SCOTUS decision is a victory for 1st amendment rights to free exercise of religion.
20A87 Roman Catholic Diocese of Brooklyn v. Cuomo (11/25/2020) (supremecourt.gov) (https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/20pdf/20a87_4g15.pdf?fbclid=IwAR2D8cRCx9kyE1bLyurODyl2Lx W7CEgiMeYEcK0MuN1gcctNUQgXpgIWt38)

As with all of the rights enumerated there are no 'absolute ' rights. Yes it is an absolute right to believe .But there is not necessarily an absolute right to act. Certain religious practices have been outlawed. Human sacrifice comes immediately to mind. But so does the decision to outlaw polygamy . There are mandates to get vaccinated that conflict with religious beliefs . SCOTUS in the past has played the balancing ct with the idea that there may be compelling reasons for the state to over rule religious practice. I fall in with those who think that in most cases that the 1st amendment right to free exercise takes precedent . In this case ;and I live in an area where this case comes into play; the public health aspect could outweigh the religious freedom aspect . But in this case clearly the religious freedom argument ,and the disparate treatment argument won the

The majority opinion and the concurrence opinions by Gorsuch and Kavanaugh are based on 1st amendment grounds .

Roberts and concurring dissents by Kagan ,Sotomayor and Breyer are based on the fact that il duce Cuomo had already lifted the severe restrictions .They therefore believe the case should not have been decided by SCOTUS since the point was moot . But Cuomo makes decrees on a whim . The real point is that he had severe restrictions on religious institutions that he did not impose on secular places . He designated places like Walmart as 'essential ' and waved his draconian restrictions on them ? Well why is not religious gathering essential ? Certainly a church or synagogue that can fit 500 -1000 congregants can comply with the covid restrictions that are imposed on grocery stores and restaurants .
The minority punted on the issue because they know the religious institutions were right .

I find the Supreme Court ruling a sad commentary that ignores condition during a health crisis. Part of the uncontrolled nature of this virus is the right wing ignoring it for economic and social considerations (RIGHTS). In essence SCOTUS is saying you have a right to spread sickness and death during a health crisis.

Have at it, but failure to do what it takes to control this virus is the very reason you need more freezer trucks and frontline workers are getting infected...exhausted, and burned out, and infections and death spreading even faster.

You sure showed Cuomo didn't you.

we do not sacrifice rights in a crisis. I mentioned that SCOTUS has to consider the public health impacts . But signaling out religious institutions for disparate treatment where people gather is plain wrong . The minority opinion did not even argue against that fundamental point. If it is unsafe to gather more than 10 people for a religious ceremony then it is equally unsafe to gather more than 10 people at a shopping mall on Black Friday ...... no ? Cuomo the weasel tried to make the case go away by changing the color code in the area at the last minute .

I get it Tom. You righties aren't flexible during this crisis. It's no sacrifice to observe your religion at home and we have the technology to do so and many do. So go ahead and pack 'em in we have plenty of ventilators and masks and hospitals and workers and refrigerator trucks.

And the vaccine is on it's way for whomever survives.

It's no sacrifice to observe your religion at homeSo it's wrong to go to church, but just fine to go to a ballgame, or participate in large crowds engaged in "protesting", or stand with a crowd in a liquor store? SCOTUS correctly decided that the opportunity to gather together to worship is a Constitutionally protected right, whereas there are no such corresponding rights to riot, go to ballgames, or buy liquor.

So it's wrong to go to church, but just fine to go to a ballgame, or participate in large crowds engaged in "protesting", or stand with a crowd in a liquor store? SCOTUS correctly decided that the opportunity to gather together to worship is a Constitutionally protected right, whereas there are no such corresponding rights to riot, go to ballgames, or buy liquor.

Get REAL! No one is even saying that not even Cuomo. He lifted church restrictions. It's up to the institutions to figure out how to SAFELY engage in human activity. I get rights, but is it SAFE? I will point out the laws against rioting, and protesting OUTSIDE, and even schools and restaurants being outside or socially distance.

Are you wingers saying you can't figure out how to attend church safely, or NOT even willing to try? THAT's the problem...YOU!


we do not sacrifice rights in a crisis.

Many are sacrificing their lives for your rights...in a crisis.

Get REAL! No one is even saying that not even Cuomo.Of course he is. Go to a crowded liquor store? Fine. Go to a large protest gathering where thousands are gathered together in close quarters? Fine. Go to a ballgame with thousands of other people? Fine. Go to church? Arrest those people!!


He lifted church restrictions. It's up to the institutions to figure out how to SAFELY engage in human activity. I get rights, but is it SAFE? I will point out the laws against rioting, and protesting OUTSIDE, and even schools and restaurants being outside or socially distance.He lifted church restrictions AFTER it was obvious he was in for a court battle.


Are you wingers saying you can't figure out how to attend church safely, or NOT even willing to try? THAT's the problem...YOU!That was not the question. His church restrictions had basically shut churches down.

He lifted church restrictions.
He saw the writing on the wall and it appears taking him to court is the way to curb his dictatorial .
tendencies


It's up to the institutions to figure out how to SAFELY engage in human activity.
indeed it is . When a Catholic Church can fit 1,000 people ,then 25% means 250 people can safely gather ;which is more than most masses that get celebrated . Not 10 people .


Many are sacrificing their lives for your rights...in a crisis.
Not true . The only spread amongst religious communities has been in the Orthodox Jewish Community ;and they are pretty much a self contained community here , If they get sick or spread it to their community it is on them .
But that was not the issue . The issue was that religious communities were being unconstitutionally singled out for disparate treatment compared to secular establishments . Sorry if you don't like it but religious liberty is Amendment 1 part 1 . That was the first liberty that concerned the people after the adoption of the constitution .

Good argument but when it spreads to hospitals then it's not just a community problem anymore is it? That's about where individual rights end when they impact adversely the rights of others.

That's about where individual rights end when they impact adversely the rights of others.So a group of Christians gathering in a church in a safe and responsible manner somehow adversely impacts your rights?

So a group of Christians gathering in a church in a safe and responsible manner somehow adversely impacts your rights?

Stop twisting my words! What's your problem?

New Mexico showed the largest increase among states for newly confirmed COVID cases this past week followed by Virginia ,Arizona ,and Vermont . What do all these states have in common ? (hint it isn't their large Orthodox Jewish communities .) Yes you are right ;they all voted for Quid .

What do all these states have in common ? (hint it isn't their large Orthodox Jewish communities .) Yes you are right ;they all voted for Quid .
Must be God's judgment raining down on them....

I don't subscribe to such silly simplistic explanations .This is mimicking the 1918 flu . I 've said it before. When herd immunity is achieved through infection or vaccine the pandemic will end . All these petty dictators are not following the science.

Stop twisting my words! What's your problem?

Your words. That's about where individual rights end when they impact adversely the rights of others.


My reply: So a group of Christians gathering in a church in a safe and responsible manner somehow adversely impacts your rights?

That's twisting your words???

delete

New Mexico showed the largest increase among states for newly confirmed COVID cases this past week followed by Virginia ,Arizona ,and Vermont . What do all these states have in common ? (hint it isn't their large Orthodox Jewish communities .) Yes you are right ;they all voted for Quid .

The same trends are present in states that voted for the dufus so what's the point?

His point was that the top four all voted dem.

My only point on this topic is that SCOTUS correctly sided with religious liberty and that the minority in the court did not even address the core issue instead deciding to punt over a technicality . BTW you were worried about the court ? Well John Roberts like many Republican nominees in the past has proven that he lied in the hearings and is not an impartial 'referee ' .Since he is no longer the swing vote ;he has decided to go all in with the activists on the court .

His point was that the top four all voted dem.

10 U.S. States With Most COVID Cases Per 100,000 People in Past 7 Days (newsweek.com) (https://www.newsweek.com/coronavirus-most-cases-per-capita-1539036)


My only point on this topic is that SCOTUS correctly sided with religious liberty and that the minority in the court did not even address the core issue instead deciding to punt over a technicality . BTW you were worried about the court ? Well John Roberts like many Republican nominees in the past has proven that he lied in the hearings and is not an impartial 'referee ' .Since he is no longer the swing vote ;he has decided to go all in with the activists on the court .

Just another tool excluded from the corona mitigation tool box.

Well John Roberts like many Republican nominees in the past has proven that he lied in the hearings and is not an impartial 'referee ' .Since he is no longer the swing vote ;he has decided to go all in with the activists on the court .I'm afraid that is about right.

Cry me a river since it's 5-4 to the right regardless if we follow ideology which keeps SCOTUS as the partisan joke that it is, and has been. I wish Joe would expand the courts just to watch the heads explode on the right. I doubt he does.

That court is only a joke because you think it is politically motivated but for years it was politically motivated and very partisan, but it hasn't found in favour of Trump. The court doesn't make laws it adjudicates on matters referred to it and strikes down laws that are unconstitutional and politically motivated.. what you advocate is a politically motivated court

We're just lucky the dufus lawyers are so incompetent that even judges appointed by the dufus laughed them out of court.

The jokes on HIM! Can't wait until the fool pardons himself!

Can't wait until the fool pardons himself!

no doubt that would be referred to the court

. I wish Joe would expand the courts just to watch the heads explode on the right. I doubt he does. Well for one thing ,he has no authority to do so. Congress decides the size of the court and even if there are any lower courts at all .The constitution only mandates a SCOTUS ...... Article 3 sec 1 (The judicial Power of the United States shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish )

That court is only a joke because you think it is politically motivated but for years it was politically motivated and very partisan, That is because the claim that the court being politicized is correct since the early days of the John Marshall court.


The court doesn't make laws it adjudicates on matters referred to it and strikes down laws that are unconstitutional and politically motivated..

It has effectively made law out of whole cloth more times than I can mention. It has also created rights based on some bizzarro reading of the constitution. example :this is Justice Douglas in Griswold v Connecticut "specific guarantees in the Bill of Rights have penumbras, formed by emanations from those guarantees that help give them life and substance. "

That turn of phrase was the basis for creating the so called right to privacy which in turn morphed into the right to whack babies .

That turn of phrase was the basis for creating the so called right to privacy which in turn morphed into the right to whack babies .

So you are saying a supreme court judge actually said you have the right to whack babies? how much baby whacking goes on over there? obviously too much because the level of brain damage is extraordinary

see definition 3

Definition of whack

1a: to strike with a smart or resounding blowwhack the ball
b: to cut with or as if with a whack : chop

2chiefly British : to get the better of :defeat

3slang : MURDER KILL

So you are saying a supreme court judge actually said you have the right to whack babies? how much baby whacking goes on over there? obviously too much because the level of brain damage is extraordinaryIt is hardly a topic to make light of.

Maybe you righties need more facts as this is what Griswold v Conn. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griswold_v._Connecticut) was about, and this is what Justice Douglas wrote.


"Would we allow the police to search the sacred precincts of marital bedrooms for telltale signs of the use of contraceptives? The very idea is repulsive to the notions of privacy surrounding the marriage relationship."

Yes this right to privacy and practice of birth control by married couples which did expand to all women. Not much different than the rights of white men expanded to the rest of Americans.

I have no right to kill a baby .

No one does by law. Are you against the abortion pill too? Does that mean you also would outlaw the legal abortion procedure at or before 12 weeks in a doctors office?

When is a fetus/zygote/fertilized egg considered a baby? How the heck did we get on this abortion stuff again?

Toms quote about penumbras is actually from Roe/Wade, not from Griswald.

The real question is when are we dealing with a human life. The answer is pretty simple.

God “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul” (Gen. 2:7). Man did not have a soul but he became a soul, and the life-principle was the breath (Hebrew ruah: spirit) of God. As a result, we say when man no longer has breath that he is dead.

I'm not interested in rehashing abortion either . My point was that Justice Douglas created new rights and law out of whole cloth. His language states that rights are implied deep in the hidden meaning of the written words and intents of the authors These rights should be recognized, according to their liking, their interpretation, their personal preferences in order to "fix" some issue with a predetermined desired outcome

God “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul” (Gen. 2:7). Man did not have a soul but he became a soul, and the life-principle was the breath (Hebrew ruah: spirit) of God. As a result, we say when man no longer has breath that he is dead.

What do the Christian anti-abortionists say about this verse from the Bible?

What do the Christian anti-abortionists say about this verse from the Bible?Please, please tell me that you are not trying to make the utterly absurd assertion that babies in the womb are not alive since they are not breathing air. The text you quoted simply says that life originated with God, and was conveyed to man by God breathing into his nostrils, not the breath of air, but the breath of life, and as a result he became a living creature. This of course is said of the first man, being one who spent no time in the womb.

That is what the "Christian anti-abortionist" says about that verse. What does the non-Christian, pro-abortionist say?

I'm not interested in rehashing abortion either . My point was that Justice Douglas created new rights and law out of whole cloth. His language states that rights are implied deep in the hidden meaning of the written words and intents of the authors These rights should be recognized, according to their liking, their interpretation, their personal preferences in order to "fix" some issue with a predetermined desired outcome

I think its more expanding on the basics in order to stay relevant with evolving humans, in order to form a more perfect union which has to be an ongoing process. I think Douglas recognizes this process as inevitable.

It is hardly a topic to make light of.I was not making light of it. Few of my observations are intended to make light of a serious situation and not wishing to associate baby whacking with the abortion debate, what level of child discipline is the norm in a self obcessed society

SCOTUS decision is a victory for 1st amendment rights to free exercise of religion.

When the free exercise of religion threatens the people as in the COVID crisis, then that exercise is not free and should be prohibited.


Why is not religious gathering essential ? Certainly a church or synagogue that can fit 500 -1000 congregants can comply with the covid restrictions that are imposed on grocery stores and restaurants.

Good question. Simple answer. The reason is that the church or synagogue is not essential. Comparing its capacity to the capacity of a grocery store or Walmart's is a false comparison. Food and supplies are essential. A church or synagogue service is not essential. If a church or synagogue were to be used as an overflow hospital with beds and doctors, then it would be essential.

When nine highly educated wise adults cannot see this simple truth and instead get mired in the semantics of constitutional theory and originalism and philosophy, they are diving too deeply. A child can see the correct decision.

When the free exercise of religion threatens the people as in the COVID crisis, then that exercise is not free and should be prohibited.



Good question. Simple answer. The reason is that the church or synagogue is not essential. Comparing its capacity to the capacity of a grocery store or Walmart's is a false comparison. Food and supplies are essential. A church or synagogue service is not essential. If a church or synagogue were to be used as an overflow hospital with beds and doctors, then it would be essential.

When nine highly educated wise adults cannot see this simple truth and instead get mired in the semantics of constitutional theory and originalism and philosophy, they are diving too deeply. A child can see the correct decision.

The whole thing here revolves around entry into a building rather than the practice of a religion. The practice of a religion is not prohibited, a large gathering in a building is, just as it is in any building. It seems the constitution is more an impediment to public health than a help

I was not making light of it. Kind of hard to imagine how you could have meant this in anything even approaching a serious manner. "how much baby whacking goes on over there? obviously too much because the level of brain damage is extraordinary"

The reason is that the church or synagogue is not essential.No. It's merely Constitutionally protected. I would add that I think I could make a good case that places of worship are at least as essential as liquor stores.


When nine highly educated wise adults cannot see this simple truth and instead get mired in the semantics of constitutional theory and originalism and philosophy, they are diving too deeplYeah. We certainly wouldn't want the Supreme Court to get all caught up in that "constitutional theory" stuff.

Kind of hard to imagine how you could have meant this in anything even approaching a serious manner. "how much baby whacking goes on over there? obviously too much because the level of brain damage is extraordinary"

A statement of fact, your society appears to be mad at times, like too many shaken babies

So you really believe that doctors routinely "whack" newborns, that it is what Tom meant, and that it is causing extraordinary levels of brain damage? Well...OK. Don't really know what to say to that other than, "good night".

So you really believe that doctors routinely "whack" newborns, that it is what Tom meant, and that it is causing extraordinary levels of brain damage? Well...OK. Don't really know what to say to that other than, "good night".

well a good night, a good morning and a good afternoon to you too, and the whacks I was referring to are delivered in child raising, not child birthing. The judicial decision on whacking didn't refer just to birthing but a socitial norm

The whole thing here revolves around entry into a building rather than the practice of a religion. The practice of a religion is not prohibited, a large gathering in a building is, just as it is in any building. It seems the constitution is more an impediment to public health than a help

That is a valid point, but the court looked at it from the point of view of the free exercise of religion. In effect, they ruled incorrectly by that reasoning since religion was an incidental factor. The issue, as you say, was prohibiting a gathering of people in an area hard hit by COVID.

Instructive are two previous instances where the court rejected similar cases by churches. The difference this time was Justice Barrett who cast the deciding vote. Barrett is on record as telling law students that a legal career has its primary purpose furthering the "Kingdom of God". Barrett's zealous Catholicism is troubling in a SC justice.

The court majority complicated what was not complicated to begin with. Occam's Razor.

Barrett is on record as telling law students that a legal career has its primary purpose furthering the "Kingdom of God". Barrett's zealous Catholicism is troubling in a SC justice.She's not "on record" as saying that. A journalist stated she said it. At any rate, it would be a perfectly consistent statement for any genuine Christian to make, but she has never stated that her Christian faith would take precedence over the law in the carrying out of her duties as a Supreme Court justice, nor is there any evidence that such a thing has happened in the past in her career as a fed judge.


the whacks I was referring to are delivered in child raising, not child birthing. The judicial decision on whacking didn't refer just to birthing but a socitial normWhat? The judicial decision under discussion was Roe vs. Wade. It had to do with abortion, and nothing to do with some societal norms about raising and disciplining children. But even if that was true, you really believe that some "whacks" to a child's bottom somehow induce severe brain injury???

Whether churches are as essential as liquor stores is a moot point since both can be regulated by local authority for public safety conditions regardless, so maybe they cannot be closed, but no doubt they can be limited, and or fined for those violations of public safety protocols, procedures, policies, and regulation.

I just have to think any church official that would even consider putting his parishioners in harms way would be a public menace.

Whether churches are as essential as liquor stores is a moot point since both can be regulated by local authority for public safety conditions regardless, so maybe they cannot be closed, but no doubt they can be limited, and or fined for those violations of public safety protocols, procedures, policies, and regulation.But they cannot be singled out and treated more strictly. That was at the core of the case. "The Supreme Court majority said the rules “single out houses of worship for especially harsh treatment” by imposing tighter restrictions on them than on, for example, acupuncture facilities and garages.

The immediate effect is likely to be limited. New York officials say all the affected areas have been converted to “yellow zones,” where houses of worship aren’t subject to any additional limits under the Cluster Initiative. Some of the areas had previously been classified as “red zones,” where churches and synagogues are limited to the lesser of 25% of capacity or 10 people."

Now very plainly it is ridiculous to limit a church with a seating capacity of a thousand to only 10 people for a service, but that's what NYC was doing. In the meantime, they did absolutely nothing to break up "protests" of thousands of people.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/supreme-court-blocks-covid-limits-on-new-york-churches-synagogues/ar-BB1bnclq?ocid=uxbndlbing

I'm waiting for a Cowboy's fan to sue for his right to see a game in person, but given the performance of the team that may be a stretch. To your point though, I think churches and liquor stores should be treated equally, and I'm sure that you would agree if we shut down liquor stores or restrict occupancy for safety and health considerations then the churches should be under the same protocols, right?

The whole thing here revolves around entry into a building rather than the practice of a religion. The practice of a religion is not prohibited, a large gathering in a building is, just as it is in any building. It seems the constitution is more an impediment to public health than a help there are also restrictions to outside gatherings .


the whacks I was referring to are delivered in child raising, not child birthing. The judicial decision on whacking didn't refer just to birthing but a socitial and



norm

and I already gave the definition I used in making that statement . That is the last I have to say on the semantics .


Whether churches are as essential as liquor stores is a moot point since both can be regulated by local authority for public safety conditions regardless, so maybe they cannot be closed, but no doubt they can be limited, and or fined for those violations of public safety protocols, procedures, policies, and regulation.

I just have to think any church official that would even consider putting his parishioners in harms way would be a public menace.

AND as I already stated ,the churches in the district could EASILY satisfy the safety requirements that are given to secular places . The court was very clear . There was disparate treatment which made it not only an Article 1 free exercise violation ;but also a 14th amendment equal protection clause violation .

I just can't get that picture of hundreds of people packed in a church with no safety recommendations evident, out of my mind Tom. I find that irresponsible by both the parishioners and clergy leaders. I'm sure other churches are more aware of the dangers of the virus and take appropriate actions and options but it's a big country.

We've know early on that such gatherings are super spreader events. Actual data has also revealed that our response is hardly leading the world as it is but I suppose we have a right to deal with a crisis as we individually see fit. Whether it works or not is becoming quite evident.

I think churches and liquor stores should be treated equally, and I'm sure that you would agree if we shut down liquor stores or restrict occupancy for safety and health considerations then the churches should be under the same protocols, right?If you can show me a Constitutionally protected right to enter a liquor store, then I will agree with you.


I just can't get that picture of hundreds of people packed in a church with no safety recommendations evident,I don't think that is the result of the decision. My understanding is that the churches will be limited to 25% capacity. Tom might be able to enlighten us on that.

The church I go to has seats marked that can be used . Masks are required ;and temperatures taken before entry . The rest is common courtesy amongst parishioners . It is as simple as that . If you have a picture of any church like the crowds that were at the mall on Black Friday you are sadly mistaken. I suggest you attend one some time .

No thanks, my devices works fine. For the record it can't be easy rallying against an invisible opportunistic killer. Some manage it better than others.

yes a thousand seat church can keep within guidelines of 25% and still have 250 in attendance ......which frankly and unfortunately is far more than required for most masses . I can't speak to the synagogues .But if you limit to 10 you are effectively shutting them down. Now I am only speaking of what
I was told by a Jewish friend... There has to be a quorum of 10 men for a service to take place(minyan) . If lets say the 10 person max requirement is in place then only men could attend .
Clete and others who would impose their values on Christians and Jews by saying where and how someone else can and should worship are being arrogant . Maybe for Clete the televangelist on Sunday morning satisfies his sense of religious worship . But for most people that attend services ;it is the parish ,the community ,the congregation that is as important to them as the service itself . I have watched Catholic services on television . They do not give to me the sense of fulfilment that being at the service ;receiving communion does .

But for most people that attend services ;it is the parish ,the community ,the congregation that is as important to them as the service itself .Absolutely true.

I won't fault anyone for being afraid of sickness and death or what they do about it. People tend to have intense feelings and strong reactions for darn near anything anyway.

I have watched Catholic services on television . They do not give to me the sense of fulfilment that being at the service ;receiving communion does .

Here is your Pope - "Pope Francis succored Catholics around the world by shifting to an online Mass (https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/news/2020-03/pope-francis-daily-mass-casa-santa-marta-coronavirus.html) in response to the quarantine. His recent New York Times op-ed (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/26/opinion/pope-francis-covid.html?referringSource=articleShare) eloquently makes the point that the common good takes precedence over simplistic appeals to "personal freedom" in protests against justified public health measures."

Does your communion fulfill you so much that you will put your neighbor in danger?

The court proved the dangers of scientifically illiterate judges overturning government decisions that were based on scientific evidence.


"But JUSTICE GORSUCH does not even try to square his examples with the conditions medical experts tell us facilitate the spread of COVID-19: large groups of people gathering, speaking, and singing in close proximity indoors for extended periods of time ... Unlike religious services, which 'have every one of th(ose) risk factors,' ... bike repair shops and liquor stores generally do not feature customers gathering inside to sing and speak together for an hour or more at a time. ('Epidemiologists and physicians generally agree that religious services are among the riskiest activities').


Justices of this Court play a deadly game in second guessing the expert judgment of health officials about the environments in which a contagious virus, now infecting a million Americans each week, spreads most easily.

If the churches cared so much for their parishioners, they would remain closed.

.
Clete and others who would impose their values on Christians and Jews by saying where and how someone else can and should worship are being arrogant . Maybe for Clete the televangelist on Sunday morning satisfies his sense of religious worship . But for most people that attend services ;it is the parish ,the community ,the congregation that is as important to them as the service itself . .

I don't seek to impose my values on anyone, but common sense should prevail. It is not necessary to attend every week to maintain fellowship. I have found that since CV19 struck services have changed and are diminished and the televangelist a stopgap that it has always been. My church has been able to comply with capacity limitations because common sense prevails

It is not necessary to attend every week to maintain fellowship. I have found that since CV19 struck services have changed and are diminished and the televangelist a stopgap that it has always been. My church has been able to comply with capacity limitations because common sense prevails good for you . That is between you and God . I am arguing you can have religious services and common sense . It is the Guv's dictates that are unreasonable and unconstitutional

Athos don't even go to that pretender socialist . The schism is right around the corner . And yes Communion is a critical component of the Catholic faith . It is the basis of the new covenant .Jesus sacrifice repaired the rift between God and humans that Adam created ;born of sin from birth to death. Through Jesus sacrifice we are saved and forgiven . He died that we may may have eternal life (Romans 6:23)

Athos don't even go to that pretender socialist . The schism is right around the corner . And yes Communion is a critical component of the Catholic faith . It is the basis of the new covenant .Jesus sacrifice repaired the rift between God and humans that Adam created ;born of sin from birth to death. Through Jesus sacrifice we are saved and forgiven . He died that we may may have eternal life (Romans 6:23)

Bias has nothing to do with adjustments that are needed when sickness and death is trending upward and the options are few and distasteful.

Athos don't even go to that pretender socialist . The schism is right around the corner . And yes Communion is a critical component of the Catholic faith . It is the basis of the new covenant .Jesus sacrifice repaired the rift between God and humans that Adam created ;born of sin from birth to death. Through Jesus sacrifice we are saved and forgiven . He died that we may may have eternal life (Romans 6:23)it is not church attendance that secures salvation but confession of faith in Jesus, communion is something Jesus told us to do at every meal, not just in a church service. Jesus also told us to give proper reference to those who govern us, the separation of church and and state is a convenience, an artificial construct, not some sort of barrier and exists to ensure a state sanctioned religion cannot be imposed, it does not legislate against common sense

I for one don't put much faith in the options that il duce gives us . This is the guy who is responsible for thousands of deaths due to him dictates. The 4 states with the highest covid death rates per capita are right here in this region of the country . And all of them had a callous disregard for the lives lost due to their policies.
• U.S. COVID-19 death rate by state | Statista (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109011/coronavirus-covid19-death-rates-us-by-state/)
Now il duce is self proclaiming the greqt job he did .
Gov. Cuomo’s New Book About Managing COVID-19 Hits Stores (ny1.com) (https://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2020/10/14/governor-cuomo-s-new-book-about-managing-covid-19-pandemic-hits-stores)

Where does he get off ? He knows he is wrong because it took no time at all from when he learned SCOTUS was coming down with the ruling that he tried to make it moot by reclassifying the area .

I applaud the Catholics in NYC for not putting up with his bull manure . While they shut down public schools for no real reason ;the Catholic schools remained open and it had NO impact on the infection rate.

The SCOTUS decision was clear ..... The decision said that said the restrictions single out houses of worship for especially harsh treatment. State action had limited attendance for religious worshippers while other businesses in state designated red zones could remain open without capacity limits.

So tell me why it wasn't bias on the state's part to have disparate treatment against religious institutions ?

Athos don't even go to that pretender socialist.

You mean your Pope? Wow! Funny you should use the word "socialist" since when you were asked to list the "socialistic" programs you oppose in the US, you could not name even a single one!


The schism is right around the corner . And yes Communion is a critical component of the Catholic faith . It is the basis of the new covenant .Jesus sacrifice repaired the rift between God and humans that Adam created ;born of sin from birth to death. Through Jesus sacrifice we are saved and forgiven . He died that we may may have eternal life (Romans 6:23)

Calm down, Tomder. The issue here is the Supreme Court, not your 15th century Council of Trent. Go to the Christianity page if you want to spout your Catholicism. Avoidance of the issue will get you nowhere. You must have gotten that tactic from Mad King Donald.

Clete it is not up to you to define Catholic faith . The Eucharist is consecrated by a priest during the ceremony . It is not the same as eating bread and drinking wine at dinner . In our view there is a transubstantiation that takes place when a priest consecrates the ceremony .

And this has nothing to do with state religion or the so called 'separation' of church and state . This is all contained in the free exercise clause .

Clete it is not up to you to define Catholic faith . The Eucharist is consecrated by a priest during the ceremony . It is not the same as eating bread and drinking wine at dinner . In our view there is a transubstantiation that takes place when a priest consecrates the ceremony .

And this has nothing to do with state religion or the so called 'separation' of church and state . This is all contained in the free exercise clause .

I know what your view is Tom I was raised a catholic but I also read the scriptures for myself and have decided that I will not take a narrow view of what they say in this regard because I follow Jesus not the catholic church. My christianity can exist without benefit of clergy if it has to

Hey, you Catholics!!!

How come only Catholics are "lapsed"? I never hear of a lapsed Presbyterian, or a lapsed Jew, or a lapsed Methodist. Only Catholics get "lapsed"!

And while I'm at it, there's "devout Catholics". I never hear of devout Lutherans or devout Buddhists or devout devil-worshipers. Only Catholics get "devout".

Ok, back to SCOTUS.

Hey, you Catholics!!!

How come only Catholics are "lapsed"? I never hear of a lapsed Presbyterian, or a lapsed Jew, or a lapsed Methodist. Only Catholics get "lapsed"!

And while I'm at it, there's "devout Catholics". I never hear of devout Lutherans or devout Buddhists or devout devil-worshipers. Only Catholics get "devout".

Ok, back to SCOTUS.

Obviously you have nothing better to do than rabble rouse

Obviously you have nothing better to do than rabble rouse

Obviously, you have no sense of humor.

No I have a good sense of humour, you didn't use the humour font

And while I'm at it, there's "devout Catholics". I never hear of devout Lutherans or devout Buddhists or devout devil-worshipers.
Hey, there are lots of devout Lutherans!!! Lapsed ones are called "fallen-away" (among other things....)

freedom to exercise our beliefs is the issue . Clete says we do not need to congregate to express our faith . I say it up to us; not up to you or il duce to decide that for us .;especially when there is so obviously a double standard in favor of secular gathering .

freedom to exercise our beliefs is the issue . Clete says we do not need to congregate to express our faith .
I agree with 'Clete. Lutheran pastors in the US and Canada are using the magic that is the Internet to put together church-going events. YouTube, other videos, Zoom, and other visuals/audios and virtual gatherings have become good-enough media for worship services. Holy Communion can be a drive-thru or even a first-pick-up-the-consecrated-elements-at-the-church-office and then return home to participate in a Zoom communion service.

God blessed us with brains and creativity. Let's use them!

Church over the internet cannot possibly replace the interaction of brotherhood that should occur in church. It's like suggesting I can do my annual physical over the internet.

Church over the internet cannot possibly replace the interaction of brotherhood that should occur in church. It's like suggesting I can do my annual physical over the internet.
But during this pandemic, it's better to be safe than sick or dead. And it won't be forever, just a temporary detour in our worship lives, featuring new, exciting challenges. Yes, medical and psychological/counseling services have also gone virtual.

Church over the internet cannot possibly replace the interaction of brotherhood that should occur in church. It's like suggesting I can do my annual physical over the internet.

Church in the early centuries was in small intermate gatherings out of necessity what is wrong with returning to this tradition

freedom to exercise our beliefs is the issue . Clete says we do not need to congregate to express our faith . I say it up to us; not up to you or il duce to decide that for us .;especially when there is so obviously a double standard in favor of secular gathering .

Tom, you're so off base here, I'm shocked. I may disagree with you on many issues, but I do think you have a rational mindset.

WG has given rational alternatives, and 'clete has keyed on the main issue - gathering unnecessarily at a time of crisis.

There's no double standard, and no issue of freedom to exercise religion. You do not have a right to endanger your neighbor.

Why argue these radical interpretations of "freedom" when it is just the spirit of rebellion exercising once again

But during this pandemic, it's better to be safe than sick or dead. And it won't be forever, just a temporary detour in our worship lives, featuring new, exciting challenges. Yes, medical and psychological/counseling services have also gone virtual.If you want to make that argument, then that's fine, but the government cannot close churches and open liquor stores. It's ridiculous. And when you have a "virtual" annual physical, then let us know about that.


Church in the early centuries was in small intermate gatherings out of necessity what is wrong with returning to this traditionThey certainly had meetings MUCH larger that ten people.

SCOTUS and I disagree and I dispute unambiguously your premise that it is putting anyone else in danger . Show me the evidence that even one cluster came from a Catholic gathering. Yes there was a spike in Orthodox Communities that affected only those communities. And those came from outdoor events . The Orthodox do not comply with the rest of the guidelines like masking . AGAIN churches could easily comply as well with existing guidelines given to secular activities. What il duce tried to do was apply unequal treatment under the law ;and SCOTUS called him out on that .

While your congregation complies with the mitigation guidelines and another did not, doesn't the SCOTUS ruling also open the door for the non/less compliant churches to keep doing what their doing, or not doing without checks? We both know you could be doing it correctly and looking good on Monday and have an uptick in cases by Friday, so I assume you are more than willing to adjust as needed in that case.

I'm really done debating this . I note that Chief Justice Roberts who wrote the main dissent ;nor any of the other dissents even mention the objections y'all raise . Their only bone of contention was that there was no need for SCOTUS to hear the case because il duce had tried to weasel out of it .

I'll make a prediction now . For most of the year we have been ruled by the dictates of 50 governors. Many of them have taken on the role of petty dictators .
Just yesterday il duce sent in 40 deputy sheriffs dressed up in police Halloween costumes ,to arrest a bar owner who was desperately trying to keep his business open and paying his employees . NYC they don't arrest anyone ! They give a bench warrant to muggers . But a bar owner got frog marched . This type of tyranny is happening all over the country .

None of their dictates has changed anything . States with strict and laxed laws alike have cases spiking . Monday il duce said he is preparing to shut the state down again ....his Christmas gift to the state . The only thing that has caused that mofo any pause is the threat of court action . Clearly that is the only thing that he fears . And why should he fear anything else ? He has been a disaster presiding over one of the states with the highest mortality rates ..... and he got an Emmy Award for his conceit.
As long as Governors exceed their constitutional authority the courts will slap their a$S down .

Nice rant against your locals and perceptions but my question was, "We both know you could be doing it correctly and looking good on Monday and have an uptick in cases by Friday, so I assume you are more than willing to adjust needed in that case.".

I mean fact is if you're saying do nothing because nothing helps as we spike again to 2500 deaths a day and hospitals full of really sick people everywhere, some action should be taken. I get the frustration and fatigue after nearly a year of this crap and wonder if Joe will do better, but we haven't done much good so far, unless you count airing our politics at each other...which hasn't done much either.

My offer to trade governors still holds.

some action should be taken.What are you proposing?

I think it's like being in the middle of a hurricane, and then someone says, "We really ought to do something." Well, good luck with that. I'm sure that masks, handwashing, social distancing, and the like does some good. Travel restrictions no doubt help some, but it all just serves to slow things down a little. That's it. If HC had been elected and was the pres now, there is no reason to believe we would be any better off than we are, but you can be sure she would slowly be destroying the economy. The ONLY reason we see all of this concern is because of one word...Trump. If HC was pres, you would be all about telling us how this pandemic must run its course, and how grateful we should be to have a vaccine about to be let loose.

Politics. Stinkin politics. That's all this is.

Cut the winger talk! The dufus tried the Wilson approach with the same results and I doubt HC would have done what the dufus or Wilson did which was nothing! Now as then we have to get as many people through this as possible until the vaccine is in full scale use. This ain't a hurricane where you have no option but run or ride it out.

Only in winger logic can you have a healthy economy as the population steadily grows unhealthy. That's why the leader of the loony right got booted. He refused to follow the data and act accordingly. That's not politics. That's lunacy.

As is often the case, you guffaw, blander, and bluster, but never answer the question. What are you proposing we do other than what is presently being done?

The only thing you can remember is being blasted since we've been discussing this all year darn near. We went down hill the minute the dufus said the virus would be gone by Easter and we should reopen everything.

And still, we have no idea what action you suggest we take that is not already being done. You're a liberal democrat, aren't you?

Here is what your genius hero is proposing. See if you notice the same two, vitally important missing elements that I did.




A decisive public health response that ensures the wide availability of free testing; the elimination of all cost barriers to preventive care and treatment for COVID-19; the development of a vaccine; and the full deployment and operation of necessary supplies, personnel, and facilities.
A decisive economic response that starts with emergency paid leave for all those affected by the outbreak and gives all necessary help to workers, families, and small businesses that are hit hard by this crisis. Make no mistake: this will require an immediate set of ambitious and progressive economic measures, and further decisive action to address the larger macro-economic shock from this outbreak.

Biden believes we must spend whatever it takes, without delay, to meet public health needs and deal with the mounting economic consequences.

https://joebiden.com/covid-plan/?fbclid=IwAR2aArGKCbYr_id7PdpmKmX2WAZPWKw2pShB3Gbg _5oQVYE9sFOSMp7P-Xg

You should explain your own point yourself. While you're at it, respond to my initial premise "We went down hill the minute the dufus said the virus would be gone by Easter and we should reopen everything.", of which I can add more failures and incompetence the least of which being despite full knowledge of a fall resurgence of the virus, the dufus is focused on conspiracy theories and overturning election results, illegally, and unsubstantiated and while sickness and death reach new heights he engages in chaos and obstruction.

2,770 deaths just yesterday and you start in on Biden who hasn't even been sworn in yet?

like Quid and the emperor were so stellar when dealing with H1N1

Ron Klain, who was Quid's chief of staff at the time sais, “It is purely a fortuity that this isn’t one of the great mass casualty events in American history” “It had nothing to do with us doing anything right. It just had to do with luck. If anyone thinks that this can’t happen again, they don’t have to go back to 1918, they just have to go back to 2009, 2010 and imagine a virus with a different lethality, and you can just do the math on that.”


H1N1 infected 60 million Americans .It just wasn't as lethal as previous swine flu events like 1918 .

One of the big differences was that Bush had supplied the emergency stockpile . The emperor and Quid depleted and did not restock . If H1N1 had been as lethal as covid ,we would've seen 2 million Americans dead .


But no one knew it at the time . Did the emperor and Quid act decisive ? Except for emptying the strategic supplies ;no . Did they close the border even as they knew the origin was in Mexico ? No . Did they close schools even though it was kids that were the highest risk of death ? No . Were there lock downs ? No. The emperor got away with saying he would try to control the impact of the virus ... not control the virus .

Vaccine ..... it is easier to create a flu vaccine than a new strain of covid . The emperor promised 100 million doses by fall in anticipation of a 2nd wave . Only 11 million were produced . By that time 22 million Americans had been infected .
[America would've been better off in just acknowledging(as Democrats once did ) that there is only so much a government can do to control a germ.

Quid lucks out . He comes in at the tail end of a pandemic; when a number of vaccines will be coming on the market and the distribution system will have been set up by a man who's business before he became President was to manage the distribution chain of a number of large projects at the same time .
But Quid will get the credit much like the emperor got a Peace Prize nomination 11 days after he was inaugurated (he made a couple of hate America speeches overseas which secured his selection) .

You should explain your own point yourself. While you're at it, respond to my initial premise "We went down hill the minute the dufus said the virus would be gone by Easter and we should reopen everything.", of which I can add more failures and incompetence the least of which being despite full knowledge of a fall resurgence of the virus, the dufus is focused on conspiracy theories and overturning election results, illegally, and unsubstantiated and while sickness and death reach new heights he engages in chaos and obstruction.Well, I'll give this. At least you are consistent. When asked the very simple question of what you would suggest we do that is not already being done, you have twice now passed on giving an answer, and instead you have resorted to your usual fall-back position of, "I hate D. Trump!"

I think Trump is certainly open to criticism of how he managed the virus in the spring, but since then we have tested far more people than any other nation, and we are presently rolling out a vaccine and doing so before just about anyone else other than, as far as I know, the Brits. So since you are so quick to criticize D.J.T., I'm sure that in a sense of true fairness you will credit him for those two accomplishments. Right?? And as well you will notice, I'm sure, the very positive jobs data for November which came out a good bit better than expected.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/06/economy/november-jobs-report/index.html

In the meantime, our pres elect is rolling out a plan which promises goodies to everyone with no price tag attached. There is no price tag because of the very simple reason that there is no intention of paying for any of it. We'll just borrow a few tril more, and keep on trucking to the edge of the cliff.

But Quid will get the credit much like the emperor got a Peace Prize nomination 11 days after he was inaugurated (he made a couple of hate America speeches overseas which secured his selection) .Very true. Trump did more to secure peace than Obama ever thought about doing.

Meanwhile, it appears that the famous porn author, Stacey Abrams, a person that WG would certainly characterize as "fat", has sponsored one of the groups accused of voter fraud in Georgia.

"The group, The New Georgia Project, was founded by former Georgia gubernatorial candidate Stacey Abrams to help register new voters. Ultimately, the 2014 investigation found no wrongdoing by the group, but did cite 14 people for forging 53 voter applications. All those cited were working as independent contractors, according to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution.

On Wednesday, Raffensperger announced an investigation into several progressive organizations he alleged “sought to register ineligible, out-of-state, or deceased voters” for the Jan. 5 Senate runoff elections (https://www.foxnews.com/category/politics/2020-senate-races). Among those named are Vote Forward, The New Georgia Project, Operation Voter Registration GA and America Votes."

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/georgia-election-investigation-groups-what-we-know

JL, WG LOVES Stacy Abrams!!!!

You love fat, porn authors??? I'm surprised.

You love fat, porn authors??? I'm surprised.
You've just given me a new author! Thank you!!!

Oops, I've already discovered her. I have a couple of her books on my Kindle, but haven't read them yet. Now I know what I'll be doing this weekend. And it's soft porn, not the stuff you used to read in bed -- with your flashlight under the covers.

I guess it's your genre. We KNOW you read porn because you just admitted to it, and it would be a strange thing to testify to on a message board, but I guess that's how liberal dems do things? Sorry to disappoint you, but I did not. Now that was largely because I had no access to it, and for that I am eternally grateful. But I'm just glad to read that you now admit it is porn. A few months ago you tried to suggest it was not, perhaps believing it ranked up there with Shakespeare?

One thing I believe we can say for sure. If DJT had written it, you would call it porn with a capital P, but since you don't despise SA, then it is "soft" porn. Is it "soft" porn only when liberal dems write it? Is that how you determine the difference?

I guess it's your genre. We KNOW you read porn because you just admitted to it, and it would be a strange thing to testify to on a message board, but I guess that's how liberal dems do things?
I'm not a liberal Dem.

But I'm just glad to read that you now admit it is porn. A few months ago you tried to suggest it was not, perhaps believing it ranked up there with Shakespeare?
Apparently, you've never read soft porn -- or you did and yawned. It ain't stimulating and visual, is usually emotional. Many romance novelists incorporate soft porn in their stories.

One thing I believe we can say for sure. If DJT had written it, you would call it porn with a capital P
Donnie couldn't write his way out of a paper bag. That's why his daddy had to pay his way through school.

Apparently, you've never read soft porn -- or you did and yawned. It ain't stimulating and visual, is usually emotional. Many romance novelists incorporate soft porn in their stories.Sure it is. If anyone's interested, here are some samples of SA's "literary" efforts. Practically everyone, I imagine, regard graphic descriptions of people having sex to be porn, unless a person is a committed liberal democrat apologist.

https://thefederalist.com/2018/11/02/5-excerpts-from-stacey-abramss-hilarious-romance-novels/

And how many pages out of the total pages does her soft porn take up in one of her romance novels?

You forbid me and others to read soft porn in romance novels? No sex. The bedroom door gets closed when it's time for sex, and the reader is left alone in the hallway.

Check out romances by Elizabeth St. Michel. She and I both grew up in a tiny German farming community in western NY.
https://elizabethstmichel.com

And how many pages out of the total pages does her soft porn take up in one of her romance novels?First you called it soft porn. Now you call it "romance". Hmmm.


You forbid me and others to read soft porn in romance novels? No sex. The door gets closed when it's time for sex.I have not forbidden you or anyone else to do anything. I have simply pointed out that you read it. In fact, you pointed that out yourself.


Check out romances by Elizabeth St. Michel. She and I both grew up in a tiny German farming community in western NY.I have no intention to read porn, soft or otherwise.

Look, read what you want. It's none of my business. In fact, you are the one who seemed to be bragging about reading "soft porn" and thus brought the subject up of what you read. One way or the other, you are free to do what you want, but if you start this nonsense about wanting Trump out because of his many foolish sexual remarks, I'm going to point out every time your support of a porn author who would seem to be involved in voter fraud. The pot should not call the kettle black.

One way or the other, you are free to do what you want
Then stop hassling me.

but if you start this nonsense about wanting Trump out because of his many foolish sexual remarks, I'm going to point out every time your support of a porn author who would seem to be involved in voter fraud. The pot should not call the kettle black.
I have absolutely NO idea what you're talking about.

Is the dufus "grab 'em by the p****y" porn talk, or is he the pot or the kettle, even if he ain't black? Could he be a liberal democrat? Or do you accept the dufus crap because he gives YOU something in return?

Is the dufus "grab 'em by the p****y" porn talk, or is he the pot or the kettle, even if he ain't black? Could he be a liberal democrat? Or do you accept the dufus crap because he gives YOU something in return?And there it is. If Trump makes a vulgar comment, then it must be hashed and rehashed endlessly. If Biden is very believingly accused of sexual assault, that gets swept under the rug. So it all still comes down to politics.


Then stop hassling me.
I haven't hassled you, WG. You have bragged about reading what you said is porn. Perhaps you are hassling yourself?

And there it is. If Trump makes a vulgar comment, then it must be hashed and rehashed endlessly. If Biden is very believingly accused of sexual assault, that gets swept under the rug. So it all still comes down to politics.
Trump has made numerous vulgar comments and carried on a number of lewd activities, all of which he's publicly bragged about.

I haven't hassled you, WG. You have bragged about reading what you said is porn. Perhaps you are hassling yourself?
I bragged about it??? I have explained to you the difference between porn and soft porn. You are not a comprehensive reader

I bragged about it??? I have explained to you the difference between porn and soft porn. You are not a comprehensive reader.

Yeah. Here's your bragging. "You've just given me a new author! Thank you!!!

Oops, I've already discovered her. I have a couple of her books on my Kindle, but haven't read them yet. Now I know what I'll be doing this weekend. And it's soft porn..."

Basically, if you read it, then you seem to believe it surely must be some form of porn called "soft porn". Isn't that kind of like saying a person only engages in "soft racism", or he/she only engages in "soft sexual assault"? I don't like exposing myself to those thoughts and mental images, so I avoid it. But you can read what you like. You told everyone you read porn (soft porn) and now you seem sensitive about. I don't want to concern myself with it since it is really your business and not mine. Let's just drop it.

Let's just drop it.
You said it was porn. I corrected you and explained the difference between porn and soft porn. You refuse to see the difference. Playmate magazine is porn. X-rated movies usually include porn. Sorry you don't know what porn is.

And there it is. If Trump makes a vulgar comment, then it must be hashed and rehashed endlessly. If Biden is very believingly accused of sexual assault, that gets swept under the rug. So it all still comes down to politics.

Yep politics and COURT CASES!

List of Trump's accusers and their allegations of sexual misconduct - ABC News (go.com) (https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/list-trumps-accusers-allegations-sexual-misconduct/story?id=51956410)

Credible EVIDENCE before a judge doesn't get swept under a rug. What do you think the dufus is still raising money for?

Trump’s ‘Save America’ PAC Could Pay For Big Macs, Hush Money … Pretty Much Anything (yahoo.com) (https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/trump-slush-fund-220013943.html)

PS

Sorry haven't finished reviewing the civil case against the dufus family for the inauguration...! (https://news.search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AwrDQry6r8lfjUAAeAUPxQt.;_ylu=Y29sbwNi ZjEEcG9zAzEEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Nj?p=trump+inaugeration+ lawsuit&fr=yhs-iba-syn&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Aw%2Cm%3Anewsdd_sna_t%2Cct%3Avm-vmonly&hspart=iba&hsimp=yhs-syn)

You refuse to see the difference. Playmate magazine is porn. X-rated movies usually include porn. Sorry you don't know what porn is.Since you are the one who reads it, then I suppose you think you get to set the definitions. Sorry. I won't fall for that one. It's like allowing a white supremacist to decide what soft racism is.

But for the third time, do as you please. If you don't want everyone to know, then don't announce it on a message board.

Hey, Tal. Don't forget about your hero, the pres elect.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/8-women-have-accused-joe-biden-of-sexual-misconduct-inappropriate-touching

Since you are the one who reads it, then I suppose you think you get to set the definitions. Sorry. I won't fall for that one. It's like allowing a white supremacist to decide what soft racism is.
You're still sooooo confused!

I also read westerns, fantasies, general fiction, thrillers, mysteries, and YA novels. Btw, the definitions of porn and soft porn are google-able.

I also read westerns, fantasies, general fiction, thrillers, mysteries, and YA novels. Btw, the definitions of porn and soft porn are google-able.Soft porn is still porn and is based on vivid descriptions of sex. Your definition is basically that if you read it, and if it's written by a liberal dem, then it must be OK. Well, I've read samples of SA's work, and yeah, it's porn. I suppose you get a kick out of it, or whatever, but as for what you read, for the fourth time, it's strictly your business and I see no reason why we need to discuss it here other than you continue to bring it up in a vain attempt to make your reading of porn, and your support of a porn author, to seem OK.

BTW, I understand the difference between porn and soft porn. I just don't find it to be meaningful since they are both based on alluring descriptions of sex. It's like saying there is a difference between being drunk versus only soft drunk. And what SA writes is pretty detailed and descriptive in any case, or at least the samples I have looked at certainly are. I would not be able to read a book like that and have any sense that God found my doing so to be pleasing in His sight.

Do you think your God is pleased with your support of a nasty talking fellow who lears at naked young girls?

I don't support Biden. You know, the guy accused by eight women of sexual assault?

Look, you and I both know that we had two choices in the last two elections, and those were bad and mediocre. So I went with the guy who opposed abortion and promised to appoint fed judges who valued the Constitution. So yes, I think it pleases God immensely to stand against the murder of innocent, unborn human beings. Your playing the part of Mr. Pot to my Mr. Kettle gets tiresome.

hmmm SCOTUS and porn . In the words of Justice Potter Stewart :

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hard-core pornography"], and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it..."

I don't support Biden. You know, the guy accused by eight women of sexual assault?

Look, you and I both know that we had two choices in the last two elections, and those were bad and mediocre. So I went with the guy who opposed abortion and promised to appoint fed judges who valued the Constitution. So yes, I think it pleases God immensely to stand against the murder of innocent, unborn human beings. Your playing the part of Mr. Pot to my Mr. Kettle gets tiresome.

Forget the cookware dude, are you not concerned about almost 3,000 deaths a day, and that's not counting what the toll will be when the holiday numbers are realized. Your personal peeves pale when you look at a big picture and it's disgusting your concern is making sure the dufus gets credit for his incompetence that leads to those rapidly rising numbers of sickness and death.

Not to mention the continuing erosion of the economy by covid.

Forget the cookware dude, are you not concerned about almost 3,000 deaths a day, and that's not counting what the toll will be when the holiday numbers are realized. Your personal peeves pale when you look at a big picture and it's disgusting your concern is making sure the dufus gets credit for his incompetence that leads to those rapidly rising numbers of sickness and death.3K deaths a day? How appropriate that that number is about the number of abortions a day that you couldn't care less about. Well, I've asked you twice as to what else we should be doing that is not presently being done about Covid, and you've passed on the question both times. We test more people by far than any other country, and we have developed a vaccine in record time. I'm sure you've just forgotten to give Trump credit for that, and recognized how many lives have been saved, and will be saved, by those two measures?

As to the economy, you are clearly not paying attention in even the smallest measure.

I refer to post #94

Exactly. It is precisely the kind of truthful post that goes, by personal choice, in one ear and out the other of the liberal dems on this board.

like Quid and the emperor were so stellar when dealing with H1N1

Ron Klain, who was Quid's chief of staff at the time sais, “It is purely a fortuity that this isn’t one of the great mass casualty events in American history” “It had nothing to do with us doing anything right. It just had to do with luck. If anyone thinks that this can’t happen again, they don’t have to go back to 1918, they just have to go back to 2009, 2010 and imagine a virus with a different lethality, and you can just do the math on that.”


H1N1 infected 60 million Americans .It just wasn't as lethal as previous swine flu events like 1918 .

One of the big differences was that Bush had supplied the emergency stockpile . The emperor and Quid depleted and did not restock . If H1N1 had been as lethal as covid ,we would've seen 2 million Americans dead .


But no one knew it at the time . Did the emperor and Quid act decisive ? Except for emptying the strategic supplies ;no . Did they close the border even as they knew the origin was in Mexico ? No . Did they close schools even though it was kids that were the highest risk of death ? No . Were there lock downs ? No. The emperor got away with saying he would try to control the impact of the virus ... not control the virus .

Vaccine ..... it is easier to create a flu vaccine than a new strain of covid . The emperor promised 100 million doses by fall in anticipation of a 2nd wave . Only 11 million were produced . By that time 22 million Americans had been infected .
[America would've been better off in just acknowledging(as Democrats once did ) that there is only so much a government can do to control a germ.

Quid lucks out . He comes in at the tail end of a pandemic; when a number of vaccines will be coming on the market and the distribution system will have been set up by a man who's business before he became President was to manage the distribution chain of a number of large projects at the same time .
But Quid will get the credit much like the emperor got a Peace Prize nomination 11 days after he was inaugurated (he made a couple of hate America speeches overseas which secured his selection) .

I tried to ignore this revision of history, because the dufus's words and actions made things worse as evidence by current events. Of course this was a bigger disaster and he didn't rise to the challenge, just the opposite he LIED about it and what he was doing about it which was next to nothing.

Only the dufusites bought his crap and thankfully enough people with good sense got his a$$ out of office. It's going to get a lot worse unfortunately.

We test more people by far than any other country, and we have developed a vaccine in record time. I'm sure you've just forgotten to give Trump credit for that,
Trump has always wanted testing to stop because there would be fewer covid cases if no tests. And the vaccine was developed in spite of him.

thankfully enough people with good sense got his a$$ out of office https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keANzinHWUA&t=425

Trump has always wanted testing to stop because there would be fewer covid cases if no tests. And the vaccine was developed in spite of him.It would be hard to imagine any two statements any more absurd, or any more devoid of evidence, than these.

It would be hard to imagine any two statements any more absurd, or any more devoid of evidence, than these.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aN1eptTaWVM

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/covid-vaccine-funded-by-trump/

Your Snopes link is ridiculous in that it applies to one company out of six.

""No doubt, Operation Warp Speed is a huge success," said Tinglong Dai, associate professor of Operations Management and Business Analytics at Johns Hopkins University Carey Business School in Baltimore."You can like or hate the Trump administration, but no doubt, it's a huge success — unprecedented success."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/operation-warp-speed-trump-pfizer-moderna-vaccine-1.5806820

The Youtube video was beyond ridiculous. Trump's point was clearly that an abundance of testing is showing an abundance of cases. You have somehow twisted that to mean something completely absurd.

Trump's point was clearly that an abundance of testing is showing an abundance of cases.
Thus, his conclusion is (and he said it more than once), if we stop testing, the number of cases will go down.

Only non-thinkers understand that to mean that testing is somehow causing disease. His comment was to the effect that we know about a lot of cases that we might not have paid much attention to otherwise except that they were made obvious by testing. The truth is, the great majority of Covid cases come and go without any great threat the a person's life or health.

Here's your great liberal dem gov of Cali following his own rules. After lying about it and pretending they were outside, a reporter got this pic out to show the whole deal. I'm sure all of the "I hate lying" liberal dems on this site will react vigorously. See the masks? Yeah, I don't either. And they were putting their kids at risk! Oh the inhumanity of it all!
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/IMG_6673-600x386.jpg

Only non-thinkers understand that to mean that testing is somehow causing disease.
Yup! You pegged him perfectly!


Here's your great liberal dem gov of Cali following his own rules. After lying about it and pretending they were outside, a reporter got this pic out to show the whole deal.
Just like you Christians who don't think you can worship God unless you're spitting saliva droplets at each other as you lustily sing hymns.

Just like you Christians who don't think you can worship God unless you're spitting saliva droplets at each other as you lustily sing hymns.Once again you are incorrect. I have no affection for "spitting saliva droplets". That would be much more likely for someone reading a porn book, would it not? Otherwise, very naturally, since Newsom is a liberal dem and not associated with Trump, you are cheerfully able to pass right by and say nothing critical of his lying and hypocrisy. Does he write porn, too?

TDS. No doubt about it.

But I will say that I do love the hymns and do love to sing them. I like a number of genres of Christian music. I led singing for 20 years and got a lot out of it. And yes, if we are going to sing of God, it should be done with heart and soul, for He is certainly worthy of it.

Once again you are incorrect. I have no affection for "spitting saliva droplets".
You've never seen the laser imaging and high-speed videography that show how thousands of saliva droplets that are too small to see with the naked eye are emitted in normal speech and singing?

You've never seen the laser imaging and high-speed videography that show how thousands of saliva droplets that are too small to see with the naked eye are emitted in normal speech and singing?I have, and in fact I didn't say I didn't do it. I said I have no affection for it. But at any rate, wouldn't that make you one of those, "Christians who don't think you can worship God unless you're spitting saliva droplets at each other as you lustily sing hymns?"

But at any rate, wouldn't that make you one of those, "Christians who don't think you can worship God unless you're spitting saliva droplets at each other as you lustily sing hymns?"
I'm doing church at home.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keANzinHWUA&t=425

You ever wonder how evidence is abundant on social media and the court of public opinion, but never enters the court of law?

Newsome screwed up, what an idiot move. Pales in comparison to the dufus antics that he passes for leadership and small wonder America is getting it's a$$ kicked by the bug.

And again. What do you propose that we do which is not already being done, other than getting rid of hypocritical dem govs?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keANzinHWUA&t=425

Interesting link. The video is by Falun Gong, a very weird Chinese society who believe Trump is on earth to be their saviour and defeat Chinese Communism

They claim that aliens started invading human minds in the beginning of the 20th century, leading to mass corruption and the invention of computers. They have also denounced feminism and homosexuality and claim their leader can walk through walls and levitate.

Any more videos, tomder?

And again. What do you propose that we do which is not already being done, other than getting rid of hypocritical dem govs?

Stop listening to the loonies who say do NOTHING. Or at least take the stupid tin foil hat off your head. Not a good look.

So for the six hundredth and thirty fifth time, what do you suggest we do that is not currently being done? Your pathetic references to loonies, foil hats, and cookware were silly to begin with and have not improved with time. They look more and more like a smoke screen to hide behind.

For the millionth time, put people before profits and flattening the curb is a simple matter. Less sick, less dying. Manageable. I've been say that from the beginning, but talking to a dufusite is useless. You just run off on some loony tangent and ignore the problem.

YOU'RE THE PROBLEM!

So for the six hundredth and thirty fifth time, what do you suggest we do that is not currently being done?
1. wear a mask when out and about
2. maintain a good social distance
3. daily take iron, vitamin C, zinc, aspirin or tylenol, and famotidine
4. Drink plenty of water; stay hydrated

flattening the curbWhy would you want to flatten a "curb"? Are your streets too high? "Less sick. Less dying." Why on earth didn't we all think of that one? While we're at it, we could just go "whoosh!" and blow the whole thing away.

If you ever come up with any REAL ideas, then get back with me. You know, something more than, "Less sick, and less dying." Cause I got to tell you, Homey ain't putting up with that! (I'm telling you, it's a keeper.)


1. wear a mask when out and about
2. maintain a good social distance
3. daily take iron, vitamin C, zinc, aspirin or tylenol, and famotidine
4. Drink plenty of water; stay hydratedThis was supposed to be about ideas NOT already being employed.

This was supposed to be about ideas NOT already being employed.
Unfortunately, most of them aren't.

Only in Chicago, evidently, or in California at a liberal dem governor's birthday party. Come to Mississippi where we are employing all of them other than possibly #3. I honestly have no idea what most people are doing in their own homes. And are you aware that your new pres is NOT going to mandate wearing masks or social distancing??? Homey ain't going to put up with that!

Only in Chicago, evidently, or in California at a liberal dem governor's birthday party. Come to Mississippi where we are employing all of them other than possibly #3
#3 is the most important one in that list!

your new pres is NOT going to mandate wearing masks or social distancing
Not true, buddy boy.

#3 is the most important one in that list!How do you propose that our government mandate that?


Not true, buddy boy.It is true. It's been in the news for several days now. And at any rate, it is very unlikely he has the authority to mandate such things. Who would enforce it, the FBI? Federal marshals?

How do you propose that our government mandate that?
It's not a mandatable instruction. You'll see!

It is true. It's been in the news for several days now. And at any rate, it is very unlikely he has the authority to mandate such things. Who would enforce it, the FBI? Federal marshals?
You sure haven't kept up. Been out at the bar too often?

You sure haven't kept up. Have it your way. It's been in the news everywhere, I suppose, but Chicago. Have a good night.

Why would you want to flatten a "curb"? Are your streets too high? "Less sick. Less dying." Why on earth didn't we all think of that one? While we're at it, we could just go "whoosh!" and blow the whole thing away.

Education is the cure for IGNORANCE! You still have to apply the education though, and that's the failure of the dufus. Yeah I meant "curve" not curb. I goofed.

I knew what you meant. I was just messing with you. My point in all of this is that we are doing just about everything that can be done short of just shutting down EVERYTHING and forcing EVERYONE to stay at home for a month. Your disregard of Trump won't allow you to say that, but it's basically true. In my area it is unusual to see people in stores without masks. Restaurants do primarily take out business. Social distancing is practiced, and travel has become much more limited. There is now soap in every men's bathroom because we realize the importance of hand washing. So go ahead and continue to rail against Trump, but it would be nice of you to be honest enough to simply admit that there is very little else that can be done. Either that, or tell us your ideas, and ideas more specific and practical than glaringly obvious platitudes like "less disease", "less death", or "We need to flatten the curve." Even your hero, JB, has no idea of practical substance other than spending enormous amounts of money (that we don't have) to send checks to people and states in an attempt to buy even more votes in the next election. He is not, and likely cannot, going to mandate the wearing of masks, social distancing, etc., and even if he did, how would it get enforced? Would you suggest sending federal marshals out to write tickets to people for not standing six feet apart? Now I hope he does it because it would lead to a popular uprising that would sweep liberal dems out of office for the next twenty years, but he won't. Even JB has better sense than that. So we're going to continue to muddle along until the Trump vaccine gets widespread enough to diminish infections. That's simply how it is whether we like it or not.

But like I said, if you have any specific, practical suggestions of what we can do differently, then by all means enlighten us with your education and disperse the dark clouds of ignorance. Just throwing the ole transmission in hate gear and popping the clutch isn't accomplishing very much.

Let me get this straight. Your area embraces what the scientist have said and flattened your curve successfully? That's great, so imagine the better outcomes if we all embraced that action as a country. That's not what the dufus has done and not what he asked for. He called for us to IGNORE the virus and keep doing what we were doing before covid. The whole GOP joined him in politicizing this blue state versus red state meme and we ain't got no money to do what it takes to get us through this crisis. The dufus didn't even try to save lives. He puts profits before people especially his own and enough wingers holler about their rights to make a loud enough noise to stifle any UNIFIED response to this CRISIS!

What a waste to accept such incompetence and mediocracy, illness, and death that leads the whole frigging world. We don't have to just muddle along and it's not the dufus's vaccine, and it ain't here yet. Thankfully the people have booted this fool out of the top seat in the world and that may yet be the best thing that we could do for the nation. Now we can do better than MUDDLE.

Your area embraces what the scientist have said and flattened your curve successfully?We are following the guidelines and the curve is NOT flattening. That's kind of the whole point.

Well, as I thought, no new ideas. No new suggestions. Oh well. When the Trump vaccine, and he is primarily responsible for its rapid development, get's geared up this month, then by January or February we will see declining figures. Until then we just have to do the best we can.

We are following the guidelines and the curve is NOT flattening. That's kind of the whole point.

Please elaborate on what the problem is in your area.

We are fighting a disease that is fairly highly infectious and for which there is no real treatment and no truly effective prevention other than just staying away from other people. It is not a real problem in the under fifty crowd, but is a significant threat to the over fifty crowd. (Note: That would be both of us. Just another disadvantage of old age, I guess.)

We are fighting a disease that is fairly highly infectious and for which there is no real treatment and no truly effective prevention other than just staying away from other people. It is not a real problem in the under fifty crowd, but is a significant threat to the over fifty crowd. (Note: That would be both of us. Just another disadvantage of old age, I guess.)

It's a REAL problem in enough to exercise caution and not ignore dire consequences even among the young. They're called long haulers if they survive.

Young people are at risk of severe Covid-19 illness (nbcnews.com) (https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/young-people-are-risk-severe-covid-19-illness-n1240761)

Why Covid-19 kills some young people - CNN (https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/05/health/young-people-dying-coronavirus-sanjay-gupta/index.html)

Fighting the dangerous myth that COVID only threatens the old or ill (usatoday.com) (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/11/28/fighting-dangerous-myth-covid-only-threatens-old-ill/6440182002/)

I found this article also, one of many that outlines the other factors for young folks besides just the disease itself.

Young adults, unfairly blamed for COVID-19 spread, now face stress and uncertain futures (theconversation.com) (https://theconversation.com/young-adults-unfairly-blamed-for-covid-19-spread-now-face-stress-and-uncertain-futures-150608)

Here's a good interactive map.

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/graphics/2020/03/10/us-coronavirus-map-tracking-united-states-outbreak/4945223002/

People are tired of staying home with crabby kids who can't go to school and spouses who don't spend time away from home shopping and working at a job. Domestic abuse and suicides have increased. Thus, people are no longer following the rules. Weddings and funerals are becoming superspreader events. People want what's normal again.

not ignore dire consequences even among the young. Sorry, but that is simply not true. Of course there are "dire consequences" possible, but the risks for the young are MUCH less than for those over fifty. It's not even close.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/investigations-discovery/hospitalization-death-by-age.html

And no, I am not going to read your five links to nowhere. Too much wasted time in the past to have me do that.

Yeah I know guy, I'm realizing your reading comprehension skills are suspect, or you're a loony winger who only reads stuff he agrees with for whatever reason.

Bummer!

You always get mad when you're proven to be wrong like this?

You always get mad when you're proven to be wrong like this?
He's not mad (you haven't ever seen him mad) -- and he's not wrong either. The threat of long-term or future health problems, especially with heart and lungs, are the clouds hanging over the heads of those young people who survive COVID-19.

Yeah. There's always the threat of the unknown. Same thing is true of driving cars. 40,000 dead a year, and countless injuries, and yet there is no call to do away with cars. At any rate, you still have not said what should be done other than what is being done now. The Trump vaccine is the great hope at this point. I don't know of anything else other than vitamin C and other very marginally effective ideas. The Trump vaccine is the only path forward.

Yeah. There's always the threat of the unknown. Same thing is true of driving cars. 40,000 dead a year, and countless injuries, and yet there is no call to do away with cars.
Yes, get rid of gasoline-powered cars (and thus preserve our environment and air quality) by the use of electric cars and smart cars.

At any rate, you still have not said what should be done other than what is being done now.
Numbers 3 and 4 are not part of the general conversation so far. Even you apparently don't follow those very helpful guidelines.

The Trump vaccine is the great hope at this point.
Trump doesn't believe the virus is that big a deal and has nothing to do with any vaccine development except maybe saying, "Yeah, sure. Go ahead. Have fun playing with those chemicals."

Still. No answers. Oh well.

So your scheme to go electric would not solve the highway deaths problem. What would it cost? Prediction: You have no idea.

Still. No answers. Oh well.
That reading comprehension problem pops up yet again....

So your scheme to go electric would not solve the highway deaths problem. What would it cost? Prediction: You have no idea.
Reduce the speed limit. Have periodic driver written and road tests for licensed drivers. If we stop spending millions of dollars on oil drilling e.g., we could put that money into manufacturing low-cost electric cars.

That reading comprehension problem pops up yet again....The weak as water excuse making shows up again. Poor WG. She can't make her case, so it has to be someone else's fault.

So the cost of electric cars is bigger government and less freedom? No thanks.

That reading comprehension problem pops up yet again....

Reduce the speed limit. Have periodic driver road tests, even for licensed drivers. If we stop spending millions of dollars on oil drilling e.g., we could put that money into manufacturing low-cost electric cars.

What you forget is electric cars have to be powered by electricity, solar cells don't work at night so the renewables cycle doesn't sync therefore the options are nuclear or fossil fueled and the lithium battery industry is a serious pollutant, given there is enough lithium to produce all those batteries, it is another liberal pipe dream

What you forget is electric cars have to be powered by electricity, solar cells don't work at night so the renewables cycle doesn't sync therefore the options are nuclear or fossil fueled and the lithium battery industry is a serious pollutant, given there is enough lithium to produce all those batteries, it is another liberal pipe dreamAbsolutely well said.

You always get mad when you're proven to be wrong like this?

Why should I get mad? You presented ratios not data, factors without the actual numbers. Very interesting but incomplete. If you have those real numbers with age breakdowns I would love to see it.

I would never get mad when I intend to chunk a rock...it ruins my accuracy.

What you forget is electric cars have to be powered by electricity
At night my friend plugs her electric car into an outlet in her garage.


The weak as water excuse making shows up again. Poor WG. She can't make her case, so it has to be someone else's fault.
Nope. I'm doing what you taught me to do.

ratios not data,You have no idea how ridiculous that statement is, do you? But to make you happy, feast your eyes.



Age Group
Percentage
Count


0 - 4 Years
<0.1
48


5 - 17 Years
0.1
108


18 - 29 Years
0.5
1,063


30 - 39 Years
1.3
2,573


40 - 49 Years
3
6,034


50 - 64 Years
14.8
29,791


65 - 74 Years
20.8
41,795


75 - 84 Years
27
54,159


85+ Years
32.5
65,148



https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#demographics

Happy now? Over 85% of deaths were 65 or above. Stay safe, Tal.

Do the math. That's still a lot of young people. SO FAR.

Yeah. 0-30 it's about 6/10 of 1 percent. Now every life is important, but a person would have to be stupid beyond belief to not see that the big, big risk is 65 and above, and the below 50 group has much, much, much, much, much less risk. And that is exactly the point that you decided must surely be wrong.

Yeah. 0-30 it's about 6/10 of 1 percent. Now every life is important, but a person would have to be stupid beyond belief to not see that the big, big risk is 65 and above, and the below 50 group has much, much, much, much, much less risk. And that is exactly the point that you decided must surely be wrong.
In ten to twenty years, have a health chat with those who had mild symptoms or worse and then recovered, and were below 50 in 2020.

Yeah. I'll be sure to do that.

You have no idea how ridiculous that statement is, do you? But to make you happy, feast your eyes.









https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#demographics (https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#demographics)

Happy now? Over 85% of deaths were 65 or above. Stay safe, Tal.

and this proves what? that old people die, how very precious

Be safe JL, you and your family. I know how I would feel if my kids were part of that 3%. One mans statistic is another devastation.

At night my friend plugs her electric car into an outlet in her garage.


.
again you are ignoring the reality of the cost of producing electricity and lithium on the environment

again you are ignoring the reality of the cost of producing electricity and lithium on the environment
And the cost of pumping oil and of fracking....

Another friend put solar panels on his roof. His electricity costs went to zero.

again you are ignoring the reality of the cost of producing electricity and lithium on the environment



This is paraphrased from Forbes, a right-leaning publication, showing that electric vehicles are far better for the environment than internal combustion vehicles.

The stark difference in emissions between electric vehicles and internal combustion vehicles over the course of their lifetimes is tremendous. With no combustion and complete lack of tailpipe emissions, electric vehicles produce the bulk of their emissions through their manufacturing process and the sourcing of their energy including the use of rare earths, giving them an advantage over petrol and diesel-powered cars.


As electric vehicles become more common and manufacturing becomes more widespread, battery recycling will be more efficient and reduce the need to extract new materials, therefore lessening the reliance on mining and production of new batteries.


The total impact of electric vehicles is more pronounced when looking at their complete lifetime, where combustion engine vehicles are unable to compete. Electric vehicles are responsible for considerably lower emissions over their lifetime than vehicles running on fossil fuels regardless of the source of their electricity.

And the cost of pumping oil and of fracking....
Done at a profit, and not a burden on the taxpayer.

Another friend put solar panels on his roof. His electricity costs went to zero.If that is true, then he also put in a supremely expensive bank of batteries, a converter, an auxiliary generator, and the cost of the whole thing was likely several tens of thousands of dollars. No thanks. Not too long ago I priced a solar system for a SMALL cabin. Just that was 6K, and that did not involve labor.

Done at a profit, and not a burden on the taxpayer.
If that is true, then he also put in a supremely expensive bank of batteries, a converter, an auxiliary generator, and the cost of the whole thing was likely several tens of thousands of dollars. No thanks. Not too long ago I priced a solar system for a SMALL cabin. Just that was 6K, and that did not involve labor.

I agree, roof top solar is a dumb decision, all it does is transfer to cost from the energy company to the financier and even if you own it outright it is at best a zero sum game, Solar cells have a limited life, twenty years if you are lucky and batteries even less. What happens when the sun doesn't shine. Even in the climate I am blessed with, virtually perpetual sun shine I couldn't justify it

Yep. It makes no sense. One good hailstorm and back to starting over. Solar and wind are both pretty nonsensical alternatives. Here, they would never be used at all if not for government subsidies. And yes, that is the same government that cannot produce a balanced budget.

Yep. It makes no sense. One good hailstorm and back to starting over. Solar and wind are both pretty nonsensical alternatives. Here, they would never be used at all if not for government subsidies. And yes, that is the same government that cannot produce a balanced budget.

Yes common sense is not very common, but stupidity is very common, afterall, half the human race are below average intelligence and we know who they vote for don't we? or maybe not

We are developing stuff where we can, and just because YOU have no sun and wind doesn't mean somebody else that does shouldn't harness it. That would be crazy. Overcoming obstacles is what some people do and is the road to progress.

Develop and use anything you want. "Harness" what you want. Just don't ask the rest of us to fund it with tax monies, because that is the only way any of it gets done. Without substantial tax subsidies, wind and solar would be as dead as they deserve to be. And don't make me laugh by suggesting that you are overcoming obstacles on the "road to progress".

Develop and use anything you want. "Harness" what you want. Just don't ask the rest of us to fund it with tax monies, because that is the only way any of it gets done. Without substantial tax subsidies, wind and solar would be as dead as they deserve to be. And don't make me laugh by suggesting that you are overcoming obstacles on the "road to progress". all hands on deck and let the market decide

Market forces only develop things there is a market for

Market forces only develop things there is a market for

Or will be a market for. A good salesman can sell anything...even ice water to an Eskimo.

or a Trump to the american electorate but as Lincoln said you can fool some of the people some of the time and all of the people some of the time but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. Trump found that out and Biden should remember that as should all salesmen

ER...sure it was Lincoln that said that?

ER...sure it was Lincoln that said that?
from https://abrahamlincolnassociation.org/you-can-fool-all-of-the-people-lincoln-never-said-that/
Early recollections place the saying in an 1858 speech Lincoln delivered in Clinton, Illinois [during the famous Lincoln-Douglas debates]. The first appeared in 1904 by E. E. Pierson, who remembered Lewis Campbell, a respected citizen of DeWitt County, telling him of the 1858 speeches that Lincoln and Douglas delivered in Clinton. According to Campbell, Lincoln said, “Judge Douglas cannot fool the people: you may fool people for a time; you can fool a part of the people all the time; but you can’t fool all the people all the time.”

The Babylon Bee | Your Trusted Source for Christian News Satire. (https://babylonbee.com/video/24)

People talk about deaths from covid but the overall death rate isn't higher, so you have to wonder is this a plot to ruin our economies

what are you comparing the "overall death rate " to ? Worldwide 106,147,600 people have had the virus and at least 2,316,000 people have died from covid in a year .

I do think there are some who would take advantage of the pandemic to advance their political agenda . My examples of Dems suddenly being desperate to open the economies and schools since Quid was enthroned are examples of that.

A bit one sided considering the whole repub approach to this health crisis. Ignoring the pandemic and the lies served no one but themselves or so they thought. Maybe JOE inherited an economy/crisis that was ready for the corner to be turned but no less than the dufus taking credit for his inheritance either.

what are you comparing the "overall death rate " to ? Worldwide 106,147,600 people have had the virus and at least 2,316,000 people have died from covid in a year .

I do think there are some who would take advantage of the pandemic to advance their political agenda . My examples of Dems suddenly being desperate to open the economies and schools since Quid was enthroned are examples of that.
What I'm saying and have done before is that covid hasn't increased the overall death rate but it has increased the panic rate

What I'm saying and have done before is that covid hasn't increased the overall death rate but it has increased the panic rate

This false report first claimed in a university newspaper in October 2020 was promptly debunked by the CDC. However, it has become a widely quoted story principally by right-wing media.

Deaths from March 15, 2020 to January 16, 2021 were 20% higher than normal. This is probably an undercount since death statistics are still being updated. This data is from the CDC report issued on February 8, 2021.

The world-wide death rate for 2020 was but marginally higher than 2019. It represented an increase of less than 0.5% and was actually lower than several of the preceding years.



Year
Death Rate
Growth Rate







2020
7.612
0.440%


2019
7.579
0.440%


2018
7.546
-0.320%


2017
7.570
-0.320%


2016
7.594
-0.330%


2015
7.619
-0.310%


2014
7.643
-0.310%


2013
7.667
-0.980%


2012
7.743
-0.960%




https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/WLD/world/death-rate (https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/WLD/world/death-rate)

Thank you Jl my point exactly

Thank you Jl my point exactlyHappy to be of service. About 40% of the deaths in the U.S. have come from people over the age of 78, which just so happens to be the average length of life here. 80% of the deaths are in people 65 or over, so age clearly is a contributing factor. Hope all of us old folks here stay healthy.

Wifey and I are deciding on the vaccine. I guess we are going to take it.

Here is the detailed analysis from the Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) - a US government agency.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

Note that the previous death rate table posted prior to the one above was from the UN and contains the following disclaimer prominently stated at the beginning of that report: NOTE: All 2020 and later data are UN projections and DO NOT include any impacts of the COVID-19 virus.

Another example of right-wing distortion and lies - or an honest mistake?

no athos just "facts", facts are updated from time to time. The whole point is; while covid has proven deadly, the incidence of other causes of death have fallen so it all balances out in the end, and the mass hysteria may or may not have been necessary. We have erred on the side of caution but it is time to get back to normal. People die all the time and our best efforts only delay the inevitable. I'm a case in point, three weeks out from a quad bypass, so I'll last a little longer

no athos just "facts", facts are updated from time to time.

Yes, and after the facts are UPDATED, the prior facts are no longer accurate! Good Lord, how simple can a concept be? Are you off your meds again?

I took the CDC link. It seemed to be for the U.S. only. Is that correct?

As for the link I provided, it's true that 2020 is a U.N. projection. I haven't been able to locate any genuinely current data for the world, so that's the best available as far as I know. It does support Clete's contention.

Yes, and after the facts are UPDATED, the prior facts are no longer accurate! Good Lord, how simple can a concept be? Are you off your meds again?

I was never on "meds" yes it is a simple concept you don't seem to understand. Any "facts" that don't fit your narrative are propaganda

I was never on "meds" yes it is a simple concept you don't seem to understand. Any "facts" that don't fit your narrative are propaganda

You contended that the Covid death rate hasn't increased at all. Do want it read back to you? "Facts" are what describes reality.

Being states and locals compile the data any world or general data is irrelevant. States and locals hopefully tailor their mitigation response efforts base on what's occurring within their own jurisdictions not places across the world, except to observe and adopt best practices, and community response and compliance. I would imagine that the more space between humans the slower the spread, and conversely the more dense a population the easier or greater the covid spread will be.

It's small wonder the data looks better after the holiday and get better but the data has always reflected that a greater community response for mitigation is a good policy. If half comply and half don't then we can't expect a more perfect outcome. Pretty predictable stuff actually. We are divided as to the health priority, or the economic one as we are now on who gets vaccinated and who waits for more. Demand is higher than supply, and understandable we are all anxious for normal again, which realistically ain't going to happen for a few more months given current circumstance.

The fact is, the best data we have shows that the world wide death rate scarcely increased at all, so unless there is some more reliable data to contradict that, Clete's contention would seem to be correct.

The fact is, the best data we have shows that the world wide death rate scarcely increased at all, so unless there is some more reliable data to contradict that, Clete's contention would seem to be correct.

The "best" data is incomplete.

The UN info contains the following disclaimer prominently displayed at the beginning of that report: NOTE: All 2020 and later data are UN projections and DO NOT include any impacts of the COVID-19 virus.

The CDC report has the FACTS for the US showing a substantial increase.

So how is that different from what has already been said? Your data is for America only. The data I posted is the best available for the world unless you have a better source. It plainly supports what Clete said. But if you have better data, then I’d love to see it.

Yahoo news and MSN have current data. Broken down by state county and country and updated constantly. We lead the world or close to it so what's the real point folks?

The data I posted is the best available for the world

IT'S-NOT-COMPLETE.

NOTE: All 2020 and later data are UN projections and DO NOT include any impacts of the COVID-19 virus.

Good grief.

some people do get angry when confronted with facts

some people do get angry when confronted with facts

Only when facts are ignored.

some people do get angry when confronted with factsSo very true. The real problem with the world-wide data is that it didn't fit his narrative. It still remains the best data available. If it changes in the future, then I will change my views. That's good advice for some others on this board.

enough with the advice already just stick to the facts, new fact out of China, covid didn't originate in a lab but from some unidentified animal, seems like the WHO is drinking the koolaid

new fact out of China, covid didn't originate in a lab but from some unidentified animal, seems like the WHO is drinking the koolaid

and you wonder why Trump took the US out of WHO .

and you wonder why Trump took the US out of WHO .

And stripped it of a crucial guiding force for the sake of running his own facts and agenda.

and you wonder why Trump took the US out of WHO .

No Trump left anything he didn't like

Clete is right about WHO . They have repeatedly lied about covid 19 . Jan 2020 Taiwan warned WHO about human transmission of covid and yet WHO persisted in going with the Chi-com narrative that it was not transmitted person to person. They went along with the lie that it originated in a meat market . Now at China's beckoning they are advancing this narrative that it was derived naturally in the wild instead of the Wuhan lab. For WHO to say it is 'highly unlikely ' that it originated in the lab instead of saying it is most likely the source tells you have much the organization is merely a political tool of Beijing .

Isn't that often the case when a major player walks from the table? Whomever is left controls the narrative. Don't blame China for filling the vacuum we left. Take it as a cautionary warning of not being willing to stay engaged.

Tal It isn't about you, the WHO backed the China narrative before Trump pulled out

Tal It isn't about you, the WHO backed the China narrative before Trump pulled out

Never made it about me or even US, but if you think the WHO and China was lying it would seem exposing the truth would be better than cutting and running.

Never made it about me or even US, but if you think the WHO and China was lying it would seem exposing the truth would be better than cutting and running.

Communist societies are into narrative not truth, and orientals save face. China and the CCP lost face because the epidemic started in China. maybe it started in a lab, maybe in an unhygenic wet market, and maybe as they say from an unknown species. The damage is done and the WHO have had the wool pulled over their eyes but after a year what could you expect? Covid apparently spreads in many ways

Trump was right to pull the US and our funding out of that joke organization masquerading as a legitimate health watch dog. But that is true of most UN organizations . Before we pulled out WHO was acting as a propaganda organization for the Chi-coms .

Communist societies are into narrative not truth,

So is the dufus


and orientals save face.

So does the dufus!


China and the CCP lost face because the epidemic started in China. maybe it started in a lab, maybe in an unhygenic wet market, and maybe as they say from an unknown species.

Finally a coherent logic!


The damage is done and the WHO have had the wool pulled over their eyes but after a year what could you expect? Covid apparently spreads in many ways

The dufus pulled the wool over our eyes in America by downplaying and ignoring the danger...yes we have the audio. Can't trust anybody Clete...especially our own dufus!

Trump was right to pull the US and our funding out of that joke organization masquerading as a legitimate health watch dog. But that is true of most UN organizations . Before we pulled out WHO was acting as a propaganda organization for the Chi-coms .

Still are





Can't trust anybody Clete...especially our own dufus!

Noone said you can trust any politician and certainly not a load mouth buffoon but many did because what he said had the ring of truth

what he said had the ring of truthIt was much deeper than that since many factors entered in. There was, for instance, the fact that the dems ran the most corrupt pres candidate in decades in HC. There was Trump's promise to decisively end the immigration crisis on our southern border. People believed Trump had a better understanding of how to develop a healthy economy. Perhaps most of all, many people believed, correctly I think, that HC was the candidate of the big money elite, including nearly all of the major media outlets, who were attempting to tell us how to think and what to think. That is still going on except in even greater measure. The pushback against it is only just beginning.

The dufus run for president was perfect timing since no other repub was dominant or popular nor as dynamic for a grassroots voter wanting change from a tired old establishment ideology that they felt ignored them amid an rapidly ever changing social upheaval of this changing world. Despite winning the popular vote, poor HC was the victim of a poor turnout in some key states dems needed most, just as the dufus was a victim of his own making losing the repubs he needed as the dems ramped up their own turnout efforts this last election.

Much has been made of the 74M dufus voters, an angry disappointed lot at this time, but a big mistake to ignore the 80M dem voters that put Biden in the WH with a slim majority in the senate and house. A lot of repubs had to run from the dufus, and stay with their local heroes for that to happen, and that is on the shoulders of the dufus.

Can repubs get their groove back after this election? Or has the dufus destroyed them nationally? Who emerges as the next repub hero, or will the dufus cast a huge shadow over these cowards allowing the loonies to wag the dogs tail to disgrace?

and what did Evita do ?Claimed that the vote was stolen . And the Dems ran with that for 4 years . Tell you what ;you say that Trump stealing the election through Russian collusion was a big fat lie ;then I will say that the 2020 elections was not rigged and stolen. Fair deal in an attempt to move on ?

Pretty sure I can predict how that agreement is going to not work out.

and what did Evita do ?Claimed that the vote was stolen . And the Dems ran with that for 4 years . Tell you what ;you say that Trump stealing the election through Russian collusion was a big fat lie ;then I will say that the 2020 elections was not rigged and stolen. Fair deal in an attempt to move on ?

Depends if the repubs latest voter suppression drive doesn't take the news cycle or we get a dufus perp walk on primetime. Never know what the next current event will be. Since finally the last election is over. 2022 can get started.

Pretty sure I can predict how that agreement is going to not work out.




Depends if the repubs latest voter suppression drive doesn't take the news cycle or we get a dufus perp walk on primetime. Never know what the next current event will be. Since finally the last election is over. 2022 can get started.












and j takes the point

I can see dufus supporters wanting to move on, maybe gloat a bit. That saves them the embarrassment for explaining his despicable behavior or repub cowardice to hold him accountable. He got off on a technicality that Mitch made sure he made happen. That's okay, well played Slick! Don't party to hard fringers, game ain't over. This is repubs second fumble the way I see it.

I think you know that!

The kangaroo court is over with. Kind of a shame. It needed to go on for months so the dem Congress would not have time to mess the country up.

and what did Evita do ?Claimed that the vote was stolen . And the Dems ran with that for 4 years .

This is an outrageous lie. HC congratulated Trump soon after the election.


Tell you what ;you say that Trump stealing the election through Russian collusion was a big fat lie ;then I will say that the 2020 elections was not rigged and stolen.

The 2016 election was when the Russians interfered. A proven fact. Nobody but Trump and the loony right claimed HC and/or the Democrats claimed COLLUSION.

The 2020 election was the fairest election in history according to Republican Chris Krebs who was in charge of monitoring the election. Trump IMMEDIATELY fired him for telling the truth! Later AG Barr said the same thing, but he resigned before Trump could fire him.


Fair deal in an attempt to move on ?

You wouldn't know fair if it hit you right between the eyes.

This is an outrageous lie. HC congratulated Trump soon after the election.

“There’s just a lot that I think will be revealed. History will discover,” the Democratic Party’s 2016 presidential nominee continued. “But you don’t win by 3 million votes and have all this other shenanigans and stuff going on and not come away with an idea like, ‘Whoa, something’s not right here.’ That was a deep sense of unease.”

Hillary Clinton Maintains 2016 Election ‘Was Not On the Level’: ‘We Still Don’t Know What Really Happened’ (yahoo.com) (https://www.yahoo.com/now/hillary-clinton-maintains-2016-election-160716779.html)

"I was the candidate that they basically stole an election from," Clinton said.
Hillary Clinton: "It Makes Me Literally Sick To My Stomach" To Think About Four More Years Of Trump | Video | RealClearPolitics (https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/10/29/hillary_clinton_it_makes_me_literally_sick_to_my_s tomach_to_think_about_four_more_years_of_trump.htm l)

Hillary Clinton says the 2016 election was ‘stolen’ from her - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77i_pC3lp04)

“There’s just a lot that I think will be revealed. History will discover,” the Democratic Party’s 2016 presidential nominee continued. “But you don’t win by 3 million votes and have all this other shenanigans and stuff going on and not come away with an idea like, ‘Whoa, something’s not right here.’ That was a deep sense of unease.”

Hillary Clinton Maintains 2016 Election ‘Was Not On the Level’: ‘We Still Don’t Know What Really Happened’ (yahoo.com) (https://www.yahoo.com/now/hillary-clinton-maintains-2016-election-160716779.html)

"I was the candidate that they basically stole an election from," Clinton said.
Hillary Clinton: "It Makes Me Literally Sick To My Stomach" To Think About Four More Years Of Trump | Video | RealClearPolitics (https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/10/29/hillary_clinton_it_makes_me_literally_sick_to_my_s tomach_to_think_about_four_more_years_of_trump.htm l)

Hillary Clinton says the 2016 election was ‘stolen’ from her - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77i_pC3lp04)

The YouTube quote comes close, not perfectly, but I'll give you that one. My apologies.

The others have her questioning the election in terms other than "stolen", carefully qualified. What we know now how Trump made false claims re 2020, maybe HC was on to something.

I don't know if you can keep using HC's sour grapes at the low dem turnout as an excuse for repubs voter suppression antics and dufus shenanigans and lies any longer. Nor can you ignore the growing loony voter base that has you guys tied in knots defending the most despicable political character since the birchers.

The dufus acquittal didn't protect our constitutional way of life or the rule of law. It just exposes repubs unwillingness to defend them.

The YouTube quote comes close, not perfectly, but I'll give you that one. The others have her questioning the election in terms other than "stolen", carefully qualified.No, they don't. "'I was the candidate that they basically stole an election from,' Clinton said." You could have searched the web for five minutes and found out for yourself. Why didn't you?

Here's another. "Hillary Clinton dismissed President Trump as an “illegitimate president” and suggested that “he knows” that he stole the 2016 presidential election in a CBS News interview to be aired Sunday."



What we know now how Trump made false claims re 2020, maybe HC was on to something.Good grief. What a case of TDS.

“There’s just a lot that I think will be revealed. History will discover,” the Democratic Party’s 2016 presidential nominee continued. “But you don’t win by 3 million votes and have all this other shenanigans and stuff going on and not come away with an idea like, ‘Whoa, something’s not right here.’ That was a deep sense of unease.”

Hillary Clinton Maintains 2016 Election ‘Was Not On the Level’: ‘We Still Don’t Know What Really Happened’ (yahoo.com) (https://www.yahoo.com/now/hillary-clinton-maintains-2016-election-160716779.html)

"I was the candidate that they basically stole an election from," Clinton said.
Hillary Clinton: "It Makes Me Literally Sick To My Stomach" To Think About Four More Years Of Trump | Video | RealClearPolitics (https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/10/29/hillary_clinton_it_makes_me_literally_sick_to_my_s tomach_to_think_about_four_more_years_of_trump.htm l)

Hillary Clinton says the 2016 election was ‘stolen’ from her - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77i_pC3lp04)



You didn't see our fringers storming the capital over HC's claims did you? But we do see YOUR fringers causing barbed wires and fences to go up when their heads exploded Jan 6th.

the barbed wire is Pelosi paranoia ;as is the ridiculous metal detectors . What that is is classic Rham Emanuel 'don't let a crisis go to waste '. I fully expect the Dems to pass a version of the patriot act against right wingers this cycle .

the barbed wire is Pelosi paranoia ;as is the ridiculous metal detectors ..

You mean when a screwy Repub QANON Rep tries to enter the House armed with a Glock and approves of killing Democrat Reps?

It ain't paranoia when a nutcase is in the building.

It ain't paranoia when a nutcase is in the building.

how can you tell the difference?

the barbed wire is Pelosi paranoia ;as is the ridiculous metal detectors . What that is is classic Rham Emanuel 'don't let a crisis go to waste '. I fully expect the Dems to pass a version of the patriot act against right wingers this cycle .

I think it's too little to late but amazing you single out one leader to blame and no mention of the others especially of your so called party. Pretty selective but not surprising. What is surprising is you seem to be like the dufus and supporting those extreme right wing nut cases which is the whole problem Tom.

No guns on the congressional floor is a simple thing to understand. Trust but verify. To many loons out there and yes some are elected. Like MTG who makes AOC look like a nun.


how can you tell the difference?

Watch the ones hollering the most!

No guns on the congressional floor is a simple thing to understand.....amazing you single out one leader to blame

https://www.yahoo.com/news/republican-lawmakers-pelosi-skirted-house-151956621.html

https://www.yahoo.com/news/republican-lawmakers-pelosi-skirted-house-151956621.html

If true, she should be fined like anyone else.

However, the Sergeant-at-Arms has so far not received any proof that Pelosi was guilty of not passing through the metal detectors.

However, the Sergeant-at-Arms has so far not received any proof that Pelosi was guilty of not passing through the metal detectors.You mean other than the eyewitness testimony of several members of the House???

"Republicans serving on the House Administration Committee asked Timothy Blodgett, acting US Sergeant-at-Arms, to impose fines on Pelosi. In a letter to Blodgett, which was posted to Twitter (https://twitter.com/HouseAdmnGOP/status/1357822895653797889), they say Pelosi did not walk through the newly installed metal detectors upon entering the House.
"Yesterday, at approximately 9:59 am, multiple members observed the Speaker of the House entering the House Chamber without completing security screening," the group wrote."

You mean other than the eyewitness testimony of several members of the House???

"Only the can determine whether an individual has failed to complete security screening as only the USCP has sufficient training to determine compliance with USCP screening procedures," Blodgett wrote in response to the letter. "I have directed that the USCP produce and provide unusual incident reports on any individual who fails to complete security screening without exception.[U] I have not received any unusual incident report from the USCP concerning the Speaker of the House."