Well the dufus does it again. (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/top-iranian-general-qassim-suleimani-is-killed-on-trumps-orders-officials-say/ar-BBYz0Zs?ocid=spartanntp) He found a way to change the subject and slap the Iranians very hard where it hurts. I'm no fan of Iran and it's ways but after Vlad, Erogan, Assaad, and Kim have punked this dude pretty good he found somebody to show who's boss. Looks like the beginning of a long re election summer.

How can anyone think killing the head terrorist in the world (head of the Quds Force) be a bad thing? Do you understand how many American Servicemen this bastard was responsible for killing in Iraq and elsewhere? I think the Iranians may come to realize that this dead arse garbage isn't the only one of their ilk who can be reached out and slapped into hell.

Tal, 3:18 A.M.? Really? You're up mighty early. Let's wait and see how Iran responds.

So far the line is they spoiled an iminent attack by a dude that's been attacking for decades so yeah details matter. Wait for the next attack? DUDE! He had an attack in mind whether they offed him or NOT!

One thing is for sure: This little Sulemieni WILL NOT BE PLANNING ANY MORE ATTACKS! He is off riding a rug into hell!

No doubt he will be replaced and we will be no safer than we were before. I don't shed a tear, but this is just one action that brings more actions in this long standing ongoing conflict. Sorry just seen this crap before and it never leads to good outcomes just more killing. I mean did we stop an imminent attack or just delay it?

Talaniman: Darn you! Why do you have to bring reality back into it! I am afraid you are correct.

We chased Osama for years, hunted Hussien, and their elimination got us what exactly? Why is this any different?

We don't know what would have happened if Bin Laden had NOT been killed. It could have resulted in the situation becoming far worse. The same thing is true of the two most recent guys. Rather frequently, doing nothing is a poor option.

I don't advocate doing nothing JL, not at all ,but if you think offing a high ranking long time terrorist national foreign policy leader has NO consequences, then that would be naïve. If you think you scared the Iranians into second thought, that too is naïve. Stopping an eminent treat? Okay...tell us all about it! Just to be clear, I never trusted Bushes, or even Obamas, so called generalship of killing people, so trusting the dufus ain't going to happen. I can wait for more info before I start blasting away fo' real though.

Hoping for better outcomes than I have seen in my lifetime.

Time will tell. I do get your point. All decisions have consequences.

We have been embroiled in the ME far to long and NO end in sight and that doesn't bode well.

We have been embroiled in the ME far to long and NO end in sight and that doesn't bode well.

Those consequences are catching up Tal, first, you interfered in the politics of that country and made enemies, then you ignored the attempts to defuse the situation and when finally some progress was made, Trump comes along and toadying to Israel and the Saudi's escalates the conflict to open warfare. you would think that decades of cold war experience would have taught you something but the dingbats have taken over

Those consequences are catching up Tal, first, you interfered in the politics of that country and made enemies, then you ignored the attempts to defuse the situation and when finally some progress was made, Trump comes along and toadying to Israel and the Saudi's escalates the conflict to open warfare. you would think that decades of cold war experience would have taught you something but the dingbats have taken overI don't think abandoning Israel is the answer, and I don't think ignoring the Kuwaiti invasion in 91 would have been wise.

No doubt we broke it so we own it Clete, the easy part for you Aussies is make sure you're on the right side of the conflict as I doubt neutral is a viable option at this point.

No doubt we broke it so we own it Clete, the easy part for you Aussies is make sure you're on the right side of the conflict as I doubt neutral is a viable option at this point.

we are always on the right side Tal, don't like bullies, but Trump tests our patience

As he does the patience of his own nation, half for sure and even his own supporters. I suppose all leaders do at some point. LOL, maybe a week of peace and quiet would help everybody, as more than that may not be part of this dufus's make up. I still go with a muzzle AND a short leash!

As he does the patience of his own nation, half for sure and even his own supporters. I suppose all leaders do at some point. LOL, maybe a week of peace and quiet would help everybody, as more than that may not be part of this dufus's make up. I still go with a muzzle AND a short leash!

Yes our own leadership has tested our patience in our crisis, they speak of a GWB moment, but I suppose going after leadership is an effective tactic which hasn't been tried often

I think current events has REQUIRED any citizen anywhere to QUESTION and hold accountable all our leaders. Trust but verify is always the norm, but especially concerning our particular lying dufus! You can forgive being helpless before Mother Nature, but a fellow stupid human with a title? That smacks of irresponsibility on our part, and we get what we deserve.

Unfortuneately, Yes you do. However, you forget, what would the alternative have been like? You would probably be a war with russia by now

Maybe, but we will never know that for sure, but after seeing this outcome I wouldn't mind trying the alternative and will have a chance soon. I admit though it's kind of fun to throw rocks at the opposition instead of explaining sanity to loons. I see why my friend Smoothy was such a cheerful fellow. I'm tempted to email him and see if he has any of his rocks leftover, though that's hard to imagine.

Hey how do you know we would be in war with Russia? I doubt HC would be listening to his crap, or taking an ounce of guff from any of the dufus bromance harem, and the economy would be just fine if not better. Probably JL's head would have exploded by now, but and he would have a supply of rocks bigger than mine no doubt.

I guess a war with Iran is better, since we are still next door in Iraq after a few decades of screwing them up.

I guess a war with Iran is better, since we are still next door in Iraq after a few decades of screwing them up.

Do you guys ever think war is not a good idea? this is the twenty-first century, two thousand years after Jesus told us there is another way and we have learned nothing. We still want to fight those ancient wars, whether it is the Persian wars or the crusades we are still at it

Old habits are hard to change. Especially if you don't want too. Rape, pillage and plunder has always been addictive. What you thought men are just brutes? Maybe but we are just SICK too! How else could you explain the world?

Old habits are hard to change. Especially if you don't want too. Rape, pillage and plunder has always been addictive. What you thought men are just brutes? Maybe but we are just SICK too! How else could you explain the world?


Don't want to go there Tal, otherwise we will get into a religious discussion. You know the reason as well as I do I'm sure, but it is a message noone wants to hear

Leaders of countries have been using religion as a rally cry to fight each other for centuries when its always been about raising armies and taking/defending land for domination of the MONEY. I can respect your religious opinions Clete but save the sermons for those that want it.

Exactly

Don't get me wrong here Clete, I have a great deal of sympathy for the challenge your people face, given you are a friend and caught up in it, and would be furious with my leaders if indeed during this time they were smoozy woozy in comfort on vacations while I snorted smoke, but what does that have to do with religion? The whole world is screwed up from one thing or another fires, floods, earthquakes, shootings, terrorists, economic upheaval, and social unrest, I mean everywhere you look, something is screwed up. I can see why the end of the world appears near when human folly and nature are painting a bunch of gloom and doom.

What surprises me more I think that you refrained from your sermon at my request, and I am not so sure that has ever happened here before. LOL I was preparing to be knee deep in gospel by now. 8D

Don't get me wrong here Clete, I have a great deal of sympathy for the challenge your people face, given you are a friend and caught up in it, and would be furious with my leaders if indeed during this time they were smoozy woozy in comfort on vacations while I snorted smoke, but what does that have to do with religion? The whole world is screwed up from one thing or another fires, floods, earthquakes, shootings, terrorists, economic upheaval, and social unrest, I mean everywhere you look, something is screwed up. I can see why the end of the world appears near when human folly and nature are painting a bunch of gloom and doom.

What surprises me more I think that you refrained from your sermon at my request, and I am not so sure that has ever happened here before. LOL I was preparing to be knee deep in gospel by now. 8D

Tal, not to put a finer point on it but the book of Revelation says that in the last days the sky will be darkened and the sun appear blood red. One prophesy Ez: 45-49 also says that God will burn up the southland. Now that is exactly what is happening and I hear the smoke has already reached Chile. I'm not the one who has put you knee deep in Gospel, thank WG and jl for that.


The only surmon you will get from me is CO2 emissions is not a southern hemisphere problem, we account for a small percentage of emissions and anything we do will be like pissing in the wind. Some dingbat on UK television once again told us we had the highest per capita emissions. My response is " look after your own house". Yes I am an AGW denier, there has to be a different source to the problem since climate change has been going on for 12,000 years

https://www.news.com.au/entertainment/tv/australian-backbencher-craig-kelly-takes-shots-at-weather-girl-laura-tobin/news-story/fc9dcb7049ce2a6134035606619843b4

I'm not the one who has put you knee deep in Gospel, thank WG and jl for that.I take that as a nice compliment!

I didn't see a blood red sun, but darkening skies have happened many times before so not so sure this even qualifies as a precursor for biblical prophesy. Not to nit pick, just saying. I really have no quarrel with those that use the gospel as a good moral compass, just as I have no quarrel with those with a good moral compass without the gospel. Whatever works.

I didn't see a blood red sun, but darkening skies have happened many times before so not so sure this even qualifies as a precursor for biblical prophesy. Not to nit pick, just saying. I really have no quarrel with those that use the gospel as a good moral compass, just as I have no quarrel with those with a good moral compass without the gospel. Whatever works.

What moral compass would you use? "an eye for an eye" as the Jews would say. seems to me that is the one in operation over there at the moment. Perhaps you would use the Muslim five pillars until you realise this requires you to subjectate others in the name of religion. Perhaps you would like to sit under a tree and contemplate until you find your nirvana? doesn't stop you from violent confrontation of others as the Rohingya have found. Would you embrace Shinto? Hinduism, with its casts. Tal, I pick the Gospel, it speaks of love

I have always had my own moral compass Clete taught by my parents and elders of different sects and "religions', of which no religion has a corner market on right from wrong. Now they all may have their own flavor of tradition, dogma, and ceremony, many trabal and local and region, but no less the same.

LOL, the gospel of love has never stopped conquest and commerce Clete, and has it's own conflicts through time. I am sincerely happy it works for you and others however, flawed humans can screw up love too!

I have always had my own moral compassDoes everyone else get to have that privilege? If, for instance, the guy who steals your car thinks that he was following his "own moral compass", then does that make it OK for him?

I don't know of anything more dangerous than a culture where everyone has an independent moral compass. You can go ahead and prepare for chaos.


LOL, the gospel of love has never stopped conquest and commerce Clete, and has it's own conflicts through time.That is largely untrue concerning conquest. As to commerce, I'm not sure what is wrong with that.

Does everyone else get to have that privilege? If, for instance, the guy who steals your car thinks that he was following his "own moral compass", then does that make it OK for him?

I think those that do evil, or wrong as criminals are crossing a boundary of good behavior as set in LAW, and punishable by that LAW.


I don't know of anything more dangerous than a culture where everyone has an independent moral compass. You can go ahead and prepare for chaos.

As long as your moral compass doesn't take you beyond the boundaries set in the law, then there is no chaos but ORDER. Isn't that why we make the laws of the land to establish order, or are you saying religious law is above the secular law of the land? That in my mind would be more dangerous given the many religions of this land, where a vote could outlaw one religion and sanction another, and even one sect of a religious belief over another sect.

The freedom to practice ones religion of choice is sacrosanct to our basic freedoms and you are against that?


That is largely untrue concerning conquest. As to commerce, I'm not sure what is wrong with that.

The ancient churches and religions were built on commerce as well as conquest to spread whatever religious doctrine they were ascribed to. The king was the head of the church and what he said goes.

You know what is more frightening than a Right Winger to a leftist or more frightening than a socialist to a Republican? ANARCHY! The lack of ORDER in a land is a scary thing. What frightens any people in any land more than just about anything is the potential for the LACK of Law & Order. Moral compasses are the starting points for Law & Order (example is why do wear "SWEAR" on a Holy Bible?)….But the simple fact is that lawlessness and no "structure" are frightening to the vast majority of the world. Religion lends itself to the architecture of civilization and society: And, what you say is true in that the King was the head of the Church (King Henry The VIII) but it is also true that, to some extent, the Head Of The Church was also the King (i.e. the Pope) many centuries ago.

I think those that do evil, or wrong as criminals are crossing a boundary of good behavior as set in LAW, and punishable by that LAW.

It used to be lawful to own slaves, so are you saying it was good, moral behavior to do so? It was also against the law to assist runaway slaves, so were they criminals who were "crossing a boundary of good behavior as set in LAW?" It used to be set in law that women could not vote. Was that good, moral behavior as well? Now I don't think you would agree with any of that. The law does not establish morality. The law will hopefully reflect morality, but that still leaves unanswered the question of how to establish morality.


As long as your moral compass doesn't take you beyond the boundaries set in the law, then there is no chaos but ORDERNazi Germany and the former USSR were both very orderly. I don't think I would say they were moral. Besides, when you say that my moral compass must not take me beyond the boundaries of the law, then you are imposing your moral value on me and in doing so showing that a person really cannot have his/her own moral compass since it must, of course, be subject to Tal's moral imperative concerning the law. You are, in reality, agreeing with my previous statement that everyone having his/her own moral compass would result in chaos.


The ancient churches and religions were built on commerce as well as conquest to spread whatever religious doctrine they were ascribed to. The king was the head of the church and what he said goes.There is only one King over the Christian church. He is permanent.

You still have not said what is wrong with commerce.

Does everyone else get to have that privilege? If, for instance, the guy who steals your car thinks that he was following his "own moral compass", then does that make it OK for him?

I think those that do evil, or wrong as criminals are crossing a boundary of good behavior as set in LAW, and punishable by that LAW.



As long as your moral compass doesn't take you beyond the boundaries set in the law, then there is no chaos but ORDER. Isn't that why we make the laws of the land to establish order, or are you saying religious law is above the secular law of the land? That in my mind would be more dangerous given the many religions of this land, where a vote could outlaw one religion and sanction another, and even one sect of a religious belief over another sect.

The freedom to practice ones religion of choice is sacrosanct to our basic freedoms and you are against that?



The ancient churches and religions were built on commerce as well as conquest to spread whatever religious doctrine they were ascribed to. The king was the head of the church and what he said goes.

Tal, what I have to say about every man's moral compass is this, if it existed we would not need the ten commandments, but as we are told, in those days everyone just did whatever they thought was right, and it didn't work, it fell short of the obviously required standard. Now by suggesting the your moral compass is good enough you place yourself on the same level, and we know that even the ten commandments wasn't good enough, it was a shadow, because our own nature didn't allow us to comply

our own nature didn't allow us to complyWell stated.

Oh come on. This isn't about moral compasses, it's about the reality that some don't have one nor want one. No amount of beating them over the head with a bible will change that. You have had the ten commandments and even earlier versions for thousands of years now and still here we are filling up prisons and jails as fast as they can be built. Even those with so called moral compasses slip slide into bad behavior too as you mentions with slavery, which in America were good upstanding Christian men with the money and influence to write the laws to justify their actions and beliefs until it changed after a lot of blood and guts. That didn't stop the struggle as to this day people are still trying to get there justice and just as many are still writing laws to make it hard. So spare me the sermon about moral compasses and your bible, because I've seen how that's used to justify bad behavior.

Your gospel got you to where you are, and I'll just stick with what got me where I am. We're still equals folks in the same boat. Can't we just be grateful for the boat and share the love?

Your gospel got you to where you are, and I'll just stick with what got me where I am. We're still equals folks in the same boat. Can't we just be grateful for the boat and share the love?

This is why discussing this with you is a waste of time, I think I smell some sort of alternative belief system here

You have had the ten commandments and even earlier versions for thousands of years now and still here we are filling up prisons and jails as fast as they can be built.Which is exactly the point that Clete was making.


Even those with so called moral compasses slip slide into bad behavior too as you mentions with slavery, which in America were good upstanding Christian men with the money and influence to write the laws to justify their actions and beliefs until it changed after a lot of blood and gutsBut you said that as long as a person was obeying the law, they were acting morally. That's not my belief, it's yours.


So spare me the sermon about moral compasses and your bible, because I've seen how that's used to justify bad behavior.Uhm...you're the one who brought up the subject of a moral compass. I am simply saying that if everyone acts on their own moral compass, then you better buy a gun and keep your doors locked. Many areas in our country are already at that place. That's the very reason that Jefferson made his moral appeal to God and not to the moral compasses of mankind. "All men are created equal and are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights.."

jlisenbe: You best keep your doors locked and guns at ready as a matter of course....If you aren't armed, you are a victim....Law Enforcement rarely arrives at a residence in time to prevent anything and average Police response times are getting longer...relying on the police to protect your abode and what all is in it is not going to cut it.

Why don't you just say only certain Christians can have a moral compass and stop beating around the bush. Then at least we can understand the basis for your narrow minded prejudices on this subject, and understand you think you are one of them. I find that type of passive aggressive position to be well suited for some, but not others, and can respect it but not go along with it. I just find no love in gloom and doom and fire and brimstone as a convincing argument to follow your lead, or as a consequence of not doing as you say. and many Christians agree with that and take a different approach than just your basic fundamentalism, based on your literal interpretations of your own bible.

I cannot even say you are the mainstream of your own religion as dedicated to it as you seem to be, but different approaches is hardly an alternative that you tolerate. I mean you seem to use the L word, but hardly apply it where it can be felt as genuine at most times so yeah just come clean and admit it's not for everyone and everyone doesn't subscribe to it. You don't get to use your beliefs as an excuse not to row the boat we are all in the same direction. Unless of course you can walk on water and have no need for a boat to navigate the sea of life.

I thought love was about everybody, and not just the select few that you deem fit for it. Isn't that rather discriminatory? Why can't you just be a good human, rather than your version of a good Christian?

Why don't you just say only certain Christians can have a moral compass and stop beating around the bush.I haven't said that because I don't believe it is true.


I cannot even say you are the mainstream of your own religion as dedicated to it as you seem to be, but different approaches is hardly an alternative that you tolerate. I mean you seem to use the L word, but hardly apply it where it can be felt as genuine at most times so yeah just come clean and admit it's not for everyone and everyone doesn't subscribe to it. You don't get to use your beliefs as an excuse not to row the boat we are all in the same direction. Unless of course you can walk on water and have no need for a boat to navigate the sea of life.Honestly, I have no idea what you're talking about.


I thought love was about everybody, and not just the select few that you deem fit for it. Isn't that rather discriminatory? Why can't you just be a good human, rather than your version of a good Christian?The love of God is for everyone. As to being a good human, the Bible teaches, and I think you would agree with this, that no one is absolutely good or can even approach it. We have all sinned and come short of God's glory. We can't even agree on what it means to be a "good human", much less be able to do it. And it is certainly not sufficient to stand and say with great pride, "I am better than you!"

But the topic was the moral compass you say you have. I have simply tried to point out that no one gets to operate on the basis of his/her own individual set of moral standards. If we did that, we'd be sunk in the mud because the world is full of people whose moral standards are atrocious. That being the case, we better have a standard that sits above human ideas and concepts. You appeal to the law, and I think that's a good appeal so far as it goes, but the law does not make people moral, and we even can have laws which are not moral themselves. If you believe the law makes people moral, then try walking certain neighborhoods in Chicago at midnight and see how much the law controls morality.

JL, I can only speak for myself and not you, or the multitude of other humans, but in no way do I consider myself better than any other. I give it my best shot and leave others to do the same. Right or wrong that's just ME. No the law doesn't make anyone moral, and indeed some think they are above it and there may well be a double standard in how and who those laws are applied to, but the law should define acceptable behavior to have any semblance of order, and as more facts and data presents itself then the more we can change or define the law through orderly processes. You're not suggesting we abandon those processes by which we derive that order are you? Just because some places are more dangerous than others for whatever reason does not mean the law can bring morality to those that break the law and I have never inferred such a thing.

It does hold into account the actions the law says is unacceptable. Yeah, over time the concept of unacceptable has changed and no doubt keep changing as we evolve, grow and learn, because what do you expect from flawed humans, a PERFECT system? That's rather naïve.

Now I can agree in the greater picture and things beyond us humans, and for me that means a relationship with a God that I understand and that's where MY moral compass is derived. I put nothing between that and as flawed a human as I may be I do my best. Look elsewhere for perfection because I ain't it.

glad we got that out of the way, now back to more mundane things, in what way does Iran shooting down a Ukrainian plane change the status quo?

As it turns out, it does appear that the peace loving Iranians did shoot down the plane, so your question is a really interesting one. I wonder if they bought the missile with some of the money Obama gave them?

As it turns out, it does appear that the peace loving Iranians did shoot down the plane, so your question is a really interesting one. I wonder if they bought the missile with some of the money Obama gave them?

I have no doubt that after the successful test by Putin of shooting down airliners in the Ukraine they wanted to try it out, but with no american planes nearby what were they to do? well the Ukraine appeared to be a friend of Trump, so hey presto, here is a message

As it turns out, it does appear that the peace loving Iranians did shoot down the plane, so your question is a really interesting one. I wonder if they bought the missile with some of the money Obama gave them?
Obama didn't give them any money. The money they got was their own -- after the US dropped sanctions that unfroze Iranian money held in banks around the world.

convienent story, Obama should have gone further and brought them in from the cold

convienent story, Obama should have gone further and brought them in from the cold
"Convenient story"? Truth! Research it. I dare you!

So Obama allowed nearly 2 bil to go to a terrorist state and we're supposed to feel better because it was their money being held by the U.S. government? Sorry. I don't feel better. The money should never have been released. It is on the same level as releasing money to Nazi Germany in 1940. It was completely irresponsible.

So Obama allowed nearly 2 bil to go to a terrorist state and we're supposed to feel better because it was their money being held by the U.S. government? Sorry. I don't feel better. The money should never have been released. It is on the same level as releasing money to Nazi Germany in 1940. It was completely irresponsible.
I won't post the history and reasoning here. Do you want a link to read?

"Convenient story"? Truth! Research it. I dare you!

Do you think I am ignorant of the truth. Obama "earned" a peace prize for doing nothing and that is what he did in the Iran deal, negotiated only what the Iranians were already doing. A lost opportunity

I won't post the history and reasoning here. Do you want a link to read?If you have reasoning to justify giving nearly 2 bil in cash to one of the major terrorist states in the entire world, then state it here. I'm not interested in a link to nowhere. And it would need to be more substantial than asserting that since Obama did it, it must surely have been a wonderful thing to do.

There you conservatives go again. Taking the facts of history and dismissing them or worse twisting them and cherry picking those facts to fit a narrative that works for you. So many links have been supplied and discussed on this matter already so just insisting on them again accomplishes exactly what? A second chance at ignoring, dismissing, or twisting the facts?

How loud did you holler about HC's wrong doing and how many investigations into Benghazi did repubs have that were highly public? What were the results after all that hollering and investigating? She was totally cleared of EVERYTHING by of all people the dufus's own administration. Still you repeat the lies as loudly as ever. I think you serial haters have a real zest for liars and cheaters while you smear everybody else to cover for your own hate and lies and cheating.

So while the dufus touts his great accomplishments and you cheer him on and defend his lies and incompetence, nobody feels safer and are still looking for the next shoe to drop, abandoned the containment of ISIS, elevated Vlad to fill the vacuum of his cowardly retreat, and circle the wagons around the lying cheating dufus hunted for the truth which can only be defended by more lies and cheating as Iran threatens to get the bomb it already willingly gave up. The dufus lies are almost as strong as the right wing zeal to believe them and find blame in everybody and everything else.

If that's the example of your moral compass I would love to see you explain yourself to Jesus. I doubt you even get that far since following a proven liar with a history of cheating and stealing surely leads straight to hell. If not, then there must be no such thing.

She was totally cleared of EVERYTHING by of all people the dufus's own administration.Uhm...no, she wasn't. She had a private email server in her home. She conducted official government business on that server. She had classified information on the server which was, by the way, unsecured. When that information became public, she destroyed half of the data on the hard drive. She also made a point of destroying every government issued cell phone she had been given. Then FBI director Comey, now known to have been corrupt, found that she was guilty of criminal behavior but then declined to bring charges against her. So in what universe does all of that amount to "being cleared"? Her incredibly reckless and irresponsible behavior is public record and the facts above are unquestioned.


I doubt you even get that far since following a proven liar with a history of cheating and stealing surely leads straight to hell.I did not follow Obama and Clinton. I am also not a supporter of Trump, but I will vote for him rather than vote for amazingly corrupt and incompetent people like Clinton, Sanders, Warren, or Spartacus. I will also not refuse to give him credit for his accomplishments, as you are doing, simply because you hate him. The economy is roaring, we are energy independent (thought to be impossible just 20 years ago), we are restoring sanity to the federal judiciary, and unlike your heroes, he supports the right of unborn children to live rather than be cruelly put to death in the womb, and he supports the right of Israel to exist in peace.

The Iranians have killed more IRANIANS this last two weeks than the Americans have...A LOT MORE! Damn plane was loaded with IRANIANS! This on top of the 70 or so IRANIANS that OTHER IRANIANS CRUSHED DURING THE FUNERAL PROCESSION FOR THEIR DEAD TERRORIST who was already merely burnt pieces (there was no body). If you don't get an inkling that the IRANIANS are an uncivilized bunch, you aren't watching: Iranians at the top in Iran are bat crap crazy...They are crazy as run over dogs! I have know Iranians in the professional world that are the finest people you would ever want to meet but the one's leading Iran are selfish zealots who are taking a potentially great nation right into hell.

Stop it with this nonsense that Obama gave the Iranians THEIR money back: BULLS&$T! That's like putting lipstick on a pig...its still a pig! In no way should any measure of "whose money it really is" override the COMMON SENSE NOT TO GIVE MONEY TO A TERRORIST STATE! In no way can you contrive an argument that supports such a supposition! FROZEN? UNFROZEN? THE IDEA ITSELF WAS HALF-BAKED!

In no way should any measure of "whose money it really is" override the COMMON SENSE NOT TO GIVE MONEY TO A TERRORIST STATE!Well said.

If all you say is true, then why has HC not been prosecuted? I mean with all your EVIDENCE why has that not happened? Economic gains made by Obama continued under the dufus and why you liberal/dem haters cannot acknowledge that is symptomatic of your disdain for the simple facts of the matter.

I have had my doubts before whether you beleived the lies of the dufus out of desperation or ignorance, but I conclude now that it's a combination of both! I don't see that changing either, as long as a corrupt dufus is allowed to get away with his lies cheating and stealing with bo accounting.

If nothing else maybe the senate trial will reveal facts to the people.

If all you say is true, then why has HC not been prosecuted? I mean with all your EVIDENCE why has that not happened?Which of the facts I noted above are you denying happened? Comey himself acknowledged that it all happened and that HC was technically guilty of breaking the law. Do you really deny any of that?


Economic gains made by Obama continued under the dufus and why you liberal/dem haters cannot acknowledge that is symptomatic of your disdain for the simple facts of the matter.I have no problem in acknowledging that and never have. I just hope you can acknowledge that Trump took an economy which was OK and has it roaring along.


I have had my doubts before whether you beleived the lies of the dufus out of desperation or ignorance, but I conclude now that it's a combination of both! I don't see that changing either, as long as a corrupt dufus is allowed to get away with his lies cheating and stealing with bo accounting.It's not a case of believing Trump. It's a case of simply looking at the utter lack of evidence the dems have managed to come up with and seeing that in no way can you toss a pres out of office on that basis.

As I've been saying for weeks, give us the names of those witnesses who testified to having personal, first-hand knowledge of Trump's supposed wrong doing. Who are they? Truth is, the dems case is so weak that Pelosi is afraid to send it to the Senate. It's over.

This is nothing more than hatred of Trump, pure and simple. It has nothing to do with justice.

Dems have been calling for those witnesses since this started so let's not ignore the fact the dufus has specifically blocked them, so why you have no clue as to their names are beyond me and you still haven't answered the question of why repubs haven't prosecued HC if what YOU say is true? That's all I asked and if you cannot answer then say so. I'm not disputing your facts just the FACT repubs haven't acted on them after all that hollering and chanting.

I'm not disputing your facts just the FACT repubs haven't acted on them after all that hollering and chanting.That's fair enough. I would conclude that she was unspeakably foolish in her behavior, but it could not, evidently, be demonstrated to be criminal.

Still, the fact that she went to such great lengths to destroy half of the data on the hard drive just stinks to the high heavens. It certainly has all the appearance of guilt. Can you think of any reasonable explanation for that? The truth seems to be that the pro-abortion crowd is willing to cut HC, BC, and BaO all kinds of slack in these matters, while the pro-life crowd is willing to do likewise with DT, so neither crowd has any entitlement to the moral high ground in politics.

Can we get back to "current events"?

Seems the Iranians have pretty well backed down. Of course, shooting down a civilian airliner wasn't exactly the smartest move they could have made.

Seems the Iranians have pretty well backed down. Of course, shooting down a civilian airliner wasn't exactly the smartest move they could have made.

You have to think their military may not be under strict control. Just one more nail in their coffin

Well the Iranians have admitted they shot down the passenger plane by mistake so that episode is solved at least for now, and after some thought though, the whole notion of protecting these shadow and proxy forces under the official government umbrella is somewhat despicable in of tself. While I don't like the way the dufus crew is handling this with all kinds of excuses and justifications that just don't smell right, and still think it was a gross over reaction, and they were looking for anything to make a point, and a bad guy in plain sight just fir the bill. It's somewhat disturbing when you cannot be straight with your own government about such a huge course of action with the spin that followed.

Can't say this was entirely on the dufus though as we have watched congress after congress defer it's responsibility to the executive branch as presidents have grabbed more power in the absence of congressional guidance. It's not just military actions of which I speak but domestic policy as well and that's the heart of the problem. Every other year during elections our elected officials just disappear from governing completely, and not that the are working very hard before an election either. Now that we have a fellow in the WH who is only to glad to step into the vacuum, and deal his dirty deeds, and spin them any way he sees an advantage for himself, know full well his party will do nothing to restrain check or balance whatever urges he may have on any subject.

LOL, they can't remove him for sure since he is the party and without him they have NOTHING, NADA, zip! So we have a lying cheating dufus who operates in full view with his antics without a peep from his party with absolutely no shame. Allies, friends, or foes are but pawns for the dufus enterprise, and our government is just the trappings of his own delusions. Putting a bell on the cat is inadequate as the real issue is getting the bull out of the china shop, or what will be left of it.

In other words, the economy is great, we are now amazingly energy independent, and we just took out a despicable foreign murderer, but I hate Trump, so I'm still going to be filled with vitriol. I get it.

That's just it, you don't get it. Your words are far from the mark, as wages are growing slower than prices, considering unemployment is historically low, and is being energy independent saving you any money? Consider the costs of having multiple jobs and the costs of transportation to get to those jobs to keep the lights on, and forget groceries and rent. Sure the overall economy looks great, but huge swaths of the population aren't even a part of it.

And what happens when that debt you are supposedly so worried about catches up to us? No JL I don't think you get it at all.

Hmm. Where to begin? First of all, wages are actually growing faster than inflation and is better than the Obama years when, I'll bet, you were not complaining about it. I would agree it needs to get better, but still you're having to make things up now in order to complain. Being energy independent is incredibly important from the perspective of national security, and it is wonderful to know that we are not throwing billions of dollars into the pockets of Arab sheikhs in order to buy oil. Now we are beginning to be the ones who are selling gas and oil. Debt is a concern for sure, but between the two of us, I'm the only one who was concerned about it when your beloved Mr. Obama was setting records with national borrowing. You couldn't have cared less back then. The only reason you mention it now is because you are desperate to find something to complain about with Mr. Trump.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/grogonomics/2019/feb/21/wages-are-growing-faster-than-inflation-but-thats-not-saying-much

The biggest question is why are two retired guys up at 3:00 in the morning? I thought retired people were supposed to sleep late.

I did the practical math and while you are correct wages are growing faster than inflation it's not by much, and prices are going up faster than both, and that's just a fact the data shows for the last few decades that predates Mr. Obama. That is true for most people except those in the upper income brackets who have seen great increases in their income despite the recession in which Obama's debts were incurred as well as adding hidden costs of wars and middle class tax cuts, and public works projects. Let's not forget either the under reported news of large companies and their underfunded pensions (https://www.fool.com/retirement/general/2010/04/22/pension-problems-are-just-beginning.aspx)they did away with further exacerbating those middle class workers job losses.



Moreover, there's evidence that some companies have taken unfair advantage of PBGC coverage when terminating pension plans. A report from the government's General Accounting Office showed that the sponsors of 10 underfunded pension plans paid 40 executives a total of $350 million in compensation shortly before killing the plans, resulting in employees getting smaller benefits and leaving the PBGC -- and ultimately, taxpayers -- to shoulder much of the shortfall. The report itself didn't name the companies, but independent sources said the companies involved included
UAL's (Nasdaq: UAUA) United Airlines, US Airways(NYSE: LCC), and Polaroid.

I get why people say the economy on average is great, but the stories of those that fall below average cannot be ignored, as easy as that is to do if you are average and above. For those reasons that I outlined above and have articulated before I cannot get on the dufus as savior train given the many facets of this economy that you don't seem to know. It's not just about the dufus and his bragging, as I have seen this supply side economic roller coaster many times with the same results, but NEVER as much lying and exaggeration so easily swallowed by the least informed average and above citizens.

All I'm saying guy is judging the economy by a few parameters completely misses the over all picture and the people involved in it. You cannot ignore slow wage and economic growth while having such low unemployment but rising costs. That's fiscal malpractice.

I did the practical math and while you are correct wages are growing faster than inflation it's not by much, and prices are going up faster than both.I'd love to see that math. If you have concluded that prices are going up faster than inflation, then I wonder if you understand what the term "inflation" refers to. Just another symptom of TDS??


All I'm saying guy is judging the economy by a few parameters completely misses the over all picture and the people involved in it.You're simply saying that the data plainly supports the idea that the economy is doing very well and you don't like that conclusion because you despise Trump and are unwilling to give him even a whisper of credit for anything. I get why you don't like him. I don't like him either and I sympathize with you about that, but I'm not going to allow that to get me to make all kinds of wild accusations that cannot be supported by data.

They aren't wild accusations, just so many stories like this (https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/economy/2018/06/18/who-missing-out-economic-recovery-americas-30-poorest-towns/35936583/), and this one. (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/07/business/texas-economy-jobs-cities.html) Maybe that changes soon, hopefully, but as it stands some are still struggling in this great economy and that's many millions of real people.

The "wild accusation" I was referring to was the false claim that prices are somehow rising faster than inflation. It's an absurd claim which is untrue by definition, and your links above do nothing to support it.

https://www.gobankingrates.com/making-money/economy/rising-cost-of-living-in-america/

https://cdn.gobankingrates.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/181107_GBR_AmericansArentSaving_1920x1080.jpg

The "wild accusation" I was referring to was the false claim that prices are somehow rising faster than inflation. It's an absurd claim which is untrue by definition, and your links above do nothing to support it.

Cannot say how things are going in your economy but prices rising faster than inflation is a reality in my economy as is wage stagnation.

Definition of inflation: "In economics, inflation is a sustained increase in the general price level of goods and services in an economy over a period of time." How can prices rise faster than inflation when inflation is a measure of that price rise?

Sorry Tal, but your HUGE chart proved nothing relevant to this conversation.

I hope you find this article (https://mises.org/library/inflation-about-general-increases-prices) as amusing as I did. The chart goes to my assertion that it's all about real people and not just looking good on paper as an average.

Definition of inflation: "In economics, inflation is a sustained increase in the general price level of goods and services in an economy over a period of time." How can prices rise faster than inflation when inflation is a measure of that price rise?

Sorry Tal, but your HUGE chart proved nothing relevant to this conversation.

Such an idiotic response showing no understanding. Inflation is measured by observing the prices of a number of commodities and you have what is described as an inflation rate. Not all commodities are in the measure and services figure in the way price rises are observed, so if you go to the supermarket and observe, as I have, that prices are 10% higher on a number of items you buy, the observation is prices are rising higher than the reported inflation rate of 2%. Some prices like fuel stay relatively steady and so have an impact on the inflation rate, but the rate charged by my physiotherapist has risen about 30% in recent years certainly far ahead of the inflation rate

Such an idiotic response showing no understanding. Inflation is measured by observing the prices of a number of commodities and you have what is described as an inflation rate. Not all commodities are in the measure and services figure in the way price rises are observed, so if you go to the supermarket and observe, as I have, that prices are 10% higher on a number of items you buy, the observation is prices are rising higher than the reported inflation rate of 2%. Some prices like fuel stay relatively steady and so have an impact on the inflation rate, but the rate charged by my physiotherapist has risen about 30% in recent years certainly far ahead of the inflation rateIf you want to say that YOUR prices have risen faster than inflation, then that's fine. It's meaningless for the rest of us, but it's OK to do that. However, if you want to say that, from a national perspective, prices have risen faster than inflation for everyone else combined, then you reveal without question that you don't know what inflation means, and if you had been paying even the slightest amount of attention, you would have noticed that that was exactly what we were discussing.

I observe that you don't know what inflation means. The point is that inflation is measured after prices rise, not before, it is not a leading indicator, but a trailing indicator so prices could have risen considerably before it is observed as a rise in the inflation rate. The reality is it is all semantics and averages and there are also local influences, such as prices being higher in some districts than others. It is my observation that prices are higher in remote districts than in cities but the inflation rate is measured in the cities or in one particular city because politicians want a standard by which things are measured to talk about, and the inflation rate is a talking point.

I observe that you don't know what inflation means. The point is that inflation is measured after prices rise,Really? You mean they have to wait until AFTER prices rise to measure the amount of that rise? Isn't that kind of obvious?


it is not a leading indicator,No one, and I mean no one, said it was.


but a trailing indicator so prices could have risen considerably before it is observed as a rise in the inflation rate. The reality is it is all semantics and averages and there are also local influences, such as prices being higher in some districts than othersI really don't know what your point is. The inflation report comes out monthly and is called the "Consumer Price Index". I just don't know how it could be any more plain. Inflation is a measure of the rise in prices. To say that prices are rising faster than inflation is absurd. It's like saying that the air is getting cold faster than the atmosphere. If you want to say that prices could rise rapidly in November and it wouldn't be reflected in the CPI until sometime in December, then that's understandable, but to suggest that you can use that small detail to say that a rise in prices is not the same basic thing as a rise in inflation is just wrong-headed

Really? You mean they have to wait until AFTER prices rise to measure the amount of that rise? Wow. What insight.

not before, No one, and I mean no one, said it was. I really don't know what your point was. The inflation report comes out monthly and is called the "Consumer Price Index". I just don't know how it could be any more plain,

As I said you don't understand and even with a simple explanation you still don't understand

As I said you don't understand and even with a simple explanation you still don't understandYou might look a lot smarter if you would simply admit you blew it. To continue to insist that a rise in inflation is not basically the same thing as a rise in prices, especially when the report is called the "Consumer Price Index" is just silly. And to justify that position by "explaining" that, after all, the cost of seeing your therapist has gone up a lot is even worse.

You might look a lot smarter if you would simply admit you blew it. To continue to insist that a rise in inflation is not basically the same thing as a rise in prices, especially when the report is called the "Consumer Price Index" is just silly. And to justify that position by "explaining" that, after all, the cost of seeing your therapist has gone up a lot is even worse.
Paraclete is correct in his explanation of inflation. Econ 101.

Paraclete is correct in his explanation of inflation. Econ 101.

Thank you WG, jl just likes to argue, as it said; a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and jl has little knowledge on many subjects

If I decided to give it up and agree with the two of you that a rise in inflation is a different matter from a rise in consumer prices, then there would be three of us on the earth who believed such a preposterous idea. As attractive a suggestion as that might sound, I think I'll just pass on it and hang in there with the truth.

There is no truth in economics JL, just manipulation, management and marketing. Depends on who gets to make the rules. It's always been that way despite the algorithms and machinations. Nobody sits at the kitchen table and calculates CPI, they look at their check, look at the bills and get busy.

Like the commercial asks, what's in your wallet?

Thanks for the home spun philosophy Tal, might work in Texas doubt it works in Louisiana

Bet it works everywhere people live paycheck to paycheck and that's most EVERY state. Not every American is a hedge fund manager or banker Clete. Lots of firemen, doctors and Walmart associates.

There is no truth in economics JLReading some of the comments on this board would certainly lead a person to believe that. Alas, it is not correct. And FINALLY we've changed to another page and no longer have to deal with a page a half mile wide.

I guess we all hope for the best but plan for the worst as best we can, JL but it's always been fairly obvious I had to feed, shelter my own family no matter what Washington or anybody else did, or what the business cycle does. I mean makes for good conversation, discussion or debate, but doesn't pay the rent or get the groceries. That's just my reality, and I suspect yours too. I cast my vote and get back to that reality.

Just grateful for some gravy on my mashed potatoes. Ain't you?

Just grateful for some gravy on my mashed potatoes. Ain't you?Absolutely!

It occurs to me that living in America is not for the faint of heart. You just gotta deal with whatever comes up, because stuff just happens, and does it matter if it's intentional or not?

It occurs to me that living in America is not for the faint of heart. You just gotta deal with whatever comes up, because stuff just happens, and does it matter if it's intentional or not?I don't think there is an absolutely easy place to live anywhere, but I do appreciate our freedoms a great deal.

I don't think there is an absolutely easy place to live anywhere, but I do appreciate our freedoms a great deal.

You want an easy place to live, come over here, it has to be easier than what you have there. Some things here are not the issue they appear to be there

for example;
Race relations, not really an issue here.
Gun control, the issue was resolved years ago.
Universal health care, we have it, you don't.
Climate, beautiful one day, fantastic the next, don't let the current situation fool you, it is short lived.
Tornados, very rare.
Blizzards, not often and only in a small section of the country.
balanced budget, yes it really can be done.
Constitution, we have one, I think it is in the cupboard since no one seems to need to refer to it.
Taxation, low and getting lower
I could go on but I dont want to bore you

Paraclete: Why gun control in Australia? What was the catalyst for it? What is the extent of it in Australia?

Paraclete: Why gun control in Australia? What was the catalyst for it? What is the extent of it in Australia?

We had what was called the Port Arthur massacre. Assault weapons were used and so it was decided to recall all such weapons. This had partisan support. There was an amnesty and compensation and the weapons were voluntarily surrendered. There are about 6 million firearms in Australia, so 25% of the population are armed. Such weapons remain outlawed and there have been no such incidents since. The idea that we are unarmed is nonsense

Isn't is true that all privately owned guns in Australia must be licensed by the government and that the owner must be able to demonstrate a "genuine reason" (which does not include self-defence)? Wasn't it far more than simply banning "assault weapons"? That kind of governmental domination is exactly what we are trying to avoid. While the idea that you are unarmed might be nonsense, the idea that you are government dominated relative to guns is not nonsense but sounds about right.

It can likely be argued that we are over-armed, but I think our problem is not centered around gun ownership so much as it's centered around a culture which includes atheism, glorifying violence, and dishonoring the value of human life. You need look no further than abortion to find the seeds of that idea, but many things including the disintegration of the family, movies, television, electronic games, and narcissistic attitudes contribute to it. In other words, I'm not sure it's something the government can fix.

jlisenbe: I absolutely agree with what you are saying....The U.S. has been full of automatic and semiautomatic weapons for a lot longer than the mantra of the "EVIL BLACK RIFLE"....there were M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, Thompson Submachineguns, Browning Automatic Rifles, and others of like nature from the ending of WW1 to way on past WWII....but we didn't have these "MASS SHOOTINGS".... So, the population had access to high rate of fire weapons but were not using them to kill fellow American citizens.....then came the removal of the word "God" from school, the Rowe Vs Wade ruling, and, of course, the forces of pro-dope. The whole "ASSAULT WEAPONS" hysteria is based upon a lie, too: The AR-15 IS NOT AN ASSAULT WEAPON....neither is the SKS.....neither is the civilian version of the AK-47, and many other: These are not "ASSAULT WEAPONS" because they don't fit the ATF definition of Assault Weapons in that to be an Assault Weapon the firearm MUST, primarily, be CAPABLE OF FULL AUTO, NOT SEMIAUTO. The Assault Weapon banner is waved about by the media and like minded politicians as a method to demonize firearms, in general: First they start with these firearms and then they begin to encroach further upon 2nd Amendment Rights: Its all about HOW MUCH POWER THEY CAN EXERTY OVER THE PEOPLE. The real "ASSAULT" here is the attack by the left upon our Constitutional Rights.

I disagree a bit of course and don't think the gun issue should be confused with the social issues espoused by a few. Our gun issue is but the manifestation of the gun lobby which has been a political force for decades that says there can be no common sense rules and regulations on guns and even blind and crazy people have a right to them. One loon with a gun can scare millions and we have had enough of those the last few years as to have everybody scrambling for solutions even biblical ones by all the trauma. Sure we can blame the ills of society on anything, but until we take responsibility for our own inactions then what good does blame do?

Since even most NRA members can agree on some common sense stuff I can only wonder why hasn't that gotten done?

What "common sense stuff" are you proposing, bearing in mind that the vast, vast, vast majority of gun murders are carried out with handguns?

National background checks so we have an accurate picture on who buys a gun, as I have never understood the opposition to it as well as closing the Gun Show loopholes and mail order sales. Another thing that occurs to me is the 3 day background check and straw man purchases. I think the arms services has it right. They don't just give a gun to anyone who hasn't shown they could handle it, so why should civilians?

It would seem that honorable citizens would at least acknowledge the danger of guns in the wrong hands and take reasonable steps to err on the side of safety. What you don't believe that mass psycho murderers exist or something? Maybe not on the scale of CRIMINALS but I assure you they do and have plenty of evidence of it that is irrefutable.

For the record I'm not endorsing the Aussie view if true, of needing a reason to having a gun beyond self defense. I mean if being a hunter, or for sport doesn't work and just a collector isn't good enough then one would wonder what is. Now on the flip side this notion of allowing a gun that sprays hundreds of rounds in a minute should not be registered and restricted is just plain foolish and begging for abuse.

I think you make some good points, but most mass murders are already being carried out by people who are illegally in possession of a firearm or who have mental problems that the feds cannot find out about due to stupid regulations concerning privacy of medical records.

The real problem with guns is in the inner city. Almost half of all gun murders are black individuals killed by another black individual. Sadly, no one seems to care about that.

I'm still pondering what is, to me, the basic question. What happened during the past fifty years for us to get to this place? It is not the possession of firearms. That has always been the case. What has changed so dramatically for us to end up in this place?

NEGLECT, lack of resources and services due to changing economic factors. GENTRIFICATION (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentrification) at it's best. Maybe the better way to look at this is the number of jobs lost for whatever reasons that adversely affect a given population which in this case are not just small towns and rural cities but the traditional blue collar neighborhoods that cannot transition fully to new economic conditions.

Wish I had the answers but I only "know what I know": Growing up rural, on a farm, and in the South (don't know if the South part has much to do with it) I found guns to be something viewed as highly respected and the thought of aiming a gun at someone never entered my mind outside of the idea to defend the family if necessary. I, and everyone I knew, went to school with, started using guns at a very early age....there was no "fear", only respect. I had the advantage of understanding the hands-on differentiation between "life" and "death" and understood that death and forever were intertwined in a way that the could never be set apart....the finality of death is absolute. That is a part of the story that is lacking today in the understanding of many. Do we have more psychos today than we did years ago? Well, I don't know. Maybe the world of today drives people to insanity more often than it used to do so.

Isn't is true that all privately owned guns in Australia must be licensed by the government and that the owner must be able to demonstrate a "genuine reason" (which does not include self-defence)? Wasn't it far more than simply banning "assault weapons"? That kind of governmental domination is exactly what we are trying to avoid. While the idea that you are unarmed might be nonsense, the idea that you are government dominated relative to guns is not nonsense but sounds about right.

It can likely be argued that we are over-armed, but I think our problem is not centered around gun ownership so much as it's centered around a culture which includes atheism, glorifying violence, and dishonoring the value of human life. You need look no further than abortion to find the seeds of that idea, but many things including the disintegration of the family, movies, television, electronic games, and narcissistic attitudes contribute to it. In other words, I'm not sure it's something the government can fix.

Your NRA loves to use Australia as an example of government repression. You can have guns here, you just have to follow some rules but what you can't have is automatic and semi automatic rifles, certain grades of shotgun and so on. You can possess a weapon for a legitimate purpose such as being a member of a rifle club, for feral animal destruction if a land holder, as a security officer and so on. What you cannot do is freely traffic in weapons. You sound like the government is entering and searching homes looking for weapons but the police have no occasion to do this. We don't have the draconian police presence you have. Our police forces are state police forces, not local law enforcement, they are well trained professionals. You also should be aware that we don't have dangerous animals like you do and so hunting is at a different level.

I think you are right about your gun problem being cultural, we don't have rebellion at the heart of our nation, we don't possess this mystique in our thought and culture and so we don't think about aggressively opposing our government. we trust the electoral process

I'm not a member of the NRA so I cannot say what they do. I wasn't trying to be critical of your gun control. It is simply true that your government policies are much more repressive than ours. When you can't own a gun for the purpose of self defense, then it seems to me that the gov has gone too far, but that's what you guys do so it's none of my business. It's just good for the truth to be put on the table for the purposes of comparison.

We trust the electoral policy as well, but bear in mind that Hitler was elected initially. It was easy for him to gain control since private gun ownership was not legal.


NEGLECT, lack of resources and services due to changing economic factors. GENTRIFICATION at it's best. Maybe the better way to look at this is the number of jobs lost for whatever reasons that adversely affect a given population which in this case are not just small towns and rural cities but the traditional blue collar neighborhoods that cannot transition fully to new economic conditions.

It's always someone else's fault. I wonder if a wildly out of control out of wedlock birth rate coupled, of course, with absent fathers might possibly have a little something to do with it? I think this practice of forever wanting to place the blame elsewhere is terribly destructive. People do better when they are challenged to rise above difficulties and better their own lives.

we don't have this need of "self defence", we don't have criminals running around killing people, murder is a rare event here. Yes, there are criminal classes and if they use guns it is most likely to murder each other. You see this is a nonsense, we are not defenceless, we just don't have enemies on the level you seem to think you do. we are not a paranoid society.

I don't think its even fair to compare our two countries that closely Clete, because we are vastly different with different histories and developments, and challenges. Mainly its a bigger competition here, as we have more mouths to feed, and a greater degree of diversity, so an entirely different view of race and religion to deal with. We are a melting pot and you are a pot, attractive enough on your own, but still a pot. Meant that nicely by the way and no insult intended. LOL, we are our own worst enemy here Clete and the danger is from fellow Americans who have their own ideas about how to enjoy the American dream. Even the passive righteous can be an unruly mob when they congregate around a cause, and a bloody nose can become absolute mayhem and murder when they get obsessively emotional for that cause. So let's just give you credit for unique and attractive and am glad it works for you by avoiding the mistakes of older nations.

I'm not a member of the NRA so I can say what they do. I wasn't trying to be critical of your gun control. It is simply true that your government policies are much more repressive than ours. When you can't own a gun for the purpose of self defense, then it seems to me that the gov has gone too far, but that's what you guys do so it's none of my business. It's just good for the truth to be put on the table for the purposes of comparison.

We trust the electoral policy as well, but bear in mind that Hitler was elected initially. It was easy for him to gain control since private gun ownership was not legal.

The Germans were hurting economically, and Hitler was smart enough to exploit it, and consolidate power through some shrewd appointments and rhetorical propaganda. He divided and conquered and export it to the rest of Europe.


It's always someone else's fault. I wonder if a wildly out of control out of wedlock birth rate coupled, of course, with absent fathers might possibly have a little something to do with it? I think this practice of forever wanting to place the blame elsewhere is terribly destructive. People do better when they are challenged to rise above difficulties and better their own lives.

All you say could be true to a small degree, but it's not blaming others to say the rents to high, and the paycheck is too small. The transition from industry to service economy leaves a lot of industrial workers in the cold. Take it from someone who hired into a 20,000 worker operation that shrunk to 3000 when he retired. ALL the towns around the operation shrunk with it. Not just my town but every town with a factory at the heart of its livelihood. Ask them coalminers how that works.

I get you don't like the social changes, but it's the economic ones that destroy towns and states brudder.

we don't have this need of "self defence", we don't have criminals running around killing people, murder is a rare event here. Yes, there are criminal classes and if they use guns it is most likely to murder each other. You see this is a nonsense, we are not defenceless, we just don't have enemies on the level you seem to think you do. we are not a paranoid society.You do realize that no one had suggested those things were the case??? Good thing you're not paranoid.

All you say could be true to a small degree, but it's not blaming others to say the rents to high, and the paycheck is too small. The transition from industry to service economy leaves a lot of industrial workers in the cold. Take it from someone who hired into a 20,000 worker operation that shrunk to 3000 when he retired. ALL the towns around the operation shrunk with it. Not just my town but every town with a factory at the heart of its livelihood. Ask them coalminers how that works.That's all fairly stated. I do understand that it is a problem. I would think you would be applauding Trump for the return of hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs. We gained 10 times more manufacturing jobs in Trump's first 21 months compared to Obama's final 21 months, so can we get some sort of a "Way to go!" for that?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckdevore/2018/10/16/the-trump-manufacturing-jobs-boom-10-times-obamas-over-21-months/#2aa2eabc5850

Even at all of that, we must begin to tell people that single women having children out of wedlock is not a problem "to a small degree", but is an ENORMOUS problem, and we do people a equally enormous disservice by being quiet about these issues.

Even at all of that, we must begin to tell people that single women having children out of wedlock is not a problem "to a small degree", but is an ENORMOUS problem, and we do people a equally enormous disservice by being quiet about these issues.

Single women having children out of wedlock is not a problem, it is idiocy since effective pregnancy control has been available for decades. What can you do when society is rejecting marriage?

Single women having children out of wedlock is not a problem, it is idiocy since effective pregnancy control has been available for decades. What can you do when society is rejecting marriage?Very well said.

And the rejection of marriage has exactly what to do with closing factories and and a living wage, or the tax code?

And the rejection of marriage has exactly what to do with closing factories and and a living wage, or the tax code?

Here we go, change to subject

And the rejection of marriage has exactly what to do with closing factories and and a living wage, or the tax code?Ah. You ignored what I posted about the revival of manufacturing jobs with Trump. You cannot appeal to closing factories. Besides, factories have opened and closed for centuries, but this business of absent fathers is largely a new occurrence. It is likely the most serious social phenomenon in our country, and is particularly acute in the black community. It is an enormous problem.

The most recent numbers, (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/december-2019-jobs-report-labor-department-215614283.html) and the trend since October (https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2019/10/trump-manufacturing-jobs-lost.html), and the poignant reality that we are talking people here not statistics.



Most of the December employment gains came from service industries, extending a trend present throughout 2019 amid broad-based softness in the manufacturing sector.Within the services sector, retail trade added 41,200 jobs in December, more than reversing the decline of 14,100 from November. Education and health-services was another major job gainer, adding 36,000 positions in December. However, this was just half the additions as seen in November.Goods-producing industries lost a net 1,000 jobs in December, after adding 52,000 positions in November. Manufacturing lost 12,000 jobs, versus the gain of 58,000 in November boosted by the conclusion of the GM strike.

Even though I should know better than to follow your links, I did take the first one to find out this: "U.S. economy adds 145,000 jobs in December, unemployment rate holds at 3.5%"

You never did give your opinion about the fact that Trump added TEN TIMES more manufacturing jobs in his first 21 months than Obama did in his last 21 months. If the poignant reality is that we are talking people, then you should be thrilled at that news. Is your bias showing through?


Manufacturing lost 12,000 jobs, versus the gain of 58,000 in November boosted by the conclusion of the GM strike.Net gain of 46,000 in two months. Hooray! Hooray! Hooray!

Beats NOTHING for sure but man be accurate, they expected more but didn't get it and 52,000 strikers goin back to work goosed the numbers.

Speaking of goosed. (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/14/the-stock-market-has-never-been-this-big-relative-to-the-economy-signaling-it-could-be-overvalued.html)

https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/106328452-157857729032620200109_us_equity_market_cap_to_gdp. png?v=1578577471&w=630&h=354High valuations, low earnings growth
Such remarkable gains in 2019 have left U.S. stocks expensive — in the 10th decile, meaning equities have been cheaper at least 90% of the time.
“Such elevated valuations in past periods have weighed on equity returns over the subsequent five years and lowered the odds of positive outcomes,” Goldman Sachs Investment Strategy Group CIO Sharmin Mossavar-Rahmani said in the group’s 2020 outlook. “That the bulk of last year’s returns came from higher valuations, and not growth in earnings, only compounds investors’ concerns.”

I'd still like to know what you think about Trump having TEN TIMES more manufacturing jobs growth in his first 21 months than Obama did in his final 21 months.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckdevore/2018/10/16/the-trump-manufacturing-jobs-boom-10-times-obamas-over-21-months/#676968825850

At a town hall in June 2016, President Obama famously said that some manufacturing jobs “are just not going to come back.” He went on to mock then-candidate Trump by saying he’d need a “magic wand” to make good on this manufacturing job promises.

Hmm. I wonder what room Trump keeps his magic wand in?

I'd still like to know what you think about Trump having TEN TIMES more manufacturing jobs growth in his first 21 months than Obama did in his final 21 months.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckdevore/2018/10/16/the-trump-manufacturing-jobs-boom-10-times-obamas-over-21-months/#676968825850

At a town hall in June 2016, President Obama famously said that some manufacturing jobs “are just not going to come back.” He went on to mock then-candidate Trump by saying he’d need a “magic wand” to make good on this manufacturing job promises.

Hmm. I wonder what room Trump keeps his magic wand in?
Obama was hauling us out of the pit W had dumped us into. Trump then continued riffing off Obama's efforts.

Obama was hauling us out of the pit W had dumped us into. Trump then continued riffing off Obama's efforts.

Every regime blames the previous for adversity and claims credit for prosperity

Obama was hauling us out of the pit W had dumped us into. Trump then continued riffing off Obama's efforts.That tired excuse won't work. We are talking about the final 21 months of Obama's eight years compared to the first 21 months of Trump's admin, and an increase of 1,000%. The Obama apologists just don't want to accept the truth that Trump has done much better in that regard than Obama did.

I have never had a problem admitting the dufus inherited a much better economy than Obama did, a thousand times better, giving the dufus a solid foundation to build on for sure. Repub or dem whoever won the presidency would have benefitted even HC, but the dufus won and he benefits. That's simple enough to understand and so far so good for some that are in the right place to also benefit.

What's also simple to understand is while many benefit there is little effort to benefit those that weren't in the right place who cannot benefit with the rest of the country or helped through this transition from a recession to a great economy. Maybe it's taking longer to trickle down to the least, so when do you think that will happen?

And again. "That tired excuse won't work. We are talking about the final 21 months of Obama's eight years compared to the first 21 months of Trump's admin, and an increase of 1,000%. The Obama apologists just don't want to accept the truth that Trump has done much better in that regard than Obama did."

Nobody has to apologize for Obama doing his job well enough that the dufus didn't have to spend his first term fixing stuff. (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-creates-145000-new-jobs-in-december-2020-01-10) Where did you get that from? Unfortunately the dufus has done more than just juice a healthy economy, and he is being impeached for it.

Impeachment envy

I don't know what the controversy is all about in the comparison of Obama to Trump in the arena of jobs, economy, and the general mood of workers: I work with Blue Collar workers every day in manufacturing and there is a night and day difference in their moods, outlooks, and expressions about their own economic positions in the country....what I am getting at is that there is a very distinct change in the perceptions and attitudes of workers now as compared to when Obama was in Office....Trump gave the work force a big morale boost compared to Obama when workers saw no sunshine/light at the end of the tunnel.

Impeachment envy

He was a crook before he got elected and still does some crooked stuff so he gets impeached so please explain impeachment envy and how it applies.

I don't know what the controversy is all about in the comparison of Obama to Trump in the arena of jobs, economy, and the general mood of workers: I work with Blue Collar workers every day in manufacturing and there is a night and day difference in their moods, outlooks, and expressions about their own economic positions in the country....what I am getting at is that there is a very distinct change in the perceptions and attitudes of workers now as compared to when Obama was in Office....Trump gave the work force a big morale boost compared to Obama when workers saw no sunshine/light at the end of the tunnel.

LOL, Vac! Obama spent two terms clearing out the dirt of despair so of course there is light at the end of the tunnel. Hope the dufus keeps it going, but we both know this good business cycle can't last forever. Never has, never does. What makes you think the dufus can keep the lights on forever?

Talaniman: I'll Grant you that the Bushes (both the H and the W) created "target rich environments" in the economies....but what I want you to know if that the Obama years were viewed dimly by those in the workforce...and we are talking 100% UNION HOURLY WORKERS, too, not white collar employees. Obama's rhetoric was always dismal and evoked feeling that there was no hope, that America's best days were long gone: Trump has projected an entirely different feeling amongst these same workers. I used to see a lot pro-Democrat stickers on lunch buckets and tool carts....I don't see those types of stickers any more: I see MAGA and Trump 2020 stickers now. You can call it a sales job or just a good job at propaganda but the Trump has changed the way these Union workers are viewing the future of the nation: Its just not politics as usual any more.

Interesting perception as mine has been a bit different but I admit I haven't worked in a union shop in decades and back then we had a bigger stronger union to be sure. Can't say I was working during the Obama presidency either, so maybe my view is a bit defferent and outdated, so maybe I'm just not qualified to say anything about peoples attitudes as you are. I know my peeps in SC and NC were inspired and hopeful during Obama's presidency, where they were more resigned to the conditions before him depending on the economy, but maybe it is just a matter of perspective, I don't know.

I would imagine though that most anyone with a good job is optimistic more so than those without, and presidents do get the credit whether that's right or wrong. I know the MAGA crowd is totally on top of the world right now where they were not before. Obviously though a good economy papers over a lot of other stuff that can be called into question.

Talaniman: Economies are very much inclined to be cyclical....Riding the crest of the wave for as long as it takes us is probably the best that we can do. One INDEX of the populations confidence, and I refer to workers in my manufacturing sector, is the rate of SAVING they are contributing as monthly percentile of their paycheck: Right now these contributions to individual savings plans are at all time highs.

He was a crook before he got elected and still does some crooked stuff so he gets impeached so please explain impeachment envy and how it applies.

envy that can only be assuaged by impeachment, this is very evident now the demonrats have inserted a clause that would bar Trump from reelection

when I started this thread, oh so long ago, it was talking about what is happening in France, the revolt of the masses against government led reform, or perhaps revolt about reform of social security, which, of course, is counter culture to some. However, you may care to note the struggle and protest continues, which demonstrates that no social welfare initiative can ever be repealed. However, it is interesting to note that this discussion is of no interest to those who don't have such a system and particularly not to those who don't want such a system.

There are other things in the world than Trump, the world will not rise or fall dependent upon the impeachment of Trump. There I have said it, I will forever be branded a traitor

Talaniman: Economies are very much inclined to be cyclical....Riding the crest of the wave for as long as it takes us is probably the best that we can do. One INDEX of the populations confidence, and I refer to workers in my manufacturing sector, is the rate of SAVING they are contributing as monthly percentile of their paycheck: Right now these contributions to individual savings plans are at all time highs.

I think hours worked plays the biggest factor as I remember adding more to that 401K when the overtime was plentiful and less when hours were reduced, but not every sector has that option, nor a good pension to look forward to, so confidence or common sense for the opportunity, or a good union or just luck of the right job?

envy that can only be assuaged by impeachment, this is very evident now the demonrats have inserted a clause that would bar Trump from reelection

I discount the envy opinion Clete because if anybody deserves closer scrutiny and accountability it's for sure the dufus who is a poster boy for bad behavior and attitude, and criminality...for as far back as I can remember. It's not envy by any means it's more like self defense and we ain't talking jaywalking, nor a one time event.


when I started this thread, oh so long ago, it was talking about what is happening in France, the revolt of the masses against government led reform, or perhaps revolt about reform of social security, which, of course, is counter culture to some. However, you may care to note the struggle and protest continues, which demonstrates that no social welfare initiative can ever be repealed. However, it is interesting to note that this discussion is of no interest to those who don't have such a system and particularly not to those who don't want such a system.

There are other things in the world than Trump, the world will not rise or fall dependent upon the impeachment of Trump. There I have said it, I will forever be branded a traitor

I get you have bigger fish to fry, but what do you expect from your American friends where the dufus is a hot topic.

I discount the envy opinion Clete because if anybody deserves closer scrutiny and accountability it's for sure the dufus who is a poster boy for bad behavior and attitude, and criminality...for as far back as I can remember. It's not envy by any means it's more like self defense and we ain't talking jaywalking, nor a one time event.



Maybe, Tal you know I don't like Dump's attitude, I don't like his delivery, he typifies everything I find distasteful about your nation, but he was elected to do exactly what he has done despite a verement opposition



I get you have bigger fish to fry, but what do you expect from your American friends where the dufus is a hot topic.

He is only a hot topic because he is loud mouthed and grabs attention

You could be right Clete the wingers wanted a bomb thrower to shake things up and he has done that. They love it even if he is screwing them too, and crossed every line ever drawn. He has effectively taken full control of the repub party and they dare not complain. No dufus no repubs, and they know it.

Talaniman: I have come almost full-circle on Unions....as a young, spunky newbie right out of the university, I really thought that the Unions were bad all the way around...that they were controlled by radical leftists, and that THEY were the reason for the decline of manufacturing in the U.S. Now, some or all of those accusations may have had some root in reality SOMEWHERE in the history of Unions in the U.S.....but I have come to realize that those early thoughts of mine were not entirely legitimate and MOSTLY erroneous altogether. The Unions I have worked with over the past 30 years have proven to me that their hearts, minds, and sweat are in the right place and I have found them to be, almost, totally, very patriotic! I stand should to shoulder with them and, by and large, they have never let me down. That doesn't mean I agree or support them on every single item, particularly how they circle the wagons to "protect" their fellow "brothers" that should be reprimanded severely but that is usually a public display because, in private, they will tend to tell you that a certain worker was at fault but their guidelines called for his support, regardless: Like all institutions, it can't all be perfect.

I'm a union guy, but have peeps who are management and union members alike. You're right thouugh, no institution is close to perfect.