https://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/cop-cars-burned-in-absolute-chaos-in-los-angeles/news-story/fb47e1454ea835a34d2fb1e417f65f1d

In many cities in the US there is chaos and mayhem blamed on police brutality, but it is a sign of a bigger problem. Draconian laws targetting the minority, the continued oppression of coloured and poor people and a system that relies on violence instead of goodwill and a frustration of a society ordered to shutdown

I think you are partially right, but the number of incidents where the police are guilty of violence against a person of color is pretty low. The real problems lie elsewhere. The crime rate of young black men is very high. The out of wedlock birth rate is VERY high in the black community. Young minority kids are frequently stuck in sub-par schools and get a sub-par education. There is a welfare mentality in much of the country that works against people. But racist policemen seem to be few and far between. Even in the case of George Floyd, it is not definite that the policeman targeted him because he was black. His treatment of Floyd was terrible for sure and he certainly should be prosecuted, but he might have done the same if Floyd had been white.

I think you are partially right, but the number of incidents where the police are guilty of violence against a person of color is pretty low. The real problems lie elsewhere. The crime rate of young black men is very high. The out of wedlock birth rate is VERY high in the black community. Young minority kids are frequently stuck in sub-par schools and get a sub-par education. There is a welfare mentality in much of the country that works against people. But racist policemen seem to be few and far between. Even in the case of George Floyd, it is not definite that the policeman targeted him because he was black. His treatment of Floyd was terrible for sure and he certainly should be prosecuted, but he might have done the same if Floyd had been white.

As I said manifestation of a bigger problem. perhaps racist behaviour is at the root of this but so is reverse racist behaviour. If white society is racist so is coloured society but disadvantage is endemic. For two months people have been penned up and natural release behaviours have been denied, so they give vent to their anger and voice to the violence that once again rares its ugly head. perhaps it is time to root out the fanatics in the police force, those who fail to recognise that recourse to violence isn't a first response. remove the god mentality from the police force and give a mandatory death sentence to anyone who kills whether in the name of the law or not

I expected this sooner . I would say for the most part the protests have been peaceful The real problem is the outside agitation by anarchists . We all agree on George Floyd, which is why a bad cop is now under arrest. Anyone who defends looting and rioting and targeting of business owners and cops on this basis is nothing short of evil.

https://twitter.com/jackposobiec/status/1266974618218377216?s=21&fbclid=IwAR08xv8vrPJNz_rODyq1oo6xOF0H2h0CiGvUpyzgQ OJyJ_R4BRCWOorLC2M

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1266824900427132928

https://twitter.com/TKQ1777/status/1266941688972378113

How long has this been going on? How many of these triggering incidents have we had just this spring? Easy to ignore the alarm clock when you don't want to hear it. Just keep hitting snooze!

Take a look at HK as a guide to how long it might go on. Violence went on for months and has started up again, different issues but obviously, people have had enough and are going to keep it up until change happens. So over to the legislature to change the laws and give more weight to anti-violence on behalf of police forces and less draconian responses to demonstrations

How many of these triggering incidents have we had just this spring?Four? And in the meantime, over 150 black Americans are murdered EVERY WEEK, about 90% of them by other black individuals. But that gets no traction because, after all, who gives a rats rear end about an innocent person who was merely murdered by a non-white? Hundreds of thousands of inner city minority kids are stuck in pathetic schools, but no one cares because you can't blame that on a cop. The equation is very simple. Let's get all wound up over what OTHER people should do to fix the problems of black America. It would be too demanding to expect black America to do their own fixing. That's not too surprising. It's human nature to always want to blame my problems on someone else, but it's a fool's errand

Vigilantes stalking and killing a guy they think is a criminal and it gets swept under the rug for months? Who made that decision. Cops with the wrong house killing a resident? Whose problem is that? Knee to the neck until death and 3 cops just watch? Whose problem is that? If you can't get the obvious stuff right then not much progress can be made on the whole problem, which is segregation and discrimination, suppression, oppression, and plain old racism.

The issue before us now is the culture of our cops that condone murder of it's citizens, and unrestrained vigilantes empowered to intervene where ever they please. Not saying there are not other issues to be addressed, long term inequities to be balanced, like poverty, but for now we want justice for an obvious failure to protect and serve.

You should listen to that. You shouldn't dismiss what every body has been saying.

The issue before us now is the culture of our cops that condone murder of it's citizens,It's a fake issue. An isolated occurence does not amount to "the culture of our cops". If you want the situation of poverty to improve, then you can forget about the "cops that condone murder" narrative. It is a minor, minor contributor to the problem. If anyone really wants to get serious about poverty in the black community, then the real problems have to be addressed. The rest is just window dressing. Not saying it does not bring a lot of emotional pain. I'm sure it does, but it certainly is not a major contributor to poverty. The very sad truth is that the glorious day arrived long ago when social prejudice against black people had been diminished to the point that it could no longer hold back black people as a whole. They have become the masters of their own destinies, and yet there are very real problems which no one wants to talk about or deal with that are now, by far, the chief offenders.

It's a fake issue. An isolated occurence does not amount to "the culture of our cops".

I beg to differ, as this is a recurring problem and there is a verifiable history to back that up.

OK. Tell us about that history. How many cases of a black person being unjustifiably killed by a cop have happened this year? List them, please. And if you think that is a recurring problem, then how can you be silent about the fact that for every black person murdered by a policeman, there are hundreds and hundreds of black people killed by other black people. Doesn't that qualify much, much more as a recurring problem?

You have TWO separate issues. Cops killing unarmed or non threatening citizens, matter of public record, and black on black crime, which is a local issue. Poverty breeds crime in some places, black or white. Are the root causes the same? I'll let you verify or gather what you need to form your own conclusions.

Cops killing unarmed or non threatening citizens,Very few in number.


black on black crime, which is a local issue.Deaths by the thousands.

Funny how the first one gets all the attention.

Very few in number.

Deaths by the thousands.

Funny how the first one gets all the attention.

Is that the way you see it? Why? I see it in the contexts that cops should never murder abuse, or terrorize the citizen, without accountability. Just like any citizen that murders, terrorizes or abuses another citizen. Cops shouldn't be above the law. What? Their crimes should be swept under the rug and they should remain free? That's not my idea of serve and protect.

Bad enough criminals exist. We don't need criminal cops too.

Their crimes should be swept under the rug and they should remain free? That's not my idea of serve and protect.No one has suggested that. Certainly I have not.

The dufus ain't happy with the protest.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-calls-governors-weak-urges-them-to-use-force-against-unruly-protests/ar-BB14T8VC?ocid=msedgntp

And

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/independent-autopsy-finds-george-floyd-s-death-homicide-caused-by-asphyxia/ar-BB14TpO1?ocid=msedgntp

I don't think anyone is happy with the protests, also known as riots, or at least in some cases.

I'm for peaceful protests, not for riots, looting, burnings, or any acts of violence. I think there is a huge distinction between protests and riots, but realize one can turn to the other really fast.

I'm for peaceful protests, not for riots, looting, burnings, or any acts of violence. I think there is a huge distinction between protests and riots, but realize one can turn to the other really fast.

Especially when the idiot in the White House encourages rioting by threatening the country with an armed military. The nutcase thinks he's in a movie as he struts around the historic church looking for a photo op. The bible he was holding is hilarious. I'm surprised it didn't burn his hand.

I'm for peaceful protests, not for riots, looting, burnings, or any acts of violence.I figured that to be the case.

Trump is a well know idiot, i don't know why we focus on this antics, bored i guess

After blasting governors for being weak, the dufus broke up peaceful protesters for a photo op with a bible in front of a church across from the WH. The church bishop was outraged.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/episcopal-bishop-on-president-trump-everything-he-has-said-and-done-is-to-inflame-violence/ar-BB14TI7h?ocid=spartanntp

Were those the "peaceful protesters" who tried to burn said church?

Why would you assume they were? Can't separate peaceful protests from criminal actions?

The people trying to burn the church were hardly peaceful. I can't blame the pres for clearing out the protesters after the events of the past few days. You never know who might be in a crowd like that, even though most of them were no doubt there for peaceful purposes. I thought it was a nice gesture to support the church. As even your article points out, many religious leaders were supportive.

Especially when the idiot in the White House encourages rioting by threatening the country with an armed military.
Riots and looting in New Orleans were quickly controlled when the military rolled into town . Same during the Rodney King riots . The President has to authority under the Insurrection Act to deploy Federal troops when local authorities are unwilling or able to control the mob. I'm guessing you don't have an issue with LBJ deploying the Alabama National Guard in 1965 against George Wallace's refusal to deploy them ;or when Ike deployed troops to Little Rock Ark .to enforce the Brown v Board of Education decision.

This is how I see it . 1968 the country was reeling from riots and assassinations . LBJ decided to bow out of the presidential race and the Dems decided to go with the establishment curmudgeon ... Humphrey ;who's fiery liberal spirit had been pretty much dashed by LBJ's record on defending civil society and law and order . He lost to the law and order candidate .

Yesterday Trump made himself the law and order candidate that the majority will vote for . Because the majority went into this united behind the idea that the murder of George Floyd was not being handled properly by the liberal government in Milwaukee . The nihilist Antifa sparked violent riots where there were peaceful protests . Local leadership in major blue cities have proven to be unwilling or unable to control this unruly agitating mob . It is a bunch of privileged white pajama boys who are living in their mamma's basement ;collecting their unemployment checks ;whining that they are expected to pay the loans they took out to get an advanced degree in community organizing who are the problem . You should be happy to see them get their heads busted open . But no ;Sandinista Bill calls out the police dept he runs because a cop pulled a gun on someone who had just thrown a brick at him.
It is very simple . the il duce's and Di Blasio's of this country have got to grow a spine . I mean seriously ; Sandinista Bill emptied out Rykers Island of convicts . He must have 10,000 empty cells to house the rioters he should be arresting . If they don't do it they will force Trump's hand . He served them notice yesterday .

You missed the point . The curfew came .... there was still a crowd ... they were dispersed with tear gas . And Trump walked through Lafayette Park to the church to demonstrate that the mob did not rule the streets .

You missed the point . The curfew came .... there was still a crowd ... they were dispersed with tear gas . And Trump walked through Lafayette Park to the church to demonstrate that the mob did not rule the streets .

The curfew had NOT come! The peaceful crowd was brutally dispersed with tear gas and mounted police and other weapons.

Trump ordered the dispersal because of a PHOTO OP!!

you are playing semantics... the crowd was told to disperse by law enforcement.. they chose to ignore it ...law enforcement dispersed them . What was there 15 minutes left ? The crowd being in Lafayette park when they were there already sent a message they were not going to comply . They expected the DC authorities to be as fecklessly spineless as they had been the night before . But a new sheriff is in town . Notice served .

The curfew had NOT come! The peaceful crowd was brutally dispersed with tear gas and mounted police and other weapons.

Trump ordered the dispersal because of a PHOTO OP!!

I'll go with this account of events because I watched it. The civil war continues, right vs might.

Yesterday in NYC ,Macys was sacked by the mob . Interesting how they left the Nike store alone .
Today I am hearing that a truck with bricks was prepositioned on Hamilton Ave. for the peaceful protest . Sandinista Bill chastised a cop who pulled a gun on a "peaceful protester " who had thrown a brick at him . Even il duce is fed up with Di Blasio's lame performance. I may be wrong . But I doubt there will be much of that in the nation's Capital tonight .

Btw ; Sandinista Bill's daughter Chiara was arrested Saturday when she refuse to move while she blocked traffic at an area where NYC police vans were being fire bombed . In a demonstration of equal justice ,she was given a desk appearance ticket and sent home to Gracie Mansion.

In a demonstration of equal justice ,she was given a desk appearance ticket and sent home to Gracie Mansion.I'm sure that will bring down the ire of the "equal justice" crowd on this site.

You don't believe in equal justice?

I actually do believe in it. That's why I'm more concerned about the 150 black Americans murdered every week than I am about the one black American killed by a cop. Both are terrible situations, but equal justice should apply to everyone. That's why the mayor's daughter should have been treated like everyone else.

I actually do believe in it. That's why I'm more concerned about the 150 black Americans murdered every week than I am about the one black American killed by a cop. Both are terrible situations, but equal justice should apply to everyone. That's why the mayor's daughter should have been treated like everyone else.

If you have been listening to the protesters or black people in general, then you would know we have been protesting for decades about police brutality, unequal justice, housing discrimination, institutional racism and a host of things, but this latest killing by cops is not just one incident, but the last in a string of many, with nothing being done about it. So be concerned about the weekly death toll, but also be aware of what THIS protest is about. I doubt if the mayors daughter was the only one given an appearance ticket and sent home, but for now I'm picking my battles and refuse to be side tracked by other issues.

I believe in equal justice . I want justice for Italia Kelly who was gunned down by peaceful protesters . I want justice or Dave Patrick Underwood ;the Federal Protective Service officer who died Friday night after suffering from a gunshot wound in Oakland amid protests. Quid pro Joe will be doing a photo op attending George Floyd's funeral . Will he also attend the hero Underwood's ?

Would we be here at all if cops hadn't murdered Floyd in broad daylight caught on tape? Or the woman in Ky, or the jogger in Atlanta (Ex cop who should have known better) that was swept under a rug for months? I don't think so.

I believe in equal justice .

We all do. But I think you're missing the greater point. I don't think you're a racist, tom, unlike Judas who lacks only the white sheet and pointed hat.

If you have been listening to the protesters or black people in general, then you would know we have been protesting for decades about police brutality, unequal justice, housing discrimination, institutional racism and a host of things,I can certainly accept the validity of your list of protests, but notably absent from your list is the 1,000 or so innocent black people killed by another black person for every one unjustly killed by a policeman, or the tens of thousands of black children killed in abortion, or the counter-productive practice of out of wedlock births, or the injustice of trapping black children in terrible schools, or the rampant epidemic of criminal activity amongst young black men, or the disintegration of the black family structure. And the great news is that the black community could fix those problems all by themselves. No racist white group could stop them, and the progress would be enormous. But no, it's too easy to talk about the extremely isolated cases of police brutality since that requires no change amongst those doing the talking.

Or the woman in Ky, or the jogger in Atlanta...that was swept under a rug for months? If they had merely been killed by a non-white, you can be sure that no one would ever have known about it.

...but notably absent from your list is the ... etc., etc., etc.

Notably absent from your list is the destruction of an entire group of people by 400 years of horrific treatment, including 200 years of the worst abject slavery in history, followed by a century of lynchings and Jim Crow, to the present day of systemic institutional discrimination. These things are not important enough for you to mention.

Your comment on abortion is even stranger. You weep for an aborted fetus who, if it had survived, you accept it spending an eternity in torturous punishment in an eternal hell. It would have been far better for that fetus to be aborted than to be born - according to your own belief.


And the great news is that the black community could fix those problems all by themselves.

Even in the face of your stated prejudice against the group?


No racist white group could stop them,

Except for the racist group that's been successfully doing so for 4 centuries.


But no, it's too easy to talk about the extremely isolated cases of police brutality.

"Extremely isolated cases of police brutality"? Are you serious? Your ignorance is glaring. Spend time in any black ghetto in this country and then come back and tell us how extremely isolated bad treatment, including brutality, is in black neighborhoods.

Why don't you accept the testimony of ordinary African-Americans who are quick to comment how police act in their neighborhoods? - I think we know why you don't.

For the record - Blaming the black community 100% for their difficulties is absurd. Equally to blame are the historic forces that have been lined up against them for centuries, and ongoing.

"Extremely isolated cases of police brutality"? Are you serious? Your ignorance is glaring. Spend time in any black ghetto in this country and then come back and tell us how extremely isolated bad treatment, including brutality, is in black neighborhoods.So you've done this? You've "spent time" in black ghettos? Now unlike you, I've worked in inner city schools, "spent time in black ghettos", and became familiar with those testimonies. They were few and far between.


Why don't you accept the testimony of ordinary African-Americans who are quick to comment how police act in their neighborhoods? - I think we know why you don't.I'm perfectly happy to accept those testimonies, but at some point you're going to have to abandon your generalities and list some specifics. I'll give some. Since the George Floyd atrocity, an average of 21 black people every day have been murdered, over 90% of them by other black people. They die silently since there is no political advantage to be gained by publicizing their deaths. It's tragic and sad. People should be able to live in safety.


For the record - Blaming the black community 100% for their difficulties is absurd. Equally to blame are the historic forces that have been lined up against them for centuries, and ongoing.If I was doing the former and not doing the latter, then I would agree with you. The main point, which clearly zoomed right over your head, is that the black community, unlike in the fifties and sixties, is now in the place where white oppression is not their chief problem, or even a major problem. The biggest problems they face, and this is true in all ethnic populations in our country, are subject to their own control. No white racist or conservative government can stop the black population from improving itself enormously, but it will not be an easy task. Having a pres who achieved the lowest black unemployment in history is certainly helpful, but it's only a small step. There is much hard work to be done.

While the dufus is doing dopey stuff, there are actually people doing the right thing and keeping the peace the right way.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/tunedin/when-national-guardsmen-listened-to-protesters/vi-BB14W2Se?ocid=anaheim-ntp-feeds


So you've done this? You've "spent time" in black ghettos? Now unlike you, I've worked in inner city schools, "spent time in black ghettos", and became familiar with those testimonies. They were few and far between.
I'm perfectly happy to accept those testimonies, but at some point you're going to have to abandon your generalities and list some specifics. I'll give some. Since the George Floyd atrocity, an average of 21 black people every day have been murdered, over 90% of them by other black people. They die silently since there is no political advantage to be gained by publicizing their deaths. It's tragic and sad. People should be able to live in safety.

For one thing black on black crime happens within the poor communities of black people, trapped in those ever eroding enclaves of opportunity and services, save for the racists cops who rule over them. That's no generality, that's just reality. If they could afford to move, no doubt they would, but can't. No they don't die silently, since everyone there knows them, but it happens so often it can be ignored by everybody else outside the depression zone. Cop are not the friend in these places, just the opposite, so NO services, NO protection, and NO opportunity perpetuates the condition that over time is exacerbated by utter neglect.

If I was doing the former and not doing the latter, then I would agree with you. The main point, which clearly zoomed right over your head, is that the black community, unlike in the fifties and sixties, is now in the place where white oppression is not their chief problem, or even a major problem. The biggest problems they face, and this is true in all ethnic populations in our country, are subject to their own control. No white racist or conservative government can stop the black population from improving itself enormously, but it will not be an easy task. Having a pres who achieved the lowest black unemployment in history is certainly helpful, but it's only a small step. There is much hard work to be done.

I disagree fully and site as above the NEGLECT that is the tool of oppression, suppression, and a target for exploitation not just by the system, but any nefarious entity trying to make some illegal bucks. The notion that they control their own destinies is but a lame excuse to ignore them even further. One should wrap their heads around the money involved in that neglect to buy cheap, sell high, as a long term strategy for riches, because indeed somebody makes money from the existence of ghetto slums areas. Maybe part of your own experiences in this area JL should not just be the altruistic blame game, but the centuries old money game going back to right after the civil war.

I think I have mentioned before the gentrification that goes on in those slums and ghettos and you should not ignore that very real economic strategy.

save for the racists cops who rule over them. That's no generality, that's just reality.Everytime I read crap like that, I can't help but hope that the cops pull all of their units out of your neighborhood for a while. After a few months of that, you'd be happy to have those "racist cops" back.


The notion that they control their own destinies is but a lame excuse to ignore them even further. Oh?? Which of these do they not control? Out of wedlock births? Rampant criminal activity by young black men? Disintegration of the family unit? Black on black crime? Which of those does the black community not control? And which of those would not yield amazing benefit upon being corrected?

https://www.nationalmemo.com/st-johns-episcopal-church-washington-dc-trump


Everytime I read crap like that, I can't help but hope that the cops pull all of their units out of your neighborhood for a while. After a few months of that, you'd be happy to have those "racist cops" back.

I agree get rid of the racist cop period, and just have good dedicated cops. No cop would be better than racist cops.


Oh?? Which of these do they not control? Out of wedlock births? Rampant criminal activity by young black men? Disintegration of the family unit? Black on black crime? Which of those does the black community not control? And which of those would not yield amazing benefit upon being corrected?

I think white people suffer the same maladies and it may be worse, since they commit more violent crimes than black people do. They just don't suffer the same consequences as white folks do.

https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/criminal-justice/news/2018/08/29/455313/dangerous-racialization-crime-u-s-news-media/

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/05/21/from-police-to-parole-black-and-white-americans-differ-widely-in-their-views-of-criminal-justice-system/

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2019/08/police-officer-shootings-gun-violence-racial-bias-crime-data/595528/

Out of wedlock births?

Doesn't necessarily mean a two parent or family unit is not involved.

Rampant criminal activity by young black men?

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/are-blacks-a-criminal-rac_b_8398

Disintegration of the family unit?

Half the married people in America get divorced. most get remarried and get divorced again.

Black on black crime?

The crime rates are falling for everybody.

Which of those does the black community not control?

Not enough control, and they certainly don't own the land where they live in their community. Like I said if the could afford to move they would and do.

You never talk about the shortcomings of white people, but love to critique black people. Just an observation.

Out of wedlock births? Doesn't necessarily mean a two parent or family unit is not involved.Uhm...actually, that's exactly what it means.


Rampant criminal activity by young black men?"African-Americans are roughly six times as likely as white Americans to die at the hands of amurderer, and roughly seven times as likely to murder someone; their victims are black 82% ofthe time.1 Homicide is the second most important reason for the racial gap in life expectancy:eliminating homicide would do more to equalize black and white life expectancy than eliminatingany other cause of death except heart disease."

http://www.columbia.edu/~rs328/Homicide.pdf


Disintegration of the family unit? Half the married people in America get divorced. most get remarried and get divorced again. A far larger percentage of black children are raised in a single-parent home than are non-black children.



Black on black crime? The crime rates are falling for everybody.So?

I'm happy to talk about the shortcomings of white people. It is similar to the shortcomings of the black community, but the point remains. All of the situations above are solvable by the black community alone and would bring about great benefits. So the question should be asked, why don't they get talked about?

So you've done this? You've "spent time" in black ghettos?

More lies from you. I never said that. But I can listen to black people describing their life in areas patrolled by police. THAT is the issue here - not your usual diversion.


Now unlike you, I've worked in inner city schools, "spent time in black ghettos", and became familiar with those testimonies. They were few and far between.

You have no idea whether I've spent time in black neighborhoods but that doesn't stop you from lying - like your "few and far between" testimonies of black people. This is a common theme of white supremacists. More and more, with each post, you come across as one of them.


Since the George Floyd atrocity, an average of 21 black people every day have been murdered, over 90% of them by other black people.

Another theme of the white supremacists. The issue is not crime, which you are doing your damndest to change the subject to, but police treatment in black neighborhoods.


The main point, which clearly zoomed right over your head, is that the black community, unlike in the fifties and sixties, is now in the place where white oppression is not their chief problem, or even a major problem.

Nothing you say could ever zoom over my head - you're too little. Yes, those wonderful 50s and 60s where segregation was the rule and where black people "knew their place". No surprise you yearn for those days.


The biggest problems they face, and this is true in all ethnic populations in our country, are subject to their own control.

Reading your posts here is like reading the playbook of white supremacy. To compare the black experience as the same as "all ethnic populations" in our country reveals your ignorance as nothing you have written so far. The Irish, having the same language and appearance, assimilated within a single generation. The Italians a few more generations. The Jews a generation or two but still not perfectly (a separate subject). All the rest more or less the same.

Now let's look at the African-American experience. From arriving here unwillingly as slaves to the present day, the number of generations has been enormously greater than any ethnic group and the assimilation is STILL not fully accomplished. Did you ever stop to consider WHY all those bad things you blame blacks for exist? And what the source is? No, of course not. What racist would.


No white racist or conservative government can stop the black population from improving itself enormously

Then how do you explain the phenomenal success of the white supremacists for hundreds of years?


but it will not be an easy task.

True, thanks to you and your ilk. That's the first true thing you've said here.


Having a pres who achieved the lowest black unemployment in history is certainly helpful

If you want Trump to take undeserved credit for the economy's recovery begun by Obama, then it's only fair you take blame for the gigantic drop in black employment during his fourth year. I believe it's in the millions - the largest drop in history thanks to Trump.

then it's only fair you take blame for the gigantic drop in black employment during his third term. I believe it's in the millions - the largest drop in history thanks to Trump.

What third term is that wishfull thinking

My fault - thanks - fourth YEAR, not third TERM! Good Lord!

You have no idea whether I've spent time in black neighborhoods but that doesn't stop you from lying - like your "few and far between" testimonies of black people. This is a common theme of white supremacists. More and more, with each post, you come across as one of them.What a fantasy world you live in. Between the two of us, I'm the one who has actually spent time (years) working with inner city kids and their families. In other words, I'm the only one who cared enough to actually spend time helping.


Nothing you say could ever zoom over my head Funny. It still does. Your hate-filled rhetoric demonstrates that you just don't get it. Too bad. Maybe some day you'll catch on. Spend 17 years of your life actually working with minority kids and their families, and then come back and talk to us. Then you can offer something more than just talk.


So you've done this? You've "spent time" in black ghettos?



More lies from you. I never said that. But I can listen to black people describing their life in areas patrolled by police. THAT is the issue here - not your usual diversion.You don't know the difference between a question and a statement? I didn't say you did, I asked if you did. And the obvious answer is...NO. So it seems you have many theories but no practical experience. That does not surprise me.

@Athos, thank you for listening, that's a hopeful sign as we see the very broad cross section of America protesting this murder of a citizen by police.

@JL, trying to shout over the real issue instead of listening is a distraction that won't work. Can't wait for you to criticize your own like you have accused liberals of not doing.

It saddens me that the sum total of your inner city experience is to criticize shortcomings.

@JL, trying to shout over the real issue instead of listening is a distraction that won't work. Can't wait for you to criticize your own like you have accused liberals of not doing.I'm perfectly willing to listen, but I'm not into these emotional responses. I'm much more concerned about the long-term. Unless the black community addresses out of wedlock births, poor schools, etc., they will not make progress. Maybe you don't care about that. I do.


It saddens me that the sum total of your inner city experience is to criticize shortcomings.Pointing out shortcomings is not the same thing as criticizing them, and my experience was to get in the middle of it and help. But at any rate, aren't you being critical yourself? Is that the sum total of your experience? Maybe we should knock off the rhetoric and engage in a sensible discussion. Some here are too busy spewing anger and hate to do that, but I know that you can.

What is really needed is an emotion-free, hate-free, rhetoric-free discussion. It would be nice to have one. Not that there would be no strong statements, but that there would be a mutual recognition of lines which should not be crossed.

I'm perfectly willing to listen, but I'm not into these emotional responses. I'm much more concerned about the long-term. Unless the black community addresses out of wedlock births, poor schools, etc., they will not make progress. Maybe you don't care about that. I do.

The black community has been hollering with words and actions for generations about the brutality of police and racists with hoods before that. When do you make a willingness to listen an actual action instead of what YOU think we should care about first? The recent caught on camera callous murder of a black man is but the tip of the iceberg in my communities which you ignore trying to preach what you think should be done.

You may be willing to listen, but have not to date.


Pointing out shortcomings is not the same thing as criticizing them, and my experience was to get in the middle of it and help. But at any rate, aren't you being critical yourself? Is that the sum total of your experience? Why don't you knock off the rhetoric and engage in a sensible discussion.

This isn't about you and what you've done it's about LISTENING which you haven't done. Don't even try to put your years against my lifetime experience of actually being a part of the community. That's personally insulting, but you aren't listening.

You can't listen and preach at the same time, and obviously you rather preach to, than listen to, the black man. Don't be offended if they don't listen to you, or push back vigorously.

Your first clue was the diversity of the crowds that have been protesting since this death of a citizen across the NATION. This ain't a local thing, nor restricted to just black people.

It saddens me that the sum total of your inner city experience is to criticize shortcomings.

I couldn't have said it any better. Right into the bulls-eye!

1. His observation, as I pointed out, was not correct.
2. At least I, unlike you, actually troubled myself to get into the middle of minority communities and help. Seventeen years for me, and evidently 0 for you, so yeah, I tend to not pay much attention to your theories. If you ever gain any practical experience, get back with us. Until then, you barely qualify to be an amateur.

17 years in the inner city and you never heard about police brutality or racists cop? Or racism PERIOD?

1. His observation, as I pointed out, was not correct.

Tal's observation was perfectly correct. Whatever you point out is generally incorrect. But keep trying.


2. At least I, unlike you, actually troubled myself to get into the middle of minority communities and help.

Your total lack of understanding is a strong indicator you wasted your time - if in fact you're telling the truth which is a separate question.


I tend to not pay much attention to your theories.

I don't write for those who cannot see, only for those who have eyes.


you barely qualify to be an amateur.

God knows what that makes you. You are certainly a master at and more than qualified to spout insulting nonsense. Other than that, you rarely provide much meat for others to chew on.

What a fantasy world you live in. Between the two of us, I'm the one who has actually spent time (years) working with inner city kids and their families. In other words, I'm the only one who cared enough to actually spend time helping.

Funny. It still does. Your hate-filled rhetoric demonstrates that you just don't get it. Too bad. Maybe some day you'll catch on. Spend 17 years of your life actually working with minority kids and their families, and then come back and talk to us. Then you can offer something more than just talk.

You don't know the difference between a question and a statement? I didn't say you did, I asked if you did. And the obvious answer is...NO. So it seems you have many theories but no practical experience. That does not surprise me.

A lot of words with little punch. You always manage to avoid the real issue being discussed. It's not surprising.

Like I said. "Your hate-filled rhetoric demonstrates that you just don't get it. Too bad. Maybe some day you'll catch on."


Your total lack of understanding is a strong indicator you wasted your time - if in fact you're telling the truth which is a separate question.Yeah. I'm sure all those years you've spent sitting in your living room has given you great understanding. You're like a guy who's seen a few pictures of the Grand Canyon trying to lecture someone who worked there as a park ranger. It just won't work. Instead of just talking, go work in an inner city school for even a couple of months and then come back and share your insights. I dare you to get off your cozy couch and go do it. Be a man and give it a shot. I guarantee you that you will learn a lot more than your students.

Me telling the truth? Remember Aquinas???

17 years in the inner city and you never heard about police brutality or racists cop? Or racism PERIOD?

Missed your response, my bad?

Sorry. Didn't see your comment. Did I see instances of racism? Some, but as far as negative impacts on the lives of my students, it was miles away from being the biggest problem. Fatherless homes was far and away the biggest problem. I would say that an insufficient emphasis on the value of learning, beginning as toddlers all the way to seniors, would be in second place. People would get upset about our state flag. Well, I agree it should be changed and voted in favor of changing it, but changing the flag will not change the direction or prospects of a single life. Creating strong families would do far, far more good.

Me telling the truth? Remember Aquinas???

Remember Judas?

One big difference. It applies accurately only to you. I am happy to stick with the words of Jesus.

I am happy to stick with the words of Jesus.

No, what you really mean is you are happy with the words in a book. You have no idea what the words of Jesus were. Even less have you understood his message.

You have no idea what the words of Jesus were. Even less have you understood his message.What an ignorant statement. On the one hand you claim that I don't know the words of Jesus. Now I quoted them repeatedly, so you are clearly saying that the text of the NT is not reliable and so the quotes cannot be relied upon to be accurate. OK, but then, having basically claimed that we cannot rely on the text of the NT, you claim His message can be understood. Wow. If we can't know what his message was, then how can ANYONE understand it? For that matter, if the NT is that unreliable, then why haven't you thrown yours away? Why would you care about what Jesus might have said or not said? You have closed the door behind yourself and locked yourself in. Oh this one is going to be great to show to youth groups! You are a never ceasing flow of valuable material.

What an ignorant statement.

As I've told you more than once, the words are mistranslated from the original Greek.

Only the two or three that you happen not to like. And the fact that virtually no one who is an expert in the field agrees with you is pretty sobering.

Only the two or three that you happen not to like. And the fact that virtually no one who is an expert in the field agrees with you is pretty sobering.

You're certainly not an expert. You have never given a rational reply to the mistranslation. Citing others who have repeated the error is NOT a valid reply.

Citing other people who are actually scholars and have spent a lifetime getting to know the subject is not a valid reply? Well, now I understand how you have arrived at this point.

Citing other people who are actually scholars and have spent a lifetime getting to know the subject is not a valid reply? Well, now I understand how you have arrived at this point.

Read my lips. Citing those who repeat the errors is not a valid reply.

Read my lips. Refusing to accept the verdict of experts is sheer arrogance. But call them and offer your services. Might be tough. I'm pretty sure they have never heard of you.

I'm pretty sure they have never heard of you.

I'm more than sure they've never heard of YOU!

Yeah, but I know it. I trust their expert knowledge. You are still under the illusion that you know better than they do.

I trust their expert knowledge.


You shouldn't be so trusting. Use a little of your God-given brain and trust in yourself. You might learn something.

The deal is this. The word translated "eternal" bothers you. You have come up with an alternative translation as used by Robert Young. "46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during." Now that's an extraordinarliy minorty translation, but even if we accept it, it presents several problems. 1. If hell is some temporary span, then so is heaven, for it is the same word in both instances. 2. Jesus still plainly says he is going to send people to hell, so you haven't solved that (for you) problem. 3. It is depicted by Jesus as a fiery place of torment for the unrighteous. 4. It was prepared for the devil, but if it's only temporary, then the devil himself will get out at some point.

So it seems that you are reduced to telling people that they should do whatever it is you think they should do lest they go to hell for merely an "age-during". Still doesn't sound good to me.

But even at that, the hundreds of committed scholars who have chosen to render the word as "eternal" trumps your two or three in spades. So if given the choice between believing you or believing them, I'm going with them. I think your argument for aionios is pretty lame (my word!), as is your dubious explanation for why nearly all scholars disagree with you.

Same thing with hell. Given the choice between believing you and believing what Jesus said, I'm going with Jesus.

Sorry. Didn't see your comment. Did I see instances of racism? Some, but as far as negative impacts on the lives of my students, it was miles away from being the biggest problem. Fatherless homes was far and away the biggest problem. I would say that an insufficient emphasis on the value of learning, beginning as toddlers all the way to seniors, would be in second place. People would get upset about our state flag. Well, I agree it should be changed and voted in favor of changing it, but changing the flag will not change the direction or prospects of a single life. Creating strong families would do far, far more good.

It's not an easy thing to comfort those that have gone through traumatic life changing events, let alone guide them to good orderly direction, when they don't want to follow, for whatever reason. This isn't just a black problem, and all the conditions you criticize black people for are found throughout the society. I know it wasn't your intention to suggest only black people have the issues you cited, but I will note its suffered in America, and we have few solutions. Denying the results of racism or even acknowledging it though JL isn't a viable solution either.

I respectfully hope you can consider that despite 400 years of suppression and racist antics and tactics we continue forward and most black people will not fall for confessing our sins while we bear the sins of others. The same goes for the dufus claim of being our savior because we do have a lot to lose by listening to him sell us the snake oil. So I won't argue your observations, just your interpretations and approach to those observations.

Now send me some money for all those jobs black people did for free in building a nation and defending it always, while the whites take credit for it and enjoy the fruits of our labor, and to this day have no problem preaching about our problems and your solutions, instead of listening when we say your solutions are lip service to keep your knee on our necks literally.

Back pay for services rendered and cruelty and atrocities suffered, then maybe we can heal and move forward. No fruit accepted.

all the conditions you criticize black people for are found throughout the society.That is very true and I agree completely. Any group that wants to can make great progress by learning to value the things that are truly valuable.


Now send me some money for all those jobs black people did for free in building a nation and defending it always, while the whites take credit for it and enjoy the fruits of our labor, and to this day have no problem preaching about our problems and your solutions, instead of listening when we say your solutions are lip service to keep your knee on our necks literally.And now the truth comes out. Why would I send you money? No one's knee is on your neck. But while we're at it, should you send money to the ancestors of the 350,000 union troops who died in the Civil War?


Back pay for services rendered and cruelty and atrocities suffered, then maybe we can heal and move forward. No fruit accepted.Nah. If some level of reparations are paid, then it will be another excuse. That's the problem with never wanting to face up to your own problems. It's always someone else's fault. Someone else should do it for me. I can't do things by myself.

That is very true and I agree completely. Any group that wants to can make great progress by learning to value the things that are truly valuable.

Okay! Just wanted to verify it ain't just black people with issues.


And now the truth comes out. Why would I send you money? No one's knee is on your neck. But while we're at it, should you send money to the ancestors of the 350,000 union troops who died in the Civil War?

What! They owe civil war soldiers too? Now that's bad. maybe the guys that started the Civil War should pay up. Oh wait you CAN"T! The south has been poor since they lost that war! They depend on welfare!


Nah. If some level of reparations are paid, then it will be another excuse. That's the problem with never wanting to face up to your own problems. It's always someone else's fault. Someone else should do it for me. I can't do things by myself.

Back pay is fair for the reasons I cited and let's just forget all the excuses for with holding payment for services rendered, blood shed, and sweat popped! Pay up you deadbeat!

The deal is this. The word translated "eternal" bothers you. You have come up with an alternative translation as used by Robert Young. "46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during." Now that's an extraordinarliy minorty translation, but even if we accept it, it presents several problems. 1. If hell is some temporary span, then so is heaven, for it is the same word in both instances. 2. Jesus still plainly says he is going to send people to hell, so you haven't solved that (for you) problem. 3. It is depicted by Jesus as a fiery place of torment for the unrighteous. 4. It was prepared for the devil, but if it's only temporary, then the devil himself will get out at some point.

So it seems that you are reduced to telling people that they should do whatever it is you think they should do lest they go to hell for merely an "age-during". Still doesn't sound good to me.

But even at that, the hundreds of committed scholars who have chosen to render the word as "eternal" trumps your two or three in spades. So if given the choice between believing you or believing them, I'm going with them. I think your argument for aionios is pretty lame (my word!), as is your dubious explanation for why nearly all scholars disagree with you.

Same thing with hell. Given the choice between believing you and believing what Jesus said, I'm going with Jesus.
Endless religious arguments again, this is not the religion discussion page. Yes, by all means go with Jesus and keep to the simplicity of the message. Jesus was not concerned about what the scholars of his day thought but kept to his message

Pay up you deadbeat!Funny. Go to work and become a millionaire. Stop expecting others to give you anything. To be sure, slavery was a terrible part of our history, but it's been gone for 150 years. Put the pedal to the metal and go!

What part of back pay for services rendered are you not understanding? Seeking to ignore past actions of atrocity and cruelty is but an indictment of your inability to listen while you try to impose your solutions on those you dismiss and ignore.

The bigger act of cruelty is the unsympathetic and unapologetic manner in which you try to inflict your solutions on others. The bill for such actions has come do and none of your excuses means squat. Stop the preaching* and start reaching for that wallet** and una$$ some loot.***


*You JL specifically

**You JL should advocate for fairness and justice denied for centuries.

***Failure to pay up in a timely manner may be subject to further interest fees and legal actions.

This is an attempt to collect a DEBT and any information can be used to collect that DEBT!

To be sure, slavery was a terrible part of our history, but it's been gone for 150 years.

And what replaced it? Years of glory and joy? No, 150 years of lynchings, Jim Crow, segregation, discrimination, and systemic, institutional racism. For a supposed teacher, you exhibit an enormous historical ignorance.

Never said it was all peaches and cream. It was hard for a lot of people, but that has been largely corrected, so it's time for each person to get busy and make something of his/her life.

Never said it was all peaches and cream. It was hard for a lot of people, but that has been largely corrected, so it's time for each person to get busy and make something of his/her life.

Largely corrected says the 60 year old white guy. A long way to go says the 60 year old black guy. Recent events shows the 60 year old black guy may be right. The diverse protests across the land say so too. When the words of the founding documents ring true for everyone then we have finally lived up to those aspirations and everybody can get busy building a life that they can be proud of.

In the meantime pay your bill so we can get beyond all that history of cruelty and atrocities. You can't sweep it under a rug like it didn't happen. Nor even claim it's the past when it's still happening.

A long way to go says the 60 year old black guy.Be specific. What do you want to see change?

I wish I was 60.

Never said it was all peaches and cream. It was hard for a lot of people, but that has been largely corrected, so it's time for each person to get busy and make something of his/her life.

Unbelievable description of the 400-year black experience in America.

After 17 years working in the black ghetto, you have apparently learned nothing from those 17 years. I find it hard to credit you with those years when you can post something so outrageous as you have done above.

"never peaches and cream" - "hard for a lot of people" - "largely corrected" - "time to get busy" ...............

The mind boggles!

I'll let you go work in inner city schools for even five days and then come back and we can talk about, that is once you have received a little education. Get off your couch and go do something productive.

Be specific. What do you want to see change?

I wish I was 60.

Before I answer, what have you heard, NOT observed in your 17 years in the inner city from those black people. What changes do THEY want?


I'll let you go work in inner city schools for even five days and then come back and we can talk about, that is once you have received a little education. Get off your couch and go do something productive.

Athos has proved quite well that you don't have to "get off the couch" to LISTEN to people.

PS-I know we are closer to 70 than 60! LOL, I deleted the "something" after 60 to make me feel better this morning. 8D

Before I answer, what have you heard, NOT observed in your 17 years in the inner city from those black people. What changes do THEY want?I would say they wanted to be treated fairly and with respect, to have greater opportunity, to be able to be safe on their own streets and homes.

Athos has proven he listens to Athos. Experience counts a lot more to me than talk.

Yeah, 60 does sound better than 60 something. Good point!

Probably the biggest lesson I have learned in life is that given the choice between changing me and changing others, my best bet by far is to change me. As far as my own life goes, I does waste much time in trying to get others to adjust to me.

Athos has proven he listens to Athos.

As usual you have nothing to say when you get caught in a demonstrably idiotic post - except diversionary insults.

It's time for you to get your head out of the dufus' arse. You got it so far up there, it might be permanant.

As far as my own life goes, I does waste much time in trying to get others to adjust to me.

all of your time here is devoted to exactly that, stop fooling yourself

You must learn to read much more carefully, Clete. You're being careless. The key phrase was, "As far as my own life goes." What you guys think means very little to me on a personal level. It effects my life none at all. These discussions have to do with national matters, or just issues of truth. It's more on the level of exchanging ideas.

Athos, if you want to be listened to, then get off your couch and actually go do something useful and productive in the inner city of wherever you live. Until then, it's just a load of weak opinion. And stop your shameless copying. Now you're copying Tal! Have an original thought.

I would say they wanted to be treated fairly and with respect, to have greater opportunity, to be able to be safe on their own streets and homes.

BINGO! Wondering if you can listen! I feel better about you. We share a skill in being able to piss people off don't we? 8)


Probably the biggest lesson I have learned in life is that given the choice between changing me and changing others, my best bet by far is to change me. As far as my own life goes, I does waste much time in trying to get others to adjust to me.

I learned this lesson the hard way for sure, but giving people time to adjust to you is a virtue in my view and gave me time to understand myself and learn to understand others.

Right now at this point in my life it irks me most and what I would change is stop people from peeing on my head and believing I deserve it! I accomplish that by standing tall enough to look them in the eye and say "I ain't going for it". If they back off fine! If not then I DEAL with it.

You already know I don't like liars and bullies, and will NEVER back down from that challenge. Hope that answers your question, because if you leave people be, they will handle their own business without others exploiting, suppressing or oppressing them for their own gain. Especially not from our own institutions we depend on, so we can live up to the goals as written in our founding documents, and build that more perfect union.

Athos has proved quite well that you don't have to "get off the couch" to LISTEN to people.

I'm heartened by the genuine dialogue that appears to be taking place for the first time in America. As shown on the cable TV channels, both black and white are protesting together and honest communication is starting. It's apparent whites need to understand the black experience in more realistic ways than in the past.

It is to be hoped that much good will come out of the three horrific examples of anti-black police brutality reported in May (including the ex-policeman and his son) that is continuing to shock the world.

Ex-NFL player Emmanuel Acho has started a dialogue on video which was on CNN this morning and promises to be of great value. One of many, I hope.

https://barrettsportsmedia.com/2020/06/02/emmanuel-acho-launches-uncomfortable-conversations-with-a-black-man/

We could have started that dialogue years ago especially after Colin Kaepernick took a knee to highlight the subject. Guess we weren't ready.

Had to use a different link Athos because of virus issues.

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/ex-nfl-player-emmanuel-acho-on-his-new-series-uncomfortable-conversations-with-a-black-man/

Very articulate you brother.

We could have started that dialogue years ago especially after Colin Kaepernick took a knee to highlight the subject. Guess we weren't ready.

Not everybody went along with the symbolism of the national anthem.

The "knee on the neck" video touches anybody who is a human being.

We could have started that dialogue years ago especially after Colin Kaepernick took a knee to highlight the subject. Guess we weren't ready.Why not start it here? I'd still like to know, specifically, what changes you want to see take place, Tal.


It is to be hoped that much good will come out of the three horrific examples of anti-black police brutality reported in May (including the ex-policeman and his son) that is continuing to shock the world.So it was actually two. But at any rate, we can also hope to see some dialogue about the 400 or so black people murdered in May by other black people. We can hope they do not die in vain. Perhaps we can include the many businesses burned to the ground by rioters whose innocent owners, a large number of whom were black, are now bankrupt, or we can discuss the shooting and abuse of policemen just doing their jobs, or the damage inflicted upon an already fragile economy. Perhaps those issues deserve discussion??

So it was actually two.

Three.


But at any rate, we can also hope to see some dialogue about the 400 or so black people murdered in May by other black people. We can hope they do not die in vain. Perhaps we can include the many businesses burned to the ground by rioters whose innocent owners, a large number of whom were black, are now bankrupt, or we can discuss the shooting and abuse of policemen just doing their jobs, or the damage inflicted upon an already fragile economy. Perhaps those issues deserve discussion??

You actually enjoy having your head up the dufus' arse, don't you?

Thank you for that well reasoned, civil contribution. Now, anyone with anything intelligent to say?

Why not start it here? I'd still like to know, specifically, what changes you want to see take place, Tal.

We talked about taking the knee when it happened, but these latest events are but extensions of issues that went unaddressed for an awful long time so I think we start with accountability from law enforcement, so it's no longer swept under a rug, and end that abuse of destroying dignity and respect for those that should be served and protected. Laws and policies and practices that needed reform should be done. I've expressed extensively on these pages of other economic abuses heaped on my peeps through the institutional racism, and deeper, a class segregation that affects white folks as it does black folks, chief among them that trickle down economic model that puts a persons self worth and value into the hands of rich guys who hoard money. That in itself stops cold the necessary circulation of money required to eliminate poverty and strengthen a middle class that is tenuous at best. The real job creators through demand.


So it was actually two. But at any rate, we can also hope to see some dialogue about the 400 or so black people murdered in May by other black people. We can hope they do not die in vain.

You deal with black on black crime most effectively by dealing with poverty, and lack of opportunity pervasive in segregated societies (neighborhoods). If property taxes fund schools then do you think more black people owning a home is the key to have better schools? In this way a homeowner not a renter can better demand good schools for their kids and have the money to maintain a neighborhood against the gangs that grow from poverty running buck wild in the streets.

That's more empowering than an out of town cop coming in kicking butts because he can't tell the criminal from the citizen and is scared less for his life, just like the citizens. In addition why just have strange white cops cracking heads on strange black heads? Yeah that breeds a lot of trust and commitment doesn't it?

When I see a white cop cracking heads and killing black people, I always remember that could be me or mine instead of a stranger. What do you feel? The dirt bag had it coming? Hope not. That's the problem with racists. They don't see a human, but a criminal to abuse for a crime, so they stop, frisk, detain at will! Then there's the justice system where the average black guy can't even afford bail, so languishes in jail which does nobody any good.

Be careful dude don't get me started about the people in jail for jaywalking or some other nonsense charge, like a roach in his pocket.


Perhaps we can include the many businesses burned to the ground by rioters whose innocent owners, a large number of whom were black, are now bankrupt, or we can discuss the shooting and abuse of policemen just doing their jobs, or the damage inflicted upon an already fragile economy. Perhaps those issues deserve discussion??

Some of the looters are angry for whatever reason, some are criminals which. lets be clear have nothing to do with the peaceful protestors, and if you're even suggesting it's the peaceful protesters fault that people riot and loot, then maybe stopping the reason for the protesting would stop looting and rioting better than cops!

Whose fault is it really that nobody listened and did NOTHING about it?

That was a lot. You mentioned school funding, but numerous examples show that school funding is generally not the problem. The D.C. schools are extremely well funded, but perform very poorly. In our area, the city schools are much better funded, and very low performing.

I don't think anyone is in jail for jaywalking. Relatively few people are jailed for drug use. It would be good to see the issue of bail discussed. I would think it depends on what the charge is and the person's past criminal history, if any.

I don't think there is ever, ever any excuse for someone to destroy property belonging to someone else. It should always be treated as low-class, criminal behavior and never, never justified.

What specific laws would you like to see changed?

Not everybody went along with the symbolism of the national anthem.

The "knee on the neck" video touches anybody who is a human being.

A horrific video is worth a thousand words and actions. Did you know it was a vet who suggested Colin take a knee rather than sit the bench? Taking a knee is a sign of respect. Noticed the cops kneeling with protestors? An act of respect, unity, and understanding.

Taking a knee would not be a sign of respect when the National Anthem is being played.

I still hope you will outline what specific laws need to be changed.

Taking a knee would not be a sign of respect when the National Anthem is being played.

I still hope you will outline what specific laws need to be changed.

That's you're opinion not mine which is as valid as yours, and I did outline my changes and they need to be codified nationally. Did you know that choke and strangleholds were NOT banned by many states and localities. We can change that right now! Even where it is banned cops still use it with impunity!

https://reason.com/2016/07/08/police-use-of-force-policies-choke/

Think the dufus and all his outrage would get with that? I don't.

Did you know that choke and strangleholds were NOT banned by many states and localities. We can change that right now! Even where it is banned cops still use it with impunity!Not sure they should be. If I'm in a fight for my life with a criminal, I would like to have all the advantages I can have. Now once the suspect is down and cuffed, then yeah, the fight's over then.

Well we have two videos of people choked out by cops after they were down and said they couldn't breathe, one in cuffs. 8 minutes is a LONG time to choke a guy. Wonder about any other such incidences not be video taped or where cops turned off the body cams. Another thing that should change...fire a cop who engages after they turn those cams off.

https://twitter.com/davidbegnaud/status/1268716877355810818?s=21

Did you know it was a vet who suggested Colin take a knee rather than sit the bench? Taking a knee is a sign of respect. Noticed the cops kneeling with protestors? An act of respect, unity, and understanding.

You're correct about the respect shown by Colin's taking a knee. He was referencing police brutality while the national anthem/(flag) played. The majority consensus (at least the NFL fans) seemed to be that he was being disrespectful to the national anthem/(flag).

A dialogue on race begins with understanding/discussing/preventing excessive police violence against blacks who are often unarmed and peaceable as several videos have shown over the past few years. Not a few blacks have been murdered by police, often later exonerated by white juries on flimsy defense arguments - "I feared for my life" - as the young unarmed black man was running away before he was shot in the back.

A word to the wise -- there are members here who falsely say they are interested in a dialogue. They are NOT. What they ARE interested in is disagreeing/debunking whatever others may bring up that doesn't fit in with their biases. They do not search for solutions to ancient problems. Rather, they wish to confront others searching for solutions with their own criticisms of black culture that are the usual positions of white supremacists.

Well we have two videos of people choked out by cops after they were down and said they couldn't breathe, one in cuffs. 8 minutes is a LONG time to choke a guy. Wonder about any other such incidences not be video taped or where cops turned off the body cams. Another thing that should change...fire a cop who engages after they turn those cams off.Isn't that what I said about choke holds??? What's the disagreement?

As to the bodycams, they certainly should be on. My understanding on this, and it could be wrong, is that the bodycams stay off when the officer is in the car since it would not be useful to film the steering wheel. But at any rate, they certainly should be on once the officer steps out of the car. If I was a cop, I'd WANT mine on.

Isn't that what I said about choke holds??? What's the disagreement?

Relax, I could actually see one cop defending his life, but that hasn't been the case to my knowledge. More so its baffling that multiple cops would need a choke hold or multiple shots to bring down an unarmed person on their own property, or anywhere else for that matter.

More so its baffling that multiple cops would need a choke hold or multiple shots to bring down an unarmed person on their own property, or anywhere else for that matter.That is a good question, but it's worthwhile to note that those cases are very infrequent. Now the 150 black people who are murdered every every week, unnoticed, never spoken about, and depressingly ignored by practically everyone, is a constant that we should respond to.

Don't you think that black on black crime should be responded to just like any other crime in America? Don't you agree that police brutality is more frequent than is reported, if reported but has been a generational cry in the black community. Just because it hasn't reached your ears and awareness doesn't mean it doesn't happen as we say, so stop comparing and start LISTENING. Or maybe you have heard this cry for years and dismissed it because no videos capture it.

I'll assume you know what a food desert is in an urban community . Minneapolis had a bunch of them already . They can add 8 more neighborhoods since the riots and looting in support of the George Floyd murder protests .


There’s a 6-mile long commercial corridor in South Minneapolis called Lake Street, and it has been destroyed.
“We no longer have pharmacies in our community,” said ZoeAna Martinez, who works for the Lake Street Council, a business association. “We no longer have gas stations as well. Our largest grocery stores are also gone,” Martinez said. “Right now, our community, we live in a food desert, which happened overnight.”


https://www.marketplace.org/2020/06/04/neighborhoods-where-stores-were-destroyed-become-food-deserts-overnight/

Add to that ,public transportation is down and the morons in the City Council are seriously considering defunding the police dept . Who in their right mind would make the investment to open again in a place where they are not guaranteed the basic protections required ?

Typical conservative rhetoric, you need those head busting cops to keep the local sheeple in order and the whole black community is infested with criminals. Great job you've done serving and protecting. Not a peep from you on cleaning out the racists bad cops you send into those neighborhoods though. Why is that? The cop who killed Floyd was a training officer with two neebies showing them how it's done.

Address that since that's what this is about. Spare me the excuses to keep those attitudes antics and behaviors going. The world is watching.

500 businesses in Minneapolis were destroyed ,looted ,vandalized . Yeah those are the innocent victims that concern me.
Yeah the world is watching .
https://www.marketplace.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/walgreen.jpg?w=600

What the world is seeing is the manifestation of 50 years and $ trillions in failed progressive urban policies .

"500 businesses in Minneapolis were destroyed ,looted ,vandalized" by mostly WHITE opportunists (look at the videos and photos).

I did not bring up race in either of my comments but you and tal did . Antifa ?
They added the graffiti 'I can't breathe' for emphasis .

Don't you agree that police brutality is more frequent than is reported, if reported but has been a generational cry in the black community. Just because it hasn't reached your ears and awareness doesn't mean it doesn't happen as we say, so stop comparing and start LISTENING. So if the facts don't support you, you just assume it is worse than is being reported? On what basis?


Typical conservative rhetoric, you need those head busting cops to keep the local sheeple in order and the whole black community is infested with criminals.No one said that or anything close to it. Honestly, if there is any justice to be found anywhere in this world, your house and property will be next. Then we can listen to you shedding tears about how the police that you despise so much did not arrive on time.


"500 businesses in Minneapolis were destroyed ,looted ,vandalized" by mostly WHITE opportunists (look at the videos and photos). Idle speculation.

So if the facts don't support you, you just assume it is worse than is being reported? On what basis?

Because at the end of the day you go home to your little community, but black people stay in theirs. Who should we believe about what goes on in whose community?


No one said that or anything close to it. Honestly, if there is any justice to be found anywhere in this world, your house and property will be next. Then we can listen to you shedding tears about how the police that you despise so much did not arrive on time.


Don't hold your breathe. For the record I've never said I hated cops, just the racists bad ones that do exist. I want THEM out, don't YOU? Why not?

For the record I've never said I hated cops, just the racists bad ones that do exist. I want THEM out, don't YOU? Why not?I absolutely do want them out, but I'm careful to not make wild statements like this one that gives the impression I hate cops. "Typical conservative rhetoric, you need those head busting cops to keep the local sheeple in order and the whole black community is infested with criminals."


Because at the end of the day you go home to your little community, but black people stay in theirs. Who should we believe about what goes on in whose community?Which is why we keep statistics and use data instead of relying on our impressions and emotions.

Tal, just for the record, I do understand some of your protests. For most of our history, black people's lives have been less valued than the lives of whites, and some of that has carried over to this time. There are people who are prejudiced against minorities, and there is the very occasional (in my view) instances of serious police misconduct, so I get that. Where we differ is in how much responsibility the black community bears for some of the problems they face, and which of those problems are truly wide-spread and very serious versus which ones are a good bit less so.

Just for the record, it's not just a black problem. As long as you think it is, then you effectively divide and conquer and can dismiss the real problems besetting AMERICA. That of class, and the pattern and practice, of segregation, and discrimination.

Why would so many white people be joining the black people protesting police brutality?

the real problems besetting AMERICA. That of class, and the pattern and practice, of segregation, and discrimination.You said it was not just a black problem, and then you list problems that DO seem to be black problems, or at least racial problems, such as segregation and discrimination, so perhaps I don't understand exactly where you're trying to go with this. What exactly, in your view, IS the problem?

You didn't answer my question,

Why would so many white people be joining the black people protesting police brutality?

Must have missed it.

I'm sure at least some of them think it's the right thing to do.

Now for my question. What, in your view, is the real problem to be solved?

I'm sure at least some of them think it's the right thing to do.

Now for my question. What, in your view, is the real problem to be solved?
here's my two cents worth, the problem to be solved is equality, it is a problem that existed for centuries and despite various proclamations has not been truly implemented, the old attitudes of superiority obviously remain, deeply rooted in the culture. Had the africans been free settlers, coming to the americas as others had things might have been different, but manifest destiny for the Europeans to rule remains. the Europeans have continually forced their superiority upon other races, the indians, the africans, the chinese, even now the hispanics as well. This is not about blacks so much as it is about deeply rooted attitudes of racial superiority, the american master race

Even if I agreed with that, and I most certainly don't, it would still leave open the question. How would that be solved?

This is not about blacks so much as it is about deeply rooted attitudes of racial superiority, the american master race
I'd change one word -- "the white master race."

Now, why do whites too often consider themselves that?

You didn't answer my question,

Why would so many white people be joining the black people protesting police brutality?

Must have missed it.

My take is it goes beyond doing the right thing for some. They feel like they're in the same boat. Or have shared experiences. Remember what I said about CLASS?


I'm sure at least some of them think it's the right thing to do.

Now for my question. What, in your view, is the real problem to be solved?

Too many poor people.

here's my two cents worth, the problem to be solved is equality, it is a problem that existed for centuries and despite various proclamations has not been truly implemented, the old attitudes of superiority obviously remain, deeply rooted in the culture. Had the africans been free settlers, coming to the americas as others had things might have been different, but manifest destiny for the Europeans to rule remains. the Europeans have continually forced their superiority upon other races, the indians, the africans, the chinese, even now the hispanics as well. This is not about blacks so much as it is about deeply rooted attitudes of racial superiority, the american master race

Our founding documents say everyone is equal, but in reality some are more equal than others. At the top of the food chain rich landowners have always dominated. Hundreds of years later guess who is still at the top of the food chain. I don't think rich land owners care about race as much as they do wealth, but we can't have poor blacks and whites united in their own interest now can we? They may decide changes that benefit them more than rich guys was possible.

Imagine that, poor people and minorities having power to change stuff in their favor.

Too many poor people.You have outlined the problem, but not the solution(s). Reducing out of wedlock births would help A LOT. Stopping the terrible policy of forcing poor families to send their children to terrible schools would help a lot. Greatly reducing the criminal activities of young black men would go a long way. Getting the message across to men that fathering children outside of marriage is disgraceful would help a lot. Teaching our children that the world does not owe them a living, so they better figure out how they are going to earn money as adults would help a lot. Beginning once again to honor and support the two parent family would help a great deal. Preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ helps enormously. Stopping the endless harping about the supposedly widespread practice of police murdering black people would be productive. And here's the good news. Most of that does not require the help of the government. "Rich land owners" could not stop it or even slow it down. It's what poor people could do all on their own, but it would need our support and encouragement because it would be a slow and difficult process. It's much easier to just want the feds to throw some money at it, but if the past fifty years is any indicator, that will not work.

You have outlined the problem, but not the solution(s). Reducing out of wedlock births would help A LOT. Stopping the terrible policy of forcing poor families to send their children to terrible schools would help a lot. Greatly reducing the criminal activities of young black men would go a long way. Getting the message across to men that fathering children outside of marriage is disgraceful would help a lot. Teaching our children that the world does not owe them a living, so they better figure out how they are going to earn money as adults would help a lot. Beginning once again to honor and support the two parent family would help a great deal. Preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ helps enormously. Stopping the endless harping about the supposedly widespread practice of police murdering black people would be productive. And here's the good news. Most of that does not require the help of the government. "Rich land owners" could not stop it or even slow it down. It's what poor people could do all on their own, but it would need our support and encouragement because it would be a slow and difficult process. It's much easier to just want the feds to throw some money at it, but if the past fifty years is any indicator, that will not work.

jl read the statistics, prevention of out of wedlock births is already the highest single reason for deaths in this world, surely you don't think more abortion is a good thing? so what do you propose? mass sterilisation, and who would you select? not your republican power base

jl read the statistics, prevention of out of wedlock births is already the highest single reason for deaths in this world, surely you don't think more abortion is a good thing?No, I don't. A return to basic morality and a change in public beliefs is what I am advocating for. It is not political. At one time, a few decades ago and before abortion was widespread, and even before the BC pill, out of wedlock births were rare because it was generally believed that sex was reserved for marriage, or at the very least it was understood that becoming pregnant outside of marriage was a lousy idea. Sex had not yet become the casual affair it is now.

I have outlined my solution to poverty many times, maybe you missed it, but with all due respect good luck telling minorities to work hard and stop complaining and do as the white man tells you. Maybe we will use the power of the vote to get what we want! It's not like you're listening, or believing any way.

Relax and work on you're awareness because going backwards in time ain't happening.

At one time, a few decades ago and before abortion was widespread, and even before the BC pill, out of wedlock births were rare because it was generally believed that sex was reserved for marriage, or at the very least it was understood that becoming pregnant outside of marriage was a lousy idea. Sex had not yet become the casual affair it is now.
Again, your memory of the "good old days" astounds me! Whether I lived in a rural area or near a city, sex was NOT generally reserved for marriage. Stories were legion about e.g., "Sally" who snuck off to a back-street abortionist or "Charlene" whose Aunt Becky "helped" her get rid of "something" or "Margaret" who was sent to live for six or seven months (hmm...) with an out-of-state relative.

Maybe you, JL, were Mr. Respectful, but far too many guys my girlfriends and I dated, after a few dates, ended up taking us to secluded parking spots -- a bluff overlooking a moonlit lake, a dark and empty warehouse parking lot, the basement rec room after his parents and siblings went to bed ("Come downstairs with me to see our new ping-pong table and dartboard!").

Yes, sex, especially before marriage, has always been a casual affair and greatly sought after.

Stopping the terrible policy of forcing poor families to send their children to terrible schools would help a lot.
Why are the schools terrible??? I say it's too often because the teacher training is awful. I attended four years at a well-respected teachers college where I learned way too much about math and literature and science and history. We students begged for practical courses on how to manage a classroom of thirty kids of various skills and abilities and behavior patterns. "Nope," they told us, "you have to learn calculus and the history of Albania. And you'll figure out how to teach once you're in charge of a classroom." Um, it doesn't work that way.

I have outlined my solution to poverty many times, maybe you missed it, but with all due respect good luck telling minorities to work hard and stop complaining and do as the white man tells you.You have complained many times. You have not given any solutions. Work hard and stop complaining? Yeah. Wouldn't want to do anything like that. You know, practices that have worked for centuries.

WG, I'm not going with my memory. I am referring to data. Anecdotal stories are completely useless.

As to schools, if you ever actually work in an inner city school, then you can come back and tell us about it. If you want someone to punch you in the mouth, then go to those schools and tell the teachers that it's all their fault. When you say that, you establish that you are strictly guessing.

Now having said that, you do have a valid point in talking about teacher training, but not, I think, in the way you imagine. The generally taught methods of classroom management are weak, weak, weak. I used to tell teachers that the classrooms were their kingdoms and they were the kings. We expected students to do what they were told and I expected teachers to supervise their students. We did a lot of group work and it wasn't the rule of a tyrant, but rebellion was not tolerated. Curse a teacher? I wouldn't recommend it.

You have complained many times. You have not given any solutions. Work hard and stop complaining? Yeah. Wouldn't want to do anything like that. You know, practices that have worked for centuries.

Circulating more money to more people is viable, and telling someone to stop complaining against wrong doing and long standing discriminatory policies and practices is insulting. That's after centuries of abuses, cruelty, and atrocities so some rich landowner could peacock in high society. Sadly the cruelty and atrocities didn't stop when the slavery ended, even after another century of "complaining". That's okay JL, keep preach and not listen.


As to schools, if you ever actually work in an inner city school, then you can come back and tell us about it. If you want someone to punch you in the mouth, then go to those schools and tell the teachers that it's all their fault. When you say that, you establish that you are strictly guessing.

Now having said that, you do have a valid point in talking about teacher training, but not, I think, in the way you imagine. The generally taught methods of classroom management are weak, weak, weak. I used to tell teachers that the classrooms were their kingdoms and they were the kings. We expected students to do what they were told and I expected teachers to supervise their students. We did a lot of group work and it wasn't the rule of a tyrant, but rebellion was not tolerated. Curse a teacher? I wouldn't recommend it.

Are you guys still under a consent decree because you thought jail was the place for unruly kids? I can imagine kids and parents "complaining" to a higher authority with your methods and they did.

Don't blame anyone but yourselves for that and well you know I've read the whole sordid public account of YOUR actions.

WG, I'm not going with my memory. I am referring to data. Anecdotal stories are completely useless.
Accurate abortion statistics weren't kept back then. It was a case-by-case situation, usually hidden from society.

As to schools, if you ever actually work in an inner city school, then you can come back and tell us about it. If you want someone to punch you in the mouth, then go to those schools and tell the teachers that it's all their fault. When you say that, you establish that you are strictly guessing.
I have taught in an inner-city school. As a public library volunteer coordinator, I've coordinated with county officials who assigned community service jobs to both black and white (and Asian and Filipino and Latinx) teens and adults, and put them in my capable hands to do various jobs at the library where I worked. I know what black kids are up against.

Now having said that, you do have a valid point in talking about teacher training, but not, I think, in the way you imagine. The generally taught methods of classroom management are weak, weak, weak. I used to tell teachers that the classrooms were their kingdoms and they were the kings. We expected students to do what they were told and I expected teachers to supervise their students. We did a lot of group work and it wasn't the rule of a tyrant, but rebellion was not tolerated. Curse a teacher? I wouldn't recommend it.
"You do have a valid point in talking about teacher training but..." BUT what? You said pretty much what I did. We lacked hands-on, role-playing instruction as part of our teacher training. It wasn't REAL teacher training; it was "let's fill their heads with all sorts of non-essential facts, information they'll never need and use."

I have. I know what black kids are up against.Elaborate. What subject and how many years? Where?

Amazing how teachers with the same training do well in middle class schools. Explanation??

Elaborate.
I added to my previous response. Please read it.

Amazing how teachers with the same training do well in middle class schools. Explanation??
I don't understand your comment and demand for an explanation.

I don't understand your comment and demand for an explanation.

This is what he does. He asks for details from you of whatever is being discussed, then he finds fault with those details and claims his experience/knowledge is superior to yours. He's not a seeker of truth, he's a troll who feeds on arguments and disputes.

His latest tactic (on race) is blaming the victim. He talks about the crime and current difficulties of black folks while completely ignoring 4 centuries of the black experience in the US. He demands solutions yet offers none of his own except the hackneyed ones we've all heard from racists for years.

When he is advised to pay attention to what blacks are saying all over the media - especially in these critical days when so much proof of excessive police violence against blacks is shown constantly on video - he ignores the advice and refuses to enter a dialogue and just returns to his worn comments that serve on one.

It's amazing that towns that are predominantly white have white protestors marching for the first time. But he just ignores that. Not for him to be part of the solution. He prefers the 1950s when segregation was the rule and blacks "knew their place".

Even in Europe, they're protesting. Germany, London, Italy, and all the way from Australia to Brazil to Africa and the Middle East.

Now he will post the usual nasties when he is called on the carpet. Most of us are used to them by now.

Sad. Very sad. When the truth won't work, then just make things up.

I asked, "What subject and how many years? Where?"

Subject taught in inner city school. Public library volunteer coordinator? Not real clear.
How many years? No answer.
Where? No answer.

Why do teachers with the same training succeed when in non inner-city schools? No answer.

Didn't demand an answer. Just a simple, thoughtful question. Answering is up to you. It's not a big deal.

I asked, "What subject and how many years? Where?"
Why the third degree?

Public library volunteer coordinator? Not real clear.
How many years? No answer.
Where? No answer.
You didn't ask until now.

For fifteen years, I was a library volunteer coordinator, matching a total of 25-30 volunteers (plus, at our library, disinterested and even resistant, community service workers) with library jobs that suited their skill set and benefited the library. I made every effort to ensure that they each felt comfortable with their jobs and fully understood their responsibilities. Meanwhile, I was also the head cataloger.

Why do teachers with the same training succeed when in non inner-city schools? No answer.
This is the first time you asked this.

Didn't demand an answer. Just a simple, thoughtful question. Answering is up to you. It's not a big deal.
Huh? When?

How dare those inner city folks rebel against your superior breeding and training. They should stop complaining and do as they're told.

Please engage sarcasm font to max degree.

I posted, "I asked, 'What subject and how many years? Where?'" That was my exact question I asked several posts earlier. Your reply? "You didn't ask until now." And as it turns out, according to your reply, you have never taught a subject in an inner city school classroom unless, of course, you count a library as an inner city school. That's why I ask for clarifications. I certainly don't discount your experiences and I accept that you did well, but coordinating volunteers is not teaching.

Also, several posts ago, I asked this. "Amazing how teachers with the same training do well in middle class schools. Explanation??" When I repeated the question above, only slightly reworded, your reply? "This is the first time you asked this." So as of now, asked twice, answered zero times.

It's really my fault. I should have known better.


How dare those inner city folks rebel against your superior breeding and training.I did it for 17 years. You go do it for even 17 days and we can talk about it. Until then, sarcasm is all you have.

I posted, "I asked, 'What subject and how many years? Where?'" That was my exact question I asked several posts earlier. Your reply? "You didn't ask until now." And as it turns out, according to your reply, you have never taught a subject in an inner city school classroom unless, of course, you count a library as an inner city school. That's why I ask for clarifications. I certainly don't discount your experiences and I accept that you did well, but coordinating volunteers is not teaching.
Yes, I've taught in an inner city school, but since you've decided to be so nasty about it, that's where my recounting ends.

Of course, a volunteer/cs worker coordinator is teaching! It's very hands-on teaching. I just didn't sit in my comfy office chair, waving a scepter. I had to interview each individual, figure out suitable jobs, train (TEACH!) them how to do the jobs, always be aware of how and what the volunteers/cs workers were doing, how well they were doing, be able to tactfully correct errors they were making, and instill in them a sense of pride that they were adding to their own store of knowledge and contributing to their community. (Gee, sounds like a teaching job to me...)

Also, several posts ago, I asked this. "Amazing how teachers with the same training do well in middle class schools. Explanation??" When I repeated the question above, only slightly reworded, your reply? "This is the first time you asked this." So as of now, asked twice, answered zero times.

It's really my fault. I should have known better.
Sorry. I didn't read back far enough apparently. Please, in the future, instead of using all that energy to retype, refer to an earlier post by its number. Don't restate it.

Being honest is not being nasty, but it's all good.

I don't think you have been a classroom teacher in an inner city school, but perhaps that was the case. At any rate, it is a different deal from coordinating volunteers. I would think it is dramatically different, and I would think that if you had even taught a year, you would know that for certain.

The public school board in Minneapolis voted unanimously to terminate its contract with the city’s police department. Other cities are considering same. How is that going to affect education in inner city schools ?

How is that going to affect education in inner city schools ?I would guess not much. They will simply hire private security. Might even save some money.

I don't think you have been a classroom teacher in an inner city school, but perhaps that was the case.
So now, I'm lying???

At any rate, it is a different deal from coordinating volunteers. I would think it is dramatically different, and I would think that if you had even taught a year, you would know that for certain.
Someday, if you're ever nice to me on a regular basis, I'll tell you how similar they are -- which I tried to explain already in my post #147. I'll tell you about John L. (black student) and Brandon M. (black cs worker). I used the same psychology and teaching methods for both of them with great results.

What a world we have! Corrupt cops, corrupt teachers, corrupt politicians, corrupt citizens? And this is the land of the free home of the brave? Please Scotty beam me up! These MoFos is crazy!

So now, I'm lying???Unanswered questions lead to doubts.

What a world we have! Corrupt cops, corrupt teachers, corrupt politicians, corrupt citizens? And this is the land of the free home of the brave? Please Scotty beam me up! These MoFos is crazy!

Tell me Tal, if you can? to what do you attribute to the cause of this corruption? I say it is the big I, this so called freedom where every man thinks he is better than his neighbour. You have drunk the koolaid and plunged your nation into chaos, and all in the name of rights. The rule of law is overturned and anarchy prevails, and nowhere is this more evident than in the leadership. The eighteenth century thinking doesn't serve any longer because there is only lip service to the ideals of equality. Every man is equal as long as his skin colour is the same, thus it was then and nothing has changed

You have no rights in Australia?

Every man thinks he is better than his neighbor? That is garbage. Of course it is true in some instances, just like it is everywhere, but it is not even close to being a major problem. You don't live here. How could you possibly know that such a thing is true?

Sad. Very sad. When the truth won't work, then just make things up.

Not much of a reply. It's always difficult to reply to the truth.

You have no rights in Australia?

Every man thinks he is better than his neighbor? That is garbage. Of course it is true in some instances, just like it is everywhere, but it is not even close to being a major problem. You don't live here. How could you possibly know that such a thing is true?

we don't have the right to be idiots and endanger our neighbour or to be corrupt, we have a different ethos. I read, I study history and what I see is some sort of slavish adherence to eighteenth century thinking. Just because some educated men laid down some basics but didn't believe they applied to them doesn't mean all the ideas were sound or applicable to life over two hundred years later. Capitalist society is a society based on greed and exploitation, unfortunately, socialism can suffer from the same failure and what works is something in the middle of absolute freedom and absolute control. Your president thinks he has absolute control and there are very few checks of what he does and what he says. Democracy is more than the election of a tyrant and what tyou are seeing is the will of the people, true democracy and the powerful seek to deny it

Capitalist society is a society based on greed and exploitation, unfortunately, socialism can suffer from the same failure and what works is something in the middle of absolute freedom and absolute control.Capitalism is not based on greed or exploitation. It is simply based on the private ownership of the economy. It is the greatest economic system in existence. It does need to be regulated lest greed lead to exploitation, but that can happen under socialism as well. There is a difference between a nanny state, which is what I think you prefer, and a capitalist economy. But don't worry. We will likely kill the goose that laid that golden egg, as will you.

Tell me Tal, if you can? to what do you attribute to the cause of this corruption? I say it is the big I, this so called freedom where every man thinks he is better than his neighbour. You have drunk the koolaid and plunged your nation into chaos, and all in the name of rights. The rule of law is overturned and anarchy prevails, and nowhere is this more evident than in the leadership. The eighteenth century thinking doesn't serve any longer because there is only lip service to the ideals of equality. Every man is equal as long as his skin colour is the same, thus it was then and nothing has changed

Racism is but the tool of those that seek control of the circulation of the money supply. Divide and conquer. Equality comes from access to capital. I think it has always been that way. The social order reflects that to a great extent, as we still adhere to a class system that promotes the uber rich, and working poor, and most in between. In that respect nothing has changed, except the willingness to be dependent on the uber rich and a free market capitalist system aided and abetted by the government functions they control. Since ancient times it's always been about the money, and who controls the supply of it.

Freedom and equality were for some and not others and that's just history. It was then and is now the great distraction for who controls the MONEY! All these side issues of religion and guns add to the distraction, and the rich keep control of the money supply and governments that write the rules to keep it that way. Stop and think what would happen in this country if the poorer black and whites completely dismantled the tools of racism, and focused instead on the economic issues that have made them the bottom tier of a great economic engine that has enriched many. What if they ignored the voices, patterns and policies that say they don't work hard enough to serve the corporate masters to deserve a LIVING wage?

What if anyone's well being didn't depend on the business cycle contractions? What if you could more than double the countries economy just by a simple thing that eliminates poverty? Never been done you say? We should ask ourselves why NOT? My answer is that the zeal for more money, power, and control of the money has corrupted and bankrupted our own common sense.

We never should have bought the snake oil from the huckster, no not the dufus, can't entirely blame him, but from those founding fathers that sold us the notions of freedom and didn't deliver.

What if you could more than double the countries economy just by a simple thing that eliminates poverty? Never been done you say? I guess it's too much to hope that you will share this idea?

https://scontent.fmem1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/102270021_3167978919932641_2552899648218681825_n.j pg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_sid=110474&_nc_ohc=LxGODyFkBTYAX90kwBr&_nc_ht=scontent.fmem1-2.fna&oh=1634825388892c38232ae2cc4afd0abb&oe=5F043CBC

They both piss me off! Despicable acts by despicable people usually does. How about YOU?

Except you talk about the pres unceasingly but never mentioned the church being burned. Hmmm.

I don't recall ever being angry at someone for holding up a Bible.

Except you talk about the pres unceasingly but never mentioned the church being burned. Hmmm.

I don't recall ever being angry at someone for holding up a Bible.

I've come out against criminals and the hypocrisy of the ilk of the dufus using the bible as a prop for his photo op.

Yeah. If he was a really sincere, committed Christian like Obama, then it would be different? (sarcasm meter set to 10.5)

Yeah. If he was a really sincere, committed Christian like Obama, then it would be different? (sarcasm meter set to 10.5)

Obama did a lot more than hold a bible for a photo op. No sarcasm, but you already know that!

Yeah. He advanced the causes of abortion and gay marriage. He allowed Americans to die in Benghazi. He doubled the national debt. Good job!!

Yeah. He advanced the causes of abortion and gay marriage.

More like he accepted the growing support for those issues, while the dufus has done nothing about either.


He allowed Americans to die in Benghazi. He doubled the national debt. Good job!!

People died, and people have died on the dufus watch as well, but Obama's debts allowed the US to rebuild after a GLOBAL financial crisis caused by rich dudes rip offs, and gave the dufus a solid foundation to grow faster. That's over with, as now we have well over 100,000 deaths from a virus and a destroyed economy and a huge debt on his watch.

Your old loony right wing talking points will fail to distract us from what's happening NOW given people in the streets traumatized by the images of a callous murder of a citizen by an officer sworn to serve and protect.

Obama's debts allowed the US to rebuild after a GLOBAL financial crisis caused by rich dudes rip offs, and gave the dufus a solid foundation to grow faster.What a convenient excuse.


people in the streets traumatized by the images of a callous murder of a citizen by an officer sworn to serve and protect.Talk about drama. Sheesh. Now if we could just get people interested in the fact that over half of the people murdered in the U.S. are black, and 90% murdered by another black person. I suppose you would say it's a shame they're not being murdered by white people. Then you could become upset about it.

Capitalism is not based on greed or exploitation. It is simply based on the private ownership of the economy. It is the greatest economic system in existence. It does need to be regulated lest greed lead to exploitation, but that can happen under socialism as well. There is a difference between a nanny state, which is what I think you prefer, and a capitalist economy. But don't worry. We will likely kill the goose that laid that golden egg, as will you.

Our goose is laying nicely, 29 years without a recession, and only Covid19 has put a dint in that. The economy doesn't belong to private ownership, it belongs to the people, and yes, it should be regulated otherwise the exploiters remain unchecked. I don't prefer a nanny state nor do I prefer unbridled capitalism




Talk about drama. Sheesh. Now if we could just get people interested in the fact that over half of the people murdered in the U.S. are black, and 90% murdered by another black person. I suppose you would say it's a shame they're not being murdered by white people. Then you could become upset about it.

The way you talk you are happy for a little black on black violence then you can justify your attitudes. It is obvious you are not upset about it, but don't worry your blacks are solving your problem for you

I don't prefer a nanny state nor do I prefer unbridled capitalismThen we agree.


The economy doesn't belong to private ownership, it belongs to the people,Not sure what you mean by that. I was referring to who owns the means of production.

What a convenient excuse.

Talk about drama. Sheesh. Now if we could just get people interested in the fact that over half of the people murdered in the U.S. are black, and 90% murdered by another black person. I suppose you would say it's a shame they're not being murdered by white people. Then you could become upset about it.

Still trying to dismiss me and move the narrative to your liking huh? Good luck with that! You should know better by now my friend. 8) I mean why would a brother from the inner city be upset by the white guy that claims to know the inner city?

I have said many times it's the poverty through the perpetuation of RACISM that fuels the deaths in America. Your attempts to blame the inner cities is an example of that perpetration and a pathetic excuse to shift blame, responsibility, and accountability. Such a sad attempt to oppress, suppress, and exploit for gain.


The way you talk you are happy for a little black on black violence then you can justify your attitudes. It is obvious you are not upset about it, but don't worry your blacks are solving your problem for you

Hopefully the POORER blacks and whites as the struggle for equality as written by the founders becomes more REAL!

I have said many times it's the poverty through the perpetuation of RACISM that fuels the deaths in America. At some point you need to come up with some evidence for that. I think I can EASILY demonstrate that the biggest problems BY FAR faced now by the black community are centered around the behavior of black people.


Your attempts to blame the inner cities is an example of that perpetration and a pathetic excuse to shift blame, responsibility, and accountability. Such a sad attempt to oppress, suppress, and exploit for gain.Unless, of course, it happens to be true. It's not a put-down of anyone. The problems afflicting the black community are much the same as what the rest of the country faces. I can guarantee you this. You can remove all the confederate statues, eliminate the ten (or whatever the number is) instances of murder by cop, kneel for the playing of the National Anthem at every NFL game, and the conditions in the black community will change none at all. But if you reverse the out of wedlock birth rate, improve the school situation, reduce criminal activity, and promote hard work and perseverance, the situation will change dramatically. In ten or fifteen years we would start to talk about "black privilege". But that will all require self discipline, honesty, and accountability. It is certainly much easier to point the finger elsewhere, but it is much less productive. And again, to be clear, it is the same problem the entire country faces. It's more widespread in black communities, but still very much in existence.

At some point you need to come up with some evidence for that. eliminate the ten (or whatever the number is) instances of murder by cop,

You're the one who needs to come up with evidence. Your comments here are riddled with racism and untrue.

Your casual dismissal of blacks murdered by cops as ten is off by a mere 880%! And that's only through June 4.

At some point you need to come up with some evidence for that. I think I can EASILY demonstrate that the biggest problems BY FAR faced now by the black community are centered around the behavior of black people.

No I don't as video technology has and is still capturing the previously under reported antics of police brutality for all to see. We can argue about the behavior of some black people, who perpetrate a criminal intent, as long as we also discuss the vast majority segregated in the poor part of town who have no resources to uplift their neighbor hoods and schools nor begin to build wealth that happens in other parts of our society. Poverty perpetrated by racism and all you have to do is follow the money like I did, have done, and you obviously have NOT.


Unless, of course, it happens to be true. It's not a put-down of anyone. The problems afflicting the black community are much the same as what the rest of the country faces. I can guarantee you this. You can remove all the confederate statues, eliminate the ten (or whatever the number is) instances of murder by cop, kneel for the playing of the National Anthem at every NFL game, and the conditions in the black community will change none at all. But if you reverse the out of wedlock birth rate, improve the school situation, reduce criminal activity, and promote hard work and perseverance, the situation will change dramatically. In ten or fifteen years we would start to talk about "black privilege". But that will all require self discipline, honesty, and accountability. It is certainly much easier to point the finger elsewhere, but it is much less productive. And again, to be clear, it is the same problem the entire country faces. It's more widespread in black communities, but still very much in existence.

No it's not true to an extremely large extent, no more than freeing the slaves and leaving them on the plantation to fend for themselves with no ownership of the lands they worked or access to the capital to do so, save for the shopkeepers and supplier of goods who exploited them. Much like the predatory lenders that exploits them now. Of course all you focus on is a narrow view of the problems of the inner cities because you haven't listened closely enough to those folks who try to tell you the REAL DEAL so understandable you wave your bible and ignore all the crowded churches on Sundays and through the weak, like we need your preaching to improve our lives.

We survive today as a people through our faith as we always have. How else can you explain putting up with 400 years of white people BS? We've already overcome a lot, and that will continue to be the case.

Your casual dismissal of blacks murdered by cops as ten is off by a mere 880%! And that's only through June 4.Nonsense. You're counting all blacks killed by the police. As any thinking person knows, when you are armed and dangerous, then your chances of being killed are pretty good, white, black, or otherwise. In 2016, 16 unarmed black men were killed by the police. As the Michael Brown case showed, just being unarmed does not make the case amount to a police murder, but use 16 if you want to. In the meantime, thousands and thousands of black Americans are murdered EVERY YEAR by other black Americans. For that matter, use your phony figure of 88. 150 black people are murdered EVERY WEEK. You don't care. I do.


as long as we also discuss the vast majority segregated in the poor part of town who have no resources to uplift their neighbor hoods and schools nor begin to build wealth that happens in other parts of our society.Between the two of us, I'm the only one showing any concern for them. We wouldn't even be talking about them if I didn't bring it up. There is no political capital to be gained through it, so lib dems don't care. Well, someone ought to care. If I could do anything at all to help a young black child, or for that matter any child, grow up with significant advantages, it would be to have even a somewhat decent father in the house who is married to the child's mother. The statistics on that are just overwhelming.

I do agree that black people have overcome great problems. Much of their ability to persevere was due to healthy families. Now, that is no longer the case.

I haven't waved my Bible.

I am proposing common sense ideas. You are proposing...nothing.

https://gillespieshields.com/40-facts-two-parent-families/

I don't prefer a nanny state nor do I prefer unbridled capitalism lol easy to build strawmen to knock down . Tell me when there was unbridled capitalism since perhaps the mid 19th century .

Would it be a fair statement to say that Australia is a nanny state?

The whole nanny state argument is a strawman one, since it's about a strong social safety net for citizens who fall through the cracks of society. It's roots are in judeo-christian teachings of helping the least among us. The laws and regulations governing that safety net are a state function and applied by the states, assisted by the federal government in cases of the poorer states.


Would it be a fair statement to say that Australia is a nanny state?

NO! Australia and nearly every other developed nation in the world regard their social safety net as a priority for it's citizens. Only in America is it vilified by the conservatives as a disincentive for work. Work is a requirement if it's available, and has a 5 year limit.

It's roots are in judeo-christian teachings of helping the least among us. No, it's not. That teaching calls for a voluntary giving of one's resources to help another person. The idea of the government using one person's money to basically buy the vote of another person is totally foreign.

If work is available? When unemployment was below 4%, then work was available to anyone who wanted it. For that matter, a person could have gotten two jobs. Of course it's a disincentive for work.

Nonsense. You're counting all blacks killed by the police.

I am counting EXACTLY what you claimed.


As any thinking person knows

Which sure as hell doesn't include you.

As usual, when confronted with your error, you simply change what you originally posted.


I am proposing common sense ideas.

This would be funny if it weren't coming from so pathetic a source.

No, it's not. That teaching calls for a voluntary giving of one's resources to help another person.

Hardly voluntary when commanded by God through his prophets.


The idea of the government using one person's money to basically buy the vote of another person is totally foreign.

What an incredibly cynical attitude! Do you or will you refuse Social Security? No, I didn't think so. How about the GI Bill? Child labor laws? Medicare? Medicaid? What does your Bible say about paying taxes? And on and on ........

I am counting EXACTLY what you claimed.Well, easy enough to find out. And as usual, you are wrong.

"So, here’s the 2018 breakdown of the 995 people shot and killed by the police.
403 were white, 210 were black, 148 were Hispanic, 38 were classified as other, and 199 were classified as unknown.
Out of that 995, 47 were unarmed — 23 were white, 17 were black, 5 were Hispanic, and 2 were unknown."

I believe the figure for 2019 was 9, but still looking for verification on that.

https://www.newsmax.com/bernardkerik/police-shootings-crime-statistics/2019/01/22/id/899297/


Hardly voluntary when commanded by God through his prophets.Where did the prophets command the government to collect and distribute money for the poor? Hint: It actually did occur in the OT, but was only for Israel. I just wonder if you know where to find it.


As usual, when confronted with your error, you simply change what you originally posted.Where?

More of this would help.


https://static.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/random-acts-of-kindness-faith-in-humanity-restored-this-is-america-racism-45-5b23b03b4ad9d__700.jpg

Or this. At A Waffle House In La Marque, Texas, This Elderly Man Told The Waitress That His Hands Weren’t Working Too Good. He Was Also On Oxygen And Struggling To Breathe. Without Hesitation, She Took His Plate And Began Cutting His Ham.

https://static.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/random-acts-of-kindness-faith-in-humanity-restored-this-is-america-racism-25-5b225248e579c__700.jpg

No, it's not. That teaching calls for a voluntary giving of one's resources to help another person. The idea of the government using one person's money to basically buy the vote of another person is totally foreign.

Whose vote is your state buying? Why can't governments have rules and regs based on religious doctrine? Such good works and worthy endeavors are not confined to churches only, just as marriage (for economic purposes, or otherwise) is not the exclusive domain of religion. Many get married at the local courthouses.


If work is available? When unemployment was below 4%, then work was available to anyone who wanted it. For that matter, a person could have gotten two jobs. Of course it's a disincentive for work.

It wasn't below 4% everywhere, and in many regions it was much higher, and the black community was almost twice as high as white unemployment. Even red state governors have sought waivers for it's citizens to use for jobs training instead of work to meet the requirement.

This works too!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnXIqmDqzWE

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZiH1jEXgAEYI4g?format=jpg&name=medium

https://images03.military.com/sites/default/files/styles/full/public/2020-06/tennessee_national_guard_shields_3200.jpeg.jpg?ito k=Axihpnlr

https://www.dailydot.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/portland-police-kneel-with-protesters-1024x512.jpg.webp

https://journalstar.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/watch-now-state-trooper-kneels-with-protesters-marching-for-george-floyd-in-lincoln/article_c9a0923d-8b10-543e-80ee-34cfab072ef1.html

Why can't governments have rules and regs based on religious doctrine?A liberal dem is asking that question? Can't pray in schools, or post the Ten Commandments. We have gay marriage and abortion, but we can tax because of religious doctrine? Well, I guess so.

I was raised differently, I guess. I never expected anyone else to support me. It never crossed my mind, and I still feel that any man worth his salt will work and take care of his family. Move if you have to. Work two jobs if you have to, but don't expect someone else to pay your bills. And if you work hard and smart, you can actually end up in a good place. Welfare will never do that for you. I don't care what your skin color is. Get off your butt and get busy living.

A liberal dem is asking that question? Can't pray in schools, or post the Ten Commandments. We have gay marriage and abortion, but we can tax because of religious doctrine? Well, I guess so.

You can't make others pray with you nor have ANY religious postings, but nobody stops anybody from praying as individuals or groups as long as it doesn't disrupt school functions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_prayer_in_the_United_States#:~:text=%20%20% 201%20Have,government%20and%20religion.%20More

You aren't taxed because of religious doctrine, you are taxed to support the functions of government.

YUP! Leave it to a liberal dem to expose your lies and half truths.


I was raised differently, I guess. I never expected anyone else to support me. It never crossed my mind, and I still feel that any man worth his salt will work and take care of his family. Move if you have to. Work two jobs if you have to, but don't expect someone else to pay your bills. And if you work hard and smart, you can actually end up in a good place. Welfare will never do that for you. I don't care what your skin color is. Get off your butt and get busy living.

Welfare is the helping hand to get you on your feet when life knocks you down. Why do conservatives keep trying to make it seem like it's a sin?

Welfare is the helping hand to get you on your feet when life knocks you down. Why do conservatives keep trying to make it seem like it's a sin?

it's not sinful to help out Tal, but when taxes are used for this purpose, conservatives see it as robbery, welfare should be out of surplus not deficit so that is why for centuries it has been the provenance of the Churches who do not tax. In your country gifts to churches and charity are seen as a reduction of personal income and so are tax deductible, but you can't have it both ways unless it is government who are taking over charity, in which case they need to do a far better job

YUP! Leave it to a liberal dem to expose your lies and half truths.

Judas needs to be exposed. It's done very well on this website. Whenever it happens, he comes back foaming at the mouth.


Welfare is the helping hand to get you on your feet when life knocks you down. Why do conservatives keep trying to make it seem like it's a sin?

A simple concept, rooted in Christianity, that conservatives seem to miss.

nobody stops anybody from praying as individuals or groups as long as it doesn't disrupt school functions.There are many schools where prayer groups are not allowed unless, of course, they are for Muslims.


You aren't taxed because of religious doctrine, you are taxed to support the functions of government. YUP! Leave it to a liberal dem to expose your lies and half truths.It was your idea. I was just responding to it. Remember???


Welfare is the helping hand to get you on your feet when life knocks you down.Wishful thinking.

welfare should be out of surplus not deficit

Respectfully disagree, 'clete. Jesus tells a fitting parable on this subject - the widow's mite. She gave from her substance, not her surplus.

A poor widow also came and put in two small coins worth a few cents. Calling his disciples to himself, he said to them, 'Amen, I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all the other contributors to the treasury. For they have all contributed from their surplus wealth, but she, from her poverty, has contributed all she had, her whole livelihood.

A simple concept, rooted in Christianity, that conservatives seem to miss.
Isn't it the Republicans who insist this is a Christian nation, founded by Christian men, yet don't want any government (tax) money to help those less fortunate among us?

It was not a tax. She gave voluntarily, which is why she was commended.

It was not a tax. She gave voluntarily, which is why she was commended.

Amazing how you turn the parable to your own nefarious philosophy.

The point, which you so badly missed, is giving from her substance not her surplus. Your tendency to twist the words of Jesus is noted once more.

And again, "It was not a tax. She gave voluntarily, which is why she was commended." You were using the story to defend taxation which was 100% wrong.

And again, "It was not a tax. She gave voluntarily, which is why she was commended." You were using the story to defend taxation which was 100% wrong.

No, I was using the parable the way Jesus intended it. It couldn't be more clear.

It couldn't be more clear.To you...only. Takes vision.

To you...only. Takes vision.

And to all those thousands down the ages that you love to cite and who understand the parable precisely as I've shown. Give it up Judas, you're drowning.

The thousands I love to cite, and you know they understand the parable as you do? You've read those "thousands" of commentaries and you know they agree with you? What is your problem? Do you really think anyone believes such nonsense?

To you...only. Takes vision.
Why do you pay taxes? The roads and bridges you help pay for are used by women who've had abortions and by doctors who've performed them. Wonder what "unacceptable people" (according to you) use that public library you support? Or attend your state universities? Or enjoy the public parks in your state? I just can't believe you contribute to their happiness and wellbeing!

"unacceptable people" (according to you) When have I referred to "unacceptable people"?

We were talking about welfare. You bring up roads, bridges, schools, etc. Hmm.

When have I referred to "unacceptable people"?

We were talking about welfare. You bring up roads, bridges, schools, etc. Hmm.
All are supported by tax dollars. Or don't you pay taxes? And people you disapprove of ("unacceptable people") use all those tax-supported entities -- including welfare.

There are many schools where prayer groups are not allowed unless, of course, they are for Muslims.

I couldn't find a public school where Muslims can practice their faith and Christians could not. Google has failed me please help.


It was your idea. I was just responding to it. Remember???

And rather poorly so I felt the need to correct with the facts.


Wishful thinking.

Hopeful thinking. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/daily-videos/why-is-it-so-hard-to-get-off-welfare/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare

US History


Until early in the year of 1965, the news media was conveying only whites as living in poverty however that perception had changed to blacks.[44] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare#cite_note-:0-44) Some of the influences in this shift could have been the civil rights movement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_rights_movement) and urban riots from the mid 60s. Welfare had then shifted from being a White issue to a Black issue and during this time frame the war on poverty had already begun.[44] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare#cite_note-:0-44) Subsequently, news media portrayed stereotypes of Blacks as lazy, undeserving and welfare queens (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_queen). These shifts in media don't necessarily establish the population living in poverty decreasing.[44] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare#cite_note-:0-44)

There are many schools where prayer groups are not allowed unless, of course, they are for Muslims.
Please name one. I'll call the principal and verify.

Respectfully disagree, 'clete. Jesus tells a fitting parable on this subject - the widow's mite. She gave from her substance, not her surplus.

A poor widow also came and put in two small coins worth a few cents. Calling his disciples to himself, he said to them, 'Amen, I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all the other contributors to the treasury. For they have all contributed from their surplus wealth, but she, from her poverty, has contributed all she had, her whole livelihood.



She may not have given much it does nothing to illustrate the point I was making, she gave to God and out of his abundance (surplus) she would have received. Jesus said the poor are always with us, and undoubtedly his expectation is that God would meet their needs when they rely on him. Reliance on government is not reliance on God, but the socialist agenda is to have everyone rely on government and thus it is a Godless agenda. God doesn't ask Ceasar to tax the populace so as to meet their needs, no he says give to God because in the Jewish system the tythe was to meet charitable needs

And people you disapprove of ("unacceptable people") use all those tax-supported entities -- including welfare.I've never referred to "unacceptable people". Your use of quotation marks is AGAIN dishonest. The whole reference is dishonest. Haven't you learned yet?

Here are schools that have installed prayer rooms for Muslim students. Now you can list the schools that have installed prayer rooms for Christian students. Good luck.

https://www.newsmax.com/FastFeatures/Muslim-Prayer-in-Schools-Religion-Students/2015/03/25/id/634403/

https://www.rt.com/usa/muslim-prayer-us-schools-060/

https://rense.com/general17/NYCoksprayer.htm

I've never referred to that. Your use of quotation marks is AGAIN dishonest. Haven't you learned yet?
You've forgotten the use of quote marks for paraphrasing. Alzheimer's setting in?

Here are schools that have installed prayer rooms for Muslim students. Now you can list the schools that have installed prayer rooms for Christian students. Good luck.
That wasn't the assignment.

Yep. The infamous "Chicago Paraphrase".

You ever remember why you "disagree" with abortion?

I've never referred to "unacceptable people". Your use of quotation marks is AGAIN dishonest. The whole reference is dishonest. Haven't you learned yet?

Here are schools that have installed prayer rooms for Muslim students. Now you can list the schools that have installed prayer rooms for Christian students. Good luck.

https://www.newsmax.com/FastFeatures/Muslim-Prayer-in-Schools-Religion-Students/2015/03/25/id/634403/

https://www.rt.com/usa/muslim-prayer-us-schools-060/

https://rense.com/general17/NYCoksprayer.htm

I saw nowhere that rooms were installed for Muslims in your hand full of examples, nor prohibited Christians of the same opportunities as the Muslims had in those schools. Establishing space for Muslims and early dismissals is pretty reasonable accommodations.

From your link


So to satisfy all sides, the school rescheduled its lunch period in order to meet the requirements for Muslim prayer and to allow students of any faith to prayer if they choose, according to The Christian Science Monitor. (http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0712/p01s03-ussc.html)

My question was "I couldn't find a public school where Muslims can practice their faith and Christians could not.". It appears while Muslims were accommodated, Christians were not prohibited, so correct me if I'm wrong, but public schools seem to allow school prayers of both religions, which seems fair to me, and contradicts the conservative lament of not allowing prayers in school.

Now posting religious stuff may be a different matter, and there are many against such things in school no matter the religion.

One more pic. This woman visited a stranger in a nursing home, a 112 year old woman who had not had a visitor in three years. It is kindness at work. I feel safe in saying it is what Jesus would have done. https://static.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/5b2110c290630_bRU9B__700.jpg

She may not have given much it does nothing to illustrate the point I was making, she gave to God and out of his abundance (surplus) she would have received. Jesus said the poor are always with us, and undoubtedly his expectation is that God would meet their needs when they rely on him

I have no argument with your interpretation.


Reliance on government is not reliance on God

If anyone here made that claim, I missed it. I agree God and government are not the same.


the socialist agenda is to have everyone rely on government and thus it is a Godless agenda.

I don't know what you mean by "socialist agenda". Are you referring to the US where we have a capitalist/socialist system? I don't see it as Godless. Could you explain why you think so?


God doesn't ask Ceasar to tax the populace so as to meet their needs

The only reference to Caesar was Jesus remark to "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's". That seems to be an approval of giving to Caesar. If you interpret it differently, I'll be glad to read what you think.


he says give to God because in the Jewish system the tythe was to meet charitable needs

Just my opinion, but I see this as a clear mandate to help the less fortunate. Again, be happy to read your take if you see it otherwise.

This is how the dufus deals with police brutality.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-claims-75-year-old-man-shoved-by-buffalo-police-could-be-part-of-set-up/ar-BB15fgIp?ocid=msedgdhp

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BB156f4p.img?h=688&w=1123&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=686&y=417

Tal, Trump doesn't deal with police brutality, he appears to be in favour of it

https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/leaders/us-president-donald-trump-says-75yearold-protester-pushed-to-the-ground-by-police-was-a-setup/news-story/04b6ef8e99a2023a19d58b77a4b04c35

He does seem to favor brutalizing everybody press, protesters, citizens. We seem to have the same link, which makes his conspiracy theory outrageous.

Hard to believe, but Trump is tweeting that the 75-year-old man in the picture above is a member of antifa and that the incident was a "set-up"!

“75 year old Martin Gugino was pushed away after appearing to scan police communications in order to black out the equipment. @OANN I watched, he fell harder than was pushed. Was aiming scanner. Could be a set up?”

The victim has just been released from an ICU unit after several days. Trump has been known to promote baseless conspiracy theories. The most famous being the "birther conspiracy".

From [JL's] link: My question was "I couldn't find a public school where Muslims can practice their faith and Christians could not.". It appears while Muslims were accommodated, Christians were not prohibited, so correct me if I'm wrong, but public schools seem to allow school prayers of both religions, which seems fair to me, and contradicts the conservative lament of not allowing prayers in school.

Now posting religious stuff may be a different matter, and there are many against such things in school no matter the religion.
Exactly correct, tal! A public grade or high school will arrange to give a space for private prayer(s) for a religious group or even one or two individuals. Public libraries have done this too. In fact, one of the public libraries I worked at had hired a young Muslim woman who had been born in Afghanistan. She needed a private space for prayers at Zuhr (just after noontime) and at 'Asr (late afternoon), so the director set up specific times with her to use our staff lounge for prayers. The rest of the staff happily agreed to this and printed up a sign to post on the door to remind us that the room was in use and we weren't to enter.

That led the staff into animated lunchtime discussions about Muslim and Christian beliefs (and later, Hindu beliefs after Shachi was hired). But no one was allowed to proselytize.

I showed where this has been done for Muslims, even allowing them to exit classes and go to a purpose built prayer room. Now if you can show me any place where anything like that is being done for Christians, then you have a point. Otherwise, you don't.

Can't proselytize? Why not? That, thankfully, is not prohibited when done by students to students, or staff to staff. Can't imagine why anyone would have a problem with that.

I've never referred to "unacceptable people". Your use of quotation marks is AGAIN dishonest. The whole reference is dishonest. Haven't you learned yet?
Then, instead of calling those quote marks paraphrasing, let's call them tongue-in-cheek.

I showed where this has been done for Muslims, even allowing them to exit classes and go to a purpose built prayer room. Now if you can show me any place where anything like that is being done for Christians, then you have a point. Otherwise, you don't.

Can't proselytize? Why not? That, thankfully, is not prohibited when done by students to students, or staff to staff. Can't imagine why anyone would have a problem with that.

A bit inaccurate with "purpose built", and I doubt they spent money for it, just gave them a space like has been done for Christians for decades going back to my school days. Why you think it unfair is beyond me except maybe you feel they should be given nothing as non Christians and you think YOUR religion hasn't gotten enough.

From my view your homework is a bust and it's you that has NOTHING!

I showed where this has been done for Muslims, even allowing them to exit classes and go to a purpose built prayer room. Now if you can show me any place where anything like that is being done for Christians, then you have a point. Otherwise, you don't.
From https://www.adl.org/education/resources/tools-and-strategies/religion-in-public-schools/prayer
May students pray [in public schools]?

Students have the right to engage in voluntary individual prayer that is not coercive and does not substantially disrupt the school's educational mission and activities. For example, all students have the right to say a blessing before eating a meal. However, school officials must not promote or encourage a student's personal prayer. Students may engage with other students in religious activity during non-curricular periods as long as the activity is not coercive or disruptive. In addition, while students may speak about religious topics with their peers, school officials should intercede if such discussions become religious harassment. It is essential that private religious activity not materially disrupt the school's educational mission and activities. Personal religious activity may not interfere with the rights or well-being of other students, and the threat of student harassment and pressure must be carefully monitored. It is also critical to ensure that the religious activity is actually student-initiated, and that no school employee supervises or participates in the activity. Any school promotion or endorsement of a student's private religious activity is unconstitutional.


Can't proselytize? Why not? That, thankfully, is not prohibited when done by students to students, or staff to staff. Can't imagine why anyone would have a problem with that.
See above about proselytizing.

I read your passage. How does that differ from what has already been said?

Still don't know why staff members cannot proselytize.

Still don't know why you "disagree" with abortion.

Thank goodness you have finally realized that you cannot represent a paraphrase as a quote.

Still don't know where you have found any statement by me that would even come close to suggesting that I don't approve of "unacceptable people". Sure looks like a dishonest attempt by you to smear. Shame.

Tal, that's a fair point about the rooms being purpose built. It does seem not to be the case. Still, find where Christians are given space during the school day and you might have a point. Did you read this? "Muslims were allowed "prayer accommodations" in 2013 in the public schools of Dearborn, Michigan. The Michigan chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations had negotiated an arrangement with school officials in Dearborn, a suburb of Detroit.

The Dearborn school board implemented a policy that allowed a place for student prayers in all public schools and also permission to leave early on Friday for scheduled prayers."

Kind of funny that this has been done for Moslem students but not Christians.

Specifically what has been done for Muslims and not for Christians? Just trying to understand your beef here and what you think you're missing. Even you're link to a handful of school district says nothing about not accommodating Christians school prayers, as well as all you seek it. he Muslim faith specifically require prayers 5 times a day so I can see certain things as reasonable.

Some people want no religious accommodations for ANY religion so I fail to see what Christians are missing out on or discriminated against.

Moslems get to get out of class to pray. Check and see if that's done for Christians. But it's not really a beef. Just more of an observation. Student prayer groups should be encouraged.

Not by teachers but I would imagine such groups are accommodated by the schools if they ask. Back in my day (our day) some groups were given excused absences or early go homes, for religious views. It was no big deal.

Moslems get to get out of class to pray. Check and see if that's done for Christians. But it's not really a beef. Just more of an observation. Student prayer groups should be encouraged.
Christians could too. Or they can bow their heads in silent prayer. Public schools do not encourage prayer groups to be held for any religious group; it would be allowed only as a request from an individual or that group (and it would be done in a private area).

Back in the early '50s, my elementary public school in western NC allowed the Southern Baptists to spend time with students, teaching us Bible stories and having Bible verse memorizing contests (first prize was a Bible). My father refused to allow me to participate. And I wasn't alone in sitting out those sessions.

They televised George Floyds' funeral today. Hope it brings some comfort to the family friends and those that cared, and some needed changes to prevent these kinds of senseless tragedies.

Christians could too.I don't think so, not today. Find a situation where a prayer room has been set aside for Christian kids and I'll accept your point.

I hope the funerals for the other 150 black Americans buried this week will bring about some changes as well. Maybe someone will found a group that says their lives matter.

I don't think so, not today. Find a situation where a prayer room has been set aside for Christian kids and I'll accept your point.
Of course, they would be! And have been. Will report specifics soon. Btw, "prayer rooms, as is any religious or secular meeting," are scheduled, by appointment, not limited to Muslim use.

Will report specifics soon.OK. Just remember that the challenge is to find a school that let's Christians kids out of class early to go a special room set aside for them to pray in.

OK. Just remember that the challenge is to find a school that let's Christians kids out of class early to go a special room set aside for them to pray in.
Christian kids know they don't have to leave class to go into a special room to pray! Fixed prayer times are not part of Christianity as they are in Islam.

I don't think so, not today. Find a situation where a prayer room has been set aside for Christian kids and I'll accept your point.

It only matters to you so YOU find it. Must be the teacher in you that loves to hand out homework assignments.


I hope the funerals for the other 150 black Americans buried this week will bring about some changes as well. Maybe someone will found a group that says their lives matter.

There already is such a group. It's called family and friends. Why do you continue to just single out black Americans?

Christian kids know they don't have to leave class to go into a special room to pray! Fixed prayer times are not part of Christianity as they are in Islam.Good thing since they are not allowed to do so.


It only matters to you so YOU find it. Must be the teacher in you that loves to hand out homework assignments.
Why would I look for what does not exist?


There already is such a group. It's called family and friends. Why do you continue to just single out black Americans?Why do you?

Good thing since they are not allowed to do so.
Of course they would be!

I called several area school district offices this afternoon, but all were closed -- summer break? COVID-19? Will try again in the morning.

Do that. Ask if Christian kids can leave class early to go to a designated prayer room.

Just got to find something to illuminate a difference, and make a bigger deal out of it than it warrants, so you come off like being cheated, slighted, or some kind of victim! None of those things is even close nor life changing and you have even acknowledge that already, yet you continue to send us down these rabbit holes to placate this petulance.

Do you also count the pepperoni on pizza to make sure you get your fair share? This whole thread is about a bigger picture that somehow you can never see, nor want to, as you must always express the narrow view that only you have the right answer in every discussion. Get real because so far you have not!

Do that. Ask if Christian kids can leave class early to go to a designated prayer room.
I'm guessing the "designated prayer room" is an empty classroom (so the location of it changes), a large cloakroom or closet, or a storeroom. The Muslim students would need the "designated prayer room" probably just once during the school day, in the early afternoon, for Zuhr (or Dhuhr).

Just got to find something to illuminate a difference, and make a bigger deal out of it than it warrants, so you come off like being cheated, slighted, or some kind of victim!Kind of like BLM?


This whole thread is about a bigger picture that somehow you can never see, nor want to, as you must always express the narrow view that only you have the right answer in every discussion. Get real because so far you have not!OK. What is the big picture in your view? I've already told you that the prayer room deal is not a big issue to me. The decision to have riots because a black man is murdered by a policeman and just ignore the hundreds of others killed by other black individuals does bother me a great deal. It's a big picture to me.

I've already told you that the prayer room deal is not a big issue to me.
I would never have guessed...

Kind of like BLM?

The young peoples civil rights movement of THIS generation?


OK. What is the big picture in your view? I've already told you that the prayer room deal is not a big issue to me. The decision to have riots because a black man is murdered by a policeman and just ignore the hundreds of others killed by other black individuals does bother me a great deal. It's a big picture to me.

Only because you dismiss the police brutality that delivers no justice to it's victims and is swept under the rug while the brothers populate the prisons on small ticky tacky charges, often because they can't make bail. I can see good cops getting a raw deal being thrown in with the bad corrupt ones, but hell man, we can't even get the bad ones out.

Even now you equate peaceful protests to injustice corruption, with RIOTS? No sir! You won't dismiss the daytimers, because the freaks come out at night! That's the big picture!

Your mind is made up, I guess mine is too! Let's meet in the middle and get the bad cops and do a better job of getting the criminals.

just got to find something to illuminate a difference, and make a bigger deal out of it than it warrants, so you come off like being cheated, slighted, or some kind of victim! None of those things is even close nor life changing and you have even acknowledge that already, yet you continue to send us down these rabbit holes to placate this petulance.

Do you also count the pepperoni on pizza to make sure you get your fair share? This whole thread is about a bigger picture that somehow you can never see, nor want to, as you must always express the narrow view that only you have the right answer in every discussion. Get real because so far you have not!

Bingo!!

are we playing bingo, if so get your ducks in a row, 22

Not done yet Athos

https://vittana.org/42-shocking-police-brutality-statistics

http://copcrisis.com/

https://www.mic.com/articles/129981/10-police-brutality-statistics-that-are-absolutely-shocking

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

Only because you dismiss the police brutality that delivers no justice to it's victims and is swept under the rugI haven't dismissed anything.


while the brothers populate the prisons on small ticky tacky charges,That's not true.


I can see good cops getting a raw deal being thrown in with the bad corrupt ones, but hell man, we can't even get the bad ones out.We do need to get the bad ones out. Agreed.


Even now you equate peaceful protests to injustice corruption, with RIOTS?I haven't done that. Haven't even come close.


That's the big picture!What is????

he says give to God because in the Jewish system the tythe was to meet charitable needsThat was not the purpose of the tithe in Israel. The tithe went to the Levites to support them and allow them to be fully committed to the work of OT ministry. It was their inheritance and their due.

There was a tithe every third year that was for the support of the poor, so it amounted to about 3% a year, but that was not the primary tithe nor the tithe that is generally being referred to when the term is used.

I haven't dismissed anything.

You wrote, "The decision to have riots because a black man is murdered by a policeman and just ignore the hundreds of others killed by other black individuals does bother me a great deal. It's a big picture to me.". The decision was to peacefully protest after a brutal murder which was just the latest event in a series that so rattled the public conscious actions had to be taken lest we forget while Floyd 's death was in real time, others were delayed from the public as most are and kept quiet. The rioting was from criminals taking advantage of the protests. If all you see are rioters, you miss the whole point of WHY people made the decision to take to the streets in the first place. Your whole narrative about the deaths from criminals daily undermines the whole issue of police brutality which your own numbers point is more than rare isolated incidence and forgives bad cops by dismissing it as a huge problem in communities both black and white. The diversity and widespread protesting through out the WORLD bears witness to the size, scope, and heinousness of police cruelty, abuses, and atrocities that's long been complained about but never addressed.

True there are many other important issues before us but how dare you say to others what they SHOULD be upset about or how to express that upset. That is a callous disregard to the concerns of the many who have been outraged and adversely affected by such behavior by those charged with serving and protecting while they do neither. If they were at least doing an effective job of that then would those black lives lost that YOU cite even be so high? Of course you continue to focus on the narrow issue that has your attention, and dismiss what has ours and both go back to how the cops get away with MURDER, terror, and brutality in poor neighborhoods while not serving and protecting.


That's not true.

Most blacks in prison were charged with non violent offenses, and receive higher sentences that whites. A very old and pervasive story that just fuels the fires burning amongst
minorities and poor people.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/black-white-sentencing-criminal-justice-report_n_5a0f8295e4b0e97dffed66a0

https://www.ussc.gov/research/research-reports/demographic-differences-sentencing

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2019/12/03/the-growing-racial-disparity-in-prison-time

Of course there is a lot more data and fact, but that's the meat of a larger picture of a system that serves as a knee on the neck of minorities. Racism in the criminal justice system? You bet, but you aren't listening to that either so dismissing the problem and becoming part of it.


I haven't done that. Haven't even come close.

Addressed above!


What is????

Also see above, and maybe own what you have posted.

Talk about self-serving photo ops.

https://thejasminebrand.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Dems-kneel-wearing-kente-cloth-thejasminebrand.png


"The decision to have riots because a black man is murdered by a policeman and just ignore the hundreds of others killed by other black individuals does bother me a great deal. It's a big picture to me.". The decision was to peacefully protest after a brutal murder which was just the latest event in a series that so rattled the public conscious actions had to be taken lest we forget while Floyd 's death was in real time, others were delayed from the public as most are and kept quiet. The rioting was from criminals taking advantage of the protests. If all you see are rioters, you miss the whole point of WHY people made the decision to take to the streets in the first place. Your whole narrative about the deaths from criminals daily undermines the whole issue of police brutality which your own numbers point is more than rare isolated incidence and forgives bad cops by dismissing it as a huge problem in communities both black and white. The diversity and widespread protesting through out the WORLD bears witness to the size, scope, and heinousness of police cruelty, abuses, and atrocities that's long been complained about but never addressed.I wrote that where? Pretty sure I didn't.

how dare you say to others what they SHOULD be upset about or how to express that upset. Like you are doing right now?

You said black men were in prison on "small, ticky-tak charges", but then proceeded to post links about sentencing disparities??? What??? At any rate, I said that "ticky-tak" reference was not true because...it is not true. A bank robbery or a home burglary are non-violent offenses. I have no problem with sending people to jail for those crimes. Black men are not in jail for jaywalking or speeding. Your statement was plainly false.

But I really want to know about that statement you attributed to me. Where was that???

Never mind. I think I see it now. I thought you meant the entire paragraph, but I suppose this was my statement. "The decision to have riots because a black man is murdered by a policeman and just ignore the hundreds of others killed by other black individuals does bother me a great deal. It's a big picture to me." So what in that is dismissive of George Floyd? It does not equate peaceful protests with rioting. I COMPLETELY OWN IT because it is a fair and honest statement. Some protested peacefully while others rioted. Those were, in both cases, decisions that were made. Stop being so sensitive. It is the rioting and the complete silence about thousands of murdered black Americans from a group that professes to care about black lives that bothers me a great deal. I don't understand that. If the day ever comes, and we hope it doesn't, that your house or business is destroyed by rioters, then it will be interesting to see what you post here the next day. I bet you will be singing a different tune.

Take to the streets about police brutality if you want. In the cases where it occurs, it needs to stop and I agree with that completely, but you might want to put some effort into a much, much, much larger area of need. Everyone deserves protection and justice.

That was not the purpose of the tithe in Israel. The tithe went to the Levites to support them and allow them to be fully committed to the work of OT ministry. It was their inheritance and their due.

There was a tithe every third year that was for the support of the poor, so it amounted to about 3% a year, but that was not the primary tithe nor the tithe that is generally being referred to when the term is used.

The third year tithe was used to support foreigners, the local synagogue and charitable purposes (poor) why else did God say pay the tithe so there should be food in my house, the other tithes were used for visits to the temple which was an annual requirement, it was consumed by the people, and the levites were supported by the offerings. You really do need to work on your lack of knowledge, there is a lot of false teaching associated with OT tithes and there is no such thing as a NT tithe so the discussion is moot, like so many here

There has been no silence about black on black crime. You have just been incapable of hearing it. As a black guy I know full well I could be a victim of it rather easily, or my kids or grand kids, but what makes it worse is when you call a cop, I could end up as their victim as well. Heck I could end up a victim without calling them for a crime, just by going about my business. Or just out for a jog. Or sleeping peacefully in my bed with my wife.

You have to step back and see just being black can land you in jail, or a victim in America and not just from criminals. So with respect, those so called isolated incidence are VERY much related to the everyday black on black crimes you keep pointing out. Two trees in the bigger forest. Of course the guy who doesn't know racists can never relate to it's effects over the centuries to the people it targets. Nor address effectively the issues it raises in the bigger picture.

Indeed my friend if all you see are the victims of black on black crime which I prefer to just say CRIME, do you see the others who live in the environment of poverty and violence who aren't criminals? Poverty is the bigger picture and economic and health insecurities that come with it. If you can't call a cop, banker, doctor, mayor, or president then who ya gonna call?

The long running struggle continues my friend. Thanks for the bag of groceries.

You are very much more likely to be a victim of crime than to be a victim of police brutality. It's not even close.


Poverty is the bigger picture and economic and health insecurities that come with it. If you can't call a cop, banker, doctor, mayor, or president then who ya gonna call?The big question is, what causes the poverty? I've already outlined some very good solutions. You don't want to accept them since they involve an exercising of personal responsibility and can't be done by simply blaming someone else.