Antarctica once had a tropical rain forest .

Fossilised Remains of 90-million-year-old Rainforest Found Under Antarctic Ice (thevintagenews.com) (https://www.thevintagenews.com/2020/12/09/antarctic/?fbclid=IwAR251EuXHcU8adUyMzmXjdFWppQgSKyalqosxVWd lfTS-YhKVzJERkkyJ6s)

This is also true of the North Pole

Study: North Pole Once Was Tropical - CBS News (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/study-north-pole-once-was-tropical/)

I guess they got those dinosaurs to stop driving SUVs .

NOW is global warming/climate change, partly because of the human activities on this planet.

possibly; that is one unproven hypothesis . I have my own unproven hypothesis .It says that the real state of the world is warm ;that we are still retreating from the last ice age that began about 20,000 years ago . The current warming began around 11,000 years ago . There have been at least 5 major ice ages in the globe's history ;and countless lesser ones.

and the world recovered from these ice ages without human intervention

Will the worlds humans recover from fouling the land air and water too? Humans could at least clean up after themselves.

there you go again . The issues are not related . The issue related to alleged anthropogenic climate change have nothing to do with other pollutants . Carbon dioxide is not a pollutant despite what SCOTUS says . And there is certainly no evidence that other pollutants "fouling the air and water " have any relationship to climate change .
We can certainly address those issues and in many cases have done so .

For what it's worth, most western nations have been reducing CO2 output since 2000. This chart is a great illustration of why the Paris Accords were one of Obama's most ridiculous "accomplishments". https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Total_CO2_by_Region.svg/800px-Total_CO2_by_Region.svg.png

The issue related to alleged anthropogenic climate change have nothing to do with other pollutants . Carbon dioxide is not a pollutant despite what SCOTUS says

Here's some reading for you scientists out there.

We know that the increase in atmospheric CO2 is anthropogenic from a number of lines of evidence. Atmospheric oxygen is decreasing (https://skepticalscience.com/co2-coming-from-ocean.htm) at approximately the same rate as the atmospheric CO2 increase, which tells us that the source of the change is from a release of carbon combining with atmospheric oxygen rather than a natural release of CO2.

Thus we know that human emissions are increasing the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, which as a greenhouse gas, in turn increases the greenhouse effect. This increases the amount of energy (in the form of longwave infrared radiation) reaching the Earth's surface. We've observed this increase through spectroscopy (https://skepticalscience.com/empirical-evidence-for-co2-enhanced-greenhouse-effect-advanced.htm), which measures changes in the electromagnetic spectrum. Climate scientists have also quantified the amount of warming (https://skepticalscience.com/empirical-evidence-for-co2-enhanced-greenhouse-effect-advanced.htm) we expect to see from the energy imbalance caused by this increased downward radiation, and it matches well with observations. Given the amount of CO2 humans have added to the atmosphere already, once the planet reaches a new equilibrium state, it will have warmed approximately 1.4°C from pre-industrial levels. Additionally, we have observed numerous key 'fingerprints' (https://skepticalscience.com/its-not-us-advanced.htm) of anthropogenic global warming which confirm that the warming we've experienced is due to an increased greenhouse effect.

There are some positive effects of global warming from increased CO2 emissions. For example, improved agriculture at high latitudes and increased vegetation growth in some circumstances. However, the negatives will far outweigh the positives (https://skepticalscience.com/global-warming-positives-negatives.htm). Coast-bound communities are threatened by rising sea levels (https://skepticalscience.com/sea-level-rise-predictions.htm). Melting glaciers threaten the water supplies of hundreds of millions (https://skepticalscience.com/IPCC-Himalayan-glacier-2035-prediction.htm). Species are already becoming extinct at a rate 100 to 1000 times higher than the “background” rate of long spans of geological time (https://skepticalscience.com/Can-animals-and-plants-adapt-to-global-warming.htm), partially due to the effects of global warming and climate change.

Another impact of increasing atmospheric CO2 emissions is ocean acidification. Among other impacts, this decreasing oceanic pH has a damaging effect on corals, which form the habitat of approximately 25% of marine species (Karleskint et al. 2009 (http://books.google.com/books?id=0JkKOFIj5pgC&pg=PA414&lpg=PA414&dq=corals+habitat+25%25+marine+species&source=bl&ots=Rkt3WmqMtK&sig=-y8ZysPhzMilY9We1Me-zu-nVDg&hl=en&ei=pWanTPqeJISosQOb1oWSDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDIQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=corals%20habitat%2025%25%20marine%20species&f=false)). A seminal study co-authored by 17 marine scientists (Hoegh-Guldberg et al. 2007 (http://media.eurekalert.org/aaasnewsroom/2008/FIL_000000000120/HoeghGuldberg%20et%20al.%202007%20complete.pdf)) found:
"Many experimental studies have shown that a doubling of pre-industrial [CO2] atm to 560 ppm decreases coral calcification and growth by up to 40% through the inhibition of aragonite formation (the principal crystalline form of calcium carbonate deposited in coral skeletons) as carbonate-ion concentrations decrease"
Thus not only does anthropogenic CO2 act as a dangerous pollutant due to its impacts on global warming and climate change, but it also has a major effect on marine ecosystems through ocean acidification.

When considering the legal definition of "air pollutants" and body of scientific evidence, it becomes clear that CO2 meets the definition and poses a significant threat to public health and welfare.

Here's the data for the scientifically inclined:

https://skepticalscience.com/print.php?r=281

I don't know of anyone who questions that atmospheric CO2 has increased, though it is still measured in parts per million and has never been a significant atmospheric component. I also don't know of anyone who seriously questions that global temps have risen marginally, though not nearly as much as the now discredited computer models predicted. The big question centers around what to do about it. The liberal dem idea of a Green New Deal is lunacy right out of the gate if, for no other reason, its prohibitive cost and the fact that it only effects CO2 emissions in the U.S., so we are still waiting on someone to come up with a logical solution. We like to throw accusations around in our country, but we still await any practical ideas of what to do about it. Wind and solar can help a little, but they are not large-scale solutions due to being unreliable. Replacing coal with natural gas helps. Energy efficient cars, buildings, etc. help some as well, but that does nothing to slow down the rest of the world. So a truly global solution is, at present, nowhere to be found, and it might well turn out that simply learning to adapt is going to be the answer. A real key is to not allow liberal dems like AOC, Sanders, Harris Biden, and others to destroy our economy in their foolish and unscientific efforts to use Monopoly money to fix a problem that is still not well understood.

Naturally occurring CO2 is a part of the cycle of life in the global ecosystem, but mans emissions does change that natural equation and has profound effects on that cycle of life which appears to accelerate not just the rate of climate change, but the intensity of it. To say that a few million cars or oil refineries, or coal burning power plants have no effect on air land or water is insane, or that our mitigation strategies are as adequate as they need to be is down right crazy. I'm not surprised though that you and many others just see this as a matter of money, as mitigation is expensive and old habits die hard, and why would you care if until YOUR water supply or air you breath may not be as polluted as another locale or region.

Basically what Athos so very well posted and there is plenty of evidence to point in that direction.

That graph is a lie and self serving since it doesnt show the volumes of emissions the rest of the world increaces 1.4% from a low base? And is towering over others

The point of posting the graph was to show that the West had lowered CO2 emissions while the rest of the world has generally increased. But if it makes you feel better, here is a chart showing emissions by countries. You will note that your emissions have climbed steadily while the United States has shown a significant decrease in the past decade. In fact we are scarcely above where we were in 1990. Your per capita emissions are also above ours. Just sayin. If the rest of the world was following the example of the U.S. and Western Europe, CO2 emissions would be down substantially.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions

And here's the chart done a little differently. It certainly does appear that the relative amounts shown in the first one were accurate.

https://vajiramandravi.s3.us-east-1.amazonaws.com/media/2019/12/5/10/16/20/Global_carbon_project.jpg

The graph is deceiving because it suggests that the rest of the world must make the reduction effort when it is the developed countries that have massive emissions and must continue to make large reductions

I didn't see that the graph was trying to suggest anything, but it does show very clearly that the West is leading the way in reducing carbon emissions and that China is far and away the leading "culprit", if that is the correct term to use. If China and the "rest of the world" do not reverse their explosive growth, then it won't much matter what we do.

I didn't see that the graph was trying to suggest anything, but it does show very clearly that the West is leading the way in reducing carbon emissions and that China is far and away the leading "culprit", if that is the correct term to use. If China and the "rest of the world" do not reverse their explosive growth, then it won't much matter what we do.china is only a culprit because the west transferred much of the manufacturing there just another lie of capitalists to deflect blame things will move from china to india and then india will be the culprit. Its insane

china is only a culprit because the west transferred much of the manufacturing there just another lie of capitalists to deflect blame things will move from china to india and then india will be the culprit. Its insaneThe decrease of carbon emissions in the U.S. has little to do with manufacturing. It is largely due to a greatly increased use of natural gas as opposed to coal and increased usage of renewable energy sources. That combined with more efficient usage accounts for most of it.

China's manufacturing surge accounts for some of their problems, but their increases in personal earnings, and the increased use of energy that brings on, is a large contributor.

Thank goodness for capitalism.

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/electricity/electricity-in-the-us.php

Few nations on the Earth have our technology or creative way of financing stuff. That was a great link JL, with some great embedded links as well. It illustrates the solution to GW/CC or whatever, lies in a GLOBAL effort that others nations are just not completely ready for. Heck to be fair we are just getting the bugs out of our own systems.

I think Clete just stopped at the pretty colors of the charts you provided. Shame.

Few nations on the Earth have our technology or creative way of financing stuff. That was a great link JL, with some great embedded links as well. It illustrates the solution to GW/CC or whatever, lies in a GLOBAL effort that others nations are just not completely ready for. Heck to be fair we are just getting the bugs out of our own systems.

I think Clete just stopped at the pretty colors of the charts you provided. Shame.very disingenuous of you tal, you know i think AGW is bunk and if anything is a northern hemisphere problem, a myth started by Thatcher for political purposes. You drink the koolaid if you want but posts suggesting others should change their lifestyle to preserve yours are bunk

posts suggesting others should change their lifestyle to preserve yours are bunkIf anyone had posted a suggestion of that sort, then you would have a valid complaint. Since they didn't, then you don't. My point is simply that the west is leading the way in reducing carbon emissions. There is no point beyond that. Like you, I don't know that I accept the whole theory to begin with.

Yes reducing from a high base, dont stretch your arm too far the whole of the debate is about others changing their lifestyle to suit your point of view

You don't have to change your lifestyle to upgrade technology or learn best practice techniques do you? That's a pretty wild statement.

We arn't talking about that, the response to the theory of AGW requires a total change of lifestyle because more is demanded all the time. Don't use coal to generate electricity, use gas. Don't use gas use solar, use wind. When the sun doesn't shine or the wind blow you are back to old technology or do without refrigeration. Everything modern technology gives requires electricity and we arn't smart enough to figure out fusion'

But my argument remains AGW is a myth, climate change is not a myth, it has been happening for thousands of years and again we arn't smart enough to figure out why

But my argument remains AGW is a myth, climate change is not a myth, it has been happening for thousands of years and again we arn't smart enough to figure out why

This may help you understand why AGW is NOT a myth. It's not an easy read but since you claim to be a smart guy, it shouldn't be too difficult for you.

We know that the increase in atmospheric CO2 is anthropogenic from a number of lines of evidence. Atmospheric oxygen is decreasing (https://skepticalscience.com/co2-coming-from-ocean.htm) at approximately the same rate as the atmospheric CO2 increase, which tells us that the source of the change is from a release of carbon combining with atmospheric oxygen rather than a natural release of CO2.

Thus we know that human emissions are increasing the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, which as a greenhouse gas, in turn increases the greenhouse effect. This increases the amount of energy (in the form of longwave infrared radiation) reaching the Earth's surface. We've observed this increase through spectroscopy (https://skepticalscience.com/empirical-evidence-for-co2-enhanced-greenhouse-effect-advanced.htm), which measures changes in the electromagnetic spectrum. Climate scientists have also quantified the amount of warming (https://skepticalscience.com/empirical-evidence-for-co2-enhanced-greenhouse-effect-advanced.htm) we expect to see from the energy imbalance caused by this increased downward radiation, and it matches well with observations. Given the amount of CO2 humans have added to the atmosphere already, once the planet reaches a new equilibrium state, it will have warmed approximately 1.4°C from pre-industrial levels. Additionally, we have observed numerous key 'fingerprints' (https://skepticalscience.com/its-not-us-advanced.htm) of anthropogenic global warming which confirm that the warming we've experienced is due to an increased greenhouse effect.

There are some positive effects of global warming from increased CO2 emissions. For example, improved agriculture at high latitudes and increased vegetation growth in some circumstances. However, the negatives will far outweigh the positives (https://skepticalscience.com/global-warming-positives-negatives.htm). Coast-bound communities are threatened by rising sea levels (https://skepticalscience.com/sea-level-rise-predictions.htm). Melting glaciers threaten the water supplies of hundreds of millions (https://skepticalscience.com/IPCC-Himalayan-glacier-2035-prediction.htm). Species are already becoming extinct at a rate 100 to 1000 times higher than the “background” rate of long spans of geological time (https://skepticalscience.com/Can-animals-and-plants-adapt-to-global-warming.htm), partially due to the effects of global warming and climate change.

Another impact of increasing atmospheric CO2 emissions is ocean acidification. Among other impacts, this decreasing oceanic pH has a damaging effect on corals, which form the habitat of approximately 25% of marine species (Karleskint et al. 2009 (http://books.google.com/books?id=0JkKOFIj5pgC&pg=PA414&lpg=PA414&dq=corals+habitat+25%25+marine+species&source=bl&ots=Rkt3WmqMtK&sig=-y8ZysPhzMilY9We1Me-zu-nVDg&hl=en&ei=pWanTPqeJISosQOb1oWSDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDIQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=corals%20habitat%2025%25%20marine%20species&f=false)). A seminal study co-authored by 17 marine scientists (Hoegh-Guldberg et al. 2007 (http://media.eurekalert.org/aaasnewsroom/2008/FIL_000000000120/HoeghGuldberg%20et%20al.%202007%20complete.pdf)) found:
"Many experimental studies have shown that a doubling of pre-industrial [CO2] atm to 560 ppm decreases coral calcification and growth by up to 40% through the inhibition of aragonite formation (the principal crystalline form of calcium carbonate deposited in coral skeletons) as carbonate-ion concentrations decrease"
Thus not only does anthropogenic CO2 act as a dangerous pollutant due to its impacts on global warming and climate change, but it also has a major effect on marine ecosystems through ocean acidification.

When considering the legal definition of "air pollutants" and body of scientific evidence, it becomes clear that CO2 meets the definition and poses a significant threat to public health and welfare.

Here's the data for you.

https://skepticalscience.com/print.php?r=281

CO2 is an atmospheric gas, there have been high concentrations in the past, we are still here. Corals are very adaptive and have been here for millions of years. AGW is a myth started by thatcher to justify nuclear power stations and are we replacing coal with nuclear, not any more, because nuclear has been proving to be dangerous. Everything in life is dangerous, but plant life thrives, so we have to adapt and stop doing certain things, like destruction of rain forest which absorbs CO2. The problem isn't CO2, it is human population, the most prolific pollutant on the planet. The industries that have sprung up to combat CO2 are just as destructive and "polluting" as coal and oil. There have been many myths over the past decades, remember peak oil, no one speaks of it today, and then there was the impending ice age brought on by AGW, just vanished into the thin air it was made of.

AGW is a northern hemisphere myth and a northern hemisphere problem and the problem is population but don't worry the planet is fighting back, latest manifestation covid 19, a far greater threat than CO2 ever was

AGW is a northern hemisphere myth and a northern hemisphere problem and the problem is population but don't worry the planet is fighting back, latest manifestation covid 19, a far greater threat than CO2 ever wasCOVID is the planet fighting back? What?

There is no question but that CO2 levels are rising, though CO2 remains a tiny, tiny fraction of atmospheric gases. Still, it certainly appears that the burning of fossil fuels is one part of the problem, and possibly the major part. The question remains, "What should we do about it?" That's the thorny issue. The Green New Deal is madness. The U.S. has been reducing CO2 emissions for two decades by a greater use of natural gas and renewables. So has the EU. If the rest of the world would follow that lead, it would be marginally helpful, but I don't see any solution that would bring about any real change in the next several decades.

The use of renewables is filled with problems. It's similar to deciding to use sailing ships for ocean voyages rather than modern ships. That's fine until...the wind stops blowing. Then you have to use modern ships to help out, so you have to have two ships instead of just one. It's just foolishness, or it is unless we want to accept an energy grid that is both more expensive and less reliable.

You can't look at it as either or, more like a MIX of everything as things develop. To not develop other means would be the shame. Just look at your phone and think what if we had not developed it from the old Bell phones. Yeah it costs, but the jobs are there too! Some places are better suited than others but the potential cannot be measured or ignored.

It's an investment that should be stopped because YOU may not have the resources that I do. You'll catch up eventually. Heck you may even develop you're own from what resources you do have.

CO2 is an atmospheric gas, there have been high concentrations in the past, we are still here.

You didn't read the scientific information I posted, did you? I didn't think you would since people like you prefer to remain in your cocoons of self-satisfied misinformation. Every false point you made is completely debunked in the post you refused to read. Like the proverbial horse, you were offered water but you refused to drink.

people like you prefer to remain in your cocoons of self-satisfied misinformation.A real promoter of civil discourse. At any rate, his "scientific information" failed to point out that the number one greenhouse gas in the atmosphere, by far, is not CO2, but water vapor. And every link I tried went to some site named "Skeptical Science" which is simply a question/answer format. It is scarcely a site anyone would go to in an attempt to gain any real data.

Where do water vapors come from? Can't blame you for not knowing the science behind them.

Athos, I have read much "scientific information" on the subject and it is all predicated on the idea "the sky is falling". We must do this or else, and you do know that even if we stopped all CO2 emissions today the "problem" would not go away because the "problem" is multi layered and the cause of climate change isn't down to one single factor, but certainly down to factors we are not taking into account. This is the religion of science gone mad, the idea we have the power to alter our environment

even if we stopped all CO2 emissions today the "problem" would not go away because the "problem" is multi layeredI think that's a pretty fair statement. Temps are rising marginally. They have not risen nearly as much as the high powered computer modeling programs predicted. Water vapor, being a purely natural phenomenon, is the biggest player. I'm all for controlling CO2 emissions, but I've never seen any credible plan for getting to lower levels that doesn't involve the fairy tale of "going green" with renewables. The cost is prohibitive, and the result would be an energy grid with no reliability without burning fossil fuels during downtimes, and what good is that? So we still wait on answers from the shrill crowd.

Athos, I have read much "scientific information" on the subject and it is all predicated on the idea "the sky is falling".

Not true. Read this site https://skepticalscience.com/print.php?r=281 as a starter. I think you will learn something.


We must do this or else, and you do know that even if we stopped all CO2 emissions today the "problem" would not go away because the "problem" is multi layered and the cause of climate change isn't down to one single factor

Every problem begins with a single step.


This is the religion of science gone mad, the idea we have the power to alter our environment

Of course we have that power. Obviously not totally, but enough to fix problems as they occur. We've been doing it for thousands of years.

I think that's a pretty fair statement. Temps are rising marginally. They have not risen nearly as much as the high powered computer modeling programs predicted. Water vapor, being a purely natural phenomenon, is the biggest player. I'm all for controlling CO2 emissions, but I've never seen any credible plan for getting to lower levels that doesn't involve the fairy tale of "going green" with renewables. The cost is prohibitive, and the result would be an energy grid with no reliability without burning fossil fuels during downtimes, and what good is that? So we still wait on answers from the shrill crowd.
Hi Jl, I believe that climate change is due to factors beyond our control, hot nebula gasses, increase in solar temperature and destruction of our environment due to over population. One factor I have mentioned is within our purvue but unthinkable, population control, so we have settled for the lesser evil of reducing CO2 emissions without any truly viable alternatives. Electric autos still required electricity, our cities cannot run without electricity and solar and wind cannot provided what is needed, when it is needed, exchanging coal for gas is short term thinking and as the lobby wants zero emissions is anathema

climate change is due to factors beyond our control, hot nebula gasses, increase in solar temperature and destruction of our environment due to over population.That could very well be the case.

The only viable, non-carbon answer is nuclear, but the lefty dems wet their pants at the very mention of it, so we're stuck with what we have.

I have long believed nuclear is the answer to pollution of various kinds and certainly is a viable answer to coal and oil. The world is awash with pollution from the oil industry, plastics are a serious problem. Modern reactors have dealt with the issue of waste, just don't build them in earthquake zones

Modern reactors have dealt with the issue of waste, just don't build them in earthquake zonesHow have they dealt with the issue of waste?

How have they dealt with the issue of waste?

Fast breeder reactors consume most of the fuel so disposal of waste isn't the problem it once was, but the "greenies" won't have nuclear at any price, they want zero CO2 but they would rather live in a polluted, over populated, world

look up thorium

Thorium-based nuclear power - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium-based_nuclear_power)


As of 2021, there are no operational thorium reactors in the world.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium-based_nuclear_power#cite_note-1)

Let me know when your theory becomes reality.

I'm talking solutions here

Are there any current plants using the breeder reactor technology?

One way or the other, even current plants do not produce an enormous volume of fuel rod waste. It is presently all stored on site. We sank about ten bil into a storage facility in Nevada. We got it just about finished, and then Obama decided to shut it down. Something about wanting to have his cake and eat it, too.

I'm talking solutions here

To be precise POSSIBLE solutions.

Are there any current plants using the breeder reactor technology?

One way or the other, even current plants do not produce an enormous volume of fuel rod waste. It is presently all stored on site. We sank about ten bil into a storage facility in Nevada. We got it just about finished, and then Obama decided to shut it down. Something about wanting to have his cake and eat it, too.

Hope you don't mind if your spin is replaced by FACTS, since repubs and the dufus did nothing about the Nevada sight either.

Yucca Mountain nuclear waste repository - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yucca_Mountain_nuclear_waste_repository)

A reading of the "facts" would suggest that Yucca Mountain is not a prime site

A reading of the "facts" would suggest that Yucca Mountain is not a prime siteWhich ones?

Which ones?
water table, location

water table, locationI would think the location is great. It's a zillion miles away from any towns. As to water table, that was all taken into account in the incredibly thorough planning that went on from the outset. We have hundreds of landfills and have learned to manage them without groundwater problems. The same would be true with YM.

Except Nevada doesn't want the above ground waste site. Nobody does.

Nevada seeks to nix govt nuclear waste storage plan | Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nuclear-nevada-storage-idUSN2228872720061222)

Looks dead on arrival. Maybe Mississippi should volunteer its land for such a facility.

In Texas people are going to their cars to get warm because there are rolling blackouts in neighborhoods serviced by windmills . Evidently the windmills fail in icy cold weather .
https://www.statesman.com/story/news/2021/02/14/historic-winter-storm-freezes-texas-wind-turbines-hampering-electric-generation/4483230001/

Wind’s share has tripled to about 25% since 2010 and accounted for 42% of power in Texas last week before the freeze set in.
Do we track the number of people killed by green energy decisions?
https://scontent-lga3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/s1080x2048/151166123_10222443659854002_2790477970390753512_o. jpg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=g-0wdFuwE3kAX900S8B&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-2.xx&tp=7&oh=6a990ac353983b48c9bd927e12b87d09&oe=60533960

Thank you liberal dems.

The ice age cometh

More likely, the Rapture cometh....

perhaps they will coincide

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/150817449_10219716352241474_5665437346180155968_n. jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=3&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=BaK8Rq6RIfIAX98BQoB&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=03da582b6909a5692178eb106d2651fb&oe=60533DA1

solar panels this week https://ak.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/23905105/thumb/1.jpg
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some technologies just don't thrive in extremes, now there is no record of a snow storm stopping nuclear energy production or shutting down a thermal power station

Thermal power will never be a major player here. Nuclear, on the other hand, is a proven technology. I think you make a good point on that.

by thermal I also mean coal or gas fired

by thermal I also mean coal or gas firedOK. Understood.

Greetings fringers from the frozen great state of Texas where the infrastructure energy grid has been neglected by the conservatives for years. That includes the coal, gas, and thermal sources.

Thanks conservative repubs who run Texas for not doing your jobs and trying to blame dems.

Glad you admit that fossil fuels need to be the primary source of energy in your state instead of building massive wind farms as a primary source of power .Wind power is nothing more than an expensive unsightly supplemental source ,and always will be .

Obviously you are right to put the blame on your Repub leaders .

It's all hands on deck Tom, use what you got and have them ALL ready when needed. Freezing gas lines are unacceptable. Others in cold climate manage to do it, and shamefully so should Texas. Making it an ideological narrative is shameful. Political negligence is the blame.

It's not like this snuck up on us, it was predicted and known as is the coming of another winter storm. Both headed your way. That offer of trading governors still stands!

It's amazing how the supporters of those who advocate for the Green New Deal and alternative energy sources have changed their tunes now that it's them sitting in the cold and dark. Hopefully this will be a wake up call so effective that even liberal dems can see the light.

"It's all hands on deck " 100 % agree . Let the market decide


That offer of trading governors still stands!



Will be a moot point in a couple weeks . My Guv will be Henry McMaster .

NY pays some of the highest energy costs in the nation by refusing to either frack on one of the largest reserves in the nation ;and by banning pipeline construction. And it is totally il duce Cuomo's decision . Natural gas production in Pennsylvania has increased 60% since Cuomo's ban on fracking five years ago, adding $6 billion to Pennsylvania's GDP. They tap into the same shale field that is in NY State .
You say all hands on deck .il Duce is committed to carbon neutrality . What you are experiencing NY has had for years . Every storm produces 100s of thousands of NYers with disrupted services ;and presumably we are prepared for cold weather .
And we pay for it . New Yorkers pay about 40% more for electricity than Pennsylvanians and 15% more than in New Jersey. Upstate NY lives in a 1930s state of depression to this day. And that is where the Marcellus Formation is located . Much of upstate NY still relies on home oil heating that has to be trucked in ;and emits 40% more CO2 than natural gas .Even NYC is not getting new gas hookups because of the constraint of building new pipelines to service the homes and businesses . The idiot thinks the demand could be met by trucking natural gas in or bringing it into the city on large barges .
On top of that ; Indian Point nuke is being decommissioned . There are no plans to replace it with a new nuke . The energy it generated will be replaced by what ? natural gas ,solar and windmills on mountain tops . You can't make this up.

My daughter and her husband live in Texas. They've been without power for 3 days now in sub freezing temps. They're going to a hotel in another town for tonight in hopes that maybe power will be back up tomorrow, but even at that will have to hope the pipes in their apartment complex are not frozen. It's hard to imagine how we got into such a stupid situation with this dependence on windmills.

There is no dependence of windmills (renewables) in Texas, we don't have power because of the neglect of the main power producers. The failure to winterize was always a consideration since it has happened before and the rolling brownouts during the summer were a warning of neglecting the most basic preventive maintenance protocols akin to not checking and changing your car fluids in a reasonable time. Mother Nature has exposed the system weaknesses much like covid exposed the weakness of our society in being prepared for when stuff happens.

Whose job is it to prepare the Texas grid against stuff happening? Sure wasn't AOC or the green deal...or liberal dems! Whose left?

Texas gets nearly 20% of its electricity from wind power and another smaller portion from solar. Those shut down at the very time demand went up in cold weather. Anyone willing to think clearly about it will see that the decision by the feds to pump wind and solar power was a bad one. Hopefully this nightmare will be the death knell of the dumbest idea to come along in ages which is the Green New Deal. Can you imagine what a disaster this would have been if Texas was getting 80% of its power from wind and solar? How great it would have been for AOC and her crowd to have been stuck in Texas these past few days. Perhaps she would have seen the light.

Texas gets nearly 20% of its electricity from wind power and another smaller portion from solar. Those shut down at the very time demand went up in cold weather. Anyone willing to think clearly about it will see that the decision by the feds to pump wind and solar power was a bad one. Hopefully this nightmare will be the death knell of the dumbest idea to come along in ages which is the Green New Deal. Can you imagine what a disaster this would have been if Texas was getting 80% of its power from wind and solar? How great it would have been for AOC and her crowd to have been stuck in Texas these past few days. Perhaps she would have seen the light.

Maybe you'll see the light when you realize that Texas not AOC is responsible for the system failure. Texas made the decisions that made them vulnerable to this rare cold spell, not some idea by AOC. That's fringer talk by someone without facts, evidence, or the truth.

Explain why the gas lines froze, or the nuclear power had to shutdown because of the cold.

How and why a nuclear reactor shut down in Texas cold snap when energy was needed most (washingtonexaminer.com) (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/energy/how-and-why-a-nuclear-reactor-shut-down-in-texas-cold-snap-when-energy-was-needed-most)

The cold is at fault here not the equipment, which nobody here thought to winterize like parts of the country that is accustomed to dealing with this cold events. Texas was told to winterize it's power transmission grid in 2011 after that rare cold event. They didn't. All of this information is available in the Internet.

Maybe you'll see the light when you realize that Texas not AOC is responsible for the system failure. Texas made the decisions that made them vulnerable to this rare cold spell, not some idea by AOC. That's fringer talk by someone without facts, evidence, or the truth.

Texas was told to winterize it's power transmission grid in 2011 after that rare cold event. They didn't. All of this information is available in the Internet.

It's frustrating when the truth is out there but some refuse to acknowledge it. Frustrating but typical for those who, having eyes, see not.

Blaming the pols for not preparing the turbines to operate as they do in the Arctic is a bit of a stretch . For a cost of 5-10% base price for turbine you can heat them and put carbon fibers on the blades to prevent icing .Viola you are prepared for the one off event . Let me ask you ;do you blame the pols of Texas for not having a stock pile of salt readily available to prepare the roads for a one off snow event ? But because the highways were not properly prepped there was a 133 car pile up that cost at least 6 lives .

Here in NY 10s to 100,s of thousands lose power frequently in winter storms or when the wind blows too hard . Why ? Because transmission lines are on polls following the roads . Now that is preventable at a cost . Transmission lines could be buried . But the pols and the taxpayers are not prepared to take on the added cost

Texas as j pointed out is over reliant on renewables ;which is the more costly alternative . Texas pols of both parties have bought into the climate change hysteria .So a state with some of the biggest reserves of carbon based energy freezes because of climate political correctness.

Texas was told to winterize it's power transmission grid in 2011 after that rare cold event. They didn't. All of this information is available in the Internet.



It's frustrating when the truth is out there but some refuse to acknowledge it. Frustrating but typical for those who, having eyes, see not.As usual, it's the mysterious "out there somewhere" internet material.

can't imagine what it must be like to live above the arctic circle but wait you live above the tropic of cancer. The global warming (brrr) thing is certainly a northern hemisphere thing

Not according to this.

"Australia's climate has warmed, on average, by 1.44 degrees since 1910. Last year was the hottest year on record, with the greatest number of record-breaking hot days: 33 days that exceeded 39 degrees, compared with a total of 24 days between 1960 and 2018"

https://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/climate-change-is-already-here-major-scientific-report-20201112-p56dyl.html

can't imagine what it must be like to live above the arctic circle but wait you live above the tropic of cancer. The global warming (brrr) thing is certainly a northern hemisphere thing

(PS - You haven't explained why you think I'm an atheist. But that's ok - I forgive you).

Blaming the pols for not preparing the turbines to operate as they do in the Arctic is a bit of a stretch . For a cost of 5-10% base price for turbine you can heat them and put carbon fibers on the blades to prevent icing .Viola you are prepared for the one off event . Let me ask you ;do you blame the pols of Texas for not having a stock pile of salt readily available to prepare the roads for a one off snow event ? But because the highways were not properly prepped there was a 133 car pile up that cost at least 6 lives .

They got rid of a Chicago mayor for not plowing the streets during a blizzard so anything is possible, but I doubt Abbott gets booted for not insulating the pipes or having his state prepared for a decade weather event. This is my third such event since I've been here and I still don't have boots! As you say for the costs of winterizing it would have made this a non event, just as a pile of salt would have saved a lot of suffering but they don't use salt here just sand and they have plenty.

Amid the freeze little is being done to treat Austin's roads (statesman.com) (https://www.statesman.com/story/news/2021/02/16/amid-freeze-little-being-done-treat-austins-roads/6767035002/)

They tell everyone to stay home, and even as another storm approaches, they forecast 60 degrees for Sunday. So for as dire this is now it will be over soon. Texans understand they are on their own in this type of weather, but no excuse for not being prepared for the worst while hoping for the best Tom. Blaming it on AOC and a dependence on renewables was my main point. That's just nowhere near the truth, and that's loony!


Here in NY 10s to 100,s of thousands lose power frequently in winter storms or when the wind blows too hard . Why ? Because transmission lines are on polls following the roads . Now that is preventable at a cost . Transmission lines could be buried . But the pols and the taxpayers are not prepared to take on the added cost

I grew up in the frigid north, stuff happens no matter the preparations but Texas has the cheapest energy cost in America and the only state with an exclusive grid. We supply other states but cannot meet the high demand the storms caused with half a supply

Texas produces more power than any other state. Here's why it went dark anyway - CNN (https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/16/business/texas-power-energy-nightmare/index.html)


That means that when things are running smoothly, Texas can't export excess power to neighboring states. And in the current crisis, it can't import power either.


Pay me NOW, or pay me later!


Texas as j pointed out is over reliant on renewables ;which is the more costly alternative . Texas pols of both parties have bought into the climate change hysteria .So a state with some of the biggest reserves of carbon based energy freezes because of climate political correctness.

I've already shown that's fringer no nothing loony talk!

Blaming it on AOC and a dependence on renewables was my main point. That's just nowhere near the truth, and that's loony!

A great line is worth repeating!

I don't think anyone has blamed this particular event on AOC. We have blamed her for her support of the GND, which is stupidity on steroids.

I don't think anyone has blamed this particular event on AOC. We have blamed her for her support of the GND, which is stupidity on steroids.

Only to the technically challenged, or unimaginative among us, but like it or not it's definitely the future, how far is unknown but car companies are sure eliminating gas cars slowly but surely. So it's not that far fetched and no bills have been written yet.

untitled (house.gov) (https://ocasio-cortez.house.gov/sites/ocasio-cortez.house.gov/files/Resolution%20on%20a%20Green%20New%20Deal.pdf)

Which part do you disagree with and why?

but car companies are sure eliminating gas cars slowly but surely. good plan . you can't supply your homes with energy but you plan on electrifying the whole auto fleet Brilliant

Not according to this.

"Australia's climate has warmed, on average, by 1.44 degrees since 1910. Last year was the hottest year on record, with the greatest number of record-breaking hot days: 33 days that exceeded 39 degrees, compared with a total of 24 days between 1960 and 2018"

https://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/climate-change-is-already-here-major-scientific-report-20201112-p56dyl.html

strange that I live here and I can only remember cold events last year, the only really hot weather was at the start of the year when there were fires, 2020 was a wet year so I don't know where they get these temperature readings from, next to air conditioning units and in the middle of cities. Even the so called heat waves were non events compared to some years I remember. Once again you have drunk the koolaid


(PS - You haven't explained why you think I'm an atheist. But that's ok - I forgive you).

I think you are an atheist because of your anti christian views

good plan . you can't supply your homes with energy but you plan on electrifying the whole auto fleet Brilliant

Texas screwed up a few days and it cost some misery for a few during a RARE event for us. What does that have to do with the car companies?

you tell me . Do you think the national grid it up to it Here is the challenge . The average home in this country uses 30 kilowat to power appliances, computers, lights and heating and air conditioning. That takes an EV 100 miles . And the grid isn't divided evenly around the nation. What happens to EV when you have Texas sized blackouts? They are already talking about needing to charge EVs in off peak hrs . But people who drive need their vehicles charged and ready to go whenever they are needed .

electric vehicles are the same fallacy hydrogen powered vehicles are. We want to reduce energy dependence and yet every thing is done to increase dependence on the grid and why, to reduce mythical global warming. Sooner or later lifestyles have to change

I think you are an atheist because of your anti christian views

Ah, thank you.

Two questions for you:

1. Are Jews atheists because they don't believe Jesus is the Messiah? Can't get more anti-Christian than that. Same question (with variations) about the Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, et al?

2. What, specifically, are my anti-Christian views?

you tell me . Do you think the national grid it up to it Here is the challenge . The average home in this country uses 30 kilowat to power appliances, computers, lights and heating and air conditioning. That takes an EV 100 miles . And the grid isn't divided evenly around the nation. What happens to EV when you have Texas sized blackouts? They are already talking about needing to charge EVs in off peak hrs . But people who drive need their vehicles charged and ready to go whenever they are needed .

You're absolutely right Tom, the grid is the crucial part of the infrastructure plan that makes everything else possible and I will admit at this time we are nowhere near close. That should change in the next decade or so, when we can talk about money for implementation and not just the huge amount of dough investment for research and development.

you tell me . Do you think the national grid it up to it Here is the challenge . The average home in this country uses 30 kilowat to power appliances, computers, lights and heating and air conditioning. That takes an EV 100 miles . And the grid isn't divided evenly around the nation. What happens to EV when you have Texas sized blackouts? They are already talking about needing to charge EVs in off peak hrs . But people who drive need their vehicles charged and ready to go whenever they are needed .

ah convenience, the old excuse, the excuse for the gas guzzzling SUV, wonder how SUV will go with electric engines, won't deliver the same power

"It's all hands on deck " 100 % agree . Let the market decide

The market DID decide and look what happened!'

The right is freaking out blaming AOC and the "Green" crowd for Texas. Even the governor who initially blamed the lack of updating equipment changed his tune and started dissing AOC and "Green". Does the guy know that millions of people are seeing him and his lies on TV?

As more info comes available re Texas, it's becoming very clear that the Republican powers in charge for decades had been repeatedly warned about this very thing but did NOTHING to prevent it.

The right-wing comments about wind power conveniently omit info about Canada and Greenland and other countries who have successfully utilized wind power in cold climates.

The right-wing comments about wind power conveniently omit info about Canada and Greenland and other countries who have successfully utilized wind power in cold climates.

I already addressed this . For a cost largely unjustified for a 50 year event ,the windmills can be weatherized .One of the best ways is to blow gas powered heat into the blades .



As more info comes available re Texas, it's becoming very clear that the Republican powers in charge for decades had been repeatedly warned about this very thing but did NOTHING to prevent it.

I don't give the Repubs a pass . But it is a warning sign about over reliance on renewables .


The market DID decide and look what happened!'


nope it was mostly a government call The market would not choose a more expensive ;less dependable method of supplying energy . see Texas ​Renewable portfolio standard (RPS ) . Texas’s RPS mandates 5,000 megawatts (MW) of new renewables be installed in Texas by 2015 ,and 10,000 MW of renewable energy capacity by 2025.


ah convenience, the old excuse, the excuse for the gas guzzzling SUV wonder how SUV will go with electric engines, won't deliver the same power

Clete they do not have the same horse power ,but electric or hybrid SUVs are available . They cost more . You know why gas lines went down in Texas ? Well it used to be that the pumps were powered by gas . But now it is mandated that they are powered by electric . So when the electric wend down the gas used as back up power did not flow .

.

I already addressed this . For a cost largely unjustified for a 50 year event ,the windmills can be weatherized .One of the best ways is to blow gas powered heat into the blades .

This is actually the 3rd event in the last 19 years. Ask me how I know that as FACT?


I don't give the Repubs a pass . But it is a warning sign about over reliance on renewables .


Nope, an initial investment to insulate with the right equipment and a routine maintenance program would have saved the misery, and lives.


nope it was mostly a government call The market would not choose a more expensive ;less dependable method of supplying energy . see Texas ​Renewable portfolio standard (RPS ) . Texas’s RPS mandates 5,000 megawatts (MW) of new renewables be installed in Texas by 2015 ,and 10,000 MW of renewable energy capacity by 2025.

That's what the energy providers sold the politicians at a cheap price with enough subsidies and loopholes to drive a truck through.




Clete they do not have the same horse power ,but electric or hybrid SUVs are available . They cost more . You know why gas lines went down in Texas ? Well it used to be that the pumps were powered by gas . But now it is mandated that they are powered by electric . So when the electric wend down the gas used as back up power did not flow .

What part of frozen supply lines are we disputing here Tom? Abbott already tried that spin. Even if what you say is true it was repubs who mandated the protocols that led to this failure, and while not the first failure definitely the worst. Failure to address the real problem because of cost cutting just gets worse. The cold caused the diminished capacity to meet the increased demand.

Former governor Rick Perry said it best

Rick Perry suggests Texans prefer blackouts to federal energy regulation (yahoo.com) (https://news.yahoo.com/rick-perry-suggests-texans-prefer-191900865.html)

You buying that too? Wonder who he asked? Certainly nobody in my family who lost power for days. Having your own grid may puff up the ego, but a screw up can't be blamed on the feds, or federal policy.

Can't wait for my next electric bill.

.




Clete they do not have the same horse power ,but electric or hybrid SUVs are available . They cost more . You know why gas lines went down in Texas ? Well it used to be that the pumps were powered by gas . But now it is mandated that they are powered by electric . So when the electric wend down the gas used as back up power did not flow .

so this is a prime example of why the environmental lobby is wrong, diversity is what keeps systems running, redundancy is what keeps systems running, it is not the planet that is in danger, it is the population, in danger of foolish ideas carried to extreme. we had the same sort of thing happen here a whole state reliant on wind power without supply because coal fired base line generation had been dismantled, they are reliant on battery back up now but it is still a foolish idea

. For a cost largely unjustified for a 50 year event


from Talinman
This is actually the 3rd event in the last 19 years.

'Nuff said.

This is actually the 3rd event in the last 19 years.


'Nuff said.

The previous two were not comparable to this one. "Texans are preparing themselves for a winter storm predicted to be unlike anything they've seen in decades.A polar vortex will bring temperatures in the Lone Star State to below zero (https://graphical.weather.gov/sectors/southplainsWeek.php#tabs) in the coming days, according to the National Weather Service. The service has issued a winter storm warning (https://www.weather.gov/) for the entire state.
In Houston, the NWS issued a wind chill warning (https://twitter.com/NWSHouston/status/1361029549186813962?s=20) for the first time in the city. Even as far south as San Antonio, residents are expected to receive two-to-three inches (https://www.weather.gov/ewx/) between Sunday and Monday morning."

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/texas-braces-storm-polar-vortex

if it is the third event in 19 years, then precautions surely need to be taken to secure power supply. Someone is derelict in thier duty, several someones, state governors and the like. Don't tell me it is up to the market, legislators need to make sure the market is responsive

if it is the third event in 19 years, then precautions surely need to be taken to secure power supply. Someone is derelict in thier duty, several someones, state governors and the like. Don't tell me it is up to the market, legislators need to make sure the market is responsive

The Republican government were repeatedly warned that precautions needed to be implemented. They refused to do so. Derelict in their duty is a good way to put it. The oft-quoted mantra of the right that the market will correct things failed miserably in this instance. Effective regulation was the answer - an answer ignored, leading to death and misery.

Much more simple undertaking to make nukes or natural gas facilities weather secure as opposed to solar or wind.

Much more simple undertaking to make nukes or natural gas facilities weather secure as opposed to solar or wind.

You must secure all your systems for efficient functions in all conditions. Anything less is irresponsible.

How do you secure solar against a covering of snow and loss of sunshine, how do you secure wind when the wind doesn't blow or they fail becuase of ice and snow. how do you secure the grid from similiar conditions, well at least that can be done, you underground it. Over reliance on market forces means you get the least done to secure the system, under reliance on regulation means you get the least done to secure the system. Seems to me you have a lot of slackers over there

This is actually the 3rd event in the last 19 years.

Central Texas near Ft Hood ,they had a record 205 hrs below freezing between 2/10 and today . Previous record was 150 hrs in 1983 .Abiline had 252 consecutive hours . So no ;this is something Texas has not experienced recently .

still no excuse Tom, climate change means the unpredictable can happen, will happen and has to be anticipated. Business as usual is never a good model

come on man !! (apologies to Quid) you can't prepare for all contingencies and it is silly to expend a lot of resources preparing for a 100 year event . Multi car pile ups happen in the southern states because they don't have mountains of salt and sand ready to spread at the 1st sign of a snow flake .

the unpredictable can happen, will happen and has to be anticipated.Don't you live in the country that recently had devastating wildfires? Why weren't they anticipated and prevented? Truth is, stuff happens, but this reliance on wind turbines just makes no sense.

Don't you live in the country that recently had devastating wildfires? Why weren't they anticipated and prevented? Truth is, stuff happens, but this reliance on wind turbines just makes no sense.

for the same reason they arn't in your country, too much listening to environmentalists who fought against burn off of fuel loads and created the environment where these things could happen. For centuries the aboriginal burnt the country but these johnnie come latelies knew better and what did we get? massive fires that could not be contained. I'm sure you have those who think clean air paramount to public safety. I agree that wind turbines might be part of the mix but absolute foolishness to rely on them for base load. We learned that the hard way in South Australia when a leftist government shut down coal fired base load

First you said, "...the unpredictable can happen, will happen and has to be anticipated." Now you say, "for the same reason they arn't in your country." And that was my objection. It would be great if every unpredictable act of nature could be anticipated and prevented, but that sometimes simply doesn't happen. True here, and true in your country. The question now is whether or not we will learn anything from it. One can only hope.

Bush fires are anticipated in my country, they are an inevitable part of living here, however exactly when and where they will happen is unknown. Much of the fires we incur are either stupidity or lightning but unfortunately the former is all too prevalent, from kids, to trail bikes to unattended camp fires, to local burn offs that got away, this even happens to the experts. They are anticipated with every small town having a bush fire brigade manned by volunteers equiped by government.

What I see here is that you cannot take criticism of obvious bloody minded policies by your local government authorities who have failed your public miserably

Actually it’s the hyper critical, know it all attitude that gets old. Hopefully it will occur to you some day that you might miss a few things from 12,000 miles away.

You fail to understand that everything that happens in your country is under a microscope of international media. If we miss anything it is because of the bias of the media who selectively report the news. We may as well live on the same continent so intent is the media on reporting everything that happens and, of course, we have the internet, much maligned, but still effective

Brush fires in Australia are given a long winded explanation telling us about how many unexpected events influence those events. When it comes to the U.S., it is " bloody minded policies by your local government authorities who have failed your public miserably." That's what I mean about the hyper-critical attitude. Texas struggled during the ice storm, but the rest of the country rode it out quite well. I'll take this winter storm as opposed to tens of thousands of square miles going up in smoke.

Our Bush fires don't cause 100 vehicle pile ups on freeways becuase roads are shut when the threat appears, please explain why your roads remained open

Our Bush fires don't cause 100 vehicle pile ups on freeways becuase roads are shut when the threat appears, please explain why your roads remained openWhat difference does it make? You have problems, and we have problems. Some are handled well, and some are not. It is a common experience.

Our Bush fires don't cause 100 vehicle pile ups on freeways becuase roads are shut when the threat appears, please explain why your roads remained open

You pick one localized issue to compare to a national crisis? Are you numb to the fact you live in a glass house?

we all live in glass houses Tal, you are sensitive because it happened in your state, perhaps even to you but it was far from a localised issue. Bad weather appears to be the achillies heal of the US, you may not realise it but you suffer far more of it if news reports are to be believed.

I'm sure you can forgive me being an old grouch having suffered through this covid thing the weather and 4 years of the dufus and his lunatic cult. The effects seem to linger.

it was far from a localised issue.Actually it was localized, being primarily in various parts of Texas and Louisiana.


Bad weather appears to be the achillies heal of the US, you may not realise it but you suffer far more of it if news reports are to be believed.That's quite a statement coming from a citizen of a country where more than 50% of the land is basically desert. Bad weather events in our country get a lot of press, but when you consider how large the U.S. is, it is a very small part of the whole.

This belongs on the thread about big tech, but it seems to not be working for some reason. I don't think this is the "most powerful piece of political art I've ever seen", but it is powerful.


https://www.bing.com/images/blob?bcid=SOW3YymowmwC9w

Actually it was localized, being primarily in various parts of Texas and Louisiana.

That's quite a statement coming from a citizen of a country where more than 50% of the land is basically desert. Bad weather events in our country get a lot of press, but when you consider how large the U.S. is, it is a very small part of the whole.

And the desert is over reported about Australia you forget this land is as large as the US and you have deserts too. The big difference is the abundance of water. All it takes to make our arid lands bloom is water. We make good use of the land we have thus our place in the economic scheme of things

And the desert is over reported about Australia you forget this land is as large as the US and you have deserts too. The big difference is the abundance of water. All it takes to make our arid lands bloom is water. We make good use of the land we have thus our place in the economic scheme of thingsAussie land is large but smaller than the U.S. by nearly a million square miles. You have about 8% of our population and less than 8% of our economy, so that says a lot. But I was not making an anti-Australia comment. I like and respect your country. I was simply pointing out that weather is a major problem in your country. It's why most of the country cannot be meaningfully farmed or inhabited.

Aussie land is large but smaller than the U.S. by nearly a million square miles. You have about 8% of our population and less than 8% of our economy, so that says a lot. But I was not making an anti-Australia comment. I like and respect your country. I was simply pointing out that weather is a major problem in your country. It's why most of the country cannot be meaningfully farmed or inhabited.

The weather problems here are not of the same magnitude, now that may be because of lower population. We have learned to live with drought and floods, with bush fires and while these things devastate the regions they affect the effects are mitigated. The reason much of the inland is arid or marginal lands is lack of water. You are blessed with the great lakes, we have no such system to sustain the inland otherwise it would be populated as yours is. Such arable land as there is, is well used and we export agricultural products to the world so your comments show lack of knowledge. you cannot tell what a place is like by looking at a map. This is the sixth largest nation on Earth by area and that million square miles you use to claim your ascendancy we possess in Antartica.We are the 15th largest nation economically, not bad for a nation with only 8% of your population. The weather here is beautiful one day and sublime the next, only on a few days of the year do we experience storms. Perhaps you have never heard this is "the great south land of the Holy Spirit" a different place

I'm not arguing with any of that. I am simply pointing out that your weather problems are at least as serious as ours if you count, as you should, lack of rainfall to be a weather problem.


we possess in AnarcticaWe both know very well that Antarctica is not a part of Australia.


You are blessed with the great lakes, we have no such system to sustain the inland otherwise it would be populated as yours is. Such arable land as there is, is well used and we export agricultural products to the world so your comments show lack of knowledge. The GL do not sustain the inland. It is sustained by adequate rainfall as is most of the country. I'm sure your arable land is well used. I've never said otherwise. Your comment shows a lack of comprehension.

don't you have deserts that lack rainfall, your south west is arid lands how much of your land is unusable or tied up in federal lands?

Yes, we have a desert area and it is large. It is located in the SW. Most of the fed lands are either woodlands, national parks, or large areas which are leased to cattle ranchers. If it was up to me, we'd sell off most of it. I have no idea how much of our land is unusable. Some of the dry areas are farmed with irrigation. Don't really know but looking on a map, I'd guess 15% or so.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Deserts_of_North_America.svg/800px-Deserts_of_North_America.svg.png

Got a lot of mexico in that map seems like there is just as much green in this one

https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.regjGDLvzLKZToFxS7eP4gHaGK?pid=ImgDet&rs=1

this one might be more in line with your thinking
https://australian-deserts.weebly.com/uploads/1/3/7/9/13795948/4933967_orig.jpg

What do you think of this? It is a chart of arable land by country.



COUNTRY NAME
HECTARES


United States (https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/arable-land)
152,262,500


Australia (https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AUS/australia/arable-land)
46,048,000




https://www.bing.com/search?q=tillable+land+in+Australia&PC=U316&FORM=CHROMN

If it was up to me, we'd sell off most of it.
Yep, you'd bulldoze the awesome formations in Bryce National Park and blow up the magnificent arches in Arches National Park, put in condos, then establish the Grand Canyon as the nation's landfill (like, what else is that deep hole good for???). Had Trump gotten a second term, I have no doubt he would have leaned toward doing exactly that. He had already made moves to build his wall through nature sanctuaries and national land.

no way to make a comparison with size I didn't have any doubt you have more arible land in the US

you rank 2nd in the world for arible land and Australia sixth but many countries don't have more than 10% arible land so you are blessed with 16% put that together with water and it works for you until the weather turns against you

There is plenty of land the nation owns that is not national monuments travelled to for recreation. And most of those visits are to a hand full of parks . j is talking about the rest of the 28 % of the land mass of the United States owned by the Federal government . And as for those recreational sites ; I have been to a couple of them . They are NOT well managed . Perhaps contracting them out to private interests within guidelines would be the way to go .

as always the free market advocate Tom

Yep, you'd bulldoze the awesome formations in Bryce National Park and blow up the magnificent arches in Arches National Park, put in condos, then establish the Grand Canyon as the nation's landfill (like, what else is that deep hole good for???). Had Trump gotten a second term, I have no doubt he would have leaned toward doing exactly that. He had already made moves to build his wall through nature sanctuaries and national land.Don't be a drama queen. No one is suggesting that.

Don't be a drama queen. No one is suggesting that.
The last thing we need in this country is more development!

where I am moving ;to South Carolina ,there is development everywhere you see. People can't buy new homes there fast enough . But that is not what j is talking about . Almost 85 % of the land in Nevada is owned by the Feds . That is ratable that the state and local authorities do not collect . Over 45 % of California is owned by the Feds . It is obscene ! We don't have that issue in NY . Less than 1% is owned by the Feds .

all that land locked up, shutting the developers and exploiters out, what a travesty

it is a travesty . All you need is guidelines as to what the land can be uses for . Private interests have to navigate zone requirments all the time . No one is advocating laisse faire so stop the strawman now .

It is a travesty. National parks are reasonable. For most of the rest, it's hard to understand.

across the board a trvesty . Example . I went to White Mountain forest . 6 million people visit annually . Facilities and rest rooms were barely maintained . Why ? Entrance and parking is free . This is prime recreation . I gladly pay $10 -$20 for parking and use of the park at private parks all over the east . No one would object to reasonable fees for use . Even camping is free . But the pigs leave their garbage behind .

yes there are pigs everywhere, maybe a good reason for keeping the land locked up

But the pigs leave their garbage behind .
Did you pick it up and help with the cleanup?

Clete, thought you'd be glad to know that wifey and I watched an Aussie movie tonight titled "The Riddle of the Stinson". It was quite good. Had to admire the toughness of those Aussie bushmen.

Interesting, I've not heard of that one but if you like that sort of thing Sweet Country might be one to watch