Keep up the good fight Lori . The children of Chi-town deserve it .

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/537380-chicago-mayor-knocks-teachers-union-after-80-plus-meetings-we-are-out-of

I think the mayor has done about everything she can do short of ramp up her vaccine supply. That's out of her control unless she takes shots from others to give to the teachers. So far the CDC has said school openings are safe as long as certain guidelines are met and they will issue more in depth guidelines in a week, but the data so far is on her side for now. We'll know more next week.

The teacher's unions do not have the best interests of the children on their agenda .
Essential workers all over the country have been on the job since the beginning . Are teachers essential as they claim or not ?

It is illegal for them to strike . If they persist then I think Mayor Lightfoot should do a Reagan and fire them . Hiring new teachers would not be an issue . New applicants would come in droves . Asked why Chicago’s teachers would threaten to strike now, Quid's chief of staff, Ron Klain, answered, “money.”At least he is honest about their motives .

Unions are resisting opening in Los Angeles, Boston, Cleveland, Philadelphia and Washington. Michael Mulgrew, head of the teachers union in NYC, says the schools may not open until September. UNACCEPTABLE !!!

Private schools are open for business and there is no data suggesting teachers are at a higher risk there . The same is true of the public schools that have reopened .

Parents are supporting these schools with their tax dollars . If their children are not being educated by them then it is theft . Enrollment in California’s public schools has dropped by 155,000 students, . Enrollment in NYC is down 43,000,

The broader subject it that it is well past the time to reevaluate the public school system that has been in place for over a century . Even before the pandemic parents were becoming increasingly unsatisfied with the level of education their children were receiving . They are voting with their feet . Those that can have been taking their childen out of the public system
National School Choice Week (https://schoolchoiceweek.com/learning-pods/)

The national associations for private schools and home schooling report significant, recent increases in enrollments . So do Catholic schools which is a big turn around for them as the church had been shutting some of them down. This continues a trend that started almost a generation ago as minority students were being pulled out of inner city public schools using scholarship ,vouchers to send them to charter and private schools .

Given these facts you would think that the party of progressive change would jump aboard the idea of school reform . But no ;they are beholden to the unions that have a vested interest in maintaining status quo where the teachers are in the front of the bus ;and the children in the rear .

Another service to your conservative bonafides? Big biz, capitalism, and small government are the answer? I'm all for reforms in a big way given charter/private schools leave a lot of kids behind. Many parents simply don't have that choice you tout so prominently. Never have, probably never will. I don't blame unions per say for the equity disparagement of poor schools, since the whole blamed society suffers from it.

It is the teacher's unions that most resist change .

No, they just want to be vaccinated in a timely manner for starters. Do the math.

Chicago union signals it won’t accept Chicago Public Schools' ‘final offer’ on reopening (yahoo.com) (https://news.yahoo.com/chicago-union-signals-won-t-000000421.html)

I can see both sides of this issue Tom.

Parents are supporting these schools with their tax dollars .
...as they are public libraries, community colleges, and state universities. Covid has partially or completely closed many of them with only remote teaching and guarded access.

I would say the same for public colleges that I say about public K-12 . If I was paying tuition for in class education and was only getting a remote education ,I would demand a refund.

That being said ;the K-12 education is far more important than the college education . Adults can get college education any time . K-12 is foundational . You can't get that back . What those children are losing they will not easily get back .

Amazing to me the perception that store shelf stockers are essential but teachers apparently are not . I'm calling on Quid to call out the irresponsible teacher's unions and order them to go back to class. His CDC director Dr. Rochelle Walensky has stated that vaccination should not be a prerequisite to returning to work ;and I agree with the science . Miguel Cardona, Quid's Education Sec promises that schools will be reopened in Quid's first 100 days .

But Quid has also promised a $130 billion ransom payment to the unions . So I have to question where his loyalties lies .....with the parents and children of America ,or his financial donors in the unions . Never mind .I know where his loyalties lie . He has muzzled Walensky and distanced himself from her comments . His press air head Jen Psaki said ;"Dr. Walensky spoke to this in her personal capacity." ie not official policy.

On this I am on the side of many Democrat mayors including Lightfoot and even Sandinista Bill . The Dems who are siding with the unions are siding with rich and powerful Democrat party donors over the interests of the children . The Dems love saying they are doing things "for the children" . Well now is their chance to prove it . Open up the schools !!!

If teacher unions refuse then parents across the country should join in class action suits to take these unions down .

I would say the same for public colleges that I say about public K-12 .

1. More privatization with the use of vouchers.
2. Return to a married father/mother family structure.

Problem would be largely solved.

Distance learning is full of promise, but as you note, it certainly should be less expensive. It's an area of great potential for the private sector to jump in with innovation and effective services.


But Quid has also promised a $130 billion ransom payment to the unionsIt's amazing how generous pols become when we stupidly give them permission to borrow money at will.

Study after study shows remote learning a failure .

All-remote learning is failing many students all across the country: "These children are struggling" - CBS News (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-pandemic-students-grades-suffering-all-remote-learning/)

Remote learning a failure on all fronts | Opinion | daily-journal.com (daily-journal.com) (https://www.daily-journal.com/opinion/remote-learning-a-failure-on-all-fronts/article_4d957770-35c2-11eb-b85f-8bc2b3f4a1aa.html)

Tom, those links are about distance learning with kids in public schools. I would think that is a poor idea for sure. I was referring to online classes for college students or perhaps a limited group of well-motivated high school students.

Yes they were not a response to your college comments .They were in response to WG's #7 about remote learning .

I agree that on line learning is very viable at the college level . I know someone who completed their masters degree on line . If I were going to college I would probably opt for that myself. A lot of money is wasted in tuition costs on the college environment like sculptured land scaping ,student centers ,and climbing walls on gymnasiums .

To tal #6 I say who is more critical for getting vaccinated .....young and healthy teachers with no preconditions ..... or the elderly who's life is threatened when they get covid ? The Chi-town teachers want to cut in line . If the teachers use the same recommended procedures as the general population then they are no more at risk by being in schools as opposed to every other American who has been deemed essential . Or are their services not essential ?

K-12 is foundational . You can't get that back . What those children are losing they will not easily get back .
I disagree. No longer is handwriting, geography, parts of speech (diagramming sentences!), and world/American history adequately taught. Nor are art and music appreciation (seeing/discussing famous art works or listening to/discussing famous musical compositions and being tested on them). Bring back the curriculum from the 1950s!

can't disagree with that . But both comments aren't mutually exclusive .

No longer is handwriting, geography, parts of speech (diagramming sentences!), and world/American history adequately taught. Nor are art and music appreciation (seeing/discussing famous art works or listening to/discussing famous musical compositions and being tested on them).It's all being taught in our state. I can't imagine a state where geography and parts of speech are not taught repeatedly. I see posts all the time lamenting what is supposedly not being taught in schools only to find that those subjects actually ARE being taught.


K-12 is foundational . You can't get that back . What those children are losing they will not easily get back .That is absolutely, positively true, especially in K-8. Kids begin to "branch out" more in high school, but until then the emphasis is on foundational skills, and those are extensive.

It's all being taught in our state. I can't imagine a state where geography and parts of speech are not taught repeatedly. I see posts all the time lamenting what is supposedly not being taught in schools only to find that those subjects actually ARE being taught.
Where is the Tiber River? the Rhine River? the Pyrenees? the city of Riga? What is the difference between has gone and had gone, and what are the names of their forms? Why can't anyone differentiate between it's and its, or between your and you're?

Why can't anyone differentiate between it's and its, or between your and you're?The great majority of our fifth graders could differentiate in both instances. Pretty basic.

As to your geography examples, I imagine the great majority of adults get through life quite well either knowing their locations, or simply looking it up if needed.

The purpose of education is to alert children to the existence of facts and impart basic reading and writing skills any thing else is cultural my facts are not the same as your facts eg; the US system of government is irrelevant to my daily life but your children spend excessive time studying it

Math is cultural???


your children spend excessive time studying itCouldn't be any more wrong. Most young people in America seem to have no understanding of our government or of the heritage behind it.

Multi cultural in fact, basic fact 1, 2, many, much

The great majority of our fifth graders could differentiate in both instances. Pretty basic.
Without looking it up (and I'm trusting you here), what's the difference between has gone and had gone?

Why are its/it's and your/you're and there/their/they're almost always mixed up and misused in emails, on websites, and even in edited publications?

Without looking it up (and I'm trusting you here), what's the difference between has gone and had gone?The two I VERY specifically referred to were your/you're and its/it's. You MUST learn to read more carefully.

Has gone and had gone are more advanced. I somehow managed to make it 67 years with a master's degree in Educational Leadership without knowing or caring what the difference is. My guess would be that "has gone" refers to a current state of a person who left sometime in the past. "Had gone" would, I guess, refer to the fact that a person left at a point in time in the past with no reference to the current time.

"By the time we got there, it seemed he had gone. To be sure, we asked his wife. She replied, 'He has gone and I don't know when he will return.'"


Why are its/it's and your/you're and there/their/they're almost always mixed up and misused in emails, on websites, and even in edited publications?Why is it that you sometimes make grammatical errors in your posts? It's because people are imperfect. You're capable of making making mistakes like everyone else. That's why we should regularly refer to The Elements of Style by Strunk and White. Its contents are very useful.


Multi cultural in fact, basic fact 1, 2, many, muchNah. Math is universal. 3 x 2 = 6 everywhere in the world. Well perhaps with the exception of the democrat party, but otherwise it is universal.

To jlisenbe
You just can't be civil, can you. I'm done with you.

Jl, pc doesnt cut it we all have different perceptions, so what is important to you I might be indifferent to , again culture here we have the culture of the fair go so are more inclined to be reasonable, unlike your martyr Trump but that doesnt stop us from seeing the unfairness embodied in some reports so i give you the basic philosophy for your consideration, no worries mate

Jl, pc doesnt cut it we all have different perceptions, so what is important to you I might be indifferent to , again culture here we have the culture of the fair go so are more inclined to be reasonable, unlike your martyr Trump but that doesnt stop us from seeing the unfairness embodied in some reports so i give you the basic philosophy for your consideration, no worries mate. I think I can agree with that. My question just involved you leaving out math, but I figured it was just an oversight anyway. Not a big deal.


You just can't be civil, can youI'm sorry you feel that way, but coming from someone who once that it was just hilarious to post a picture of cow manure (or whatever the source animal was) in what I guess you thought was a hilarious support of a suggestion concerning a person having their head up Trump's rear end, it just doesn't carry much weight. I consider that you set a very low standard on that day which makes you an unreliable judge of such matters.


I'm done with you.Unfortunate, but your choice. Probably for the best, and I do wish you well.

Yes they were not a response to your college comments .They were in response to WG's #7 about remote learning .

I agree that on line learning is very viable at the college level . I know someone who completed their masters degree on line . If I were going to college I would probably opt for that myself. A lot of money is wasted in tuition costs on the college environment like sculptured land scaping ,student centers ,and climbing walls on gymnasiums .

I don't think the importance of environment and balanced activities should be discounted or dismissed as part of a student experience on any educational level. The social interactions are as crucial to development as the scholastic. We can debate the budgetary considerations but the unique individual needs should be assessed and addressed. At least I think an awareness and balanced approach helps all students and not just exceptional ones.


To tal #6 I say who is more critical for getting vaccinated .....young and healthy teachers with no preconditions ..... or the elderly who's life is threatened when they get covid ? The Chi-town teachers want to cut in line . If the teachers use the same recommended procedures as the general population then they are no more at risk by being in schools as opposed to every other American who has been deemed essential . Or are their services not essential ?

Even hard and fast rules need adjustments as more data is being presented and no doubt we already have seen the inequity and higher numbers in minority communities than less diverse ones that have been disturbing for a long time even pre covid. I don't think that taking a hard line does anyone any good especially not the students everybody claims to be so concerned about when many of the very categories of priority may well indeed overlap justifying some teachers being up graded in those vaccination lines.

Fact is those teachers in higher risk schools of Chicago with other high risk factors and conditions cannot just be lumped into a general broader conversation because their needs are different and in many cases more critical.

Fact is those teachers in higher risk schools of Chicago with other high risk factors and conditions cannot just be lumped into a general broader conversation because their needs are different and in many cases more critical.

If the individual teachers fall in the risk groups then of course they deserve the same priority as any other person in high risk groups being prioritized now . But most of them aren't .More than 2/3 in fact are not .

It would seem to me though after all this time what's the all fired hurry with these artificial deadlines? The Chicago School system is HUGE. Get it done sure enough but get it right. All the other stuff is politically motivated hype and handwringing...on both sides.

The teacher's unions are recalcitrant .Other essential workers, both unionized and non-unionized, accepted the risks of working outside their homes a long time ago . It's been 11 months. Lots of people , including teachers at some public and most private schools ,have gone back to work. They have run out of excuses .

If the individual teachers fall in the risk groups then of course they deserve the same priority as any other person in high risk groups being prioritized now . But most of them aren't .More than 2/3 in fact are not .Walmart workers are at work. Many restaurants still remain open. Liquor store workers even go to work. So I don't see why a 34 year old teacher can't go. But the simple answer is to tell them, "No work, no pay," or at least let distance learning be paid at a lower rate. I imagine they'd see the light fairly quickly then. The sad reality is that the group for which schools exist is the group that is getting hurt the most, and that is the students.

I was always deliriously happy that I never had to deal with a teachers' union, either as a parent, a teacher or a principal.

The teacher's unions are recalcitrant .Other essential workers, both unionized and non-unionized, accepted the risks of working outside their homes a long time ago . It's been 11 months. Lots of people , including teachers at some public and most private schools ,have gone back to work. They have run out of excuses .

You obviously have read little about the issues Chicago is attempting to bridge so maybe I overlook your lack of facts and biases concerning this rather large cash strapped metropolis concerning it's schools because fact is as much as Chi town has done there is more to do for the safety of those teachers that aren't 34 years old and healthy with no issues.

The essentials label is an arbitrary one at best and amazing that the right is now so concerned with inner city kids when they sure weren't before.

You obviously have read little about the issues Chicago is attempting to bridge so maybe I overlook your lack of facts and biases concerning this rather large cash strapped metropolis concerning it's schools because fact is as much as Chi town has done there is more to do for the safety of those teachers that aren't 34 years old and healthy with no issues.

I am tired of this claim that I speak with no facts to back me up . Maybe Mayor Lightfoot lacks those facts too ?

Tom's posts are more fact-based than anyone on here. I think it's funny that Chicago is a "cash strapped metropolis", but there is "more to do" in the way of spending money for safety. That's just typical lib thinking. "Budget not balanced? Great! Let's spend more money."

Only 6,000 jobs added in January. Thank you, Joe Biden. The dems are clueless as to how to encourage a healthy economy, but at least they're good at destroying high paying pipeline jobs and impeaching a president who is not even in office. Reassuring.

I am tired of this claim that I speak with no facts to back me up . Maybe Mayor Lightfoot lacks those facts too ?

Chicago Public Schools, Teachers Union Reach Tentative Agreement to Reopen, Mayor Says (yahoo.com) (https://news.yahoo.com/chicago-public-schools-teachers-union-141029516.html)

The process continues as well it should.

Only 6,000 jobs added in January. Thank you, Joe Biden. The dems are clueless as to how to encourage a healthy economy, but at least they're good at destroying high paying pipeline jobs and impeaching a president who is not even in office. Reassuring.

now you know they have to be beholding to their funders, Canadian oil will continue on the less save route making Buffett money and there will be more jobs lost in the energy sector, autos will have stringent standards applied and Tesla will boom along with bitcoin. No need for real jobs just sit on your duff and mine bitcoin

Now our idiot pres has decided that schools reopening means smaller numbers in the classrooms (where do the others go?) and reworked ventilation systems. In the meantime, in the world of reality, a study comes out of North Carolina where 90,000 students/teachers were followed. They found the grand total of 32 Covid cases. So much for the grand claims of liberal dems in "following the science".

"...they found about 30 times fewer school-related cases than anticipated."

https://www.cbs17.com/news/north-carolina-news/study-extremely-limited-covid-19-spread-in-nc-schools-following-the-3-ws/

be thankful for small mercies

Chicago Public Schools, Teachers Union Reach Tentative Agreement to Reopen, Mayor Says (yahoo.com) (https://news.yahoo.com/chicago-public-schools-teachers-union-141029516.html)

The process continues as well it should.
Why is there even negotiations ? Get your a$$ back to work or get fired . The mayor had done all they asked . The fact that they keep moving the goal post means that they are not serious about negotiations .
Well now the pressure is on them because even Quid is balking ....and no one sucks up to unions more than he .

Negotiations are how compromise is reached. This is still America not Russia.

such a shame about that, you elect a tyrant and oppose everything he does

Guilty, but the tyrant is gone, at least from office. The cult followers remain.

Tal disparages 72 million American voters as a cult . You see ;this is the real issue . To the left it is not a matter of a difference of opinion. It is not enough to defeat the opposition . They have to be cancelled like what Stalin and Mao did . There is talk among the left that say Trump supporters need 'deprogramming ' AOC in committee hearings suggested that the Federal Government should fund such an effort . I have also heard that from other so called responsible Dem leaders and their compliant press.

I don't put all the ones who voted for the dufus in the same category. Just the loony ones. Are you putting the 80 million who voted for Biden into one category?

see all the examples of the cancel culture i have posted on the Parler OP . I will post more in the coming days as I see them in the news almost daily . AOC's committee recommendations being the latest . She is not fringe in the party. She is partnering with Schmucky more often. Why ? Because the Schmuckster thinks she will primary him if he doesn't cow tow to her agenda.

You mean like Mitch and repubs kowtow to the dufus STILL? Yeah those primaries are scary. Joes starting to catch it about following science and opening schools. Seems a simple concession to ramp up teacher vaccinations as supplies become more abundant.

Right on cue is this story. "Gina Carano faces backlash for social media posts, 'not currently employed' by 'Star Wars'"
https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/gina-carano-backlash-social-media-posts-not-currently-employed-star-wars

AOC wants us deprogrammed
AOC proposes funding to deprogram white supremacists (nypost.com) (https://nypost.com/2021/01/15/aoc-proposes-funding-to-deprogram-white-supremacists/)

Axios wants us deprogrammed
How to deprogram America's extremists - Axios (https://www.axios.com/fighting-online-radicals-extremism-90b8dcb6-31a7-4321-a53a-c8be5643f7d6.html)

The Compost talks of deprogramming Trump supporters
Opinion | Why is it so hard to deprogram Trumpian conspiracy theorists? - The Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/01/25/why-is-it-so-hard-deprogram-trumpian-conspiracy-theorists/)

so does Vanity Fair
“So Many Great, Educated, Functional People Were Brainwashed”: Can Trump’s Cult of Followers Be Deprogrammed? | Vanity Fair (https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/01/can-trumps-cult-of-followers-be-deprogrammed)

CNN floated the idea too
Cult expert explains how to deprogram Trump's most fanatical supporters - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnblPVMEYAc&feature=emb_logo)

So does Katie Couric .She wants Trump supporting lawmakers deprogrammed
Katie Couric's GOP comments meet controversy (pagesix.com) (https://pagesix.com/2021/01/22/katie-courics-gop-comments-meet-controversy/)

The Compost columnist Eugene Robinson reckons the number of Americans who need to be deprogrammed is in the “millions.” .
. .


An attorney for PBS was caught on camera saying the children of Trump supporters should be taken away from their parents and put in reeducation camps.
PBS attorney fired after video shows him pushing for 're-education camps' for Trump voters | WCTI (wcti12.com) (https://wcti12.com/news/nation-world/pbs-attorney-fired-after-video-shows-him-pushing-for-re-education-camps-for-trump-voters)

All of which should both scare and arouse everyone. It is surely one of those issues that we can unite around. There's not much worse than the government thinking it can tell us what to believe.

Chicago schools reopen doors after tough union fight (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/chicago-schools-reopen-doors-after-tough-union-fight/ar-BB1dBEjA)

let's move to Pittsburgh where every school in surrounding districts are open except Pittsburgh . There the teacher's unions are demanding that all teachers are vaccinated before returning to class. In a letter to school board president Sylvia Wilson, the union executive committee said: “Overall, we find that our membership is anxious to get back to their students, but they want to do it safely, once they have been vaccinated with both doses of either the Moderna or Pfizer vaccine.” Pittsburgh Public Schools is considering moving back the start day again .... this time until April 6. But you know that there is no way all the teacher's in the district will get both doses of vaccine unless they cut in line of others who's life could depend on it .

Salena Zito reports about Lena Carson who was pulling straight A’s at the city’s Creative and Performing Arts Magnet school before the pandemic. But now her straight A’s have dipped to D’s, and Lena says she struggles to complete assignments, not because she can’t but because of the lost will. “I have nothing to look forward to,” she said.

The hardest part for her is all of the false starts. “Four times over the past year, we’ve been told we were going back, given a date, and then a few days before, and sometimes a day before, we are supposed to get to the classroom, they abruptly change the rules,” she said.

SALENA ZITO: The kids are not all right | Salena Zito | martinsvillebulletin.com (https://martinsvillebulletin.com/opinion/columnists/zito_salena/salena-zito-the-kids-are-not-all-right/article_cced7c30-6a78-11eb-a4b1-77dc103b9567.html)

The Dems say to follow the science . The science says that it is safer to be in school then many activities teachers routinely participate in . Schools have not been the super spreader locations that they were predicted to be .The teachers that have preexisting conditions can get their vaccination now . The rest of them should shut up and get in line like the rest of us ;and go to work .Most of the rest of the country does not get paid to park themselves on a comfortable chair at home pretending to work . It is a disservice to the students and to the parents who's taxes pay their salaries



Hannah Bedeck, a sophomore at CAPA 6-12, said as the district approaches the one-year mark of online learning, it has become increasingly difficult for students to maintain a positive mindset and healthy work ethic.
She expressed concern that her virtual education has not met the standard that it would have had she been in school.
“Though we are still attending class in some aspect, the curricula are nowhere near as rigorous as they would have been in person,” she said. “Without midterms and other benchmarks, we are not held to the same academic standards as we would have been otherwise.”


Rift appears between parents, staff before Pittsburgh Public Schools reopening vote | Pittsburgh Post-Gazette (post-gazette.com) (https://www.post-gazette.com/news/education/2021/01/25/Pittsburgh-Public-Schools-reopening-PPS-school-board-members-vote-parents/stories/202101250145)

Sad that we sit back and watch these lazy buzzards act in a way that makes one thing very clear. They believe school systems exist primarily to benefit the teachers, and in particular the liberal dem teachers who belong to a union. So the students are the ones suffering, along with their parents, while the teachers are having what amounts to an extended vacation. Just more evidence of a lazy, distracted electorate.

Geez Tom if this pandemic and the response to it has traumatized adults and parents then it's no wonder the kids are suffering too. Doesn't matter where you go, it's the same everywhere. Heck half the population was traumatized by the dufus before the frigging pandemic.

4 years of hollering screaming chaos will do that. Not going quietly and gracefully into the sunset doesn't help anyone either.

Trump's legal team has effectively destroyed the liberal dems kangaroo court impeachment case, and the vote Monday will be far short of the votes needed, so what happens next? Will there be a move to borrow more money to send checks to people who don't need it?

In a dramatic twist, Senate votes to consider witnesses in Trump’s impeachment trial (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/in-a-dramatic-twist-senate-votes-to-consider-witnesses-in-trump-s-impeachment-trial/ar-BB1dEwwb?ocid=msedgntp)

didn't happen . Even the Dems realized they have more important things to do.

so you can't answer why every other district surrounding Pittsburgh is open for business ;but not Pittsburgh .

They put Beutler's story on the record and moved to close and vote, but all the big city schools will be opening like the smaller burbs soon. What? You going to beetch about dem cities one by one? In another few weeks you'll run out of that talking point.

in the aggregate this proves that the Dems don't care as much about doing things "for the Children " as they proclaim . Even Quid in the end is going to have to put the unions in their place.

We know you repubs never cared about the kids either and that was before covid so keep it real. With all this school choice crap, I haven't heard a peep about the majority with NO choice.

I'm all ears!

umm it is the Dems and their allies in the teacher's unions that prevent school choice .

The real reason teachers' unions oppose charter schools - The Center for Education Reform (edreform.com) (https://edreform.com/2006/04/the-real-reason-teachers-unions-oppose-charter-schools/)

News - Unions Deploy Teacher Strikes to Stop School Choice | Heartland Institute (https://www.heartland.org/news-opinion/news/unions-deploy-teacher-strikes-to-stop-school-choice)

Congress Blocks School Choice in New Stimulus Package – Reason.com (https://reason.com/2020/12/22/congress-blocks-school-choice-in-new-stimulus-package/)

Thwarted by Congress, DeVos Seeks School Choice With Grants - Roll Call (https://www.rollcall.com/2017/10/13/thwarted-by-congress-devos-seeks-school-choice-with-grants/)

I don't know if you have answered my question about what of the kids who are left behind. I can respect your dislike of unions but my focus is the actual kids and that involves school boards and governance more than the teachers and unions. I don't know if the charter schools deliver on any greater education levels as public schools but do cherry pick the cream of the crop. I suppose there are charter schools for poor kids but if not then school choice sounds like rebranding separate but equal, with kids being a commodity rather than a resource. Not saying I'm against private, parochial, or even charter schools great if you can afford it, but what of those that cannot?

Funny thing about unions - the mere threat makes corporations improve working conditions for its employees. Win-win.

Tal are kids being left behind in the public school system ? Are you conceding that system is a failure ? if so then why are you so opposed to trying something that has a demonstrated record of success? We have gone over funding options a thousand times with vouchers and grants . The opposition only protects the status quo .


Funny thing about unions - the mere threat makes corporations improve working conditions for its employees. Win-win. irrelevant to the discussion .We are talking about public unions that get their benefits out of the taxpayer's pockets . Even Roosevelt opposed public unions .

Tal are kids being left behind in the public school system ? Are you conceding that system is a failure ? if so then why are you so opposed to trying something that has a demonstrated record of success? We have gone over funding options a thousand times with vouchers and grants . The opposition only protects the status quo .

irrelevant to the discussion .We are talking about public unions that get their benefits out of the taxpayer's pockets . Even Roosevelt opposed public unions .

Never fought a teachers union for leaving kids behind. It's always a school board or district that's the real culprit. You know the bean counters that make policy. That makes your union argument a distracting straw argument to hide the real issues. I could care less about how Roosevelt felt about public unions.

Next you'll tell me that school choice doesn't take money out the tax payers pockets. Your links say otherwise.

Not saying I'm against private, parochial, or even charter schools great if you can afford it, but what of those that cannot?
I know from attending a parochial school myself, teaching in one, and sending my kids to one that the congregation will give financial aid to any family that is willing to participate in the life of the church and support the school in various non-financial ways.

Charter schools are typically funded by the state. A voucher system would not be any more expensive, but would allow lower income kids the opportunity to attend good schools that they do not presently have. It would start a revolution in education and give parents the chance to be in charge of their children's education.

Getting rid of a lot of federal and state nonsensical regs would help a great deal as well.

Wonder where poor states like yours finds the money to give all the poor kids vouchers when guys like you are already beetching about people taking your money. You got enough charter school desks for those kids?

What regs are so ridiculous they should go? Easy enough to make a blanket statement but backing it up with actual numbers requires more.

You don't understand how they operate . How do public schools gets desks ? .....through taxes ....just like charters . Charter schools are all part of the public system . The only difference is that they are non-profit privately operated .They do not charge tuition .
They have the ability to build the classroom they way they want to designed for the needs of their pupils and unencumbered by silly rules that teacher's unions demand of the public school system.

Exactly correct. They still are encumbered with many silly regs that public schools are subject to, but do have a great deal more autonomy. More than anything, they have the enormous benefit of a student body whose parents have made the decision of sending their kids to that school and are thus pretty well vested.

Nice try wingers, but I asked for specifics not general platitudes and since neither of you understands the funding mechanism differences between private and public, maybe asking for specific regs you object to is a bit beyond your abilities....my bad! I've actually posted links in both regards but reading ain't the strong suit, and comprehension isn't either. Can't fault you for that or ignorance of the law but some meaningful study may help the dialogue and avoid the usual ideological rock throwing.

Humor me!

if you don't understand that Charters are public and not private then you are the one with comprehension issues .

You asked " You got enough charter school desks for those kids?" and my reply was correctly that Charters have exactly the same funding as other public schools . Now since I pay taxes to fund the public system . I would prefer parents have choices as to where they send their kids . Many Black parents feel the same way . For one thing ,it is more likely that their children will have a Black teacher . .
The findings show that traditional public schools and charter schools serve the same proportion of black students, but charter schools have about 35 percent more black teachers. Black students in charter schools are more than 50 percent more likely to have at least one black teacher than their counterparts in traditional public schools,
Black Students in Charter Schools Are More Likely to Have Black Teachers (edweek.org) (https://www.edweek.org/leadership/black-students-in-charter-schools-are-more-likely-to-have-black-teachers/2019/06?s_kwcid=AL!6416!3!486544088589!b!!g!!&utm_source=goog&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=ew+dynamic+recent%20&ccid=dynamic+ads+recent+articles&ccag=recent+articles+dynamic&cckw=&cccv=dynamic+ad&gclid=Cj0KCQiA1KiBBhCcARIsAPWqoSpBshTBtgsi0b_fgk6f udBhHD5UQcdx06vurd41Ga7WaX2sC6a94b4aAradEALw_wcB)

The idea that black kids need black teachers is nothing more than an old wives tale. It has been disproven for years. Black kids are like all kids. What they really need are caring, competent teachers. Color is not significant.

I know what charter schools are, Do-charter-schools-get-better-academic-results-than-public-schoolsƒ.pdf (networkforpubliceducation.org) (https://networkforpubliceducation.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Do-charter-schools-get-better-academic-results-than-public-schools%C6%92.pdf#:~:text=Charter%20schools%20are% 20not%20%E2%80%9Cbetter%E2%80%9D%20than%20public%2 0schools.,evidence%20charters%20produce%20better%2 0long-term%20outcomes%20for%20students.)

Five Differences between Charter and Public Schools – Rhodes School For The Performing Arts (https://rhodesschool.org/differences-between-charter-and-public-schools/#:~:text=Differences%20between%20Charter%20and%20P ublic%20Schools%201%20Admission.,public%20schools% 20are%20run%20by%20the%20state%20)


How Many Students can be Admitted?For public schools, this is also dependent on the situation of the school and its district. Public schools are not allowed to turn students away, even if the school is at full capacity. When the school exceeds the set capacity, students are still allowed a place at the school. Open enrollment schools allow parents to apply to them, even if they aren’t in the same district. Open enrollment schools do not offer children admittance, even if it is a school of their choice, once the school is full. Children who don’t get admitted have to choose a neighboring school. Public schools, once they exceed capacity, employ more teachers to meet the growing demand. This will keep happening as more children apply. Charter schools admit based on a threshold. These schools are designed to be a bit more personal, thus the students admitted are limited. However, if the schools exceed a threshold, a lottery system is implemented.
What do you do with the kids who cannot get into that school of choice which was my original question.

you do what you have always done, send them to the local school

It is a rising tide raises all boats . The competition from charters on traditional public schools increases performance results in the traditional schools . I really don't understand the opposition . Charters were ideas that Bubba and the emperor were all on board with . It really is in concept a progressive one . Actually I do know the issue . The lib think tank AIE states that 87percent or more of the political contributions made by staff at education-reform organizations over the past decade were given to Democratic candidates. “The leading participants inthe school-reform ‘wars’ are mostly engaged in an intramural brawl, one between union allied Democrats and a strand of progressive Democrats more intent on changing school systems.
Education Reform’s Deep Blue Hue - Education Next (https://www.educationnext.org/education-reform-deep-blue-hue-are-school-reformers-right-wingers-centrists-neither/)

The problem becomes that the teacher's unions have increased their strangle hold on the issue stifling the competition that school reform needs to succeed

I don't have much hope for the system because of the power exercised by unions and liberal power groups. That's why I would like to see the whole thing privatized. Give each student a voucher and let them go where the parent/parents choose.

I don't have much hope for the system because of the power exercised by unions and liberal power groups. That's why I would like to see the whole thing privatized. Give each student a voucher and let them go where the parent/parents choose.

I say the same thing about non unions and conservative power groups. If all schools were high quality then no need for private/charter schools or vouchers to better ones.

If all schools were high quality then no need for private/charter schools or vouchers to better ones.
And how can we accomplish that?

Eliminate the poverty that makes the poor schools raggedy.

Eliminate the poverty that makes the poor schools raggedy.
And better teacher training? Safer, better constructed schools?

And better teacher training? Safer, better constructed schools?

Of course.

why is public school your 1st option ? Set education standards at government levels and let schools compete to meet them. No one has convinced me that public school systems should even be the primary choice option . You have to get away from your status quo bias . The public school system is a failure and will be no matter how much money you pour into it . The price per student in public schools is twice what it is in public schools . Do you think you are getting twice the bang for the buck based on student performance ? Fund schools as we do through the property tax system and then give vouchers ,scholarship ,and grants ; and give parents the choice (I thought libs like choice) to decide which school to send their children to. If there were no public schools at all I guarantee that private schools would be easily be founded to fill the difference .

For a vast majority it's the only choice and you've never answered the question of what happens to them. Seems to me that public schools would have been run out of business if indeed they were that much better. We can debate the union/nonunion benefits/issues all you want, and I can see parents having choices, subsidized or not, but whether you have a voucher or not, sitting on a waiting list for a few years doesn't help those parents.

What do you do while waiting your turn on a list? Do they hire more teachers or build more classrooms? What kind of pay and benefits do these non union charter schools offer? Answer some of those questions and save me the marketing spin.

Seems to me that public schools would have been run out of business if indeed they were that much better. hard to run something out of business that is mandated by law.



sitting on a waiting list for a few years doesn't help those parents. that would not be an issue if there were more of them .

All you are using is strawmen issues that would be part of a transition. The bottom line is that public school system is a failure and you are happy with the status quo evidently

Not at all, I just don't trust your end game. There is no such thing as the free market. There is always a cost to pay if you can afford it. Small ineffective government works great for the monied decision makers using my state as a perfect example, but for ordinary throw away folks not so much. For you capitalism is the solution for everything but I disagree with the reforms you're proposing. I don't think you've made the case for transitioning from a public school system to a private one by blasting teachers unions or educational failures.

Even if you're half right you haven't shown the basics of dealing with those who go through the transitions no more than any other repub who wants a new world order. So yeah I guess I'm guilty as charged about that status quo thing because I've seen how the free market transitions people. Too much money from my pocket and too few options to replace it.

who said anything about free market ? I clearly stated

Set education standards at government levels and let schools compete to meet them.


Even if you're half right you haven't shown the basics of dealing with those who go through the transitions no more than any other repub

and yet every Dem program has horrible unintended consequences that Dems shrug their shoulders at ; say well we intended to do good ;and that it would've worked if we had just thrown more $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ at it . With the money spend on education in this country the schools should have gold tiles on the floors . How do you justify a public system that leaves so many students behind or failures ? And don't talk about it being a poverty issue . I know a number of people who have high school diplomas with less than an 8th grade reading level and would be totally lost doing basic math if they did not have calculators or 10 fingers .

If you want to look at the advantages of a free market system, just compare cars or stoves to public education. The former has produced high quality through innovation while the latter is frequently stuck in mediocrity.

How do you justify a public system that leaves so many students behind or failures ? And don't talk about it being a poverty issue . I know a number of people who have high school diplomas with less than an 8th grade reading level and would be totally lost doing basic math if they did not have calculators or 10 fingers .
Teacher training and education is the big problem!

Teacher training is but a small part of it. But even at that, who controls teacher training? It is not the free market.

Teacher training and education is the big problem!

Perhaps and how is that being addressed by the union that doesn't even want their rank and file working?

Sorry they loose all credibility with me when they have set up a system where 700 teachers (1 % of the total work force ) in NYC work out of rubber rooms . They get paid their full salaries to sit around ;free to read the newspaper, surf the internet, knit, chat or just doze off . Their cases never get resolved .

NYC pays 'rubber room' teacher six figures 20 years after sex abuse claims (nypost.com) (https://nypost.com/2019/11/02/nyc-pays-rubber-room-teacher-six-figures-20-years-after-sex-abuse-claims/)

No matter what localities do to make the schools as safe as possible ;the unions push back . More safety precautions are needed for reopening, they say. The West Virginia state teachers’ unions filed a law suit to halt the states move to open the class rooms . In the Bellevue school district near Seattle, the teachers’ union encouraged some of its members to not show up to work in protest of the district’s expansion of in-person learning .The town took the union to court .

Study after study shows that covid transmission rates in schools are relatively low when mitigation strategies are in place . In California and Fairfax VA ; even getting vaccinated in not enough sayeth the unions .

Perhaps and how is that being addressed by the union that doesn't even want their rank and file working?
If you were an elementary schoolteacher (let's say 4th grade), how would your schoolday be run during these perilous times of remote learning?

I'd be attached to a computer interacting with my students over the web

In California and Fairfax VA ; even getting vaccinated in not enough sayeth the unions .

Of course it isn't enough. Also needed/required are masks, hand-washing, social distancing, and proper ventilation. A major problem is people like yourself believe vaccination is all that is needed. As every medical pro has stated ad infinitum, vaccination is NOT enough.


From Paraclete
I'd be attached to a computer interacting with my students over the web

Not every student has a computer to interact with.

well our experience says wearing masks, social distancing and selected shutdowns work as does isolation of travellers

I'd be attached to a computer interacting with my students over the web
How would you test them?

Online test, ask questions, this was done here for three months last year

Online test, ask questions, this was done here for three months last year
Plagiarism? Googling for answers? Doing non-scholastic things?

well our experience says wearing masks, social distancing and selected shutdowns workStudy after study has shown that transmission of Covid in schools is rare when compared to the general population.

"With masking requirements and student cohorting, transmission risk within schools appeared low, suggesting that schools might be able to safely open with appropriate mitigation efforts in place."


https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/risk-comms-updates/update39-covid-and-schools.pdf?sfvrsn=320db233_2


Plagiarism? Googling for answers? Doing non-scholastic things?This is a good point. Online learning for students in K-6 is a terrible idea.

...schools might be able to safely open with appropriate mitigation efforts in place."



from Paraclete
Our experience says wearing masks, social distancing and selected shutdowns work

Appropriate mitigation effects, including hygiene and ventilation.

There is a way to open schools safely, but not addressing the concerns of those involved locally is a mistake that can be corrected. Forcing essential workers, no matter the profession to work without such a verification process ain't the way to go. Even if a school is safe, teachers like everybody else can still be at risk of exposure to covid from other sources. A sick teacher does no one any good. A sick worker does no one any good and adds to the risk and increases the problem.

No need to be hysterical as we figure this stuff out.

take your time and get it right, the kids can do with a holiday anyway

the kids can do with a holiday anywayThe kids are suffering because of this teacher union and liberal dem mandated "holiday". No educator would ever say that kids "can do" with sitting at home for months getting a half-way education. It has already been demonstrated in several studies that having schools open is a low risk enterprise. Both private and public schools by the thousands are open all across the country and doing very well.

Forcing essential workers, no matter the profession to work without such a verification process ain't the way to go. Even if a school is safe, teachers like everybody else can still be at risk of exposure to covid from other sources. A sick teacher does no one any good. A sick worker does no one any good and adds to the risk and increases the problem.

Mitigations that are at least as good as for a grocery store worker are already implemented . You just think that a teacher is a special essential worker who's risks and needs are above Doctors ,nurses ,police ,firefighters ,grocery store workers ,Walmart workers ,dock workers ,production workers all over the country. Why shouldn't teachers be under the same risks ? Is educating the children not important ? On line learning is an inadequate substitute for class room learning for k-12

On line learning is an inadequate substitute for class room learning for k-12That is especially true for the lower grades. And even worse, it's not that the kids are standing still relative to learning. They can easily go backwards. This nonchalant attitude about kids taking a "holiday" is really disappointing.

One size fits all doesn't work that well with school openings as some neighborhoods still have high rates of transmissions and hospitalizations and low rates of vaccinations and many teachers are still in a high risk category.

Too many localities across the country are in this boat, so generalities don't always apply.

Quid says follow the science . What he means is follow the science unless it goes against a major donor like the teacher's union. Kids are dying from this decision . Not from Covid . They are dying from suicide directly related to keeping them home isolated with little socialization with their peers

Quid campaigned on having most schools open in the first 100 days . Now Jen Psaki explains that when he said that ;he meant 50% ......and by open he meant once a week .....a “bold ambitious agenda.”
Is one day a week enough? Biden's school goal draws blowback (apnews.com) (https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-us-news-coronavirus-pandemic-jen-psaki-6de489a8be366b836067a6acd8528912)

We were already at 50 % one day a week before inauguration day .64 percent of schools already offered some in person instruction.. So what Psaki says is the goal is actually a set back

The goal should be 100 % immediately 5 days a week !
The“science” is clear and has been since last summer: Schools are safe. Kids are not significant spreaders . In fact, they’re safer in school than out.
The American Academy of Pediatrics, National Academies of Science, Engineering and Medicine and Quid's CDC director, Rochelle Walensky, have said schools can open safely.

The goal should be 100 % immediately 5 days a week !Exactly correct. In our state that is largely being done now. Some problems, but there are always problems. These kids do not need to be staying at home. What is really needed is for Trump to call for schools to be strictly online. If he would do that, then the "We hate Trump" crowd would immediately send the kids to school.

While the covid numbers are coming down after the holiday wave much of the country remains in a red zone for cases, and spread. That doesn't indicate a rush to reopen all the states economies and schools. Even the scientists agree that the locals should be cautious in areas with still high rates.