There are 3 more or less successful vaccines waiting in the wings to be approved and distributed.

The question:

Are these the result of free market enterprise?
OR
Are they the result of big government intervention?

Simple answer. Who developed and own those companies? Is it private individuals or the government?

Put another way. What was the absolutely essential element, the knowledge, skill, and experience of the privately owned pharm companies, or the money and lessening of regulations of big gov? Which one could you have eliminated and still gotten the job done?

Trump loosened the regulatory burden to speed up the process . So if you think that easing the regulatory burden is the same as big government intervention then I now understand your confusion.

What regulatory burden did the dufus ease to speed up vaccine development?

he said do it

Trump loosened the regulatory burden to speed up the process . So if you think that easing the regulatory burden is the same as big government intervention then I now understand your confusion.

Read what follows. Look like socialism to you, Tomder? Or, if you prefer, a capitalism/socialism mix? Better yet, as I originally stated, capitalism modified by socialism.

OWS, the Trump Administration Operation Warp Speed, offered $456 million to vaccine research and development projects by Johnson and Johnson as well as a total of $955 million to Moderna for late-stage clinical testing. The $1.95 billion allocated to Pfizer was for large-scale manufacturing and nationwide distribution.

The work conducted by Pfizer and its partner, German drugmaker BioNTech, is an expansion of OWS and was operating under an agreement to meet the goal of OWS to deliver 300 million doses of a vaccine in 2021. “Pfizer is proud to be one of various vaccine manufacturers participating in Operation Warp Speed as a supplier of a potential COVID-19 vaccine,” said Sharon Castillo, a Pfizer spokesperson.

Mike Pence and Nikki Haley both credited the government with leading the public/private partnership leading to the success of the vaccine.

Who's confused now, tom?

OWS, the Trump Administration Operation Warp Speed, offered $456 million to vaccine research and development projects by Johnson and Johnson as well as a total of $955 million to Moderna for late-stage clinical testing. The $1.95 billion allocated to Pfizer was for large-scale manufacturing and nationwide distribution.Well, at least you are willing to give Trump credit for the rapid development of the vaccine. That's better than others on this board.

Well, at least you are willing to give Trump credit for the rapid development of the vaccine. That's better than others on this board.

Certainly good news but the question was not credit for the dufus but what was the regulatory easing that you have put forth. It's a given the labs were going to develop a vaccine ASAP, they always have, and they deserve as much credit as the dufus for what they have done, but your claim was regulatory relief and I want to know what it was...if you know.

A simple enough question since you offered it.

A simple enough question since you offered it.Kind of aggravating to ask a question and not get an answer, isn't it? I assure you I know exactly how you feel. I guess I could follow your example and tell you that Google is your friend.

Well, since I despise that approach, I'll give you this link which includes, " In some cases, the U.S. government has agreed to purchase vaccines that achieve emergency-use authorization or licensure from the FDA. In other cases, the U.S. government is paying to manufacture vaccine doses while clinical trials are underway. "

You can dig through the rest and find additional examples.

https://www.politifact.com/article/2020/nov/19/pfizer-moderna-covid-19-vaccines-and-operation-war/

And an interesting article about the anti-Trump at all costs media.

https://thefederalist.com/2020/11/09/media-lies-about-pfizer-partnership-with-trump-administrations-operation-warp-speed/

Thanks for the link about the contractual agreements, but I specified in my question the claim by you and Tom as to the regulatory burden that was eased. I can give the dufus his due credit for what he gets right, but do we have to exaggerate his doing his job and ignore what he didn't/doesn't do that makes things worse? I don't thinks so!

We have a vaccine in record time, but the very real deployment is MONTHS off. It would seem that with an endpoint in sight, targeted mitigation strategies would be ramped up to get us there, as even now the problem is exponentially growing out of control.

I mean dude is playing golf and not putting out the fires that crop up like he promised. He's more worried about making a case to unmasked crowds about voter fraud than sickness and death. Does that make sense to you? The election is over, his court cases have failed. History will write his legacy so whining to his base doesn't seem like a useful endeavor to what faces the nation.

Funny how you point out the dems hypocrisy while the holler masks and don't do it themselves but spare the dufus any such criticism for his holding super spreader events himself.

Tom as to the regulatory burden that was easedNot only did you not read the article, you didn't even read the excerpt I posted where it showed two areas where the regs were relaxed.


but the very real deployment is MONTHS off.Only if you believe that the end of December is MONTHS off. They expect to have twenty million vaccinated by the end of this month.

Not only did you not read the article, you didn't even read the excerpt I posted where it showed two areas where the regs were relaxed.

Only if you believe that the end of December is MONTHS off. They expect to have twenty million vaccinated by the end of this month.

Please show me and forgive my inability to see what you have articulated.

" In some cases, the U.S. government has agreed to purchase vaccines that achieve emergency-use authorization or licensure from the FDA.Not normally done.


In other cases, the U.S. government is paying to manufacture vaccine doses while clinical trials are underway. "Not normally done.

More.

"Protocols for the demonstration of safety and efficacy are being aligned, which will allow the trials to proceed more quickly, and the protocols for the trials will be overseen by the federal government, as opposed to traditional public-private partnerships, in which pharmaceutical companies decide on their own protocols. Rather than eliminating steps from traditional development timelines, steps will proceed simultaneously, such as starting manufacturing of the vaccine at industrial scale well before the demonstration of vaccine efficacy and safety as happens normally. This increases the financial risk, but not the product risk."

https://www.hhs.gov/coronavirus/explaining-operation-warp-speed/index.html

The NIH’s top vaccine maker wants Warp Speed to be the new normal | Ars Technica (https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/12/the-nihs-top-vaccine-maker-wants-warp-speed-to-be-the-new-normal/)

The Zika and Ebola outbreaks followed similar tracks. As we see from the links though is Big Pharma had already been working on corona viruses before last years outbreak.

That's nice to know.

yeah that it what capitallsts do. They anticipate a need and plan to provide goods and services for the need. The virus was first identified somewhere in the late fall last year . I expect they called in their PD staff and told them to do their science and perhaps get a jump on their competition .

New drug and device from R&D to approval averages from 7 to 12 years from pre-clinical trial to approval .

Drug Approvals - From Invention to Market...12 Years! (medicinenet.com) (https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=9877)

The vaccines will be approved and distribution will have begun in a matter of months . That would not have been possible without streamlining .

New drug and device from R&D to approval averages from 7 to 12 years from pre-clinical trial to approval .
The vaccines will be approved and distribution will have begun in a matter of months . That would not have been possible without streamlining .

I see you're avoiding my post # 6. I'm not surprised.

Who's confused now, tom?It's very clear that you are the one. To try and characterize OWS as a glowing example of socialism is as silly as trying to portray defense contracts in the same way. The government basically funded much of the work on the vaccines, relaxed regs to speed up the process, and private businesses (free enterprise) did the work. It's a great example of what can be done when the presence of the government is minimized.

It's very clear that you are the one. To try and characterize OWS as a glowing example of socialism is as silly as trying to portray defense contracts in the same way. The government basically funded much of the work on the vaccines, relaxed regs to speed up the process, and private businesses (free enterprise) did the work. It's a great example of what can be done when the presence of the government is minimized.

That's not completely accurate as Athos characterized OWS as public/private as do many others. A blend of many factors if you really need a label for emergency action during a crisis. None of us has to be confused if we stop with politicizing labels and comparing one thing over another when all hands on deck for whatever works best is the goal.

It really does prove that different things can be successfully blended together and actually work.


The vaccines will be approved and distribution will have begun in a matter of months . That would not have been possible without streamlining .

Collaborative cooperation is a good label.

Athos characterized OWS as public/private What was his point in doing that?


A blend of many factors if you really need a label for emergency action during a crisis. None of us has to be confused if we stop with politicizing labels and comparing one thing over another when all hands on deck for whatever works best is the goal.Sort of. I wouldn't care to swap short term gains for long term loss of freedom.

Dude, we have many months before enough people are immunized to counter this virus. it's hardly a short term problem. It could well go into most of next year.

In the history of nations, months are most certainly short term.

thank you sunshine

Another intelligent, meaningful addition to the discussion from the resident Aussie. Note: Dripping with sarcasm.

In the history of nations, months are most certainly short term.

In the months before Biden takes over, the death toll will be almost 400,000. Well over a million by the time most people will get vaccinated and that's short term.

Another intelligent, meaningful addition to the discussion from the resident Aussie. Note: Dripping with sarcasm.

You noticed, I must have hit a nerve, I find intelligent doesn't work with you

And yet another intelligent, meaningful addition to the discussion from the resident Aussie. Note: Dripping with sarcasm.

Oh always

Seems between now and we get enough people vaccinated we could do whatever we can to mitigate the spread, sickness, loss of life, and emotional trauma of going through this difficult time. Isn't that a form of charity? I think that as a nation with voluntary compliance to the safety protocols we would all be better off. I get people have rights and hate to be told what to do, but where's the common sense in spreading a deadly virus further and faster?

Seems between now and we get enough people vaccinated we could do whatever we can to mitigate the spread, sickness, loss of life, and emotional trauma of going through this difficult time.What do we need to do that we are not presently doing? In my area it seems, from what I can see, that people are doing pretty well in wearing masks, social distancing, etc. Perhaps this is just a sickness that is very difficult to contain and is showing us that we humans are not nearly as smart or in control as we think we are.

Maybe your area is doing a better job of compliance, but clearly many are not.

That could be. I have no idea what the feds think they will do about it.

That could be. I have no idea what the feds think they will do about it.

The states and locals are doing there own thing in the absence of federal guidance. That seems to be a factor in explaining why we have 50 plans instead of one.

There is abundant fed guidance. It is fed guidance that is responsible for a vaccine being developed in months rather than years. The CDC has issued guidelines that the states are using. If there is anything else to be done, short of shutting down the entire country in every way for weeks, neither I nor you know what it is. And if we truly send everyone home for several weeks, it will completely wreck the economy and likely not even work. So rather than endlessly complaining, why don't you try coming up with an idea?

The truth is, we will limp along through January, but by February the Trump vaccine will become widespread enough to start making a significant difference. Then I'm sure we will all be singing Trump's praises for his effective and rapid response to COVID by developing the only thing that would really make a difference.

Have you been watching the news? States and localities have not been following CDC guidelines fully nor is the dufus pressing them too, and even going against them himself. I doubt I ever sing his praises, but will rejoice his departure when he finally leaves.

I doubt I ever sing his praises, That's the understatement of the year.

If you want to criticize DJT, then that's fine. He is certainly deserving of much of it, but I have asked you more times than I can count for suggestions which we are not currently doing. Drawn a blank so far. I don't see us putting the FBI out to catch Tal or whoever is going about without a mask on. Harris/Biden can mandate masks if they want to. Many, many people will ignore them, but even if they do wear them, all of that seems to not be overwhelmingly effective. So we will wait for the Trump vaccine.

Have you been watching the news of the dem govs and mayors who set tough standards and then violate them themselves? Not repubs, but liberal dems.

Yes I have and have voiced my disgust at the hypocrisy, but that doesn't excuse the repubs from sending the message the virus ain't real and putting profits before people. Masks or any of the protocols are, but strategies to SLOW the spread of sickness and death. Still our own behavior as a nation is what is spreading this virus with little or no resistance so let's not pretend we couldn't do much better, it's just reality we don't want to whatever the reason.

the repubs from sending the message the virus ain't real and putting profits before people.If they were doing that, I would agree with you.


Still our own behavior as a nation is what is spreading this virus with little or no resistance so let's not pretend we couldn't do much better, it's just reality we don't want to whatever the reason.Pretty much the case.

I have a question for capitalists, how should the bullying of Australia by Chinese communists be opposed. Capitalists have aided and abetted the rise of China by investing there and making their industries strong, the outcome of this is they feel they can bully a capitalist oriented nation into submission. They will not retaliate against the stronger capitalist nation of the US but take out their ire on others. Will you join with us to boycott Chinese goods?

I have a question for capitalists, how should the bullying of Australia by Chinese communists be opposed. Capitalists have aided and abetted the rise of China by investing there and making their industries strong, the outcome of this is they feel they can bully a capitalist oriented nation into submission. They will not retaliate against the stronger capitalist nation of the US but take out their ire on others. Will you join with us to boycott Chinese goods?

In general, yes. But you would have to define bullying. When Russia invaded the Crimea, sanctions were placed against Russia. That was the correct thing to do, short of war. I note that Trump, in effect, opposed the sanctions and wanted Russia to be allowed back in the economic group.

In general, yes. But you would have to define bullying. When Russia invaded the Crimea, sanctions were placed against Russia. That was the correct thing to do, short of war. I note that Trump, in effect, opposed the sanctions and wanted Russia to be allowed back in the economic group.

Obviously what has been experienced here has not been reported in the US although other nations such as France stand with us. What they have done over months is hold up shipments of coal and iron ore, impose restrictive tariffs on agricultural products and restrict imports of Australian products, prevent travel by students, actively discourage tourism and student enrolments, publish obnoxious articles and depictions of Australian troops, challenge our sovereign right to regulate investment and prohibit reordering of our exports

This has nothing to do with Russia or any sanctions by Australia on China. It has to do with our stand against Chinese esponage and expansion in the South China Sea

Obviously what has been experienced here has not been reported in the US although other nations such as France stand with us. What they have done over months is hold up shipments of coal and iron ore, impose restrictive tariffs on agricultural products and restrict imports of Australian products, prevent travel by students, actively discourage tourism and student enrolments, publish obnoxious articles and depictions of Australian troops, challenge our sovereign right to regulate investment and prohibit reordering of our exports

This has nothing to do with Russia or any sanctions by Australia on China. It has to do with our stand against Chinese esponage and expansion in the South China Sea

I didn't know about any of that - I'm not aware of everything going on world-wide. But I agree it's very serious and I take it that the Chinese are retaliating for your exposure of their espionage and their expansion in the South Sea.

All I can say at the moment is that the new administration will have to reveal their policies vis-a-vis China. Recently, Biden has taken a hard line but that hasn't always been so. Wait and see.

I didn't know about any of that - I'm not aware of everything going on world-wide. But I agree it's very serious and I take it that the Chinese are retaliating for your exposure of their espionage and their expansion in the South Sea.

All I can say at the moment is that the new administration will have to reveal their policies vis-a-vis China. Recently, Biden has taken a hard line but that hasn't always been so. Wait and see.

There is a compensation, I suppose, I'll have lobster for Christmas dinner, they were wasted on the chinese anyway
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-11/western-rock-lobster-in-supermarkets-due-to-china-trade-woes/12972960

JB came out with the Harris/Biden plan for COVID control yesterday. The three steps were trying to get everyone to wear a mask, getting 100 mil people vaccinated with the Trump vaccine, and reopening schools. How innovative!!!


other nations such as France stand with us.I'm sure that's very reassuring.

JB came out with the Harris/Biden plan for COVID control yesterday. The three steps were trying to get everyone to wear a mask, getting 100 mil people vaccinated with the Trump vaccine, and reopening schools. How innovative!!

Dude, it ain't the plan, it's the application and implementation. A plan is just a piece of paper or idea. Of course even Joe cannot make 100 million doses magically appear no more than the dufus could.

Dude, it ain't the planI guess not, and especially when the plan is, "Come on, man. Let's just keep doing exactly what we've been doing, but I'll just say it was my idea."

We both know what the plan is. The plan is to just blame it all on someone else. It'll be the Obama strategy.

I guess not, and especially when the plan is, "Come on, man. Let's just keep doing exactly what we've been doing, but I'll just say it was my idea."

We both know what the plan is. The plan is to just blame it all on someone else. It'll be the Obama strategy.

You let the dufus do it and get away with it, now you want that to stop because it's so unfair. GROSS hypocrisy!

I did? When?

Figure it out yet?

No, and plainly you haven't either.

Strange, all the semantic gymnastics to make sure the dufus gets credit for polishing the door knobs of a new house I would have thought you knew exactly what I was talking about.

Maybe it's a bit soon to give Joe the credit for anything but whooping the dufus's a$$, but it's kind of early to predict who he'll blame, even though everybody else has already.

Strange, all the semantic gymnastics to make sure the dufus gets credit for polishing the door knobs of a new house I would have thought you knew exactly what I was talking about.A rambling discourse does not amount to an answer.

I would suggest that you get a head start on assembling the excuses for Harris/Biden. You are going to need them. We will not see record low unemployment figures, I don't think.

We will not see record low unemployment figures, I don't think.
If we do, it will certainly be (according to you) because of all the hard work that Trump and his administration did and successes that Biden merely inherited.

If we do, it will certainly be (according to you) because of all the hard work that Trump and his administration did and successes that Biden merely inherited.So you think I will imitate what you guys have consistently done with Trump?

So you think I will imitate what you guys have consistently done with Trump?
Check what happened with employment under W. Then see what happened during the next eight years.

Thank you for verifying my point.

Still, I checked. Unemployment under GW was nearly always under 6% with the exception of ten or so months, and it averaged 5.3%. Unemployment under your hero was OVER 6% for 5 1/2 of his eight years and averaged 7.5%. And that was with a doubling of the national debt. Average under Trump was 4.8%.

So Mr. Obama DOUBLED the national debt, yet had the slowest recovery from a recession in a hundred years.

Sound about right? I am beyond amazed that you would ask that question without first finding the answer. You sure set yourself up. Don't you remember that Google is your friend? 8D

https://historyinpieces.com/research/us-unemployment-rates-president

FactCheck.org says the unemployment figure in 2017 was 4.7%

"...the Obama years, which began in the middle of the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression, and ended with the highest level of household income ever recorded."

"The economy gained a net 11.6 million jobs. The unemployment rate dropped to below the historical norm.

Average weekly earnings for all workers were up 4.2 percent after inflation. The gain was 3.7 percent for just production and nonsupervisory employees.
After-tax corporate profits also set records, as did stock prices. The S&P 500 index rose 166 percent.
The number of people lacking health insurance dropped by 15 million. Premiums rose, but more slowly than before.
The federal debt owed to the public rose 128 percent. Deficits were rising as Obama departed.
Home prices rose 20 percent. But the home ownership rate hit the lowest point in half a century.
Illegal immigration declined: The Border Patrol caught 35 percent fewer people trying to get into the U.S. from Mexico.
Wind and solar power increased 369 percent. Coal production declined 38 percent. Carbon emissions from burning fossil fuel dropped 11 percent.
Production of handguns rose 207 percent, to a record level.
The murder rate dropped to the lowest on record in 2014, then rose and finished at the same rate as when Obama took office."
https://www.factcheck.org/2017/09/obamas-final-numbers/

FactCheck.org says the unemployment figure in 2017 was 4.7%So?


"...the Obama years, which began in the middle of the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression,There is no evidence to support that idea. The economy in 79 was worse by far.


ended with the highest level of household income ever recorded." What do you think of this?



2015
$53,600.00



2016
$56,025.00



2017
$58,849.00



2018
$60,810.00



2019
$63,030.00



2020
$68,400.00






"The economy gained a net 11.6 million jobs. The unemployment rate dropped to below the historical norm.And dropped to historic lows under Trump.




After-tax corporate profits also set records, as did stock prices. The S&P 500 index rose 166 percent.



The Stock Market did do well.

The number of people lacking health insurance dropped by 15 million. Premiums rose, but more slowly than before.Thanks to a doubling of the national debt, and bear in mind that Obama told us that premiums would FALL.

Illegal immigration declined: The Border Patrol caught 35 percent fewer people trying to get into the U.S. from Mexico.Thank you Mr. Trump.

Wind and solar power increased 369 percent. Coal production declined 38 percent. Carbon emissions from burning fossil fuel dropped 11 percent.whoopee

Where was Trump between 2008 and 2016? You were *itching about Obama's poor numbers (that weren't poor). Trump wasn't in the picture yet.

I wasn't complaining about anything. You asked this. "Check what happened with employment under W. Then see what happened during the next eight years." I did as you suggested. I did not say Obama's numbers were poor. You inferred that, correctly I think, from the data I gave you. If you don't want it, then don't ask for it.


Where was Trump between 2008 and 2016?OK. Trump wasn't in the picture when Obama's unemployment average was much higher than Trump's was. I would agree with that.

Where was Trump between 2008 and 2016? You were *itching about Obama's poor numbers (that weren't poor). Trump wasn't in the picture yet.

Trump is a reaction to what went on between 2008 and 2016, Biden is a reaction to what went on between 2016 and 2020. They are both reactionaries

I give the dufus full credit for driving up the voter turnout to record levels. I think a cure for TDS has been found.

The only question is how long is it going to take before we begin to long for the good ole days of the Trump presidency. I give it 12 months.

The only question is how long is it going to take before we begin to long for the good ole days of the Trump presidency. I give it 12 months.

Put your money where your mouth is.

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BB1aZaR6.img?h=582&w=874&m=6&q=60&u=t&o=f&l=f


https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BB1aZcOA.img?h=582&w=874&m=6&q=60&u=t&o=f&l=f

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BB1aZ8ms.img?h=582&w=874&m=6&q=60&u=t&o=f&l=f

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BB1aZcPz.img?h=582&w=874&m=6&q=60&u=t&o=f&l=f

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BB1aZcQi.img?h=582&w=874&m=6&q=60&u=t&o=f&l=f

We'll miss the good old cartoons more!

We'll miss the good old cartoons more!

I think we are in for a whole new round of "dope" cartoons

They just keep coming don't they?

I see your electoral college has made the ouster of Trump just a formality. He has been quiet, subdued, lately. No need for bully and bluster any more

He ain't done yet Clete, he's just waiting for his cult followers to rally behind him, as the rats start jumping ship.

William Barr Is Out as Attorney General (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/william-barr-is-out-as-attorney-general/ar-BB1bVBxA?ocid=msedgntp)

The legislature and Vice President Pence still have to bless the new president elect.

Roles and Responsibilities in the Electoral College Process | National Archives (https://www.archives.gov/electoral-college/roles)


Congress meets in joint session in the House of Representatives on January 6 to count the electoral votes. The Vice President, as President of the Senate, is the presiding officer. Tellers open, present, and record the votes of the States in alphabetical order. The President of the Senate announces the results of the State vote and then calls for any objections. To be recognized, an objection must be submitted in writing and be signed by at least one member of the House and one Senator. If an objection is recognized, the House and Senate withdraw to their respective chambers to consider the merits of any objections, following the process set out in 3 U.S.C. §15 (https://www.archives.gov/electoral-college/provisions.html#15). After all the votes are recorded and counted, the President of the Senate declares which persons, if any, have been elected President and Vice President of the United States.

formalities, don't see Pence rebelling

Mitch is telling repub senators to back away from the latest right wing dufus plot.

McConnell urged Republican senators not to object when Congress ratifies presidential votes (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/mcconnell-urged-republican-senators-not-to-object-when-congress-ratifies-presidential-votes/ar-BB1bX5ta?ocid=msedgntp)

The dufus will be fit to be tied if Pence doesn't do as he's told. He's already threatening other repubs will jail for going against him.

Trump retweets a claim that he's going to lock up Georgia's governor. (slate.com) (https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/12/trump-retweets-claim-put-georgias-governor-in-jail.html)

The dufus will be fit to be tied if Pence doesn't do as he's told. He's already threatening other repubs will jail for going against him.
And if everyone refuses to accommodate him any longer, what can he do as president?

pardon his henchmen

He's making a list and checking it twice?

Yes he wants to know who has been naughty and who has been nice. There are a lot of donkeys who will miss out this year

Yes he wants to know who has been naughty and who has been nice. There are a lot of donkeys who will miss out this year

No doubt many elephants too.

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/elephant-room-black-white-business-cartoon-two-elephants-80766674.jpg

Put your money where your mouth is.That's what I keep asking you liberal dems to do.

That's what I keep asking you liberal dems to do.
We do -- more than you could ever imagine! See Matthew 6:3-4, especially verse 4.

We do -- more than you could ever imagine! See Matthew 6:3-4, especially verse 4.

Bible dude can't hear you! He's too busy telling others what they should do.

So you want me to go show myself to an OT priest?

BibleDude. I like that!!

So you want me to go show myself to an OT priest?
OT priest? What does that have to do with Matthew 6:4?

Whoops. I read it as 8:4. My apologies. So if you believe what you read in 6:4, why have you announced on several occasions what your charitable endeavors have been??

How do you square your interpretation of 6:4 with what is said in 5:16?

Whoops. I read it as 8:4. My apologies. So if you believe what you read in 6:4, why have you announced on several occasions what your charitable endeavors have been??
Whatever I admitted to was to shut you up and stop your hassling.

How do you square your interpretation of 6:4 with what is said in 5:16?
My shining light is not my charitable endeavors.

Whatever I admitted to was to shut you up and stop your hassling.Why is it that with you guys it is always someone else's fault? Can't you handle any responsibility at all? Anytime you want to "shut me up", all you have to do is ask me not to respond to your posts, and I will oblige. I would only ask that you not mention me in your posts, nor comment on posts that I am active in, and that will be fine.


My shining light is not my charitable endeavors.
Maybe not for you, but for the 5:16 verse, the light shining is our good works that men should see. It is very plain. "16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven." Jesus typically didn't take people out behind the house to heal them.

Now I'm not suggesting that we should go around bragging about what we do. You are correct in that. I don't really think you have done that, and I'm very sure I have not. But in a discussion of charity, I don't see a problem with a person using some of their own efforts as examples so long as it doesn't end up being prideful.

Whatever I admitted to was to shut you up and stop your hassling.



You can never get an ego maniac or a bore to shut up, but what hurts them is to ignore them

Why is it that with you guys it is always someone else's fault? Can't you handle any responsibility at all? Anytime you want to "shut me up", all you have to do is ask me not to respond to your posts, and I will oblige. I would only ask that you not mention me in your posts, nor comment on posts that I am active in, and that will be fine.
Stop hassling, participate in honest and fruitful discussions, and all will be Christmassy!

Maybe not for you, but for the 5:16 verse, the light shining is our good works that men should see. It is very plain. "16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven." Jesus typically didn't take people out behind the house to heal them.
Good works don't necessarily include money.

@JL...who else?

I don't think WG has blamed anyone, or expressed anyone else's fault, but rather pushing back against your dismissive personal attacks which is always your MO when YOU want to assign blame and fault in the positions of others. A tactic the dufus uses well to bully people and it's fascinating to watch you channel your inner dufus to promote yourself and and your half baked lunatic ideas, and passive aggressive B....LS....T.

Personally I never want you to shut up because the importance of us knowing your ilk exists is a perfect warning that we cannot be complacent and allow you to run buck wild through this forum unchecked and unchallenged.

participate in honest and fruitful discussions,Honest and fruitful? Hello, Ms. Pot, as can be seen by this. "Good works don't necessarily include money." Yeah. Giving a poor person money certainly could not be called a " good work". Really?


I don't think WG has blamed anyone, or expressed anyone else's fault, but rather pushing back against your dismissive personal attacks which is always your MO when YOU want to assign blame and fault in the positions of others. A tactic the dufus uses well to bully people and it's fascinating to watch you channel your inner dufus to promote yourself and and your half baked lunatic ideas, and passive aggressive B....LS....T.As I have said a million times, if you ever see me do those things, then by all means speak up, but these useless, pointless references accomplish nothing. BTW, is your paragraph a good example of a "dismissive personal attack"??? How about the paragraph below. Is that a dismissive, personal attack? And if it is, and it is, then why is it OK for you to do it, but not OK for me to do it?


Personally I never want you to shut up because the importance of us knowing your ilk exists is a perfect warning that we cannot be complacent and allow you to run buck wild through this forum unchecked and unchallenged.And more ranting. Get specific about something. If you want to challenge me, then find something specific and fire away. You have done it many times in the past, so I know you can, but these useless tirades are tiresome.

Honest and fruitful? Hello, Ms. Pot, as can be seen by this. "Good works don't necessarily include money." Yeah. Giving a poor person money certainly could not be called a " good work". Really?
Yes, really. A good work can be something as simple as smiling at someone who needs a lift at that moment.

I chunk my rocks my way, you chunk yours your way.

Yes, really. A good work can be something as simple as smiling at someone who needs a lift at that moment.If you really want to have an "honest and fruitful" discussion, then this needs to stop. You know full well that we are not talking about smiling at people. The question was the command in Mt. 5:16 to let our good works be seen by men, but to do it in such a way as to bring glory to God and not to us. Can we agree on that?

If you really want to have an "honest and fruitful" discussion, then this needs to stop. You know full well that we are not talking about smiling at people. The question was the command in Mt. 5:16 to let our good works be seen by men, but to do it in such a way as to bring glory to God and not to us. Can we agree on that?
Good works involve only money?

Those with money think it is so, but they are loth to follow the example given by Jesus to the rich young ruler

Good works involve only money?Just about what I expected.

Just about what I expected.
Good works involve only money?

Good works involve only money?

Ask Walmart or Amazon...or JL's favorite charity.

Ask Walmart or Amazon...or JL's favorite charity.

what was jl's favourite charity again, yes it was jl

what was jl's favourite charity again, yes it was jlYou keep forgetting that I seem to be the only here who actually believes in personal charity. You liberal dems love to brag about how you get the gov to use someone else's money to care for poor people so you don't have to get involved yourselves.

as I do . There is no virtue in forced charity and none in promoting it .All the left is doing is saying their intent is to do good with other people's money .

As far as the Gospel goes ,forced giving through taxation does nothing to help the giver become more Christ-like.


As this site shows ;the people in the lower taxed states are much more generous in personal charitable giving .
TaxProf Blog (typepad.com) (https://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2005/11/generosity_inde.html)

And it does no one any good for a nation to be charitable by giving away money that does not exist .

There is no virtue in forced charity and none in promoting it .All the left is doing is saying their intent is to do good with other people's money .

As far as the Gospel goes ,forced giving through taxation does nothing to help the giver become more Christ-like.

And it does no one any good for a nation to be charitable by giving away money that does not exist .Sums it up quite well.

You keep forgetting that I seem to be the only here who actually believes in personal charity. You liberal dems love to brag about how you get the gov to use someone else's money to care for poor people so you don't have to get involved yourselves.
What a mean thing to say! You have no idea how we help others, including the homeless, the hungry, the disabled, orphans, indigenous peoples, worthy charities, plus animals in shelters, especially animals that were abused and neglected.

What a mean thing to say!That's a fair point. I must admit that I thought about you when I said it, and Tom as well. But I will say that you lose a lot of credibility with me with your selective criticism as shown by your non-response to, "what was jl's favourite charity again, yes it was jl." If you want to be more believed, then point out mean comments from your own side, and especially the particularly dumb ones like the one in quotes.

You are arguing about support of the poor from a mean point of view, personal giving has never filled the void, even Jesus recognised that.

Sorry JL, I voted for the guy who will raise our taxes and help some poor people, and if it pisses you off and makes your head explode COOL! 8D

Need cheese to go with that whine? Or would you prefer crackers? Your kids and grandkids can pay for that too. 8O

You are arguing about support of the poor from a mean point of view, Actually, I advocate that people like you should get off their rear ends and help the poor rather than counting on the government to do it with someone else's money. I don't think that's mean. I think you forcing others to do what you seem unwilling to do yourself is mean.


personal giving has never filled the void, even Jesus recognised that.Where did Jesus recognize that? Even more to the point, where did Jesus ever tell us to force other people to give their money to the gov so we could then go about crowing about how compassionate we are?

Actually, I advocate that people like you should get off their rear ends and help the poor rather than counting on the government to do it with someone else's money. I don't think that's mean. I think you forcing others to do what you seem unwilling to do yourself is mean.
I (and many others, even Christians) gladly pay taxes for the general efforts to help others AND to help individuals and charities that I (and many others, even Christians) choose myself.

Where did Jesus recognize that? Even more to the point, where did Jesus ever tell us to force other people to give their money to the gov so we could then go about crowing about how compassionate we are?
Mark 12:17. Jesus didn't mention crowing in that verse but did mention it in Mark 14:72. :-D

I (and many others, even Christians) gladly pay taxes for the general efforts to help othersSo you want your taxes increased? That would make you, I suppose, even MORE glad. Correct? Rather strangely, I only see liberal dems call for increased taxes on others. Do you realize that our government borrowed nearly 10 thousand dollars for every single American, and that was just to fund this year's deficit only? Did you know that? Does that make you uneasy?


AND to help individuals and charities that I (and many others, even Christians) choose myself.I commend you.


Mark 12:17. Jesus didn't mention crowing in that verse but did mention it in Mark 14:72. :-DThank you for referring to a passage in which Jesus did not acknowledge that the government must spend money on charitable causes. I will take that to mean that such a passage does not exist.

So you want your taxes increased? That would make you, I suppose, even MORE glad.
That's what I voted for in November.

Thank you for referring to a passage in which Jesus did not acknowledge that the government must spend money on charitable causes. I will take that to mean that such a passage does not exist.
I was playing with your deductive reasoning processes.

That's what I voted for in November.You're dragging that wild tale out again?


I was playing with your deductive reasoning processes.
I.e., there is not such a passage.

You're dragging that wild tale out again?

In November the Illinois ballot included a choice to continue the state flat tax or move to a graduated tax. I voted for the latter.

How would that have raised your taxes? Wouldn't your tax rate have remained at it's current 4.95%? Isn't it only the wealthy who would have seen a tax increase?

"The amendment’s passage alone wouldn't have change the rates – it only allowed for the graduated tax structure. The second piece of legislation on this issue signed in 2019 set new rates that would have taken effect on Jan. 1 should the amendment have passed, establishing ladder-style brackets with a top rate of 7.99% on single filers earning more than $750,000 and joint filers earning more than $1 million a year.
Under the proposed structure, anyone making less than $250,000 a year would have continued to pay the current rate of 4.95%, with a slight decrease in the rates on their income up to $100,000. Pritzker has often said this means 97% of Illinois residents would have paid the same or less in state income taxes."

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/chicago-politics/illinois-graduated-income-tax-proposal-where-vote-on-amendment-stands/2363905/

How would that have raised your taxes? Wouldn't your tax rate have remained at it's current 4.95%? Isn't it only the wealthy who would have seen a tax increase?
Nope!

"What’s a graduated-rate income tax?
Under a graduated-rate income tax, different levels of wages are taxed at different rates. Proponents say higher-income taxpayers should bear a greater tax burden than lower-income taxpayers. Opponents say a graduated tax hurts business owners and job creators and makes them the target of future tax hikes. Raising taxes across the board under a flat tax is more difficult to do, they say."
https://www.pjstar.com/story/news/coronavirus/2020/08/20/illinois-graduated-rate-income-tax-herersquos-what-you-need-to-know/42798809/

I know what a graduated tax is. The one you voted for would not have raised your taxes. The article I linked made that perfectly clear. It would certainly seem to be yet another example of a liberal dem voting to raise someone else's taxes. Even your own article makes that clear. "Under tax rates approved by the General Assembly, the tax rate would drop to 4.75% for the first $10,000 of income for single and joint filers. Income between $10,000 and $100,000 would be taxed at 4.9%, and the rate would remain at 4.95% for income between $100,000 and $250,000." So it would, in fact, have marginally LOWERED your taxes. Unless, that is, your income exceeds a quarter mil a year, and I rather don't think that is the case based upon statements you have made in the past.

Perhaps you thought it would have, but that was not the case, and at any rate the measure did not get enough votes to pass.

Unless, that is, your income exceeds a quarter mil a year, and I rather don't think that is the case.

Perhaps you thought it would have, but that was not the case, and at any rate the measure did not get enough votes to pass.
You have absolutely no idea of our income, do you.... and I did vote for the graduated tax.

Don’t tax you Don’t tax me, Tax that fellow behind the tree.
Progressives like the gimme .....as long as the takee is someone else.

Progressives like the gimme .....as long as the takee is someone else.

The gimme belongs entirely to the wealthy Republicans. The wealthy never have enough. Witness Trump's tax cut giving enormous sums to the rich and big corporations. The wealthy are compassionate 'tho. The scraps from their tables trickle down to Lazarus the poor beggar.

You have absolutely no idea of our income, do you.... and I did vote for the graduated tax.I know you have said in the past that you live in a modest home on a modest retirement income, and I'm pretty sure a quarter of a million a year does not qualify as "modest". If it does, then we should all be retired librarians in Illinois. I think you voted, as a good liberal dem, to raise taxes on people making over a quarter of a million dollars a year.

BTW, you do realize that you don't have to wait for the state of Illinois to raise your taxes? You can contribute all you want to both your state and federal governments. They will be happy to get the money, and you will be even more "glad" to be paying your taxes!


The gimme belongs entirely to the wealthy Republicans. The wealthy never have enough. Witness Trump's tax cut giving enormous sums to the rich and big corporations. The wealthy are compassionate 'tho. The scraps from their tables trickle down to Lazarus the poor beggar.Right on cue. A great illustration of what we have been talking about. It's the never ending declaration that the wealthy paying 87% of fed income tax and practically all of the inheritance tax is somehow less than them doing their "fair share", and that the feds deciding to take less than they had been taking somehow amounts to the government giving money to the wealthy.

I know you have said in the past that you live in a modest home on a modest retirement income
My online persona.

Right on cue. A great illustration of what we have been talking about. It's the never ending declaration that the wealthy paying 87% of fed income tax and practically all of the inheritance tax is somehow less than them doing their "fair share", and that the feds deciding to take less than they had been taking somehow amounts to the government giving money to the wealthy.

Well the feds need money to give poor states like yours don't they? I don't see you giving back that fed money, or showing any understanding of the wealth of a small group that can afford to be taxed trillions and still be some uber rich MOFO's

They got accountants and lawyers and don't need podunks like you protecting them. GO GET 'EM JOE!

WG, you voted to raise taxes on the wealthy. It's just that simple. It's the way it goes with liberal dems. Now I do commend you because you seem to care about poor people, and do use your own resources, it seems, to help them. You do unless that is also part of your "online persona"?

WG, you voted to raise taxes on the wealthy. It's just that simple.

So did I and 80 million others. So what?

WG, you voted to raise taxes on the wealthy. It's just that simple. It's the way it goes with liberal dems.
What does my being a moneyed registered Republican and voting to raise taxes on the wealthy have to do with the price of tea in China?

What does my being a moneyed registered Republican and voting to raise taxes on the wealthy have to do with the price of tea in China?




So now you are "moneyed"? What happened to "modest income"? At any rate, you're the one who brought it up, so you'll have to be the one who answers that question.

123,000 jobs lost in December, 4110 new deaths Jan. 7th! How's that capitalism working for us? Or is it the capitaLISTS who are failing? Or has OWS run out of gas?

Weekly jobless claims little changed despite signs of slower hiring (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/07/weekly-jobless-claims.html)

Coronavirus updates: People without symptoms make up 59% of virus spread; an American dies every 21 seconds in new daily record (yahoo.com) (https://news.yahoo.com/coronavirus-updates-arizona-deemed-hot-090011066.html)

More Than 17.5 Million Shots Given: Covid-19 Vaccine Tracker (bloomberg.com) (https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/covid-vaccine-tracker-global-distribution/)

you mean how is covid working for you, capitalism is working hard to find a solution because it is profitable to do so, millions, even billions of doses of vaccine, much money to be made. Eventually we will learn to live with it like the common cold, but until then ponder this; covid has replaced the flu and new variants have even replaced the original virus so eventually it will become benign and the crisis will be over

capitalism is working hard to find a solution because it is profitable to do so,You say you ran several businesses. Did you run them to make a profit? If so, and it is so, then how are you any different?

Profit is one thing but I doubt Clete ran shell companies to hide money and launder dirty money or cheated customers and vendors intentionally. That's the difference between honest capitalism and criminal enterprise.

The laws seem inadequate to stop those with bad intentions and no boundaries of good behavior.

JL the companies I ran operated on ethical principles, that is the difference

JL the companies I ran operated on ethical principles, that is the differenceI know. I know. You are an economics genius and all of your high powered companies were paragons of virtue. Everyone else, of course, is a capitalist pig.

These companies achieved something very difficult in a remarkably short period of time. They are doubtless saving hundreds of thousands of lives and getting life back to "sort of normal" for all of us. but you have to find something to be critical about. Sheesh.

I know. I know. You are an economics genius and all of your high powered companies were paragons of virtue. Everyone else, of course, is a capitalist pig.

These companies achieved something very difficult in a remarkably short period of time. They are doubtless saving hundreds of thousands of lives and getting life back to "sort of normal" for all of us. but you have to find something to be critical about. Sheesh.

Capitalism has changed, today it's all about stockholder value, there is no social conscience, so if I'm critical it is because it doesn't have to be that way. Am I an economic genius, no, but neither is Trump, I am able to see the flaws and you see him as peerless.

I actually agree with some of the policies but the means are what I question and it isn't just Trump, some US policies have been disasters both domestically and internationally. Now, my country seems remote but our interest stems from the fact that what happens there seems to flow on here eventually. You are now entering into an era of left wing government, and I am hoping we don't follow you down that path as we seem to in the past

there is no social conscience,I'm sorry, but that's an absurd statement. I think it would be a very safe statement that practically every major American company donates to charity. I know it's a small thing, but the drug rehab facility I work with is practically flooded with donations. And that is not to mention that millions of Americans have jobs, income, and financial lives because of these companies. We have it so good it's ridiculous. God must frown at our complaining.

I visited my granddaughter in Austin. I walked into a Target store that had a sign advertising employment starting at fifteen dollars an hour. A husband/wife could work there and make over sixty thou a year combined. It's amazing. And yet people complain endlessly. That is actually the truly amazing part.


You are now entering into an era of left wing government, and I am hoping we don't follow you down that path as we seem to in the pastWith that I agree completely. Once we lose the ability to borrow/print money, then it is going to become dark rather soon.

Maybe so, but without China Target, like Walmart is bust. We have all settled for cheap but those $15 an hour wages are still a poverty level wage really and there is a limit to such "opportunities. My son lives in an economically depressed area and his wife works in a restaurant, sometimes two, while he does marketing, not much call for it and a good year would be if they brought in $60K. They made more money in the last year from covid relief for a few months but it is still week to week and the lift in property values has done wonders for them as the boomers leave the city

$15 an hour wages are still a poverty level wage really and there is a limit to such "opportunities.It absolutely is not. 60K a year for a married couple does not make a person rich, but you can certainly live at a respectable level with that money, and the pay will increase as you continue on and move up. And as to those limits, when stores put signs on doors advertising their need for help, then you are in a workers market. A person right now, who is willing to work, can easily get a job. Work sixty hours a week and you can get two jobs. It's there is a person wants it.

Must be wonderful to live in a covid paradise on 60k a year, these are difficult times and such "opportunities" are not available everywhere. That level of income may work where you live but here you wouldn't get a bank loan on 60K a year, property prices are too high now and rising as the aged escape the cities and speculators move in.

As you said, that is in Australia. Before I retired, we were living on my principal's salary which wasn't even 80K, so it can be done for sure. Now we have always been careful with our money, and went for our entire married lives with basically no debt other than our house. So 15 an hour is significantly above poverty. And such "opportunities" are all over the place. If you are willing to work 60 hours a week, then you are pulling down nine hundred a week.

I don't mean to push the point too hard, but there are jobs to be had by the dozens in my own area, and we are one of the poorer states in the country.

That $15 dollar/hr wage just started in some places and doesn't even come close to making up for the decades of stagnation and terrible economic hardships poor people have had to deal with. Takes years to climb out of poverty or move up the ladder under the best circumstances for healthy people, but economic downturns, sickness, and death don't help at all, nor do rising prices and the cost of living.

As you said, that is in Australia. Before I retired, we were living on my principal's salary which wasn't even 80K, so it can be done for sure. Now we have always been careful with our money, and went for our entire married lives with basically no debt other than our house. So 15 an hour is significantly above poverty. And such "opportunities" are all over the place. If you are willing to work 60 hours a week, then you are pulling down nine hundred a week.

I don't mean to push the point too hard, but there are jobs to be had by the dozens in my own area, and we are one of the poorer states in the country.

Jl I'm retired and live on less than $40K a year, careful planning and owning my own home allows a good lifestyle, wanting for nothing, but that's me and I'm not the norm. My government makes a lot of it possible as they incentivised self funded retirement. I'm a professional person with years of planning behind me. Dozens of jobs when millions are out of work doesn't cut it, covid has changed the landscape.

Part time is what many find available, not 60 hours but 20

Part time is what many find available, not 60 hours but 20That's not the case here, at least for the present time. A person who is willing to work can get all the hours he/she wants. It's hard to overstate how healthy the Trump economy was. Unemployment was seriously low, and a primary reason it's as high as it is now is because the feds have stupidly extended and increased unemployment benefits in their untiring efforts to buy votes with borrowed money. The silly campaign to raise the minimum wage ignores the fact that very few employers pay 7.65 an hour. Even fast food businesses in our area pay more than that. They have to in order to attract even relatively low quality employees.

Jl, a minimum wage is about exploitation, not about what some employers pay. When I speak about a minimum wage I'm speaking of an adult wage, not an entry level junior wage. In our economy that wage is around $18/hour but it also is what many industries pay day labour and the like. Obviously in an economy short of labour wages will be higher but but you speak with distain about the quality available. People respond to the way they are treated, pay slave wages and you get slave mentality

Jl, a minimum wage is about exploitation, not about what some employers pay. When I speak about a minimum wage I'm speaking of an adult wage, not an entry level junior wage. In our economy that wage is around $18/hour but it also is what many industries pay day labour and the like.If it's "around" 18 an hour, then it is not set. The best way to get more money is to become a better, more highly skilled employee.


you speak with distain about the quality available.That is actually what employers I know tell me. It's a funny thing. I go into Chik Fil A, and the service is outstanding. I go into McDonalds and the service is lousy.


People respond to the way they are treated, pay slave wages and you get slave mentalityAnd the reverse is true. Be a lousy employee and you get paid lousy employee wages. But fifteen bucks an hour is hardly slave wages.

Can't live on it Jl

Jl I'm retired and live on less than $40K a yearSo less than 40K a year is fine for you, but 60K won't make it here??? Well...OK then.

So less than 40K a year is fine for you, but 60K won't make it here??? Well...OK then.

I am one person, living in a rural area and having little expenses. My medical is taken care of and I don't travel much. I give the lie to the modern idea of retirement funding which suggests you need 60% of pre retirement income. I pay no income tax, courtesy of government policy. This is what happens when you take the burden off the low end of the income spectrum and shift to taxation of outgoings rather than income. Many things become possible

Don't really know what else to tell you. 60K here won't buy a couple a mansion on a hilltop, but it is FAR above poverty, and sensible people can do well on that.

$60,000 for a family of 4 or more is not THAT far from poverty. Big difference between singles and households. It's a lot more complicated and complex than just a dollar figure.