey. Jesus said Lazarus was asleep. The disciples didn't understand, so he told them plainly...Lazarus is dead. Jesus lived the life - so we don't have to. Jesus died a murderous death - so we don't have to. Enoch walked with God and was taken up. How much different was he vs the Israelites when they heard the voice of God?

It's not about us - it's not about us going to heaven in the afterlife. It's about God coming to earth to live his life with you.

So, waltero, your conclusion (in plain English and understandable terms) is....

It's not about us - it's not about us going to heaven in the afterlife. It's about God coming to earth to live his life with you.

What's it going to be like? And I knew this man, if in a body or if without the body, I do not know. 2 Corinthians 12:3

You are thinking carnally.

It's not about us - it's not about us going to heaven in the afterlife. It's about God coming to earth to live his life with you.

God HAS been living with me and in me since I was born!


You are thinking carnally.
No, that's what YOU are doing!

just as the two of you are deceiving yourselves.If believing the Bible is being deceived, then I plead guilty.

As to a life after this one, Jesus had this to say. "Don’t let your heart be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you? 3 If I go away and prepare a place for you, I will come again and take you to myself, so that where I am you may be also." Now I realize you frequently seem to place but little value on the Bible, but it does certainly seem that you see this differently than Jesus did.

Even the text you quoted does not support you. "And I knew this man, if in a body or if without the body, I do not know. 2 Corinthians 12:3." You did not give the entire quote because, I suppose, it does not support your ideas. "2 I know a man in Christ who was caught up to the third heaven fourteen years ago. Whether he was in the body or out of the body, I don’t know; God knows. 3 I know that this man—whether in the body or out of the body I don’t know; God knows— 4 was caught up into paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a human being is not allowed to speak." Very plainly Paul was not on this earth in that experience. He was in a "third heaven" which he referred to as "Paradise".

Walter, your basic problem here is that you expect us to agree with your beliefs simply because they are your beliefs. I hope you realize that you must have far more than that.

Yes, we do already have the life of Christ. That is not the issue at all.

@JL
You are upside down. Paul was saying that life is not a matter of the flesh. He mentioned that [a man in Christ] was caught up to the third heaven fourteen years ago. Being in his body he did not know because his life is in Jesus, and his body doesn't exist. He could not tell the difference because he did not live according to the flesh.
You are thinking carnally.
No, that's what YOU are doing!Do not love this World or the things of this World. We do not belong to this world. We belong to the Kingdom of Heaven (try convincing others of that fact)...believe it.
Gotta go with WG on this one. You go with her. I'll go with God. :-P

Being in his body he did not know because his life is in Jesus, and his body doesn't exist.Paul's body did not exist??? Just nonsensical.


I'll go with God.I seriously wish you would, but to go with God you have to go with the Bible. That is the very thing you are unwilling to do. Still, I do hope to see you go in that direction.

Well, it would seem that Walter has disappeared again. It does get frustrating to try and have a discussion with a person who does not seem to like having his ideas questioned.

Well, it would seem that Walter has disappeared again. It does get frustrating to try and have a discussion with a person who does not seem to like having his ideas questioned.
A discussion doesn't include criticisms and put-downs of the other person(s). (Yes, I'm guilty of that too.) We should go with comments/questions such as, "Please explain" and "What evidence do you have?".

It does get frustrating to try and have a discussion There is no discussion between us. I simply say something and you thwart it as nonsense. You simply don't understand what it is I am saying.

Take WG for instance; "you're thinking carnally." - "No I'm not, you are."

Okay, let me explain. (WG)"I wonder what the afterlife will be like." That is her Carnal body speaking. I tell you it will be much like it is (spiritually)in the here and now. Your body won't matter, and your carnality is non-existent...because in this life, we have put off the flesh (died to self, to the carnal nature).

Same thing with Paul (when he was caught up) His carnal flesh was irrelevant. He didn't know, he didn't care whether he was in his body or not...It went unnoticed... non-existent.

I believe I mentioned Enoch - He walked with God. When walking with God, you will not be swayed one way or the other. You are walking with God and all else is non-material.

I'm surprised neither of you picked up an argument when I mentioned that Jesus was only able to start his ministry once he gained the Holy Spirit...and here we have WG telling us God has been with her since she was Born. Yes, and I believe God was with Jesus before he was conceived...yet it means nothing until you receive the Holy Spirit.

I come on this site every now and again to try and set you straight. You're constantly getting into these Carnal arguments trying to convince each other...

Tomder55 posts keep me coming back to this site...keeps me informed.
Every now and then I read one of your two posts and feel I should interject.

@jlisenbe: You sound like a Democrat when you keep saying that nobody here has ever posted anything of that nature. Just like a Dem, every time somebody mentions a fact, they simply respond - "Nope," no it isn't, isn't true.

The fact is, both of you have entertained the possibility of Adom being... When Athos was talking about being born of a sinful nature, he mentioned that God had to be married to Mother Mary in order to impregnate Her.

How is anybody able to converse with somebody who doesn't even remember a discussion they were involved in, much less deny it?

Same thing with Paul (when he was caught up) His carnal flesh was irrelevant. He didn't know, he didn't care whether he was in his body or not...It went unnoticed... non-existent.But that's not what you said. You claimed, "...his body doesn't exist," so you need to agree with yourself before you post. His body was never, "nonexistent".


You sound like a Democrat when you keep saying that nobody here has ever posted anything of that nature. Just like a Dem, every time somebody mentions a fact, they simply respond - "Nope," no it isn't, isn't true.

The fact is, both of you have entertained the possibility of Adom being... When Athos was talking about being born of a sinful nature, he mentioned that God had to be married to Mother Mary in order to impregnate Her.I will be charitable and say that you are greatly mistaken when you suggest I have "entertained" the idea of Adam being non-binary, or that I "keep saying that nobody here ever posted anything of that nature." I never said any such thing about "nobody here", and I have never suggested Adam was non-binary. Never happened, so please stop with the fake news. As for Athos, he is dead and gone, and I certainly have no intention of defending his statements.


I believe I mentioned Enoch - He walked with God. When walking with God, you will not be swayed one way or the other. You are walking with God and all else is non-material.That is your opinion, but the Bible never says, "When walking with God, you will not be swayed one way or the other. You are walking with God and all else is non-material." It is an unbiblical teaching. Now if you want to say that the spiritual is of a much greater importance, then I would agree completely with that, but as you often seem to do, you take the point much too far. But if you really believe what you said, then try doing without air and food for a month and see what happens. After all, that is merely that "non-material" stuff. Right?

You continue to live in the material world. When you simply entertain the hypothesis (WG, Athos, etc.) you fall into error.
There is no life outside of Jesus. We do not live according to this world and its desires. This world and everything attributed to it is going to die.
But if you really believe what you said, then try doing without air and food for a month and see what happens.What does that matter? See what happens, why don't you tell me what happens?
You're living, thinking carnally. A Christian knows what will happen and would not be afraid...such as you are.
Don't be afraid. Let it go.

You continue to live in the material world.As do you and every other human being.


There is no life outside of Jesus. We do not live according to this world and its desires. This world and everything attributed to it is going to die.With this statement, I think you are correct. It's when you go bonkers and suggest that the body does not exist that you get into trouble.


A Christian knows what will happen and would not be afraid...such as you are.
Don't be afraid. Let it go.You are cooking up stories again. I've said nothing about being afraid. Please learn to be truthful. It is just silly for me to have to correct your fables over and over again.

You continue to live in the material world. When you simply entertain the hypothesis (WG, Athos, etc.) you fall into error.

What does this mean? -- "entertain the hypothesis"


You're living, thinking carnally. A Christian knows what will happen and would not be afraid.
What will happen?

WG, I think he is referring to the made up story that you or I considered Adam to be non-binary, or that God (or someone) married Mary. He has been told repeatedly that I have not said that, and I don't believe you have either. I don't know why he persists in it. His latest maneuver was to suggest that Athos said it. Who knows?

WG, I think he is referring to the made up story that you or I considered Adam to be non-binary, or that God (or someone) married Mary. He has been told repeatedly that I have not said that, and I don't believe you have either. I don't know why he persists in it. His latest maneuver was to suggest that Athos said it. Who knows?
I put on my librarian hat and did a bit of research in this site -- and found this, posted on July 17, 2022, a response by WG:

"Adam and Eve used their God-given free will to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. And then the universe became subject to endless possibilities, including the fact that both sex and gender are now on a spectrum."

I can't find anything non binary posted by Athos except comments about trans women competing in sports on women's teams.

And no, I've never considered Adam as being non binary. Wikipedia defines non binary as: "Non-binary gender is an umbrella term for gender identities that are not male or female, such as androgynous, agender, bigender, or genderqueer."

It seems from reading the Genesis 1-3, the Creation story, that God had plans that a human male creation and a human female creation would mate and produce offspring so the Earth would begin to be populated.

I have trouble navigating around this site. It takes me a long time to find previous posts.
I remember all of you going on about something to do with; The nature of Sin and being Born in the nature of sin. Trying to figure out If Jesus was born in Sin. HE mentioned (somewhere along the way) that in order for the Holy Spirit to impregnate Mary, God had to be married to Mother Mary.
I also remember the two of you going off about this or that being nonbinary or binary or whatever. I interjected that it was binary...Got a thank you from JL and we left it at that.

Maybe Neither of you was suggesting that being true or false. You might have simply been yammering on about nothing (in your mind). Do you remember when the Sadducees asked Jesus a question? They asked him a question about something they didn't even believe in.

You are so involved with your mind that you can't see straight. Your education has ruined you.

I have trouble navigating around this site. It takes me a long time to find previous posts.
I remember all of you going on about something to do with; The nature of Sin and being Born in the nature of sin. Trying to figure out If Jesus was born in Sin. HE mentioned (somewhere along the way) that in order for the Holy Spirit to impregnate Mary, God had to be married to mother Mary.
I also remember the two of you going off about this or that being nonbinary or binary or whatever. I interjected that it was binary.
Nope, I know how to search and navigate. Those "goings off" did not happen, or at least not the way you remember. Will continue to search.

WG is right. I don't know who had those discussions, or if they even occurred, but it did not involve me suggesting Adam was non-binary or the silly suggestion that Jesus was born in sin and God marrying Mary.

You really need to learn to tell the truth before speculating on education ruining others. What caused you to start posting so much fake news?

but it did not involve me suggesting Adam was non-binary or the silly suggestion that Jesus was born in sin and God marrying Mary.I never said you (you specifically) suggested anything of the sort.
The Jesus Born in or Out of Sin was me making reference to the discussion that was taking place...to help you find the thread. WG going off about nonbinary, Alagory, unconditional love, etc. Is her usual stance.

You have entertained such discussions. And you might have simply (for the sake of argument) entertained the premise.
There was a discussion where Athos mentioned God being married to Mother Mary - the discussion went on and nobody picked up on it. Much the same when DW asked a question and I jumped right in, asking if it was an honest question. You all declared I was ridiculous and that it was 100% an honest and valid question...when two threads down, DW said (unbeknownst to all) that it wasn't even a question! It was right there in black and white, I quoted said post and you all simply acted like it didn't matter what he said.

Do you realize people jump into these discussions not reading the 20 pages before a statement is made?
Why entertain such silly discourse?

I never said you (you specifically) suggested anything of the sort.Walter, you most certainly did.

"What gets me is when the two of you go off on some cockamamy discussions about God married Mary, Adom was non-binary."

"The fact is, both of you have entertained the possibility of Adom being..."

Thankfully, you have now seen your error. Your statements are completely false.


You have entertained such discussions. And you might have simply (for the sake of argument) entertained the premise.
There was a discussion where Athos mentioned God being married to Mother Mary - the discussion went on and nobody picked up on it.You have much to learn about honesty. Nobody picked up on it? Well, maybe that was because nobody agreed with it. Anyone here will tell you that I was no ally of Athos. We disagreed far more than we agreed. Learn to be accurate in your observations,.

@jlisenbe: You sound like a Democrat when you keep saying that nobody here has ever posted anything of that nature. Just like a Dem, every time somebody mentions a fact, they simply respond - "Nope," no it isn't, isn't true.Another wild tale. Not only have I not kept saying that "nobody here ever posted anything of that nature," I never even said it once. My statement concerned WG, me, and no one else. It had nothing to do with "nobody here". If you really think you can, "come on this site every now and again to try and set you straight," then maybe you need to set yourself straight first.

"nobody here ever posted anything of that nature," I never even said it once You didn't use the word "Nature." but you most certainly said it.


When talking to a flat Earhter, DO you find it entertaining? Is it at all educational?
Or maybe you wouldn't even attempt talking to a flat earther? My point is simple; How are you going to explain to somebody that hell is real? Have you ever been to hell? Do you believe in hell...I mean believe in hell the same as you believe in God?
You are trying to convince others because you need to convince yourself. We all need to seek a personal relationship with God. It has been said that you can become closer to the Bible than you can to your own wife. You must believe the Bible is the seed of life...beyond all understanding. Your flesh is of little value. Discard the flesh and live in the spirit. when living in the Spirit, you will not be concerned with air, food, or time. Time has no relevance, your death means nothing.

You must believe the Bible is the seed of life...beyond all understanding. So you are saying you don't understand the Bible?

I believe in hell because Jesus clearly taught there is a hell.


You didn't use the word "Nature." but you most certainly said it.I said it, but I didn't use it? Do you realize what a contradictory statement that is? And I don't say that to be mean, but in hopes that you will see how incoherent sometimes you are. At any rate, the key element was "nobody here", not the word "nature". Please pay attention.

At any rate, the key element was "nobody here", not the word "nature".If the keyword was not nature, then how does it become contradictory?

The key element was "nobody here That's what we were talking about. And yes you did say it. I was amazed that you said it when you said it. And it appears to me every time you say something to that same effect..." I never said that"...nor has anybody on this site.


Quote by JL (jlisenbe); "No one here has stated that or said anything to that effect."
Topic: Quora question from an agnostic/atheist regarding the Book of Revelation.
post 2:10

This would not be the First time you said this.

You are involved in so many discussions on this Forum, that you Couldn't possibly remember what has been said by you or others.

You had claimed, "What gets me is when the two of you go off on some cockamamy discussions about God married Mary, Adom was non-binary." I replied, "No one here has ever claimed either of those to be the case, so I have no idea where you got that from." Neither WG or I (the two of you) ever said such a thing. Period. Then you tried to claim it was Athos, but you don't really know if that's true either. For that matter, it seems you can't point out any place where anyone here ever made that claim.

As to the hundreds of others who used to post here, I don't know what they have said, but since the topic involved only, "the two of you", then your statement is wrong. I don't think either of us ever said anything of that sort. Your imagination has gotten away with you.

Nearly three years ago I posted, "You flippant attitude is unappealing. There are no "non-binary types" in the Bible. It plainly condemns sex outside of marriage and plainly defines marriage as between a man and a woman." Now how you got from there to me suggesting that Adam was non-binary must have been quite the adventure. WG's claim has been that after Genesis 3, the whole non-binary deal was set in motion. That might very well be true since sin does a lot of things, but it doesn't amount to her saying that Adam was non-binary. Yet even if it did, we discuss things here. It's what we do. If you don't like the discussion, then don't engage in it.

And why we are even talking about this is beyond me.

JL Quote: Not only have I not kept saying that "nobody here ever posted anything of that nature," """I never even said it once""" (At any rate, the key element was "nobody here", not the word "nature".)
JL Quote:"No one here has stated that or said anything to that effect."You just said you had never posted such a statement...Here it is.
Topic: Quora question from an agnostic/atheist regarding the Book of Revelation.
post 2:10
JL posted - quote: "No one here has stated that or said anything to that effect." - And he continues to believe he never said any such thing - JL posted - Quote: "I never even said it once." end Quote.

You continue to waver JL. Now you're back to your original "nobody here has ever said such a thing".

As long as it's settled in your mind...This is your Carnal mind speaking.

I'm sure if I did some research I could find it. But the fact of the matter is - your response would be the same as you are doing here. Like I said before, and keep on saying...You can't convince (not in the way in which you think) an unbeliever.

Your heated discussions have run you ragged.

I have never once said that Adam was non-binary. What is so difficult about that for you to understand? I am wavering about nothing.


I'm sure if I did some research I could find it.I don't think you can do the research, but if you did, you would find nothing from me. (Hint: I've already done it.)


Like I said before, and keep on saying...You can't convince (not in the way in which you think) an unbeliever.In what way do you think I see it?

To this day, I cannot figure out what you are so upset about. This ("What gets me is when the two of you go off on some cockamamy discussions about God married Mary, Adom was non-binary.") can't be it since "the two of us" have not said that Adam was non-binary.

Honestly - what is the matter with you?
I have never once said that Adam was non-binary.I never said you did.

In case you have forgotten, and can't understand what it is I'm talking about. You said that you have never said such and such. And you went on to say; that you would have never mentioned whether anybody else from this site has said such and such because you couldn't possibly know what somebody might or might not have said, in the many discussions coming from this forum. Yet you keep saying that! you continue to say that nobody from this site has ever said that. As if you wouldn't be involved in a discussion with such dribble

And what business do you have saying - "I never said" - when you said; "I never said; No one here has stated that or said anything to that effect...not even once, have I ever made such a statement."

And I just posted you saying that. I quoted that very statement in one of your earlier posts in a different thread.
In what way do you think I see it?Exacly! You are looking with your eyes.
.
This might help search.
The two of you were discussing the Gospel being binary or nonbinary.

The two of you were discussing the Gospel being binary or nonbinary.
Please explain what that means. Living things, not books or teachings, are binary or non-binary. (Do you know what binary/non-binary means?)

And please give us the title of the AMHD question this "discussion" is in.

And please give us the title of the AMHD question this "discussion" is inIt would not be in your best interest to find it. It would only prove you wrong.
At this point, I really don't care. Neither you nor JL knows what you're talking about.

Regardless if we find it or not, the two of you will stick to your guns and deny anything was ever mentioned (just like the above statement that JL said he never!).

It's the same thing when I mentioned Paul's body was non-existent. You don't get it. you will pretend you don't know what it is I'm talking about. When in fact Paul didn't know if he was in his body or not ("or not" -The possibility of his body not existing for that moment, seemed utterly blasphemous to you). When you run into a burning fire to rescue your cat, you might not pay any attention to the fire or your body. But when God tells you to run into a burning building, you will always consider what the fire will do to your body...unless you are walking with God. How likely are you going to convince somebody to run into a blazing furnace? How likely are "you" going to verbally convince a nonbeliever that God exists? can't be done... that's why apologetics is a miss. It's good for some things, but it is not where we should put our hope.

Waltero, your avoiding my question sounds like you don't know what binary and non-binary mean. Gender binary, not mathematical binary.

In your discussion with JL, it sounded like you didn't know the Gospel.
You yourself didn't understand the Gospel as being binary.

(really, do we need to go through this again?)

I never know where you're coming from WG. So I try to avoid you whenever possible...sorry.

Waltero, how is the Gospel binary? Or non-binary?

In case you have forgotten, and can't understand what it is I'm talking about. You said that you have never said such and such. And you went on to say; that you would have never mentioned whether anybody else from this site has said such and such because you couldn't possibly know what somebody might or might not have said, in the many discussions coming from this forum. Yet you keep saying that! you continue to say that nobody from this site has ever said that. As if you wouldn't be involved in a discussion with such dribble

And what business do you have saying - "I never said" - when you said; "I never said; No one here has stated that or said anything to that effect...not even once, have I ever made such a statement."It has been explained to you. You choose to ignore the explanation. Your choice.

You said earlier, " Like I said before, and keep on saying...You can't convince (not in the way in which you think) an unbeliever." I'm just wondering what you believe I'm thinking about convincing unbelievers since I don't know what you mean by that.


This might help search.
The two of you were discussing the Gospel being binary or nonbinary.I looked up every place I have mentioned "non-binary". At no place is there a reference to a "Gospel being nonbinary", so I don't know what you are referring to. To call the Gospel "non-binary" makes no sense to me.

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/search.php?searchid=15305045

To call the Gospel "non-binary" makes no sense to me. Well, at the time - you seemed to have a hard time convincing WG that it was a binary Gospel... until I entered the discussion (hard to believe, right).
Do you know that tomorrow you will forget 40% of what you were doing today?
You choose to ignore the explanation An explanation would only work for you. The fact of the matter is; that you said - X - and you claimed you had never (not even once) said - "X."Nothing you say can divert the fact that you have been proven a liar. I use the word "liar" because you are in denial. Because you honestly believe an explanation can put you in the right...when you have been proven wrong. You've been engaging in some pretty silly discussions...this is one of them...Convincing yourself that you are not in error is tragic. Continuing to try and convince others is detrimental.

What good is that link?

Maybe try searching "Binary Gospel"?

Waltero, we were discussing binary people, not Gospel.

Please quote what JL said, or at least tell us where it is.

Well, at the time - you seemed to have a hard time convincing WG that it was a binary Gospel... until I entered the discussion (hard to believe, right).
Do you know that tomorrow you will forget 40% of what you were doing today?I gave you a search link above to show that I have not mentioned a "binary Gospel". I can do no more for you. Now you and WG talked about it as the search below will show you if you have the time to look at it. You will note that I was not involved in your conversation. Is this part of the 40% you are mistaken about???

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/search.php?searchid=15306921

I have already search for it and came up with the link above. But you are secure in your fantasy world, so I can't help you.

When you find that place where WG or I spoke of "Adom" being binary, or of God marrying Mary, be sure to let us know. I will patiently wait.

Paul's body did not exist??? Just nonsensical.So you're going to straighten Paul out?
If believing the Bible is being deceived, then I plead guilty.Jl, It's more than a belief, it's much more than believing. It's more than a doctrine, it's more than a creed, it's more than a body, it's a life. A living being that is in you. You don't believe in it, you live it. A Christian doesn't say [to themselves] "I love God," Their heart cries aloud - why don't I love God more than I do?

Look at what? the link is blank. Besides, I could care less what it is you're going on about. The fact of the matter is, there is a lot of silly goings on around here...And you are just as guilty as the lot of us.
When you find that place where WG or I spoke of Here we go again. What happened to "Nobody here has ever said anything to that effect"???

Give it up already.

Good day

Please quote what JL said, or at least tell us where it is.Don't hold your breath, WG.


So you're going to straighten Paul out?Paul never said his body did not exist. You're simply making that up. What he DID say was that he was taken up into the presence of God (the third heaven), but he did not know if it was just his spirit or if he was still in his body, a body which you absurdly claim does not even exist. The text reads, "I know a man in Christ who was caught up to the third heaven fourteen years ago. Whether he was in the body or out of the body, I don’t know; God knows."


Jl, It's more than a belief, it's much more than believing. It's more than a doctrine, it's more than a creed, it's more than a body, it's a life. A living being that is in you. You don't believe in it, you live it. A Christian doesn't say [to themselves] "I love God," Their heart cries aloud - why don't I love God more than I do?What does that have to do with believing the Bible, a Bible which, as usual, you did not bother to refer to? For instance, where does the Bible tell us, "A Christian doesn't say [to themselves] 'I love God.'"

This whole thread is in the same place the thread about hell was in. When told by some here that hell was not a real place, I quoted over thirty passages of scripture, involving more than a hundred verses, which affirmed it does exist, only to be told I was "cherry-picking". In your case, Walter, you simply ignore what you don't like. Your beliefs do not seem to me to be based on Bible teaching at all.


Here we go again. What happened to "Nobody here has ever said anything to that effect"???

Give it up already.Just trying to give you a chance as did WG. I knew in advance that you would not take it.'

This link works fine for me. https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/search.php?searchid=15306921

"Nobody here has ever said anything to that effect"???This is only one example. In an earlier post, you stated that you never said this (above). I did a search and here it is (see above)
The text reads, "I know a man in Christ Who's body was he in?


your link
I get nothing but a blank page. Maybe you could tell me what thread it is under?

As far as the (Athos) Mary being married to God thing. Maybe this will help. - So that Mary could bear Jesus. Jesus could not have been born from a sinful mother.

WG, I don't know verbatim what was said. I don't know what thread it was under.

@JL. When I mentioned (earlier thread) why I believe in the Bible, and you brought up Circular reasoning - in that thread somebody had mentioned that apologetics had brought them back (saved them). Come to a later thread you said - "Nobody here has ever said anything to that effect." That is what started all this. Out of respect to the blogger, I didn't want to repost his (diminishing a heartfelt experience) emotional response. I'm sure if you do a search you will easily find it. Or if I do a tedious search, I'm sure I can find it. I already posted a thread from you that you said you never (not even once) said.

If it will shut you up, I will gladly Search and destroy your entire argument. The fact is, WG had taken the position (for the sake of argument or whatever) that Adam [might] had been created Non-binary. Also somewhere along the discussion (entirely different), Athos had dropped in there - God was married (with his spirit) to Mary, in order for a mother (to be a legit mother, I assume) to give birth to a sinless child.

Everything thought up and discussed (here) is carnal in nature. Apologetics is largely to convince the carnal mind to believe...believe in what? To convince your mind that the Bible is the actual word of God? So what, even the demons believe that.

Who's body was he in?You mean Paul? Whose body was Paul in? Is that what you are seriously asking?

You set the parameter "the two of you". I was responding to that. My response was imprecise, so I will happily plead guilty to that. I guess I just assumed everyone here would know that neither I nor anyone else has a full knowledge of what dozens if not hundreds of people have posted on this site. At any rate, you have failed to point out a single quote where either of us said what you alleged.


Or if I do a tedious search, I'm sure I can find it.I encourage you to do that. Searches on this site are actually very easy. The search app is very good.


If it will shut you up, I will gladly Search and destroy your entire argument.First of all, I don't even know what "argument" you are referring to. But even at that, if you mean your idea that "the two of us" might have suggested that "Adom" was non-binary, then I would like to see it. We have asked you to do so repeatedly. Please do.

I don't know why my search link is not working unless it has to be logged in as me to work. But the search is simple. Go to "search" at the top, select "advanced search", and then put in the word(s) and user ID you want to search for. Do yourself a favor and tell it to search for "posts". The results are much easier to deal with.

Of course, the alternative would be for us to discuss something meaningful. Perhaps this.
Paul never said his body did not exist. You're simply making that up. What he DID say was that he was taken up into the presence of God (the third heaven), but he did not know if it was just his spirit or if he was still in his body, a body which you absurdly claim does not even exist. The text reads, "I know a man in Christ who was caught up to the third heaven fourteen years ago. Whether he was in the body or out of the body, I don’t know; God knows."

Even better, maybe you could tell us what it is that you find so irritating. I've seen angry people on this board before, but I could always tell what they were angry about. With you, and I say this respectfully, it is difficult.

This must be the "circular reasoning" post you are referring to. You were definitely guilty of circular reasoning in that post, but even at that, I don't see what it has to do with the present thread.

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?t=850797&page=3&p=3891810#post3891810

This was the post.


Circular reasoning, is it not?

"Why do I trust the Bible?" "Because I trust God."

"How do I know about God?" "I discover God in the Bible which I trust."

"But how can I know I should trust the Bible?" "By trusting in the God I read about in the Bible."

And on and on it would go.

With you, and I say this respectfully, it is difficult.Because I know I don't need to be on this site. Because every time I leave, it draws me back in... much like Sin. The discussions here are fruitless. The earlier ones (with Athos) I enjoyed. But with the three or four supposed Christians?
Neither I nor anyone else has a full knowledge of what dozens if not hundreds of people have posted on this site.Then why would you ever respond ("Nobody here has ever said anything to that effect") as if you have full knowledge of whatever comes down the pike?
Whose body was Paul in? Is that what you are seriously asking?
Are you in Christ? Whose body are you in?

Then why would you ever respond ("Nobody here has ever said anything to that effect") as if you have full knowledge of whatever comes down the pike?Because you had limited it to, "the two of you", as has been explained to you ENDLESSLY. But as I said, my language was imprecise, so I plead guilty to that. As I said, I would imagine that any thinking person would know that no one has any idea what perhaps hundreds of people have posted over the past ten or twenty years. Still, I should have been more careful.


Are you in Christ? I am in Christ and Christ is in me.
Whose body are you in?I am in my body. Paul was in Paul's body. Jesus was in his body. Peter was in Peter's body. Is this really difficult??? For you to suggest Paul's body did not even exist was just ridiculous. I can only assume you meant to say something else.



Now this man acquired a field with his unrighteous wages. He fell headfirst, his body burst open and his intestines spilled out.
Acts 5:6 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%205%3A6&version=CSB)
The young men got up, wrapped his body, carried him out, and buried him.
Acts 9:40 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%209%3A40&version=CSB)
Peter sent them all out of the room. He knelt down, prayed, and turning toward the body said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, saw Peter, and sat up.
Romans 4:19 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%204%3A19&version=CSB)
He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body to be already dead (since he was about a hundred years old) and also the deadness of Sarah’s womb.
Romans 6:6 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%206%3A6&version=CSB)
For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be rendered powerless so that we may no longer be enslaved to sin,


Now yes, I am part of the body of Christ, but clearly that was not Paul's reference in the 2 Corinthians passage, for we Christians are ALWAYS part of that body.

But with the three or four supposed Christians?What makes you question that?

I am in my body.I don't have time to explain the Body of Christ. Chances are your Carnal mind and body wouldn't pick up on it anyway.
What makes you question that?Because I have to question whether any (including me) Christian should be engaged in such a waste of time, as here. There might have been a time when I learned something while coming here. That time has long passed. This Forum will slowly wither away, and I can't help but think of the poor souls that are going down with the ship.

You act as if every thread is a separate topic. All "Christian" topics (in this forum) are of the same thread. So when you say "here," as in - Nobody here has ever said anything to that effect. - it encompasses all threads of the same category, nature, and book (for me anyway).

Because I have to question whether any (including me) Christian should be engaged in such a waste of time, as here.So you question yourself as well?


You act as if every thread is a separate topic. All "Christian" topics (in this forum) are of the same threadThat's because every thread IS a separate topic. Good grief.


I don't have time to explain the Body of Christ. Chances are your Carnal mind and body wouldn't pick up on it anyway.It's this kind of arrogant garbage that makes you irritating. You have no idea, but you don't want to admit it.

That's because every thread IS a separate topic.Not when it falls under the Christian category. It's the same message. You're not trying to convince somebody of this or that... you're referring to a life. Not your life.

That is because if you believe - that every story that is based on true life, comes from the same book. You really don't understand, do you? I think it has more to do with the fact that you don't want to understand. And your ability to manipulate the facts to fit your Position.
Good grief.Why always so smug?

Do you think that you might be lacking in spiritual vitality or maturity? You should be shocked by your explicit carnality.

You are only here to Argue your position...that is all.

Not when it falls under the Christian category. It's the same message.
Under Christianity, there are many threads, each with a different topic. Here are recent ones:
1. A movie, "The Encounter"
2. The Book of Acts
3. The Book of Revelation
4. Eutychus
5. Hell
6. Fundamentalism
7. Heaven
8. Forgiveness
9. Universalism
10. Gabriel

The questioners are looking for information and even opinions on a variety of topics.

There is no "same message".

If you want to believe that Pauls body did not exist and that all threads are of the same topic, then go for it.

Well said, WG

That is because if you believe - that every story that is based on true life, comes from the same book. You really don't understand, do you?I realize you value these statements and consider them to be true, but you are unable to connect it with any teaching in the Bible, and until you can, it's just your opinion. I am not swayed by your opinions.

Sunday I preached on humility. I began with these five passages. I did so because I wanted the people to know that the idea of God blessing the humble did not come from me. It was not merely my opinion.

Luke 18:15. everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
Is. 66:2. I will look favorably on this kind of person: one who is humble, submissive[a (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+66&version=CSB#fen-CSB-18925a)] in spirit, and trembles at my word.
Matt. 5:5. Blessed are the humble, for they will inherit the earth.
Psalm 149:4. For the Lord takes pleasure in his people; he adorns the humble with salvation.
1 Peter 5:5 All of you clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God, so that he may exalt you at the proper time.

That is because if you believe - that every story that is based on true life, comes from the same book.
you are unable to connect it with any teaching in the Bible.
We have the Old Testament and we have the New Testament...they are both one and the same story, one and the same life.

This all started when I was talking down toward apologetics. Okay, can we get past all that?

I will try to use this discussion as an example of how your Christian Values, Christian thinking, Christian speaking, and "life" interact with everything Christian and the life that is in you.

While talking about apologetics, I mentioned how somebody here was brought back by apologetics. Then JL responded - "I have never said that nor has anybody here (here; meaning this particular thread) ever said such a thing."

Okay, at that time I did not understand that you meant "nobody here," as in this particular thread/topic. If you are able to see where it is I'm coming from, this (apologetics) topic has been covered over a long period of time under many (it takes just one) different topics.

So, when I mentioned (in an earlier topic) why I believe the Bible is true, JL Mentioned that he feels the same way (understood). Later in that same conversation, another person mentioned how apologetics brought him back. Then we get a response from JL... believing as if all three of us were agreeing on the same thing. I left it (the topic) at that time because I didn't want to ruin their moment. So here I am again, entered another Topic and Apoligetics comes up. I mentioned something having to do with apologetics...something along the lines of - apologetics and the truth of the Bible. I mentioned somebody here saying apologetics brought them back. While JL believes and has a heartfelt understanding with the previous (in a different thread) poster. Being that you were of the same mind, what does it matter if I mention somebody here (as in this topic) or another thread/topic? There is no here in the topic, here in the thread... there is only here in the forum. And you know as well as I do that we have covered many different topics in posts that have nothing to do with the original poster's subject matter.

So now we are discussing the apostle Paul and a particular verse. There was a particular time in Paul's earthly life when he did not know if he was in his body. If his body mattered don't you think he would know if he was in his body? It is apparent, he didn't know nor did he care. So why did he mention it (I'll let you figure that one out)? For all practical purposes, Paul's flesh didn't (matter) exist!

So when I mention Paul and his body (we are clearly talking about a particular time and place), you take it as me saying Paul's Body didn't exist at all. On one hand, you say I, as in you were talking here (as in this particular thread), and on the other hand, you act as if talking about the course of Paul's entire life. I'm saying the same thing that Paul has been trying to explain to all who believe. Put off the flesh and its desires. Walk in Spirit and in truth.


You once told me I should shorten my posts. How about letting me be me?

I mentioned how somebody here was brought back by apologetics. Then JL responded - "I have never said that nor has anybody here (here; meaning this particular thread) ever said such a thing."Actually, as I recall, my response was to your claim that WG or I had carried on a discussion about God marrying Mary or Adam being binary. "What gets me is when the two of you go off on some cockamamy discussions about God married Mary, Adom was non-binary." I think DW made the apologetics comment you are referring to.

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showpost.php?p=3893241&postcount=232

Walter, you seem like a sincere guy and I am glad you post here. I don't always understand what you are trying to say, but it's good that you put your ideas out there. I hope you will continue. I've decided to make a serious effort to try and be a little more civil and humble in our discussions.


So now we are discussing the apostle Paul and a particular verse. There was a particular time in Paul's earthly life when he did not know if he was in his body. If his body mattered don't you think he would know if he was in his body? It is apparent, he didn't know nor did he care. So why did he mention it (I'll let you figure that one out)? For all practical purposes, Paul's flesh didn't (matter) exist!That is certainly a more common-sense explanation. Thanks for the clarification.

So now we are discussing the apostle Paul and a particular verse. There was a particular time in Paul's earthly life when he did not know if he was in his body. If his body mattered don't you think he would know if he was in his body? It is apparent, he didn't know nor did he care. So why did he mention it (I'll let you figure that one out)? For all practical purposes, Paul's flesh didn't (matter) exist!
So when I mention Paul and his body (we are clearly talking about a particular time and place), you take it as me saying Paul's Body didn't exist at all. On one hand, you say I, as in you were talking here (as in this particular thread), and on the other hand, you act as if talking about the course of Paul's entire life. I'm saying the same thing that Paul has been trying to explain to all who believe. Put off the flesh and its desires. Walk in Spirit and in truth.
Am I still in question here? please explain. There should be no here and then when it comes to Christian life.



Actually, as I recallIt started much earlier with my statement about WG and you (I can't find it so I apologize. I was wrong). But That really doesn't matter anymore. The above post is my entire take on the entire situation.


Every story that is based on true life, comes from the same book.Can you not see this to be true? I suggest you think about it and believe it to be true.
Think about it - All Christians share the same life (true life).

The "Adam binary/non-binary" confusion probably arose from a post I made on July 17, 2022, in the "Transgender Women" thread:

"Adam and Eve used their God-given free will to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. And then the universe became subject to endless possibilities, including the fact that both sex and gender are now on a spectrum."

And in another post on the same date, in the same thread:

"Things happen to the fetal brain and body during pregnancy. Some of those things involve estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone. Since God's perfect binary system was changed and rewritten by Adam and Eve [via free will], gender identification is no longer what was originally intended. Humans, animals, insects, and even plants are now subject to non-binary possibilities."

Can you not see this to be true? I suggest you think about it and believe it to be true.
Think about it - All Christians share the same life (true life).I know you believe it. I also know that, "Every story that is based on true life, comes from the same book," is a somewhat incoherent statement. What do you mean by, "Every story that is based on true life?"


Since God's perfect binary system was changed and rewritten by Adam and Eve [via free will], There is nothing in the Bible to support such an idea.

There is nothing in the Bible to support such an idea.
Read the first three chapters of Genesis.

Read the first three chapters of Genesis.I've done that many dozens of times. Perhaps you could quote the SPECIFIC passage where it teaches that, "God's perfect binary system was changed and rewritten by Adam and Eve [via free will]."

I will patiently wait.

God created Adam, a binary male, and Eve, a binary female. Adam and Eve used their God-given free will to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Mother Nature became subject to endless possibilities that included transgenderism in insects, birds, animals, plants, humans.

Since you failed utterly the first time, I'll give you a second chance.
Perhaps you could quote the SPECIFIC passage where it teaches that, "God's perfect binary system was changed and rewritten by Adam and Eve [via free will]."

I will patiently wait.You can add quoting the specific passage where it teaches that, " Mother Nature became subject to endless possibilities that included transgenderism in insects, birds, animals, plants, humans."

I'll wait patiently for that one as well. In vain, most likely.

God created Adam, a binary male, and Eve, a binary female. Adam and Eve used their God-given free will to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Mother Nature became subject to endless possibilities that included transgenderism in insects, birds, animals, plants, humans.

If God had not given Adam and Eve free will, they would have essentially been robots, simply doing what they were programmed to do. God created Adam and Eve, as well as the rest of sentient beings on Earth, to be “free” beings, able to make decisions.

Your third and final opportunity. "Thus sayeth Wondergirl" is not sufficient.


1. Perhaps you could quote the SPECIFIC passage where it teaches that, "God's perfect binary system was changed and rewritten by Adam and Eve [via free will]."

2. You can add quoting the specific passage where it teaches that, " Mother Nature became subject to endless possibilities that included transgenderism in insects, birds, animals, plants, humans."

I'll wait patiently for these two as well. Alas, in vain, most likely.

Athos was correct. You're a literalist. I wish he were here.

He couldn't help you. You would be much better served to simply be honest and admit that you have a completely unsupported theory. Instead, you try to be evasive by suggesting that I read the first three chapters of Genesis. At least acknowledge that your ideas are not to be found in the Bible for they are certainly not.

Then how do you account for non-binary in plants, insects, animals, birds, humans?

God created Adam, a binary male, and Eve, a binary female. Adam and Eve used their God-given free will to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Mother Nature became subject to endless possibilities that included transgenderism in insects, birds, animals, plants, humans.Textbook example of a non-sequitur.


Then how do you account for non-binary in plants, insects, animals, birds, humans? Give me an example that is not the result of a genetic abnormality.

People kill each other because of free will. People use their free will to do good or evil. Two male penguins parented an orphan baby penguin because of free will. The internet is full of stories about same-sex individuals that worked together as caregivers.

Give me an example that is not the result of a genetic abnormality.Yet another question unanswered.


People kill each other because of free will. People use their free will to do good or evil. Two male penguins parented an orphan baby penguin because of free will. The internet is full of stories about same-sex individuals that worked together as caregivers.Has nothing to do with the fall of Adam/Eve resulting in non-binary individuals. Nothing at all.


Two male penguins parented an orphan baby penguin because of free will.
You have documentation for this? Even if true, did the two male penguins have sex with each other? Did they continue to mate with female penguins? Did they attempt to act like female penguins?

Yet another question unanswered.

Has nothing to do with the fall of Adam/Eve resulting in non-binary individuals. Nothing at all.
Of course, it does!!! Mother Nature got free will.


You have documentation for this? Even if true, did the two male penguins have sex with each other? Did they continue to mate with female penguins? Did they attempt to act like female penguins?
Yes, I'm a retired librarian, but you have a brain ... hmm ... and can search.

Of course, it does!!!How?



Yes, I'm a retired librarian, but you have a brain ... hmm ... and can search.Let's see now. YOU are retired librarian, and yet you cannot do your own searching and need someone else to do it for you? "Hmm," indeed. Again, you would be better served to be honest and admit you don't know at all.

More unanswered questions. "...did the two male penguins have sex with each other? Did they continue to mate with female penguins? Did they attempt to act like female penguins?" There is now a plethora of them. (I knew you would like that word "plethora".)

It's not MY searching. The obligation is on you. Plus, as a teacher, did you always hold a student's hand? I bet not. You let him do his own work and make discoveries on his own.

You don't know how to research? Googling is so helpful!

One of many similar headlines:

Gay penguin couple become first-time dads at New York zoo

It's not MY searching. The obligation is on you. Plus, as a teacher, did you always hold a student's hand? I bet not. You let him do his own work and make discoveries on his own.

You don't know how to research? Googling is so helpful!So the answer is no, you have no idea whether or not two male penguins raised an orphan penguin. Don't know why you can't just be honest and admit to it. And why I would have some obligation to find documentation for a claim made by you is just a mystery.

Actually, it's not. Just trying to get out of a tight spot, are you?


More unanswered questions. "...did the two male penguins have sex with each other? Did they continue to mate with female penguins? Did they attempt to act like female penguins?" There is now a plethora of them.

I added more to my post. Please read. As I said, that headline is only one of many similar ones.
Here's another:

We’re getting used to celebrity public transgender announcements but did you know that plants can also change their sex?

The Fortingall Yew (Taxus baccata), proclaimed as the UK’s oldest tree is undergoing a partial transformation from male to female.

Yew trees are dioecious (meaning ‘two houses’) so plants can be either male or female. Male plants produce pollen, and female plants have bright red berries. The Fortingall Yew in Perthshire, Scotland, believed to be anything from 3000 to 9000 years old has always been described in records as a male plant. But a few months ago local experts noticed that one small part of the upper canopy was starting to produce female berries.

It’s not an unknown phenomenon for trees to change sex – some conifers do it and ash trees are notorious for switching. The plant’s hormones are altered by environmental factors, or perhaps age. Botanists at the University of Tuscia in Viterbo, Italy have recorded instances of female yew trees changing to male, and noted that female yew trees are more prone to suffer stress.
https://gardendrum.com/2016/01/07/yes-plants-can-become-transgender-too/

Did the Yew tree actually develop female reproductive organs (flowers) thus becoming capable of producing offspring (seeds), or did it simply claim to have become female with no evidence at all?

As to the penguins, I'll ask the unanswered question again. Do the two males have sex with each other, or are they simply companions as in friends? Might add that the entire scenario of the two of them incubating an egg was contrived by the zoo personnel, and referring to them as a "gay couple" is just ridiculous.

I do give you credit for looking up your two examples. Neither of them, however, did anything to prove your case that Adam and Eve somehow released transgenderism on humanity. Keep looking.

I actually have no problem with you using these types of examples to attempt to prove your case for TG and homosexuality. I don't agree with them at all, but it is legit. It's when you try to make this seem legitimate by connecting it to the Bible that you fall flat.

this is what I mean. the two of you are too much.

Judas walked with Jesus for three years, what are the two of you doing?

I'm sorry you don't approve of our discussions.

For me, I am walking with Jesus now more than ever. I hope you are as well.

Give me an example that is not the result of a genetic abnormality.
When God gave the universe free will, that included genetic abnormalities such as autism and bipolar illness and wow! gender identity!

Look around you. Nothing is perfect in this life.

And you've got the wrong penguin story.

When God gave the universe free will, that included genetic abnormalities such as autism and bipolar illness and wow! gender identity!

That is an observation but not an example. I asked for an example concerning your comment about, "...non-binary in plants, insects, animals, birds, humans."

How do you know that bi-polar illness and autism are genetic abnormalities? They might very well be, but I haven't heard that.

For me, I am walking with Jesuswe can say the same for Judas. Watch out!
When God gave the universe free willOne doesn't have free will when it's in one's own nature to sin. Free will belongs to God (and he has a son) and God alone. Iniquity was found in Lucifer (who are his offspring)? You could [almost] say, before the Fall man had free will. After the fall, free will...

The Fall happened because mankind WAS GIVEN free will by God. Mankind had a choice but made the wrong one.

A person sins because he has free will and can make a good choice -- but too often ends up making the wrong choice.

“We can say the same for Judas. Watch out!”

And your advice applies to you as well. Correct??

I said your advice applies to you as well. Correct??

What does "walking with Jesus" mean?

And your advice applies to you as well. Correct??Me, more than anybody else.
mankind WAS GIVEN free will by God.Okay, let us go with that.
Mankind had a choiceOperative word being "Had.
But [ Mankind] made the wrong [choice] one.Wrong choice - According to whom...according to God aka life? God said; "for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die"... an invitation to death?
A person sins because he has free willOr, rather a person sins because they are born in sin. It is in our nature to sin. we can do nothing but sin. All we bring to the table is sin.
and [we] can make a good choice oppose to sinning? Sorry, that is not good enough. it is not the "we" that is important here. "we" will continue to make bad choices and sin regardless of what "we" want. Paul explains that. You're confused. Man's "good choices" are just that - they belong to man and his (this) world...the World that we all know and love (right).

No one is good...
no longer "ZGood choice."
God's choice is where it's at... no longer "free will as we've known it."

WG: and [we] can make a good choice

waltero: oppose to sinning? Sorry, that is not good enough.

WG: We can choose to steal or not steal. We can choose to murder or not murder. We can choose to hate or not hate. And so on.

We still have a choice to do good or do evil.

We still have a choice to do good or do evil.That isn't here nor there.
We Sin."Choosing" to steal or not to steal is still a sin.

So choosing to do something has nothing to do with choice? Not sure I'm following that reasoning.

I choose to stab you for no reason, waltero. Is that a sin?

I choose to smile at you, waltero. Is that a sin?

I choose to smile at you, waltero. Is that a sin?Yes. What makes you choose to smile at me?
Can God sin? Can God choose to sin? Could Jesus sin?

One thing is for sure; man has a choice. Man is continually presented with choices. Just as they say - any person can flip out at any given second. Humans can and do change their minds at the drop of a hat.

Yes. What makes you choose to smile at me?
Being nice to someone is a sin?

Why would I? Perhaps I saw you at McDonald's when you gave a homeless man a few dollar bills. Or perhaps I saw you petting and talking to a dog at the animal shelter.

Being nice to someone is a sin? Yes. If it doesn't come from God it is a sin. Your goodness, your being nice has little to no value.

Can God sin? No
Can God choose to sin? No
Could Jesus sin? Yes


One thing is for sure; man has a choice. Man is continually presented with choices. Just as they say - any person can flip out at any given second. Humans can and do change their minds at the drop of a hat.
That's what I said.


Yes. If it doesn't come from God it is a sin. Your goodness, your being nice has little to no value.
I totally disagree. So when a Hindu or a Sikh or a Buddhist is nice, that's a sin??? Absolutely not!

Could Jesus sin? YesThis is where you go amiss.
One thing is for sure; man has a choice. Man is continually presented with choices. Just as they say - any person can flip out at any given second. Humans can and do change their minds at the drop of a hat. -
That's what I said.
You are confusing choice with free will.
I totally disagree. There goes your mind again. Try not to think with your carnal mind, just for a moment, please. When either of you agree or disagree, then you become blind. You don't want to understand because you have already made up your mind.

I'm taking it slow. I haven't come to the point yet, and already you have made up your mind?

This is where you go amiss
Jesus was true man and true God. Remember the stories in the NT when Jesus was tempted to sin, but He didn't?

You are confusing choice with free will.
Free will says I have a choice.

Could Jesus sin? YesThis is where you go amiss.
One thing is for sure; man has a choice. Man is continually presented with choices. Just as they say - any person can flip out at any given second. Humans can and do change their minds at the drop of a hat. -
That's what I said.
You are confusing choice with free will.
I totally disagree. There goes your mind again. Try not to think with your carnal mind, just for a moment, please. When either of you agree or disagree, then you become blind. You don't want to understand because you have already made up your mind.

I'm taking it slow. I haven't come to the point yet, and already you have made up your mind?

Have it your way. You are correct. Your way is best. Don't bother trying to figure it out...it appears you already have it all figured out (as if anybody is able to figure out God).

That is an observation but not an example. I asked for an example concerning your comment about, "...non-binary in plants, insects, animals, birds, humans
Google is your friend.


How do you know that bi-polar illness and autism are genetic abnormalities? They might very well be, but I haven't heard that.
Bipolar runs in my father side of the family. At least one person in each of three generations has been medically diagnosed as bipolar.

Autism runs in my husband's father's side of the family. Three generations have been affected. Three males were professionally diagnosed.

This is where you go amiss. You are confusing choice with free will.
Free will gives an individual the opportunity to make choices. If no free will, then no choices.

I have free will. I can go to McDonald's and order a chocolate sundae instead of a caramel sundae.

Try not to think with your carnal mindWhat do you mean when you say that?

WG, does God have free will?

What do you mean when you say that?I mean for her to hold her horses before she brings in outside forces (like - Hindu or a Sikh or a Buddhis) to block her mind.

It is as plain as day. Before the fall, man had free will. After the fall man no longer has free will. Free will is the power or capacity of humans to make decisions or perform actions independently of any prior event or prior state of the universe.

I don't mean about Wondergirl. I just mean what does thinking with the carnal mind mean for anyone?

thinking with the carnal mindIt has much to do with the same fact that I don't want to go off onto another tangent.

It is as plain as day. Before the fall, man had free will. After the fall man no longer has free will. Free will is the power or capacity of humans to make decisions or perform actions independently of any prior event or prior state of the universe.

When you say your "choice" you are referring to Lucifer's choice.
As a Christian; when you say "good choice" you are saying God's choice.

IIt is as plain as day. Before the fall, man had free will. After the fall man no longer has free will. Free will is the power or capacity of humans to make decisions or perform actions independently of any prior event or prior state of the universe.
God gave. Adam and Eve free will after He created them. They had a choice to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil -- or not. Eve decided the fruit looked good, so she ate of it, then handed some to Adam to munch on. That's how sin came into the world.

Come on Walter. What does it mean to "think with the carnal mind?" This is not an answer.


It has much to do with the same fact that I don't want to go off onto another tangent.

That's the problem with this forum and the two of you. You are simply looking for an argument. I'd like to stay on subject. is that ok? Soon (as always) the two of you will go off half-blistered on an entirely different tangent.



God gave. Adam and Eve free will after He created themThat's right. Free will was a thing before the event. There is no more free will. We have already chosen. The choice was death. Now we are in the Devil's playground...sin makes the choice for us, sin has already made the choice for us. Whether you know it or not, sin is directing your choice...and we will always choose sin unless the intervention of God.

After the fall man no longer has free will. Free will is the power or capacity of humans to make decisions or perform actions independently of any prior event or prior state of the universe.
Not true. We have free will. We can make choices.

Don't you understand? We have already made our choice... Adam and Eve made the choice for us.
What? You didn't get a say? Sin already made that choice for you.

That's the problem with this forum and the two of you. You are simply looking for an argument. I'd like to stay on subject. is that ok? Soon (as always) the two of you will go off half-blistered on an entirely different tangent.You have made an accusation. I just want to know what you mean by it, or if you even know what you mean. But if it's going to make you angry, then just let it go.

@JL: I simply can't talk two different subjects to two different people.

Don't you understand? We have already made our choice... Adam and Eve made the choice for us.
What? You didn't get a say? Sin already made that choice for you. We were given a choice, we made our choice, and not to be given another choice.

A person might have to Woo God, it is all up to him now. It is God's choice who he wishes to spend all eternity with him in his World. God gave Man the Earth and everything in it. Man gave it over to sin and in turn death. Mans and his world are gonna die. Man can choose life. But it is the life of Christ that rules God's kingdom.

Don't you understand? We have already made our choice... Adam and Eve made the choice for us.
What? You didn't get a say? Sin already made that choice for you.
You can choose to shoot and kill your noisy neighbor. Or you can choose to sit down with him and discuss the situation. Two choices. You have the freedom, the free will, to choose one or the other. Or even think of a third or fourth choice.

Neither of you is making a appeal to Scripture.

Neither of you is making a appeal to Scripture.
Genesis 1-3

WG: Yes, you have Choice. God has no Choice!!!!

Those whom God chooses have no choice!

Take Mathew for instance; Jesus said; "come follow me." Do you actually think Mathew had a choice?
Why can you not see that free will was in effect before the fall. after the fall there is no more free will. we don't choose God, he chooses us.

The Human race had its chance and we lost it. We lost it All!

End of story.

JL, you missed the boat.

Ahhh...Walter is a Calvinist.

WG, just tossing a few chapters out there is not an appeal to scripture. You have to get more specific than that. Walter could appeal to a number of specific passages.

Ahhh...Walter is a Calvinist.
How did you find out ? Also, he's 23.

WG, just tossing a few chapters out there is not an appeal to scripture.
That's where this free will discussion started from.

@WG: Jesus was not capable of sinning. If Jesus was to sin, we would never know it as sin, because he is God and the life of God. Who's going to call what God does sin? would you dare?!? The fact that you miss that is everything.

WG, this is what I mean by being specific.

Galatians 5:13. You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love.

Paul certainly indicates that the Galatians had free will to choose to either indulge the flesh in foolishness or serve each other in love.

John 7:17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

Jesus here tells us that "anyone" can choose to do the will of God.


How did you find out ?

"Those whom God chooses have no choice!"

@WG: Jesus was not capable of sinning. If Jesus was to sin, we would never know it as sin, because he is God and the life of God. Who's going to call what God does sin? would you dare?!? The fact that you miss that is everything.
Jesus was true God and true man. Bring true man, He could choose to sin. And that's what gave Him the final victory over sin for us -- He never gave in to sin.

Satan even took Him into the wilderness and tempted Him (Matt. 4:1-11), hoping He would sin, but Jesus chose not to.

Satan even took Him into the wildernessYou are missing one key point. It was not Satan that led Jesus into the wilderness. It was only after Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit that he was led (by the Holy Spirit) into the wilderness to be tempted.
He could choose to sin. Yes he very well could have. But not once he was filled with the Holy Spirit.
That's what gave Him the final victory over sin for us -- He never gave in to sin.Do you even know what you are saying?

I pray hevenly Father, that you open WG's mind so that she might see the truth and the light of your everlasting Grace...Amen.


Satan even took Him into the wilderness and tempted Him (Matt. 4:1-11), hoping He would sin, but Jesus chose not to.
And that's what gave Him the final victory over sin for usNot exactly. Not for us...But for Sin itself. Otherwise what you are saying is; Humanity can overcome Sin by simply choosing not to give in to temptation. The fact of the matter is, that Jesus had to die in order for us to achieve final victory over sin. Jesus is teaching us how to die...he is not teaching us (so to speak) how to overcome sin, he has already done that, for us. Maybe he is teaching us how to become Christians.

The Temptation of Christ; Jesus defeated Sin (how...the Holy Scriptures)...The Word of God is true life and the word of Satan is death in sin. Proving that the Holy Scriptures are still intact and the exact representation of the body of Christ Jesus...unerring. Jesus is the living Word. And the Word became flesh. The Word of God is alive and well. Not Man nor Saten can come close to touching the Word of life (aka Bible/God). Did Satan Touch Jesus? I mean did Satan influence Jesus...The Word of God is untouchable...Sin can't touch it. The Bible is beyond error. You must believe that!

If the Bible is beyond error, then why is it you don't quote it? I'm sure you mean well, but your posts are along the lines of, "Thus sayeth Walter". At some point you must appeal to the Word. That is all that matters. What does the Bible teach us?

For instance, you posted, "Yes he very well could have (sinned). But not once he was filled with the Holy Spirit." But how do you know that is true? Is it just your own opinion, or does the Bible teach that? And I'm not saying you're wrong, but it leaves us hanging since it is unsupported by Scripture. For all we know, perhaps you are thinking with your carnal mind.

"Yes he very well could have (sinned).This was said for the sake of argument. For WG's benefit. I Don't believe he had any Sin in him, So he was incapable of sinning (although he did have choice...choice, meaning; he truly knew what sin is and who it cames from.).
But not once he was filled with the Holy Spirit.Because Jesus had two natures, neither of which consisted sin (after his death might be a different story?). I know it is true because the Holy Spirit can not sin. And if that same Spirit dwells in you, it (not so much you. having less of you and more of Jesus) will be considered (by God) as if you have never sinned. We know we are sinners. We, now, know that one day heaven will be full of sinners. When that day (whence we are in heaven) comes it will be different. Different in the way that - we will know of sin but are no longer sinners, taking on the mind (likeness) Of God, as if we have never sinned. all sin, all thought of sin, the sin nature will be nonexistent. nobody will know any different than God himself. You will have never known of yourself as a sinner. It might be as simple as us knowing we were once darkness and God has brought the light into our lives... to praise his name for all eternity, for the light of life that Jesus (as in God) has brought into our lives. It's almost as if God added to himself. He is now friends with the darkness (hello darkness my old friend).

The Bible mentions God as light, no darkness at all. But often times when God comes around, he is surrounded by darkness.
Darkness is as light to him. it seems that my Carnal mind might have gotten the better of me...I don't yet know for certain.

"Yes he very well could have (sinned). But not once he was filled with the Holy Spirit." But how do you know that is true? Is it just your own opinion, or does the Bible teach that?You are basically back to, "Thus sayeth Walter." Look at Peter's sermon in Acts 2. His appeal is to the Word. I would suggest you learn from Peter.

@JL, I don't follow?


God promised a Massiah. It is written. What has been written is solid and true.
There is no way Jesus would have turned to the dark side (as it were).

It's not as if Jesus entered the playing field and God had his fingers crossed, hoping Jesus would choose wisely. If You can think, all humanity as being of one Body...the body of Jesus. Without sin. Incapable of sin. "God prepared a body." in fact, I would go as far as to say all of creation is in one Body...one with God. In the body of God. It is as though God created himself. "His Word is higher than his name."

You do understand; all that we are living, all that is happening, all that is in time has already passed. It is done, finished. All those in Christ Jesus are on the other side, living with/in Jesus, praising God in/for eternity. God has spoken, "it is finished."

There is no way Jesus would have turned to the dark side (as it were).
Jesus was fully God and fully man. As a human, He was exposed to temptations just as we are. He overcame them, then was able to understand and identify with our struggles.

@JL, I don't follow?Evrything posted below is just opinion at this point. You can post no scripture at all to support any of your ideas. And I'm not saying I disagree with it. I'm just saying there is no Scripture other than, "It is finished." And that general statement does not demonstrate the truth of virtually anything you said. "His word is higher than His name," is not a quote from the Bible. Even if it was, it certainly does not show that God created Himself. It's just throwing a supposed text out there in hopes that it might prove...something.



God promised a Massiah. It is written. What has been written is solid and true.
There is no way Jesus would have turned to the dark side (as it were).

It's not as if Jesus entered the playing field and God had his fingers crossed, hoping Jesus would choose wisely. If You can think, all humanity as being of one Body...the body of Jesus. Without sin. Incapable of sin. "God prepared a body." in fact, I would go as far as to say all of creation is in one Body...one with God. In the body of God. It is as though God created himself. "His Word is higher than his name."

You do understand; all that we are living, all that is happening, all that is in time has already passed. It is done, finished. All those in Christ Jesus are on the other side, living with/in Jesus, praising God in/for eternity. God has spoken, "it is finished."

To illustrate, you said God promised a Messiah. To support that, I could turn to Genesis 3:15. "I will put hostility between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring. He will strike your head, and you will strike his heel."

Or Isaiah 53. He was despised and rejected by men,a man of suffering who knew what sickness was.
He was like someone people turned away from;[b (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+53&version=CSB#fen-CSB-18715b)]
he was despised, and we didn’t value him.

4 Yet he himself bore our sicknesses,
and he carried our pains;
but we in turn regarded him stricken,
struck down by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced because of our rebellion,
crushed because of our iniquities;
punishment for our peace was on him,
and we are healed by his wounds.
6 We all went astray like sheep;
we all have turned to our own way;
and the Lord has punished him
for[c (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+53&version=CSB#fen-CSB-18718c)] the iniquity of us all.

Just be aware that if you post anything WG disagrees with, she will dismiss it as "cherry-picking". That's her prerogative, but it still lends a lot of strength to your argument.

Just be aware that if you post anything WG disagrees with, she will dismiss it as "cherry-picking". That's her prerogative, but it still lends a lot of strength to your argument.
That's NOT what cherry-picking is! It has nothing to do with disagreeing. I'm shocked at your post!

I know what cherry-picking is. I once posted about 40 passages which all showed a coming judgment from God. It probably included more than a hundred verses. Your simplistic solution was to dismiss that tidal wave of Scripture as cherry-picking, thus showing that you didn't know what the term meant, or (more likely in my view) that you were willing to use it to try to dismiss a very clearly taught doctrine of the Bible with which you disagreed. And with that you certainly should be shocked.

I know what cherry-picking is. I once posted about 40 passages which all showed a coming judgment from God. It probably included more than a hundred verses. Your simplistic solution was to dismiss that tidal wave of Scripture as cherry-picking, thus showing that you didn't know what the term meant, or (more likely in my view) that you were willing to use it to try to dismiss a very clearly taught doctrine of the Bible with which you disagreed. And with that you certainly should be shocked.
Sooooo, your definition of cherry-picking is....

Cherry picking is when a person chooses a relative handful of textual examples which seem to support his/her assertion, but which present an understanding that does not agree with a great body of evidence which contradicts that idea. In other words, they are taken out of the greater context. Selecting dozens of examples can scarcely be referred to as "cherry picking". It is easy to refute that practice by simply appealing to many other passages which show a clearly different perspective.

Cherry picking is when a person chooses a relative handful of textual examples which seem to support his/her assertion, but which present an understanding that does not agree with a great body of evidence which contradicts that idea. In other words, they are taken out of the greater context. Selecting dozens of examples can scarcely be referred to as "cherry picking". It is easy to refute that practice by simply appealing to many other passages which show a clearly different perspective.
That's not what cherry-picking is.

@JL - I understand what you are getting at. You are really good at quoting Bible verses, what good has it done for WG? I could Quote Bible verses all day long (if I research and find. I know it is in there) and she still wouldn't believe. It is clear to me that WG doesn't believe the Bible is inerrant. As well as her belief that God is fallible.

It makes no sense. We understand Adam and Eve as having "free will" before the fall...that is perfectly clear. After the Fall there is no more "free will." Adam's "Free will" was spent....along with all of humanity's supposed free will. People ask (they don't understand) how did Adam ruin it for all of us. Or, I had no choice, I was born in sin. Yes, that is right. We have no choice being that Adam chose sin over life. To this day some people choose sin over life...how can that be? Well, I wasn't given a chance to choose, no you weren't, and neither was I. Salvation was for the Jew. Thank God for mercy, he provided for the gentile as well. Not that we chose him, but he chose to include us. Yes WG, we have a choice, we can choose either or, but it's not that simple (had Adam chosen wisely, it might have remained as simple as a choice between doing good or bad) anymore. Choosing only gets a person so far. Believing is the real clincher. It's not up to you. You don't have to choose. You're lost if you believe it comes down to [your] choice.

Most of what I say is adlib. It should be considered for cause. The premise is true though. God created the entire universe and everything in it, you don't think he knows Sin? Jesus knew sin the same as God (wholly and entirely). Do you actually think Jesus could ever want a taste of sin? It would have been impossible for Jesus to sin. He picked up sin held it in the palm of his hand and rendered it irrelevant. Sin is no longer an issue.

You two go off on your little tangent. I've said enough.
Bye for now.

Only Jesus knows.

@JL - I understand what you are getting at. You are really good at quoting Bible verses, what good has it done for WG? I could Quote Bible verses all day long (if I research and find. I know it is in there) and she still wouldn't believe. It is clear to me that WG doesn't believe the Bible is inerrant. As well as her belief that God is fallible.
You make me laugh. I've had over 50 more years of Bible study than you have -- Christian grade school, two Christian colleges, neighborhood Bible studies, Sunday School and Bible class (as a student and later as a teacher), plus being a PK. It's interesting to read what Bible-believers say about someone they don't like.

And yes, Jesus could have sinned. After all, He was fully human as well as fully divine.

And yes, Jesus could have sinned. After all, He was fully human as well as fully God.I'll put it to you in a different way; Could the Messiah have ever sinned - ["yes."] God promised a savior that was without sin, aka Messiah. Are you saying God is a liar? If God promised a savior without sin, that savior would be sinless, meaning it would have been impossible for Jesus, the messiah to sin. Or you might just think God makes promises and simply rolls the dice hoping somebody would come along, that he could use, and be faithful and not sin.
Somebody they don't like.Who on here is not to like?

That's not what cherry-picking is.Sorry, but it is.

Walter, I get your point about quoting the Bible not being persuasive with some people. I have just gotten into that habit for three reasons. 1. It's an appeal to the best source possible. 2. It does sway some people. 3. It helps me understand my own POV better.

Walter, I get your point about quoting the Bible not being persuasive with some people. I have just gotten into that habit for three reasons. 1. It's an appeal to the best source possible. 2. It does sway some people. 3. It helps me understand my own POV better.
Now, please do some Bible quoting to set waltero straight, especially regarding Post #147.

The phrase "even the stones would cry out" is a biblical reference from Luke 19:40. Jesus used this phrase to tell his disciples that if they were to keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out. By this expression, Jesus meant that it was impossible for it to be otherwise.
Don't you get it? If it is written then even the stones would cry out.

I'd ask A few questions, but I know WG doesn't answer questions being that she feels she'd be getting set up.

WG, Why would you consider my statement (having to do with your belief) to be directed toward hatred? You just stated that Jesus/God was subject to sin. and you have always claimed that man has interfered with Bible text. So why be bothered by such a statement?

The phrase "even the stones would cry out" is a biblical reference from Luke 19:40. Jesus used this phrase to tell his disciples that if they were to keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out. By this expression, Jesus meant that it was impossible for it to be otherwise.
Don't you get it? If it is written then even the stones would cry out.
You misunderstand that passage.


I'd ask A few questions, but I know WG doesn't answer questions being that she feels she'd be getting set up.
Ask away!


WG, Why would you consider my statement (having to do with your belief) to be directed toward hatred?
Hatred? I never said that.


You just stated that Jesus/God was subject to sin. and you have always claimed that man has interfered with Bible text. So why be bothered by such a statement?
Huh? I said "man has interfered with Bible text"?

I'd ask A few questions, but I know WG doesn't answer questions being that she feels she'd be getting set up.Just about right.


Now, please do some Bible quoting to set waltero straight, especially regarding Post #147.Here's the post.


I'll put it to you in a different way; Could the Messiah have ever sinned - ["yes."] God promised a savior that was without sin, aka Messiah. Are you saying God is a liar? If God promised a savior without sin, that savior would be sinless, meaning it would have been impossible for Jesus, the messiah to sin. Or you might just think God makes promises and simply rolls the dice hoping somebody would come along, that he could use, and be faithful and not sin.That's actually quite a dilemma. Could the Son of God have sinned? I don't think so, but I've never really studied it.

Just about right.
Getting set up isn't the problem.

You picked this horse. Now you got to ride it.
Am watching the new cartoon on Fox, "Krapopolis". Will delve into this after the cartoon is over.

Getting set up isn't the problem.I think it is. You see a danger in answering honestly and so you just avoid it.

I think it is. You see a danger in answering honestly and so you just avoid it.
Not at all. I just get tired of being attacked every time I respond. I'm guessing it's because I'm female and "don't know my place".

No reason to insult. Let's just put our heads together and stay on/discuss the topic.

Not at all. I just get tired of being attacked every time I respond.No one is attacking you, but we do probe as we certainly should. You should as well. That's how discussions are done.


I'm guessing it's because I'm female and "don't know my place".Or maybe it's because that on those occasions when you do answer, your answers warrant further questioning. Might add that you have no idea how tired we men get at having to read that kind of thinking.


No reason to insult. Let's just put our heads together and stay on/discuss the topic.No reason to insult? You mean like, "Like that peanut butter commercial, you're full of it like Ludacris is."

The topic is shoved aside while I am put down, am scolded, am insulted.

Ludacrus is full of Jif.

Show me an example of when that has happened.

is it possible that it’s your reasoning and thinking that are being questioned?