Faith is not
Faith is not believe in a God of your own imagination.

Real Christianity requires much more than a vague belief in Jesus as personal savior.

Hebrews 11:1 tells us what faith is according to the Bible: “Now faith is the substantiation of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” ... Faith is also the conviction of things not seen. It convinces us of what we do not see. Hence, it is the evidence, the proof, of things not seen.”

Faith is believing the evidence, yes, "the conviction of things not seen," since there is no proof.

Let's say you had a dream. One day you were walking down the street and- Deja vu! You remember this same scene, that you are presently standing in, almost as if you had been there before. All of a sudden you remember this dream you had years ago. What would you do? Would you continue on your intended route or would you try to bring the dream into focus?

would you try to bring the dream into focus?
What would that accomplish?

Where's your faith? Ignoring the dream- you might miss something.
If you decided to focus in on the dream and continue to play it out?

I've experienced many such Dreams. I always (well, not always) try to continue. Same as I did in the dream.

One such Dream: I was in a building doing something, something that I had never done before, I have never seen before...I didn't even know where I was or what I was doing. Some years later I was Working in a Cannery, I myself moving racks of fish- and poof, I was in my dream! I had some doubt, thought it might be a simple Deja vu moment. Then I remembered, the Morning of my dream I had called my Mother. So I called my my Mother up; asked my Mother if she remembered the dream I had a few years back, the dream I had mentioned to her over the phone. The dream where I didn't know where I was at and I was doing something strange (I remember the racks, not the fish). Confirmation! she remembered. After thinking WOW, this is crazy, I told her I remembered (in the dream) that there were two cans of Soda behind a bin of Ice, way back in the corner. SO I went over bent down and reached under the bin...wo and behold I pulled out two can's of Soda!!! Ma and I both marveled at such a thing, then I drank da Soda and went back to sluffing off. I wasn't worried about drinking another man's soda, it was my place, and I figured it had been left by the other guy who just got fired.

I've had other significant dreams. Later in life. When I found myself in a situation where I didn't really know what to do (on the Job Usually), I would sometimes reach out and see what I did in the Dream...a dream that I didn't even know I had. As you know I'm not the Smartest tool in the shed, and I look like a guy that would screw up a lot. GOD has blessed (faith in my idea of a dream) me with bigger jobs than most. I have much more now (Not working) than I ever had while working...hard to figure that one out. Blessings from GOD I know!

Faith is not
Faith is not believe in a God of your own imagination.

Of course it is. Faith does not require real-world evidence outside of your imagination. That's why it's called Faith - the subject we've been discussing for weeks here. Have you comprehended nothing in all that time?


Real Christianity requires much more than a vague belief in Jesus as personal savior.

ABSOLUTELY 100% CORRECT. However many Christian fundamentalists will disagree with you.


Faith is also the conviction of things not seen. It convinces us of what we do not see. Hence, it is the evidence, the proof, of things not seen.”

Being convinced of a thing is proof?? Huh? Not in a million years. Please W - think, think, think before you write.

Btw, Is English a second language for you? If so, that may explain a lot.

Of course it is. Faith does not require real-world evidence outside of your imagination.
The Bible, why is it here? It’s here for the encouragement of the readers! Their faith is faltering. How does your faith, when it’s faltering, get made strong? By looking in on itself?


Being convinced of a thing is proof?? Huh? Not in a million years. Please W - think, think, think before you write.
Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the assurance (title deed, confirmation) of things hoped for (divinely guaranteed), and the evidence of things not seen [the conviction of their reality—faith comprehends as fact what cannot be experienced by the physical senses].


think, think, think before you write
You're thinking with your eyes.

Bring the Bible to life...operate in faith.
Faith is believing the Word.

Many Examples of faith in the Bible. We can discus them further if you like?

The Bible, why is it here? It’s here for the encouragement of the readers!

Agreed. Much of the Bible can be very uplifting in difficult times. But I'm not sure what this has to do with the discussion. Don't forget, if you want to change the topic, you can always start a new thread so as not to confuse an existing thread.


How does your faith, when it’s faltering, get made strong?

My faith is not the issue here. The issue - which you started (good for you) - is what faith is, not mine but generally.


By looking in on itself?

I don't know what you mean. However, it sounds a bit sarcastic. Is it? Sarcastic? If so, why?


Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the assurance (title deed, confirmation) of things hoped for (divinely guaranteed), and the evidence of things not seen [the conviction of their reality—faith comprehends as fact what cannot be experienced by the physical senses].

With your exegesis in parens, you have managed to misconstrue the meaning. More like totally garbled it. It's ok to derive your own meaning from the Bible, but don't expect others to buy into it.


You're thinking with your eyes.

No, I think with my brain. What are you trying to say?


Bring the Bible to life...operate in faith.
Faith is believing the Word.

I have no objection to either statement. If it works for you, more power to you.


Many Examples of faith in the Bible. We can discus them further if you like?

To what purpose? I'm still waiting for your responses to proving God from the other thread. If you're finished with that one, ok by me.

Faith is not believe in a God of your own imagination.Completely agree.


Real Christianity requires much more than a vague belief in Jesus as personal savior.Not real sure I understand your point here. Perhaps you are saying we must repent and believe, as opposed to believing only? If that is the case, then I think you are entirely correct.


The Bible, why is it here? It’s here for the encouragement of the readers! That's a good point, but it's not the primary purpose of the Bible. I would say the primary of the Bible is to establish the truth of God.

Agreed. Much of the Bible can be very uplifting in difficult times. But I'm not sure what this has to do with the discussion

Has to do with Faith. Where Christians derive their faith


My faith is not the issue here. The issue - which you started - is what faith is.
Has nothing to do with "my" Faith or "your faith. Has to do with 'God's faith.'


By looking in on itself?
There is no "My" faith or "your" faith in real faith.



It's ok to derive your own meaning from the Bible.
There is Power in the Word. Everlasting power. there is no power in your or my faith/word.


No, I think with my brain. What are you trying to say?
Take your Focus off of this world.


If it works for you, more power to you.
It works for everybody. In fact it is the only thing that works.


To what purpose?
Understanding God's faith.
 

I'm still waiting for your responses to proving God 
Here it is; GOD said it, I believe it...you're thinking with your eyes again.

Has to do with 'God's faith.'

God has faith IN His words in that when He says something, He has No Doubt that it will come to pass – there is no “incomplete knowledge,” there at all. When we have faith IN God, we are to have faith IN our words; therefore, we have “The God Kind OF Faith…

If you don't understand the Bible being the living Word. You are totally blind to what I speak.
Yah, I know, if it works for me. That is your response to everything. It works far all

Faith comes from GOD. Faith belongs to GOD. End of Story.

Has to do with Faith. Where Christians derive their faith


Has nothing to do with "my" Faith or "your faith. Has to do with 'God's faith.'


There is no "My" faith or "your" faith in real faith.



There is Power in the Word. Everlasting power. there is no power in your or my faith/word.


Take your Focus off of this world.


It works for everybody. In fact it is the only thing that works.


Understanding God's faith.


Here it is; GOD said it, I believe it...you're thinking with your eyes again.


I'm sorry Waldo, but you have shown yourself completely unable to conduct an adult conversation. I know you're young, but your responses are ridiculous and are chasing people away from God or the god you believe in. I've given you every chance to engage, but you refuse. Providing this page with garbled gibberish isn't working for you.

The Bible, why is it here? It’s here for the encouragement of the readers!
That's a good point, but it's not the primary purpose of the Bible. I would say the primary of the Bible is to establish the truth of God.

Talking about faith.
Many examples of faith are in the Bible. Real people, we can gain a better understanding of faith by their example.
Abraham’s Faithful Obedience, Isaac and His Sons, Jacob and His Grandsons, Joseph and His Bones, Moses in the Basket, Moses Chooses the Invisible over the Visible ect.


Real Christianity requires much more than a vague belief in Jesus as personal savior.
Not real sure I understand your point here

Has to do with Belief vs faith thing. Not sure what my point might have been either, tired.


Faith is also the conviction of things not seen. It convinces us of what we do not see. Hence, it is the evidence, the proof, of things not seen.”

Being convinced of a thing is proof?? Huh? Not in a million years.

That's my point. You can not see. You will not see. If you are able to open the Bible and read it with a clear mind you might Be surprised by what you see.


I'm still waiting for your responses to proving God
What do you want? Should I adopt Athos Faith?
You have it in your mind that the proof doesn't exist...no matter who provides it. Even if it were Jesus come in the Flesh, you still would not believe...FACT!



Faith is not believe in a God of your own imagination.


Of course it is.

How does a person's imaginary faith, when it’s faltering, get made strong? By looking in on itself?


I've given you every chance to engage, but you refuse. This is not an engagement (can you separate faith and logic... Huh? Not in a million years), simply for the fact that I know where your coming from. Your stuck in your own mind, your own world. Always the same response- Huh? Not in a million years, that's crazy talk, your crazy - You have no idea where I'm coming from. As long as your focus is on this world you will remain blind to the Word of GOD.

Talking about faith.
Many examples of faith are in the Bible. Real people, we can gain a better understanding of faith by their example. Abraham’s Faithful Obedience, Isaac and His Sons, Jacob and His Grandsons, Joseph and His Bones, Moses in the Basket, Moses Chooses the Invisible over the Visible ect.Fair enough.


Has to do with Belief vs faith thing. Not sure what my point might have been either, tired.I've been there.


How does a person's imaginary faith, when it’s faltering, get made strong? By looking in on itself?It's an imaginary faith in a god of his own making. It has very little to do with the Bible.


What do you want? Should I adopt Athos Faith?That one was amusing!

Many examples of faith are in the Bible. Real people, we can gain a better understanding of faith by their example. Abraham’s Faithful Obedience, Isaac and His Sons, Jacob and His Grandsons, Joseph and His Bones, Moses in the Basket, Moses Chooses the Invisible over the Visible ect.

Another example of you missing the point. You post whatever pops into your head.


Not sure what my point might have been

That's the truest thing you've ever said here. Congratulations!


You can not see. You will not see.

Want to provide some proof for that? No, I didn't think so.


What do you want?

An intelligent conversation from you. I'm slowly realizing that's an impossibility.


Should I adopt Athos Faith?

Only if you know what it is. But you don't know.


You have it in your mind that the proof doesn't exist...no matter who provides it.

If you provide proof, I'll be the first to admit it.


Even if it were Jesus come in the Flesh, you still would not believe...FACT!

No, not FACT! Just another touch of hysteria from your fevered mind.


How does a person's imaginary faith, when it’s faltering, get made strong? By looking in on itself?

If an imaginary faith is faltering, let it falter.


can you separate faith and logic... Huh?

Sure. Faith is based on belief. Logic is based on reason. Faith is subjective. Logic is objective.


simply for the fact that I know where your coming from. Your stuck in your own mind, your own world. Always the same response- Huh? Not in a million years, that's crazy talk, your crazy - You have no idea where I'm coming from. As long as your focus is on this world you will remain blind to the Word of GOD.

Another run-on sentence that has little meaning. Really, Walter, how old are you?

Many examples of faith are in the Bible. Real people, we can gain a better understanding of faith by their example. Abraham’s Faithful Obedience, Isaac and His Sons, Jacob and His Grandsons, Joseph and His Bones, Moses in the Basket, Moses Chooses the Invisible over the Visible ect.
Another example of you missing the point. You post whatever pops into your head
Uh, yah, that came right out of my head. Righhhhht. It looks to be right out of the Bible. If anybody has any doubt, I will be happy to explain (explain the Power of faith!)?

Not sure what my point might have been.
That's the truest thing you've ever said here. Congratulations!
Oh sure. You understand this!
Thank you. 

You can not see. You will not see.
Want to provide some proof for that? No, I didn't think so.
Why? You don't need any help from me, you've already provided it.

What do you want?
An intelligent conversation from you.
Oh really. A typical conversation with Athos:- Nope, no it isn't, I don't care, your ingant, shut up nobody cares, faith is what ever I make it, one only need use his imagination, true faith is irrelevant.

Should I adopt Athos Faith?
Only if you know what it is. But you don't know.
Sure I do. You've refuted the Bible- while claiming; NO I DID NOT! I was going to hop on to the other thread and post every single instance where you have refuted the Bible. I chose not to because it would take up too much space. You already stated; Faith is believe in a God of your own imagination...I mean WOW!

You have it in your mind that the proof doesn't exist...no matter who provides it.
If you provide proof, I'll be the first to admit it.
Already been done, if you search through your posts you will knw what I know...your setting bait for Christians. Here Little Fishy, fishy, here little fishy...You are here to try and prove a point. You will admit nothing, you couldn't handle losing face.

Even if Jesus come down in the Flesh, you still would not believe...FACT!
No, not FACT! Just another touch of hysteria from your fevered mind.
Sorry, but tis a FACT.  There is more than a good chance if Jesus was to come down and look me square in the eye- Come the next day I probably wouldn't have gained a thing, and I'd go right back to my life, same as it ever was. Look at John the Baptist, He Baptized Jesus, later he questioned who Jesus was?
can you separate faith and logic...
Huh? Sure. Faith is based on belief. Logic is based on reason. Faith is subjective. Logic is objective.Part of the reason that we strive to separate faith and logic is that logic demands proof and evidence while faith sees something as a reality which is yet unseen. You might have a good grasp on Logic but you have no comprehension of what faith is.

Birds of a feather...
I see now, WG and You Athos are missing something (that be the Bible). WG, Quote: "The Word of God is not the Bible." End Quote.
Like I said, This is a learning experience for me and I will use as a reference. I always Appreciate your input jlisenbe. Athos Does get a guy thinking. Thank you both

Sure I do. You've refuted the Bible- while claiming; NO I DID NOTThat's pretty much how it goes. There are many people who will believe the Bible in any way in which it agrees with them. When it disagrees with them they resort to disparaging the Bible, accusing us of "cherry-picking" or taking a text out of context, alleging the Bible is wholly metaphorical, and so forth. The bottom line is this. Something else other than the Bible is chiefly informing their beliefs, and that something else is their own opinions.

The two posts above are singular for their glaring inability to read the posts of others and to comprehend them. Waldo's contribution is so off the mark that it's not worth replying to him anymore. Jl's is not much better as he continues with the same old tirade he has been promoting for so many months. Perfect bedfellows who can talk at each other until the cows come home. Have fun, lads.

Some advice for both of them: FACTS are what is required here. Coherent facts. Not dream fantasies, imaginary beliefs, brainwashing from the cradle, threats to those holding different points of view, and so on and so forth.

Some advice for both of them: FACTS are what is required here. Coherent facts. Not dream fantasies, imaginary beliefs, brainwashing from the cradle, threats to those holding different points of view, and so on and so forth.
I've asked before and really wish waltero and even JL would post a numbered list of personal religious beliefs, each short and to the point -- sort of like an Apostles Creed for AMHD.

FACTS are what is required here.
Not exactly. Your trying to bring Logic into matters of Faith(read topic).

Coherent facts. Not dream fantasies, imaginary beliefs
Sounds like what you are saying; Faith is not believe in a God of your own imagination?
Yes, So what is it, you want "Facts" ("real-world evidence outside of your imagination")?
You seem to be confused. Your previous statements don't jive.

No worries, I get confused all the time. Faith is a hard one to comprehend. Read the Bible, believe it and walk before Jesus, in Faith.
Think of it like this; You are walking with a staff (Jesus being staff). You come to an Ocean and God tells you to raise the Staff, don't ask why, don't waste time thinking about how raising a staff is going to get you out of the terror that is about to strike you and your people, Just raise the staff knowing that God has your back. Once the staff is raised reality will present itself. You did nothing but hold the staff.


I've asked before and really wish waltero and even JL would post a numbered list of personal religious beliefs I believe in GOD"S Faith, aka the Word of God.

The apostles creed works well for me. It is a good foundation and a solid start. Not exhaustive but very good.

The apostles creed works well for me. It is a good foundation and a solid start. Not exhaustive but very good.
It says what the main beliefs are, and is supplemented by the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds.

FACTS are what is required here.
Not exactly. Your trying to bring Logic into matters of Faith(read topic).

Coherent facts. Not dream fantasies, imaginary beliefs
Sounds like what you are saying; Faith is not believe in a God of your own imagination?
Yes, So what is it, you want "Facts" ("real-world evidence outside of your imagination")?
You seem to be confused. Your previous statements don't jive.

No worries, I get confused all the time. Faith is a hard one to comprehend. Read the Bible, believe it and walk before Jesus in Faith.
Think of it like this; You are walking with a staff (Jesus being staff). You come to an Ocean and God tells you to raise the Staff, don't ask why, don't waste time thinking about how raising a staff is going to get you out of the terror that is about to strike you and your people, Just raise the staff knowing that God has your back. Once the staff is raised reality will present itself. You did nothing but hold the staff.
It had nothing to do with your plan. It had nothing to do with you. It is all about GOD'S plan.
Luke 19:40

And He answered and said, “I tell you, if these become silent, the stones will cry out!”
What do you make of this? would this be considered a "Fact"?


I've asked before and really wish waltero and even JL would post a numbered list of personal religious beliefs I believe in GOD"S Faith, aka the Word of God.

I believe in GOD"S Faith, aka the Word of God.
You don't believe in God's faith. YOU have faith in God. YOU (not God) are the one with faith. That's what "I believe" means -- "I have faith".

YOU believe in what the Bible says; YOU believe in God's Word.

You don't believe in God's faith. YOU have faith in God. YOU (not God) are the one with faith. That's what "I believe" means -- "I have faith".
Similar to, God like faith.
out of time right now. I can dive deeper into at a later date.
we get our faith from God...Even our faith is not our own. Absolutely nothing, nothing comes from us!

Sounds like what you are saying; Faith is not believe in a God of your own imagination?
Yes, So what is it, you want "Facts" ("real-world evidence outside of your imagination")?
You seem to be confused. Your previous statements don't jive.

God knows whatever that's supposed to mean.


I get confused all the time.

Second truest statement from you ever!!


Think of it like this

Good grief! Just THINK! Your story is typically garbled meaning nothing.


I believe in GOD"S Faith, aka the Word of God.

"The lady doth protest too much."

Similar to, God like faith.
out of time right now. I can dive deeper into at a later date.
we get our faith from God...Even our faith is not our own. Absolutely nothing, nothing comes from us!
The Holy Spirit gives us faith. What comes from us? -- we can reject it. There is no "God like faith".

The Holy Spirit gives us faith. Why do you believe that?


There is no "God like faith".I tend to agree with that. I don't think God has "faith". God does not need it, or at least as I understand it.

Why do you believe that?

It’s the work of the Holy Spirit to empower us to have faith so we understand and experience Christ and His love in our hearts.

Here's a cherry-picked verse just for you!
“I pray that out of his glorious riches, he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith.” Eph. 3:16-17

Your verse does not say that the Holy Spirit gives faith. In fact, in your verse, the Holy Spirit is the agent of power, not faith. "...he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit..." Now it says that Christ dwells in our hearts by faith, but it does not say that the faith spoken of is provided by the Spirit.

So you still have given no reason to believe that the Holy Spirit gives faith.

Your verse does not say that the Holy Spirit gives faith. In fact, in your verse, the Holy Spirit is the agent of power, not faith. "...he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit..." Now it says that Christ dwells in our hearts by faith, but it does not say that the faith spoken of is provided by the Spirit.

So you still have given no reason to believe that the Holy Spirit gives faith.
"...so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith..." I will do more cherrypicking, or will you always spit on my proof passages?

Your proof passages need to offer some proof. That one does not say that the Holy Spirit gives faith. It simply says Jesus dwells in our hearts through faith.

Keep looking. You are making no progress.

Your proof passages need to offer some proof. That one does not say that the Holy Spirit gives faith. It simply says Jesus dwells in our hearts through faith.

Keep looking. You are making no progress.
You're full of applesauce!

"...through his Spirit in your inner being..."

Try Eph. 2:8-9.

You're full of applesauce!

HEY! This is a holy site - no cursing allowed.

Eph. 2:8-9.Now that is much better. But even there, it does not specify the Holy Spirit as the giver of faith, and it's not even clear that it is "faith" that is given rather than "grace". And the context added in verse 9 seems to indicate that it is the salvation itself that is the gift, for what is it that is, "not as a result of works"? Is it not salvation itself? At any rate, it never said the Holy Spirit gives faith.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Keep trying.

Now that is much better. But even there, it does not specify the Holy Spirit as the giver of faith, and it's not even clear that it is "faith" that is given rather than "grace". And the context added in verse 9 seems to indicate that it is the salvation itself that is the gift, for what is it that is, "not as a result of works"? Is it not salvation itself? At any rate, it never said the Holy Spirit gives faith.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Keep trying.
No, you lost on this one. The Holy Spirit is one of the three members of the Trinity, meaning God (God the Father, God the Son Jesus, and God the Holy Spirit)..

That's a weak argument. It's like saying the Holy Spirit died on the cross since, after all, "The Holy Spirit is one of the three members of the Trinity, meaning God (God the Father, God the Son Jesus, and God the Holy Spirit), " or that the Holy Spirit is the Father of Jesus since, after all, "The Holy Spirit is one of the three members of the Trinity, meaning God (God the Father, God the Son Jesus, and God the Holy Spirit)."

And besides all of that, as I pointed out above, it is not clear at all if it is "faith" that is being spoken of as "the gift of God".



You still have not said what happens to those who reject the Gospel.

That's a weak argument. It's like saying the Holy Spirit died on the cross since, after all, "The Holy Spirit is one of the three members of the Trinity, meaning God (God the Father, God the Son Jesus, and God the Holy Spirit)."

You still have not said what happens to those who reject the Gospel.
You don't believe in the Trinity?

I did answer that.

You don't believe in the Trinity?
I do. You still have not posted any scripture which says the Holy Spirit gives faith. Keep trying.


I did answer that This was your weak as water reply. "We are always on the prowl (lookout) for them to show them our love and, through that love, witness to them."

So I guess I need to be more specific. What happens to them if they die after rejecting and never accepting the Gospel? "It is appointed unto man once to die, and then the judgment."

What then?

I do. You still have not posted any scripture which says the Holy Spirit gives faith. Keep trying.
Comprehension again! It. Is. The. Gift. Of. God.

No, you haven't.
It was on the other thread where you asked and I answered.

The. Gift. Of. God.It...does...not...say...the...Holy...Spirit. It...does...not...say...faith...is...the...subject .

This was your weak as water reply. "We are always on the prowl (lookout) for them to show them our love and, through that love, witness to them."

So I guess I need to be more specific. What happens to them if they die after rejecting and never accepting the Gospel? "It is appointed unto man once to die, and then the judgment."

What then?

It...does...not...say...the...Holy...Spirit. It...does...not...say...faith...is...the...subject .
If you were a Bible scribe, heaven help us all! This is EXACTLY why the Scriptures have been mistranslated and misinterpreted.

This was your weak as water reply. "We are always on the prowl (lookout) for them to show them our love and, through that love, witness to them."
Try it.

So I guess I need to be more specific. What happens to them if they die after rejecting and never accepting the Gospel? "It is appointed unto man once to die, and then the judgment."

What then?
Not my call. You believe God will send to hell everyone except "true believers" (are we up to 1,000 yet?).

Quotes:
Waldo- Faith is not believe in a God of your own imagination.
Athos-  Of course it is. Faith does not require real-world evidence outside of your imagination.
Waldo- (Talking about faith)So what is it you want?
Athos -FACTS are what is required here.
Waldo- You mean "Facts" like "real-world evidence outside of your imagination"?
Athos- Coherent facts. Not dream fantasies, imaginary beliefs.
Waldo- You seem to be confused. Your previous statements don't jive.
Athos- That's it I'm done talking.

Waldo- can you separate faith and logic?
Athos- Sure. Faith is based on belief. Logic is based on reason. Faith is subjective. Logic is objective.
Waldo- Part of the reason that we strive to separate faith and logic is that logic demands proof and evidence while faith sees something as a reality which is yet unseen. You might have a good grasp on Logic but you have no comprehension of what faith is.
Waldo- Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the assurance (title deed, confirmation) of things hoped for (divinely guaranteed), and the evidence of things not seen [the conviction of their reality—faith comprehends as fact what cannot be experienced by the physical senses].
Athos- With your exegesis in parens, you have managed to misconstrue the meaning. More like totally garbled it.
Waldo- (Who? what? how? huh??? )
Athos- Being convinced of a thing is proof?? Huh? Not in a million years.
Waldo- You're thinking with your eyes.
Athos- No, I think with my brain.
Waldo- Talking about faith here.
Athos-  I'm still waiting for your responses to proving God
Waldo-  Here it is; GOD said it, I believe it.
Athos- still waiting...is not logical, does not compute, does not compute...overload, overload (rissen friss frassin friss frass)

Athos- your Crazy
Waldo- Do you think I'm Craaazy, crazaay...maybe I'm crazaay crazy just like youuuu! I love that Song.

Not my call. You believe God will send to hell everyone except "true believers" (are we up to 1,000 yet?).I realize it is not your call, but you are certainly drawing conclusions in other areas based upon your understanding of scripture. What is your understanding of scripture here?

What is your understanding of scripture here?
What difference does it make? No matter what I say, I'll be wrong, according to you. Of course, I could parrot you and get a high-five from you.

Quotes:
Waldo- Faith is not believe in a God of your own imagination.
Athos- Of course it is. Faith does not require real-world evidence outside of your imagination.
Waldo- (Talking about faith)So what is it you want?
Athos -FACTS are what is required here.
Waldo- You mean "Facts" like "real-world evidence outside of your imagination"?
Athos- Coherent facts. Not dream fantasies, imaginary beliefs.
Waldo- You seem to be confused. Your previous statements don't jive.
Athos- That's it I'm done talking.

Waldo- can you separate faith and logic?
Athos- Sure. Faith is based on belief. Logic is based on reason. Faith is subjective. Logic is objective.
Waldo- Part of the reason that we strive to separate faith and logic is that logic demands proof and evidence while faith sees something as a reality which is yet unseen. You might have a good grasp on Logic but you have no comprehension of what faith is.
Waldo- Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the assurance (title deed, confirmation) of things hoped for (divinely guaranteed), and the evidence of things not seen [the conviction of their reality—faith comprehends as fact what cannot be experienced by the physical senses].
Athos- With your exegesis in parens, you have managed to misconstrue the meaning. More like totally garbled it.
Waldo- (Who? what? how? huh??? )
Athos- Being convinced of a thing is proof?? Huh? Not in a million years.
Waldo- You're thinking with your eyes.
Athos- No, I think with my brain.
Waldo- Talking about faith here.
Athos- I'm still waiting for your responses to proving God
Waldo- Here it is; GOD said it, I believe it.
Athos- still waiting...is not logical, does not compute, does not compute...overload, overload (rissen friss frassin friss frass)

Athos- your Crazy
Waldo- Do you think I'm Craaazy, crazaay...maybe I'm crazaay crazy just like youuuu! I love that Song.

Waltero - Very good, I'm impressed. I know it took time and effort for you to get all those quotes in a reasonable order and properly attributed. I realize it's c/p but still.............

Now, I stand by every single quote by me without qualification. Clear enough for you? It was unclear the reason you posted those. I assume you think they're in various stages of error, but maybe my assumption is incorrect.

In any case, if you object to any, just note which ones, tell me why, and I will be most happy to give you my reason(s). OK?

What difference does it make?A lot.

A lot.
Sooooo, you want me to say that everyone who doesn't believe like I do will endure an endless fiery hell.

if you object to any, just note which ones, tell me why, and I will be most happy to give you my reason(s). OK?
Fair enough.

It's a Childlike faith.
In the Video below, It would be very easy for either child to simply look outside the window and "see" the truth

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaM9J2VHLf8

God and Faith:
My Father told me something, there is no need for me to go "see" if it is true. He said it, I believe it. When God said he created the entire universe I believe him. SO when somebody comes up to me and says; prove it! I might simply say- what are you talking about, your standing on it. They would probably respond; your crazy- what are you talking about (spark of curiosity) Then I'd take it from there, if they chose to stick around (you'd be surprised how long people stick around). You might think it is "the wrong approach for Christians" to express their desire while attempting to "prove the existence of God." Maybe you could see it as a childlike faith? is that acceptable to you?

I liked how the boy slipped in there "your pretty." Strange how he said; You’re not real I’m real”

It's a Childlike faith.

If this is to me, it's not one of the posts from your #46.

To repeat: if you object to any, just note which ones, tell me why, and I will be most happy to give you my reason(s). OK?

I think you said Ok to this or something like that. If so, try again.

This is where it all began.

There is no proof for the existence of God

"the wrong approach for Christians"
Why: Because It looks as if you have some animosity towered such belief.

Sorry I thought it was obvious. I'm tired of searching through posts
I don't know if it is one of the questions you prefer. If not you can disregard.

Why: Because It looks as if you have some animosity towered such belief.

This is not one of the quotes you said you would give for questions. Do you understand what you agreed to? Do you want me to answer this one anyway?

Sure
Here it is:

No, I think with my brain.
Why; If I only had a brain.

Sure
Here it is:

Why; If I only had a brain.

Your part is to tell me why you object to my saying I think with my brain. I originally bolded tat on purpose so you wouldn't forget.

Sure
Here it is:

Why; If I only had a brain.

Nah, I was just being silly. Tired, can't go into right now.
Night

Sooooo, you want me to say that everyone who doesn't believe like I do will endure an endless fiery hell.I want you to say what you believe. I was surprised you would agree that people do reject the Gospel. If you don't want to say what happens to those people once they die, then that's fine. Your choice.

I want you to say what you believe. I was surprised you would agree that people do reject the Gospel. If you don't want to say what happens to those people once they die, then that's fine. Your choice.
But if I say what I believe, you will cut me down to size and spit in my face as I fall to the ground.

God hasn't made me a celestial judge. He's even told us not to judge, lest we be judged ourselves. If someone rejects Him, that person is immediately destined for hell no matter what? And we, like God, can see into that person's heart and know him/her and why the rejection?

But if I say what I believe, you will cut me down to size and spit in my face as I fall to the ground.Stop complaining and grossly exaggerating. Give and take is all part of discussion. I have actually applauded you WILDLY for your discovery that there are those who reject the Gospel.


God hasn't made me a celestial judge. He's even told us not to judge, lest we be judged ourselves. If someone rejects Him, that person is immediately destined for hell no matter what? And we, like God, can see into that person's heart and know him/her and why the rejection?I simply asked you what you believe the Bible teaches about those people. If you don't know, or don't want to answer, then that's fine. We can move on.

I simply asked you what you believe the Bible teaches about those people

You demand others explain their beliefs while you never do so. You just provide Bible verses when asked to explain. Strikes me as a double standard.

You demand others explain their beliefs while you never do so. You just provide Bible verses when asked to explain. Strikes me as a double standard.1. I did not ask her to explain anything. I simply asked her what she believed the Bible teaches. If she wants to post several clear, to-the-point passages from the Bible, then I would be thrilled. It would be a massive change for either of you to do that.
2. I have explained to you what I believe. I believe that what Jesus said is true. His statements are utterly clear and utterly to-the-point. You don't like them nor believe them. That's your choice.

Your upset because you want to flip the discussion to what my opinions are. You can hardly wait to leap and pounce upon them. Then you get frustrated when I avoid that. I simply post what the Bible says and assure you that I believe those words. That way, if you want to argue, you'll have to argue with God. I'll warn you in advance; He is not moved by what you or I think.

Your upset because you want to flip the discussion to what my opinions are. You can hardly wait to leap and pounce upon them.

Calm down. Your panties are getting in a bunch again.


I simply post what the Bible says

Yes, you do. That's the problem. You hide behind the verses and claim everybody else puts their "opinions" above the Bible. You never seem to realize that your choice of Bible Bingo is an opinion also.


That way, if you want to argue, you'll have to argue with God.

There you go again! Equating your opinions with God.


I'll warn you in advance

Of course you will. It wouldn't be you unless it was accompanied by a threat.

Stop complaining and grossly exaggerating. Give and take is all part of discussion. I have actually applauded you WILDLY for your discovery that there are those who reject the Gospel.
One wild (???) round of applause doesn't make up for months of applesauce.

I simply asked you what you believe the Bible teaches about those people. If you don't know, or don't want to answer, then that's fine. We can move on.
I believe it's in God's hands, and is not in my wheelhouse.

If she wants to post several clear, to-the-point passages from the Bible, then I would be thrilled.
The few times I have, they weren't good enough.

Your upset because you want to flip the discussion to what my opinions are. You can hardly wait to leap and pounce upon them.



Calm down. Your panties are getting in a bunch again.You're so funny (as in "strange"). You are so anxious to say something to sound "big" that you pick out practically anything and reply to it. I much prefer your Darth Vader persona. It's way over the top in drama, but that kind of suits you. As a comedian, you just don't cut it.


Yes, you do. That's the problem. You hide behind the verses and claim everybody else puts their "opinions" above the Bible. You never seem to realize that your choice of Bible Bingo is an opinion also.You just don't get it. There are those of us who live by what the Bible teaches. We are called "Christians". We don't hide behind verses, we simply believe them. You don't, and therein lies the difference.



That way, if you want to argue, you'll have to argue with God.


There you go again! Equating your opinions with God.You are really slow in getting this. If you don't like the Bible, then you will have to take that up with it's author. See how simple that is?


WG


One wild (???) round of applause doesn't make up for months of applesauce.You have to deserve the applause to get it.


I believe it's in God's hands, and is not in my wheelhouse.Fair enough. Probably just raw evasion, but still fair enough. We can go with that.


If she wants to post several clear, to-the-point passages from the Bible, then I would be thrilled.


The few times I have, they weren't good enough.I'm sure you are referring to your last two water-weak attempts. They were clear, but absolutely not to-the-point in regards to what you were trying to establish.

WG said: One wild (???) round of applause doesn't make up for months of applesauce.

You have to deserve it to get it.
Just like how you think of heaven.

I'm sure you are referring to your last two water-weak attempts. They were clear, but absolutely not to-the-point in regards to what you were trying to establish.
I just can't cut the mustard, can I. Woe is me. I will NEVER be good enough for you.

You are so anxious to say something to sound "big" that you pick out practically anything and reply to it.

As an analyst, you are about as effective as a Bible thumper.


I much prefer your Darth Vader persona.

Thank you. And thanks for saying what your DV means. I didn't know that.


It's way over the top in drama, but that kind of suits you. As a comedian, you just don't cut it.

And you were being so complimentary there! Now you've reverted to your true colors of nastiness. Not a good example for a self-proclaimed Christian.


You just don't get it.

Oh, I get it all right. More than you will ever know.


There are those of us who live by what the Bible teaches.

Good for you. Has anyone here ever said differently?


We don't hide behind verses

You don't explain yourself either, while demanding all sorts of things from others so you can entrap them. Not very Christian.


we simply believe them

You believe literally. That's where your problem is.


You don't, and therein lies the difference.

You have no idea what I believe, but that has never stopped you from claiming that you do. Among your many unfortunate tendencies, this is a big one - assuming you know the minds of others.


You are really slow in getting this. If you don't like the Bible, then you will have to take that up with it's author.
There you go again. Your now familiar standby when you run out of steam - "I didn't write it, I just quote it. It means what I say it means".

Why is it you care about what I believe?


There you go again. Your now familiar standby when you run out of steam - "I didn't write it, I just quote it. It means what I say it means".And there you go again lying. I have never said that. You know, quoted passages need to be accurate.

I did come up with one other for you.

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

WG


I just can't cut the mustard, can I. Woe is me. I will NEVER be good enough for you.I would love to have you in a Bible class. I think I could teach you some useful principles of good hermeneutics AND get you past this business of feeling sorry for yourself.

Why is it you care about what I believe?

Because your belief re hell is horrible and should never be taught to children (or anyone) as a condition of salvation.


WG

I think I could teach you some useful principles of good hermeneutics

WG can speak for herself, but I must point out that your so-called "teaching" would include the most horrific evil ever conceived by man.


AND get you past this business of feeling sorry for yourself.

Just can't resist that bit of insulting nastiness, can you?

Because your belief re hell is horrible and should never be taught to children (or anyone) as a condition of salvation.Well you should be thrilled to know that I don't do that. And bear in mind, for the 710th time, that it is not my belief about hell that we are discussing. It is what Jesus taught that should really grab you. But it doesn't because you couldn't care less what Jesus said UNLESS it agrees with your preconceived ideas. Now is that true? If it's not, and you actually do care what Jesus said, then why don't you accept it?


Just can't resist that bit of insulting nastiness, can you?It's not nastiness. It's just truth. "Woe is me. I will NEVER be good enough for you."

Please. Stop.

Why is it you care about what I believe?
Athos wants to open your heart so you don't end up in that fiery hell for eternity.

WG, I would love to have you in a Bible class. I think I could teach you some useful principles of good hermeneutics AND get you past this business of feeling sorry for yourself.
Sweety, I have been in and taught Bible classes all my adult life, plus have had more courses and classes in hermeneutics than you could shake a stick at. You didn't catch the sarcasm in my comment about cutting the mustard? Oh, my!

it is not my belief about hell that we are discussing

It isn't? Then what IS your belief re hell? YOUR belief, not a verse from the Bible.


It's not nastiness. It's just truth. "Woe is me. I will NEVER be good enough for you."

No, it's nastiness, and your inability to recognize irony.


Please. Stop.

Sure, as soon as you stop your sick hell promotion, and your ubiquitous nastiness.

It isn't? Then what IS your belief re hell? YOUR belief, not a verse from the Bible.I believe that what the Bible teaches about hell is correct. For instance, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Now bear in mind that Jesus is the one speaking.


Sure, as soon as you stop your sick hell promotion, and your ubiquitous nastiness."Ubiquitoous"!! Wow. That's are real Darth Vaderism.


No, it's nastiness, and your inability to recognize irony.Could have been irony except that she is clearly afraid to express her opinion lest someone actually challenge her on it.

Could have been irony except that she is clearly afraid to express her opinion lest someone actually challenge her on it.
I'm not afraid; my soul is weary. I've expressed my ideas on topics but have been told by you my pov is incorrect. Apparently, no honest discussion with you is possible.

Discussion isn't a slam-bam thing but full of questions, like "Have you ever read xxx? If so, what did you think about it?" or "I've always believed this about xxx. What is your experience?"

I'm not afraid; my soul is weary. I've expressed my ideas on topics but have been told by you my pov is incorrect. Apparently, no honest discussion with you is possible.I ask you for evidence (scripture, for instance) to support your view. On nearly every occasion, you have nothing. That is not my fault. That's why I would like to have you in a Bible class, to teach you how to discover truth in the Bible, or even just how to support an idea with evidence.


no honest discussion with you is possible.That is really, really, really whiny. I am not going to treat you like a little helpless female. The evidence of your life suggests you are a perfectly intelligent, brave, and accomplished human being, so I treat you in that manner. If you ever see how much you have allowed your political inclinations to influence your world view, you are going to be shocked, and it will be a great day.

I believe that what the Bible teaches about hell is correct. For instance,

I see you can't express yourself on the topic without throwing out Bible verses, even when specifically asked to do so. Same old, same old..... yawn.....


Now bear in mind that Jesus is the one speaking.

Nooo, it's a 2,000 year old piece of paper that CLAIMS to be Jesus speaking. As a guy big on evidence, you ought to know that.


"Ubiquitoous"!! Wow.

It's a big word only to you which is surprising for a self-proclaimed high school principal ... hmmm. Plus you're not much of a speller, are you? More hmmm.... Get spelchek.

The evidence of your life suggests you are a perfectly intelligent, brave, and accomplished human being, so I treat you in that manner.
You treat EVERYONE who doesn't agree with you like a helpless, whiny baby.


you have allowed your political inclinations to influence your world view, you are going to be shocked, and it will be a great day.
I shouldn't love others and do what I can to help those who have been crushed by life and by other people?

You treat EVERYONE who doesn't agree with you like a helpless, whiny baby.If you mean I think everyone should be able to support their contentions with evidence, then I plead guilty.



you have allowed your political inclinations to influence your world view, you are going to be shocked, and it will be a great day.



I shouldn't love others and do what I can to help those who have been crushed by life and by other people?No. Those concepts come only from the Christian/Jewish faiths and it's wonderful you hold them. It's the ideas that transgenderism is fine, gay marriage is fine, homosexual behavior is fine, sex outside of marriage is fine, and abortion is fine that come from your political inclinations.

If you mean I think everyone should be able to support their contentions with evidence, then I plead guilty.
But you never accept any evidence.

No. Those concepts come only from the Christian/Jewish faiths and it's wonderful you hold them. It's the ideas that transgenderism is fine, gay marriage is fine, homosexual behavior is fine, ...that come from your political inclinations.
Once Adam and Eve ate that apple, the universe became open to unlimited possibilities. No more binary. I have a number of friends and some relatives who are in the LGBT+ community, and I love them dearly. Nope, no influence from political inclinations, just from living life for many years.

Try a little love, JL, not bashing Bibles on people's heads.

But you never accept any evidence.Such as when?


Once Adam and Eve ate that apple, the universe became open to unlimited possibilities. No more binary.Where does the Bible teach that there is "no more binary"? Does Jesus support your idea when he said, "Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ 5and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? " That sure sounds awfully binary, doesn't it? It's almost as though He is speaking to you. "Have you not heard? Wondergirl, have you not heard what God has said? Have you not heard?"

Such as when?
Always.

Where does the Bible teach that there is "no more binary"? Does Jesus support your idea when he said, "Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ 5and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? " It's almost as though He is speaking to you. "Have you not heard?"
Yes, the Creator made them male and female but that apple-eating episode queered the deal. Now the human, animal, and even plant world are no longer only binary.

You [we] have got to respect the right of people to be wrong and not create a big dissension over the differences.


Opps, Wrong thread. Maybe it applies here too?
Sorry. Carry on


P.S.
Yes, the Creator made them male and female but that apple-eating episode queered the deal.

Interesting, I'd like to know more?

I Had planned on doing a study that involved: The Apple (food aspect) being the Catalyst of sin (so to speak).
Remember- God didn't curse man.

If I may?

If I remember Correctly: Adam Did have Authority over Eve. (I'm not Sure if he knew it or not). Adam Declared his Authoritative position when He named Eve (just as he had done with the Animals), By naming her Eve, he recognized his Authority. If I'm not mistaken he named his Wife (Eve) after Sin had already entered into the World?

Sorry, Not sure where you were going with this binary thing, along with the "eating of the Apple."

I understand having to *Accept LGBQT Community. Jesus didn't hate anybody as far as I know?
There might be a problem when a country "Promotes" such business?
*Accept it sure, but why Promote it?

***(Acknowledge Sin. Be it- as in my life- as in yours)

Yes, the Creator made them male and female but that apple-eating episode queered the deal. Now the human, animal, and even plant world are no longer only binary.You and Athos are in the same boat. You can believe what Jesus said or not. You have rather clearly decided not to. Why? Because it does not agree with your political philosophy. If you are going about, as I'm sure you are, telling homosexuals that their lifestyle is just fine with God on the basis of a silly reading of Genesis 3, and in complete denial of what Jesus said, and not to mention Paul's reference to the same passage in Eph. 5, then I fear for you.

then I fear for you.

LOL. It never fails.

Laugh if you want. If Jesus is to be believed, then the day is approaching when laughing will not be an option.

If I may?If I remember Correctly: Adam Did have Authority over Eve. Now I'm not Sure if he knew it or not. Adam Declared his Authoritative position only when He named Eve (just as he had done with the Animals). If I'm not mistaken he named his Wife (Eve) after Sin had entered the World.
Gen. 3:20: And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

It was mentioned after the first sin, but it seems to read like a "by the way".


You and Athos are in the same boat. You can believe what Jesus said or not. You have rather clearly decided not to. Why? Because it does not agree with your political philosophy. If you are going about, as I'm sure you are, telling homosexuals that their lifestyle is just fine with God on the basis of a silly reading of Genesis 3, and in complete denial of what Jesus said, and not to mention Paul's reference to the same passage in Eph. 5, then I fear for you.
And you've studied bible hermeneutics???

And you've studied bible hermeneutics???I have, and certainly in sufficient manner to know that you do not follow those principles. You would be well advised to do so.

I have, and certainly in sufficient manner to know that you do not follow those principles. You would be well advised to do so.
I'm not a literalist.

Are you righthanded or lefthanded?

Of course you are. Everyone is a literalist. You can't live without being a literalist. When you order a hamburger, you expect to get...a hamburger.

Incidentally, I have never, nor shall I ever, bash "Bibles on people's heads." On the other hand, I will not intentionally misrepresent the clear teaching of the Bible simply to preserve a person's temporary happiness. Much better to accept the joy that comes from serving Jesus than to walk in temporary pleasure.

Of course you are. Everyone is a literalist. You can't live without being a literalist. When you order a hamburger, you expect to get...a hamburger.
No, I'm not. Neither is Arby's. If they are literalists, why did we order a roast beef sandwich, a gyro, and a beef 'n cheddar sandwich for supper and, after getting home, noticed they had put a fish sandwich into the bag too? If we are literalists, why did we eat the unordered fish sandwich?

Incidentally, I have never, nor shall I ever, bash "Bibles on people's heads."
You bash all the time with your cherry-picked and gotcha Bible verses.

On the other hand, I will not intentionally misrepresent the clear teaching of the Bible simply to preserve a person's temporary happiness. Much better to accept the joy that comes from serving Jesus than to walk in temporary pleasure.
You constantly misrepresent what the Bible says!

No, I'm not. Neither is Arby's. If they are literalists, why did we order a roast beef sandwich, a gyro, and a beef 'n cheddar sandwich for supper and, after getting home, noticed they had put a fish sandwich into the bag too? If we are literalists, why did we eat the unordered fish sandwich?That has nothing to do with being non-literal.


your cherry-picked and gotcha Bible verses.You know better than that. A verse or two or three can be cherry picking, but when you start speaking of multiples of ten, and especially when you have no scriptures that contradict them, then talking about cherry picking is just evasion.


You constantly misrepresent what the Bible says!Give an example.

WG, you know better. You know full well that you are not following the Bible. You honestly seem to not really know the Bible.

That has nothing to do with being non-literal.
You used a hamburger as an example.

You know better than that. A verse or two or three can be cherry picking, but when you start speaking of multiples of ten, and especially when you have no scriptures that contradict them, then talking about cherry picking is just evasion.

Give an example.

WG, you know better. You know full well that you are not following the Bible. You honestly seem to not really know the Bible.
I KNEW the chiding would begin again. Of course I'm following the Bible! I love you despite yourself.

Of course I'm following the Bible! I love you despite yourself.Right.

Once Adam and Eve ate that apple, the universe became open to unlimited possibilities. No more binary.
It's all binary. The beauty of binary is that there is no wiggle room. Nothing is fuzzy or unclear.
It's a Binary Gospel.

They are all binary.
Not any more! Humans, animals (both land and sea creatures), and plants are binary as well as non-binary.

It's a Binary Gospel.

It's a Binary Gospel.
How so? Please explain.

Not any more! Humans, animals (both land and sea creatures), and plants are binary as well as non-binary.And we return yet again to the tired, well-worn, and thoroughly discredited Genesis 3 argument.

The beauty of binary is that there is no wiggle room. Nothing is fuzzy or unclear. In binary computer code, ones are not zeros, and zeros are not ones. This binary nature is what makes the true Gospel clear in contrast to religion.


“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life” (John 5:24). Here you have two binary opposites. You have either passed from death to life and will escape judgment, or you haven’t.


“Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life” (1 John 5:24). Binary again. You either have the life in the Son or you don’t.


“For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,” (Colossians 1:13). You have been rescued or you haven’t. You are in the Kingdom or you are not.

The Scriptures are clear; it’s all of Jesus, or none of Him. IT’S BINARY.

Well said, Walter.

And we return yet again to the tired, well-worn, and thoroughly discredited Genesis 3 argument.
So why are humans, animals (both land and sea creatures), and plants binary as well as LGBT+?


The beauty of binary is that there is no wiggle room.
WIGGLE ROOM???

Why is my SIL gay? Why are several of my friends trans? (and be sure to ask them about the estrogen drugs their mothers received so they wouldn't miscarry)

So why are humans, animals (both land and sea creatures), and plants binary
You do realize you are agreeing with Walter in saying that?

I don't think your reference to Gen. 3 is altogether off except in two BIG ways.

1. You don't even believe the Gen. 3 account is literal, so it's hard to imagine how an imaginary story could explain what we find in the real world.

2. You use it to justify what the Bible repeatedly refers to as sin. If you want to say we are "broken" as a result of sin, then I would agree with that, but I would not agree with your attempt to normalize sin.

You do realize you are agreeing with Walter in saying that?

You do realize that's sarcasm, don't you? Uh oh, I forgot. Second graders aren't that advanced, yet.

You do realize you are agreeing with Walter in saying that?
I don't deny binary. There are also LGBT+ humans, animals, and plants. (Thanks for misquoting me, i.e., cherry-picking, as you do so well when quoting the Bible. I had said, "Not any more! Humans, animals (both land and sea creatures), and plants are binary as well as non-binary.")


I don't think your reference to Gen. 3 is altogether off except in two BIG ways.

1. You don't even believe the Gen. 3 account is literal, so it's hard to imagine how an imaginary story could explain what we find in the real world.

2. You use it to justify what the Bible repeatedly refers to as sin. If you want to say we are "broken" as a result of sin, then I would agree with that, but I would not agree with your attempt to normalize sin.
Are you right handed or left handed? Certainly all those lefties are broken and sinful because of their handedness, since God certainly created Adam and Eve as righties. And we should never make any attempt to correct birth defects because that would be "normalizing sin".

The Bible says birth defects and being left handed are sins???

I did not misquote you. In fact I used copy/paste.

The Bible says birth defects and being left handed are sins???
Birth defects are a result of our sinful condition, our brokenness. Thus, we do our best to either live with that situation or even try to correct them. The same is true of the LGBT+ community. They either live with their situation or try to correct it.


I did not misquote you. In fact I used copy/paste.
You had posted my quote as: "So why are humans, animals (both land and sea creatures), and plants binary."

I had said, "So why are humans, animals (both land and sea creatures), and plants binary as well as LGBT+?

WIGGLE ROOM???
While religion blurs the edges, the binary Gospel brings life into sharp focus.

While religion blurs the edges, the binary Gospel brings life into sharp focus.
Binary Gospel? Heaven or hell?

Binary Gospel? Heaven or hell?
Binary Gospel, Bible or Man?

Binary Gospel, Bible or Man?
Those aren't binaries.

I had said, "So why are humans, animals (both land and sea creatures), and plants binary as well as LGBT+?Maybe I'm missing something here. Walter says life is binary. In the quote above you agree with that, but then you introduce gays as an example of non-binary. So is life binary or not?

The Bible does not say birth defects are sinful. The Bible does say two men having sex is sinful.

There are also LGBT+ humans, animals, and plants.There are no transgender, gay, lesbian plants. Sexuality does not apply to plants. And before you respond, make sure you understand what sexuality is.

Did you ever figure out what truth is?

Maybe I'm missing something here. Walter says life is binary. In the quote above you agree with that, but then you introduce gays as an example of non-binary. So is life binary or not?
Life is both, a mix.

The Bible does not say birth defects are sinful. The Bible does say two men having sex is sinful.
No, it doesn't. And where's the "two women forbidden to have sex" verse? Where's the verse that says that a woman can't be given an estrogen-laced drug while pregnant so she won't miscarry and then her baby is born with a mix of sex organs or Klinefelter syndrome?

And where's the "two women forbidden to have sex" verse? It is contained in the teaching, present throughout the Bible, that sex is for marriage, and marriage is a joining of a man and a woman.


Where's the verse that says that a woman can't be given an estrogen-laced drug while pregnant so she won't miscarry and then her baby is born with a mix of sex organs or Klinefelter syndrome?Much more to the point, where is the verse where God gives His blessing to two men or two women being joined in a sexual union?

Why is my SIL gay? Why are several of my friends trans?How can a sister in law be gay without being married to your...sister? At any rate, Jesus is alive today and still changes lives today. Why are the men at the rescue center I go to all in addiction? Addiction is a really tough deal and is terribly destructive. I am certainly not going to go tell them that, because of Genesis 3, many possibilities have now been opened up and God approves of addiction and alcoholism. Instead, we tell them that Jesus is alive today, still changes lives, and He will change their lives as well.

You must ask yourself if you desire the approval of your SIL and trans friends more than you desire the approval of God.

How can a sister in law be gay without being married to your...sister?
She's my SIL because she's my husband's sister. She is legally married to a woman who has been the love of her life for over 35 years. Both were baptized as infants, attended Lutheran grade schools and high schools, and have lived a life of love for and giving to others.

WG asked yet again: Where's the verse that says that a woman can't be given an estrogen-laced drug while pregnant so she won't miscarry and then her baby is born with a mix of sex organs or Klinefelter syndrome?

JL tossed in this non-answer:
Much more to the point, where is the verse where God gives His blessing to two men or two women being joined in a sexual union?

WG explains: That has nothing to do with gay marriage. The mother was married to a man. Please look up DES to find out more about how trans people were produced from the '30s thru the '70s.

You must ask yourself if you desire the approval of your SIL and trans friends more than you desire the approval of God.
Approval??? Are you saying I must dump them as friends and disconnect from any relatives who are LGBT+ so God will approve of me and love me??

It is contained in the teaching, present throughout the Bible,

It seems like just yesterday you mocked patterns in the Bible as my explanation to you for the issue du jour. Now, since it suits you, you use the same argument to support your du jour issue re sexuality.

Two-faced?

She's my SIL because she's my husband's sister. She is legally married to a woman who has been the love of her life for over 35 years. Both were baptized as infants, attended Lutheran grade schools and high schools, and have lived a life of love for and giving to others.Nowhere in the Bible is infant baptism or attending Lutheran grade schools presented as the means of salvation. Has she repented and believed? If so, then why is she living in disobedience?


WG asked yet again: Where's the verse that says that a woman can't be given an estrogen-laced drug while pregnant so she won't miscarry and then her baby is born with a mix of sex organs or Klinefelter syndrome?Simply a foolish question.


JL tossed in this non-answer:
Much more to the point, where is the verse where God gives His blessing to two men or two women being joined in a sexual union?A very good, very pertinent question. The obvious answer is that it's found nowhere in the Bible.



Approval??? Are you saying I must dump them as friends and disconnect from any relatives who are LGBT+ so God will approve of me and love me??No. I'm saying you should tell them the truth.


It seems like just yesterday you mocked patterns in the Bible as my explanation to you for the issue du jour. When did that happen? Is this another one of those Navy stories?

Nowhere in the Bible is infant baptism or attending Lutheran grade schools presented as the means of salvation. Has she repented and believed? If so, then why is she living in disobedience?
They are the essence of Christian living and love.

Simply a foolish question.
Millions of parents who had trans children because of DES being given to the pregnant mom are eagerly awaiting your answer. Please research DES.


A very good, very pertinent question. The obvious answer is that it's found nowhere in the Bible.
"Found nowhere in the Bible" because that kind of sex was prostitution set up to bring in money to pagan temples.

No. I'm saying you should tell them the truth.
Tell them YOUR truth, you mean....

When did that happen? Is this another one of those Navy stories?

Interesting how selective your memory is. Except when it suits you to remember.

They are the essence of Christian living and love.No, they are not. Christian living is obedient living.


Millions of parents who had trans children because of DES being given to the pregnant mom are eagerly awaiting your answer. Please research DES.Says you. I am still waiting for an answer to those famous "broken chromosomes."


"Found nowhere in the Bible" because that kind of sex was prostitution set up to bring in money to pagan temples.It is found nowhere in the Bible.


Tell them YOUR truth, you mean....You still don't know what truth is.


Interesting how selective your memory is. Except when it suits you to remember.You have nothing. If you did, you would have already presented it. Just more fantasy.

No, they are not. Christian living is obedient living.
You have absolutely NO idea about their (or anyone's) "obedience" -- unless you go around with your binocs, peeking into bedroom windows.

I am still waiting for an answer to those famous "broken chromosomes."
"Diethylstilbestrol (DES), a synthetic estrogen, inhibits mitosis in mammalian cells and causes chromosome lagging or malorientation during recovery. Electron microscopy indicates that DES causes disruption of the mitotic spindle, centriole elongation, and unusual chromosome associations due to interkinetochore microtubules."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3913415/#:~:text=Diethylstilbestrol%20%28DES%29%2C%20a%20s ynthetic%20estrogen%2C%20inhibits%20mitosis%20in,a nd%20unusual%20chromosome%20associations%20due%20t o%20interkinetochore%20microtubules.

I'm going off of what you said. "She is legally married to a woman." That is plainly being disobedient to the Bible's definition of marriage. To be plainly disobedient to God is far removed from loving God. If I am cheating on my wife, I can't plead, "But I was baptized as an infant and attended a Lutheran grade school. Besides, I give money to charity and help other people." Yes, but it is rebellion against God.

You have nothing. If you did, you would have already presented it. Just more fantasy.

Oh I have something, Jl, and you know it. I'm waiting for you to acknowledge what you already know. In the meantime, you can sweat a little.

Sure you are. Just like any day now you are going to explain why you cut off the quote from Jesus in order to be deceitful. I'll post it AGAIN. You see, that's how it works. If someone seems to be deceitful, then you post it so they have a chance to clear up what might have been a simple misunderstanding. I have given you that chance multiple times. I don't play the "I'm waiting for the right time" game.


It's very simple. In the first quote, Jesus is speaking in the present tense of his time on earth. He did not come then for judgement but rather for salvation. The second speaks of the coming day of judgement when He will judge.

In a gross truncation of a quote which reminds me of your Aquinas debacle, you intentionally misrepresented what He said. The entire quote very nicely answers your question. It is startling that you did not, I suppose, bother to read it for yourself.

"47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. (present tense JL)

48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. (future tense JL)"

To be plainly disobedient to God is far removed from loving God.
Do you eat beef fat along with the meat? Bible says no. Do you eat shrimp? Bible says no. Do you eat pork? Bible says no. Do you drink a shake when eating a cheeseburger? No mixing of milk and meat! Have you ever masturbated? (another no-no)

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.No one is casting a stone, but you are doing those ladies no favors by telling them their lifestyle is fine with God. Give your opinion if you want to, but at least be honest enough to admit that it does not agree with the teaching of the Bible.

No one is casting a stone, but you are doing those ladies no favors by telling them their lifestyle is fine with God. Give your opinion if you want to, but at least be honest enough to admit that it does not agree with the teaching of the Bible.
I don't tell them their lifestyle is fine. The NT does.

It does? The NT says two women living together in marriage is fine? Where?

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
You can accept the sin in "their life" (putting up with it). Promoting such behavior, why?
Commit yourself to Christ Jesus.

It does? The NT says two women living together in marriage is fine? Where?
The Bible doesn't ban homosexuality. If you know anything about history and cultures, homosexuality was part of society's fabric during Jesus' time on earth. The word "homosexual" didn't wiggle into the Bible until 1946.

Jesus was a Hebrew rabbi -- and, atypically, unmarried. John was the disciple whom Jesus loved. Only one disciple had the courage to go with Jesus to his execution. That man clearly had a unique place in Jesus' heart. In all classic depictions of the Last Supper, John sits next to Jesus, very often his head resting on Jesus's breast. When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom He loved standing at the foot of the cross on which He was dying, He said to his mother, 'Woman behold your son!' Then He said to John, 'Behold your mother!' And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home."

Growing numbers of the LGBT+ community are or have become followers of Jesus – lay and even ordained. If Christian churches would more openly accept, embrace, and love them, even more in the LGBT+ community would become Christians.

Jesus was a Hebrew rabbi -- and, atypically, unmarried. John was the disciple whom Jesus loved. Only one disciple had the courage to go with Jesus to his execution. That man clearly had a unique place in Jesus' heart. In all classic depictions of the Last Supper, John sits next to Jesus, very often his head resting on Jesus's breast. When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing at the foot of the cross on which He was dying, He said to his mother, 'Woman behold your son!' Then He said to John, 'Behold your mother!' And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home."Jesus was not a formal rabbi, which is to say trained in a rabbinical school. He never married because He knew where His life was heading. It's really sickening that you can read what you did and come up with the conclusion that Jesus had a homosexual lover. That is stated NOWHERE in scripture and would have certainly been presented as a slam-dunk in the charges against Him during His trial. The uniform testimony of the Bible is that homosexual behavior is sinful. It is nowhere described as acceptable to God.

Your idea is strictly the conjecture of a person desperate to come up with some small shred of support for her own ideas.

If Christian churches would more openly accept,
A person doesn't join a Church, you are born into it.

"Diethylstilbestrol (DES), a synthetic estrogen, inhibits mitosis in mammalian cells and causes chromosome lagging or malorientation during recovery. Electron microscopy indicates that DES causes disruption of the mitotic spindle, centriole elongation, and unusual chromosome associations due to interkinetochore microtubules."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3913...20microtubules (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3913415/#:~:text=Diethylstilbestrol%20%28DES%29%2C%20a%20s ynthetic%20estrogen%2C%20inhibits%20mitosis%20in,a nd%20unusual%20chromosome%20associations%20due%20t o%20interkinetochore%20microtubules).You do realize that nowhere in the relatively short article you referenced does it say that DES causes transgenderism or even, for that matter, mentions TG or "broken chromosomes"? In other words, it provides your idea with no support at all.

You do realize that nowhere in the relatively short article you referenced does it say that DES causes transgenderism or even, for that matter, mentions TG or "broken chromosomes"? In other words, it provides your idea with no support at all.
Not even "disruption of the mitotic spindle, centriole elongation, and unusual chromosome associations due to interkinetochore microtubules"?

This was supposed to get your scientific mind interested enough in DES and what it is so you will investigate on your own. Guess I'll have to spoon-feed you.

Here ya go, JL.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/religioustolerance/2018/01/des-transgender/

https://transfemscience.org/articles/des-trans-etiology/

Here ya go, WG.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=who+is+god&cvid=067f6ec7063043e2a145e015ce5ae88f&aqs=edge.0.0l7.7165j0j1&pglt=299&FORM=ANNTA1&PC=U531

https://www.debate.org/opinions/is-it-wrong-to-be-lgbt

You should not have a relationship with the World. “Do not love the world or the things in the world.” Love for the World Pushes Out Love for the Father

Not even "disruption of the mitotic spindle, centriole elongation, and unusual chromosome associations due to interkinetochore microtubules"?Nope.


This was supposed to get your scientific mind interested enough in DES and what it is so you will investigate on your own. Guess I'll have to spoon-feed you.I have some bad news for you. I was a science major and a science teacher. You are not able to spoon feed anyone.

Broken chromosomes:
If a karyotype* shows a usual number and structure of chromosome set, it is known as a normal karyotype. Abnormal karyotype shows an unusual number or structurally malformed chromosomes in the karyotype.

*A karyotype is an individual's collection of chromosomes. (Karyotyping is the process by which photographs of chromosomes are taken in order to determine the chromosome complement of an individual.)

If someone seems to be deceitful, then you post it so they have a chance to clear up what might have been a simple misunderstanding.

Do you practice what you preach, Jl? I think not.

When will you post what shows your fraudulent nature?

Love for the World Pushes Out Love for the Father
The Father's Son said love God and each other.

From your own article. "The precise cause of gender transition is unknown." So much for your "broken chromosomes". The rest of the article puts out an unsupported idea that DES "might" be responsible for TG.

Is that really all you have? Really? Your second link is to a long-winded, largely meaningless "debate" that I'd bet you have not bothered to read yourself. Thankfully, it did allow me to vote "yes" that LGBT is morally wrong. Thanks for giving me that opportunity. Sadly, it provided nothing for your weird idea.

"Broken chromosomes" is still an unsupported idea fit only for non-science people like WG.

"Love not the world nor the things of the world."

You are not able to spoon feed anyone.
Open up, JL! Here comes the spoonful of facts and information about science you never studied or taught.

Do you practice what you preach, Jl? I think not.

When will you post what shows your fraudulent nature?Actually, I do practice what I preach. Here is your deceitful post again, still waiting for an explanation. I am happy to give you that chance.

It's very simple. In the first quote, Jesus is speaking in the present tense of his time on earth. He did not come then for judgement but rather for salvation. The second speaks of the coming day of judgement when He will judge.

In a gross truncation of a quote which reminds me of your Aquinas debacle, you intentionally misrepresented what He said. The entire quote very nicely answers your question. It is startling that you did not, I suppose, bother to read it for yourself.

"47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. (present tense JL)

48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. (future tense JL)"

"Broken chromosomes" is still an unsupported idea fit only for non-science people like WG.
Once a cherry picker always a cherry picker. I figured you wouldn't understand it or even try to.

Open up, JL! Here comes the spoonful of facts and information about science you never studied or taught.I'm afraid a spoonful is all you are capable of. Regardless, if you are going to post links, then post a quote from the links to show that it actually has content worth reading. Your first three were all losers.

Did you ever discover what "truth" is?

I would suggest you drop the "cherry picking" references. Honestly, it makes you appear to be completely stupid and desperate for something to say. You plainly don't even know what it means or how to illustrate it. I don't think you're stupid and it bothers me for you to present yourself in that manner.

I'm not sure what your getting at? We are all sinners. We are all rotten to the core!
Does it make a difference if you're a woman in a man's body?
Now, getting a sex change isn't what Jesus was talking about, when he talks about "Being Born again."
Get out of 'Self" and be born-again. Love your "Friends", support them but don't try and promote wrong behavior???

I'm afraid a spoonful is all you are capable of. Regardless, if you are going to post links, then post a quote from the links to show that it actually has content worth reading. Your first three were all losers.
But why? You don't read quotes.

I would suggest you drop the "cherry picking" references. Honestly, it makes you appear to be completely stupid and desperate for something to say. You plainly don't even know what it means or how to illustrate it. I don't think you're stupid and it bothers me for you to present yourself in that manner.
It's exactly what you do: cherry pick. You post only the parts that prove your point, even if you have to omit important words and phrases -- as you do with things I say.


Does it make a difference if you're a woman in a man's body?

I wish you could be born again as the male you are (but only on the outside) and with every part of your soul, mind, brain screaming, "I'm female!"

important words
Word! Bird is the Word.


I wish you could be born again as the male you are (but only on the outside) and with every part of your soul, mind, brain screaming "I'm female!"
Yes, either way, We must learn to master it.

Yes, We must learn to master it.
You can't. Dysphoria becomes the norm.

You can't
Sin becomes the norm. Become born again and you will experience the transformative power of the Holy spirit.
A person is not required to do anything other than Believe in Jesus. God will do the rest.

Sin becomes the norm. The Holy Spirit come in.
It isn't sin. Is being left-handed a sin? Being born blind is a sin?

Actually, I do practice what I preach.

No, Jl, you do not. You have a long history here of evading and dissembling. Not to speak of downright refusing to answer simple questions because they do not accord with your misunderstanding of the Bible.

Unable to compete with your own words, you usually hide behind the words of an ancient book claiming the words were spoken by Jesus although you have not a scintilla of proof they were spoken by him, rather than written down several centuries after Jesus lived.

This is a fact. A fact which you fraudulently claim as "proof" of not believing the Bible. When will you man up and admit the truth of this? I admire Waltero who has been honest on the issue of hell. You should imitate him.

But why? You don't read quotes.I read your last three articles. There was nothing there to support your idea.


It's exactly what you do: cherry pick. You post only the parts that prove your point, even if you have to omit important words and phrases -- as you do with things I say.


It's exactly what you do: cherry pick. You post only the parts that prove your point, even if you have to omit important words and phrases -- as you do with things I say. That's not what cherry picking is.


No, Jl, you do not. You have a long history here of evading and dissembling. Not to speak of downright refusing to answer simple questions because they do not accord with your misunderstanding of the Bible.

Unable to compete with your own words, you usually hide behind the words of an ancient book claiming the words were spoken by Jesus although you have not a scintilla of proof they were spoken by him, rather than written down several centuries after Jesus lived.

This is a fact. A fact which you fraudulently claim as "proof" of not believing the Bible. When will you man up and admit the truth of this? I admire Waltero who has been honest on the issue of hell. You should imitate him.Blah, blah, blah. You're done Athos. You will not defend your own offense, and you cannot show mine. You're finished until you man up and do it.

As to what I "hide behind", I give you the words of Christ. If that's not good enough for you, then I can help you.

You can't. Dysphoria becomes the norm.
I understand. I'll but out. Your quick fix might not be the best option.

Completely misrepresenting the message of the Bible is always a bad idea. Now she has Jesus with a homosexual lover. Unreal.

I understand. I'll but out. Your quick fix might not be the best option.
What's my quick fix? (P.S. there isn't one.)

Now she has Jesus with a homosexual lover. Unreal.
How does one respond to such a statement? Guess this is a good time for me to withdraw.

Completely misrepresenting the message of the Bible is always a bad idea. Now she has Jesus with a homosexual lover. Unreal.
Why didn't he marry at 15-16 like Jewish males did back then?

How does one respond to such a statement?Good question.


Guess this is a good time for me to withdraw.I think that's a mistake.


Why didn't he marry at 15-16 like Jewish males did back then?Has already been answered above.

You must believe that God is in charge, he has provided us with his
Word, fully intact and true.

If the Bible's spiritual faculty, whose proper work it is to give
light, be itself diseased—if it discerns not singly but doubly, and
therefore dimly—then the whole life also is shrouded in gloom. If that
is the case with the higher life, what will be the state of the lower!

The Bible is not with error.

Blah, blah, blah.

Those are your typical words (blah, blah, blah) when you can't come up with a coherent honest reply. We're all used to it by now.


As to what I "hide behind", I give you the words of Christ.

No, you give me the written down words 300 years after the fact. Your refusall to see that tells us volumes about your intellectual capacity.


If that's not good enough for you, then I can help you.

Pretty weak on the proofreading, too. Did you mean "can't"?

You must believe that God is in charge
God gave mankind free will.

If that is the case with the higher life, what will be the state of the lower!
We aren't living in the "higher life".

The Bible is not with error.
Of course it is! Compare the many versions! We don't have the original text, just translations that have incorrectly translated words and phrases. And each denomination has a favorite version that may not be (is not?) accepted by other denominations.

Of course it is!

Does this make any sense to you at all;
Man's life is the only life shrouded in darkness.

If the Bible's spiritual faculty, whose proper work it is to give
light, be itself diseased—if it discerns not singly but doubly, and
therefore dimly—then the whole life also is shrouded in gloom. If that
is the case with the higher life, what will be the state of the lower!

If the light that is in man be darkness, the darkness how great will it be!

If the Bible (if ever there was a Bible) be from God, it would remain, as it was meant to be. What would a book that is shrouded in darkness bring for Humanity?

Does this make any sense to you at all
Nope. Please type it in short, simple sentences.

If the Bible (if ever there was a Bible) be from God, it would remain, as it was meant to be. What would a book that is shrouded in darkness bring for Humanity?
And man has free will to change words and phrases and meanings to suit his own understanding and preferences. E.g., the Greek word for pedophile was changed to homosexual in 1946.

Paul's neologism, arrsenokoitai, used a Greek word coined from Lev 20:13, which was already understood in Jewish circles and educated Greek circles as a reference to shrine prostitution. Paul's neologism means exploitative pederasty.

Your saying God has thrown a monkey wrench into his work.
The four copies of the Bible I have in My house, are the Original manuscripts, God has preserved them for me.


And man has free will to change words
And that is why Man's word is not the Word of God.

WORD!

Your saying God has thrown a monkey wrench into his work.
And that is where you have the Book of Mormon. Throw it out.
The four copies of the Bible I have in My house are the Original manuscripts.
God has preserved them for me.
There are no original manuscripts. The Dead Sea scrolls are the earliest found so far.

The monkey wrench? God gave mankind free will, and mankind has run with it.

Book of Mormon?

monkey wrench?
You think man is able to throw a monkey wrench into the works?

It is God's plan. His Word is Is true. God would not be able to throw a monkey wrench into his work no more than man could.
You would go wrong believing man has a hand in all this.

My permanent response.

Blah, blah, blah. You're done Athos. You will not defend your own offense, and you cannot show mine. You're finished until you man up and do it.

It's very simple. In the first quote, Jesus is speaking in the present tense of his time on earth. He did not come then for judgement but rather for salvation. The second speaks of the coming day of judgement when He will judge.

In a gross truncation of a quote which reminds me of your Aquinas debacle, you intentionally misrepresented what He said. The entire quote very nicely answers your question. It is startling that you did not, I suppose, bother to read it for yourself.

"47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. (present tense JL)

48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. (future tense JL)"


And man has free will to change words and phrases and meanings to suit his own understanding and preferences. E.g., the Greek word for pedophile was changed to homosexual in 1946.

Paul's neologism, arrsenokoitai, used a Greek word coined from Lev 20:13, which was already understood in Jewish circles and educated Greek circles as a reference to shrine prostitution. Paul's neologism means exploitative pederasty.Completely untrue. The Greek "arsyn" in arsenokoitai refers to a grown man, not a young boy. Your idea is ridiculous. The word literally means "men in bed". And prior to homosexual, the operative expression was, "abusers of themselves with mankind".

You think man is able to throw a monkey wrench into the works?

It is God's plan. His Word is Is true. God would not be able to throw a monkey wrench into his work no more than man could.

Man's word...bogus.
Yes, if you study Bible hermeneutics, you will find many, many instances where man has messed with the translation of words and phrases. The Bible has been translated and copied and recopied for millennia. And we don't have the original writings.

Yes, if you study Bible hermeneutics, you will find many, many instances where man has messed with the translation of words and phrases.That is not hermeneutics. There are not "many, many" such instances. There are some, but they are now well known and several modern translations actually point the passages out. In no case do they impact any major doctrine of the Bible.

If you hold the Bible in such disdain, why in the world do you pay any attention to it?

That is not hermeneutics.
Hermeneutics: the branch of knowledge that deals with interpretation, especially of the Bible or literary texts.

Yes, the "interpretation" of the Bible, but not the "translation" of the Bible. They are by no means the same thing. They are not even close.


many, many instances where man has messed with the translation of words and phrases.

Here we go.
Higher life- Bible's spiritual faculty
Lower life- Man's life, shrouded in darkness.
God- Highest life- spoken Word
Bible- higher life- no darkness, sole purpose is to give light.
Man- Lower life- Needs guidance.

If the Bible is diseased (by man's darkness, while scribing the Bible)—if it discerns not singly but doubly, and therefore dimly—then the whole life also is shrouded in gloom.

If that's the case with the higher life [bible], what will be the state of the lower [man]!
How then is the Higher life going to bring light to the lower life?
If in fact the Bible is diseased, thereby rendering the Bible totally irrelevant!

Yes, the "interpretation" of the Bible, but not the "translation" of the Bible. They are by no means the same thing. They are not even close.
Mr. Nit Picker when he isn't picking cherries.

Oh don't be foolish. They don't even remotely mean the same thing. You just missed it and it's that simple. Man you guys can be irritating in your absolute stubbornness. If you don't know the difference between translating the Bible versus interpreting the Bible, then talk about libraries or knitting or something you do know about.

I thought for sure you might gain some insight.


If the Bible is diseased (by man's darkness, while scribing the Bible)—if it discerns not singly but doubly, and therefore dimly—then the whole life also is shrouded in gloom.

If that's the case with the higher life [bible], what will be the state of the lower [man]!
How then is the Higher life going to bring light to the lower life?
If in fact the Bible is diseased; rendering the Bible totally irrelevant!

We all have to make that decision some point in our life. I hope you don't wait too long. Holding onto this world and the life you cherish is a bad situation to be in.

Man you guys can be irritating in your absolute stubbornness.
Yeah, translation is wrong here and there too, but when I've mentioned that, you kicked dirt in my face.

Yes, you definitely can be irritating in your absolute stubbornness.

My permanent response.

Oh, if that were only true, and it was your FINAL response.


It's very simple.

Etc. etc., etc. Repetition is simply another form of blah, blah, blah..... Will you ever learn?

Your exasperating WG. We all have to make a decision sometime in our life. I hope you don't wait too long. Holding onto this world and the life you cherish is a bad situation to be in.
Whatever you had quoted before you said the above wasn't said by me. It sounds like you wrote all that. Here is the quote I'm talking about:
"If the Bible is diseased (by man's darkness, while scribing the Bible)—if it discerns not singly but doubly, and therefore dimly—then the whole life also is shrouded in gloom.

If that's the case with the higher life [bible], what will be the state of the lower [man]!
How then is the Higher life going to bring light to the lower life?
If in fact the Bible is diseased, thereby rendering the Bible totally irrelevant!"

I've been a Christian all my life. My earthly journey is almost over. I look forward to again seeing my parents and other relatives, my friends who predeceased me, and especially my younger son who died three years ago from a pulmonary embolism.

I've been a Christian all my life. My earthly journey is almost over. I look forward to again seeing my parents and other relatives, my friends who predeceased me, and especially my younger son who died three years from a pulmonary embolism. It sounds like you give your all, helping the ones you love. Let's hope were not standing with the Goats when greeting our loved ones for the final time. I look forward to heaven and giving praise to my GOD. What a wonderful feeling!

I always feel the need to give up this life (just get up and walk away) but I enjoy my family and friends too much.

It sounds like you give your all, helping the ones you love. Let's hope were not standing with the Goats when greeting our loved ones for the final time. I look forward to heaven and giving praise to my GOD. What a wonderful feeling!

I always feel the need to give up this life (just get up and walk away) but I enjoy my family and friends too much.
Here's a story I wrote about my guardian angel who's still with me. We'll get to Heaven before you will, so look me up and we'll introduce you around.

AngelWolf: A True Story
by
Wondergirl, c2015

I’m five years old.
My guardian angel is AngelWolf.
He’s my special friend.
He’s tall and strong.
He wears a long white angel robe over his thick gray fur.
His ears stick up through his halo.
Sometimes when he wiggles his ears, his halo falls off.
That makes me giggle.

Only I can see AngelWolf.
Oh, and God can see him, too.
And the other angels, of course.

Mommy can’t see AngelWolf.
“Mommy, you’re sitting on AngelWolf’s lap!”

Daddy can’t see AngelWolf.
“Daddy, you’re standing on AngelWolf’s foot!”

When it’s time for lunch, AngelWolf and I sit at my little table.
AngelWolf is too big for the little chair.
His knees stick up almost to his chin.
His angel skirt bunches up around his legs.
He looks silly, but I don’t dare laugh.
I don’t want to hurt his feelings.
(Mommy and Daddy say, “Be kind to people and animals.”)
Also, I don’t want AngelWolf to be mad at me.

Mommy sets out two placemats with pictures of flowers on them.
Then she puts out two little plates, one for me and one for AngelWolf.
Mommy folds napkins in half the long way,
Puts one to the right of each little plate,
Makes pb&j sandwiches on soft Wonder white bread,
But refuses to cut off the crusts.
“That would be wasteful,” she says.
Daddy says crusts put hair on your chest.
(I don’t think I want hair on my chest, but AngelWolf doesn’t mind more hair on his.)
Then she cuts the sandwiches into triangles especially for AngelWolf and me.
She puts the sandwich triangles on the little plates.
(AngelWolf apparently eats his triangles and the crusts because they always disappear.)

AngelWolf takes a nap when Darlene Hayes comes over to play with me.
Darlene lives right up the hill in a big white house.
She’s my best friend (except for AngelWolf, of course).
She has a Cocker Spaniel puppy.
When I go to her house, we comb the puppy’s curly ear fur.

But AngelWolf always stays next to me when Kenneth is around.
Kenneth lives next door.
Kenneth is the neighborhood bully.
He is fat.
And he is mean!

Once he pushed my tricycle into the ditch next to the street.
I ran home crying.
Another time, he even tried to cut down our brick house.
He used silver school scissors to saw at a corner.
How dare he hurt my house!
Screaming for Mommy, I ran into the house.
“Make Kenneth stop!”
She stuck her head out of the back door and told Kenneth to go home.
He looked at me and made mad faces.
“You’ll be sorry,” he said.
AngelWolf protects me from Kenneth.
Sometimes Kenneth walks toward our house.
AngelWolf whispers to me to go indoors.
I do.
Then I am safe.

Another time, Daddy was in the driveway.
He was backing up the car to go someplace.
He’s a Lutheran pastor so he was probably going to do pastor work.
He didn’t see me.
I was behind the car on my tricycle.
AngelWolf was sitting on the grass and watching me.
Daddy felt a bump as he knocked me over.
AngelWolf shouted at Daddy, “Stop the car!”
Daddy must have heard AngelWolf yelling
’Cause he stopped the car and quickly got out.
He picked me up.
I was crying.
But I was okay.
And my trike was okay, too.

When I was a grownup, AngelWolf would ride shotgun when I drove to my public library job. He and I had a lot of fun challenging each other with Dewey Decimal duels or reciting Bible verses. (I always won the Dewey Decimal duels, and AngelWolf always won the Bible-verse challenges. AngelWolf taught me a memory trick that the Flood story is mostly in Genesis 7. The number 7 looks like a faucet that water – a “flood” -- comes out of. Ha ha! Now you won’t forget either.)

The years went by fast.
Now it’s 2015.
AngelWolf and I are retired.
We nap a lot.
Sometimes we text each other just for fun. (We have cell phones and are so modern!)
But we still eat pb&j sandwiches cut into triangles.
And we still eat the crusts.

For a change of pace, we put on SueBee honey instead of jelly.
And now we eat 100% whole wheat bread and take vitamin D3.
AngelWolf and I are very “with it”: we read e-books on our Kindles.
We watch “Jeopardy” and “Big Bang Theory.”
We still have Dewey Decimal duels and Bible-verse challenges now and then.

Someday I will die and AngelWolf will fly with me in his arms up to Heaven.
In Heaven, we will still be best friends.
Maybe in Heaven we won’t have to eat crusts.

Wow. I jumped from the first page of this thread to the last one and apparently didn't miss a bloomin' thing in between.

Come on, children. How about we try sticking to topics?

"Faith" is a lousy word for it, because the English word has become so watered-down as to be virtually meaningless. Unfortunately, we don't have a better one yet, though I tend to prefer "trust."

Actual faith has a defined basis. I don't have faith that my car will get me from point A to point B because I just blindly figure it will cuz it's a car. The faith I have in my car is based on how I maintain it, its past performance, regular checkups, and all the rest. Faith in God is similar.

If it doesn't have some kind of basis that at least justifies its consideration, it's not faith/trust. It's assumption, usually more like presumption. When Bob Harrington declared that he believes in God because he wants to, it set pop-level apologetics back by a decade. It was a stupid statement, because one can say the same thing about the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

If we want to examine biblical faith, we need to look at the people who had it, especially the apostles. Athos, you were mistaken about one thing: we have a fair idea when the gospels were written and all were written before the close of the first century. We have manuscript fragments of them going back as far as the first quarter of the second century, which is the terminus ad quem for their composition.

What was the basis of the apostles' faith, a faith that was unshakable to the point of giving up their lives?

Jesus' resurrection. They witnessed their leader risen from death. He declared that his resurrection proved that he is the way to God. For that matter, his resurrection is the ultimate proof of the existence of God. It transformed them from a defeated, lost group of working men into a band of preachers who changed the entire world.

One of the door-knocking missionaries once tried to tell me that you can tell something is true by how it makes you feel. Also wrong. That's faith in your own internal organs, and what you feel might be God and it might be too much pizza. Genuine faith has a solidly defined object as well as a solidly defined basis.

For Christianity, the person of Jesus constitutes both. The historical probability that he really rose from the dead is the basis, and the person who rose and told us about himself is the object. He said to trust him to be our reconciliation to God, and to prove that trust by a lifestyle that focuses on others in his name.

In fact, the entire Bible can be summed up in two words: "Trust me."

Okay, for the pedantic among us (of whom I am chief!), two words and some punctuation.

That's what I have to offer.

One of the door-knocking missionaries once tried to tell me that you can tell something is true by how it makes you feel. Also wrong. That's faith in your own internal organs, and what you feel might be God and it might be too much pizza. Genuine faith has a solidly defined object as well as a solidly defined basis.

For Christianity, the person of Jesus constitutes both. The historical probability that he really rose from the dead is the basis, and the person who rose and told us about himself is the object. He said to trust him to be our reconciliation to God, and to prove that trust by a lifestyle that focuses on others in his name.Well said.

One of the door-knocking missionaries once tried to tell me that you can tell something is true by how it makes you feel. Also wrong. That's faith in your own internal organs, and what you feel might be God and it might be too much pizza. Genuine faith has a solidly defined object as well as a solidly defined basis.
Well said. ditto.

The person who rose and told us about himself is the object. Who did Jesus tell?

Prove that trust by a lifestyle that focuses on others in his name. My take on it is a bit different; Love that trust, by a lifestyle that focuses on him. ("focusing on others")- If you are well liked, something is amiss?

@dwashbur:
I just seen your post (crazy, it just popped up?!?) I thought the Above Quotes were from WG. I believe we are saying the same thing...hard to tell where WG is coming from half the time.

@WG
It really Bothers me that a self proclaimed Christian doesn't put much faith in the written Word...And that's alright I suppose. Jesus said a little faith can move a mountain.

It really Bothers me that a self proclaimed Christian doesn't put much faith in the written Word...And that's alright I suppose.It is one thing to not put much faith in the written word. It is an entirely different matter to live in opposition to the written word.


Jesus said a little faith can move a mountain.I think a fair reading of that passage shows that Jesus did not at all say that.

@WG
It really Bothers me that a self proclaimed Christian doesn't put much faith in the written Word...And that's alright I suppose. Jesus said a little faith can move a mountain.
waltero, I don't understand why you continue to analyze and measure my faith.

Here's a question for you: 1) How does a Christian express his/her faith?

And a related question: 2) How does a Christian express his/her faith so that other Christians are satisfied that it's real and sufficient?

God has promised to preserve his Word. He has done that. We can be assured that the true Word is in the world and will survive no matter how many try to mess it up.

It appears that you are standing in opposition to the written word (should I be bothered)? Standing on God’s Word is a choice.
How does a Christian express his/her faith?
It goes far beyond our own personal Faith. We don't try to express "our" faith to others. Has More to do with Expressing the Gospel.
(The proclamation of the Gospel is surrounded with marks of respect and honor.)

I get it, you don't want to offend anybody. You are able to stand up for the LGBTQ community, that's fine. But to promote it?
Often times "our faith" get's in the way.

It appears that you are standing in opposition to the written word (should I be bothered)? Standing on God’s Word is a choice.
How on earth did you ever come up with that about me?!

It goes far beyond our own personal Faith. We don't try to express "our" faith to others.
That's the whole first effort in mission work, in evangelizing -- to share what faith means to me and how it helps me.

I get it, you don't want to offend anybody. You are able to stand up for the LGBTQ community, that's fine. But to promote it?
Often times "our faith" get's in the way.
Huh???"offend"? -- that never crossed my mind! "promote it" [the LGBT+ community]? -- it's not a choice, waltero!

How on earth did you ever come up with that about me?!
Post #131, Disturbing (No need to respond). You should chickadee check yourself, before you rickadee wreck yourself.
Just saying.

Post #131, Disturbing
I'd write it again. In fact, I expressed it very well. What's disturbing?

Come on, children. How about we try sticking to topics?

Maybe if you showed up here more than once a month and lost that patronizing attitude, we children would do better.


"Faith" is a lousy word for it, I tend to prefer "trust."

"Faith" is an excellent word whose meaning is well understood by all. "Trust" in this case is a woosy word and does not convey the strength of faith.


If it doesn't have some kind of basis that at least justifies its consideration, it's not faith/trust. It's assumption, usually more like presumption.

True enough, but I don't think the evangelicals will appreciate your use of "some kind of basis" or "at least justifies" or "consideration". For the evangelicals, they are weak words and phrases in this instance.


Athos, you were mistaken about one thing: we have a fair idea when the gospels were written and all were written before the close of the first century. We have manuscript fragments of them going back as far as the first quarter of the second century

I never said otherwise. Please grant me the respect of being honest (or more careful) re what I posted here.

Of course they were written before the close of the first century. But those autographs are long lost. The fragments you cite are just that - fragments. They consist of tiny sections of the Gospels and, being so fragmentary, they are of little help in determining the accuracy of the earliest COMPLETE copies we possess. These earliest copies (copies of copies of copies) date to several CENTURIES after the events described. This is more than enough time for scribal errors, edits, and/or changes in the narratives to suit the Church agenda of the day.


His resurrection is the ultimate proof of the existence of God.

I don't deny that. But this is a matter of faith - the word "proof" is out of place here.


It transformed them from a defeated, lost group of working men into a band of preachers who changed the entire world.

Well, not the ENTIRE world. And certainly not within the lifetime of those lost working men, which is the implication of your sentence.


The historical probability that he really rose from the dead is the basis

Hardly "historical, and I notice you use the word "probability".


He said to trust him to be our reconciliation to God, and to prove that trust by a lifestyle that focuses on others

Others here say that the focus should be on Jesus, not on others. I think your focus is the correct one, but let's not quibble with the others.


In fact, the entire Bible can be summed up in two words: "Trust me."

Well, I'll quibble with this one. That's a gross exaggeration, but if hyperbole - OK.


That's what I have to offer.

Thank you for participating. Speaking for at least some of the others, I hope it won't be so long before you offer again. A Biblical scholar is always welcome here.

LGBT+ community are or have become followers of Jesus – lay and even ordained. If Christian churches would more openly accept, embrace, and love them, even more in the LGBT+ community would become Christians. Should Churches become recruiting stations?


If Christian churches would more openly accept, embrace, and love them  Where's the love. Why don't Churches love and accept their lifestyle? 


LGBT+ community are or have become followers of Jesus  Whom are they focused on? Who is willing to be transformed?

Luke 14:26Whoever comes to me and does not hate his father and his mother and his brothers and his sisters and his wife and his children and even himself, he cannot be my disciple.
Matthew 19:29 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

Should Churches become recruiting stations?
Cf. the Great Commission, Matthew 28:19-20.

Where's the love. Why don't Churches love and accept their lifestyle?
Because far too many Churches/Christians don't know and understand the science of what happens during a pregnancy. Being lesbian or bi or gay or trans or intersex is NOT a choice!

Whom are they focused on? Are they willing to be transformed? NO.
Yes and many have been, have even become Christian ministers and teachers.

Edited:

Luke 14:26Whoever comes to me and does not hate his father and his mother and his brothers and his sisters and his wife and his children and even himself, he cannot be my disciple.
Matthew 19:29 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.


and even himself, he cannot be my disciple.
Umm, I'm guessing they Don't hate themselves or their lifestyle.


Being lesbian or bi or gay or trans or intersex is NOT a choice! Your Science is Bunk! Make a choice. Sorry, I'm going with Jesus on this one.

Edited:

Luke 14:26Whoever comes to me and does not hate his father and his mother and his brothers and his sisters and his wife and his children and even himself, he cannot be my disciple.
You put a double negative in there, so it means the opposite of what you probably intended. Oh, I see Luke did that too. Soooo, we have to hate in order to be Jesus' disciple?

Umm, I'm guessing they Don't hate themselves or their lifestyle.
It's NOT a lifestyle. And yes, they do hate themselves. The medical and psychiatric literature call it dysphoria ("a profound state of unease or dissatisfaction...the opposite of euphoria. In a psychiatric context, dysphoria may accompany depression, anxiety or agitation." Online dictionary)

Your Science is Bunk! Sorry, I'm going with Jesus on this one. Make a choice.
Jesus would have been the first to sit and talk and eat with anyone from that community.

There is very little evidence of a genetic connection to being “born” gay. Having sex with whomever is ALWAYS a choice.

There is very little evidence of a genetic connection to being “born” gay. Having sex with whomever is ALWAYS a choice.
Mr. Science Teacher, read up on this. Read about hormones that affect the developing fetus during pregnancy. Google "is gay a choice" or "is transgender a choice" and read scientific documents/articles.

Jesus would have been the first to sit and talk and eat with anyone from that community.
Yet they can't even talk about what they do in private!

Hormones are great, lets feed them to our children, good Idea!

WG, Loving this world leads to death. You really should think about what it is your setting yourself up for.
This world is not your friend.

Yet they can't even talk about what they do!
Who can't talk about what they do? (Do???)


Hormones are great, lets feed them to our children, good Idea!
We do, all the time.

WG I have already studied the subject. I have no intention of doing your googling for you.

WG I have already studied the subject. I have no intention of doing your googling for you.
No, you haven't studied it!!! Gimme a break! Do you even know a transgender person? If you do, have you asked that person honest, thoughtful questions?

Rather than have you spit on my choices of sites, here's a golden opportunity for you to let go of your religious prejudices by doing your own research!

Do you even know a transgender person? If you do, have you asked that person honest, thoughtful questions? I think you spend far too much time with these people.

I think you spend far too much time with these people.
I spend more time dealing with you. All of "these people" have heartbreaking stories.

Are they willing to be transformed?
Yes and many have beenAt what cost?

Whom are they focused on? Are they willing to be transformed?
Yes and many have been, have even become Christian ministers and teachers.Is it possible they have been given over to a reprobate mind?

Giving them over to a reprobate mind.
Not at all! How do you figure?

Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Do what things? If you were born transgender, then what?

If your were born Human, then what?

If your were born Human, then what?
Exactly! Transgenders are born human and are transgender because of prenatal changes due to hormone influences either during the pregnancy months from mom and/or because of meds given by the OB to prevent miscarriage.

If your were born Human, then what?
Be Born again!!!

Be Born again!!!
And many have been! Now our mission is to reach and teach those who haven't been.

Transgenders are born human and are transgender because of prenatal changes due to hormone influences either during the pregnancy months from mom and/or because of meds given by the OB to prevent miscarriage.
So what does this have to do with anything?

I think it's great that other churches leave their doors open for us, But I really don't like what they say, so I will become Born again, and create the reformed church of gays - Create a place where our old selves can come together and believe.

No, you haven't studied it!!! Gimme a break! Do you even know a transgender person? If you do, have you asked that person honest, thoughtful questions?

Rather than have you spit on my choices of sites, here's a golden opportunity for you to let go of your religious prejudices by doing your own research!You are doing what people with no data and no support do. Resort to personal attacks and challenge the other person to go look for data.

You are doing what people with no data and no support do. Resort to personal attacks and challenge the other person to go look for data.
Ah, you DON'T know a transgender person nor are you willing to find out the truth. Talk about no data and no support...!

Ah, you DON'T know a transgender person nor are you willing to find out the truth. Talk about no data and no support...!
You can't handle the truth. You are so focused on finding the truth of transgenders, that you miss the only truth, entirely.


Ah, you DON'T know a transgender person
In this day and age, is that even possible?

You make a claim you cannot support. When I call you on it, you get mad. Too bad.

I already know the truth and have already told you the truth. There is practically no evidence to support the idea that there is a genetic connection to being gay or TG.

You make a claim you cannot support. When I call you on it, you get mad. Too bad.
I'm not mad. I'm laughing at your unwillingness to open your mind.

I already know the truth and have already told you the truth. There is practically no evidence to support the idea that there is a genetic connection to being gay or TG.
I'll sit quietly while you do some honest research.

WG said: Ah, you DON'T know a transgender person

waltero said:
In this day and age, is that even possible?
Very much so. Let me know when you are willing to do honest research with and questioning of one (or more).

You make an unsupported, ridiculous claim and I'M THE ONE who is supposed to do your research for you?

You live in a strange world.

You make an unsupported, ridiculous claim and I'M THE ONE who is supposed to do your research for you?

You live in a strange world.
I don't need the research. You do. And you spit on whatever I come up with.

You come up with nothing.

Just to be clear, I have nothing but sympathy for those who are victims of unnatural sexual desires or gender confusion. I have no interest in judging or condemning them. However, nor do I have an interest in getting them to believe that the Bible approves of their lifestyles or problems when it plainly does not. There are many sexual urges out there that are urgent and seem natural to those who carry them out, but that is not the determining factor. Does God approve? That is the primary question. The life-changing power of Jesus to bring healing, joy, peace and happiness is the real answer.

Just to be clear, I have nothing but sympathy for those who are victims of unnatural sexual desires or gender confusion. I have no interest in judging or condemning them. However, nor do I have an interest in getting them to believe that the Bible approves of their lifestyles or problems when it plainly does not. There are many sexual urges out there that are urgent and seem natural to those who carry them out, but that is not the determining factor. Does God approve? That is the primary question. The life-changing power of Jesus to bring healing, joy, peace and happiness is the real answer.
Now tell Mother Nature that. Be sure to give her a good scolding on top of it! And throw in that I'm not real happy that she took my younger son away three years ago and blessed my older son with autism.

Now tell Mother Nature that. Be sure to give her a good scolding on top of it! And throw in that I'm not real happy that she took my younger son away three years ago and blessed my older son with autism
Nope, Nothing Worldly here.

Very sorry for the loss of your son. Lost a beloved nephew a year ago. I preached his funeral. Felt kind of bad about that as I started crying probably half a dozen times. Those things are painful.

Nope, Nothing Worldly here.
We groan under the weight of these injuries and losses simply because Adam and Eve wanted to be like God and thus they sampled the forbidden fruit. You're very young. Someday you will understand.

We groan under the weight of these injuries and losses simply because Adam and Eve wanted to be like God and thus they sampled the forbidden fruit.It certainly allowed sin and wickedness to enter in and spread wildly. Did it make those things acceptable? Not at all.

You come up with nothing Mother nature knows nothing.