I don't know how many times I've heard; that's the old testament, we don't go by the old testament anymore! That is the Old Testament, that's an allegory, That doesn't apply, etc.


Not from me or anyone else here, you haven't. I repeat: You pulled all of this out of your own head.




The "Greek" IS the Bible -
it's more the Bible than your English version
Here's the question: is this quote from DW an anachronism? In other words, If DW is right, where does that leave us?


I don't understand the question.

jlisenbe, this thing is being weird. You asked about Fee's book. Here's the reply I tried to give.

It's a good resource. A little dated now, but still useful. I have a lot of respect for Gordon Fee.

I am convinced there is an underlying reason why this question was brought up using the greek.

Yes. It's because that's what I was reading. No other reason, so please get off that kick.


I have never come across, "todays greek reading," regarding a Bible passage before

And maybe if you had asked me what I meant by that, you might have learned that I keep my Greek New Testament handy in a certain very useful room, and when I need to spend time in that room, I pick up my Greek New Testament and read some of it. Since my trips to that room tend to be as regular as an atomic clock, I do some reading every day. Hence, "today's Greek reading."

ASK, dude. This is called "Ask Me Help Desk" so try asking more and assuming less.


@DW, You might be focusing on a particular (Greek/Hebrew), and missing the whole. There is no such distinction drawn in the bible itself. The Bible comes to us and offers itself as a whole.

Tell me you don't know the history of the Bible without telling me you don't know the history of the Bible. What Bible did Jesus use? Paul? James? Peter? How did the New Testament come to us? Until you know the answers to these questions thoroughly, you don't get to try and lecture me.


Mormons read the Bible (but the Book of Mormon comes first). Witnesses read the Bible but understand many teachings in a different way. WG has been part of a major conservative Christian denomination, as both student and teacher, most of her life.

Both groups also made their own translations that are skewed to support their particular doctrines.

Both groups also made their own translations that are skewed to support their particular doctrines.Very true. The New World Translation for the JW's is really slanted.

If you find a particular part in the [greek] NT that you find confusing. Then maybe it would be a good idea to open it up for discussion while accepting the whole. It is important in these matters that we should start with the Whole, and not with certain parts.

That doesn't make sense. If I find a particular part confusing, why wouldn't I start with that part? I have no idea what you are trying to say.

No, you don't. You just need to read the answer that has already been posted.Exactly. I don't need to read the Answer (and where do I find that?) that some of you might have posted. The [true] Answer doesn't come to me by way of the NT or Greek, or from this thread.

Here we come full circle;

We go from this.

"Wait. WHO is in charge??"
perplexed by:

Today's Greek reading
understanding it to be:

Are you referring to the process of organizing thoughts and ideas within some established framework
in light of:

puts a very different spin on things
bringing us back to:

"who is the actual authority"
conclusion:

"I never said it was "The Bible" or any of the rest."

This entire thread comes full circle; Authority of the Bible. I have to wonder why nobody wants to touch on this subject. You keep diverting (as always) from the subject matter?


The "Greek" IS the Bible -
it's more the Bible than your English version
Here's the question: is this quote from DW an anachronism? In other words, If DW is right, where does that leave us?
I don't understand the question.
If greek (something belonging or appropriate to a period other than that in which it exists) is the Bible and We don't understand Greek, where does that put us? One of us is right, we can't both be right.


Sure, you're welcome to interject greek into the OT (making it the whole Bible) as well...doesn't prevent the fact that man (no matter what language) is still ill-equipped to understand the Bible? Too many Christians think the Bible can be argued, making a believer, or feel they need defend the Bible...doesn't work that way.

The whole purpose of language is to communicate meaning about the world around us. A person doesn't come to know Truth or faith by reading the Bible in Greek, any more than those who haven't read the Bible at all.

The whole purpose of language is to communicate meaning about the world around us. A person doesn't come to know Truth or faith, by reading the Bible in Greek or otherwise, any more than those who haven't read the Bible at all.

This entire thread comes full circle; Authority of the Bible.The Bible is completely sufficient as the ultimate authority for a Christian in all matters of faith and practice.


If greek (something belonging or appropriate to a period other than that in which it exists) is the Bible and We don't understand Greek, where does that put us?Already answered in post 239. It's why I say it would be helpful if you would start carefully reading the responses we are giving you. We are in the glorious position of having quite a number of exceptionally well translated English versions of the Bible, a position which has existed since the 1611 translation of the King James Bible and, to be accurate, even a few decades prior to that date.


jlisenbe, this thing is being weird. You asked about Fee's book. Here's the reply I tried to give.
It's a good resource. A little dated now, but still useful. I have a lot of respect for Gordon Fee.I've enjoyed it so far. I heard him preach a few times in Bible College. He's a very thoughtful person.

If greek (something belonging or appropriate to a period other than that in which it exists) is the Bible and We don't understand Greek, where does that put us? One of us is right, we can't both be right.
Greek is a language. The New Testament was originally written in Greek. People learn the Greek language so they can read the NT as it was first written.

I Corinthians 13:4 in Greek:

καὶ γὰρ εἴ ἐσταυρώθη ἐξ ἀσθενείας ἀλλὰ ζῇ ἐκ δυνάμεως θεοῦ καὶ γὰρ ἡμεῖς ἀσθενοῦμεν ἐν αὐτῷ ἀλλὰ ζήσομεθα σὺν αὐτῷ ἐκ δυνάμεως θεοῦ εἰς ὑμᾶς

Too many Christians think the Bible can be argued, making a believer, or feel they need defend the Bible...doesn't work that way.But that's exactly what you're doing.

@JL, maybe if you were to read my posts as a whole and not dissect and try to pick apart. You mentioned earlier; "does that mean that Greek philosophy or western Phyisoephy influences our perception of the Bible? Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.
But that's exactly what you're doingI'm trying to learn. I am not arguing. You've already learned your truth. You have no idea what I'm talking about. So why would you assume I am arguing the Bible? It is all, you baby!


The Bible is completely sufficient as the ultimate authority for a Christian in all matters of faith and practice.that explains nothing. You still get to decide what you believe...in the way that you believe.
That doesn't make sense. If I find a particular part confusing, why wouldn't I start with that part? I have no idea what you are trying to say.I'm still trying to understand it myself. It's late. I will make an attempt later. The fact of the matter is, that you already knew the Answer to your Question, before asking it. It has everything to do with your original question = Authority. The Authority of the Bible.
If you don't read the NT, where does the "[true] Answer" come from?well it comes from the Greek don't yah know ;-P

Night.

Exactly. I don't need to read the Answer (and where do I find that?) that some of you might have posted. The [true] Answer doesn't come to me by way of the NT or Greek, or from this thread.
If you don't read the NT, where does the "[true] Answer" come from?

This entire thread comes full circle; Authority of the Bible. I have to wonder why nobody wants to touch on this subject.

Because it has nothing to do with the topic I raised. I asked a specific question about a specific passage, to be sure I'm not reading something into it. You have tried to hijack my thread and turn it into...I have no idea what. I have no clue what kind of bee is in your bonnet. But the authority of the Bible has nothing at all to do with the topic I raised.

Please stop trying to change the subject. If you don't have anything to contribute to my question, please refrain from comment. Because so far, nothing you have said has anything to do with my question. Please stop hijacking.

If you don't read the NT, where does the "[true] Answer" come from?Maybe the OT? The answer came before the Question...that's why it is important to look at the Whole of the Bible.

Not a question of Authority?
Wait. WHO is in charge??

Today's Greek reading brought me to something I never noticed before. In Luke 4:5 Satan says HE has authority over the nations/kingdoms of the Earth and they're his to give to whomever he chooses. Not God, Satan.

That kind of puts a very different spin on things when someone says "God put so and so in that office". Sounds like maybe it was the other guy?????

I haven't seen a single commentary tackle this question. I confess I've been reading that passage since I was 4 years old and never noticed this before. Anybody have any thoughts on it?
and Except Jesus didn't contradict him. He only addressed the question of worship.


The whole "look around you" misses the question. It's not "what's going on," it's "who is the actual authority over this world and the nations that muck it up?"The Whole "Look around you"- Is the Answer to your question. That's why it's important to look at the question using the Whole of the Bible, not just the greek...You missed your own question! you missed the Question as well as any answer you were looking for...we know this because of your rejection of OT scripture (more than 3 were posted).
Because it [Authority] has nothing to do with the topic I raised. Really, REALLY!
That doesn't make sense. If I find a particular part confusing, why wouldn't I start with that part? I have no idea what you are trying to say.Because you deny it has anything to do with "the Authority" of the Entirety of Scriptures.
Please stop trying to change the subjectThe greek rising up once again?
Because so far, nothing you have said has anything to do with my questionAnd there you have it. Denial of the OT Scriptures, that were brought up. whether it be me or the OT scriptures, that brought them up! That's exactly what I'm talking about. you lack faith brother...faith in the Scriptures. it might be better if you discard the Greek for the time being.
why wouldn't I start with that part? Because it simply ends up being an argument. Wasting the entire time with a particular, instead of coming under the Authority of the Scriptures.

There are certain advantages for a believer wanting to study Greek. Greek should not be used having a desire to "Marshall the Scripture," - As you, all are doing at this moment. Not saying it starts out with that desire, but it certainly can end up that way...without even knowing it...kinda like a Politician, they might start out good and Honest, but they all end up crooked and corrupt. I'm not saying that you are any of those. You can hop into any religious (or other) topic on this Forum and see that this very thing is the usual. Always an argument ensues. Your denial of Human interpretation not being with believers' understanding of the Scriptures is disturbing.

It's 100% a matter having to do with "the Authority of the Bible"!
Don't be a denier of "the Authority of the Bible."

I'm trying to learn. I am not arguing. You've already learned your truth. You have no idea what I'm talking about. So why would you assume I am arguing the Bible? It is all, you baby!Of course you are arguing. How ridiculous to suggest you are not.

Honestly, I don't know what your objection is. People here have patiently answered your questions. It seems to come down to, "It's 100% a matter having to do with "the Authority of the Bible! Don't be a denier of "the Authority of the Bible." Well, no one here has denied the authority of the Bible. DW's original question had nothing to do with the authority of the Bible, and everything to do with wanting to understand the meaning of a Bible passage.

So what is your objection?

DW, Quote:
"who is the actual authority over this world and the nations that muck it up?"
Satan says HE has authority I understand that DW is not asking or looking for an answer to this question - having an unwilling faith in the Authority of the Scriptures...I've been telling you from the start, that this question is under false pretense. He is not being honest with himself, in the sense that he doesn't understand the true "Authority of the Scriptures"...asking - "who is the actual authority over this world and the nations that muck it up?" He is asking from a Human point of view, looking for a flesh-driven answer. That comes from his knowledge in the Greeks. If "Greek is the Bible" then go ahead and produce whatever Answer fits your fancy. You are welcome to bring in the NT, but you can't gain a full understanding...being that it is you who has ultimate "Authority of the "Bible."
Well, no one here has denied the authority of the Bible.Yet we get this from you:
DW's original question had nothing to do with the authority of the BibleNo, really? Have none of you denied the Authority of the Bible? You're doing it right now. In fact, you do it "every time" (no joke) your Bible is brought up, on this site...I say "your B.i.b.l.e" because I believe the Bible for you is a simple acronym. You have no faith in its authority... that's why it always ends up going to argument...it's simply a book of instructions for you. And with all instruction books, errata is included. You're not finding the Errata? it is only found in the Spirit.


So what is your objection? You are seeking Answers when you should be seeking the Kingdom of heaven that is within you. The entire Question that was posted here has to do with the Flesh. And you all are looking for Answers, given to you by your flesh.

We have evidence that all that passed in the Temptation was in the region of which the spirit, and not the senses, takes cognizance...and the question here has "nothing to do with "the Authority of the Bible!" That is where you're Wrong. Have to wonder why you are so afraid to understand the Authority of the Bible and what it entails?

@JL; The Answer to your Question Earlier; Old testament = Body. New testament = Life:

Has to do with Solomon's Question in Ecclesiastes. All is vanity under the Sun.
It's clear to me Solomon was with Question; Was there life before Death? The answer is NO (OT was Body/Death). NT - Jesus/life; Not until Jesus Lived "his" life did Jesus Bring life in our lives (before death), and that same Life is the only life after death...Fire away!
Of course you are arguingMany times I have come on this site to further educate myself. Then I find myself lost in a world of argument. That is when I know it's time to back off. Arguing the Bible is Moot, it amounts to nothing and is very detrimental.

I was simply Trying to Touch on the true (Authority of the Bible) subject matter that this post was inferring. Who knew, when DW was Asking; "who is the actual authority" that he wasn't talking about the Bible...oh wait, I knew, hmm? You all seem to have it already figured out...yet argument continues to ensue. It's clear.

DW, Quote: I understand that DW is not asking or looking for an answer to this question - having an unwilling faith in the Authority of the Scriptures...
DW asked a question in the beginning of this thread in order to encourage discussion on the very neglected Christianity board. I've known him for years. He DOES NOT have "an unwilling faith in the Authority of the Scriptures". The exact opposite is true.

So what is your objection?


You are seeking Answers when you should be seeking the Kingdom of heaven that is within you. OK. How do you do that? Does the Bible enter into the "seeking"?


We have evidence that all that passed in the Temptation was in the region of which the spirit, and not the senses, takes cognizanceThat's just not true. The five senses were very much in operation the entire time. Certainly sight and hearing played into the conversation heavily. Perhaps I'm just not getting what your point is?


Has to do with Solomon's Question in Ecclesiastes. All is vanity under the Sun.
It's clear to me Solomon was with Question; Was there life before Death? The answer is NO (OT was Body/Death). NT - Jesus/life; Not until Jesus Lived "his" life did Jesus Bring life in our lives (before death), and that same Life is the only life after death...Fire away!Completely nonsensical.

Not until Jesus Lived "his" life did Jesus Bring life in our lives (before death), and that same Life is the only life after death.That section is actually pretty good, but no one here that I know of has said otherwise, have they?

I understand that DW is not asking or looking for an answer to this question - having an unwilling faith in the Authority of the Scriptures..

You understand absolutely nothing. You have no clue what you are jabbering about, you are constantly misrepresenting me, not to say lying about me, you refuse to take instruction and hide your head in the sand of "authority of the Bible". As JL pointed out, nobody here has denied it. You claim we have, even though we have all explicitly said we acknowledge it.

You want to redefine everything, including "authority of the Bible" to suit your own wants. You don't get to do that. I don't know who you think you are, but you don't get to do that. You don't have the least idea what you are trying to assert, and you're pulling it all out of your where-you-weren't-looking.

Just stop it. Accusing me of "having an unwilling faith in the Authority of the Scriptures" (what does that even mean? Nothing.) is a LIE, and I'm calling you out on your LIE.

STOP LYING ABOUT ME. You haven't the faintest idea what I have done for the past 50 years defending and refining the thing you accuse me of not having. You are a liar and it's my opinion that if you continue to be unteachable and lie about people, maybe you should leave.

I speak only for myself, lest anyone presume.

Walter said, "You are seeking Answers when you should be seeking the Kingdom of heaven that is within you." I replied, "OK. How do you do that? Does the Bible enter into the seeking?"

I hope he will answer that question.

Most of the time it is relatively easy to figure out what it is that drives some of the contentious posting that happens here. Not with Walter. I still don't know what he seems to be irritated about.

But I do hope Walter continues to post. Maybe we just need to change the subject.

Today's Greek reading brought me to something I never noticed before. In Luke 4:5 Satan says HE has authority over the nations/kingdoms of the Earth and they're his to give to whomever he chooses. Not God, Satan.
Because it has nothing to do with the topic I raised. I asked a specific question about a specific passage, to be sure I'm not reading something into it.
DW's original question had nothing to do with the authority
You're looking in the wrong direction. To be sure, you are "reading something into it". I think it has more to do with Pride...using the greek, as if it is to be considered more profound (being from the Greek) than meets the eye. Many of you are stuck here trying to work out your arguments. It's not as simple as learning the greek in order to - Marshal the word!

Read your Post again:
Why do you refuse to believe that this question has absolutely nothing to do with "Authority"?
Not only that, but You all seem furious that this thread should move in the direction of Authority.
How often do these posts stay on topic? Why so Angry?


That doesn't make sense. If I find a particular part confusing, why wouldn't I start with that part? I have no idea what you are trying to say. You have no idea because you are far too intelligent for your own good.

Walter, why are you avoiding questions? I'll repost them.


So what is your objection?


You are seeking Answers when you should be seeking the Kingdom of heaven that is within you.


OK. How do you do that? Does the Bible enter into the "seeking"?



We have evidence that all that passed in the Temptation was in the region of which the spirit, and not the senses, takes cognizance



That's just not true. The five senses were very much in operation the entire time. Certainly sight and hearing played into the conversation heavily. Perhaps I'm just not getting what your point is?



Has to do with Solomon's Question in Ecclesiastes. All is vanity under the Sun.
It's clear to me Solomon was with Question; Was there life before Death? The answer is NO (OT was Body/Death). NT - Jesus/life; Not until Jesus Lived "his" life did Jesus Bring life in our lives (before death), and that same Life is the only life after death...Fire away!


Completely nonsensical in supposing you know that Solomon was asking about life before death. There is just nothing there at all to indicate that.

You're looking in the wrong direction. To be sure, you are "reading something into it". I think it has more to do with Pride...using the greek, as if it is to be considered more profound (being from the Greek) than meets the eye. Many of you are stuck here trying to work out your arguments. It's not as simple as learning the greek in order to - Marshal the word!

So many words, so little meaning. I still have no idea what your point is. Since I'm the one who raised the question, I suspect I understand the "direction" better than you, as an outsider who doesn't live in my head, ever will.


You have no idea because you are far too intelligent for your own good.

Thank you. I'll take that as a compliment.

You [dwashbur] have no idea because you are far too intelligent for your own good.
I've known him for years. God has richly blessed him with excellent cognitive skills that have served us well on this site (and on others)!

It's not as simple as learning the greek in order to - Marshal the word!

Actually it is very important to harken back to and read something in the original language. Words can be mistranslated and skipped over by translators. I learned that when taking three years of Latin in high school and also learned that from my German-speaking grandparents.

Words can be mistranslated and skipped over by translators. That's true, but far more frequently we see amateurs who mistranslate words because of their religious and societal prejudices rather than for any truly honest reason.

That's true, but far more frequently we see amateurs who mistranslate words because of their religious and societal prejudices rather than for any truly honest reason.
As was the case with some of the ancient (and even current) Bible translators who had/have an agenda.

Wondergirl
Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
That's true, but far more frequently we see amateurs who mistranslate words because of their religious and societal prejudices rather than for any truly honest reason.
As was the case with some of the ancient (and even current) Bible translators who had/have an agenda.

That's the beauty of having who knows how many translations. Even those without language training can compare them side by side, word by word if necessary, and determine to a large degree what the text says. I make no secret of the fact that one has to be a little warped to get into the language stuff as excitedly as I do, but even the non-warped have resources at their fingertips now that people two generations ago would have sacrificed their pinky toes to possess. In particular, computer Bible programs such as Logos make it possible for anybody to look up almost anything and have a fair idea that what they're reading is reliable.

I would rather see six bad translations countered by sixty good translations, because with careful comparison the person in the pew can determine what constitutes a bad translation. That excites me almost as much as coming across a Hebrew word I don't remember seeing before.

That's the beauty of having who knows how many translations. Even those without language training can compare them side by side, word by word if necessary, and determine to a large degree what the text says. I make no secret of the fact that one has to be a little warped to get into the language stuff as excitedly as I do, but even the non-warped have resources at their fingertips now that people two generations ago would have sacrificed their pinky toes to possess. In particular, computer Bible programs such as Logos make it possible for anybody to look up almost anything and have a fair idea that what they're reading is reliable.Wonderful observation. Biblegateway.com, for instance, can easily arrange five different translations of the same passage side by side. Strong's Concordance can be very helpful. Biblehub.com has an interlinear translation that is keyed to the SC. The list goes on and on. The person to beware of is the one who makes an appeal to a particular translation of a word or words that is basically unsupported by no modern translation at all, but because of the plethora of good translations we have, such error is easy to see fairly quickly.

Wonderful observation. Biblegateway.com, for instance, can easily arrange five different translations of the same passage side by side. Strong's Concordance can be very helpful. Biblehub.com has an interlinear translation that is keyed to the SC. The list goes on and on. The person to beware of is the one who makes an appeal to a particular translation of a word or words that is basically unsupported by no modern translation at all, but because of the plethora of good translations we have, such error is easy to see fairly quickly.

Yes. There's also blueletterbible and many others. I would only offer one caution, and that's placing too much faith in Strong's dictionary. The cross-reference numbers are one of the handiest things ever, and lots of resources are keyed to those numbers for easy reference. But the dictionary definitions themselves are often...how shall I put it? Over-doctrinal, over-translated, and sometimes just plain wrong. Considering it's about 150 years old and we've learned a bit more since then, it's understandable. But I see too many people look up Strong's definition and stop there. Ya don't wanna do that. Keep digging.

Very true. Even more of a problem is when you key a word in Strong's dictionary and see that it has several potential meanings, some of which are significantly different from the others. I have seen people just pick out the one they like the most as opposed to any serious consideration of which definition is the most appropriate. For those of us not really conversant with Greek/Hebrew, just looking at several reputable translations is probably the best approach. Just my opinion.

jlisenbe
Very true. Even more of a problem is when you key a word in Strong's dictionary and see that it has several potential meanings, some of which are significantly different from the others. I have seen people just pick out the one they like the most as opposed to any serious consideration of which definition is the most appropriate. For those of us not really conversant with Greek/Hebrew, just looking at several reputable translations is probably the best approach. Just my opinion.

For sure. If the dictionary says it means "up" but also means "down" what's a reader to do? Context is everything. If the context requires a meaning "up", it's possible to just arbitrarily say "No, I think it means down in this spot" but if I can make it stick at all it'll only be with a select few people who hang on my every word (i.e. my kids). Those choices are easy. When it could mean "up" or possibly "up at an angle" or "up a certain amount" or "up and then immediately down again", that's not so easy. That's where comparing translations comes in.

For the more adventurous, there are a few more advanced tools that are keyed to Strong's numbers, such as Thayer' Greek Lexicon and Gesenius' Hebrew Lexicon. Both are quite old and in the public domain, which is why publishers can do that. But in truth, they won't steer people too far wrong as long as they aren't used slavishly. The nice thing about them is, they put definitions in the immediate context of a verse. So Thayer's might say "In passages A B and C it means 'up' but in passages X Y and Z it means 'down'." That at least gives one a decent starting point for sorting out individual words. Now, some of the Greek letters and such may look familiar, but Hebrew? Allow me to quote an Episcopal priest I met once. Imagine this sentence in a deep, James Earl Jones voice, with a heavy Australian accent.

"The first time I saw Hebrew I said, this isn't even a language. Somebody cut up a bunch of worms and smashed them between the pages."

The non-warped reader will do well to ignore the worms.

Having said that, those tools have their biases, too. My all time favorite is in Genesis 1:2, where most of the Hebrew lexicons want to take what we know as "The Spirit of God", *ruakh Elohim*, and render it "a mighty wind". I wish I was making that up. The main thing to bear in mind is, the majority of these tools weren't made by people who have a high view of Scripture. So given the choice between the Spirit of God and a mighty wind, one's theology is going to color one's choice. On both sides. It's just a question of what makes more sense in the context. I've seen a lot of mighty winds, but I've never seen one brooding. Nearly all these guys were European, mostly German, so maybe the wind acts differently over there...

All well said and taken. Still, Strong's can have its place. When I was in Bible College, there was a teacher who emphasized that logos means the written word and rhema means the spoken word. His point was that we should listen for God to speak to us. It took about five minutes in Strong's to see that he was really not right in his handling of the two Greek words. Rhema often does refer to a spoken word, but to confine logos to the written word (especially as the Bible) is not wise nor correct. So Strong's can frequently have a quite useful function.

I'm delighted to hear that. It's one of the most useful tools ever created, and as more resources get keyed to the numbers, it becomes even more useful.
I've never actually used it to any degree, but again, I'm more than a little warped.

And it's all in the public domain which is great. We are living in the absolute golden age of Bible translations. Scholars such as you no longer need to travel to see manuscripts. They are largely photographed and available to see online. Amazing.

Warped can sometimes be a good thing.

jlisenbe
And it's all in the public domain which is great. We are living in the absolute golden age of Bible translations. Scholars such as you no longer need to travel to see manuscripts. They are largely photographed and available to see online. Amazing.

When I was finishing my BA in 1981 in Fort Wayne, Indiana, I discovered that a nearby Lutheran school had a copy of the original photographic edition of Codex Sinaiticus. I spent six months and who knows how many nickels photocopying as much of it as I could. I love living in the Age Of Instant Information.

I love living in the Age Of Instant Information.So very true. Of course the problem has arisen that it is probably easier to put out poor quality information than to put out high quality info, so we still have to pay due diligence.

Yes.
The best thing about the Internet is, it gives everybody an equal voice.
The worst thing about the Internet is, it gives everybody an equal voice.

Well said.

I have a question for you. In Philippians we are told to let our requests be known unto God, τῇ προσευχῇ καὶ τῇ δεήσει. It's generally translated, "by prayer and supplication." How is προσευχῇ different from δεήσει?

And one more. In Luke 10:2 we are told to δεήθητε to the Lord of the Harvest to send laborers into the field. How is δεήθητε different from other prayers?

jlisenbe
Well said.

I have a question for you. In Philippians we are told to let our requests be known unto God, τῇ προσευχῇ καὶ τῇ δεήσει. It's generally translated, "by prayer and supplication." How is προσευχῇ different from δεήσει?

Different in connotation, yes. προσευχῇ (proseukhē for those who don't read the script) is a generalized term that includes worship, supplication, adoration, general conversation, any type of talking with God. I consider it along the lines of the running conversation I have with Jesus that goes on all day when people think I'm talking to myself.

Anyway, deēsis (the dictionary form of δεήσει) is more narrow and specific. It's a request, asking for something, seeking help, that sort of thing.

There are a few more words that refer to prayer, some have special connotations like this, while others are just different words for the same thing, sort of like English "car" vs. "automobile". The biggest difference between them is the spelling.

These two, however, do carry senses of meaning that complement each other.


And one more. In Luke 10:2 we are told to δεήθητε to the Lord of the Harvest to send laborers into the field. How is δεήθητε different from other prayers?

See above.

I've always wanted to say that...

"See above. I've always wanted to say that..." That made me laugh. Already today I have helped someone reach a goal!

If I understand correctly, δεήθητε and δεήσει come basically from same root, and thus have the same approximate meaning?

Thanks for the answers.

Correct. The former is a verb form, the latter is a noun. "I'm asking" vs. "I'm making a request."

Putting Ego aside for a moment, please.

Quote: dwashbur

It's not "what's going on, it's who is the actual authority

Since I'm the one who raised the question, I suspect I understand the "direction" better than you
I'm still sorting out what the rest of the questions are, never mind finding answers yet. Are you really being honest here...What are you looking for?


"I understand the "direction" better than you" - Don't you see that - you (possibly the greek?) are the one who’s getting in your own way.

Are you really being honest here...What are you looking for?How many times do you go down that rabbit trail? Rather than questioning motives, also known as judging, why don't you simply contribute to the discussion? I gotta tell, most of the time no one here has much idea of what you are trying to say.

I have been speaking very few words.

Instead of trying to understand what it is, I am trying to say - why don't you read the Quotes above and try to understand what DW is saying?

Instead of trying to understand what it is, I am trying to say - why don't you read the Quotes above and try to understand what DW is saying?

Okay, I'll bite. What is I saying?

Instead of trying to understand what it is, I am trying to sayBecause I am replying to your comments. Do you not want your own beliefs to be understood???

Besides, I pretty well understand where DW is going with his comments. I don't have any questions there. It seems to me that he has been pretty clear. And I'm not trying to be hard on you. It is very difficult to follow your train of thought.

Here is a question for you:
who is the actual authorityMight have something doing with Authority?
It has absolutely nothing to do with Authority!!! No, I think it might have something to do with the Authority of the Bible/Holy Spirit.
It has absolutely nothing to do with authority...never mind finding answers yet. not open to receive?
I'm still sorting out what the rest of the questions are...but know, it has nothing to do with Authority! Need to research the greek before one's intellect can process a full understanding?
Since I'm the one who raised the question
I understand better than you...
You are not willing to take instructions. We are trying to teach you.



Do you not want your own beliefs to be understood??? NO!
In actuality, what you are asking is; Do you not want us to work out a proper understanding for you, of your own beliefs? No thanks. But thanks for asking.

When asking a question about; "who is the actual authority" - then to say; Nothing doing with Authority???

The "Question" posted in this thread was given under false pretense...no matter what "direction" you decide to take..."Who is in Charge"...you are in Charge. You've made that abundantly clear. You are in Control of your own understanding...I don't think that is a good thing, being that you are a mere human.

NO!
In actuality, what you are asking is; Do you not want us to work out a proper understanding for you, of your own beliefs? I asked, "Do you not want your own beliefs to be understood?" How that somehow, in your mind, morphed into, "Do you not want us to work out a proper understanding for you, of your own beliefs?" is just beyond me. That was not the intent at all.

Are you really saying you don't want your own beliefs to be understood?

That was not the intent at all Yet, that is what goes on in these here parts.

We are not (maybe it's just me) dealing with "one's own beliefs" as it were.
why don't you simply contribute to the discussion?I don't think in "the greek." Greek is not where it's at. You have proven my understanding of where the two of you are at.

There is no question here. The two of you are simply trying to expound on the Greek...in the guise of a question.

How else can you explain: Question - Who is in Charge? - who is the actual authority??? Suggestion; Should we look at "the Authority of the Bible/Spirit"? - Response: Walteroo, You refuse to learn or take instruction...It has nothing to do with Authority!

Then we have; "I'm still sorting out what the rest of the questions are, never mind finding answers."
When it was previously stated; You don't even understand the Question.

And you want to talk to me about confusion??? I know what's going on here. I have been telling you from the beginning. The more DW talks the more he proves himself to be in error.


Besides, I pretty well understand where DW is going with his comments. I don't have any questions there. It seems to me that he has been pretty clear. Yes. It is pretty clear to me too. Posing a question - in an attempt to Educate, those of us (who will listen) on your superior Intellect.

Sorry - We Don't come to a proper understanding of Scripture by way of intellect...we are ill-equipped...it can't be done. It comes through Power in Authority...that which, your, Greek does not possess!

There is no question here. The two of you are simply trying to expound on the Greek...in the guise of a question.My ability to "expound" on the Greek is limited in the extreme. It's challenging enough to expound in the English.


Yes. It is pretty clear to me too. Posing a question Uhm...I didn't pose a question.


Sorry - We Don't come to a proper understanding of Scripture by way of intellect...we are ill-equipped...it can't be done. It comes through Power in Authority...that which, your, Greek does not possess!I wonder what this means. "Be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind." Or this. "Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults." For that matter, I wonder why Jesus so frequently entered into debate if thinking is not important? Why did He have that long discussion with Nicodemus in John 3?

You are acting as though the the thought life and the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit are somehow at odds with each other. They are not.

Uhm...I didn't pose a question. That's my point. Are you totally oblivious? How do you explain this?
Wait. WHO is in charge??No longer a question
I pretty well understand where DW is going with his commentsBut a comment?
Gee, who would have known? Pretty straight forward there...no confusion here.

Question
Quote: DW - who is the actual authority? Answer - Has nothing to do with Authority...What's the confusion? Okay then, I need no further understanding.
Thanks for clearing that up for me.

First you said, "Yes. It is pretty clear to me too. Posing a question." When I replied that I had not asked a question, then you claimed, "That's my point."

I think you are confused. Perhaps you are intimidated by DW's level of education? At any rate, I have no idea what you are objecting to.

DW's level of education?Yup. I am awestruck at his (now yours) profound insight. Asking such a "question" as this -
who is the actual authority? Then declaring - "it has nothing to do with Authority!!!"

Also;
"Who Touched Me?"
"I enjoy taking these things and putting them in today's lingo that the kids talk"This explains a lot.

A person might come to this same conclusion while studying the Greek.
"There's no really serious, theological point."Gaining Little to no understanding of what Jesus was talking about. There are some good reasons why a Pastor or layperson might take up Greek. Using it as if to "marshal the Scriptures," should not be one of them.

As far as:
who is the actual authority? Luke 19:11 - [Jesus], came to receive for himself "Authority to be King" and then return...might hold the answer to whatever you're looking for.

Side note; There are many avenues of Approach when coming to Jesus. Who are you to say it is wrong? It is not what you know to be true. It has more to do with a person's own Experience with Truth.

You can say or believe - whatever you think or speak, as your truth. But you'd only be lying to yourself and others. Example: I know this to be true, I know this in my heart (intellect) of hearts to be total, 100% truth, it's who I am, it's who I've become! I believe it with all my being!!! GOD has said it, it's in the Bible! You'd be in Error. One needs to experience truth before it becomes the truth that 'lives' in you. Put yourself to the test.

Kinda like having a handicap placard. You could use it but you don't really need to use it. so You make a stand - I don't want to think of myself as a cripple...I will never use my handicap placard again. The next time you head to the store and you're in a rush, the parking lot is full...use your handicap placard...isn't a big deal, just this one time. - Set in your heart (don't park in the handicap) and believe it's a matter of life or death!

As soon as God reveals something to you, you immediately want to go and tell somebody...Everybody wants to know something, right? It might be better to just keep it to yourself.

As soon as you start telling others, they will immediately start to tear you down - NO, that's not the way it is! It might be better to keep it to yourself, as if Jesus was telling you a secret and wanted you to keep it a secret. Then one day you might experience it for real and even develop a new understanding (for others), through testimony.

Truth (Holy Spirit) will become the real deal within you...coming with Power and Authority!

Carry on. I'll let you get back to your Greek lesson.

Yup. I am awestruck at his (now yours) profound insight. Asking such a "question" as this
who is the actual authority?


I didn't ask that question. That was DW's.


Then declaring - it has nothing to do with Authority!!!I didn't "declare" that either.

As to the rest, I have no idea of what you are so upset about.


It is not what you know to be true. It has more to do with a person's own Experience with Truth.Truth is not determined by experience. For the Christian, truth is determined by the Bible.

Yup. I am awestruck at his (now yours) profound insight. Asking such a "question" as this - Then declaring - "it has nothing to do with Authority!!!"


There are many avenues of Approach when coming to Jesus. Who are you to say it is wrong? It is not what you know to be true. It has more to do with a person's own Experience...

Waltero, I actually understand you! You're a mystic. The literalists here will never understand you. They dwell on the surface, never in the depths.

Question
Quote: DW - who is the actual authority?
Answer - Has nothing to do with Authority...What's the confusion? Okay then, I need no further understanding.
Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Satan said "I have been given authority" but it's not about authority. I don't understand, but then, you give very little to understand.


I don't think in "the greek." Greek is not where it's at. You have proven my understanding of where the two of you are at.


I'm not sure why you think you get to define "the greek" as if it's some foreign, arcane or mythical concept. It is the language the New Testament was written in. How you consistently fail to grasp that is beyond me, but from now on, let me be clear about something:

When I ask a question, I'm asking anybody except you. So please stay out of my threads.

Is that clear enough for you? Or do I need to say it in Greek?

do I need to say it in Greek?


Ha ha - lol. Good one!


For Waltero, from him.


“There is need of only one thing. Mary has chosen the better part.”

and

"There are many mansions in my father's house".