I have often criticized the right wing anti-abortion actions as bullying simply because women with means and resources and private insurance can visit an Oby/Gyn in privacy, and control their health decisions, where woman without resources, generally poor females, do not have the same options. Most mature women know any sexual activity can result in pregnancy, so married or not they handle their business...without anyone's advice or permission. Blood and urine tests can detect a pregnancy after 2 weeks of fertilization.

https://www.babymed.com/pregnancy-tests/how-early-can-pregnancy-be-detected-with-a-test

Attacking just poor women, is discrimination, but that seems to be all you can effect. I don't like bullies regardless of rhyme, reason, or religion, and certainly oppose the barbaric practice of shaming and shunning, against anyone who is hard pressed to defend themselves. While I am opposed to abortions, I am way more opposed to bullies, and deadbeats after the deed is done. You seem to be in both categories JL!!

That may be, but you don't know you're pregnant at the zygote stage. Way too early.
"A zygote is the union of the sperm cell and the egg cell. Also known as a fertilized ovum, the zygote begins as a single cell but divides rapidly in the days following fertilization. After this two-week period of cell division, the zygote eventually becomes an embryo. If this goes well, the embryo becomes a fetus."

I'm guessing you'll be pregnant in Purgatory. You'll pee a lot during the first two weeks.

"A zygote is the union of the sperm cell and the egg cell. Also known as a fertilized ovum, the zygote begins as a single cell but divides rapidly in the days following fertilization. After this two-week period of cell division, the zygote eventually becomes an embryo. If this goes well, the embryo becomes a fetus."Thank you for telling me what I already know. Now maybe you can tell us the significance of the information.


Most mature women know any sexual activity can result in pregnancy, so married or not they handle their business...without anyone's advice or permission. Blood and urine tests can detect a pregnancy after 2 weeks of fertilization.So? Women generally do not suspect pregnancy until they miss a period. That's 4 weeks.


Attacking just poor women, is discrimination, but that seems to be all you can effect. I don't like bullies regardless of rhyme, reason, or religion, and certainly oppose the barbaric practice of shaming and shunning, against anyone who is hard pressed to defend themselves. While I am opposed to abortions, I am way more opposed to bullies, and deadbeats after the deed is done. You seem to be in both categories JL!!I'm always amazed how liberal dems can justify anything. Grown adults go into a room and kill a defenseless, innocent child, but somehow in your world it is someone else who is the bully. Well how about killing an innocent human being??? Does that pass for bullying in your world?

How about killing the unborn children of poor women? Does that qualify as discrimination in your brave new world?

Thank you for telling me what I already know. Now maybe you can tell us the significance of the information.

So? Women generally do not suspect pregnancy until they miss a period. That's 4 weeks.
You're very incorrect. The first, very early indication of pregnancy is needing to pee.

You mean you never had to pee before getting pregnant??? I have to be honest with you and say that I don't really believe that. 8D

But while we're talking pregnancies, our daughter and son in law just let us know that she is going to have a girl. We are thrilled.

You mean you never had to pee before getting pregnant??? I have to be honest with you and say that I don't really believe that.
I should have added FREQUENTLY!!!!

So? Women generally do not suspect pregnancy until they miss a period. That's 4 weeks.

Women of means with insurance can visit their oby/gyn, and confirm a pregnancy within two weeks of having sex as my link says. It's also covered under Obama Care!

Women of means with insurance can visit their oby/gyn, and confirm a pregnancy within two weeks of having sex as my link says. It's also covered under Obama Care!

Don't know why they don't. Maybe they don't KNOW!


I'm always amazed how liberal dems can justify anything. Grown adults go into a room and kill a defenseless, innocent child, but somehow in your world it is someone else who is the bully. Well how about killing an innocent human being??? Does that pass for bullying in your world?

How about killing the unborn children of poor women? Does that qualify as discrimination in your brave new world?

Is cleaning a womb after two weeks of fertilization murder? NO! Such exams are also used for fibrous growths and ectopic treatment, also both important to women's health. Is it to you? I can respect religious teaching, but individual rights trump religion in my book! That's what I mean about education and OPTIONS that women can and should have availed to them...within the LAW!

Even married woman have a right to plan their families don't they, and practice good health for themselves. I really don't think its any of your business or mine either.

Is cleaning a wombCleaning a womb. Dear God. If it makes you feel better to put it that way, then that's up to you. You intentionally keep yourself ignorant of the truth lest your thoughts keep you up at night.


practice good health for themselvesYeah. And if it means killing their unborn child, then Tal is fine with that. You couldn't care less.


individual rightsWhat are these individual rights based on?

What are these individual rights based on?
Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113 (1973), was a landmark decision of the U.S. Supreme Court in which the Court ruled that the Constitution of the United States protects a pregnant woman's liberty to choose to have an abortion without excessive government restriction. (Wikipedia)

That's not what we were talking about. But suppose Roe V Wade gets overturned some day. Does that mean that women will no longer have that "right"?

I ask because the signers of the Declaration would not agree with your approach or Tal's. They said we have certain inalienable rights because they were granted by, essentially, God. That is why that are inalienable, or you could say inseparable. Man did not grant them, so man cannot take the right to them away.

That's not what we were talking about.
It's exactly what was being talked about! Keep up!!!

I ask because the signers of the Declaration would not agree with your approach or Tal's. They said we have certain inalienable rights because they were granted by, essentially, God. That is why that are inalienable, or you could say inseparable. Man did not grant them, so man cannot take the right to them away.
And the signers' women never had occasion to have an abortion? And God gave mankind free will.

That's not what we were talking about. But suppose Roe V Wade gets overturned some day. Does that mean that women will no longer have that "right"?

I seriously doubt women with resources will stop seeing their oby/gyn, and as poor females realize that's the way to go neither will they be bullied.


I ask because the signers of the Declaration would not agree with your approach or Tal's. They said we have certain inalienable rights because they were granted by, essentially, God. That is why that are inalienable, or you could say inseparable. Man did not grant them, so man cannot take the right to them away.

The constitution GUARANTEES the free practice of ones religion.

https://www.ushistory.org/gov/10b.asp

the "establishment" clause, which prohibits the government from establishing an official church, and the "free exercise" clause that allows people to worship as they please.

Guys, here's what you get when you "clean out the womb". So tell me what you think. Who got bullied here, Tal? All those clever arguments kind of sound shrill when you get confronted with the truth.

https://assets.lifesitenews.com/images/made/images/remote/https_www.lifesitenews.com/images/blog/aborted_baby_615_461_75.jpg

All the more reason for males to keep their pants zipped.

Guys, here's what you get when you "clean out the womb". So tell me what you think. Who got bullied here, Tal? All those clever arguments kind of sound shrill when you get confronted with the truth.

When you are losing an argument, become as disgusting as possible. Do you have any end stage cancer pics?

Your picture is a reflection of you, no one else.

The signers of the Declaration would not agree with your approach or Tal's.

The Declaration is not the law. The law is the US Constitution. The Constitution prohibits an establishment of religion.


Man did not grant them, so man cannot take the right to them away.

Mankind secures his/her rights by the consent of the governed.

When you are losing an argument, become as disgusting as possible. Do you have any end stage cancer pics?How stupid can you get? Destroying unborn children, which you support totally, is what is disgusting. You can look at that picture, go eat your dinner, and just try and forget it. That is also completely disgusting.

As to the source of our rights, the D of I completely disagrees with you as does Blackstone.

Man, considered as a creature, must necessarily be subject to the laws of his Creator, for he is entirely a dependent being. . . . And consequently, as man depends absolutely upon his Maker for every thing, it is necessary that he should in all points conform to his Maker's will. This will of his Maker is called the law of nature. . . . This law of nature, being coeval [coexistent] with mankind and dictated by God himself, is of course superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries, and at all times: no human laws are of any validity, if contrary to this; and such of them as are valid derive all their force, and all their authority, mediately or immediately, from this original. . . . The doctrines thus delivered we call the revealed or divine law and they are to be found only in the holy Scriptures. These precepts, when revealed, are found upon comparison to be really a part of the original law of nature. . . . Upon these two foundations, the law of nature and the law of revelation, depend all human laws; that is to say, no human laws should be suffered to contradict these.

All the more reason for males to keep their pants zipped.How sad. You see a pic like that of the destruction of unborn children and your response is to try and say something which I guess you think is funny. Pathetic. It would, of course, be too much for you to take a stand against this. No. Much easier to make funny posts.

How sad. You see a pic like that of the destruction of unborn children and your response is to try and say something which I guess you think is funny. Pathetic. It would, of course, be too much for you to take a stand against this. No. Much easier to make funny posts.
How did that fetus get there?

I guess it's funny to you, and there is only one solution for that.

I guess it's funny to you, and there is only one solution for that.
It's NOT funny!!!

Then treat the issue seriously and stop with the "keep their pants zipped up" comments. It's sickening.

Then treat the issue seriously and stop with the "keep their pants zipped up" comments. It's sickening.
Then you behave yourself too. I really would love to pick your brain about stuff but am scared to even try anymore.

Fire away. I answer questions. But I have to tell you that when you post pics like you did on the other thread, then your protests about being scared sound pretty fake as do your admonitions for me to behave.

How stupid can you get?

Not nearly as stupid as you.


Destroying unborn children, which you support totally

You have no idea what I support but that never stops you from claiming that you do. They are not unborn children by the way. Potential unborn children or fetus or embryo or zygotes is more accurate. Your choice of words is never to discuss civilly, it is always to paint a false picture.


You can look at that picture, go eat your dinner, and just try and forget it. That is also completely disgusting.

You're the one posting the picture and making all the disgusting comments. Calm down.


As to the source of our rights, the D of I completely disagrees with you as does Blackstone.

The D of I and Blackstone may disagree all they want. They are not the law.


Man, considered as a creature, must necessarily be subject to the laws of his Creator, for he is entirely a dependent being. . . . . . . . The doctrines thus delivered we call the revealed or divine law and they are to be found only in the holy Scriptures. ...... . . . Upon these two foundations, the law of nature and the law of revelation, depend all human laws; that is to say, no human laws should be suffered to contradict these.

I don't know from what 19th century tome you lifted this from but it's very outdated. In the country we both inhabit, your c/p has no legal standing, thank God. Divine law, law of revelation - puhleeze.

I know you three amigos will be happy about this. "Virginia Gov. Ralph Northam defends bill allowing abortion during labor"

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/jan/30/ralph-northam-virginia-governor-defends-bill-allow/?fbclid=IwAR16n9IhG5n2UJc80L4TgkPziM7yNzP9GXk3UWBF r5p_pz3XkG9B950fNek


I don't know from what 19th century tome you lifted this fromYou don't know who Blackstone was. Enough said.

You do know Northam's bill has tight restrictions and cannot be used if certain specific conditions are not present don't you? You make it sound as if a pregnant woman can just abort a child at delivery because she changed her mind. That's never been the case, nor was it ever written that way. Of course the winger version sound so much more insidious and easier to attack when you leave out the real details of the matter. Regardless its been tabled in committee of jurisdiction according to your link.

Oh? And what are those "tight restrictions"? Do you know?

It was tabled thanks to a slim republican majority.

I'll let you find your own truth JL, I've actually done my own homework.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/virginia-abortion-bill-proposed-by-kathy-tran-third-trimester-today-2019-01-30/#:~:text=Virginia%20law%20currently%20prohibits%20 third%20trimester%20abortions%2C%20except,and%20th at%20risk%20is%20certified%20by%20three%20physicia ns.


"No woman seeks a third trimester abortion except in the case of tragic or difficult circumstances, such as a nonviable pregnancy or in the event of severe fetal abnormalities, and the governor's comments were limited to the actions physicians would take in the event that a woman in those circumstances went into labor."

Not that you wingers care about tragic and difficult circumstances. Framing it as a capricious wily nily decision is disingenuous, and factually incorrect.

I'll let you find your own truth JL, I've actually done my own homework.I don't think you know, so why not just admit that you don't?

"a capricious wily nily decision" That one made me laugh.

This is a baby at 22 weeks and fair game in Virginia and several other states. If you are the doctor, what would your procedure be to kill this baby in the womb? Honest discussion opportunity is right here, Wondergirl. What are your thoughts on this?http://assets.babycenter.com/ims/2015/01/pregnancy-week-22-eyes_4x3.jpg

That's the way you right wing loons characterize what real people go through, so as usual it's you rattling off your own agenda, and dismissing facts that you don't agree with. That's fine, you do it enough where it's no surprise any more, so who cares what you squawk about? I get you hate all abortions and everything is an abortion in your book, but where are you for the women and families that do face the decision to not have that abortion? All you got is shunning, shaming, bastardizing, and maybe a bag of groceries and some gospel, but a dollar for long time medical needs, and post treatment care, where are you? Where is your commitment to mom/family and child for those future needs? When a child is 8 will you call a cop, or a counsellor when they exhibit behavior that goes against your notions of discipline? You have called a cop before and jailed juveniles.

So spare me the fake concern for the unborn child that only goes to further your domination of the least of us, using the authority to get in people's business, because you have a book that some ancient guy says that Jesus says so.

So spare me the fake concern for the unborn child that only goes to further your domination of the least of us, using the authority to get in people's business, because you have a book that some ancient guy says that Jesus says so.

Tal, you are out of line, The Bible says not to murder and abortion is murder. Jesus said that love is the real law and abortion isn't an expression of love. Every child has a right to life and to deny that right is murder. A society that allows murder of innocents is a society that will eventually fail. Egyptian society that allowed murder of innocents failed, Jewish society that allowed murder of innocents failed, German society that allowed murder of innocents failed, Russian society that allowed murder of innocents failed. It is only a matter of time before other societies that allow murder of innocents fail. God is not mocked and his word does not return void

Nice sermon, but abortions are legal in Australia too, so you are as murderous as the US, therefore will fall too. Now what?

so you are as murderous as the USAt least you admit that it's "murderous". That's a start of sorts.

You don't know who Blackstone was. Enough said.

Enough said? Nothing to say about the other comments? That's the best you got? Lame, as usual.

If Blackstone is the author, that part you quoted needs to be updated - or ignored.

Every child has a right to life and to deny that right is murder.

I agree. But an UNBORN child is a fetus, not yet a child. A potential child, yes.


Jewish society that allowed murder of innocents failed, German society that allowed murder of innocents failed, Russian society that allowed murder of innocents failed.

Jewish society is thriving, as is German society. Russia not as much, but it's still around as a powerful player on the world stage.

At least you admit that it's "murderous". That's a start of sorts.

Do you propose women who have abortions be tried for murder?

A fertilized egg (zygote) has been discussed. Are you concerned why do so many fertilized eggs die? Are you supporting funding into the matter for research to prevent these deaths? Do you really believe a zygote has the same right to life as a three-year-old child? I doubt it.

Criminalization of abortion doesn't lead to fewer abortions. It leads to more women dying from unsafe procedures. The abortion rate is higher in countries that ban abortion than in countries that allow abortion.

(I'll skip over the fact that the original Jane Roe of Roe v. Wade was paid by fundamentalist pastors to lie about her experience with abortion and claim that she was pro-life. She did it for the money, she said).

At least you admit that it's "murderous". That's a start of sorts.

You wish, Clete's comment was on murderous societies falling, so by that metric so will Australia fall. Stop twisting stuff.

A fertilized egg (zygote) has been discussedWe discussed that you didn't know what it was.


Criminalization of abortion doesn't lead to fewer abortions. It leads to more women dying from unsafe procedures. The abortion rate is higher in countries that ban abortion than in countries that allow abortion.You have data for that?

Saying that outlawing abortions does not decrease the number of abortions is about like saying outlawing murder doesn't decrease the number of murders. It's just nonsense as the chart below clearly shows. It also shows that, thanks to the efforts of pro-life groups, the rate of abortions has been steadily falling.


Stop twisting stuff.
I quoted your words exactly.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Trends_in_U.S._abortion_rate%2C_1973-2014.png/800px-Trends_in_U.S._abortion_rate%2C_1973-2014.png

You wish, Clete's comment was on murderous societies falling, so by that metric so will Australia fall. Stop twisting stuff.

Yes Tal we will all suffer judgement





Jewish society is thriving, as is German society. Russia not as much, but it's still around as a powerful player on the world stage.

They have risen again

We discussed that you didn't know what it was.

No, YOU decided the discussion was about not knowing with your head up your arse as usual.


You have data for that?

The Lancet. A peer-reviewed medical journal.


Saying that outlawing abortions does not decrease the number of abortions is about like saying outlawing murder doesn't decrease the number of murders. It's just nonsense as the chart below clearly shows.

That's about the dumbest analogy you've ever made here. And you've made some really dumb ones.

The number of abortions in countries where abortion is banned is HIGHER than in countries where abortion is allowed. Not to speak of the enormously greater danger to the woman's life.


It also shows that, thanks to the efforts of pro-life groups, the rate of abortions has been steadily falling.

That's an argument for regulating abortion. Roe v. Wade.


You said the abortion rate is higher in countries that ban abortion than in countries that allow abortion. You have data for that?

Same place you got your chart.

Abortion again? Or is the real issue telling someone else what to do using religion as the weapon to deliver the message? All the evidence says education and awareness of options have lead to a decline in the need for abortions, even among the poor, and the young, and that's at least a trend in the right direction, despite the preaching and screeching of the bully religious right that says nothing against the 10 commandments violating dufus who has shown no remorse for his transgressions and sins.

despite the preaching and screeching of the bully religious right that says nothing against the 10 commandments violating dufus who has shown no remorse for his transgressions and sins.

No Tal Scripture says there is not one righteous, not one, so pointing out his sins just means we are also pointing at us. Do you think there might be a reason why religious thinking people might stand to the right?

Because they are of a sect that is ultra conservative yet will forego their own values for a political agenda that promotes those point of views.

Not everyone on the right is like that

Because they are of a sect that is ultra conservative yet will forego their own values for a political agenda that promotes those point of views.
Yup. He gives them permission to make fun of, scorn, and even hate the "other."

We all know who the other is.

There are many "others" depends on where you are and on what side of the fence

The others are not happy with the long history of suppression, oppression, exploitation, abuses and atrocities. The other side of that fence can no longer ignore and dismiss those complaints as they always have, because that just makes the complaining louder. You said it best here,


In many cities in the US there is chaos and mayhem blamed on police brutality, but it is a sign of a bigger problem. Draconian laws targetting the minority, the continued oppression of coloured and poor people and a system that relies on violence instead of goodwill and a frustration of a society ordered to shutdown

Very insightful, and a culmination of many things kept buried and hidden for a long time.

The others are not happy with the long history of suppression, oppression, exploitation, abuses and atrocities. The other side of that fence can no longer ignore and dismiss those complaints as they always have, because that just makes the complaining louder. You said it best here,



Very insightful, and a culmination of many things kept buried and hidden for a long time.

Yeh I get it right now and again, but there are two sides to every story and as I said it depends on which side of the fence you sit

Yeh I get it right now and again, but there are two sides to every story and as I said it depends on which side of the fence you sit

True, every story has two sides. In this case, one is right and one is wrong.

I sit on the side of the fence that says put up, or shut up, if the founding documents are to be lived up to. So far they have NOT.

I sit on the side of the fence that says put up, or shut up, if the founding documents are to be lived up to. So far they have NOT.

The founding documents institutionalised injustice, obviously those who wrote them were in two minds, there was a master race and there were lesser persons, slaves. The high sounding words didn't apply to them. You can't blame today's humans for being confused

The founding documents institutionalised injustice, obviously those who wrote them were in two minds, there was a master race and there were lesser persons, slaves. The high sounding words didn't apply to them. You can't blame today's humans for being confused

I can't argue with that. What's been done can't be undone.

Like tal says, it's time to live up to all those high-sounding words. Nothing wrong with the words, it's the livin'-up-to that needs work.

I can't argue with that. What's been done can't be undone.

Like tal says, it's time to live up to all those high-sounding words. Nothing wrong with the words, it's the livin'-up-to that needs work.always did

We have made some progress, and it hasn't been smooth, or pretty, but for all the chaos and noise there is some hope that nobody has quite making those baby steps. Quite the opposite as just the conversation is a good sign, and if the historically racist state of Mississippi can make a small change as changing it's state flag, then at least we are leaning in the right direction...for now.

I'll take it!