"I WON THE ELECTION"!


Does anyone here still think Trump is in touch with reality?

I doubt even Tom would agree with that...
Can just imagine him throwing a toddler tantrum and kicking and screaming on the floor of the Oval Office.

His court challenges are being defeated one by one ;and Chief Justice Roberts has signaled clear enough that he has no appetite for SCOTUS getting involved in the electoral process.

If Sydney Powell has some proof of systemic fraud because of software algorisms either programmed ,or hacked into the Dominion systems she should present the case to the public now . That appears to be the last card Trump has to play.


Does anyone here still think Trump is in touch with reality? Al Gore tied up the election results for 37 days . That is the benchmark

Trump may have reason to feel cheated as rhetorical evidence suggests there were some irregularities but the margin is too large

Al Gore tied up the election results for 37 days . That is the benchmark
While it is indeed his right to challenge the result, the toxic rhetoric and falsehoods being employed really doesn't do him any favours.
I'm not sure if the level of incitement is actionable, but I'm sure there will be some consequences.

Anybody expecting the dufus to stop fighting because he lost is out of touch with reality. He will continue to sling the red meat just as he always has. Unfortunately that also means a steady diet of his antics for quite some time, and the right wing noise machine has NEVER gone away in the first place.

Curley 72 million people voted for him . If you ask them I believe they would say he should continue the challenges until all the legal options are exhausted . "the toxic rhetoric and falsehoods" like the 4 years of enduring phony charges of stealing the election in 2016 ?

While 72 million voted for him, far more didn't.
As you well know it's possible to win the electron yet lose the popular vote, however in this case he didn't win either.
Trump has a knack of using social media to massively amplify any message he wants, such is the nature of the platform(s).

While 72 million voted for him, far more didn't. 3 or 4 million more . I would not call that 'far more'. That's ok ;keep dismissing almost half the nation's concerns . Trump may have lost but his coat tails were huuge . Of the seven seats that flipped from the GOP to the Dems in 2018, only three now clearly remain in Democratic control. That includes pick ups in the bluest of blue states . California lost Congressional seats to the GOP and NYC did too. This despite Quid's victory and outspending the GOP by a wide margin. So despite the fact that the Dems down ticket ambitions were smashed . We still hear derision about almost a half of the country that the Dems consider toothless rube hayseed yahoos . Quid calls for unity while his coalition seeks blood.

As for social media ; Twitter and Facebook did all they could to suppress the free exchange of ideas . They are now suffering as new forums are being populated with people tired of being censored . btw thanks you for this forum.

3 or 4 million more . I would not call that 'far more'. .

what it means is Biden got 5% more votes and a very high percentage of registered voters voted


3 or 4 million more . I would not call that 'far more'. .<br><br>what it means is Biden got 5% more votes and a very high percentage of registered voters voted<br>
<br>

Try almost 6 million more which probably means former repubs switched sides for Biden but stayed loyal locally. That's okay a win is a win and the dufus is defeated. If we turn Georgia blue we win some more and count the turtle face one as a casualty with the dufus. That's not a bad election cycle I would say.

Getting rid of the dufus was a big freaking deal and if repubs are still quaking in their boots from him then that's their problem. You can visit him in jail all you want and send him cash on the books for all I care.

Wonder if he has the pardon for himself ready?

yeah they keep on finding more votes in the trunks of cars .

If Sydney Powell has some proof of systemic fraud

Sydney Powell is a systemic fraud.


Al Gore tied up the election results for 37 days . That is the benchmark

That election was NOT decided by the voters. It was decided by the nutty Scalia who refused to count the ballots cast by voters in Florida. He decided to put his ideologue crony Bush in the White House. Later counting showed Gore the definitive winner. So much for the voting public in the eyes of the Republican cultists.

Al Gore tied up the election results for 37 days . That is the benchmarkThat case was different in two respects. One is that he was a liberal dem and thus was treated as believable by the adoring press, and two was that he could demonstrate no voter fraud at all.

Sydney Powell is a systemic fraud. She is a brilliant lawyer .


That election was NOT decided by the voters. It was decided by the nutty Scalia who refused to count the ballots cast by voters in Florida. not quite . I have said the case should not have gone to any court especially SCOTUS . States decide elections .

It was the Florida courts that intervened in the election even after a machine recount was done and the legal procedure of the Florida Sec State certified the election.

In this case the Florida Supreme Court ;a court composed entirely of Democrat judges ruled that they thought it was fine for Gore to cherry pick 4 of the biggest Democrat counties in Florida and request a manual recount that was most likely to deliver Gore the election even if he in fact had fewer votes than Bush So Bush took it to SCOTUS .The court decided that yes it was ridiculous to count only select counties and ordered a recount of the entire state. (Bush v. the Palm County Canvassing Board) .

Yes SCOTUS eventually decided it was time to end the charade of recount after recount in it's Bush v Gore ruling . The vote was 7-2 that the Florida Supreme Court's order violated the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th . It was not only Scalia making that ruling . Another 5-4 decision (yes all 9 justices voted ) ruled that the state court could not continue to order recounts at this late date. Electors had to be chosen by a specific date ;as they also have to be chosen in this election. These Trump cases cannot go on forever either .

As it turned out ;an independent recount by a news consortium found even more votes for Bush than the final state tally and if the recount had gone on until the Florida Supreme Court's deadline they would not have found enough votes for Gore to make a difference.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/media-jan-june01-recount_04-03

The state legislatures makes the voting rules and they have to be clear BEFORE an election. The problem with 2000 and with many states elections this time is that too many of them had governors and courts changing the rules established before ,during ,and even after the votes .

This election doesn't appear to be headed to any court. Not from lack of effort but lack of evidence.

Pennsylvania will end up in court.

Pennsylvania will end up in court. Maybe for the same Equal Protection causes . Alito knew that and that is why he ordered that ballots that came in late be segregated . However if PA flips it would still be a Quid -270 Trump -252 Quid victory . Trump needs other states besides PA .

Not from lack of effort but lack of evidence.
Oh there is plenty of evidence . But as I said ;the courts are not really inclined to make decisions on elections unless there is undeniable evidence of illegalities . Most of the evidence is anecdotal however . Does Democrats putting cardboard up on windows during the count prove that they tampered ? It is very suspicious . Does them stopping the count in the dead of night while car loads of Quid ballots are delivered to precincts prove fraud ? It is very suspicious ,but is it enough when Democrat dominated lower courts are going to dismiss any accusation ? Roberts and his poodle Kavanaugh do not want SCOTUS to decide this election. Roberts in more concerned about SCOTUS ' reputation and his standing in the DC cocktail circuit than the integrity of a process that in reality the court should not be involved in deciding .

Roberts in more concerned about SCOTUS ' reputation and his standing in the DC cocktail circuit than the integrity of a process that in reality the court should not be involved in deciding .If true, then that will prove to be a real disappointment, and not so much just on the issue of this election, but in looking down the road. It would seem to be impossible to put people on the Court that genuinely have a passion for constitutional rule.

yeah he exposed himself with the Obamacare ruling .

Here is what was reported on CBS 'Face the Nation '


Some of the conservatives, such as Justice Clarence Thomas, deliberately avoid news articles on the Court when issues are pending (and avoid some publications altogether, such as The New York Times). They’ve explained that they don’t want to be influenced by outside opinion or feel pressure from outlets that are perceived as liberal.
But Roberts pays attention to media coverage. As Chief Justice, he is keenly aware of his leadership role on the Court, and he also is sensitive to how the Court is perceived by the public.
There were countless news articles in May warning of damage to the Court – and to Roberts’ reputation – if the Court were to strike down the mandate. Leading politicians, including the President himself, had expressed confidence the mandate would be upheld.
Some even suggested that if Roberts struck down the mandate, it would prove he had been deceitful during his confirmation hearings, when he explained a philosophy of judicial restraint.
It was around this time that it also became clear to the conservative justices that Roberts was, as one put it, “wobbly,” the sources said.
It is not known why Roberts changed his view on the mandate and decided to uphold the law. At least one conservative justice tried to get him to explain it, but was unsatisfied with the response, according to a source with knowledge of the conversation.

Biden is suggesting a national lockdown of some sort lasting 4 to 6 weeks. This will result in the economic destruction of many small businesses and financial disaster for many families. Biden will no doubt suggest we use more federal non-money to send people checks. In other words, we will spend even more money that we do not have. Why would we want to do that when, just as Trump had said, vaccines are in the pipeline and scheduled to arrive at the end of the year? Hopefully, thoughtful heads will prevail. I just hope that when we get to the spring and the corner has been turned on Covid, people will remember that it was DJT who got the job done on that front.

just keep you eyes on the sorry a$$ state I live in. Lock down is going to commence and Sandinista Bill can't wait to send the school kids home . Just in time for the holidays .

175,000 new infections nation wide and rising deaths YESTERDAY leaves little choices for governors and locals since the dufus has NO response at all does he? Ignoring the virus is such a great strategy for the economy that Americans gave the dufus the boot.

Biden is suggesting a national lockdown of some sort lasting 4 to 6 weeks. This will result in the economic destruction of many small businesses and financial disaster for many families. Biden will no doubt suggest we use more federal non-money to send people checks. In other words, we will spend even more money that we do not have. Why would we want to do that when, just as Trump had said, vaccines are in the pipeline and scheduled to arrive at the end of the year? Hopefully, thoughtful heads will prevail. I just hope that when we get to the spring and the corner has been turned on Covid, people will remember that it was DJT who got the job done on that front.
I'm surprised that there hasn't been a formal lock down, but I guess your "freedom" is more important than saving lives...
Yes, it is an economic nightmare, however as vaccines are still several months away, some pain would actually safeguard lives.
The US is already on the verge of a police state, so why not do something worthwhile and demonstrate just how "Great" a country you really are, rather than the example on how NOT to deal with such a medical emergency. How many more people need to die before you all suck it up and actually take some measure of personal responsibility... Three, four, five, Hundred Thousand !!!!!
The other countries in the same boat as the US wouldn't never be considered equals, or even close in development, yet here we are...
The best example of how to deal with this mess comes from Oceania, where they have kicked the viruses backside with serious draconian measures..

A number of European countries have been doing what you want us to do for months now. The result? The same spike in cases we are experiencing. But as long as we can continue to spend this non-money, then we'll do so. If we have to raise Tal's taxes to pay for all of this, he'll be complaining to the high heavens. His great concern for the health of his fellow Americans would evaporate like the summer dew. Not one person on this board has called for drastic tax increases ON THEM to pay for these measures. It's easy to be noble when it costs you nothing.

The other countries in the same boat as the US wouldn't never be considered equals, or even close in development, yet here we are...
The best example of how to deal with this mess comes from Oceania, where they have kicked the viruses backside with serious draconian measures..

Not without the projected damage to the economy but most infections came from travellers and they have suffered the most draconian lockdown measures to the stem the spread, limits on international arrivals, all interstate and overseas arrivals quarantine for 14 days in hotels. State borders closed, any business premise or school closed for cleaning if a case detected, contract tracing and quarantine, limits on numbers in business premises, houses, family visits, churches, events, social distancing enforced, travel boundries, large fines for failing to meet requirements but the US doesn't have the guts to implement such measures and yes, the impact on small business, in fact any business is severe

"Australia's economy had its worst quarter on record. Now it's in a historic recession."

Working like a charm. Everyone wants draconian measures as long as it's not your home being lost, your job going away, or your business being destroyed. It's real easy when it's the other guy going under.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/02/economy/australia-gdp-recession-intl-hnk/index.html


The other countries in the same boat as the US wouldn't never be considered equals, or even close in development, yet here we are...Not sure where you are getting that from. Germany, The U.K., Italy, Spain, and France are all undergoing spikes in new cases.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=Covid+cases+in+Europe&form=CHRDEF&sp=-1&pq=covid+cases+in+europe&sc=5-21&qs=n&sk=&cvid=1BEBAB01F14D44E09100DB3BCD6D9B7F

Left unabated it will be your turn soon enough to feel the ravages of sickness and death brought by the virus and the economic disaster that follows.

Good luck with that.

Left unabated it will be your turn soon enough to feel the ravages of sickness and death brought by the virus and the economic disaster that follows.

Good luck with that.Have you always been such a drama queen? Good grief. Even the thought of your taxes going up causes this reaction. Just think what would happen if your taxes DID actually go up.

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/03/29/us/texas-coronavirus-cases-promo-1585539483080/texas-coronavirus-cases-promo-1585539483080-videoSixteenByNineJumbo1600-v209.png


No drama here! (https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?hspart=iba&hsimp=yhs-syn&type=asbw_8923_CHW_US_tid1600&p=texas%20coronavirus%20update)

Scroll over interactive map

Same things happening in Europe. They're feeling the ravages of sickness and death brought by the virus and the economic disaster that follows. If only we had some violin music to go with that.

Honestly, I don't think it comes to that, but there is that possibility. But this endless criticism of Trump, when your dem govs and mayors have failed so spectacularly, gets old. It's a tough pandemic and we've done fairly well in trying to balance the interests of health with the need to avoid a devastating depression.

Not sure where you are getting that from. Germany, The U.K., Italy, Spain, and France are all undergoing spikes in new cases.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=Covid+cases+in+Europe&form=CHRDEF&sp=-1&pq=covid+cases+in+europe&sc=5-21&qs=n&sk=&cvid=1BEBAB01F14D44E09100DB3BCD6D9B7F
I was thinking in terms of volumes of infection, so that would be India, Brazil, Mexico.....

While many other countries saw distinct spikes of infection, America hasn't really relented since March, and doesn't look like reducing anytime soon...
Now whether that is down to central mismanagement or the fragmented, lone states, nature of the health response will only become clear after the fact.

I was thinking in terms of volumes of infection, so that would be India, Brazil, Mexico.....

While many other countries saw distinct spikes of infection, America hasn't really relented since March, and doesn't look like reducing anytime soon...
Now whether that is down to central mismanagement or the fragmented, lone states, nature of the health response will only become clear after the fact.

I think you are right, in our case the response was a concerted national response with state and federal leaders coming together to plan and execute a coordinated response, and while there has been some exercise of states freedom such as border closures but there was no partisan blocking of the response but a national will to get on top of it from the top down. In other words CV19 was not a political football used as an excuse for political expediency


"Australia's economy had its worst quarter on record. Now it's in a historic recession."

Working like a charm. Everyone wants draconian measures as long as it's not your home being lost, your job going away, or your business being destroyed. It's real easy when it's the other guy going under.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/02/economy/australia-gdp-recession-intl-hnk/index.html

Not sure where you are getting that from. Germany, The U.K., Italy, Spain, and France are all undergoing spikes in new cases.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=Covid+cases+in+Europe&form=CHRDEF&sp=-1&pq=covid+cases+in+europe&sc=5-21&qs=n&sk=&cvid=1BEBAB01F14D44E09100DB3BCD6D9B7F

Maybe but the recession is over and recovery is steaming ahead, the worst is behind us, while your head in the sand attitudes mean the worst is ahead of you

the worst is ahead of you
with a President Quid you are probably right .

with a President Quid you are probably right .

Nothing could be worse that Trump's inaction for so many months. He even promoted NOT trying to control the virus. At least 80% of the deaths have been indirectly caused by his mismanagement.

On day one, (Jan 20), Biden will immediately initiate effective methods to confront the virus. Biden will do this even in the face of Trump continuing to prevent Biden's team from getting a start on the problem by Trump refusing to cooperate with Biden.

Trump will have a dark legacy of death and suffering.

the worst is ahead of youYou must pay more careful attention. Our third quarter growth was tremendous. Employment gains have been considerably ahead of projections. There is no reason to believe the worst is ahead of us unless Biden does something stupid. I will admit that Biden doing something stupid is practically guaranteed.


At least 80% of the deaths have been indirectly caused by his mismanagement.The experiences of European countries makes that sound ridiculous.

You must pay more careful attention. Our third quarter growth was tremendous. Employment gains have been considerably ahead of projections. There is no reason to believe the worst is ahead of us unless Biden does something stupid. I will admit that Biden doing something stupid is practically guaranteed.

The experiences of European countries makes that sound ridiculous.

In light of current events you're statement is ridiculous! How do you ignore the soaring uptick of sickness and death and say it's getting better?

In light of current events you're statement is ridiculous! How do you ignore the soaring uptick of sickness and death and say it's getting better?It is possible to deal with two thoughts at one time. The economy, I plainly stated, was getting better. The virus situation here, as in many other places, is not, and I have certainly not said otherwise.

That's very true and I can acknowledge two thoughts, but I just see a relationship between the two. I also add the mitigating factors of the stimulus package the congress passed that is running out and another so far absent that helped the economy before, and the previous lockdowns that slowed the virus spread.

I see little choice but to repeat what worked before until a better solution is presented. Vaccines may be many months away and surviving until then would be the priority. At least we can be more hopeful this time around that a solution is at least in sight.

It is possible to deal with two thoughts at one time. The economy, I plainly stated, was getting better. The virus situation here, as in many other places, is not, and I have certainly not said otherwise.

someone put the economy ahead of lives, wonder who that could be?

Anyone who thinks the economy does not affect lives is completely stupid.

And it begins. Pa gov mandates wearing masks, even in your own home.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/pa-gov-announces-new-covid-rules-including-wearing-a-mask-in-your-house

Anyone who thinks the economy does not affect lives is completely stupid.

It is a matter of priorities, lives before the economy, not the economy before lives, if you die from disease the economy is no use to you, this is among many truths that are self evident, and yet they elude many, or maybe just one

Dr. Scott Atlas, a top White House coronavirus adviser, said Monday that Americans should flout public health guidance and gather as normal for the holidays as this may be “the final Thanksgiving” for many.

why do you quote idiots? taking his advice would be a self fulfilling prophecy. No doubt this is the same idiot who has been advising Trump

why do you quote idiots? taking his advice would be a self fulfilling prophecy. No doubt this is the same idiot who has been advising Trump

Scott Atlas is a madman who is leading people to their death. In addition to appearing on the Kremlin TV network, he has Trump's ear who does what Atlas tells him to do.

He needs to be exposed as he spews lies from the White House and endangers the American public. Atlas is one of the strangest figures to emerge from the Trump totally ineffective attempt at governance. Trump's Rasputin.

It is a matter of priorities, lives before the economy, not the economy before lives,But destroying the economy will, in the long run, cost more lives than the pandemic. It is a balancing act. Check out Venezuela if you want evidence for that.

The virus is destroying the economy and wrecking lives, so makes sense to deal with the virus and save lives AND the economy.

The virus is destroying the economy and wrecking livesI don't think the virus is destroying the economy as much as our response to the virus could do so. You can't just shut down everything unless you want everyone to starve, so obviously it's a balancing of priorities. For the five hundredth time, if you look at Europe, where they have been much stricter than us, they are also in the midst of a severe spike. How do you explain that?

Better management! Their spikes are not nearly as immense as ours. Nobody's is. Stop listening to the dufus and the right wing noise machine and read this...

https://www.msn.com/en-au/travel/tripideas/the-latest-wh-task-force-warns-virus-spreading-aggressively/ar-BB1b6YzI

It's our response led by the dufus and repubs that is spreading the virus AND destroying the economy.

Better management! Their spikes are not nearly as immense as ours. Nobody's is. Stop listening to the dufus and the right wing noise machine and read this...Yes they are. I don't listen to Trump just like I don't listen to Biden. They are both unreliable. And I tend to not listen to you because, IN YOUR OWN LINK, it shows your contention about Europe to be wrong. Didn't you read this??? "France surpasses 2 million coronavirus cases, 4th highest in world,." How do you explain that? That are far stricter than we are, and yet they are experiencing a severe spike. How do you explain that????? Or are you so intent on listening to the left wing "noise machine" that you have lost the ability to think for yourself? That's what Is so aggravating about people on this board. You read something which flatly contradicts what you believe, and instead of responding to it honestly, you just blow it off and move on. So again, HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT?????????????

Merkel warns of winter long haul as German COVID deaths soarhttps://www.metro.us/merkel-warns-of-winter/

It's the nature of the virus dude, the more human activity the greater the spike and everybody is worn out. Who wants to be locked down? Nobody, but it's the only tool we have to mitigate the spread. That's evidence based and applies everywhere and either place restrictions or spread sickness and death.

I actually think you had the best solution, cut everybody a personal check to stay home and weather the storm until we have a better solution. You get my vote! 8D

I can't believe I just said that! 8O!

It's the nature of the virus dude,That's what you say now that your contention ("Their spikes are not nearly as immense as ours. Nobody's is.") has been shown to be a false bit of fake news.


I actually think you had the best solution, cut everybody a personal check to stay home and weather the storm until we have a better solution. You get my vote! 8DFirst of all, I have never suggested that. Secondly, it's a terrible idea to spend money we don't have. We need to continue to weather the storm. I don't know of anything else to do. The Europeans tried the extreme measures you seem to prefer and it has not worked. Lastly, if you will vote for me, then I'll vote for you. We might kill each other, but I have no doubt we could do better that most of what I see.

That's what you say now that your contention ("Their spikes are not nearly as immense as ours. Nobody's is.") has been shown to be a false bit of fake news.

WRONG! Or just show me who in the world has more than 100,000 new infections or more than a thousand deaths...a day


First of all, I have never suggested that. Secondly, it's a terrible idea to spend money we don't have. We need to continue to weather the storm. I don't know of anything else to do. The Europeans tried the extreme measures you seem to prefer and it has not worked. Lastly, if you will vote for me, then I'll vote for you. We might kill each other, but I have no doubt we could do better that most of what I see.

Sure you did, and said it would save money over the way those relief packages were structured. Leave it to you to forget a good idea we agree on. Yes the Europeans did the lockdown thing like most everybody else, and like everybody else when they came out the virus was waiting for them. INEVITABLE and PREDICTABLE.

To continue to weather the storm, we have to secure the needs of those that must hunker down, and stop the nuts from NOT hunkering down. Sick people can't work and dead folks can't either so what's your better idea to weather the storm?

I doubt either of us old coots could kill each other without plenty of oxygen tanks handy. What, you think I'll have a heart attack before you do?

WRONG! Or just show me who in the world has more than 100,000 new infections or more than a thousand deaths...a dayI showed you from your own article. I have no idea what else to do. 2 million infections in France, a country many times smaller than us. What else do you want???


Sure you did, and said it would save money over the way those relief packages were structuredI did indeed say that to illustrate the stupidity of our government, but I NEVER suggested we do that. NEVER. It's a terrible idea.


Sick people can't work and dead folks can't either so what's your better idea to weather the storm?Non working people cannot pay taxes to pay for all of these ideas, so where do you think the money will come from?


I doubt either of us old coots could kill each other without plenty of oxygen tanks handy. What, you think I'll have a heart attack before you do?I will admit that it would be close. Very close. The oxygen would indeed be helpful. I would still think that you could be dangerous if I riled you up too much!

Still waiting for YOUR solution. If you got one.

Still waiting for YOUR solution. If you got one.Tough question. I don't know of a good answer. Trying to protect both the economy and the nation's health is a difficult undertaking. I think we will have to emphasize masks and social distancing probably more than we have, and probably work harder on protecting the over 60 crowd which is where the real risk seems to be. "In fact, through November 12, 92 percent of COVID-19 deaths nationwide have occurred among those ages 55 or older. Only 0.2 percent were younger than 25." I might add that looking at those 65 and older would be wise since they are about 80% of the deaths. Young people have little to worry about, so it makes no sense at all to force them to stay at home. Getting a vaccine asap, as Trump has basically done, is the only real answer.

https://www.heritage.org/data-visualizations/public-health/covid-19-deaths-by-age/

Maybe the coronavirus is Mother Nature's way of culling Earth's human herd and returning humanity to an Adam and Eve duo. Then they can kick-start a new human population.

Maybe the coronavirus is Mother Nature's way of culling Earth's human herd and returning humanity to an Adam and Eve duo. Then they can kick-start a new human population.

Have you abandoned the thought that this is part of the judgements of Revelation, in this case, pestilence? Forget nature, how many instances of pestilence have arisen in the last century. The purpose is not to kick start the human population again, that has been tried once, and now we see the result, the second round not being any better than the first, abominations abound. If there is a fresh start creation will take a different path

Have you abandoned the thought that this is part of the judgements of Revelation, in this case, pestilence?
Revelation was written for those suffering under Nero. Yes, there can be extrapolations into the modern age, but be careful with that.

abominations abound. If there is a fresh start creation will take a different path
Well, Mother Nature is doing a pretty great job getting rid of us with pestilences of various sorts, hurricanes, huge forest fires, floods from melting glaciers, et al.

(P.S. My post above about a new Adam and Eve was tongue in cheek.)

Revelation was written for those suffering under Nero. Yes, there can be extrapolations into the modern age, but be careful with that.

Well, Mother Nature is doing a pretty great job getting rid of us with pestilences of various sorts, hurricanes, huge forest fires, floods from melting glaciers, et al.

(P.S. My post above about a new Adam and Eve was tongue in cheek.)

John was a little later than Nero in the context of Revelation, since we have been in the last days since Biblical times various judgements have been delivered through the ages and will culminate soon

John was a little later than Nero in the context of Revelation
John was about 92 when he wrote it (if, indeed, he was the author). Nero (37-68 A.D.) ruled Rome from 54 A.D. until his death by suicide 14 years later.The manner of Nero's death corresponds with the prophecy of Revelation 13:10. Our pastor said Revelation was written in code, and that code has never been deciphered.

John was about 92 when he wrote it (if, indeed, he was the author). Nero (37-68 A.D.) ruled Rome from 54 A.D. until his death by suicide 14 years later. The manner of Nero's death corresponds with the prophecy of Revelation 13:10. Our pastor said Revelation was written in code, and that code has never been deciphered.

If the "prophecy" refers to Nero then it is history. So let us dispel one untruth, Revelation does not prophesy the death of Nero since Nero was long dead when John wrote Revelation. Since you cast doubt of the authorship , testified by John himself, undoubtedly you doubt the authorship of other parts of the Bible, perhaps the Gospel of John itself.. You would do well to check your references verse 10 of Chapter 13

10 “If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity they will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword they will be killed.” don't see how this could refer to Nero but then it is in "code" and more likely refers to the dispersal of the Jews in 132 AD

Our pastor said Revelation was written in code, and that code has never been deciphered.Kind of hard to imagine how anyone could know that Revelation was written in code when they then admit they cannot decipher the code. At any rate, that view is held by very nearly no one, so with all due respect for your pastor, that is what amounts to a old pastor's wives' tale. There is literally no good reason at all to believe it, or at least none that I've ever heard of.

“The Trump team has prepared legally required transition memos describing policy challenges, but there are no discussions about actions they could take or pause. Instead, the White House is barreling ahead. A second official tells CNN their goal is to set so many fires that it will be hard for the Biden administration to put them all out.”
https://politicalwire.com/2020/11/18/trump-tries-to-box-in-biden-by-setting-fires/

The officials are, of course, unnamed. Is that surprising? Rumor mill stuff.

I don't know! All those lawsuits and clown antics by the dufus lawyers...the ones that are still there look like trying to start a fire to me. Trying to throw out the black vote is a sure fire starter.

Trying to throw out the black vote is a sure fire starter.I guess it was just a matter of time before that accusation was raised. Do you have any evidence, or is this just a baseless charge?

I don't make baseless charges.

Do you have any evidence, or is this just a baseless charge?One or the other, my friend. One or the other.

Revelation does not prophesy the death of Nero since Nero was long dead when John wrote Revelation.

That's called a "postdiction" - a prophecy after the event. In code in this case.

a prophecy after the event. In code in this case.A prophecy after the event in some supposed code that no one understands or can explain? Hmmm. I never ceased to be amazed at the strange things people will believe to avoid simply believing the Bible.

A prophecy after the event in some supposed code that no one understands or can explain? Hmmm. I never ceased to be amazed at the strange things people will believe to avoid simply believing the Bible.
I'm a preterist.

I'm a preterist.

I had to look that up. Now I'm one, too. For Revelation. I wonder how many of us there are? Two, at least. I think we should march somewhere. Do you do banners?

I had to look that up. Now I'm one, too. For Revelation. I wonder how many of us there are? Two, at least. I think we should march somewhere. Do you do banners?
Yes, there are more of us. Interesting you should ask about banners! I just bought about ten yards of plain cotton-polyester that I plan to cut and dye. Any special design(s) you want on them?

I have no idea how anyone can say the final two or three chapters of Revelation have already taken place. It is utterly impossible unless you want to take the approach that Revelation is some sort of unknown, mysterious code, for which there is simply no evidence whatsoever. No early church father is on record as saying that Revelation is a coded work, or at least as far as I know that does not exist. If it does, perhaps someone could make reference to it, and by that I mean quotes and references.

Everyone is a partial preterist. Daniel, for instance, is partially fulfilled as are many of the OT prophecies concerning Jesus, Isaiah 53 being a good example of that. But to suggest that all of Revelation, or all of Matthew 24 have already taken place is really a stretch. It simply cannot be true, for instance, that the New Jerusalem of the 21st chapter has already come to pass.

I'm a preterist.

so you believe it has already happened and we are in the post millenium of Jesus reign are you a Jehovah's Witness and follow the other concepts of Charles Taze Russell

Tell me when were the waters of the Earth poisioned in the last two thousand years? when did we get a huge meteor shower? why are we still suffering pestilence? why have we had two thousand years of destructive wars? it all should have stopped centuries ago

so you believe it has already happened and we are in the post millenium of Jesus reign are you a Jehovah's Witness and follow the other concepts of Charles Taze Russell
Nope! JWs aren't the only Christians who believe this.

Tell me when were the waters of the Earth poisioned in the last two thousand years? when did we get a huge meteor shower? why are we still suffering pestilence? why have we had two thousand years of destructive wars? it all should have stopped centuries ago
Why stopped? And where in Revelation is mention of the horrible fires in the US West? And what about the melting ice caps and climate change (because of man's destructive ways) and animals becoming extinct?

Nope!

Why stopped? And where in Revelation is mention of the horrible fires in the US West? And what about the melting ice caps and climate change (because of man's destructive ways) and animals becoming extinct?

Just because something isn't specifically mentioned doesn't invalidate the argument, In Revelation huge fires are mentioned and the dying, what does 666 mean if not the impact of man. I think you should read it for yourself, because you have already quoted one verse out of context and are obviously sucked into the opinions of one person. Remember you believe it is a code, what is a code but veiled references

Jesus millenial reign is a time of peace

what is a code but veiled referencesNot in the sense she's using it. It would be more like a letter written by one spy to another where certain words have specific meanings known only to them. It's really a shame her pastor told her that, but I suppose she has never checked it out for herself.

Just because something isn't specifically mentioned doesn't invalidate the argument, In Revelation huge fires are mentioned and the dying, what does 666 mean if not the impact of man. I think you should read it for yourself, because you have already quoted one verse out of context and are obviously sucked into the opinions of one person. Remember you believe it is a code, what is a code but veiled references

Jesus millenial reign is a time of peace
I've studied Revelation in college and with several different pastors and lay teachers. I am a preterist.

Yes, there are more of us. Interesting you should ask about banners! I just bought about ten yards of plain cotton-polyester that I plan to cut and dye. Any special design(s) you want on them?

How about 12-12-12 in big numbers? That would be code for doubling down on 666. The fundies will love it.

Not in the sense she's using it. It would be more like a letter written by one spy to another where certain words have specific meanings known only to them. It's really a shame her pastor told her that, but I suppose she has never checked it out for herself.

yes some people believe the Davinci Code too doesn't make it true

yes some people believe the Davinci Code too doesn't make it true
What??? It's not true???

Very true. Speaking of Clete's DvC comment.

yes some people will believe anything, they even believe the Quoran

I don’t have much trouble with different ideas as long as the person can give some rational reason for believing them. Now why we should believe Revelation is written in code?

Now why we should believe Revelation is written in code?
Since Christians were being persecuted by Rome at the time, John coded it so that only those familiar with Jewish history would make the connection.

I understand that is your contention. Now what evidence is there of that? Did, for instance, any of the early church fathers mention that idea?

John was imprisoned on an island, why did he need a code to record his visions. The exposition on the seven churches is not a code unless he was speaking of the great falling away we see today, every church going its own way

So far we have John writing about the church in Nero's time, but after Nero's death, prophesying abut events which had already taken place, and writing in a code which no one knows and for which there is no evidence. So you can see why there exists some skepticism?

some skepticism?

What we have here is taking some prophesies of Jesus which were fulfilled and turning it into an excuse to say the prophesies of John referred to the same events and have been fulfilled, and what does this mean? It means we are now licensed to do whatever

I'm not even sure we have that. "I've studied Revelation in college and with several different pastors and lay teachers." Well, OK, but can that person explain why she believes that Revelation is code, or why she believes the prophesies of Revelation have all been fulfilled?

I'm not even sure we have that. "I've studied Revelation in college and with several different pastors and lay teachers." Well, OK, but can that person explain why she believes that Revelation is code, or why she believes the prophesies of Revelation have all been fulfilled?
She did already in this thread.

Revelation almost didn't make the cut. It is one of the most controversial, complicated, and esoteric books in the New Testament canon. Chiliasm (the belief that Christ will return to earth in visible form and establish a kingdom to last 1000 years, after which the world will come to an end) was part of the controversy.

Oh? What post was that?

Oh? What post was that?
Surely you jest.

When you were gnashing your teeth, I added more to my post #94.

Forget it. Everything has to be a joke to you. If you posted evidence, you would simply say, "Post xx". You haven't, and so you can't. You haven't because you don't have any. So until you can, find someone else to be evasive with.

Forget it. Everything has to be a joke to you. If you posted evidence, you would simply say, "Post xx". You haven't, and so you can't. You haven't because you don't have any. So until you can, find someone else to be evasive with.
If you stopped with the nastiness and insults, I'd be more than glad to comply. And if you took the time to wander back in this thread just a bit, you'd see my post that you're crabbing about.

Sure you would. Sure I would. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sure you would. Sure I would. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Read up on chiliasm.

Nope. If you have, then post it. Let's hear your own explanation. After all, you studied Revelation, and you know, so if you do, put it down.

You don't, so you can't. Besides, you have, according to you, already posted your defense. So why would I need to go and look something up when the explanation is on this board?

We just need to part ways. It always goes like this.

You make a statement.
"Can you support that idea?"
"I already have."
"Oh? Where?"
"It's on this board somewhere. Look for it."
"If I knew where it was, I wouldn't ask you for it."
"Go on the internet and look up blah blah blah."
"But where is the evidence you said you posted?"
"Oh, you're being ugly, so now I'm not going to say."

And on and on it goes.

Nope. If you have, then post it. Let's hear your own explanation. After all, you studied Revelation, and you know, so if you do, put it down.
I did. Read back in this thread.


you already posted your defense. So why would I need to go and look something up when the explanation is on this board?
Because that's what we all do. I defined chiliasm in this thread, and, if you want more information about it, you'll have to look it up.

a fancy way of saying you believe in something few do

a fancy way of saying you believe in something few do
I'm not a chiliast. In fact, I don't even care for chili!

I'm not a chiliast. In fact, I don't even care for chili!

and yet you say you know what it means????

ball of confusion temptations - - Video Search Results (yahoo.com) (https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=AwrCmmu6NLtf_EEAlQEPxQt.;_ylu=Y29sbwNi ZjEEcG9zAzEEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Nj?p=ball+of+confusion+t emptations&fr=yhs-iba-syn&hspart=iba&hsimp=yhs-syn#id=1&vid=592dd03139af5e7785431d645d2d1560&action=view)

and yet you say you know what it means????
Yes. I defined it in an earlier post. (I was being silly talking about chili.... hmm, I could write a poem about this....)

Yes. I defined it in an earlier post. (I was being silly talking about chili.... hmm, I could write a poem about this....)

or a limerick

there was a chiliast from Chile
who one day said I fancy some chili
but this chiliast didn't know
the millenium hadn't happened yet
and that was quite a blow

lousy limerick last line has to rhyme with chili and the 3rd line with the 4th

there was a chiliast from Chile
who one day said I fancy some chili
but this chiliast didn't know
and that was a blow
that the limerick had become silly

I think we all have waayyyyy too much free time on our hands.

I did. Read back in this thread.I rest my case.

I rest my case.
*sigh* post #94:
"Revelation almost didn't make the cut. It is one of the most controversial, complicated, and esoteric books in the New Testament canon. Chiliasm (the belief that Christ will return to earth in visible form and establish a kingdom to last 1000 years, after which the world will come to an end) was part of the controversy."

lousy limerick last line has to rhyme with chili and the 3rd line with the 4th
Here's mine:
There once was a chiliast named Billy
Who dearly loved his mom's chili.
He decided to freeze some
To bring to the millennium,
And no one thought he was silly.

here's mine:
There once was a chiliast named billy
who dearly loved his mom's chili.
He decided to freeze some
to bring to the millennium,
and no one thought he was silly.


the winnah and still champion - wonder girl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Revelation almost didn't make the cut. It is one of the most controversial, complicated, and esoteric books in the New Testament canon. Chiliasm (the belief that Christ will return to earth in visible form and establish a kingdom to last 1000 years, after which the world will come to an end) was part of the controversy."So THAT'S your evidence that Rev. was written in code??? It doesn't even mention a code, so I can see why you were so hesitant to post it. It is basically an admission that you overstepped by a large margin.

No wonder you sighed. I would have too.

So THAT'S your evidence that Rev. was written in code???
You had asked more recently for a definition of chiliasm -- although as I read back in this thread, you didn't say specifically what you wanted, but did make a point to continually berate me.

You are a Christian fundamentalist, so you must believe Revelation is predicting the End Times. Have you read the Left Behind series by Timothy LaHaye?

You had asked more recently for a definition of chiliasm.No, I didn't. I asked for evidence for a code. In fact, if you will look at your post 94, you will see plainly that it is a reply to that very question in my post 93. "Well, OK, but can that person explain why she believes that Revelation is code, or why she believes the prophesies of Revelation have all been fulfilled?"

Sigh. You've answered neither question, and instead posted an answer for a question no one asked. Strange, but not unexpected.

Like I've said before, the honorable act would be to simply admit you don't have any evidence and move on.

You are a Christian fundamentalist, so you must believe Revelation is predicting the End Times. Have you read the Left Behind series by Timothy LaHaye?I'm not a Christian fundamentalist. I don't read material like Left Behind.

I have not berated you, but I have challenged you to be honest. You say I asked for a definition of chilaism, but then add to your comment to basically say I did not. That's what I'm talking about. If you don't have evidence for your code theory, then why not just admit you don't have it instead of pursuing the silliness of insisting that you had already posted it when plainly you had not?

If you don't have evidence for your code theory, then why not just admit you don't have it instead of pursuing the silliness of insisting that you had already posted it when plainly you had not?
Why was Revelation written, and why did it almost not make it into the canon?

Revelation has a wide variety of interpretations. I'm a preterist, understanding it as simply historical, written with code names and words that its early readers understood. I am not a futurist, understanding the book as a prophetic view about what will happen in the future.

I understand all of that. You have said it several times now, and you are certainly welcome to your position. I have no idea why you believe that, but you are entitled to believe what you will.

I would think the why of Revelation would be pretty clear. The Apostle John is in exile on a small island and has an incredible vision of Jesus, of heaven, and of the future. Nothing else short, I suppose, of Daniel or Isaiah can match it's depth of revelation, so quite naturally it was written. In fact, John was commanded to write it. Now a person can say that John was drunk, or depressed, or even psychotic, but he clearly did not see it that way. I can find no reason at all to suppose it was written in code, nor do I see any reason to suppose it was written after the events it describes. In fact, that would seem to be an absurd position, as would be the suggestion that someone other than John wrote the book at some point in the second century. But if you can explain why a person should believe that, then I'm all ears. Just please, please don't tell us that you have already done so because you absolutely have not.

I was waiting for the other shoe to drop....

Never give JL a shoe to beat you over the head with.

Never give JL a shoe to beat you over the head with.Learn to be accurate and honest.

Learn to be accurate and honest.

...Or get beat upside the head?

Like you frequently do to me? 8D

Only when you're NASTY.

We have an old saying here that I imagine you have heard. "Don't pxss in your boot, pour it on my head, and then try to tell me it's raining." That's where I am with a lot of this. If you make a point that you can't support, then just admit it. Not a big deal. But try and tell me it's raining??? That does not go well.

No evidence is good enough for you, and you tend to get nasty and dismissive when you don't agree with someone. Can't you just disagree and leave it at that?

You should assume that people are peeing on your head on purpose...maybe it is raining. We're just conversating, not invading your backyard and stealing the lawn furniture.

No evidenceSo far that is what has been presented.


and you tend to get nasty and dismissive when you don't agree with someone. Can't you just disagree and leave it at that?You mean like you do?

I enjoyed my turn to bash the powers that be at the time.

so you think that the contributors here are the powers that be?

Do you feel I have bashed you personally?

Do you feel I have bashed you personally?Do I really need to go back to the "head up the Dufus's arse" comments, or would you rather stop the silliness and just be honest? I'm not going to go back and comb your hundreds of past comments, and I'm not worried about it, but yeah, you have been personal in the past. We've bashed each other some. Not so much recently, but in the past.

As for me "bashing" someone, I don't think asking a person to be honest and open rather than evasive is bashing. When a person wants to say she has answered a question when both of us know she has not, then to point it out is just part of a discussion to me, and not so much "bashing". To treat a person like an intelligent, accomplished adult fully capable of rational discussion just does not strike me as bashing, but I will try and temper my comments with greater kindness in the future. I am aware they do not come across frequently as I intend them to do. I do not mind you calling me to task, but for you to try and portray yourself as "Mr. Objectivity" on this board would seem to be quite a stretch.

I have my biases like everybody else but you wingers get my goat sometimes. Especially YOU with your incessant insistence of "evidence" while having none of your own. Now if you think it's okay to be on the attack then best be ready to get it back and then some. I was hoping that the dufus getting booted out the WH would move you to extricate your head from his arse or at least stop kicking when someone grabs your ankles to pull you free, so I try to give you space for that, but you're right I'm not the most objective, though I do try, but what do you expect when you talk crazy and act NASTY?

PS.

My query was directed at Clete.

My query was directed at Clete.


I wasn't really responding to you tal but to jl but the question still stands do you think the contributors here are the powers that be?

I understand Tal. No one likes it when we get our mail read.

you really want to be critical of someone else “talking crazy and acting nasty”? Hmmm.

I wasn't really responding to you tal but to jl but the question still stands do you think the contributors here are the powers that be?

Naw, just a bunch of folks with opinions and points of view.


I understand Tal. No one likes it when we get our mail read.

you really want to be critical of someone else “talking crazy and acting nasty”? Hmmm.

Yep! Can't handle the heat................!

Yep! Can't handle the heat................!Oh, sometimes you can. Don't be too hard on yourself.

Making the dufus a one term president made the kitchen a much cooler place. Getting rid of his cult of sycophants and butt kissers is a breath of fresh air. No time to celebrate though as cleaning up the mess of another repub prez won't be that easy for ole Joe, as the dufus has already started to pardon the turkeys while he dithers with the sickness and death ravaging the country.

In the meantime, you have the sterling displays of Covid character from the Calif. gov and the Denver mayor to "boast" of. Both dems, I might add. As to the rest, we'll see whether you choose to fit into the "cult of sycophants and butt kissers" yourself. When your "ole Joe" starts to mess up, as he will, then your response will be interesting.

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone this morning. We certainly have much to be thankful for.

In the meantime, you have the sterling displays of Covid character from the Calif. gov and the Denver mayor to "boast" of. Both dems, I might add. As to the rest, we'll see whether you choose to fit into the "cult of sycophants and butt kissers" yourself. When your "ole Joe" starts to mess up, as he will, then your response will be interesting.

Such actions by elected leaders is despicable and to much like repubs who I have railed against. Yes it will be interesting to see if Joe can toe the line with consistent discipline and empathy and good orderly direction when he actually takes office.

Have a happy safe holiday everyone and yes we should all be grateful despite the situation as it is.

. Yes it will be interesting to see if Joe can toe the line with consistent discipline and empathy and good orderly direction when he actually takes office.

.

already you are expressing doubts of the ability of your beloved leader and he hasn't even struck the first blow

I'm a realist and don't put humans on pedestals nor ignore the enormity of the challenge we face or the dufus screwing stuff up in his final days.

Trump has said he will accept the electoral college vote so just the formalities and it is over, but Trump might withdraw all american troops from Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Yemen, and anywhere else their presence is no longer welcome. I wonder what traps he has lain for the unwary

"In his long list of harmful decisions to address, President-elect Biden
should start by restoring Utah’s Bears Ears and Grand-Staircase national monuments (https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2017/12/trump-shrinks-bears-ears-grand-staircase-escalante-national-monuments/) — eviscerated and reduced by 85 and 50 percent respectively at the behest of extraction-obsessed Utah politicians. He’ll need to reinstate protections for Alaska’s long-held-inviolate Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (opened to leasing and drilling) (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/17/climate/alaska-oil-drilling-anwr.html) and the irreplaceable Tongass old-growth temperate rainforest (released to logging) (https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2020/10/28/trump-tongass-national-forest-alaska/). The new president will have to once again close marine sanctuaries to commercial fishing."
https://thehill.com/opinion/energy-environment/526816-ending-trumps-transactional-arrogance-on-our-public-lands

"In his long list of harmful decisions to address, President-elect Biden
should start by restoring Utah’s Bears Ears and Grand-Staircase national monuments (https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2017/12/trump-shrinks-bears-ears-grand-staircase-escalante-national-monuments/) — eviscerated and reduced by 85 and 50 percent respectively at the behest of extraction-obsessed Utah politicians. He’ll need to reinstate protections for Alaska’s long-held-inviolate Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (opened to leasing and drilling) (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/17/climate/alaska-oil-drilling-anwr.html) and the irreplaceable Tongass old-growth temperate rainforest (released to logging) (https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2020/10/28/trump-tongass-national-forest-alaska/). The new president will have to once again close marine sanctuaries to commercial fishing."
https://thehill.com/opinion/energy-e...r-public-lands (https://thehill.com/opinion/energy-environment/526816-ending-trumps-transactional-arrogance-on-our-public-lands)Who did this statement originate with?

sounds like Biden will destroy livlihoods

He’ll need to reinstate protections for Alaska’s long-held-inviolate Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (opened to leasing and drilling) (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/17/climate/alaska-oil-drilling-anwr.html) and the irreplaceable Tongass old-growth temperate rainforest (released to logging) (https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2020/10/28/trump-tongass-national-forest-alaska/). A definite over-reaction. Drilling on Alaska's North Slope has clearly shown that oil and gas production can nicely coexist with protecting wilderness areas. The amount of land affected is so relatively small that it is negligible. As to the Tongass, the directive is not going to result in stripping the Tongass of all old-growth wood. The directive actually involved the building of logging roads and not the harvesting of timber. The amount of wood cut, which has been going on for decades, is not anticipated to increase. "Even though 9.2 million acres of inventoried roadless areas would be freed from the roadless rule, only 185,000 acres would be added to the areas that may be considered for timber harvest, the Forest Service said.Overall harvest projections remain at 17,000 acres of old growth and 11,800 acres of young growth over the next 100 years, levels envisioned in the 2016 Tongass land management plan.
"The proposed rule does not change the projected timber sale quantity or timber demand projections set out in the Tongass Forest Plan," the Forest Service said in the documents. "The alternatives examine different mixes of land areas and timber restrictions that would incrementally increase management flexibility for how the forest plan's timber harvest goals can be achieved, but does not fundamentally alter the plan's underlying goals or projected outcomes."
The Forest Service also said it's not changing its most recent conclusion that an annual harvest of 45 million board feet of timber from the Tongass is "reasonable, conservative, and based on the best available information."

https://www.eenews.net/stories/1061400273

yes there is much misinformation on environment issues, the green lobby doesn't want a tree cut, a mine, or a well anywhere

yes there is much misinformation on environment issues, the green lobby doesn't want a tree cut, a mine, or a well anywhere
I've been to many national parks and public lands in our beautiful western states and don't want oil rigs and big trucks and fracking between and among the breathtaking arches and spires and in the canyons have moved in.

I've been to many national parks and public lands in our beautiful western states and don't want oil rigs and big trucks and fracking between and among the breathtaking arches and spires and in the canyons have moved in.I'll bet you've never been to Tangass or ANWR. Very few people have. Managing national resources doesn't mean you never cut a tree down or bore a hole. It means exercising common sense so that those lands adequately serve a number of purposes.

Managing national resources doesn't mean you never cut a tree down or bore a hole. It means exercising common sense so that those lands adequately serve a number of purposes.
Managing natural resources doesn't mean cutting them down and drilling them out, meanwhile despoiling the land. Have you ever been to Bryce or Zion or the Grand Canyon? (I can hear you now, "Oh, look at this enormous hole -- perfect as a landfill!")

Managing natural resources doesn't mean cutting them down and drilling them out, Of course it does. National forest are logged frequently. One of the problems we are having in the west is the forests that are never logged end up with a lot of dead wood either standing or on the ground, and burn like a furnace when fires start. It is actually good for forests to manage them properly. And if there is oil or gas under fed land, why on earth would we not get it? It is done with very little disruption to the landscape. It is certainly much less disruptive that those windmills and solar panel farms that are being put up. Are you against those as well?

It is just your kind of waayyyy over the top environmentalism that we need to avoid like the plague.


Have you ever been to Bryce or Zion or the Grand Canyon? (I can hear you now, "Oh, look at this enormous hole -- perfect as a landfill!")No one is suggesting we log the GC. It is national forests that are primarily in discussion. Are you getting your arguments from AOC?

The last time you went to the North Slope of Alaska, did you notice the oil wells and pipelines???

Let's be practical and examine the real time market forces on drilling the North Slope, starting with this

Alaska Ballot Measure 1, North Slope Oil Production Tax Increase Initiative (2020) - Ballotpedia (https://ballotpedia.org/Alaska_Ballot_Measure_1,_North_Slope_Oil_Productio n_Tax_Increase_Initiative_(2020))

and considering the market forces that stopped the drilling in the first place.

Alaska Journal | ConocoPhillips to resume drilling in December (https://www.alaskajournal.com/2020-11-19/conocophillips-resume-drilling-december)


The price for Alaska North Slope crude averaged $16.55 per barrel in April, according to the state Revenue Department. Oil prices have rebounded since and are generally stable in the $40 per barrel range .

As noted in the article the dufus drill baby drill policy may not be the policy going forward, since the dufus got booted.