it's the Jacobins . Robespierre whipped them into a frenzy and they guillotined everyone who opposed them . Eventually they guillotined Robespierre also . Think Gotham when Bane took control of the city ........"We take Gotham from the corrupt! The rich! The oppressors of generations who have kept you down with myths of opportunity, and we give it back to you... the people. Gotham is yours. None shall interfere. Do as you please. Start by storming Blackgate (Bastille ), and freeing the oppressed(the dope from Park Slope emptying Ryker's ) ! Step forward those who would serve. For an army will be raised. The powerful will be ripped from their decadent nests, and cast out into the cold world that we know and endure. (Kangaroo) Courts will be convened. Spoils will be enjoyed(looting ) . Blood will be shed. The police will survive, as they learn to serve true justice(defund ) . This great city... it will endure. Gotham will survive!"

......or they could be the American Taliban .Leftists take out Democrats. Progressives take out liberals. Socialists take out progressives , and soon socialists will be taken out by hard leftists, Communists, anarchists, and nihilists. Only Antifa will emerge as pure. The moderate Dems including Quid Pro Joe are having a collectiveapology conga line for their past centrism, in fear of being politically guillotined. It is reported that Sandinista Bill had to answer to his daughter for his white privilege. Kamala Harris is bowing to All Out Crazy's agenda ,including the green new deal and apologizing for he past support for tough and necessary law enforcement . The Clintoons had better watch their back . They fail on multiple counts on the new purity test .
The Taliban destroyed history in an effort to purge Afghanistan culture so it can easily absorb their ideas of what a pure Afghan society should be . This week a statue of a confederate officer was knocked down in Kentucky who later became a US Army General after the war and became a great friend and advocate of Blacks and he even supported the suffragette movement . But you know ,he did not pass that purity test . So if he is forever condemned then Quid Pro Joe should also be condemned forever for his support of legislation that put thousands of minorities in jail ...... right ?

Tom, I have no doubt there are many who don't pass the purity test, not sure I would although I have never been a slave owner of fought in ultra conservative causes, but there is no doubt there are many who will not forgive the mistakes of history because they have skin in the game that we do not. For them, it is personal, no matter how many generations have passed. Whether the race be jew or African, or some other persecuted minority injustice will never be paid for until they can subject others to the same vile deeds.

As One Australian Senator reminds the Parliament; "all lives matter" because it is justice that must be available to all, let us remember that the actions of a few deserve condemnation but the whole community must not pay the price

There are and always will be a group that wants something and willing to go to extremes to get it, but you wouldn't have to hear about black lives matter if you truly believed all lives matter. It's like the words of the founding documents all men were created equal except slaves and other low class people. Changes have been made and more to come. You know the old saying...pay me now, or pay me (MORE) later...and the interests builds. You don't have to listen though, but you won't ignore, or dismiss.

Antifa is but the latest whipping boy to compare others we don't like too, and for sure they are dangerous nuts. Where's Batman when you need him? Who broke the bat signal?

Bat signal, fantacy won't get you out of this one, there is no Superman upholding the american way and shouting about truth and justice. Not sure he would want to

Dreams are the American way Clete, as are the nightmares of the loonies.

"all lives matter" Clete this comment disqualifies you in purity test

There are and always will be a group that wants something and willing to go to extremes to get it, but you wouldn't have to hear about black lives matter if you truly believed all lives matter. It's like the words of the founding documents all men were created equal except slaves and other low class people. Changes have been made and more to come. You know the old saying...pay me now, or pay me (MORE) later...and the interests builds. You don't have to listen though, but you won't ignore, or dismiss.

Antifa is but the latest whipping boy to compare others we don't like too, and for sure they are dangerous nuts. Where's Batman when you need him? Who broke the bat signal?
Antifa proved my point by occupying a part of Seattle and putting up the equivalent of the French revolutionaries 'Barricades ' .
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2020/06/11/the-autonomous-zone-in-seattle-is-a-harbinger-of-americas-future-if-politicians-dont-start-working-together/#2eb7e26e73f8
From what I am hearing they are extracting tribute from local businesses in the occupied areas which makes them pirates . You know my answer .... as Napoleon said ...'give em a whiff of grape shot '. Why should they be treated better than the Branch Davidians ?

https://www.foxnews.com/us/seattle-protests-armed-guards-local-businesses-extortion

Wonder why nobody has called 911? Kind of strange, but states rights prevail. Leave it to them. The next election will straighten this out. One way or another.

The Seattle police abandoned their precinct . No it is not a state matter if the state is unwilling or unable to control insurrection . The Constitution is clear . The role of the Federal government is to 'insure domestic tranquility and to provide for the common defense . American citizens inside the so called 'autonomous zone ' are being held against their will and are being forced to pay tribute at the point of a gun . I could defeat these panty waists in 1 hr. Just cut off internet access to their cell phones.

They are in for the long haul . They planted a garden .
https://i.postimg.cc/nz2k7j7w/image.png

"all lives matter" Clete this comment disqualifies you in purity test

Yes I don't see the point of pandering to 3% of the population, but it is different in your case, you don't live in a national park populated with special cases. You have a legacy that we don't have, our experience is different and therefore I don't see why we should be caught up in this hysteria when all lives matter here. We are not over policed, every person has some sort of income and health care, so I don't see how your purity test applies unless it is that I can say you fail mine

I don't care too much either . I just think it is hilarious when they start eating their own like the Jacobins did when they eventually offed Robespierre because he could not pass the purity test . Take the latest example . Fiery liberal Dan Abrams had a great idea. He would host a reality show that would show what police work was really about . He is the son of civil rights lawyer Floyd Abrams and his progressive credentials are indisputable . His show 'Law and Crime ' was a smash hit on A&E and reached the top cable show in 2019 .His newest show Live PD was must see tv. It followed police doing their job for a half hour and the 2nd half hour was spent analyzing the police action . What they did right and /or wrong was openly aired . It was what everyone says they want ....transparency . It spoke an unspoken truth ;that cops are humans .It showed on live cam how tough their job is . But in the wake of the Floyd killing ,no show about cops can survive the pc world . We are living in a cancel culture and the left is calling all the shots . No cop show can survive. I don't even think McGruff the crime dog survives this Maoist cultural purge .

yes we have had those cops shows here too where cops from various countries do their thing and none were shown killing anyone but real life is different to reality TV, not that cops often kill anyone here but it does happen and we will get a riot if that person happens to be black, but world wide riots, it just shows the power of the media. It just shows the power of gun legislation as black people are unlikely to be armed here and so we don't have black on black killing

Comes down to how the law is applied and obviously the protests here are about the unequal application of the law and the racism at the root of it. Racism is also at the heart of the economic impacts on all peoples that are suppressed, oppressed, and exploited for profits. Not so much about race but class so it's no surprise we have those on both fringes getting attention for their radical antics and actions, rather than focusing on the issues involved that raise all boats.

Comes down to how the law is applied and obviously the protests here are about the unequal application of the law and the racism at the root of it. Racism is also at the heart of the economic impacts on all peoples that are suppressed, oppressed, and exploited for profits. Not so much about race but class so it's no surprise we have those on both fringes getting attention for their radical antics and actions, rather than focusing on the issues involved that raise all boats.

In order to raise all boats first you must possess a boat, but when the one you have is leaky at best, you concentrate on bailing rather than fixing the leak, after your boat has sunk, as it has for so many in this pandemic, you get a violent response as all the anger is focused and race seems to be the focus. Minneapolis seems to be progressing to an interesting outcome, abandoning the traditional police force model, I will watch these developments

Over the years many cities have used this different policing model to good success as a way to improve the trust between the cops and community by actually having a vested relationship between them. Local networks work better than private fiefdoms.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/the-city-that-actually-got-rid-of-the-police/ar-BB15nJ8B?ocid=msedgntp

yeah the big lie about Camden . My village could not afford a police force . So first it got rid of the police and their salaries and pensions and contracted with the county Sherriff Dept . That caused a dispute between the county and the township our village is in so now we pay the town the fee we paid the sheriff .We did not get rid of policing . We just shifted the responsibility around . We still get police protection and we still pay taxes for that purpose.

The misguiding headline suggests they 'got rid' of the police force Technically that is true . But that doesn't justly tell the story When my village could no longer afford it's own police force ,it outsourced policing to the county sheriff and township my village is in. It was budgetary concerns .Just like my village ,all they did was shift the burden around . No longer controlled by the primarily minority leadership of Camden City ;they shifted the responsibility to the county and state officials .The new force was called the Camden County Police Department (CCPD).The force level increased and the latest technology was introduced ,funded by Federal Grants and county taxes . NO Camden did not get rid of police .What they really did was subcontract the policing work to cops who now commute into the city instead of living there . 90 % of the city is minority . The police chief is white and there is only one black captain of the force out of seven.

But has it been a success ?

Camden ranks 10th nationwide in the most dangerous cities in America.
https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/blog/top100dangerous
And is in fact the most dangerous city in NJ.
https://patch.com/new-jersey/cherryhill/heres-most-dangerous-city-new-jersey
Besides that , the main reason crime dropped in Camden (besides nationwide trends) was that policies promoted by Christie led to population decline and gentrification in Camden. Less public housing ,less Section 8 housing and yes those community based policing initiatives . Those include those widely reported barbeques etc . They also include those police beat downs that don't make it into those articles with an agenda .
https://www.inquirer.com/news/inq/complaints-rise-under-camden-police-20150425.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKef9hgOFio

Oh yeah and violent crimes in Camden get reclassified as non-violent at the country level .

So yes it is true that the CCPD has improved community relations with the people of the city . But that is only one side of the coin.

In order to form a more perfect union....takes years, decades, and centuries. A lot of tries, failures, adjustments and baby steps.

In order to form a more perfect union....takes years, decades, and centuries. A lot of tries, failures, adjustments and baby steps.

a forelorn hope, no union will be perfect and at times it has been obvious that the idea of a union may not be what the people want

The point is you keep striving to improve, learning from what works well, and what doesn't. It's a process not an event. In the past much blood was shed when some didn't want a union...they lost.

The point is you keep striving to improve, learning from what works well, and what doesn't. It's a process not an event. In the past much blood was shed when some didn't want a union...they lost.

yes and freedom lost that day despite the fact that many became free, the union was far from perfect in fact it was fractured and maybe it has never healed

tal is right . a perfect union is utopian . a more perfect union is a goal .

yes and freedom lost that day despite the fact that many became free, the union was far from perfect in fact it was fractured and maybe it has never healed

Some say that the military part ended, but the social war is still being waged.

Some say that the military part ended, but the social war is still being waged.

i think that is very apparent

Well maybe ALL the military stuff has not ended.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/tulsa-police-slammed-after-video-shows-handcuffing-2-black-teens-n1229806

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/tulsa-police-new-video-from-a-witness-shows-arresting-teens-for-jaywalking/ar-BB15uuhd

We have many militias here and cops all armed and ready to rock.

Well maybe ALL the military stuff has not ended.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/tulsa-police-slammed-after-video-shows-handcuffing-2-black-teens-n1229806

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/tulsa-police-new-video-from-a-witness-shows-arresting-teens-for-jaywalking/ar-BB15uuhd

We have many militias here and cops all armed and ready to rock.

Yes undoubtedly there are too many on both sides

Only cops here have qualified immunity though, and a unions behind them. Others have stand your ground, which is the same thing in practice, and everybody uses fear for my life. Killing made legal in most cases, as well as other cruelties and atrocities. I mean young kids being terrorized and brutalized by the badge crowd, for jaywalking down a street with no sidewalks.

as well as other cruelties and atrocities. I mean young kids being terrorized and brutalized by the badge crowd, for jaywalking down a street with no sidewalks.

Agreed.

Cops murdering blacks is obviously not that common, but it exists as the whole world witnesses those videos. It should make us all wonder what bad cops did when videos were not available - like for the last many, many years.

What is just as worrying are the "other cruelties and atrocities" you mentioned. The ones never seen by the public and that are a daily occurrence. The "good" cops share the blame as they remain silent when their brother cops act badly. The Blue Wall of Silence is a criminal reality.

They didn't believe how brutal racists were until we got the images in our living rooms in the 60's from the south. That was a whole century after the end of slavery. I know everybody has heard of the Tulsa Massacre (https://www.blackpast.org/african-american-history/tulsa-race-riot-1921/), and the heyday of the KKK and the acknowledgement and support they got from local, state, and federal governments (https://allthatsinteresting.com/ku-klux-klan-march-on-washington), yes even in the "liberal" north.

Those rare and isolated encounters with cops by black people are a constant source of near death experiences, abuse, death and jail, and since it takes years and decades for change and I think the generations have seen a shift in just how much cruelty, abuse, and atrocities we're going to take. Trust me minorities are as tired of living it as the majority is seeing and hearing about it. Your rare and isolated is a stark reality.

Next tell me racism and lynchings were rare and isolated events. Yeah right. Pearl Harbor and 9/11 were rare and isolated events. So are abortions rare and isolated events. School shootings, rare and isolated events. The Civil War was a rare and isolated event! I suppose whatever peeve you have is a rare and isolated event. Funny how rare and isolated events can change a lot of lives so profoundly, especially when caught on tape and you're sitting in your living room.

Right now the cops are just the focal point of the outrage people feel and have felt for CENTURIES about a lot of stuff, so I think maybe you should rap your heads around something being done about the festering wound that has been ignored for a long time that this virus has just ripped the band-aid off of. Our whole socio-economic system has been exposed in every area possible for the inequality that has rendered EVERYTHING useless. Instead of the business as usual make America great again crap, we should be making America better than we were. NORMAL ain't cutting it for everybody.

here is how Sandinista Bill decided to make NYC better . He disbanded the special crimes unit . What was the special crimes unit ? Well they were the elite trained cops . They went out into the city in plain clothes and actually caught crime in the act instead of having to wait to respond to a 9-11 call. How successful were they ? Very . When Times Square was a sewer of crime with routine murder and muggings ; cops were deployed visibly on horse back .Their presence alone was a deterrence because they could look over the crowded streets and see potential criminals . They would alert the special crime officers who were mingled in with the crowd and they would converge . Sometimes nothing would happen .Often as mentioned they would be there as a crime happened . It was that effort that made Time Square a safe place for New Yorkers and tourists to be . Crime dropped ;murder dropped .

So what has happened in the short time since Sandinista Bill has eliminated their presence ?

Shootings are surging this week in New York City, with 28 incidents and 38 victims reported since Monday — the day the NYPD disbanded its plainclothes anti-crime unit, The Post learned on Friday.
By comparison, the same week last year there were only 12 shootings for the entire week.

https://nypost.com/2020/06/19/nyc-shootings-surge-after-nypds-anti-crime-unit-disbanded/?fbclid=IwAR1-NtAq7m7omlFG1DWHSpoWoSovx00Jzu1zmCav3IsRFpn_0M1jCF mHSwM


There have been 97 shootings this month so far, compared to 89 for the whole month of June last year.

https://nypost.com/2020/06/15/nypd-disbands-anti-crime-unit-after-disproportionate-number-of-shootings/

Seems they will still have those plain clothes cops Tom, just some of the "special trained" ones will be reassigned, I suspect younger guys. Not saying whether this is good or bad, or just different but there were a lot of complaints that don't seem to have made the news so we'll see if this spike in violent crimes is a long term trend or a hot summer week in the big city.

The unit has had a history of high-profile shootings and deaths and, year-over-year, the cops in the patrol account for more than half of police-involved shootings, according to NYPD’s annual discharge reports.

it is very simple . They are there when the crime is happening . Not 5-10 minutes later responding to a 9-11 call that a crime is happening . So of course they are more involved in violent encounters . All those alleged abuses and all the article cited is the Garner choking death .That and one accidental blue on blue killing .

it is very simple . They are there when the crime is happening . Not 5-10 minutes later responding to a 9-11 call that a crime is happening . So of course they are more involved in violent encounters . All those alleged abuses and all the article cited is the Garner choking death .That and one accidental blue on blue killing .

You certainly make it sound simple and clear cut Tom, you usually do, but I've been reading that this isn't the only time a cop unit has been disbanded and reformed and seems to be a go to tactic during controversial times.

https://time.com/5854015/nypd-anti-crime-unit-george-floyd-protests/


The anti-crime unit took on many of the duties of the former Street Crime Unit, which was closed in a largely symbolic move after it was hit with a racial profiling lawsuit and four of its officers killed Guinean immigrant Amadou Diallo in 1999 in a barrage of 41 shots.In its pursuit of illegal guns, the anti-crime unit relied heavily on stopping and frisking people without justification. A federal judge ruled in 2013 that the practice violated the civil rights of minorities.
You gotta do something until the protestors go home and that may not be soon.

the cops in the patrol account for more than half of police-involved shootings, according to NYPD’s annual discharge reports.So cops on the beat are more likely to discharge their pistols than cops doing paperwork? Who would have thought that would not have been the case? Am I missing something there?


You gotta do something until the protestors go homeDemocracy by intimidation. Doesn't sound appealing to me.

So cops on the beat are more likely to discharge their pistols than cops doing paperwork? Who would have thought that would not have been the case? Am I missing something there?

What a screwball statement.


Democracy by intimidation. Doesn't sound appealing to me.

You don't have to listen if you don't want to, but somebody better, because the protestors don't seem to be going home. Hard to ignore a group that size that have gotten peaceful yet persistent. In addition I don't think they care about what appeals to anybody but what is driving them now. So regardless of what you may think, they clearly have had enough crap.

Can you hear that yet?

What a screwball statement.I thought it was as well. Why did you post it?


You don't have to listen if you don't want to, but somebody better, because the protestors don't seem to be going home. Hard to ignore a group that size that have gotten peaceful yet persistent. In addition I don't think they care about what appeals to anybody but what is driving them now.Like I said, they are attempting to practice democracy by intimidation. I'm willing to listen, but listening has to be a two-way street.


So regardless of what you may think, they clearly have had enough crap.So the question now pertains to when will the rest of American look at their antics and decide we have also had just about enough.

the unit was looking for perhaps the worse serial rapist in NYC history a guy named Isaac Jones who had over 50 rapes/assaults attributed to him . He just happened to live in the same neighborhood as Diallo ;one of the city’s most crime-ridden neighborhoods..... and Diallo fit his description .Diallo made a living by street peddling bootleg videos .

The four cops also were briefed that night about a rash of shootings in the neighborhood, including the murder of a livery cabdriver.

Officers Sean Carroll and Edward McMellon got out of the car, identified themselves as police, and asked Diallo to stop . And that is where the tragedy should've ended with Diallo doing what the cops instructed him to do . Bad things are going to happen if you run away when police tell you to stop . That act alone puts the cop's safety at risk. Did I tell you that besides illegally selling videos on the streets ,he was also an illegal alien who had filed a false asylum claim? So yeah he did not want to get arrested .He ran up the stairs and the 4 cops went in pursuit. He was told to show his hands and instead he reached into his pocket and pulled out his wallet ;which in the silhouette the cops mistook for a gun. One of the cops ,McMellon fired 3 times at Diallo ,probably disabling him. But as circumstances had it ,bullets ricocheted McMellon tripped and fell breaking his tail bone . His fellow officers thought he had been shot .That is why the barrage of bullets followed .
All the cops were found not guilty . Yes it was a tragedy . But it does not negate all the good the unit did for the city . Previously it was reconstituted because Mayors like Bloomy saw the value in crime prevention. Sandinista Bill doesn't .He thinks law enforcement is the problem.

Bad things are going to happen if you run away when police tell you to stop . That act alone puts the cop's safety at risk.

Running away from cops puts the cops' safety at risk?


Did I tell you that besides illegally selling videos on the streets ,he was also an illegal alien who had filed a false asylum claim?

No, you didn't tell us. What in the world does that have to do with the final outcome?


the cops mistook for a gun. One of the cops ,McMellon fired 3 times at Diallo ,probably disabling him. But as circumstances had it ,bullets ricocheted ...... etc., etc., etc.............................his tail bone . His fellow officers thought he had been shot .That is why the barrage of bullets followed .All the cops were found not guilty .

Tomder, do you seriously believe the story would have been as you described (with cops the only witnesses) if a video had been available of the confrontation? I doubt it.

I can't speculate about what a video would show . Neither should you. A jury absolved all the cops . And yes ,running from cops puts the cops in danger . Without resisting then the 4th amendment protections against unreasonable force is clear cut . Resisting arrest now puts the cop in a position to have to decide how much violent force is reasonable . Do you think Cops don't get hurt chasing a suspect down? The cop who would like to make it how to their families now have uncertainty about how far the suspect will go to resist . You know what else puts cops at risk ? Emptying Ryker's prison puts cops and civilians at risk . And catch and release like Sandinista Bill does puts cops at risk.

BTW ;over 20 shootings in NYC in the last 24 hours . wtg Sandinista Bill !!! you a$$Wipe !!

I can't speculate about what a video would show . Neither should you. A jury absolved all the cops . And yes ,running from cops puts the cops in danger . Without resisting then the 4th amendment protections against unreasonable force is clear cut . Resisting arrest now puts the cop in a position to have to decide how much violent force is reasonable . Do you think Cops don't get hurt chasing a suspect down? The cop who would like to make it how to their families now have uncertainty about how far the suspect will go to resist . You know what else puts cops at risk ? Emptying Ryker's prison puts cops and civilians at risk . And catch and release like Sandinista Bill does puts cops at risk.

BTW ;over 20 shootings in NYC in the last 24 hours . wtg Sandinista Bill !!! you a$$Wipe !!

Ok - I'll give you the cop safety thing about running. I was thinking that the bad guy was also in danger - he might have gotten two in the back.

No, I don't know what a video would show. I was speculating. What I DO know is the Soundview section of the Bronx. I also know the cop culture in the Bronx - many of the guys I grew up with in the Bronx became cops. They were a mixed lot and the stories they told in the local bars after work about working in Harlem and Bed-Stuy and 138th St & Willis Avenue (South Bronx) were not designed to encourage or even recognize racial justice.

The story then was the black cops were worse than the white cops, tougher on their own.

Maybe now is the time for long-needed change to start.

Shooting someone in the back or 41 times everywhere tends to get old.

Yes but it is an old form of murder

2 shot 1 dead in the occupied territory of Seattle CHAZ/CHOP . 1st responders from Seattle police tried to help . They were prevented from going in by the occupiers . The victims were thrown into a car and driven to the hospital No doubt the Chaz security will investigate the incident and bring the murderer to justice .

Utopia meets reality.

They were prevented from going in by the occupiersJust beyond belief. This is all thanks to the cowardly democrat mayor and gov. If JB was there, he would be handling it the same way.

Let the locals handle it! Conservatives are always fired up about how libs deal with their local issues so no surprise here. Better than confronting your own incompetence with the conservative governance you visited on the country.

By all means let the locals handle it, but replace them when they are as cowardly and incompetent as what exists in Seattle.

By all means let the locals handle it, but replace them when they are as cowardly and incompetent as what exists in Seattle.

That's for the locals to decide.

Yes it is.

Let the locals handle it! you mean the local residents who are trapped behind the barriers ? Was it 'let the locals handle it ' when Federal troops were deployed in Little Rock Arkansas to enforce desegregation ?

you mean the local residents who are trapped behind the barriers ? Was it 'let the locals handle it ' when Federal troops were deployed in Little Rock Arkansas to enforce desegregation ?

Go ahead then. Send in the feds. Not like the dufus hasn't threatened too. Talk is cheap.

I would support it .

Think the locals would too?

the ones being help hostage ? maybe .

CHAZ /CHOP wants to be Chi-town . Another shooting ;another blocking of first responders from entering .

https://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/seattle-police-try-to-respond-to-another-shooting-inside-autonomous-zone/?fbclid=IwAR0Hww41FdQrXEfn-nRpJq6gBahqO-U-kVG9iyOxzKkTpTcQTbn3NGllMqk

In CHAZ/CHOP and Chi-town Black lives don't matter

https://abc7.com/chicago-shooting-this-weekend-news-in-60-shot/6259880/

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EaylbEgWoAEK3o5?format=jpg&name=900x900

Meanwhile shooting here in NY spiked over the weekend too. Captured Perps arrested on gun charges were set free under Sandinista Bill's catch and release program . " We have over 1,000 people that have been indicted on a gun-possession charge, where the cases are open, and they are walking around the streets of New York today,” said NYPD Chief of Crime Control Strategies Michael LiPetried

so the thought police now think that Mary Poppins is a racist movie. Julie Andrews and D+ck Van Dyke and the chorus don black face on the roof top scene . As they exit the Banks house the help use racial slurs against them including calling one of the chimney sweeps a Hottentot .

Shocking! Imagine a chimney sweep in black face.

https://twitter.com/PolitiKurd/status/1275156623317745669?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1275156623317745669&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fpjmedia.com%2Fnews-and-politics%2Fbryan-preston%2F2020%2F06%2F22%2Fvideo-young-venezuelan-woman-warns-america-where-destroying-statues-leads-n564632

Shocking! Imagine a chimney sweep in black face. some idiot professor wrote an editorial about this in the Slimes .
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/28/movies/mary-poppins-returns-blackface.html

Today or yesterday a statue of Miguel de Cervantes author of Don Quixote was vandalized in San Francisco . Cervantes was not rich and much of his fame came after his death . . But his life even without his work as an author is a worthy tale to tell . He was not a slave holder . In fact for a 5 year period he was held as a slave by the Ottomans . Paradoxically Cervantes wrote “Freedom ...... is one of the most precious gifts that heaven has bestowed upon men; no treasures that the earth holds buried or the sea conceals can compare with it; for freedom, as for honour, life may and should be ventured; and on the other hand, captivity is the greatest evil that can fall to the lot of man.” For that his statue was defaced .
https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/s960x960/105427254_10158384731263908_5669272045724862859_o. jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_sid=110474&_nc_oc=AQnx-VOeotSdMq-kcHuXjKN6zZ9L7EYmINv-x3_eR-dQs3Ryph_IcOlOhLJ5Q1cwIQA&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&_nc_tp=7&oh=cbb82909288fbc8cecee4ab46a9c33ac&oe=5F169C47

Darn subscription ended! Why are you surprised that some loony vandalized a statute? You know good and well half the country is bonkers and probably has nothing to do with politics or anything rational. Not everything is a deep state conspiracy, most are the machinations of NUTS!

This just shows the idoicy of the BLM supporters, by the way I believe all lives matter, which means I am anti-slavery, anti-discrimination and in favour of freedom for all

This just shows the idocy of the BLM supportersThat is something to consider.

That is something to consider.

Consider this, public disorder is not the way to effect change

This just shows the idoicy of the BLM supporters, by the way I believe all lives matter, which means I am anti-slavery, anti-discrimination and in favour of freedom for all

Vandalizing a statute has nothing to do with BLM, no more than looting has to do with protestors. Can't tell the difference? Then you will never understand until Black Lives Matter, you can never say ALL lives matter. I'm in favor of all those good things you listed too Clete, but there seems to be a lot who don't which makes for a PROBLEM.


Consider this, public disorder is not the way to effect change

Remember the Boston Tea Party?

This just shows the idoicy of the BLM supporters, by the way I believe all lives matter, which means I am anti-slavery, anti-discrimination and in favour of freedom for all

BLack Lives Matter was never intended to mean ONLY black lives. It refers to the treatment of blacks by police violence and brutality. People who promote "All Lives Matter" in opposition do not understand the point of BLM. There is NO opposition.

Jackson, btw, was a notorious "Indian hater" during a time when anti-Indian feeling was common among settlers since they wanted the Indian lands. They believed in their "destiny" being "manifest". Jackson, however, was Hitler-like in his treatment of the southeast Indian communities. Long before the present business, Jackson's genocidal activities were a disgrace to the nation.

Vandalizing a statute has nothing to do with BLM, no more than looting has to do with protestors. Can't tell the difference? Then you will never understand until Black Lives Matter, you can never say ALL lives matter. I'm in favor of all those good things you listed too Clete, but there seems to be a lot who don't which makes for a PROBLEM.

The real problem is the way people behave and they do so for a reason and the colour of a person's skin is only a small part of it, it is culture. Black and white culture is different. It is so there and it is so here




Remember the Boston Tea Party?

Yes a demonstration against a minor tax and there the matter should have ended

Yes a demonstration against a minor tax and there the matter should have ended

But it didn't, did it? It ultimately resulted in the independence of the United States of America.

But it didn't, did it? It ultimately resulted in the independence of the United States of America.

I know you guys are caught up in the glories of that event, but really you were hard pressed to beat a few thousand red coats. And what do we have to show for it 250 years later? more civil disobedience, so maybe the lesson didn't take

you were hard pressed to beat a few thousand red coats. Learn your history. There were several tens of thousands of British troops involved not to mention 20 to 30 thousand Hessians. So no, it wasn't a "few".

It's not Clete's history to learn. It's ours.

they get more every time the story is told

It's not Clete's history to learn. It's ours.




Yes, it is. I hope you both learned something from my post. It's one of my goals in life to help the unlearned Aussie.

Yes, it is. I hope you both learned something from my post. It's one of my goals in life to help the unlearned Aussie.



unlearned? how many degrees and fellowships do you have? one of my goals in life is to help the uneducated yanks

Then you might want to try posting information that is true. In this case, the only uneducated one was the Aussie.

Then you might want to try posting information that is true. In this case, the only uneducated one was the Aussie.

while there were many thousands of British troops and allies they were spread out fairly thin, remember Britain was fighting a wider war and you would not have succeeded without the opportunist French, and you had the differences of loyalty to deal with also. The revolution was not the populist cause you imagine but the British could not mount a decisive campaign

many thousands of British troopsFinally got it right, though you did not bother to mention the 20 thousand Hessian troops also here to fight for the Brits. Refer to the Battle of Trenton.

Finally got it right, though you did not bother to mention the 20 thousand Hessian troops also here to fight for the Brits. Refer to the Battle of Trenton.

yes King George brought in mercenaries afterall the British army was not large and was overcommitted, but there wasn't strong loyalty between the red coats and the hessians, You were also lucky the french didn't insist on a military takeover as the price for their assistance

So should you be glad that we did not insist on a military takeover of Australia as the price of our assistance in World War 2?

Read this statement by Charles Darwin last night. I suppose the mobs will begin pulling his statues down and removing all references to him from our textbooks. "According to the laws of natural selection, the European race will emerge as the distinct species homo sapiens, and all the transitional forms - the gorilla, the chimpanzee, the Negro, and the Australian Aborigine - will be extinguished in the struggle."
Hard to imagine a more racist perspective than that one. If we plan on pulling down statues of Grant, Jefferson, and Washington, then what on earth should be done with Darwin?

It ain't easy correcting the record for accuracy is it? Maybe we should have done that before we tagged them with the hero label and stuck their images on pedestals, and immortalized them by naming stuff after them.

I still say we have to pull down every reference of Margaret Sanger ;including organizations and institutions she started :

The object of civilization is to obtain the highest and most splendid culture of which humanity is capable. But such attainment is unthinkable if we continue to breed from the present race stock that yields us our largest amount of progeny. Some method must be devised to eliminate the degenerate and the defective; for these act constantly to impede progress and ever increasingly drag down the human race. This is especially the case in the nations which have reached the highest degree of civilization, for it is just in these nations that the degenerate and defective are enabled to produce the largest number of progeny.(A Better Race Through Birth Control By Margaret Sanger)


“The most successful educational approach to the Negro is through a religious appeal. We don’t want the word to get out that we want to exterminate the Negro population, and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members.” (Margaret Sanger commenting on the 'Negro Project' in a letter to Gamble, Dec. 10, 1939).

"While I personally believe in the sterilization of the feeble-minded, the insane and syphilitic, I have not been able to discover that these measures are more than superficial deterrents when applied to the constantly growing stream of the unfit. They are excellent means of meeting a certain phase of the situation, but I believe in regard to these, as in regard to other eugenic means, that they do not go to the bottom of the matter." ("Birth Control and Racial Betterment," Feb. 1919, The Birth Control Review).

[The government should] “give certain dysgenic groups in our population their choice of segregation or sterilization.”(Sanger “A Plan for Peace” (1932))

“Eugenics is the most adequate and thorough avenue to the solution of racial, political and social problems.” (Margaret Sanger, April 1933 Birth Control Review. )

I think we do well to be aware of folks that think like this, and keep our guard up and stay vigilant to others that believe in such arbitrary controls. I can see science advancing and giving us better options for human health and well being but for now I can live with patients and doctors having the choice of choosing their options.

I just ain't for burning books just yet Tom, guess I've seen to many horror movies of that type of society. Right now we seem to stuck on truth in history and the statues that it spawned. Personally I would watch all the actions we take especially from the loony extremist fringes on both sides. That is how we got a lot of those statues in the first place.

I just ain't for burning books just yet Tom,just toppling statues ?
Erasing history and banning thought is what totalitarians do

I go back to my accuracy comments from before. I always thought there was a lawful orderly process to address some of this stuff. Everything seems so emotionally driven all of a sudden.

I go back to my accuracy comments from before. I always thought there was a lawful orderly process to address some of this stuff. Everything seems so emotionally driven all of a sudden. yup a town board voting to remove a monument as opposed to mob rule . Or I heard another one yesterday that stuck with me . Rising civilizations build monuments ;declining ones tear their monuments down.

I just ain't for burning books just yet Tom,Are we supposed to be happy that you haven't yet decided that we need to burn books?

Are we supposed to be happy that you haven't yet decided that we need to burn books?

Why would I even care that a right wing sourpuss with a bad memory is happy or not about anything, let alone my opinion?


yup a town board voting to remove a monument as opposed to mob rule . Or I heard another one yesterday that stuck with me . Rising civilizations build monuments ;declining ones tear their monuments down.

I can see us declining, or at least leaning way over in the wrong direction.

a right wing sourpuss with a bad memorySo you're a right winger now? Well that's a surprise.

I don't identify as one, but recognize them when I see, or hear them.

now the anarchist nihilist mob is tearing down statues of abolitionist heroes who died trying to end slavery .
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/local/wisconsin/2020/06/24/hans-christian-hegs-abolitionist-statue-toppled-madison-what-know/3248692001/

Can't tell a loony from a criminal, from a reasonable lawful citizen anymore.

Can't tell a loony from a criminal, from a reasonable lawful citizen anymore.The reasonable lawful citizens are the ones NOT tearing down statues, not cursing and spitting at cops, and NOT burning stores. They might be peacefully protesting, but that's as far as they take it.

We agree on something finally.

Happy days are here again!

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/104830017_2114914311986105_8159912213407881701_n.j pg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_sid=110474&_nc_oc=AQmr0J9pG8AczS7dE7COUFSQ5neBWwAi5fYLoz1B5iB R7-gXSH1aGHFYud2pvnmDBTQ&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=1863f6d09abbaaecea6b0bec8ce0c6a2&oe=5F1AFC7D

Read this statement by Charles Darwin last night. I suppose the mobs will begin pulling his statues down and removing all references to him from our textbooks. "According to the laws of natural selection, the European race will emerge as the distinct species homo sapiens, and all the transitional forms - the gorilla, the chimpanzee, the Negro, and the Australian Aborigine - will be extinguished in the struggle."
Hard to imagine a more racist perspective than that one. If we plan on pulling down statues of Grant, Jefferson, and Washington, then what on earth should be done with Darwin?

A clear confirmation that you are a racist. You tried to hide it by couching the Darwin comment as a "racist perspective", but we know better, don't we?

You just happened to be reading Darwin last night, and you just happened to see the quote, and you just decided to show the quote in its lurid detail without omitting a word. Do you think anyone believes you?

A clear confirmation that you are a racist. You tried to hide it by couching the Darwin comment as a "racist perspective", but we know better, don't we?Now that's real intelligence at work. Darwin said something, so I'm a racist. Have you always been this confused?


You just happened to be reading Darwin last night, and you just happened to see the quote, and you just decided to show the quote in its lurid detail without omitting a word. Do you think anyone believes you?Yeah. I was reading last night. You ought to try it sometimes. And yeah, when I read, I see material. Isn't that amazing!! I was not reading one of Darwin's works. I was reading Reflections on the Existence of God. The author had that quote by Darwin, so I posted it here. Stop wetting your pants every time someone takes a breath. It is possible to simply make a rational, logical objection that can be responded to. Give it a shot.

It's like I said earlier. Discussing something with you is like talking to a four year old. "Oh! You quoted Darwin, so you're a racist. And we don't believe that you posted a quote by Darwin! We think you made it all up!! Oh! Oh!"

Good grief. Calm down.

Here it is in context. "At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace throughout the world the savage races. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes [that is, the ones which look most like the savages in structure] ... will no doubt be exterminated. The break will then be rendered wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state, as we may hope ... the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as at present between the negro or Australian and the gorilla."

Whatever antagonism Darwin had against slavery — which was indeed considerable, given his dissenter upbringing — these too are his words. Whatever grandiose statements he made on behalf of the beauty of moral sympathy, these too are his words. And these words could not be more clear. "According to the laws of natural selection, the European race will emerge as the distinct species homo sapiens, and all the transitional forms — the gorilla, the chimpanzee, the Negro, and the Australian Aborigine — will be extinguished in the struggle."

https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/culture/catholic-contributions/charles-darwin.html

And from the author I was reading. https://richardesimmons3.com/why-do-we-value-human-life/

Here it is in context. "At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace throughout the world the savage races. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes [that is, the ones which look most like the savages in structure] ... will no doubt be exterminated. The break will then be rendered wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state, as we may hope ... the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as at present between the negro or Australian and the gorilla."

Whatever antagonism Darwin had against slavery — which was indeed considerable, given his dissenter upbringing — these too are his words. Whatever grandiose statements he made on behalf of the beauty of moral sympathy, these too are his words. And these words could not be more clear. "According to the laws of natural selection, the European race will emerge as the distinct species homo sapiens, and all the transitional forms — the gorilla, the chimpanzee, the Negro, and the Australian Aborigine — will be extinguished in the struggle."

Repeating the quote doesn't absolve you from your race beliefs - just gives you another chance to promote your evil. The tactic is transparent, easy to see.

Repeating the quote doesn't absolve you from your race beliefs - just gives you another chance to promote your evil. The tactic is transparent, easy to see.It finally occurred to me that you think I'm Charles Darwin! Oh my. You're much worse off than I thought. Try and get some sleep. Maybe it'll help.

It finally occurred to me that you think I'm Charles Darwin! Oh my. You're much worse off than I thought. Try and get some sleep. Maybe it'll help.

Just repeating the tenets of Darwinism is enough to place you in his camp. Darwinism spawned nazism and that sought of thinking still exists despite evidence to the contrary

Just repeating the tenets of Darwinism is enough to place you in his camp. If you try to discuss someone's thoughts, then you agree with them? That's the stupidest thing I've heard in a long time.

It finally occurred to me that you think I'm Charles Darwin!

No, we know exactly who and what you are.

As 'clete said, "Just repeating the tenets of Darwinism is enough to place you in his camp. Darwinism spawned nazism and that sought of thinking still exists despite evidence to the contrary".

And as I replied to Clete, to try and say that quoting a person is tantamount to agreeing with them is just completely stupid. For example, you quoted me saying, "It finally occurred to me that you think I'm Charles Darwin." Well according to your weird proposition, you have just agreed with me and thus you actually do believe I'm Darwin. So I suppose I should thank you for verifying what I had said!! It was very nice of you. Now I know that was not your intent, but it is the inevitable consequence of your own idea.

You need to figure out that I'm under no obligation to accept your wild theories or your blind opinions of "who and what" I am. I don't think you even believe them. You're just so eaten up with hate that you feel compelled to lash out. There is a solution for that.

! It was very nice of you.
.

Yes I'm actually a nice bloke and good of you to recognise it. But right now I'm recovering for cataract surgery and so my thoughts maybe a little drug affected. When you take on someoneelse's thoughts to further your argument, either way, you are aligning yourself with them. I didn't see you denying Darwinism as valid

And as I replied to Clete, to try and say that quoting a person is tantamount to agreeing with them is just completely stupid. For example, you quoted me saying, "It finally occurred to me that you think I'm Charles Darwin." Well according to your weird proposition, you have just agreed with me and thus you actually do believe I'm Darwin. So I suppose I should thank you for verifying what I had said!! It was very nice of you. Now I know that was not your intent, but it is the inevitable consequence of your own idea.

I have no idea what all that is supposed to mean. You'd be better off ignoring posts that you can't reply to coherently.


You're just so eaten up with hate that you feel compelled to lash out.

Your "hate" schtick is so common that just about everybody here has been charged by you with hating something. It's time for you to come up with something new to avoid being a one-trick pony.

When you take on someoneelse's thoughts to further your argument, either way, you are aligning yourself with them. I didn't see you denying Darwinism as validI quoted Darwin, noted that his views were racist, and wondered why people were not trying to tear his statues down and take his teachings out of textbooks. I don't know how much clearer it could have been, and I have no idea what argument of mine you think I was trying to "further". But I've been in that "surgical cloud" before, so I do get that.


I have no idea what all that is supposed to mean. And thus we see the problem. Try reading it slowly and very carefully.


Your "hate" schtick is so common that just about everybody here has been charged by you with hating something. It's time for you to come up with something new to avoid being a one-trick pony.You're copying again. Surprise us one of these days and have an original idea. But I'm relieved to see that you quoted me, so you obviously believe everything I am saying since, according to you, that's how it works in your world.

I quoted Darwin, noted that his views were racist, and wondered why people were not trying to tear his statues down and take his teachings out of textbooks. I don't know how much clearer it could have been, and I have no idea what argument of mine you think I was trying to "further". But I've been in that "surgical cloud" before, so I do get that.

You didn't need to quote him to ask the question, we were obviously well versed in his theories

Must be a lot of racists stuff out there if we haven't gotten around to all of them yet.

You didn't need to quote him to ask the question, we were obviously well versed in his theoriesSure you were.

You're copying again. Surprise us one of these days and have an original idea. But I'm relieved to see that you quoted me, so you obviously believe everything I am saying since, according to you, that's how it works in your world.


More confusion from you. Now you're replying to the wrong people.

Well, you quoted me again, so in your crazy world you are agreeing with me that you have no original ideas. After all, that's how you say it works.

Well, you quoted me again, so in your crazy world you are agreeing with me that you have no original ideas. After all, that's how you say it works.

Do you really think your silly ad hominem posts are believed by anyone on this website? Even if they could decipher them?

You're the one who came up with the loony idea that if you quote someone, it means you agree with them. If you don't like it, then change your ways. It's your loony idea that I'm illustrating. And look up the definition of ad hominem so you can use it correctly next time.

You're the one who came up with the loony idea that if you quote someone, it means you agree with them.

Go back and read the context - try to comprehend.


And look up the definition of ad hominem so you can use it correctly next time.

LOL. You never even heard of the word until I first mentioned it months ago describing your method of using insults in lieu of logical arguments. Thanks for the laugh.

LOL. You never even heard of the word until I first mentioned it months ago describing your method of using insults in lieu of logical arguments. Thanks for the laugh.In other words, you misused the word. You find that instance of "months ago" since, once again, you are lying.

once again, you are lying.

Ah, true to form. Grazie.

Ah, true to form.You sure are.

You sure are.

That's it? Running out of steam?

Nope. Your lying just keep going.

Nope. Your lying just keep going.

That makes no sense. You ARE running out of steam.

It would be interesting to compare your statements against my "lies".

I'd be happy to. Let's start with my supposed statement from months ago where I didn't know what "ad hominem" meant. Can you point that out?

I'd be happy to. Let's start with my supposed statement from months ago where I didn't know what "ad hominem" meant. Can you point that out?

I have far better ones. Keep watching this site.

So just another lie. Sad.

For those that need to know about systemic racism.

https://www.justsecurity.org/70507/white-supremacist-infiltration-of-us-police-forces-fact-checking-national-security-advisor-obrien/ (https://www.justsecurity.org/70507/white-supremacist-infiltration-of-us-police-forces-fact-checking-national-security-advisor-obrien/)

https://popculture.com/trending/news/fbi-white-supremacist-us-police-department-infiltration/

For those that need to know about systemic racism.

https://www.justsecurity.org/70507/white-supremacist-infiltration-of-us-police-forces-fact-checking-national-security-advisor-obrien/ (https://www.justsecurity.org/70507/white-supremacist-infiltration-of-us-police-forces-fact-checking-national-security-advisor-obrien/)

https://popculture.com/trending/news/fbi-white-supremacist-us-police-department-infiltration/

It is just another way of saying racist, to a minority every thing is racist

For those that need to know about systemic racism.

https://www.justsecurity.org/70507/white-supremacist-infiltration-of-us-police-forces-fact-checking-national-security-advisor-obrien/ (https://www.justsecurity.org/70507/white-supremacist-infiltration-of-us-police-forces-fact-checking-national-security-advisor-obrien/)

https://popculture.com/trending/news/fbi-white-supremacist-us-police-department-infiltration/

I wonder why some people here find such a simple search so difficult? When these people continue asking what is systemic racism and refuse to do a simple search as you have done, they are telling us who they are and what they really believe.

I wonder why people here cannot answer simple questions? Is it that you actually have no idea of what you're talking about? And links to some site called "Popculture.com" is not impressive. No, I'm not going there.

Here's some systemic racism for you.

Black model gets fired from agency after proudly attending pro-Trump conference

https://thegrio.com/2018/11/07/black-model-fired-pro-trump-conference/?fbclid=IwAR1HSV8myKT7sNF7ZXVBJ-1unQ-b5tPrET-LI9t3E8UIv_nHAgn36gMYNvY

I wonder why people here cannot answer simple questions? Is it that you actually have no idea of what you're talking about? And links to some site called "Popculture.com" is not impressive. No, I'm not going there.
Try this site and look at the 25 charts), from https://www.businessinsider.com/us-systemic-racism-in-charts-graphs-data-2020-6the-employment-population-ratio-measures-the-share-of-a-demographic-group-that-has-a-job-and-its-been-lower-for-black-people-for-years-1

***It's called "systemic (http://www.aclrc.com/forms-of-racism)" racism because it's ingrained in nearly every way people move through society in the policies and practices at institutions like banks, schools, companies, government agencies, and law enforcement.

The resulting data show that these disparities exist along nearly every facet of American life, including employment, wealth, education, home ownership, healthcare, and incarceration.***

Your link doesn't work.


***It's called "systemic (http://www.aclrc.com/forms-of-racism)" racism because it's ingrained in nearly every way people move through society in the policies and practices at institutions like banks, schools, companies, government agencies, and law enforcement.Those are the kind of simplistic statements that should concern all of us. For instance, black men are more likely to be jailed. That sounds like some kind of racism until you factor in that black men are also more likely to commit crimes. And do you suppose that could be the result of absent fathers? So I'm all for looking at these issues so long as it's done in an honest and thorough manner.

Your link doesn't work.
It's easy to google....

Those are the kind of simplistic statements that should concern all of us. For instance, black men are more likely to be jailed. That sounds like some kind of racism until you factor in that black men are also more likely to commit crimes. And do you suppose that could be the result of absent fathers? So I'm all for looking at these issues so long as it's done in an honest and thorough manner.
A black man was recently killed by police when dancing as he walked along, headphones on, listening to music. A black man was shot by white "vigilantes" while jogging. A black man was shot and killed by police after he fell asleep at a Wendy's driveup. Had those been white men, would they have been killed for dancing while walking or jogging or sleeping in a fast-food driveup? It's apparently not good to be black while shopping or driving or picnicking or birdwatching or sitting in your front yard or watching tv in your living room.

no it is an appauling state of affairs but when you have a two race nation problems are sure to occur

no it is an appauling state of affairs but when you have a two race nation problems are sure to occur
We aren't a two-race nation.

We aren't a two-race nation.

one race is vocal enough to make you wonder

A black man was shot by white "vigilantes" while jogging.Would you be happy if he had been shot by black people?


A black man was shot and killed by police after he fell asleep at a Wendy's driveup. You mean after he got up, resisted arrest, stole one officer's taser, took off running, and fired the taser at one of the officers??? You see why I said we need to discuss these issues in an honest fashion?

You failed to mention the 7 thousand or so black people murdered every year by other black people. Oh, I forgot. You don't care about them. Is it because there's no political advantage to be gained by their deaths?


It's apparently not good to be black while shopping or driving or picnicking or birdwatching or sitting in your front yard or watching tv in your living room.Thank you for illustrating the mistake of simplistic views of this subject.

You failed to mention the 7 thousand or so black people murdered every year by other black people. Oh, I forgot. You don't care about them.
.

Now why would that happen, do you think? White on white, white on black, black on black, black on white. it is all killing and each one no more desirable than the other. No blacks when killed by whites are a special case

No, blacks killed by cops is the issue. Nobody is disputing or happy with black on black crime, largely gang violence, fed by poverty and racists policy and practices over decades.*

*Verifiable personal attack deleted in the interest of HONEST discussion!

No, blacks killed by cops is the issue. Nobody is disputing or happy with black on black crime, largely gang violence, fed by poverty and racists policy and practices over decades.*

*Verifiable personal attack deleted in the interest of HONEST discussion!

You know Tal if blacks decided they would not kill another black the crime rate would drop and cops would have less need to fear the next black man they encounter has a gun, but in reality the problem is cops carrying guns and cops trained to use deadly force. Surely not every cop needs a side arm

Every cop does have a side arm and they are trained not to just kill but serve and protect. The real issue if people would listen is nobody looks at why they kill, or why they keep it such a secret when they do kill. Why it gets covered up and swept under the rug, and if mistakes are made why aren't there any actions taken for justice at all. That's the issue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Elijah_McClain

Too many cases like this should disturb anybody. All that other stuff is but a distraction from THIS ISSUE. 3 cops against a skinny 130 pound guy?

You know Tal if blacks decided they would not kill another black the crime rate would drop and cops would have less need to fear the next black man they encounter has a gun, but in reality the problem is cops carrying guns and cops trained to use deadly force. Surely not every cop needs a side arm.Clete, that's a great point. Tal will reject it since it does not fit his "killer cops" narrative, and since it would require an acceptance of personal responsibility and discipline, both of which are not popular subjects for liberal dems, but it has FAR more potential for good than any other crime related action which could be taken.

How come you don't demand cops be responsible and discipline when dealing with black people? Just gave you a link where 3 cops jumped on a 130 pound black guy for no reason and he ends up dead and it's just swept under the rug. Of course you don't care about that at all since your peeve is those black people you can blame for their own problems. Hey crime happens to everybody everywhere but cops shouldn't be part of the problem should they?

As I have said a million times, I'm all for dealing with rogue cops.

As for you link, do you ever bother to read what you link? Ever????? Your representation of the event is as fake as I can imagine. Here's what your own link stated. Read this and see if 3 cops "jumped on a 130 pound black guy for no reason and he ends up dead." Don't you have any consideration at all for the truth?

"The three police officers who were involved in the incident[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Elijah_McClain#cite_note-:2-1) said that their body cameras (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_camera) were knocked off during a struggle with him. While being held to the ground by police, paramedics administered ketamine to sedate McClain, who then went into cardiac arrest (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiac_arrest)."

Now they might be guilty for all I know, but when a paramed has to administer a sedative to calm someone down, then something fairly extreme is going on.

Remember the Bubba Wallace incident. That's why we do investigations.

3 cops "jumped on a 130 pound black guy for no reason and he ends up dead." Don't you have any consideration at all for the truth?
What was the reason?

"The three police officers who were involved in the incident[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Elijah_McClain#cite_note-:2-1) said that their body cameras (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_camera) were knocked off during a struggle with him.
And my name is Tinkerbell.

While being held to the ground by police, paramedics administered ketamine to sedate McClain, who then went into cardiac arrest (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiac_arrest)."
He was already handcuffed and why oh why ketamine???

Now they might be guilty for all I know, but when a paramed has to administer a sedative to calm someone down, then something fairly extreme is going on.
The "extreme" was on the cops' and paramedics' end, not the hapless victim's. He wasn't guilty of anything except being happy while listening to music.

I wonder if we read the same articles? Black guy walking down the street running an errand going home gets in a struggle with 3 cops. Okay you explain how minding your own business gets you in a struggle with 3 cops?

What was the reason?Read the link.


And my name is Tinkerbell.I've long suspected that.

He was already handcuffed and why oh why ketamine???I don't know. The point of my reply was that Tal's ridiculous description that the cops just jumped on this guy out of nowhere and killed him is simply not true. I'm not saying nothing wrong was done. That's possible, but his description was about as silly as your description of, " A black man was shot and killed by police after he fell asleep at a Wendy's driveup."

No, Tal, we don't read the same articles. You don't read them at all. If you did, you would know the answer to this. "Okay you explain how minding your own business gets you in a struggle with 3 cops?"

The real issue if people would listen is nobody looks at why they kill, or why they keep it such a secret when they do kill. Why it gets covered up and swept under the rug, and if mistakes are made why aren't there any actions taken for justice at all. That's the issue.Now that could be a topic worthy of discussion.

Tal's ridiculous description that the cops just jumped on this guy out of nowhere and killed him is simply not true.
Yes, it is. That's what they did.

"He was walking home from a convenience store with an iced tea. Like Tamir Rice, the police were summoned to accost him for noncriminal behavior: in this case, wearing a ski mask (McClain was anemic and often donned extra layers to keep warm) and waving his arms, perhaps in time to music in the headphones he reportedly was using."
https://theweek.com/articles/921867/glaring-question-about-police-killing-elijah-mcclain

Kind of left out the part about resisting arrest. Makes your carefully edited account fake news.

Kind of left out the part about resisting arrest. Makes your carefully edited account fake news.
He wasn't resisting arrest. He was trying to get out from under after they threw him to the ground and piled on top of him. He was only 140 lbs. And they had already handcuffed him.

Oh yeah. They just decided to throw him down and pile on top of him. Yeah. Police do that all the time. Now on the other hand, does it seem much more believable that he was resisting arrest, which would explain the sedative?

Oh yeah. They just decided to throw him down and pile on top of him. Yeah. Police do that all the time. Now on the other hand, does it seem much more believable that he was resisting arrest, which would explain the sedative?

Resisting arrest for what?


The same caller affirmed during the call that he did not believe McClain was armed and that he did not believe any person, including McClain, was in immediate danger. According to police, when they confronted McClain, he resisted and attempted to reach for an officer's gun during the struggle. An attorney representing McClain's family said officers involved slammed McClain into a wall immediately after apprehending him.[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Elijah_McClain#cite_note-9)

Oh yeah. They just decided to throw him down and pile on top of him. Yeah. Police do that all the time. Now on the other hand, does it seem much more believable that he was resisting arrest, which would explain the sedative?
I will post it again: He was walking home from a convenience store with an iced tea.

Police apparently did not like how he was sidestepping and bouncing to music while he walked along

How would YOU react, JL, after they threw you to the ground and cuffed you?

I will post it again: He was walking home from a convenience store with an iced tea.

Police apparently did not like how he was sidestepping and bouncing to music while he walked along

How would YOU react, JL, after they threw you to the ground and cuffed you?

You can post your story ten more times if you want to. It wouldn't make it any more correct. You are leaving important details out.

Oh yeah. They just decided to throw him down and pile on top of him. Yeah. Police do that all the time. Now on the other hand, does it seem much more believable that he was resisting arrest, which would explain the sedative?

Yeah right, a 130 pound skinny black guy made 3 cops lose all their cameras while trying to take one of their guns? Why was he being arrested? Can't seem to find that anywhere. Looks like we have to investigate the EMT's too since he was in handcuffs when they sedated him. Maybe we reform that too practice too while we're at it. I didn't know sedating suspects was as widespread as it is.

Yeah right, a 130 pound skinny black guy made 3 cops lose all their cameras while trying to take one of their guns? Why was he being arrested? Can't seem to find that anywhere. Looks like we have to investigate the EMT's too since he was in handcuffs when they sedated him. Maybe we reform that too practice too while we're at it. I didn't know sedating suspects was as widespread as it is.
Police in Aurora, Colo. stopped 23-year-old Elijah McClain because of a report about a suspicious person wearing a ski mask. His family says he wore it to keep warm. Bodycam video captured the arrest which preceded his death.

https://abc7ny.com/elijah-mcclain-mccain-colorado-police-death-aurora/6272187/

Back in my day WG we called that rousting. They still roust all the black guys who fit the description of a black guy that commits a crime.

Back in my day WG we called that rousting. They still roust all the black guys who fit the description of a black guy that commits a crime.

no doubt they roust white guys who fit the description of a white guy who commits a crime, A black guy wearing a sky mask and it wasn't winter, supicious, tell me, do black guys not think? I would expect anyone in a sky mask would get rousted, afterall the constitution doesn't say you have the right to cover your face

If that were the case Clete we wouldn't be protesting racist cops.

If that were the case Clete we wouldn't be protesting racist cops.

I think the whole thing is bizarre, what is with the cops over there?

I think the whole thing is bizarre, what is with the cops over there?

It's very simple. A sizable fraction of police (maybe 15-20%) are outright racist. The rest see the racism but are hesitant to rock the boat by snitching on their brother cops. It's called the Blue Wall of Silence and is the determining factor in police brutality and the ensuing racism (and corruption). Change that culture and the problems disappear overnight.

It's not easy to change that culture, but it IS necessary to make a start.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

Jesus said why do you call me good? If he would not call himself good, what man has right to the title. The problem is men are only good in their own eyes

Cops need only be good in the eyes of the law, so should not be above the law.

Jesus said why do you call me good? If he would not call himself good, what man has right to the title. The problem is men are only good in their own eyes

That's a very strange read of what Jesus said. I suggest you go back to the drawing board and work out a better solution.

The saying about the triumph of evil is about as accurate as is possible. I'm sure Jesus would agree.

I wonder why Jesus called the Samaritan good? Or the shepherd?

Relying on the words of ancient man is a dubious venture in the first place. Humans have been known to be flawed, and have proved through history they can screw up anything, even the notion of god.

Jesus said why do you call me good? If he would not call himself good, what man has right to the title. The problem is men are only good in their own eyes
From Peter Pett's Commentary on the Bible:

Various alternatives have been suggested for what Jesus meant by this question. They are of varying quality.
1) Jesus meant, “You must not call me good unless you recognise me as God. If you can see my goodness, learn your lesson from it as to Who and What I am.’
2) Jesus is indicating that His goodness is dependent on the Father’s goodness, (see John 5:19) so that the title of absolute goodness belongs only to the Father.
3) Jesus was not prepared to accept the title of good until His probation was past. Until His life was complete He would not have earned the honour.
4) Jesus is taking the attitude of a man towards God, as He always did. He was here as a man among men pointing them to God. They were not to look to honour Him, however good He was, but to honour His Father.
5) He is stating a recognised truth and rebuking the man for his casual attitude towards goodness, revealed by his using the term ‘good’ without thinking it through.
6) He recognises that the man sees Him as uniquely good (as a rabbi) and is seeking to imitate Him in order to receive eternal life (compare in Matthew, ‘what good thing must I do’). He realises that the man is therefore aiming to be like Him, and really thinks that he can be. But He does not want him to try to imitate Him in this way. He wants him to look to God as his standard. So He is seeking to turn his thoughts away from Himself as the standard of goodness to God.
Certain conclusions must be drawn. Firstly that only God Himself can be seen as truly ‘good’. Secondly that Jesus does not vociferously deny the appellation, which He would have done had He seen it as totally unfitting, but wants the man to think through what he has said. When a Rabbi asked questions of his hearers it was in order to expand on the idea under discussion. Thirdly that He is unhappy about the way that the man is using the idea of goodness, and wants him to be more careful in his use of the term.

I don't think anything is written in stone, nor accepted as fact by a few without the many questions being answered. Can't modern man question ancient man without the backlash? Does holding a bible (Koran or Torah) make a loony nut legitimate and all knowing? If it does then Antifa, ISIS, and White Supremists have a legit cause, message, and method to their madness.

That doesn't sound very good to me.

I don't think anything is written in stone, nor accepted as fact by a few without the many questions being answered. Can't modern man question ancient man without the backlash? Does holding a bible (Koran or Torah) make a loony nut legitimate and all knowing? If it does then Antifa, ISIS, and White Supremists have a legit cause, message, and method to their madness.

That doesn't sound very good to me.
Yup, we can debate (until the cows come home) the words and meanings in any holy book. It still always comes down to the Golden Rule, how we treat each other.

You mean I have to suffer those loons with the chaos stick?

I don't think anything is written in stone, nor accepted as fact by a few without the many questions being answered. Can't modern man question ancient man without the backlash? Does holding a bible (Koran or Torah) make a loony nut legitimate and all knowing? If it does then Antifa, ISIS, and White Supremists have a legit cause, message, and method to their madness.

That doesn't sound very good to me.

Tal if I recall, the Ten Commandments were written in stone

Tal if I recall, the Ten Commandments were written in stone
And Jesus broke those two rigid stones into two dynamic ethics.

And Jesus broke those two rigid stones into two dynamic ethics.
No, that isn't what he did, he explained them in a simple way, love, but, he didn't supplant them, he couldn't change the Word of God

Tal if I recall, the Ten Commandments were written in stone

Before Moses wrote on stone tablets for his flock, those commandments and many more were already written in many cultures in that region already.


No, that isn't what he did, he explained them in a simple way, love, but, he didn't supplant them, he couldn't change the Word of God

Or the ancient teachings before there was Christ, and Christianity. The message is a universal one common to many cultures both before and after Jesus.

No, that isn't what he did, he explained them in a simple way, love, but, he didn't supplant them, he couldn't change the Word of God
I didn't say "supplant"! I said Jesus (who is God) gave them a dynamic meaning. The Ten Commandments are no longer negatives, but are now positives.

But this needed reckoning has also intensified a new set of moral attitudes and political commitments that tend to weaken our norms of open debate and toleration of differences in favor of ideological conformity. .......censoriousness is also spreading more widely in our culture: an intolerance of opposing views, a vogue for public shaming and ostracism, and the tendency to dissolve complex policy issues in a blinding moral certainty. We uphold the value of robust and even caustic counter-speech from all quarters. But it is now all too common to hear calls for swift and severe retribution in response to perceived transgressions of speech and thought. More troubling still, institutional leaders, in a spirit of panicked damage control, are delivering hasty and disproportionate punishments instead of considered reforms. Editors are fired for running controversial pieces; books are withdrawn for alleged inauthenticity; journalists are barred from writing on certain topics; professors are investigated for quoting works of literature in class; a researcher is fired for circulating a peer-reviewed academic study; and the heads of organizations are ousted for what are sometimes just clumsy mistakes. Whatever the arguments around each particular incident, the result has been to steadily narrow the boundaries of what can be said without the threat of reprisal. We are already paying the price in greater risk aversion among writers, artists, and journalists who fear for their livelihoods if they depart from the consensus, or even lack sufficient zeal in agreement.This stifling atmosphere will ultimately harm the most vital causes of our time. The restriction of debate, whether by a repressive government or an intolerant society, invariably hurts those who lack power and makes everyone less capable of democratic participation. The way to defeat bad ideas is by exposure, argument, and persuasion, not by trying to silence or wish them away. We refuse any false choice between justice and freedom, which cannot exist without each other. As writers we need a culture that leaves us room for experimentation, risk taking, and even mistakes. We need to preserve the possibility of good-faith disagreement without dire professional consequences. If we won’t defend the very thing on which our work depends, we shouldn’t expect the public or the state to defend it for us.


https://harpers.org/a-letter-on-justice-and-open-debate/


From the left .... you would think that arguing in favor of the free and open exchange of ideas would be a good thing. But the furious reaction from the left base has been swift .Why the gratuitous & irrelevant lines about 'right-wing demagogues'? Conservatives love a free and open exchange of ideas . We may drop the occasional name calling on them . But that is about it .

The liberal inquisition has already passed judgement ...

Chomsky...cancel him ! JK Rawling cancel and burn Harry Potter books ! Salman Rushdie, burn any of his books that the Muslims forgot .Gloria Steinem,you just lost your feminist cred . Randi Weingarten kick her out of the union . Robert F. Worth your words are not worth the paper they re printed on. Fareed Zakaria you are cancelled too.



One of their political weapons is ‘Cancel Culture’ — driving people from their jobs, shaming dissenters, and demanding total submission from anyone who disagrees. This is the very definition of totalitarianism, and it is completely alien to our culture and our values, and it has absolutely no place in the United States of America. [Trump address at Mt Rushmore ]
... It appears some pretty prominent lefties agree with him

https://harpers.org/a-letter-on-justice-and-open-debate/

This article blames Trump for the lack of civility and the illberalism in the public square.



Why the gratuitous & irrelevant lines about 'right-wing demagogues'?

Because the right-wing demagogues are gratuitous and irrelevant.


Conservatives love a free and open exchange of ideas .

Where have the conservatives gone? They have been replaced in the US Senate by right-wing demagogues.

I suppose making Obama a one term president the day he was inaugurated was one of those conservative free and open exchange of ideas right Tom? Hard to tell the fringers from the conservatives sometimes.

I didn't say "supplant"! I said Jesus (who is God) gave them a dynamic meaning. The Ten Commandments are no longer negatives, but are now positives.
In what way were then ten commandments negative but then I expect you think any curtailment of your freedom to kill, steal, have intercourse, covert, disrespect God or parents or others negative

I suppose making Obama a one term president the day he was inaugurated was one of those conservative free and open exchange of ideas right Tom?

He wasn't was he ? Just the opposite . Racist white majority America voted him in for 2 terms . But yeah I was opposed enough to his policies and his abuses of power that I did not want him to have a shot at the damage he did in his 2nd term. His one big legislative 'achievement ' was a dubiously and unconstitutional restructure of the American health care system. And it is just historically wrong to suggest that opposition to him was racially motivated . Oh I'm sure there was some of that. But the fact is that he went in with his agenda and the attitude of an imperial President . He not only had issues with Republicans. But even the Dems on the hill had issues with him (although that was not widely reported by the compliant press)


Some are scratching their heads why, after nearly six years in office and a reshuffling of his legislative affairs team, Obama's working relationship with Congress remains prickly.
“It's hard for us to fathom; I mean, is it just lack of full staffing and resources? [Is it] professional commitment? Is it a disdain for the legislative branch? I mean, what is it?” asked Rep. Gerry Connolly (https://thehill.com/people/gerry-connolly) (D-Va.). “People like me want to be allies — I mean, I am an ally. So work with us, reach out to us; you know, we're not the enemy.”........Rep. Raúl Grijalva (D-Ariz.), head of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, lamented what he characterized as a history of the White House dropping its plans on congressional Democrats without warning.
“Not being consulted ahead of time — that just makes people crazy,” Grijalva said. “Let us know ahead of time. Call us in when you're developing something so we can give you our ground-level reality check about how this is going to work.”
Rep. Jim Moran (https://thehill.com/people/jim-moran) (D-Va.) likened the relationship between presidents and their Capitol Hill allies to that between quarterbacks and the offensive linemen charged with protecting them. Some quarterbacks, he said, simply manage that alliance better than others.

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/215082-house-dems-cant-figure-out-why-obama-wont-talk-to-them

Think about it . He went into his Presidency with super majorities in Congress and instead of working on a real recovery to the global recession he got a poorly thought threw pork laden "stimulus" package and then used the next 2 years to destroy the health care system . Large numbers of insured people were forced out of sensible private plans into a typically heavily subsidized that are substandard to what they had . It basically was"screw the market, screw economics, I'm setting these standards because it's the right thing to do... deal with it. If you don't like it ,take the red pill .

He was such a bad domestic agenda President that he got his party drubbed in the mid terms . Truth is that it was good that his agenda failed . Cap and trade was a disaster waiting to happen . So he did EOs . Immigration went no where .So he did more EOs He did enough after that to secure a 2nd term . And then spent his 2nd term destroying America's foreign policy and using the Intel and investigative agencies of his executive dept to go after political opponents . Honestly the only way you could not call his presidency a failure is if you assume he meant to put the practices of 'Rules for Radicals ' into practice . In that regard he was a success.

In what way were then ten commandments negative but then I expect you think any curtailment of your freedom to kill, steal, have intercourse, covert, disrespect God or parents or others negative
Thou shalt NOT vs. Love

They start with thou shall

They start with thou shall
Nope. Thou shalt not.... All are orders: fear God and keep His commandments.

@Tom.

Good thing repubs outlawed a third term because Obama would have won that too, and we wouldn't be watching the dufus screw up the world with his paper tax fueled Wall Street windfall money giveaway, and scandalous domestic and foreign antics. Maybe then we would be doing what we should be doing to manage a pandemic, and preserving a healthy economy instead of sucking profits, and forcing the slaves back to the fields during that raging pandemic. While people are still enrolling in Obama Care after losing health insurance the dufus is still repealing and not replacing the ACA, and repub governors are expanding Medicaid because they have no better options and good thing as the pandemic rages and ravages through the country.

Aintcha glad it's OUR turn to try and make the dufus a one term president Tom? If we win the conservatives do too, and they can finally free their heads from the shoulder deep arse of the dufus to breath the fresh air of freedom again. After a nice long cold hosing of course, so we can drag you by the ankles into the future. Joe wouldn't be the first dem to save the country from repubs screwing up everything you know, but you guys are making a habit of screwing things up when you get the chance. At least from Pappy Bush on.

The daily virus cases are rising to 60,000 cases a day and the positives for the virus is higher than 25%, and the testing lines here with an 8 day turn around are miles long in 100 degree heat. Great job the dufus is doing, and we should vote him out tomorrow, because we may all be too sick and broke in November.

@Tom. Aintcha glad it's OUR turn to try and make the dufus a one term president Tom? If we win the conservatives do too, and they can finally free their heads from the shoulder deep arse of the dufus to breath the fresh air of freedom again. After a nice long cold hosing of course, so we can drag you by the ankles into the future. Joe wouldn't be the first dem to save the country from repubs screwing up everything you know, but you guys are making a habit of screwing things up when you get the chance. At least from Pappy Bush on.

There's so much in this paragraph that speaks volumes, I felt the need to jump in.

The Republicans have been the worst thing to hit this country since Nixon. From that traitor's attempt to sabotage the Paris Peace Talks simply so he could have a better chance at being elected and causing the death of untold American GIs - to Reagan who could deliver nice platitudes but didn't have much going for him above the shoulders and had to backtrack his Laffer tax nonsense - to George I and "read my lips" - and then to George II, the worst monster of the whole crowd.

Bush 2 invaded a country on evidence that he knew was false and caused over one million casualties. His cohorts in crime were Cheney, Tenet, and, sadly, Powell, a good man who was betrayed by his military obsession with loyalty. All should have been tried for war crimes.

Then we come to the present occupant of the White House. Trump is the worst president in United States history. Number 2 worst isn't even close. His idiocy is so well-known, there is no need to repeat it here. November cannot come too soon.

Nothing like a looming election to charge hyper partisanship to a fever pitch. Add to that an economy destroying pandemic ravaging everybody and taking no prisoners, we have exposed yet another repub president for his incompetence as he flails away with noise and lies.

Love to see the look on his face when he looks out of the front window of the building that bears his name to the street below painted with the words Black Lives Matter in large letters.

https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.RqHu0nBySDJzLfZECfeySAEsDw?w=216&h=180&c=7&o=5&dpr=1.91&pid=1.7

Juvenile poking by Sandinista Bill . That is a heavily travelled road . it will look like splotches of bird poop on the road in a matter of days. They had hourly reports on the progress this morning . Seems they tied up most of rush hour doing the stenciling so Bill wouldn't paint outside the lines. They were ready to paint by lunch time which was perfect for the part time mayor . The dope from Park Slope doesn't wake up that early anyway . He has to come down from his night buzz first if you know what I mean . There are two lawsuits pending against the painted words on the street in Washington DC. Of course NYC has the funds to spare to defend this childishness in court now that they are cutting a billion from NYPD budget in the wake of the biggest crime and murder spree we have seen in NYC since the days of Dinky Dinkens .

Stunt or not it was still great.

For weeks we heard the part time mayor crying about the need for Trump to bail out NYC . Good luck with that . I wonder if he knows that Trump has already moved out of NYC and established residency in FLA. The thing is that Trump Tower and that area of 5th Ave had stopped being the tourist go to place that it had been . But now with the mural ,a crowd of sightseers have shown up .There is a mini street festival right now that will last through the weekend because Sandinista Bill wants people to admire his paint by numbers project .He shut down traffic in that section of 5th Ave for the weekend . Don't know if that will continue beyond that . The rest of the merchants on 5th are not happy campers . Tourist are taking selfies in front of the "mural" and Trump Tower ;and of course going into the lobby to buy Trump merchandize .

We don't hear all that crying this far away and have our own idiots to contend with. Conservatives are jumping all over Abbott.

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/article/gov-abbott-target-democrats-gop-texas-covid-15397875.php

Hubris to think he can control Texans . I look at masks like speed limit laws .Either people are going to obey them or not . Almost impossible to enforce if enough people decided they won't wear them . So the alternative is to now punish the rest of the state ? I don't care which party they are from . I don't like these tin pot power hungry governors who think a crisis gives them the authority to be absolute dictators . There are going to be a lot of court and constitutional challenges that come out of these arbitrary lock downs . It aint ending when the virus goes away.

I would imagine it's quite hard to balance public safety, and election year politics, so no wonder we have confusion and chaos amid this economy destroying pandemic. That seems to be the biggest difference between our response to the virus, and the rest of the world. You don't think people will see that as we roll through this summer, and the virus has not slowed down?

I would imagine it's quite hard to balance public safehe balance is between public safety and election year politics
that is not the balance . the balance is between pubic saftet and personal liberty .

Good thing the 2009 H1N1 pandemic was not in an election year ....

This from when CBS had a smidgen of integrity left " "In late July, the CDC abruptly advised states to stop testing for H1N1 flu, and stopped counting individual cases. The rationale given for the CDC guidance to forego testing and tracking individual cases was: why waste resources testing for H1N1 flu when the government has already confirmed there's an epidemic?Some public health officials privately disagreed with the decision to stop testing and counting, telling CBS News that continued tracking of this new and possibly changing virus was important because H1N1 has a different epidemiology, affects younger people more than seasonal flu and has been shown to have a higher case fatality rate than other flu virus strains.
CBS News learned that the decision to stop counting H1N1 flu cases was made so hastily that states weren't given the opportunity to provide input. Instead, on July 24, the Council for State and Territorial Epidemiologists, CSTE, issued the following notice to state public health officials on behalf of the CDC:
"Attached are the Q&As that will be posted on the CDC website tomorrow explaining why CDC is no longer reporting case counts for novel H1N1. CDC would have liked to have run these by you for input but unfortunately there was not enough time before these needed to be posted (emphasis added)."

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/swine-flu-cases-overestimated/

that is not the balance . the balance is between pubic saftet and personal liberty .

Nope. It's between public safety and election year politics.


Good thing the 2009 H1N1 pandemic was not in an election year

Good thing the Bubonic Plague in 1348 AD didn't cross the ocean to North America.

Too bad the virus doesn't care about what anyone feels about their personal liberty. It won't be stopped with principles and platitudes, or ignoring it either.

it won't be stopped until a vaccine is created ;a treatment is created ,or we achieve herd immunity .

it won't be stopped until a vaccine is created ;a treatment is created ,or we achieve herd immunity .
It's here to stay and will mutate, as it has been doing already. Welcome to the new normal.

it won't be stopped until a vaccine is created ;a treatment is created ,or we achieve herd immunity .
There are effective treatments, otherwise why has america cornered the market on anti virals, but it won't be stopped until common sense prevails

There are effective treatments, otherwise why has america cornered the market on anti virals, but it won't be stopped until common sense prevails

What are the effective treatments?

it won't be stopped until a vaccine is created ;a treatment is created ,or we achieve herd immunity .

Now I understand you and the dufus. Let everybody catch a dose and the herd immunity can be achieved. The numbers will be VERY ugly though. I doubt if sacrificing that any people for something that may not happen will be a good outcome, so the pain of that business as usual approach may not go over so well.


What are the effective treatments?

We have two that while not 100% or even widespread effective, are better than none, an anti viral, and steroid, as yet.

Now I understand you and the dufus. Let everybody catch a dose and the herd immunity can be achieved. The numbers will be VERY ugly though. I doubt if sacrificing that any people for something that may not happen will be a good outcome, so the pain of that business as usual approach may not go over so well.


.

Look this is the great culling, the planet is fighting back against the most virilent virus, humans

https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/health/coronavirus-who-warns-the-greatest-threat-is-not-the-virus-itself/news-story/d5c4b752ef23615854fed2a3ee51be76

It's here to stay and will mutate, as it has been doing already. Welcome to the new normal. what do you define as the new normal? Locking people up in their own homes in perpetuity ? AIDS is a virus that never went away . Treatments were created and risk groups identified . The workplace has already adapted to make it as safe as we can get it . Time for America to get back to work .

Now I understand you and the dufus. Let everybody catch a dose and the herd immunity can be achieved. The numbers will be VERY ugly though. I doubt if sacrificing that any people for something that may not happen will be a good outcome, so the pain of that business as usual approach may not go over so well.
see above ..
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/05/28/863944333/antibody-tests-point-to-lower-death-rate-for-the-coronavirus-than-first-thought

https://www.wcnc.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/data-cdc-estimates-covid-19-mortality-rate/275-fc43f37f-6764-45e3-b615-123459f0082b
0.4% and I think it is lower by half .


Originally Posted by Athos https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/custom/vgo/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?p=3855894#post3855894)
What are the effective treatments?
New effective treatments are coming on the market every day .

what do you define as the new normal? Locking people up in their own homes in perpetuity? ?

No, no one has suggested that. Use caution - social distance, masks, hygiene, stay at home when possible.


New effective treatments are coming on the market every day .

That is NOT true! SOME treatments are SOMETIMES effective. The jury is still out - way out - on a universal treatment that works for the great majority.

I did not say universal treatment . That may never be achieved . What I would like to see is a greater emphasis in the country on prevention . Besides the guidelines you brought up (which are already in place for those who would pay attention to them),there should also be more education on how people can build up their immune systems .

I did not say universal treatment .

Ok, quibble - how about just treatment for most people, majority.


What I would like to see is a greater emphasis in the country on prevention . Besides the guidelines you brought up (which are already in place for those who would pay attention to them),there should also be more education on how people can build up their immune systems .

Nobody would disagree with that.

what do you define as the new normal? Locking people up in their own homes in perpetuity ? AIDS is a virus that never went away . Treatments were created and risk groups identified . The workplace has already adapted to make it as safe as we can get it . Time for America to get back to work .

see above ..
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/05/28/863944333/antibody-tests-point-to-lower-death-rate-for-the-coronavirus-than-first-thought

https://www.wcnc.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/data-cdc-estimates-covid-19-mortality-rate/275-fc43f37f-6764-45e3-b615-123459f0082b
0.4% and I think it is lower by half .


Originally Posted by Athos https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/custom/vgo/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?p=3855894#post3855894)
What are the effective treatments?
New effective treatments are coming on the market every day .

I will allow that your data links are from the end of May, so any updates would be appreciated since there is a huge spike in June and July.

There is no new normal yet Tom, just a mad scramble to keep up. We learn more every week, but a long way from even say w know enough. You may as well start giving kindergarteners a PHD for getting potty trained.

Ok, quibble - how about just treatment for most people, majority.



Nobody would disagree with that.

Yes let us have another game of quibble, gooody, you serve

I did not say universal treatment . That may never be achieved . What I would like to see is a greater emphasis in the country on prevention . Besides the guidelines you brought up (which are already in place for those who would pay attention to them),there should also be more education on how people can build up their immune systems .

Prevention means ceasing spreader activity such as all unnecessary human activity, and focusing on the essentials like NY did, and is still doing, and having a great testing infrastructure while we do all that other stuff you mentioned.

Now you've got it

Does me no good, unless the rest of us here get it too.

for that you need leadership, but not a leader in sight

There is an election in sight though...WHEW!

a forelorn hope with no leader in sight

Anybody will be an improvement even Bozo the clown, over the dufus but regardless we'll manage. That pisses you off doesn't it?

Anybody will be an improvement even Bozo the clown, over the dufus but regardless we'll manage. That pisses you off doesn't it?
And I suspect Biden's choice of running mate will be supremely important in his being elected.

No I wish you well in the endeavour to find a new leader or even any leader but let's face it the choice is between two old men. Doubt there is much gas left in the tank

And I suspect Biden's choice of running mate will be supremely important in his being elected.

I tend to agree.


No I wish you well in the endeavour to find a new leader or even any leader but let's face it the choice is between two old men. Doubt there is much gas left in the tank

Never sell an old coot short.

I tend to agree.


Never sell an old coot short.

I'm an old coot and I know what it feels like

Everybody is destined to be an old coot someday, if they live long enough. Wish I had been more respectful of my elders when I was younger. Now it's my turn I guess to be dissed by the youngsters, many with no clue. Oh well!

And I suspect Biden's choice of running mate will be supremely important in his being elected. indeed . Unlike him ,his running mate will have to have a pulse .


Prevention means ceasing spreader activity such as all unnecessary human activity, and focusing on the essentials like NY did, and is still doing, and having a great testing infrastructure while we do all that other stuff you mentioned.

And yet counties that opened up here are "spiking " and il duce is threatening more draconian action. I need to do my research . I think many of these measures are illegal or unconstitutional.
Facing reality . All these measures are the equivalent of the prevent defense . The slowing of the rate of infection won't change the fact that the virus is going to run it's course until humans achieve herd immunity .

indeed . Unlike him ,his running mate will have to have a pulse .

At least Biden has a heart and a brain.

There is evidence of that?

There is evidence of that?
Yes. After all, would you really rather have Trump's brain running your country?

And yet counties that opened up here are "spiking " and il duce is threatening more draconian action. I need to do my research . I think many of these measures are illegal or unconstitutional.
Facing reality . All these measures are the equivalent of the prevent defense . The slowing of the rate of infection won't change the fact that the virus is going to run it's course until humans achieve herd immunity .

IF herd immunity can be achieved and for how long. I started my theory of the virus with it will get everybody eventually, but obviously you don't want everybody, or even a great number sick at the same time do we? We can barely handle a small percentage sick right now. We can't get a reliable quick test now, making quarantine and isolation, and contact tracing useless, and a function just for hospitals.

Hoping for the best is natural, but planning for the worst was essential. Ignoring the NY example was plain stupid, and even you NY'ers aren't out of the woods. We ignored the lessons and learned nothing? Oh well hope we have enough refrigerator trucks for the dead. 1% of the population if were lucky.

The NY lesson is we are no better off than the Swedes . If by NY example you mean making sure the most vulnerable are exposed then no thanks .

I've conceded mistakes have been made, but we are early into the learning curve here Tom, and obviously we are a long way from figuring it out. I just don't get conservatives/repubs ignore it, and business as usual stance.

Guess you will figure out who to fleece to pay the tab later .

Lets see, repubs screw things up, and dems come along and unscrew things up. You need more than that? The real question has been when will repubs pick up the tab they make?

Yes. After all, would you really rather have Trump's brain running your country?

It's not my country inflicted by the colosall EGO that is Trump, but at least he has a brain even though it is little used, he can put two words together

he can put two words together
No, he can't.

The dufus can actually put words together quite well, as long as they are nasty but also senseless.

That is just babbling

That is just babbling
Like this?
“We secured nearly $1.2 billion to expand rural broadband, which you need very badly. You need very badly,” said Trump. “They have not treated the Midwest well with broadband, with anything having to do with the word computer. I look at some of those tractors and they don’t even hook up. They’re all set. But you don’t have the capability in terms of your infrastructure—” [a Fox anchor broke in to interrupt him].

Or this?
"He plagiarized from me," Trump told a reporter today on his way to Miami, Florida, referring to Joe Biden's economic plan. And then, "It's very radical left, but he said the right things, because he is copying what I've done."

exactly

https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.ESGqcTyUqOAO-rxjdUyGPwHaFM?w=248&h=180&c=7&o=5&dpr=1.25&pid=1.7

posted by the person who applauds il duce Cuomo and his dictates of the week .

This week to patronize a bar we have to buy some food and sit down . So an enterprising bar posted their new menu for the bar area .
https://scontent-lga3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/109928100_282420263187244_1976842509297285915_n.pn g?_nc_cat=109&_nc_sid=b96e70&_nc_ohc=0JF6kSex5BsAX8s2NmM&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-2.xx&oh=5c85421beb7f09c0c9e5bb37971af683&oe=5F375990

Let me know how a bunch of drunks crowded around a bar works for fighting this spread of the virus.

Maybe they believe alcohol is an antiviral

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-19/nsw-police-fine-revellers-after-sydney-house-party-coronavirus/12470476

Drunks do stupid stuff without or without a virus threat.

Some businesses out of necessity to survive have been forced to create an underground economy. Many will just fold under the draconian and unfair top down decisions .As an example , Gavin Newsome ,who owns wineries in Napa Valley has allowed them to operate. But the wineries in the San Juaquin Valley are not permitted to do so. Some businesses have gone so far as to use prohibition style methods ;peep holes ,special knocks or pass codes to trusted customers. Many service businesses like hair dressers ,nail salons ,massage ,tattoo parlors have resorted to a cash transactions only to bipass the mini-dicator's arbitrary decisions about which businesses may open or not.


Drunks do stupid stuff yeah and so do Walmart and Costco customers . But those businesses have been deemed essential . In California they closed the bars but left the pot dispensaries open .

They give drugs and booze to the homeless addicts along with free hotel rooms . They call the hotel rooms temporary shelter . But the truth is that they plan on converting these hotels into permanent shelters ,and they plan on using Federal money to pay for it .

you keep playing from the trump playbook tom, to be sure that german nancy doesn't want derelects in his hotels

Some businesses out of necessity to survive have been forced to create an underground economy. Many will just fold under the draconian and unfair top down decisions .As an example , Gavin Newsome ,who owns wineries in Napa Valley has allowed them to operate. But the wineries in the San Juaquin Valley are not permitted to do so. Some businesses have gone so far as to use prohibition style methods ;peep holes ,special knocks or pass codes to trusted customers. Many service businesses like hair dressers ,nail salons ,massage ,tattoo parlors have resorted to a cash transactions only to bipass the mini-dicator's arbitrary decisions about which businesses may open or not.

The underground economy and alternative ways to do business have existed for decades. Ask the dufus, he would know.


yeah and so do Walmart and Costco customers . But those businesses have been deemed essential . In California they closed the bars but left the pot dispensaries open .


Everybody has to eat, and all the grocery stores stayed open, and pot shops were like liquor stores grab and go.


They give drugs and booze to the homeless addicts along with free hotel rooms . They call the hotel rooms temporary shelter . But the truth is that they plan on converting these hotels into permanent shelters ,and they plan on using Federal money to pay for it .

That's as wild a statement as I have ever heard, but hotel rooms for the homeless, especially the ones with kids sound like a great idea to me. Can't be more than the Fed dollars going for dumber stuff, like tax cuts for rich guys.

They are just keeping a source of infection off the streets, but it does highlight a problem, what do you do with the homeless when you run out of bridges and doorways?

We have plenty of parks.

They are trying to get them out of the parks, no, with covid making many more homeless it is time for change

November election?

November election? You seem to think that will solve everything but more urgent action is needed

Ya think? We suffer under this dufus and no action can be taken at this time urgent or not.

perhaps the people of Portland would disagree

You mean where the moms and white females have joined the protestors? Or where the mayor was tear gassed for being on the frontlines with the protestors? Are those the people who disagree with the notion of the feds attacking peaceful protestors with a right to do so in dem run cities, but not in repub cities where crime is rampant?

Such a targeted show of illegal authority is clearly NOT about law and order, but FACISM by the dufus.