In many states here the minority populations will turn to majorities, thanks to Hispanics and that's already happening in a few locales, so I can understand the FEAR of coming changes. That's why the dufus and repubs adamantly oppose making voting easier, and actively work to make it harder among the minority populations. Dems are already minorities and women represented in congress while the repubs not so much.

The poverty rate is Australia is higher than here. 13.5% vs. 12% here.

The poverty rate is Australia is higher than here. 13.5% vs. 12% here.

Some areas are higher, some are lower here.

If you want to greatly lessen poverty, then greatly increase marriages and stable families. "Children in father-absent homes are almost four times more likely to be poor. In 2011, 12 percent of children in married-couple families were living in poverty, compared to 44 percent of children in mother-only families."

http://fathers.com/statistics-and-research/the-consequences-of-fatherlessness/

If you want to greatly lessen poverty, then greatly increase marriages and stable families.
Please list practical ways this can happen.

Already have.

The poverty rate is Australia is higher than here. 13.5% vs. 12% here.

some selective statistics there, do you have universal health care? was this measured before or after covid 19? do you have a minimum wage that you can live on?

https://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=69

Already have.
Please list eight practical ways.

Already have listed several practical ways.

Already have listed several practical ways.

Not very compelling as evidenced by the widespread support and implementation, but is shaming your only course of action after the deed is done?

BREAKING NEWS

Voice of America director RESIGNS!

https://www.voanews.com/usa/voa-director-steps-aside-amid-white-house-criticism

The dufus has effectively taken over the venerable agencies of freedom and made it his personal PR network.

Already have listed several practical ways.
Those weren't practical.

To you they weren't, but you really don't care. Out of wedlock births are not even close to being important to you.

To you they weren't, but you really don't care. Out of wedlock births are not even close to being important to you.
Stop the stupid shaming tactics! Your ways were moral but not practical. Let's do this: Let's whip up a list of practical ways to reduce poverty and improve employability.

To you they weren't, but you really don't care. Out of wedlock births are not even close to being important to you.

They certainly are important, but as I said what do you do about it, and what do you do about them AFTER the deed has been done, which is often when it has become apparent, and sorry if I'm not entirely on board for the answers you gave to both questions.

MORE BREAKING NEWS

Berman steps down from Southern District of NY.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/politics/us-attorney-who-oversaw-cases-of-trump-allies-steps-down/ar-BB15JBXE

Stop the stupid shaming tactics!Remember...it's OK if it's true.

Remember...it's OK if it's true.
You know darn well it isn't true.

Being unemployed and poor are only two of the huge incentives to forget one's problems and have some fun -- with babies resulting.

Berman did not step down and he won't until a replacement is appointed .

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/politics/us-attorney-who-oversaw-cases-of-trump-allies-steps-down/ar-BB15JBXE

In a feckless attempt to stop investigations of dufus sycophants AG Barr announced SDNY Geoffrey Berman was stepping down. Well 2 hours later Berman released a statement that he isn't going everywhere and investigations by his office will proceed without disruption. Looks like the dufus will have to fire him personally to protect his henchmen from going to jail.

Not content with the destruction of reminders of the CSA ,the American Jacobin ,Taliban is out to purge any reminders of the American founding ,and indeed the European migration to the Western hemisphere ;both of which they find illegitimate . The last couple of days we have seen the toppling of a statue of George Washington ;of Ulysses S Grant ,the very general that defeated the CSA . They toppled a statue of Junipero Serra ,who established the first Spanish mission in California . They toppled a statue of Francis Scott Key .

Chirlane McCray 1st lady of NYC and wife of Mayor Sandinista Bill; heading a new “Commission on Racial Justice and Reconciliation” ,will decide the fate of statues of Washington and Jefferson .Her authority to make these decisions will be expansive . She supposedly has Robert Moses in her cross hairs ,the man who designed and built much of the infrastructure of NYC and the state .

Names will be changed be it military forts named after Confederate Generals or sports teams like the Texas Rangers ,named after evidently a racist group of Texas vigilantes masquerading as law enforcement officers .

What you won't find toppled or disturbed in any way is this Seattle statue of Vladimir Lenin.
https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/50431488_232277584381191_5128915379262849024_n.png ?_nc_cat=103&_nc_sid=b96e70&_nc_oc=AQlJ-gClvExz8j4twYTWRjIMvwJVUxV3JTJc2Spuf1FJVz6AhXydM0A 1WsQzAhhnm2E&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=b6221d7a590866294e7edda61d2b2c61&oe=5F12313B

You know darn well it isn't true.I think it is. I think you couldn't care less, and I say that because you never bring it up. You might respond if someone else refers to it, but it never originates with you. But hey, tell me that I'm wrong. Tell me that you're greatly concerned about it. I'd be happy to know that.


Being unemployed and poor are only two of the huge incentives to forget one's problems and have some fun -- with babies resulting.Unemployment and poverty were also big problems in 1960. They had no birth control pill and birth control was more cumbersome, and yet the out of wedlock birth rate was about 1/10 of what it is now. Your argument is not sensible. To blame it on poverty and unemployment ignores history. By that approach, out of wedlock births would have EXPLODED during the Great Depression. That did not happen, so how do you explain that? The truth is, you have it backwards. Out of wedlock births lead to poverty, not the other way around.

The great change has had nothing to do with poverty or unemployment. Social beliefs have changed. It used to be scandalous to be pregnant out of wedlock. Now it's celebrated and supported by federal subsidies. Families used to be a great deal more intact than they are now. We used to honor the teachings of the Bible. Now they are ridiculed. Marriage used to be held as valuable. Now it's just another institution waiting to be destroyed by the left. Men used to be responsible. Now the world is just there for our enjoyment and that includes women. There used to be some mystery about sex. Now it's just another activity in life. Movies used to be pretty clean. Now they are vulgar and crude. All of those factors have contributed, but the first four are primary.

[Looks like the dufus will have to fire him personally to protect his henchmen from going to jail. sorta like il duce Cuomo ending the 'Moreland Commission on Public Corruption 'when it got too close to him and his gumbas ? I don't know what Berman has on other Trump associates .It would not surprise me since NY real estate is such a dirty business. But his probe about Rudy is a fishing expedition .

There are some who have predicted how the coup part deux would like like .....open defiance of Trump administration orders, not by state officials, but by federal bureaucrats in blue states.

Meanwhile more on the liberal intolerance front The Duluth Minnesota school district is doing the book banning thingy this week . Banned from their curriculum are Mark Twain's 'The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn ' and Harper Lee's 'To Kill a Mockingbird ' .

Both books do contain racial slurs that were added to the text to depict the language of the period and the attitudes accurately .Quite the contrary to the reason behind the ban; neither book is racist and are widely considered to be anti-racist by people with normal reading comprehension .Huck Finn is set in anti-bellum south and is clearly anti-slavery .Mockingbird depicting racial injustice in Alabama during Jim Crow days .

I can possibly understand the confusion for people who are not students of American Literature .But educators showing such ignorance about the content of books they are banning is very disturbing . Are educators in the vanguard of this American culture purge ?

. sorta like il duce Cuomo ending the 'Moreland Commission on Public Corruption 'when it got too close to him and his gumbas ? I don't know what Berman has on other Trump associates .It would not surprise me since NY real estate is such a dirty business. But his probe about Rudy is a fishing expedition .

Can't say if Rudy is dirty or not, or anything about Cuomo and ending an investigation, but the dufus mouthpiece lying about Berman stepping down is highly suspicious. Rudy is a nutcase lately and has ties to some nefarious dudes.


There are some who have predicted how the coup part deux would like like .....open defiance of Trump administration orders, not by state officials, but by federal bureaucrats in blue states.

I'm just glad someone is standing up to the dufus and his bully boys!


Meanwhile more on the liberal intolerance front The Duluth Minnesota school district is doing the book banning thingy this week . Banned from their curriculum are Mark Twain's 'The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn ' and Harper Lee's 'To Kill a Mockingbird ' .

Both books do contain racial slurs that were added to the text to depict the language of the period and the attitudes accurately .Quite the contrary to the reason behind the ban; neither book is racist and are widely considered to be anti-racist by people with normal reading comprehension .Huck Finn is set in anti-bellum south and is clearly anti-slavery .Mockingbird depicting racial injustice in Alabama during Jim Crow days .

I can possibly understand the confusion for people who are not students of American Literature .But educators showing such ignorance about the content of books they are banning is very disturbing . Are educators in the vanguard of this American culture purge ?

My reading of this is though they removed the books from the school curriculum, they remain available in the school library, so the change was removing them from a required reading lists. Make sense Tom?

Not content with the destruction of reminders of the CSA ,the American Jacobin ,Taliban is out to purge any reminders of the American founding ,and indeed the European migration to the Western hemisphere ;both of which they find illegitimate . The last couple of days we have seen the toppling of a statue of George Washington ;of Ulysses S Grant ,the very general that defeated the CSA . They toppled a statue of Junipero Serra ,who established the first Spanish mission in California . They toppled a statue of Francis Scott Key .

Chirlane McCray 1st lady of NYC and wife of Mayor Sandinista Bill; heading a new “Commission on Racial Justice and Reconciliation” ,will decide the fate of statues of Washington and Jefferson .Her authority to make these decisions will be expansive . She supposedly has Robert Moses in her cross hairs ,the man who designed and built much of the infrastructure of NYC and the state .

Names will be changed be it military forts named after Confederate Generals or sports teams like the Texas Rangers ,named after evidently a racist group of Texas vigilantes masquerading as law enforcement officers .

What you won't find toppled or disturbed in any way is this Seattle statue of Vladimir Lenin.
https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/50431488_232277584381191_5128915379262849024_n.png ?_nc_cat=103&_nc_sid=b96e70&_nc_oc=AQlJ-gClvExz8j4twYTWRjIMvwJVUxV3JTJc2Spuf1FJVz6AhXydM0A 1WsQzAhhnm2E&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=b6221d7a590866294e7edda61d2b2c61&oe=5F12313B

Never heard of some of the folks on the hit list, but I can see some unsavory characters got statutes of themselves.

https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/city-remove-nyc-iconic-statues-article-1.3464427

I think the FDR Memorial in the National Mall should be taken down. After all he was the architect of EO 9066 which authorized the transport and internment of 120,000 Japanese Americans into concentration camps

Now even Facebook, that bastion of conservative thought (sarcasm meter pegged) is under attack for supposedly amplifying, "...white supremacists, allows posts that incite violence and contain political propaganda and misinformation, and doesn’t stop 'bad actors using the platform to do harm.'"

The article also says, "The announcement came after groups in the “#StopHateforProfit” campaign, (https://www.stophateforprofit.org/)launched Wednesday, including Anti-Defamation League, the NAACP, Sleeping Giants, Color Of Change, Free Press and Common Sense, called on large advertisers to cut ties with Facebook."

It goes on to say, "...that Facebook and its CEO, Mark Zuckerberg (http://www.foxbusiness.com/category/mark-zuckerberg), are no longer simply negligent, but in fact, complacent in the spread of misinformation, despite the irreversible damage to our democracy. Such actions will upend the integrity of our elections as we head into 2020," NAACP CEO Derrick Johnson said in a statement."

Read between the lines. Conservative thought must be done away with at all costs. Zuckerberg, one of the major elite liberals in the country, is now learning that the extreme left has no problems with devouring its own.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/north-face-pulling-ads-facebook

I think it is. I think you couldn't care less, and I say that because you never bring it up. You might respond if someone else refers to it, but it never originates with you. But hey, tell me that I'm wrong. Tell me that you're greatly concerned about it. I'd be happy to know that.

Maybe you need a hundred thousand people in the streets to show how much you care. Blasting people who don't share your EXACT sentiments sure doesn't rally the troops to your side.


Unemployment and poverty were also big problems in 1960. They had no birth control pill and birth control was more cumbersome, and yet the out of wedlock birth rate was about 1/10 of what it is now. Your argument is not sensible. To blame it on poverty and unemployment ignores history. By that approach, out of wedlock births would have EXPLODED during the Great Depression. That did not happen, so how do you explain that? The truth is, you have it backwards. Out of wedlock births lead to poverty, not the other way around.

See what I mean! Regardless to address your question see what you think of this article.

https://www.brookings.edu/research/an-analysis-of-out-of-wedlock-births-in-the-united-states/


The great change has had nothing to do with poverty or unemployment. Social beliefs have changed. It used to be scandalous to be pregnant out of wedlock. Now it's celebrated and supported by federal subsidies. Families used to be a great deal more intact than they are now. We used to honor the teachings of the Bible. Now they are ridiculed. Marriage used to be held as valuable. Now it's just another institution waiting to be destroyed by the left. Men used to be responsible. Now the world is just there for our enjoyment and that includes women. There used to be some mystery about sex. Now it's just another activity in life. Movies used to be pretty clean. Now they are vulgar and crude. All of those factors have contributed, but the first four are primary.

Losing control of the social norms you found comfortable can be a traumatic life changing event. I completely understand that JL, and actually have much empathy for what you and others are going through.

If you would even bother, for five seconds, to read your own articles, then you would have found that the final five or six paragraphs support my statement, and nothing in the article refuted any of it. Well, my first four points are indisputably true. I'll repeat them for your benefit. "It used to be scandalous to be pregnant out of wedlock. Now it's celebrated and supported by federal subsidies. Families used to be a great deal more intact than they are now. We used to honor the teachings of the Bible. Now they are ridiculed. Marriage used to be held as valuable. Now it's just another institution waiting to be destroyed by the left."

Your final comment about a "traumatic life changing event" is just absurd. This has nothing to do with me. Anyone who cares even one ounce about black America can see that out of wedlock births are a genuine and considerable burden on the welfare of that group. I guess it's just easier to post a snarky comment and go on your way doing nothing.

I read the article TWICE and refuted none, just wanted your opinion for the sake of honest discussion, and you could have refrained from the personal blast. So yet again you highlight the differences in our approach to changing times. Regardless I repeat we ain't going back to shaming, shunning, and shot gunning, no matter if some would prefer it, or hold nostalgia for what they think was a simpler time.

Trust me it wasn't for many, specifically the ones you profess to care so much about, so recognize that a better way is sought by them. Maybe it's not instantly successful, but see it as a works in progress, because the old ways didn't work for US, and changes will be made. You didn't want to listen before, just dictate, and maybe you will never listen, but obviously you sure won't dominate or control the direction some are choosing.

That's all fair enough. I just don't know how to respond to you. I'm ready to listen to what that better way might be, but so far as I know, in all of history there has only been one reliable way. Still, I'd love to know your thoughts. But one way or the other, this has nothing to do with me controlling social norms. It's about the real suffering of children growing up with no dad and the major disadvantages they face in life.

You might find this interesting.

Experts point to a variety of factors to explain the high U.S. figure, including a cultural shift toward greater acceptance of single-parent child rearing.

'When our parents married, there was a sense that you were marrying for life,' said Edward Zigler, founder and director of Yale's Edward Zigler Center in Child Development and Social Policy. "That sense is not as prevalent.'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1381069/One-FOUR-children-U-S-raised-single-parent.html

It's about the real suffering of children growing up with no dad and the major disadvantages they face in life.You do realize there's a difference between having a father and having a dad. Men can father a child and be married to the child's mother, but too many have no idea how to be a dad. Fortunate is the child who has a father who also knows how to be a dad!

That's another area that needs further instruction.

Better to have a dad who is doing a fair job than to have no dad.

Love to know your comments on this.

"Unemployment and poverty were also big problems in 1960. They had no birth control pill and birth control was more cumbersome, and yet the out of wedlock birth rate was about 1/10 of what it is now. Your argument is not sensible. To blame it on poverty and unemployment ignores history. By that approach, out of wedlock births would have EXPLODED during the Great Depression. That did not happen, so how do you explain that? The truth is, you have it backwards. Out of wedlock births lead to poverty, not the other way around."

Better to have a dad who is doing a fair job than to have no dad.
Now I know you don't know the difference.

Love to know your comments on this.

"Unemployment and poverty were also big problems in 1960. They had no birth control pill and birth control was more cumbersome, and yet the out of wedlock birth rate was about 1/10 of what it is now. Your argument is not sensible. To blame it on poverty and unemployment ignores history. By that approach, out of wedlock births would have EXPLODED during the Great Depression. That did not happen, so how do you explain that? The truth is, you have it backwards. Out of wedlock births lead to poverty, not the other way around."
This is 2020. Get with the times! You sound like my grandfather.

Like tal said earlier in this thread:

"Regardless I repeat we ain't going back to shaming, shunning, and shot gunning, no matter if some would prefer it, or hold nostalgia for what they think was a simpler time."

The usual non-answer. Oh well. Poverty and unemployment cause out of wedlock births except that, of course, they don't.

Better to have a dad who is doing a fair job than to have no dad.

Far better to have no father than to have a bad father.

You do realize that "bad" and "fair" do not mean the same thing? In fact, not really very close.

The usual non-answer. Oh well. Poverty and unemployment cause out of wedlock births except that, of course, they don't.
I gave you one and repeated tal's on top of it. Sheesh!

Go into the inner city or a multicultural community and ask the residents what causes unemployment and poverty and also what causes out-of-wedlock births. Then LISTEN to what they say!

The question was how your theory totally failed to explain why the out of wedlock birth rate was so low during the Great Depression when the situation was MUCH worse than now, or in 1960 when the situation was not as good as now. And you are really trying to say you answered that??? Really?? As you would say, "Sheesh!"

I worked in inner-city and minority schools for 17 years. I have listened to and observed much.

I sure hope you will come up with an answer.

The question was how your theory totally failed to explain why the out of wedlock birth rate was so low during the Great Depression when the situation was MUCH worse than now, or in 1960 when the situation was not as good as now. And you are really trying to say you answered that??? Really?? As you would say, "Sheesh!"

I worked in inner-city and minority schools for 17 years. I have listened to and observed much.

I sure hope you will come up with an answer.
Get off talking about ancient times, grampa! Let's fix this in 2020!

Still...no answer.

Well, granny, we'll just move on. 8D And by the way, I am a grandpa as of about 4 months ago. Baby due in November.

Still...no answer.

Well, granny, we'll just move on. 8D And by the way, I am a grandpa as of about 4 months ago. Baby due in November.
Am not a granny. Congratulations to you!

My answer is, stop chewing on history. Let's fix this now, for your grandchild(ren).

A better answer would be this. "Well by George, my theory failed when applied to the Great Depression or 1960, so I guess it's not a very good theory." It happens sometime.

So since poverty and unemployment are not really causes of out of wedlock births, what are your ideas for reducing them?

better answer would be this.
So now the admin in you is reduced to lecturing me.

So since poverty and unemployment are not really causes of out of wedlock births, what are your ideas for reducing them?
I asked you first.

Thank you for the congrats. We are looking forward to the "event".


So now the admin in you is reduced to lecturing me.More like advising.


I asked you first.I've answered twice. You didn't like my answers. You said they were not practical. Remember??

I've answered twice. You didn't like my answers. You said they were not practical. Remember??
Right. Practical, something beyond the obvious.

Most of the time the obvious is obvious because it's what really needs to be done, so I'll stick with my original answer.

The great change has had nothing to do with poverty or unemployment. Social beliefs have changed. It used to be scandalous to be pregnant out of wedlock. Now it's celebrated and supported by federal subsidies. Families used to be a great deal more intact than they are now. We used to honor the teachings of the Bible. Now they are ridiculed. Marriage used to be held as valuable. Now it's just another institution waiting to be destroyed by the left. Men used to be responsible. Now the world is just there for our enjoyment and that includes women. There used to be some mystery about sex. Now it's just another activity in life. Movies used to be pretty clean. Now they are vulgar and crude. All of those factors have contributed, but the first four are primary.

I get you JL, sad that nobody is listening to you. Don't know why that is but what worked for you didn't work for them. Must have been the shaming thing.

Most of the time the obvious is obvious because it's what really needs to be done,

. Social beliefs have changed. It used to be scandalous to be pregnant out of wedlock. We used to honor the teachings of the Bible. Now they are ridiculed. Marriage used to be held as valuable. Now it's just another institution waiting to be destroyed by the left. Men used to be responsible. Now the world is just there for our enjoyment and that includes women. There used to be some mystery about sex. Now it's just another activity in life. Movies used to be pretty clean. Now they are vulgar and crude. All of those factors have contributed, .

let us examine this; Social beliefs have changed, why? I submit that two world wars undid the closely held beliefs. Too much suffering, too many unspeakable acts, too much trauma. People longed for freedom from the attitudes that bred these conflicts. In the first case; it was monarchy gone mad. In the second; it was ideology gone mad. The church was powerless to stop it and receded from relevance and into the vacuum came hedonism, love of self

More like people being tired of being told what to do as the tellers did as they wanted. Church scandals didn't help, nor covering them up.

No the Church scandals just added to the unbelief, people asked how could God allow this? a valid question

The church was powerless to stop it and receded from relevance and into the vacuum came hedonism, love of selfThat's an interesting observation. It is certainly true that the church had largely become powerless. The failure of the church to stand up for the right during the Civil Rights campaigns, particularly in the south, sapped it of strength. And certainly hedonism and love of self have been major contributors to the rising wave of out of wedlock births.

Out of wedlock births have also exploded in Australia. It's gone from 8% to nearly 35% and is only a few points less than what we have here. Church attendance is also very low. Fewer than 2 million attend church weekly.

https://yournotthefather.com/out-of-wedlock-births-by-country/
https://mccrindle.com.au/insights/blogarchive/church-attendance-in-australia-infographic/

No the Church scandals just added to the unbelief, people asked how could God allow this? a valid question

Even monolithic religions are not monoliths Clete, go down the road a bit its the same religion but a different sect, more akin to tribalism that we humans are so proud of. Every tribe claims some type of superiority putting it at odds over the customs and dogma of the other groups to ones they prefer. The bottom line is religion has failed us in a practical sense, being overwhelmed by the scope and size of the greater issues we face, even as governance is a failure to solve the economics of a crisis situation. A lack of confidence and disillusionment in what we have always relied on to get us through hard times.


That's an interesting observation. It is certainly true that the church had largely become powerless. The failure of the church to stand up for the right during the Civil Rights campaigns, particularly in the south, sapped it of strength. And certainly hedonism and love of self have been major contributors to the rising wave of out of wedlock births.

Out of wedlock births have also exploded in Australia. It's gone from 8% to nearly 35% and is only a few points less than what we have here. Church attendance is also very low. Fewer than 2 million attend church weekly.

https://yournotthefather.com/out-of-wedlock-births-by-country/
https://mccrindle.com.au/insights/blogarchive/church-attendance-in-australia-infographic/

How has the church failed during the Civil Rights campaigns?

That's an interesting observation. It is certainly true that the church had largely become powerless. The failure of the church to stand up for the right during the Civil Rights campaigns, particularly in the south, sapped it of strength. And certainly hedonism and love of self have been major contributors to the rising wave of out of wedlock births.

Out of wedlock births have also exploded in Australia. It's gone from 8% to nearly 35% and is only a few points less than what we have here. Church attendance is also very low. Fewer than 2 million attend church weekly.

https://yournotthefather.com/out-of-wedlock-births-by-country/
https://mccrindle.com.au/insights/blogarchive/church-attendance-in-australia-infographic/
Yes we are following you into godlessness

How has the church failed during the Civil Rights campaigns?

Most of the church was silent during that time. We should have come down on the side of truth and right.

Yes we are following you into godlessnessAre you becoming a liberal? It's always someone else's fault. Truth is, you are walking side by side with us. Take some responsibility.

Yes we are following you into godlessness

Is it the message, or the messengers?

Most of the church was silent during that time. We should have come down on the side of truth and right.

Which side is that?


Are you becoming a liberal? It's always someone else's fault. Truth is, you are walking side by side with us. Take some responsibility.

You should probably take some responsibility yourself for turning people off to the message. Bringing in a commandment breaker like the dufus sure didn't help your cause and one could say it made things worse.

Which side is that?Equal rights under law. The right to vote, for instance.


Bringing in a commandment breaker like the dufusYou can forget that. Obama, Biden, and Clinton are not glorious examples of righteousness. They all have their skeletons to hide. If there has been a more corrupt couple of pols than the two Clintons, I don't know who they are.

If there has been a more corrupt couple of pols than the two Clintons, I don't know who they are.

Let me help you. Your boy Trump is ten times more corrupt than any two people on the planet. Take the blinders off.

Let me help you. Your boy Trump is ten times more corrupt than any two people on the planet. Take the blinders off.

Worth quoting, bolding, and repeating, while agreeing 100%, so go ahead JL, blame somebody else, while the dufus breaks laws and commandments, with his lying, cheating and stealing. And you wonder why nobody listen to you, and turns from your message with that kind of example?

It ain't the message, it's the messenger for sure. Take responsibility for it and stop blaming everybody else. You just can't can you?

Ronald Reagan would not enter the Oval Office without having his suit coat on. Bill Clinton couldn't enter without taking his pants off for his accompanying female suitor. Obama let four Americans die in Benghazi and then lied about it to promote his reelection. So yeah, that's also, as I hope you note, worth bolding.

I would imagine we will be talking and blaming stuff on the dufus for years after he leaves too, as we hear the chant of Benghazi from the right wing noise machine constantly, after investigations and a few reports yielded nothing but we can't stop you from chanting though.

Could be another reason to not listen to you too. Look at what you're talking about. 8 year old stuff and nada on the dufus stuff. TSK! TSK! Long time to be crying and complaining while ignoring the breaking of those precious commandments. Shouldn't they be posted in the oval office in BOLD writing?

after investigations and a few reports yielded nothingNo they have not.


Could be another reason to not listen to you too. Look at what you're talking about. 8 year old stuff and nada on the dufus stuff. TSK! TSK! long time to be crying and complaining while ignoring the breaking of those precious commandments. Shouldn't they be posted in the oval office in BOLD writing?Kind of like you ignoring the corruption of the two Clintons and Obama but going non-stop about Trump? In the words of Tal, Tsk Tsk.

I would be ALL FOR posting the Ten Commandments in the Oval Office. You're the one who would oppose it

Do it! Do it! Do it!!!

I would be ALL FOR posting the Ten Commandments in the Oval Office. You're the one who would oppose it
I'm game! Trump probably doesn't even know what they are.

Yeah, like Clinton and Obama have them all memorized. Stop kidding yourself.

Yeah, like Clinton and Obama have them all memorized. Stop kidding yourself.
Maybe Trump can find them in "TWO Corinthians"....

The dufus can barely hold a bible let alone read it, but it makes for a nice photo op for his religious supporters who don't care if he breaks a commandment or two.

Criticize Trump all you want. He deserves much of it, but just forget your "holy Joe" garbage in acting like Clinton and Obama were grads of schools of theology. Do you really think BC was reading sermons to Monica Lewinsky, or was praying for her with his corrupt advisors when they intended to crucify her before she reminded them of the dress with the stain on it? Was Obama gazing at the Ten Commandments when he told Susan Rice to lie on five Sunday morning news programs so he could be reelected?

Maybe Trump can find them in "TWO Corinthians"....Or Obama can talk about them in the 57 states he said he campaigned in.

Criticize Trump all you want. He deserves much of it, but just forget your "holy Joe" garbage in acting like Clinton and Obama were grads of schools of theology.
Obama can sing "Amazing Grace" on key and from memory. Can Trump?

Biden is congenial, empathetic, and emotionally stable. Is Trump?

Obama can sing "Amazing Grace" on key and from memory. Can Trump?
I don't know that Obama can or that Trump cannot. One way or the other, lying like a dog is not made clean by singing a hymn.

Biden is congenial, empathetic, and emotionally stable. Is Trump?Except for those times when he was sexually abusing women or twisting the arms of the Ukranians to get what he wanted? And not to mention, of course, the times he can't remember where he is. How about all the abortions that take place that he cheers on? Yeah. He's a real stable guy.

Or Obama can talk about them in the 57 states he said he campaigned in.
And that's why he won.


I don't know that Obama can
There's a video of it. Look it up.

Except for those times when he was sexually abusing women or twisting the arms of the Ukranians to get what he wanted? And not to mention, of course, the times he can't remember where he is. How about all the abortions that take place that he cheers on? Yeah. He's a real stable guy.
Trump did all that??? I know about the abuse of young girls at those "house parties," and we see almost every day in newscasts that he doesn't seem to know where he is. Oh, yeah, those abortions his party playmates had to get -- forgot about them!

Stable he is not!

There's a video of it. Look it up.I don't care.


Trump did all that??? I know about the abuse of young girls at those "house parties," and we see almost every day in newscasts that he doesn't seem to know where he is. Oh, yeah, those abortions his party playmates had to get -- forgot about them!If you are wanting to say that BOTH Biden and Trump have scum in their backgrounds, then I'm with you. Otherwise, you're just being foolish.


Stable he is not!I agree. Biden is not stable.

If you are wanting to say that BOTH Biden and Trump have scum in their backgrounds, then I'm with you. Otherwise, you're just being foolish.

I agree. Biden is not stable.
Trump's the scummy one. Just watch his gestures and facial expressions, and listen to his nonsensical ramblings. An unstable non-genius! His dad had to buy Donny's way through college. Actually, I almost (N.B. almost) feel sorry for him.

Typical liberal dem. Biden, of course, has done nothing unethical for his son.

Typical liberal dem. Biden, of course, has done nothing unethical for his son.
Don't forget. I'm a Republican who likes Ike.

Yeah. And I'm a spotted pony.

Yeah. And I'm a spotted pony.
I noticed that but didn't say anything.

Thank you so much.

Thank you so much.
Well, it IS Father's Day!

https://patriot.imgix.net/29fcdd9b1c872be823a4bf37428cd5768c79af32f20af7d348 4f67d9478bbbf0.jpg?w=720&auto=format

So Bolton says he won't vote for Trump, but also says he won't vote for Biden. Hmm.

I don't know that Obama can or that Trump cannot. One way or the other, lying like a dog is not made clean by singing a hymn.

The dufus knows that, and won't sing a hymn, or quote the bible, but a picture holding one is just great for the true believers, such as yourself while he breaks the commandments of that bible.


Except for those times when he was sexually abusing women or twisting the arms of the Ukranians to get what he wanted? And not to mention, of course, the times he can't remember where he is. How about all the abortions that take place that he cheers on? Yeah. He's a real stable guy.

You forgave the dufus for both woman abuse, and the Ukraine stuff, as well as endless lies for the last 3 years, so don't expect that to stick, and while choice is a peeve of yours the pandemic, and paying the rent are the issues to judge the candidates on that you wingers can ignore at your own peril. I don't think he wins a lot of latino and black voters over either. Did you see them at his rally? Wonder why?

You forgave the dufus for both woman abuse, and the Ukraine stuff, as well as endless lies for the last 3 years, so don't expect that to stick, and while choice is a peeve of yours the pandemic, and paying the rent are the issues to judge the candidates on that you wingers can ignore at your own peril. I don't think he wins a lot of latino and black voters over either. Did you see them at his rally? Wonder why?I haven't forgiven Trump for anything. I have pointed out your utter hypocrisy for going on endlessly about the lies of Trump when Obama did the same thing and you were totally silent.

He might win more black and Latino votes than you think he will.

Nobody in history tells more lies than the dufus or is as scandalous as he has been. Maybe all politician skirt the truth or do controversial things even unpopular with certain groups but trying to compare the dufus with anybody else won't work except for the true dufus believer. That's fine because Obama for all his faults would have creamed the dufus in a head to head election. You can buy all the right wing spin you want my friend and evoke anybody you want, but truth is you have to accept a lot of unwholesome crap to get behind this unsavory character and his words and antics unseen in this level of American politics. Maybe you haven't forgiven him, but you sure got me fooled with the way you rail on everybody and give him a free pass for his sins (That's not forgiveness?). So while you point out my utter hypocrisy, and I point out yours, we have a wash.

We'll see what the rest of the nation thinks about it though soon enough.

Nobody in history tells more lies than the dufus or is as scandalous as he has beenCompletely ridiculous statement. You have no way of knowing that.


So while you point out my utter hypocrisy, and I point out yours, we have a wash.I'm glad to see you recognize your hypocrisy.

Completely ridiculous statement. You have no way of knowing that.

EVERYBODY knows that and you don't have to consult Google to know that just listen to the dufus. He is without any doubt the greatest lying machine to ever be born.


I'm glad to see you recognize your hypocrisy.

No I don't, I recognize you claiming my hypocrisy! Big difference. Of course I don't expect you to have a clue about that big difference so just keep talking crap, I expect that by now.

EVERYBODY knows that and you don't have to consult Google to know that just listen to the dufus. He is without any doubt the greatest lying machine to ever be born.OK. Make a ridiculous statement, and then top it with an even more ridiculous statement. When you find Trump having sex with a young WH intern, and then making a concerted effort to make her appear to be a big liar, then get back with us. Or when Trump does official state business on an unsecured, amateur email server which is then promptly destroys once an investigation is begun, then let us know.

Yeah that's nothing like screwing around with porn stars and playboy bunnies and paying for silence or services, take your pick. You can play ignorant of his words and antics and slob down all the red meat he feeds you till you pop, but doesn't change the FACT he is a lying cheating dufus, and a loudmouth bully and you support this unrepentant sinner.

Now that's ridiculous Mr. let's go back to the bible ways and be better off. Start with him and get back to me when you get done.

I haven't forgiven Trump for anything.

Other than just about every time you have cited Trump in your posts here.


I have pointed out your utter hypocrisy for going on endlessly about the lies of Trump when Obama did the same thing and you were totally silent.

The above was a reply to talinman with the bizarre comparison of equating Trump with Obama.


Here's a taste of that "hypocrisy".

1. Fascinating analysis by Forbes – hardly a left-wing mouthpiece

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidmarkowitz/2020/05/05/trump-is-lying-more-than-ever-just-look-at-the-data/#cd54eb41e176

2. early lies - well-documented

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/maryanngeorgantopoulos/president-trump-lie-list

3. Trump's Covid-19 lies -

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/05/trumps-lies-about-coronavirus/608647/

4. Trump as Pinocchio

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/list/?speaker=donald-trump&ruling=false

5. Just in case you needed video proof

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQruDaf7bKs
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQruDaf7bKs)

Get your head out of from you-know-where.

Yeah that's nothing like screwing around with porn stars and playboy bunnies and paying for silence or services, take your pick. You can play ignorant of his words and antics and slob down all the red meat he feeds you till you pop, but doesn't change the FACT he is a lying cheating dufus, and a loudmouth bully and you support this unrepentant sinner.I do not support him, but neither do I support your one-sided, silly idea that he is any worse morally than BC, HC, JB, or BO. They all have their skeletons to keep hidden. But go ahead with your "holier than thou" approach. You're going to anyway.

I haven't really supported a pres since Reagan. Bush had some good qualities, but he was too soft as a conservative. I will defend Trump if I think he is right or is the subject of some of the ridiculous criticism that's on this site.

I do not support him, but neither do I support your one-sided, silly idea that he is any worse morally than BC, HC, JB, or BO.
They're ancient history. Why do you keep dredging up their names??? And yes, Trump's lies -- the likes of which have never been seen before in this country.

I will defend Trump if I think he is right or is the subject of some of the ridiculous criticism that's on this site.
Will never happen.

I will defend Trump if he is the subject of some of the ridiculous criticism that's on this site.

See post #585 above. Ridiculous criticism?

They're ancient history. Why do you keep dredging up their names??? And yes, Trump's lies -- the likes of which have never been seen before in this country.To point out the utter hypocrisy of some on this board. I can understand why you would not care for it.

JB is ancient history? Glad to know that!!

JB is ancient history? Glad to know that!!
Nope, HC et al. are. The more you grouse about Joe, the more I'm considering Ridin' with Biden!

The more you grouse about Joe, the more I'm considering Ridin' with Biden!Yeah, like you've really been having to think it over a lot.

Yeah, like you've really been having to think it over a lot.

Wouldn't want you to miss anything you've been asking about


Originally Posted by jlisenbe - I haven't forgiven Trump for anything.


Other than just about every time you have cited Trump in your posts here.


I have pointed out your utter hypocrisy for going on endlessly about the lies of Trump when Obama did the same thing and you were totally silent.


The above was a reply to talinman with the bizarre comparison of equating Trump with Obama.


Here's a taste of that "hypocrisy".

1. Fascinating analysis by Forbes – hardly a left-wing mouthpiece

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidma.../#cd54eb41e176 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidmarkowitz/2020/05/05/trump-is-lying-more-than-ever-just-look-at-the-data/#cd54eb41e176)

2. early lies - well-documented

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article...trump-lie-list (https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/maryanngeorgantopoulos/president-trump-lie-list)

3. Trump's Covid-19 lies -

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...avirus/608647/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/05/trumps-lies-about-coronavirus/608647/)

4. Trump as Pinocchio

https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...p&ruling=false (https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/list/?speaker=donald-trump&ruling=false)

5. Just in case you needed video proof

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQruDaf7bKs
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQruDaf7bKs)

Get your head out of from you-know-where. Those links will provide you with more than enough Trump lies to finally realize who/what you're supporting.

I'll just put them in my lying folder along with Obama and his lies about Benghazi, more serious by far than any from Trump. Or BC's lies about a twenty year old intern he was having sex with. I guess you guys weren't paying attention back then.

Like I've been saying. If you want to criticize, then be an equal opportunity criticizer.

I'll just put them in my lying folder along with Obama and his lies about Benghazi, more serious by far than any from Trump. Or BC's lies about a twenty year old intern he was having sex with. I guess you guys weren't paying attention back then.

Like I've been saying. If you want to criticize, then be an equal opportunity criticizer.

We beat those horses to death when they happened years ago, investigated the hell out of both events. Now we got a new horse to beat when he is wrong. Except this is a repub horse that YOU like, so the only thing you can counter with are the dead horses we beat to death and investigated the hell out of YEARS AGO?

You may not like it, which is just to bad but your horse WILL get beat to death, and investigated the hell out of! Real simple!

We beat those horses to death"We"??? You were perfectly happy with your liars.

You seem perfectly happy with yours so what's your point?

My point is that you cannot say "we" beat those horses. You had nothing to do with it. You were not part of the "we" at all.

Neither were you so what is that point again?

The point is that your statement was wrong. Good grief.

How so?

The point is that your statement was wrong. Good grief.

When you are given proof of Trump's lies you ignore them and revert back to what has already been disproved re your claim about Obama and Clinton "lies". Ignoring Trump lying which has been reported by world-wide media - both right and left - leaves you in an untenable position.

How so? "We beat those horses to death when they happened years ago"The pronoun "we" would have included you, but you were perfectly happy with your then lying pres, so the "we" was not even close to being correct.

Clear evidence of "Asian Privilege"??? Actually, if you want to see what focusing on education and family (rather than out of wedlock births) can accomplish, just look at this. Asian-American out of wedlock birth rate is 11%. White American out of wedlock birth rate is 30%. Latino is about 50%. Black American out of wedlock birth rate is 75%. Sadly fascinating, isn't it? Still think it's not a big problem?

49313

Again I must push back on your premise that out of wedlock births are the only, or even primary factors of whole sale poverty. For one it only accounts for women, and for another, totally discounts the long term disenfranchised. You cannot assume that out of wedlock children are fatherless, or don't have male influences, who are as poor and disenfranchised as the women, and are challenged to form that 'family unit' and find success. The whole notion of out of wedlock is a religious one that cannot fully address the real problems of the working poor, and the neglect and exploitation of that class of people, cured only with education and economic exposure. Yes goes beyond race, and culture, to a broader systemic problem.

Again I must push back on your premise that out of wedlock births are the only, or even primary factors of whole sale poverty.To say that out of wedlock births are not a primary factor of poverty is just completely ridiculous. You are completely out of touch with reality.

Only accounts for women??? Well, that's half the population. Do you not care about women? And how about their children? Do you not care about them?

Long-term disenfranchised?? What are you talking about?

Here is the problem with out of wedlock births for you. It doesn't go along with your narrative of poor black people who are "disenfranchised" and the victims of some sort of racial conspiracy. No, if you accept out of wedlock births as being a major, and probably THE major contributor of poverty, then you would have to accept the fact that it is a problem that can be solved without outside assistance just as soon as responsibility for the problem is accepted, and taking personal responsibility for our own problems is no longer a popular notion. It's just so much easier to tear down statues and engage in protests. It requires no self discipline at all.

I can tell you this for a fact. If black out of wedlock births were 11% rather than 75%, the fortunes of black America would be significantly better.

If you want me to accept your theory of a "systemic problem", then at some point you have to identify what it is.

Okay let's start with the politics of it. From the 3/5ths of a human value to the same politics that makes the laws and policies to ensure poverty.

I really never expected you to see beyond your own religious fueled biases. Look at your own professing to stop abortions, and anti pregnancy strategies, that can only apply to poor women, and out of wedlock births, by mostly poor women. Yet you don't factor the effects of divorce or of loss through the decades that factor greatly into poverty. That and other reasons are what throw your whole "out of wedlock" premise way off my friend, when its but a symptom of the greater problem of poverty.

We've had poverty even in the good old days when families were intact at a greater rate than now. I know, I understand the need you have for easy simple solutions to long term complex problems, and you are not alone in that, but doesn't make you any more right. You just don't get it yet. Maybe you never will, as the struggle to survive continues, through the arrogance of folks like you thinking you know what's good for somebody else.

A bag of groceries, and a sermon, as well intentioned as it may be, is a bit inadequate.

Okay let's start with the politics of it. From the 3/5ths of a human value to the same politics that makes the laws and policies to ensure poverty.In other words, you don't have a clue.


its but a symptom of the greater problem of poverty.It's already been disproven. You must keep up.

Have any thoughts on this? "I can tell you this for a fact. If black out of wedlock births were 11% rather than 75%, the fortunes of black America would be significantly better."

In other words, you don't have a clue.

It's already been disproven. You must keep up.
Now I finally understand why racism exists.

Racial hate incident turns out to be...not so much.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/nascars-bubba-wallace-target-hate-crime-fbi-finds/story?id=71415048&cid=clicksource_4380645_4_three_posts_card_hed (https://abcnews.go.com/US/nascars-bubba-wallace-target-hate-crime-fbi-finds/story?id=71415048&cid=clicksource_4380645_4_three_posts_card_hed)


Now I finally understand why racism exists.Because Tal can't give any current examples of systemic racism??? Well, if that makes sense to you, then go for it.

Now I finally understand why racism exists.

in this case I agree with you

But you're the same guy who thought we face "a few thousand" Brit soldiers in the American Revolution, soooo.

But you're the same guy who thought we face "a few thousand" Brit soldiers in the American Revolution, soooo.
No mention of how strange-looking a platypus is? Or an echidna?

JL, I hope you have a plan B, because it may be a good argument but nobody is listening to you. Most all the minorities know you have lied before and they got screwed.

No mention of how strange-looking a platypus is? Or an echidna?

I'm not responsible for what God has done to confound man, but jl speaks out of anger and pride

because it may be a good argument but nobody is listening to you.If it's a good plan, then why wouldn't you accept it and run with it?


but jl speaks out of anger and pride
Oh get over yourself. You didn't know American history and I called you on it. Move on.

Oh get over yourself. You didn't know American history and I called you on it. Move on.

I know what is available on the net, perhaps not the homogenised version you learn

If it's a good plan, then why wouldn't you accept it and run with it?

I said maybe it's a good plan, but has way to many flaws to be viable and I cited the history of events that have lead minorities to be dubious of conservatives PLANS. As well they should be.

I cited the history of events that have lead minorities to be dubious of conservatives PLANS.No, you haven't. You cited the 3/5 provision of the Constitution which was overturned more than 150 years ago. Beyond that, you've cited nothing.

Do you copy and paste your denials and dismissals of legitimate responses? They are starting to look alike and be redundant. Indeed I have expressed various examples of my positions showing the long history and legacy of racism, suppression, oppression, exploitation, cruelty, abuse, and atrocities in this country all through this thread and others. You act like passing a law means everything is okay, and minorities yet again have to holler scream and shout and all we get from you good old boys is a wink, nod, and another law that you find a way around before the ink is dry.

Why did we even need a civil right law in the 60's if we did away with the 3/5ths law 150 years ago? I know why. You refuse to listen and prefer to dominate. That's no longer a viable course of action dude.

I asked you for current examples of systemic racism. This was your "legitimate response"??? "Okay let's start with the politics of it. From the 3/5ths of a human value to the same politics that makes the laws and policies to ensure poverty." Now maybe you see something specific in there. I don't, so as long as you appear to be so completely clueless as to answers, I'm going to say, "No, you haven't."


You act like passing a law means everything is okay, and minorities yet again have to holler scream and shout and all we get from you good old boys is a wink, nod, and another law that you find a way around before the ink is dry.This gets so old. I have suggested no new laws. My suggestions have to do with changing behavior. I haven't "winked" or "nodded". You need to get serious about this.

I see your problem, every time I comment on the collective you then you take it as the personal you. I will endeavor to be more specific, but guy you really have to expand your memory of past references to keep us from retreading posted stuff.

I find it very helpful to REVIEW postings to REFRESH my own rather flagging memory. Changing behavior often means new laws, regulations, or guidelines, because peoples attitudes, opinions, hearts, and minds and behavior, can be arbitrary, or even outlandish. That was the point of my posts. Why are we still fighting for civil rights? Voting rights? Or the right to party on the roof centuries after declaring all people are equal?

Why did we even need a civil right law in the 60's if we did away with the 3/5ths law 150 years ago?
1. The 3/5 law is intentionally misinterpreted today . It was in the Constitution to weaken the institution of slavery .
2 The need for civil rights laws came about because SCOTUS passed Plessy v Ferguson which allowed for institutionalized and codified discrimination . Once SCOTUS overturned Plessy with Brown v Board of Education then Civil rights laws were passed to reverse the laws that Plessy allowed to be enacted .

We kind of disagree as lawmakers wanted a way to count slaves for representation purposes backed by slave holders. You just add to my case about legal ways to keep a brother down, and in control that I have been having with your fellow conservative.

sorry you are wrong . By having the slave count as 3/5 ;the power of the slave holding states in a representative government ,where the population decided representation ,meant that the power of the slave holding states was diluted . It had nothing to do with 'keeping a brother down ' that is a clear false revisionist view . Either you are ill informed about the history or you are being deliberately disingenuous . There is plenty of sources that you can reference on that issue .

You just add to my case about legal ways to keep a brother down,200 years ago???

I keep hearing from many sources this mantra of "systemic racism". It was certainly true 200 years ago. It was true 60 years ago. I'm looking around now to find out where this mysterious malady resides. I'm not suggesting it no longer exists, but sometimes in a different manner than we think. Minority contracters, for instance, get a 10% price advantage when bidding for federal jobs. So when a minority contractor bids 400,000 dollars and his competition bids 370,000, the minority contractor wins the bid. Now that strikes me as systemic racism, but not in the manner most people think.

But I'm open to it. What systemic racism exists now that works against minorities other than the supposed terrible hardship of needing an ID to vote?

sorry you are wrong . By having the slave count as 3/5 ;the power of the slave holding states in a representative government ,where the population decided representation ,meant that the power of the slave holding states was diluted . It had nothing to do with 'keeping a brother down ' that is a clear false revisionist view . Either you are ill informed about the history or you are being deliberately disingenuous . There is plenty of sources that you can reference on that issue .

Here are my links.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Fifths_Compromise (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Fifths_Compromise)

https://www.thoughtco.com/three-fifths-compromise-4588466

I get my position on the issue from someone who was much better arguing the position than I am . I give you for your reading pleasure Frederick Douglas .


I answer — It is a downright disability laid upon the slaveholding States; one which deprives those States of two-fifths of their natural basis of representation. (The Constitution and SlaveryBy: Frederick Douglass March 16, 1849)
https://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/the-constitution-of-the-united-states-is-it-pro-slavery-or-anti-slavery/#:~:text=I%20answer%20%E2%80%94%20It%20is%20a,poli tical%20power%20under%20the%20Constitution.


Slaves counted as whole persons would have given slave holding Southern states much more political power. The northern states did not want the slaves to be counted at all . That was unacceptable to the southern states . So no union of the states ;the north would go their own way and the south theirs .

Would the slaves then be better off with northern states having gone their way and southern states having gone theirs ? What was their chances of emancipation then ? The compromise and the compromises later in the 19th century paved the way ultimately to emancipation .

I have agreed with Mr. Douglas and you Tom in that it's easy to accept what the current conditions are and build upon it as indeed there would be no Constitution as we know it today without compromise no matter how disgusting the other side is. I think Biden makes that point also when he speaks of compromising with racists early on in his career. Let's understand though that while not explicitly written, the whole point of 3/5ths was wholly for the benefit of accommodating slave owners even if others were specifically identified as inclusion in this group. We both know it's be done for the express purpose of making the slave owners position more palatable to northerners, or the same dynamic could have scuttled the Constitution in the same way. The goal was to ratify the thing between the two camps and those in the middle.

Same outcome though wasn't it? Slaves were caught in the middle of it and all those immigrants (whites) eventually got the 2/3rds to move on up. We know what happened to the Indians with that manifest stuff. You have shown though for sure the real slick wordsmiths the founders really were and like you could spin it to win it, but that changed NOTHING for the chained up brothers, and that's the bottom line.

That's another reason I cannot sanitize the Civil War as just a states rights issue when it was all about the states rights to own slaves. Even that only replaced the chains of slavery with the chicanery of subjugation, oppression exploitation and cruel atrocities and terrorist tactics that cannot be spun in new laws and regulations to replace the old ones. You think a brother is disingenuous to point out this stuff that still goes on today? I don't think I'm the one that's wrong here, as the struggle continues.

Maybe we can compromise on some new laws huh? REFORMS as Mr. Douglas points out, and deal with the implementing them better so a brother can work hard as he has always done, and get a better return than he has been getting. Not saying you're all the way wrong, but some better equity is needed and that's why the dems is the best option for a brother, because we can participate in some of those reforms from the inside.

What new laws would you like to see?

he whole point of 3/5ths was wholly for the benefit of accommodating slave owners even if others were specifically identified as inclusion in this group. patently untrue Douglas got it .Why can't you ? It set up the South for the inevitable reality that they were going to lose the political power and with it their peculiar institution .


I cannot sanitize the Civil War as just a states rights issue when it was all about the states rights to own slaves. it was never about 'states rights ' people have rights and states have powers. And yes the sole issue of the war was slavery . Those white immigrants you just disparaged paid a hefty price in lives lost to liberate the slaves .


Even that only replaced the chains of slavery with the chicanery of subjugation, oppression exploitation and cruel atrocities and terrorist tactics that cannot be spun in new laws and regulations to replace the old ones. You think a brother is disingenuous to point out this stuff that still goes on today? Yes I do think it very disingenuous for you to speak of American today as if there has been no change for the better since 1865 .


some better equity is needed and that's why the dems is the best option for a brother, because we can participate in some of those reforms from the inside. completely agree with your goal . However the paternalistic Dems have you completely bamboozled . They have made empty promises since the1960s and in many cases their policies have worsened the lot of the Blacks in the country . Billions of dollars spent and what does your average brother have to show for it ? The proof is in the results and you know that there is nothing to show for that loyalty . Maybe you should rethink your premise .


This week NYC has seen a 414% increase in shootings over the same period a year ago as Sandinista Bill worries about fireworks in the city .

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/23/nyregion/fireworks-nyc.html

That is the type of representation you are getting from the Dems .This weekend the rate was a shooting an hour . The rates are similar throughout Democrat led cities . Me ? I expect better results from those who would claim to represent me and my interests .

What new laws would you like to see?

Eliminate qualified immunity. Expand civil review boards, and get rid of bad cops and those that keep getting multiple complaints with little or no disciplinary actions. (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/democrats-release-police-reform-bill-after-george-floyd-protests.html)

Allow for mail in ballots to finally end the long voting lines, especially amid the virus, as well as wholesale roll purging practices, and the discriminatory practice of closing polling places and DMV locations in minority communities.

Reforms to educational funding, and housing discrimination, as well as predatory lending practices are also on my wish list for reforms and changes. Probably at the top of the priority though is the issue of a living wage versus a minimum wage which discriminates against certain types of people and the jobs they do that have proven essential to community well being.

I could go on like this all day long, but I'll just pause here and let you blast away, as you did during our pervious discussions on race, and poverty in America.

Eliminate qualified immunity. Expand civil review boards, and get rid of bad cops and those that keep getting multiple complaints with little or no disciplinary actions.

Allow for mail in ballots to finally end the long voting lines, especially amid the virus, as well as wholesale roll purging practices, and the discriminatory practice of closing polling places and DMV locations in minority communities.

Reforms to educational funding, and housing discrimination, as well as predatory lending practices are also on my wish list for reforms and changes. Probably at the top of the priority though is the issue of a living wage versus a minimum wage which discriminates against certain types of people and the jobs they do that have proven essential to community well being.

I could go on like this all day long, but I'll just pause here and let you blast away, as you did during our pervious discussions on race, and poverty in America.

What you are really saying is implement the rule of law. You do know that can only really be done if there is a centralised law making process, that is federal law preempts state law

patently untrue Douglas got it .Why can't you ? It set up the South for the inevitable reality that they were going to lose the political power and with it their peculiar institution .

Nice spin but as Douglas did go on to point out was that change came about through the vote, and the southerners didn't lose power any other way except through their own actions that started the war. the 3/5ths rule allowed for slavery to expand in new territories and but for direct attacks on government troops we would have further compromise in new states that allowed for more slave states. You almost admit that in your post #628, that southerners did indeed have the power to push through and enhance their slave agenda and it took subsequent laws to fix that. That took VOTES. Inevitable reality of eliminating slavery took many DECADES and a war to resolve.


it was never about 'states rights ' people have rights and states have powers. And yes the sole issue of the war was slavery . Those white immigrants you just disparaged paid a hefty price in lives lost to liberate the slaves .

Acknowledging they were included in the 3/5ths rule and pointing out that they had a route from servitude that blacks and Native Americans did not is disparaging them? My point was and still is that they're inclusion made the whole rule palatable to the northern anti slavery dudes without even mentioning slavery as a specific institution by name.


Yes I do think it very disingenuous for you to speak of American today as if there has been no change for the better since 1865 .

Never said that either as I have specifically referenced that the struggle does indeed continue despite obstacles and challenges and OPPOSITION to change.


completely agree with your goal . However the paternalistic Dems have you completely bamboozled . They have made empty promises since the1960s and in many cases their policies have worsened the lot of the Blacks in the country . Billions of dollars spent and what does your average brother have to show for it ? The proof is in the results and you know that there is nothing to show for that loyalty . Maybe you should rethink your premise

Oh come on. You don't get to blame dems for empty promises and not blame repubs for opposing those promises tooth and nail in many ways, despite the billions of dollars. I respectfully submit your blasting me for not acknowledging changes since the war, so you must think some progress has been made, so the statement NOTHING to show for it is as disingenuous as you accuse me of being. NO FAIR. That's why the struggle continues because we are constantly faced with new obstacles and challenges and opposition to OVERCOME.


This week NYC has seen a 414% increase in shootings over the same period a year ago as Sandinista Bill worries about fireworks in the city .

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/23/nyregion/fireworks-nyc.html

That is the type of representation you are getting from the Dems .This weekend the rate was a shooting an hour . The rates are similar throughout Democrat led cities . Me ? I expect better results from those who would claim to represent me and my interests .

I will leave you and DeBlasio (And AOC) to settle your local differences. I think expecting higher crimes rates in more densely populated areas is a given don't you?

Eliminate qualified immunity. Expand civil review boards, and get rid of bad cops and those that keep getting multiple complaints with little or no disciplinary actions. (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/democrats-release-police-reform-bill-after-george-floyd-protests.html)Minor actions that would do little to help.


Allow for mail in ballots to finally end the long voting lines, especially amid the virus, as well as wholesale roll purging practices, and the discriminatory practice of closing polling places and DMV locations in minority communities.Mail in ballots is a terrible idea. It opens wide the door to voter fraud. The other issues are worth discussing. We don't have long lines around here so maybe the rest of the country needs to copy us.


Reforms to educational funding, and housing discrimination, as well as predatory lending practices are also on my wish list for reforms and changes. Probably at the top of the priority though is the issue of a living wage versus a minimum wage which discriminates against certain types of people and the jobs they do that have proven essential to community well being.I'm all in favor of ed reform. I would prefer privatizing the whole enterprise, or at least letting private schools get a piece of the pie. The whole issue of poor kids being trapped in low performing, unsafe schools should be a national disgrace.

I don't care for the "living wage" idea. It would mean at least doubling the min wage and would lock out of the job market those with marginal skills or who have a checkered past. Besides, only 2% of workers are making min wage, and even in our area here, which is hardly an economic wonderworld, very few places pay min wage. However, I could be talked into at least considering the idea IF it was coupled with a drastic downsizing of the welfare system since, after all, people making a "living wage" can now support themselves.

The better approach is to stress with workers the importance of doing your job in an efficient manner. Make yourself more valuable. Learn new skills. Take some responsibility for your life. But with your idea, millions of Americans would simply lose their jobs since the employers would find other ways of doing business rather than having to pay someone more than he or she is worth.

Most important factor is to have a healthy economy. When unemployment gets low, then businesses are forced to compete for good labor and pay goes up.


I could go on like this all day long, but I'll just pause here and let you blast away, as you did during our pervious discussions on race, and poverty in America.Isn't it what you call "throwing rocks"? And since we both do it, then why are you complaining about it?

I do commend you for posting your ideas. I'd still like to know where you see systemic racism.

Here's one of the leaders of your "peaceful protestors" giving his view about burning the place down. Black Lives Matter leader states if US, "doesn't give us what we want, then we will burn down this system and replace it."

https://www.foxnews.com/media/black-lives-matter-leader-burn-down-system

viva la revolution

Here's one of the leaders of your "peaceful protestors" giving his view about burning the place down. Black Lives Matter leader states if US, "doesn't give us what we want, then we will burn down this system and replace it."

https://www.foxnews.com/media/black-lives-matter-leader-burn-down-system

You've tried those sound bites without full context before. Have you by chance seen the FULL interview?

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BB15PTNL.img?h=582&w=1119&m=6&q=60&u=t&o=f&l=f

You've tried those sound bites without full context before. Have you by chance seen the FULL interview?By chance I sure have.

As to your cartoon, at some point you have to get to specific examples of all of this "unfairness".

Here's one of the leaders of your "peaceful protestors" giving his view about burning the place down. Black Lives Matter leader states if US, "doesn't give us what we want, then we will burn down this system and replace it."
Not "the place." The quote says "this SYSTEM" -- which is long overdue being burned down and replaced.

Can't burn down a system, but you can pretend his remark was harmless if you want to. As to your attitude towards our system, it's like I said before. You need to give live in most of the rest of the world for six months. You'll kiss the ground when you get back.

Can't burn down a system, but you can pretend his remark was harmless if you want to. As to your attitude towards our system, it's like I said before. You need to give live in most of the rest of the world for six months. You'll kiss the ground when you get back.
How arrogant of you! You have no idea of the places where I've lived and visited.

The system we're in needs tearing apart and the shreds thrown onto a trash pile and burned!

The system we're in needs tearing apart and the shreds thrown onto a trash pile and burned!Like I said. Go somewhere else for a while.

Now to a point I would agree with you that some of it needs to be changed, but I have a a funny feeling we would not agree on what needs changing.

Like I said. Go somewhere else for a while.
Where do you suggest I go? to Mississippi???

There is no need to go somewhere else when you know your own house needs fixing because people have been telling you the walls are peeling and the windows broken. You haven't listened so you think since its better than any other house on the block why fix it? That's the flaw in your logic my friend, so don't let the language used out of the frustration of being ignored for so long make an excuse not to fix your own raggedy house up.

Get busy and fix your own house and be grateful that you can make it a better house and not just wallow in the depths of mediocrity because every other house is even raggedier. That would be a show of national pride fixing up our own house just because it sure could stand it.

I'd still like to know where you see systemic racism.

Let me help you.

Systemic racism is when people ignore 400 years of slavery, Jim Crow, KKK, lynchings, segregation, discrimination, murder by cop - and instead key on current day wedlock, crime, drug statistics, and anything under the sun that can be laid against the oppressed group without once mentioning the 4 centuries that led up to the poverty and ongoing racism underlying all those statistics.

That's one form of systemic racism. If you want more, which I doubt, research the term on that huge library that is right there at your fingertips, the internet.

Empty and pathetically meaningless answer. If you don't know, then just don't post. Reflecting on what everyone here already knows about accomplishes nothing.

Reflecting on what everyone here already knows about accomplishes nothing.

Everyone except you. Time for you to reflect and research. Posting mindless rebuttals accomplishes nothing.

Posting mindless rebuttals accomplishes nothing.I'm glad you are finally starting to learn that. Now maybe you can stop doing it.


the debts of mediocrityWhat???

As for the rest of your post, Tal, I keep telling you that if you come up with some specific suggestions, then we can discuss them. You posted some earlier today and I replied to them. You have not responded so I'm kind of disappointed. But at any rate, saying that some things need to be changed is far different from suggesting we burn the system down. To use your analogy, it is one thing to fix the house where it needs it. It is altogether different to suggest we just burn the whole thing down and start over from the ashes with no resources to work with.

WG, coming to Mississippi would be refreshing to you. We don't kill ten or fifteen people every weekend.

Why we don't need to do mail-in voting.

Treasury sent 1 million dead people coronavirus stimulus checks worth $1.4B, watchdog finds.https://www.foxbusiness.com/money/treasury-coronavirus-stimulus-checks-deceased?fbclid=IwAR1NER5RoSF_ygOXGjJQBO6hhJjiVLFM 8MB5zcL6BRO195yhjmQIolHZlnE

I'm glad you are finally starting to learn that. Now maybe you can stop doing it.
You first.

WG, coming to Mississippi would be refreshing to you. We don't kill ten or fifteen people every weekend.
Been there. Wasn't impressed in the least. And I'm not from and don't live in Chicago.

I'm glad you are finally starting to learn that. Now maybe you can stop doing it. [Mindless rebuttals}

The mindlessness is all yours, always has been. Own it.

The mindlessness is all yours, always has been. Own it.Thank you for giving a wonderful illustration of your point concerning mindless rebuttals.

Thank you for giving a wonderful illustration of your point concerning mindless rebuttals.

I used your method of non-rebuttal rebuttals.

I used your method of non-rebuttal rebuttals.You must like it a lot.

You must like it a lot.

Just to point out your method so others can see - and judge.

I welcome that.

I welcome that.

So do I.

Minor actions that would do little to help.

I disagree with the premise that making cops accountable for their own actions is a little thing, as with a badge, gun and authority to use deadly force in serving and protecting citizens and property comes great responsibility.


Mail in ballots is a terrible idea. It opens wide the door to voter fraud. The other issues are worth discussing. We don't have long lines around here so maybe the rest of the country needs to copy us.

Its been used in many states with NO fraud and voter fraud has been proven to not be a big issue and rare, and more mistake than intention. It worked so great in IOWA during a record turnout and no fraud that the repub state legislature is trying to eliminate it. (https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/06/iowa-republicans-mail-in-voting.html)

Why because they like the dufus believes that easer safer voting by mail leads to higher turn outs that lead to repub defeats. Repubs have tried for years to suppress the minorities and poor from voting with all kinds of rules to eliminate voter fraud where there is none and never been any except on rare occasions. Present day Jim Crow tactics. Maybe you don't have long lines because maybe you don't have to accommodate the number of voters big cities do, which are made simply by closing a number of polling places and limiting voter machines. So you get those long lines I'm sure you've seen elsewhere, so how would you like to spend all day in a line in whatever the weather is for those reason. Hmm, now how could we copy Mississippi and eliminate those long lines? (https://www.wlox.com/2018/11/06/long-lines-voters-harrison-county-polls-open/)

Oh wait Ms. has long lines in more populated areas too! Imagine that.


I'm all in favor of ed reform. I would prefer privatizing the whole enterprise, or at least letting private schools get a piece of the pie. The whole issue of poor kids being trapped in low performing, unsafe schools should be a national disgrace.

Except what happens to kids and those lousy schools that privatization doesn't take in? Why not privatize the whole lousy school if that's the answer instead of just taking a few and leaving the rest in that lousy school?


I don't care for the "living wage" idea. It would mean at least doubling the min wage and would lock out of the job market those with marginal skills or who have a checkered past. Besides, only 2% of workers are making min wage, and even in our area here, which is hardly an economic wonderworld, very few places pay min wage. However, I could be talked into at least considering the idea IF it was coupled with a drastic downsizing of the welfare system since, after all, people making a "living wage" can now support themselves.

A living wage allows for eliminating poverty, and relieves the burden of welfare costs. More on that as time permits. You already have a lot of my posts to review, and are you noticing redundant questions aren't met with redundant responses?


The better approach is to stress with workers the importance of doing your job in an efficient manner. Make yourself more valuable. Learn new skills. Take some responsibility for your life. But with your idea, millions of Americans would simply lose their jobs since the employers would find other ways of doing business rather than having to pay someone more than he or she is worth.

Other ways of doing business like overseas cheap labor and robots? I know first hand how that works, and also that no matter how hard you work, everybody cannot rise to the top. Think about that. I have posted much how rich guys assign value that helps them and not workers and is that even fair? Far as I'm concerned a business that cannot pay a living wage is useless to our society.


Most important factor is to have a healthy economy. When unemployment gets low, then businesses are forced to compete for good labor and pay goes up.

LOL, between the normal business cycle and market demands and conditions even in a healthy economy it ebbs and flows drops and rises and a virus can wipe the whole great economy out. Hello, where is our great economy NOW!


Isn't it what you call "throwing rocks"? And since we both do it, then why are you complaining about it?

No complaints from me, just a respectful pause to let you do your thing.


I do commend you for posting your ideas. I'd still like to know where you see systemic racism.

Answered in other posts. You must have missed it, forgot it, or dismissed it. More will follow. No I'm not going into great details and get in the weeds of minutiae, because what would be the point?

you might wonder how it has come to this;

cops doing their own thing, poverty rampant, a health system in chaos, but it is all down to lack of leadership

[talinman: Answered in other posts. You must have missed it, forgot it, or dismissed it. More will follow. No I'm not going into great details and get in the weeds of minutiae, because what would be the point?


The point of dismissing it is to deny it.

I disagree with the premise that making cops accountable for their own actions is a little thing, as with a badge, gun and authority to use deadly force in serving and protecting citizens and property comes great responsibility.Perhaps I should have said RELATIVELY little thing. Cutting out of wedlock births to 20% would be far, far, far more productive. It never ceases to amaze me that is gets so little attention when there is so much potential for good.


Its been used in many states with NO fraud and voter fraud has been proven to not be a big issue and rare, and more mistake than intention. Which states have used mail in ballots for a general election for all voters to use?


Except what happens to kids and those lousy schools that privatization doesn't take in? Why not privatize the whole lousy school if that's the answer instead of just taking a few and leaving the rest in that lousy school?Sounds good to me.


A living wage allows for eliminating poverty, and relieves the burden of welfare costs. More on that as time permits. You already have a lot of my posts to review, and are you noticing redundant questions aren't met with redundant responses?What do you consider a living wage to be? Do you see any exemptions for teen agers and for part-time workers? Would it eliminate welfare programs? Are you prepared for prices to go up on most of the items you purchase?


Answered in other posts. You must have missed it, forgot it, or dismissed it. More will follow. No I'm not going into great details and get in the weeds of minutiae, because what would be the point?No, it hasn't been answered other than to talk about issues from two or three hundred years ago. I'm just amazed that you complain about it so much but can't identify anything other than some isolated voting issues, some isolated issues with the police, or issues with education which we both agree should be taken care of. Where is the "systemic" racism? And no, I'm not going with your links. Already learned better than to waste my time with that. Way too many disappointments with that.

Cutting out of wedlock births to 20% would be far, far, far more productive.
That's why abortion is legal.

"Abortion is legal throughout the United States and its territories...." (Wikipedia)


Which states have used mail in ballots for a general election for all voters to use?
Five states currently conduct all elections entirely by mail: Colorado, Hawaii, Oregon, Washington, and Utah.

That's why abortion is legal.

"Abortion is legal throughout the United States and its territories...." (Wikipedia)I was afraid that would be your answer. Just kill the pesky little critters. Problem solved. I would prefer to see a return to basic morality.

As to mail-in ballots, how do they make sure that I'm not filling out the ballots for my wife, my two adult kids, and me?

I was afraid that would be your answer. Just kill the pesky little critters. Problem solved.
Why not? You don't want to deal with them. Even Caucasians don't have basic morality.

As to mail-in ballots, how do they make sure that I'm not filling out the ballots for my wife, my two adult kids, and me?
Google is your friend.

Why not?What a shame that you don't know.


Even Caucasians don't have basic morality.That's a strange racial statement.


Google is your friend.In other words, you have no idea.

What a shame that you don't know.
My "why not?" was dripping with sarcasm.

That's a strange racial statement.
You need to get off of that church pew and into the world.

In other words, you have no idea.
I was so, so afraid my link wouldn't work or that you would refuse to read it. I know how you are.

Why not? You don't want to deal with them. Even Caucasians don't have basic morality.

.

That is appallingly racist, caucasians no more lack morality than any other race, but you do have to wonder, wondergirl, why it is that the black race is overrepresented in the penal system, not just in america but in other places, is it racism or lack of morality?

That is appallingly racist, caucasians more more lack morality than any other race, but you do have to wonder, wondergirl, why it is that the black race is overrepresented in the penal system, not just in america but in other places, is it racism or lack of morality?
Racism.

Racism.

but if they didn't offend they wouldn't get jailed

but if they didn't offend they wouldn't get jailed
Not true. They've been killed when not offending.

You need to get off of that church pew and into the world.You mean like working in Native American schools, public schools, or drug rehab facilities?

I was so, so afraid my link wouldn't work or that you would refuse to read it. I know how you are.Yeah. Right. It couldn't possibly have been that you had no idea. And even at that, your link had nothing to do with my question.


Not true.And again you have no idea what you're talking about. FBI crime stats show clearly that black men are much more likely to be involved in criminal behavior. That fact is well known and widely circulated. I'll be glad to link that for you if you'd like with a link that will work.

Not true. They've been killed when not offending.

I wasn't debating that don't avoid the issue, white people also get killed while not offending but not for the same reasons

I wasn't debating that don't avoid the issue, white people also get killed while not offending but not for the same reasons

White people aren't the issue, nor black on black crime, or any other crimes except COPS KILLING BLACK people because they can get away with it. Now if you like JL agree they should then you and him are part of the problem.

White people aren't the issue, nor black on black crime, or any other crimes except COPS KILLING BLACK people because they can get away with it. Now if you like JL agree they should then you and him are part of the problem.

what you are saying is cops never have cause to kill a black man

Not saying that, but covering up mistakes or bad actions by cops ain't the way to go, and entirely inappropriate and unacceptable.

White people aren't the issue, nor black on black crime,White people aren't the issue? You haven't been paying attention if you believe that. As for black on black crime, it is just swept under the rug by you and others because it certainly seems that you just don't care. If I had a choice between concentrating on twenty deaths a year or several thousand deaths a year, it would seem plainly obvious that I should go with the much bigger situation since there is far more potential for good there. But there is no political gain to be had there, and no opportunity to blame problems on white people, so it's just ignored.


Now if you like JL agree they shouldCompletely foolish statement. Untrue and you know it.

Now I get it. When cops do wrong that's okay with you. Why didn't you just say that?

Love your half quotes you like to jump on.

Now I get it. When cops do wrong that's okay with you. Why didn't you just say that?As is oftentimes the case, you don't get it. I'm all for dealing with rogue cops. Perhaps I'll just become like you and not give a horse's rear end about thousands of black people being murdered every year. Only the fake political narrative counts. A white man engaged in a violent crime is more likely to be killed by a cop than a black man engaged in a violent crime, but don't let truth and facts get in your way. I guess that sometimes it's nice to be willfully blind.

More lip service? What are you going to do about those rogue cop? You have a solution for everything but have you even suggested a solution to rogue cops killing citizens? Heck you were okay with shooting a guy in the back, so what should I think about that?

Prosecute them.

When have I been OK with shooting a guy in the back? Answer, of course, is NEVER. Do I think the cop is guilty of felony murder? No. Do I think he's guilty of something? I would think so, but unlike you, I'm willing to let the investigation play out first.

Remember the Bubba Wallace incident?

Prosecute them.

How when they cover it up and bury it for months?


When have I been OK with shooting a guy in the back? Answer, of course, is NEVER. Do I think the cop is guilty of felony murder? No. Do I think he's guilty of something? I would think so, but unlike you, I'm willing to let the investigation play out first.

https://apnews.com/fb33a7eb824b47c492f01130c73878eb

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/can-police-use-lethal-force-fleeing-suspect

The looked at the tapes, interviewed witnesses, and charged the cop in the Wendy's case. Most other cases get swept under the rug and buried.


Remember the Bubba Wallace incident?

What about it?

How when they cover it up and bury it for months?It's called investigations. How do you feel about the fact that nearly half of murder cases where a black person was the victim are never solved?


What about it?There was a supposed noose found in his Talladega garage. There was the usual uproar about it by people too stupid to wait for an investigation. The investigation by the FBI revealed a loop tied at the end of a rope used to close a garage door that had been there more than a year. So it turned out to be garbage.

That's why I frequently say we need to wait for the investigation. Refer to the Michael Brown case in Ferguson.

It's called investigations. How do you feel about the fact that nearly half of murder cases where a black person was the victim are never solved?

That's not just a black thing you make it out to be, though the number may be high for black people, their are a high number of unsolved murders in America period, but is that relevant to the specific topic of COPS killing black people and getting away with it?


There was a supposed noose found in his Talladega garage. There was the usual uproar about it by people too stupid to wait for an investigation. The investigation by the FBI revealed a loop tied at the end of a rope used to close a garage door that had been there more than a year. So it turned out to be garbage.

What does it look like to you?

https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2020/06/640/320/noose-nascar.jpg?ve=1&tl=1


That's why I frequently say we need to wait for the investigation. Refer to the Michael Brown case in Ferguson.

Investigate yes, but over the years and decades few black people trust the police. Maybe you don't have that experience, but just the stories of older, respected black people telling their stories and experiences, should at least give you pause. I guess these threads is an example of why an HONEST discussion is DIFFICULT.

It looks like a loop about large enough to put your hand in to close the door.


According to the New York Post (https://nypost.com/2020/06/24/someone-needs-to-own-up-to-nascars-noose-fiasco-devine/), no fewer than 15 federal agents were summoned to investigate the incident. The noose they discovered was a small loop tied to the bottom of a rope on a garage door at the Talladega Superspeedway. It was presumably to make it much easier to raise and lower the door and it had been there since last October. After two days of incendiary hysteria, NASCAR boss, Steve Phelps admitted there was no hate crime.
The FBI said that although the noose is now known to have been in garage No. 4 in 2019, no one could know that Wallace would be assigned to that number during the previous week.


https://www.ibtimes.com/fbi-ruling-bubba-wallace-noose-incident-leads-outrage-nascar-fans-3000688

Looks like it could easily be a noose, and they can be loosened and tightened.

I guess you'll have to go talk with the 15 federal agents who disagree with you.

Trump letter to Illinois Governor Pritzker and Chi-town Mayor Lightfoot:


I will continue to lead the way to support historically disadvantaged communities and would welcome your help in these endeavors. In December 2018, I signed into law the First Step Act, marking the first major reforms to our criminal justice system in over a decade. This brings historic reforms to make our justice system fairer and to help inmates successfully transition back into society by providing prisoners with a second chance through rehabilitative programs and fair sentencing. Additionally, when I signed the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017, we created Opportunity Zones. Nationwide, nearly 9,000 communities have designated Opportunity Zones, including over 130 in Chicago, which are incentivizing investments in areas that have been forgotten for far too long. My Administration has also provided robust, unprecedented support to Historically Black Colleges and Universities.
Recently, on June 16, I signed an Executive Order advancing important reforms to elevate a noble profession and strengthen the essential bond of trust between police officers and the communities in which they serve. My Administration continues to work closely with Senator Tim Scott of South Carolina and others across the political spectrum to advance further policy improvements and meaningful reforms.
Unlike previous Administrations of both parties, I am willing to tackle unsolved challenges. If you are willing to put partisanship aside, we can revitalize distressed neighborhoods in Chicago, together. But to succeed, you must establish law and order. The combination of crime, high State and local taxes, and onerous State and local government regulations have caused thousands of Illinoisans to flee to other States. Between 2010 and 2019, Illinois lost more of its population than any other state in the Nation. If you are interested, I am willing to ask members of my Cabinet to meet with you and help devise a plan to make Chicago safe, since a successful formula has escaped both you and your predecessors. My Administration would also welcome the opportunity to engage with you and your colleagues as you develop bipartisan policy recommendations to improve policing and make our great cities safer for all.
Unfortunately, you continue to put your own political interests ahead of the lives, safety, and fortunes of your own citizens. The people of Chicago deserve better.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/president-donald-j-trumps-letter-governor-illinois-mayor-chicago/?fbclid=IwAR0Qe7qRHJp5NSJhhJiX5ElO2XgWzXDC9YVSPBB1 obR0eWqvzWPEeaU028Y (https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/president-donald-j-trumps-letter-governor-illinois-mayor-chicago/?fbclid=IwAR0Qe7qRHJp5NSJhhJiX5ElO2XgWzXDC9YVSPBB1 obR0eWqvzWPEeaU028Y)

I guess you'll have to go talk with the 15 federal agents who disagree with you.

The FBI said it wasn't an intentional hate crime aimed at Wallace. Nobody disputes it is a noose except you it appears.

Trump letter to Illinois Governor Pritzker and Chi-town Mayor Lightfoot:


https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/president-donald-j-trumps-letter-governor-illinois-mayor-chicago/?fbclid=IwAR0Qe7qRHJp5NSJhhJiX5ElO2XgWzXDC9YVSPBB1 obR0eWqvzWPEeaU028Y[/URL]

Quite the diplomat that dufus.

more like showing leadership to the Munchkins in charge of the state and city

more like showing leadership to the Munchkins in charge of the state and city


Unfortunately, you continue to put your own political interests ahead of the lives, safety, and fortunes of your own citizens. The people of Chicago deserve better.

That's leadership? Reads more like a threat.

I doubt you will solve the problems of Chicago gangs with a snarky letter or an armed militia force. Certainly there is little confidence in the guy who makes more noise than comprehensive solutions. I mean who has any confidence in a career grifter and exploiter and con man, or any of his minions. Attacking the dems is as effective a strategy for collaboration and cooperation as the Chinese had with the Mongols.

His letter amounts to a political stunt to promote his tough guy persona but I'm sure that nothing gets done before the election.

The FBI said it wasn't an intentional hate crime aimed at Wallace. Then end of story.
Nobody disputes it is a noose except you it appears.Yeah. Me and the millions of others who have enough sense to see that it's a loop tied in the end of a rope to use as a hand hold. "NASCAR's statement about the incident (https://twitter.com/NASCAR/status/1275542920972689409?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw) adds a lot more color, noting that the noose was actually a garage door pull rope that was fashioned in a loop. "

https://www.cbssports.com/nascar/news/fbi-determines-no-federal-crime-was-committed-against-bubba-wallace-while-investigating-noose-in-his/

You started this nonsense so you end it. Whatever it was used for, it's still a hangman's knot and you can bet everybody else knows that, but you. You want to keep giving evidence to your lack of common sense, have at it.

Hangman's Knot.

I agree, it's a hangman's knot.

The classic hangman's knot (6-8 loops) was largely developed in the United States, the heavy mass of the knot intended to crush blood vessels in the neck and if tightened beneath the jaw, to lever the head to one side. (Wikipedia)

I agree, it's a hangman's knot.I'm sure the FBI and the 15 highly trained and experienced federal agents will want to be aware of your assessment. No doubt they will change their finding.

Yeah, we sure do need those fraud-proof mail in ballots.

"Following accusations of widespread fraud, voter intimidation, and ballot theft in the May 12 municipal elections in Paterson, N.J., state Attorney General Gurbir S. Grewal (pictured) announced Thursday he is charging four men with voter fraud (https://www.insidernj.com/grewal-announces-voting-fraud-charges-paterson-councilman-michael-jackson-councilman-elect-alex-mendez-two-others/) – including the vice president of the City Council and a candidate for that body."

"Reporting by NBC further uncovered citizens of Paterson who are listed as having voted, but who told the news outlet they never received a ballot and did not vote. One woman, Ramona Javier, after being shown the list of people on her block who allegedly voted, told the outlet she knew of eight family members and neighbors who were wrongly listed. “We did not receive vote-by-mail ballots and thus we did not vote,” she said (https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/corruption-allegations-keep-growing-in-paterson-vote-by-mail-election/2416111/). “This is corruption. This is fraud.”

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/06/26/1_in_5_ballots_rejected_as_fraud_is_charged_in_nj_ mail-in_election_143551.html?fbclid=IwAR2mZSlzAlroZ4wSE IG-DHMG8_W3v2pvrxh1YpniyTmsxyWc0-VKSlDans8

They got caught and charged, but is this WIDESPREAD? Is that all you found from the MILLIONS of voters in America? How about the intentional incompetence to suppress the vote in Atlanta or the purges and tactics of then candidate for governor Kemp, or the purges by repubs in Wisconsin and Florida, or NC? What's up with closing polls in dem zip codes and hiding limiting voter machines to create those long lines on election day. How about this gem by repubs in Pa.?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o32tF-S6K60

I can see why voter fraud would bother you since repubs practice it all the time, and the dufus claiming he lost the popular vote because of it in 2016, though none was found.

You had said earlier that it was not happening. I'm showing you that it is, and it was a pretty bad case. Widespread? Time will tell on that one.


I can see why voter fraud would bother you since repubs practice it all the time,Uhm...the case above is a dem state.

You had said earlier that it was not happening. I'm showing you that it is, and it was a pretty bad case. Widespread? Time will tell on that one.

Uhm...the case above is a dem state.

The legislature was repub at the time. Still is I believe.

Nope. Democrat. Governor as well is a dem.

Repubs controlled Pa. from 2011 to 2014, and Romney was the candidate against Obama.

https://ballotpedia.org/Party_control_of_Pennsylvania_state_government


Trifectas in Pennsylvania

In Pennsylvania, Republicans held trifecta control of state government from 1995 to 2002 and again from 2011 to 2014. Democrats held trifecta control in 1993. In all other years from 1992 to 2017, control of state government was divided.

Currently the governor is a dem, but repubs control the house and senate. By definition a divided government.

I guess you missed the date on the description of the video

Jun 27, 2012

"The Pennsylvania House majority leader says voter ID "is gonna allow Governor Romney to win" the presidency."* Will a voter suppression effort from Republicans push Mitt Romney past President Obama in 2012? The Young Turks host Cenk Uygur breaks it down.

Why are we talking about Pennsylvania? My link was to New Jersey.

You presented your evidence of voter fraud, and I presented my evidence of voter suppression...openly admitted by repubs. I remember we had discussions on this topic and voter ID laws on this forum at the time.

https://www.mic.com/articles/168719/voter-fraud-evidence-statistics-show-the-problem-is-hardly-as-big-as-some-claim#:~:text=In%20the%20specific%20cases%20examin ed%2C%20the%20Brennan%20Center,ranging%20between%2 00.0003%25%20and%200.0025%25%20of%20votes%20cast.

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/trumps-latest-voter-fraud-misinformation/

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/barr-claims-voting-mail-will-lead-fraud-counterfeiting-admits-he-n1232208

Fear mongering to suppress the vote during a pandemic? Of course it is! Repubs are afraid of high turn outs because the fear being CRUSHED at the ballot box...FOREVER! Don't know how true that is but that's what they believe. Is it the dems fault they haven't or can't expand beyond their base?

Dems managed to send hundreds of thousands of fake rsvp for the Trump rally. Imagine what they could do with mail in ballots !

That youtube clip was ridiculous. It was an off-hand remark by one person and was his opinion only. Even at that, he could very well have speaking in light of years of voter fraud allowing dem candidates to win.

On the other hand, the situation in New Jersey was definitely true and definitely serious. You had said it didn't exist. You were wrong.

Dems managed to send hundreds of thousands of fake rsvp for the Trump rally. Imagine what they could do with mail in ballots !

The temptation to screw the dufus is great I can admit that but repubs are hardly angels and can be rather creative and ruthless themselves.


That youtube clip was ridiculous. It was an off-hand remark by one person and was his opinion only. Even at that, he could very well have speaking in light of years of voter fraud allowing dem candidates to win.

On the other hand, the situation in New Jersey was definitely true and definitely serious. You had said it didn't exist. You were wrong.

Not your most ridiculous and dismissive statement but predictable. I never said it didn't exist, but cited the data that makes it rare. Voter suppression has court cases that make it insidious.

Dems managed to send hundreds of thousands of fake rsvp for the Trump rally. Imagine what they could do with mail in ballots !
The teens of America struck a savage blow against @realDonaldTrump. All across America teens via K-Pop and Tik-Tok ordered tickets to this event.

So when the teens take over, that's good? Hmmm.


Not your most ridiculous and dismissive statement but predictable. I never said it didn't exist, but cited the data that makes it rare. Voter suppression has court cases that make it insidious.The NJ case makes it clear that it is not rare and shows how mail in voting (which was the topic) is ripe for fraud. Court cases so far have upheld voter ID.

So when the teens take over, that's good? Hmmm.
Good for them to get involved in politics. Why shouldn't they? We're almost dead and gone.

Dems managed to send hundreds of thousands of fake rsvp for the Trump rally. Imagine what they could do with mail in ballots !

The teens of America struck a savage blow against @realDonaldTrump. All across America teens via K-Pop and Tik-Tok ordered tickets to this event.

Kind of forgot to address the issue about mail in ballots.

https://scontent.fmem1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/s960x960/106453108_3315574191838414_1099192954031906905_o.j pg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_sid=110474&_nc_ohc=yDAI61qjjo0AX8l2w-r&_nc_ht=scontent.fmem1-1.fna&_nc_tp=7&oh=119cdef1f4a8c31d8f32cec7544e019b&oe=5F1DB0BE

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3315574188505081&set=a.298069516922245&type=3&eid=ARDtN6JM0DF_TCi3D2xTs-FYoL33gazWY2691wCIr7UeXnaapOjmoExk3tM0_FOYlA4t-NmNJDnnZGI9

Kind of forgot to address the issue about mail in ballots.https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3315574188505081&set=a.298069516922245&type=3&eid=ARDtN6JM0DF_TCi3D2xTs-FYoL33gazWY2691wCIr7UeXnaapOjmoExk3tM0_FOYlA4t-NmNJDnnZGI9
My only worry is Republican gerrymandering (both "packing" and "cracking") plus closing polling places in Democratic areas.

So when the teens take over, that's good? Hmmm.

Guess they can be creative and ruthless, mine were, and smart and maybe they don't like the dufus.


The NJ case makes it clear that it is not rare and shows how mail in voting (which was the topic) is ripe for fraud. Court cases so far have upheld voter ID.

4 corrupt officials conspiring isn't widespread. One instance in one state out of how many voters? You do the math. They have also struck it down when it's shown to disenfranchise groups of people, most recently right here in Texas.

How about this interactive map and report. (https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/new-voting-restrictions-america) Personally I can deal with an ID, but recognize the challenges for others. Some of the requirements are hard or impossible to meet.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/02/how-voter-id-laws-discriminate-study/517218/


By instituting strict voter ID laws, states can alter the electorate and shift outcomes toward those on the right. Where these laws are enacted, the influence of Democrats and liberals wanes and the power of Republicans grows. Unsurprisingly, these strict ID laws are passed almost exclusively by Republican legislatures.

4 corrupt officials conspiring isn't widespread. One instance in one state out of how many voters? You do the math. They have also struck it down when it's shown to disenfranchise groups of people, most recently right here in Texas.4 people but thousands of votes, and people testifying that they never received their ballots.

As for you link, despite its description of "state lawmakers nationwide started introducing hundreds of harsh measures making it harder to vote," of the five or six states I looked at, it was pretty much photo voter ID which seems perfectly reasonable to me.

I am open to instances of genuine voter suppression, but I don't know of very many.

I am open to instances of genuine voter suppression, but I don't know of very many.
How about the primary in New York? In Kentucky? In Wisconsin? Oh, yes -- don't want to forget mentioning Georgia!

How about the primary in New York? In Kentucky? In Wisconsin? Oh, yes -- don't want to forget mentioning Georgia!

Yes these people were given the vote but should not be allowed to exercise it, afterall look who they elected

Yes these people were given the vote but should not be allowed to exercise it, afterall look who they elected
We don't know who they voted for. It was a primary. No one was "elected."

We don't know who they voted for. It was a primary. No one was "elected."

In a primary you vote for someone and all the candidates were either defeated or undesirable so as I said, and we remember what they did last time

In a primary you vote for someone and all the candidates were either defeated or undesirable so as I said, and we remember what they did last time
What did they do last time?

How about the primary in New York? In Kentucky? In Wisconsin? Oh, yes -- don't want to forget mentioning Georgia!You might want to get a little specific. Just throwing out the names of states doesn't accomplish much.

You might want to get a little specific. Just throwing out the names of states doesn't accomplish much.
Google, please. To help you for the first one, good keywords are "Georgia primary voting problems" (without quote marks).

If you don't know any specifics, then how do you know that anything happened? And if you don't know, then why list the states? And if you know so much about searches, then why don't you know the specifics?

If you don't know any specifics, then how do you know that anything happened? And if you don't know, then why list the states? And if you know so much about searches, then why don't you know the specifics?
Why are you being so helpless?

You have no answers but you think I'm helpless???

At any rate, go to church tomorrow. I get to go in the morning and join with other Christians in praising our faithful God. Some of them are men struggling with addiction. All kinds of problems are represented there, but we have our faith in Christ. It's a wonderful privilege. I'm forever grateful to have it.

Wear a mask and keep your proper distance.

Yes he looks better that way

"Chicago's weekend shootings kill at least 13, including 1-year-old boy, 10-year-old girl, reports say."

https://www.foxnews.com/us/chicagos-weekend-shootings-kill-1-year-old-boy-10-year-old-girl

That's life in the big city, find one that doesn't have crime.

My gosh. What a casual answer. If only they had been killed by cops. Then we could get some people really concerned.

My gosh. What a casual answer. If only they had been killed by cops. Then we could get some people really concerned.

yes that's what it takes, apparently, they weren't black

My gosh. What a casual answer. If only they had been killed by cops. Then we could get some people really concerned.

You haven't shown any concern since the civil war was over and less before it started so please spare me your fake concern NOW!

I'd be happy to see any kind of concern at all from you. There is nothing.

BREAKING NEWS

https://www.axios.com/supreme-court-louisiana-abortion-law-9e1a3e31-c0c1-4409-9039-84308f7370a6.html

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/mississippi-house-passes-bill-to-take-confederate-symbol-off-state-flag/ar-BB164Isv?ocid=msedgntp

Are you rejoicing to know that we continue to allow the killing of the most innocent and defenseless?

The Mississippi Senate did agree to change the flag.

Scotus just recognized they had ruled thusly on an exact same law that the Texas legislature had passed a few years earlier, and simply upheld the precedent by a single vote of that ruling so no celebration is warranted.

For Ms. the flag decision is but a signal for the willingness to change from the cruelty, terrorism, and atrocities of it's past. Let's hope this first step is followed by more positive ones soon, and not just a placation of high emotions.

Are you rejoicing to know that we continue to allow the killing of the most innocent and defenseless?

Why don't you have funerals and burials for the 60%+ of conceived "humans" who fail to survive. They are zygotes (fertilized eggs which you claim are murdered). I think the reason is you don't REALLY believe a zygote is a human being.


The Mississippi Senate did agree to change the flag.

It's about time. Took them long enough.

They are zygotesYou might want to find out what a zygote is before you make that post again.

I can't speak for others, but if my wife had miscarried, it would have torn our hearts open and we would have mourned over the loss of our child. We would have had some sort of private service for him/her. We would not have torn off the legs, arms, and heads, and then tossed the remains in the trash as is frequently done at the "clinics" and which you fully support.

You might want to find out what a zygote is before you make that post again.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Spontaneous_abortion_in_humans

The topic under discussion was abortion clinics. They do not deal with zygotes since the woman is not even aware she is pregnant at that point.

You might want to find out what a zygote is before you make that post again.
Oops, another clue you missed a lot of days during Biology 101.

We would not have torn off the legs, arms, and heads, and then tossed the remains in the trash as is frequently done at the "clinics" and which you fully support.
Actually, that's done during medically necessary late-term abortions when other options aren't possible. Very few women wait until the ninth month and sigh, "Oh, pshaw, *yawn* I don't want this kid after all."

The topic under discussion was abortion clinics. They do not deal with zygotes since the woman is not even aware she is pregnant at that point.
You'd be surprised at how quickly we women realize we're pregnant!

That may be, but you don't know you're pregnant at the zygote stage. Way too early.

Did you participate in church Sunday?