Polling shows it to be as much as a third of the black vote. If he can go from 8% to 30%, he will win easily, and it will be an alarm bell for the dems to see black voters fleeing from their addiction to liberal ideals. It is bound to happen sooner or later.

Dream on but don't bet the farm on black voters helping the dufus significantly more than they have.

Dream on but don't bet the farm on black voters helping the dufus significantly more than they have

I think black voters are a lot smarter than you give them credit. Many of them know what an amazing economy we are presently enjoying and who is responsible for much of it.

I think black voters are a lot smarter than you give them credit. Many of them know what an amazing economy we are presently enjoying and who is responsible for much of it.
And they don't see women and POC in his cabinet and see 95% whites at his rallies. (What "amazing economy"?)

And they don't see women and POC in his cabinet and see 95% whites at his rallies. (What "amazing economy"?)

Please, please tell me your comment about the economy was a joke.

I guess you just don't understand sarcasm

Please, please tell me your comment about the economy was a joke.
Care for a kool-aid refill?

So you admit it was a joke. Thank goodness. I was worried about you.

I think black voters are a lot smarter than you give them credit. Many of them know what an amazing economy we are presently enjoying and who is responsible for much of it.

Yup, you are correct there and while on paper the economy is healthy, the amazing part is not shared by as many as you think, and most people are smart enough to know that the dufus is a small part of that health. Just consider the huge number of Americans not invested in the stock market and go from there. Unfortunately for you, half the country is wondering when that amazing economy trickles down enough to cover rising cost of goods services and just plain living.

Specifically black voters are a whole lot smarter than you think they are for sure and have seen this movie before, and know a lying cheating white man when we see it that is a racist to boot. Not just blacks, but Latinos and females as well. You can read and spout all the propaganda you want to about the glory of the dufus, that doesn't change the FACT half the country wants him investigated, impeached, and removed from office.

For all the right wing noise that process has already started.

You guys are a lost cause

Talaniman: "The process" of removing Trump from office require a continuum of traction: The "chain" pulling this garage bin of accusations must not have any weak links....and disconnects in train require it to start over, and that is the problem: No momentum for Trump's removal will ever be enough....why? Because the SENATE TRIAL knocks the whole process off the rails. TRUMP TRAIN will keep on chugging along.

A Senate trial could very well end up as a huge embarrassment for the dems.

jlisenbe: It will be a huge problem for the left: Demos are unprepared and unequipped for such a fact-filled/fact-based venture: THIS AIN'T THE SCHIFF SHOW NO MORE! His show got Low Ratings: The American people hated it and turned against it. The NEW SHOW will have high ratings as the very fabric of the left's accusations will be torn apart, never to be mended again! The whole affair will boost Trump and will suck all of the air out of the room for any of Demo POTUS candidates. Looks like Repubs will take the House back, too: Repubs are spineless jello balls but they look like they may be growing something back there....they have a long ways to go, though.

A Senate trial could very well end up as a huge embarrassment for the dems.

Or it could go against the dufus and repubs as well.


jlisenbe: It will be a huge problem for the left: Demos are unprepared and unequipped for such a fact-filled/fact-based venture: THIS AIN'T THE SCHIFF SHOW NO MORE! His show got Low Ratings: The American people hated it and turned against it. The NEW SHOW will have high ratings as the very fabric of the left's accusations will be torn apart, never to be mended again! The whole affair will boost Trump and will suck all of the air out of the room for any of Demo POTUS candidates. Looks like Repubs will take the House back, too: Repubs are spineless jello balls but they look like they may be growing something back there....they have a long ways to go, though.

I've seen reports the hearings gained as much audience share as Monday Night Football, but who knows since half the country is in favor of investigate impeach and remove and if senate repubs grow a pair, they may get what they want. We could know in a week or so what the charges are so place your bets folks.

Talaniman: Not to make light of such a grave matter....but: I don't bet...however, does anyone want to wager that Vegas has ODDS ON IMPEACHMENT or, possibly, ODDS ON TRUMP'S REMOVAL FROM OFFICE or TRUMP'S WINNING THE 2020 POTUS ELECTION? My guess is that they do and there are betting lines on it.

Funny you should say it that way. (https://www.thewrap.com/donald-trumps-las-vegas-odds-impeachment/) We are going from the inquiry phase to the prosecutorial phase, while dufusites whine about the process, witnesses, and prosecutors not to the issues of the LAW! Of course the obligatory conspiracy theory is front and center from Vlad's mouth to the GOP senators. (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/trump-impeachment-inquiry/gop-senator-i-don-t-know-if-ukraine-or-russia-n1090246)

Some defense eh?

Lack of evidence. Very simple. "I heard someone say that he heard that other guy tell his friend that Trump might have mentioned a quid pro quo," doesn't get you very far.

Well JL, we could just wait for the charges and evidence to be presented.

Well JL, we could just wait for the charges and evidence to be presented.

It seems to me we have an abundance of charges and a paucity of evidence, but as you say, we will just have to wait and see.

In the meantime the dufus declines to participate in inpeachment inquiry. (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-12-01/nadler-s-deadline-to-trump-passes-without-a-public-response) So much for exercising his rights.

In the meantime the dufus declines to participate in inpeachment inquiry. (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-12-01/nadler-s-deadline-to-trump-passes-without-a-public-response) So much for exercising his rights.

well, of course, he should exercise his rights and not attend the demonrat kangaroo court. the hearing lasted 10 "witnesses"

BACK TO THE OP

Greta, the deluded child who is now the front person for climate debate, is making her way by sail boat to the climate conference and will arrive late. Couldn't have much to contribute, perhaps. It appears when interviewed recently and asked what she proposed as a solution she had nothing to contribute and suggested the question should be answered by others. Another indication of the stupidity of the climate change debate

Well Clete we complain about fires and storms and such things but do nothing so really who cares? Seems the kids do!

Paraclete & Talaniman: I think she acts strange because she has Tourette's Syndrome of something damn near like it.

Paraclete & Talaniman: I think she acts strange because she has Tourette's Syndrome of something damn near like it.
Tourette's? Huh? Do you know the signs of Tourette's?

She's autistic. And is a wonderful example of someone who has overcome some of the "negative" characteristics of autism.

Tourette's? Huh? Do you know the signs of Tourette's?

She's autistic. And is a wonderful example of someone who has overcome some of the "negative" characteristics of autism.

No, the negative aspects are still there, the anger, and the inability to see both sides of the argument, she has no respect for anyone who doesn't share her view, and she is a stooge for Soros. Greta doesn't understand you don't get what you want by failing to negotiate. I understand, my grandson is autistic and difficult to see that others have rights and opinions too. Greta was right when she said she should be in school


Well Clete we complain about fires and storms and such things but do nothing so really who cares? Seems the kids do!

Tal, they don't care they are manipulated by teachers and leftists who only seek political advantage. you would think that if answers were there we would have found them by now, but the answers are too damn unpalatable. One solution turn off all the unnecessary illumination in cities

Didn't you just say you booted the lefties, so do something before they get back iin power, besides blaming a kid for being an angry stooge of left wing politics. I'd be mad to if you called me a left wing stooge then do nothing but whine about the weather, while the country burns and the storms keep a coming.

Things seem to have gotten worse since you righties got the power. It has here any way.

Didn't you just say you booted the lefties, so do something before they get back iin power, besides blaming a kid for being an angry stooge of left wing politics. I'd be mad to if you called me a left wing stooge then do nothing but whine about the weather, while the country burns and the storms keep a coming.

Things seem to have gotten worse since you righties got the power. It has here any way.

No, Things are great here, except for nature which is doing its thing as it has for thousands of years, There is a reason why plants here propagate by fire and it isn't aborigines. There is also a reason why this is the dryest continent and reducing CO2 isn't going to change that, so Greta,and Tal, have you been told today? consider yourself told

By the way Tal, my son is a little close to this one so I have a right to be concerned
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-03/nsw-bushfire-emergency-warnings/11762260

I got ya Clete, can't say as I blame you, but man has to adapt to the conditioons or get extincted. You're lucky if you have a small carbon footprint. Some regions and people do not. There is nothing fouler than living near something man builds. Can't blame kids for being mad about it either. Back in the day we use to be those kids and we were mad too.

Let's throw away trash in bins, not on the ground or in waterways. And pick up any trash you see lying around.

49260

W.G.: In the U.S., the scene in the picture you've shown here should be a rarity. At some point, a balance must be considered between what you see here and carbon emissions: Much of what you see can be burned for fuel by BOILERS.

Wondergirl, such scenes are found in the third world, not where I live, we actively discourage waste.

Vac; Not sure that burning in boilers is a great idea, it creates much particulate pollution unless active abatement measures are taken, in places where such dumps exist these measures don't exist

W.G.: In the U.S., the scene in the picture you've shown here should be a rarity. At some point, a balance must be considered between what you see here and carbon emissions: Much of what you see can be burned for fuel by BOILERS.
That scene was in the Eastern Hemisphere, north of Australia.

I have no doubt of that

Reason behind climate change is human's stupidity.

Reason behind climate change is human's stupidity.

Stupidity in what way?

Reason behind climate change is human's stupidity.

yes the stupidity of thinking Humans can control the climate

Paraclete: YOU NAILED IT!

Surviving whatever Mother Nature is up to is a matter of adaptability.

Yes Tal, and humans have been adapting, and will continue to adapt

Don't really have much choice.

This is true, however some think the effects can be stopped and reversed by limiting CO2 emissions, this is stupidity and we are wasting resources when we should be adapting. New cities should be built away from the coast, and populations moved before a crisis arises, new water storages should be built and we should be finding ways to grow crops vertically using buildings as well as harvesting storm water. Cities like New Orleans should be abandoned and rebuilt inland.

I do understand this problem, there are many coastal places which will become inaccessable

The CLIMATE CHANGE BUNCH do not practice science: CLIMATE CHANGE is a religion.

Meanwhile, to demonstrate how much CLIMATE CHANGE rhetoric is designed to impugn the U.S., check out the facts: Red China, by its little old communist self, has bee identified as spewing out 28% of the worlds "Carbon Emissions"....the U.S. only chips-in 14% of the world's total carbon emissions.....If you listen to the left, they would have you think it the Carbon Emissions #'s were reverse and that the U.S. was responsible for most of the world's Carbon Emissions.

You could say the same about those right wing drill baby drill fanatics, who have no clue about cleaning up the messes they make and screw clean water land and air. Haven't had good shrimps since the gulf spill but who cares? Look the numbers are the numbers and when we turned our backs as leaders by example the numbers get worse, but who cares, right?

Talaniman: No, it just means we get REAL SERIOUS WITH THOSE THAT DRILL: IF YOU SPILL, THERE WILL BE CONSEQUENCES. If your business is pumping oil out of the ground or, in this case, from below the Gulf, and you want to keep pumping that oil, you better get your act together on the environmental side: that's the message that needs to get out there....need to stop pussyfooting around with the producers and talk to them in a language they understand, which is $$$s in fines for screwing up. Yes, oil handling can be a problem but it doesn't HAVE to be....Nuclear can definitely be a problem but it is relatively clean, minus a few episodes over the last 50 years or so, and oil drilling needs that same intensity of focus to make it more in line with our expectations: We don't need to throw the baby out with the bath water. It behooves the U.S. to wean itself COMPLETELY from the sandbox of pain called the Middle East: We need to position ourselves where we can tell the M.E. to go eat their sand, we don't need their oil.....and the thought of the U.S. staying around the M.E. JUST TO PROTECT EUROPE'S OIL IS DISGUSTING: LET THE EUROPEANS GET OFF THE DIME AND PROTECT THEIR OWN INTERESTS! Personally, I think many in the U.S. are still frightened by the specter of Germany rearming itself to the teeth and going abroad....you'll never hear this but I think the thought is in the back of many minds.

Be darned if I don't mostly agree with you Vac! I think drillers should be wholly responsible for clean ups and safety considerations which includes power companies being responsible for waste management, and the occasional pollution from spills and contamination of land, air, and water, along with the very real health risks to humans because of it.

Where we diverge however is acknowledging how the rest of the world, mostly ALLIES can meet their energy demands effectively which is mostly through the ME, and Russia, who are already armed, and arming as we speak. I worry less about Germany as a military threat than as being leveraged to comply with making a deal with Russia and the Saudis or any other energy producer for that matter simply to meet their energy needs. It's one thing for us to be energy independent, but we cannot ignore that our allies are not.

Right now nuclear is a viable solution for them but until they are at that point, they need oil! An affordable and reliable supply of it. That's just the reality of the world.

The CLIMATE CHANGE BUNCH do not practice science: CLIMATE CHANGE is a religion.

Meanwhile, to demonstrate how much CLIMATE CHANGE rhetoric is designed to impugn the U.S., check out the facts: Red China, by its little old communist self, has bee identified as spewing out 28% of the worlds "Carbon Emissions"....the U.S. only chips-in 14% of the world's total carbon emissions.....If you listen to the left, they would have you think it the Carbon Emissions #'s were reverse and that the U.S. was responsible for most of the world's Carbon Emissions.

You have a poor memory there was a time when the US was the largest emitter, then they exported their industries to China along with the condemnation, but the damage the US did is still in the atmosphere, that is if you believe climate science which is akin to Scientology. The US still buys goods from China so don't point the finger. You have a lot of renewables but in twenty years you will have to renew them which is very expensive.




Right now nuclear is a viable solution for them but until they are at that point, they need oil! An affordable and reliable supply of it. That's just the reality of the world.

Tal what we need now is new technology, coal is old, oil is old, solar is old, wind is old, but if we were to harness the power of water

... some think the effects can be stopped and reversed by limiting CO2 emissions, this is stupidity....... New cities should be built away from the coast, and populations moved before a crisis arises,........ Cities like New Orleans should be abandoned and rebuilt inland.

Yeah, move New York City a few miles inland. That should be a simple project.

Talk about stupidity!


I do understand this problem

No you don't, you're clueless.

Still waiting on that Matthew 25 response. Been a while.


Yeah, move New York City a few miles inland. That should be a simple project.

I kind of questioned that one myself. Coastal cities are there for a reason. New York City would not be NYC without its port facilities. Moving New Orleans is not going to happen. Besides, we shouldn't move anything over a half-inch rise in sea levels.

Tal what we need now is new technology, coal is old, oil is old, solar is old, wind is old, but if we were to harness the power of water

That's great except for where there is a great lack of water, like the vast Australian wilderness for example. Even you guys haven't solved that one yet.

That's great except for where there is a great lack of water, like the vast Australian wilderness for example. Even you guys haven't solved that one yet.

I kind of questioned that one myself. I assume he is talking about harnessing the energy of waves and tides, but I don't know of anywhere that is happening, and I would think it is going to be really difficult and expensive. Other than nuclear, I don't see anything on the horizon that can take the place of fossil fuels.

I think scrubber and capture technology is entirely viable if you can get past the initial investment and loss of some profits for a short while. Heck the taxpaying consumers tout the expenses any way you cut it. None of us could afford lights if our government didn't subsidize these companies any way.

None of us could afford lights if our government didn't subsidize these companies any way.

Is that the same gov that is about 22 tril in debt and still spending money like it grows on trees?

Yes it is.

I kind of questioned that one myself. I assume he is talking about harnessing the energy of waves and tides, but I don't know of anywhere that is happening, and I would think it is going to be really difficult and expensive. Other than nuclear, I don't see anything on the horizon that can take the place of fossil fuels.

No I'm talking about hydrolysis, by the way there are such projects as you speak of in Australia

Are we confusing water based energy systems with the breaking down of organic matter?

Are we confusing water based energy systems with the breaking down of organic matter?

There is a lot of confusion here Tal, no less than in the general community regarding such matters, Hydrolysis breaks down water into its constituent elements and the fuel produces water as a result of combustion thus it is clean and will be the basis of a hydrogen fuel system once we get the fossil fuel multinationals out of the way. Water is an unlimited resource

Back to the OP

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-06/nsw-bushfire-rfs-emergency-friday-live-blog/11773726 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-06/nsw-bushfire-rfs-emergency-friday-live-blog/11773726)

Where I live the state is burning; the firefronts encompass thousands of kilometres, fortunately casualities are low but they do happen, thousands of buildings have been lost, not to mention destruction of wildlife, animals, forest and lives. It does not stop and it will not stop whileever the drought persists. There are many who want to have a debate on climate change, when they should be on the fire line fighting the fires or raising money for the victims. No amount of debate and finger pointing will make any difference

No I'm talking about hydrolysis, by the way there are such projects as you speak of in Australia.

Hydrolysis? I think you mean Electrolysis. As I understand it, an electric current is passed through water releasing hydrogen and oxygen. The hydrogen can be burned as a fuel and the product of combustion is simply water. The problem is that the current has to be produced somewhere. Again, as I understand it, the thinking is that solar and wind could produce the electrical power. Cloudy days, nights and windless days are no problem since the production does not have to be constant. That might turn out to be do-able but it's a long ways off. The capital expense would be absolutely enormous. All of the current storage and distribution networks would become obsolete and have to be replaced. Every power generating station would have to be completely retooled. I would imagine you are talking about multiple trillions of dollars. And then there is the question of the expense of this new fuel.

There is a lot of confusion here Tal, no less than in the general community regarding such matters, Hydrolysis breaks down water into its constituent elements and the fuel produces water as a result of combustion thus it is clean and will be the basis of a hydrogen fuel system once we get the fossil fuel multinationals out of the way. Water is an unlimited resource

Please provide a link for clarity Clete as all I find was a process to break down sludge in Australia.


Back to the OP

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-06/nsw-bushfire-rfs-emergency-friday-live-blog/11773726

Where I live the state is burning; the firefronts encompass thousands of kilometres, fortunately casualities are low but they do happen, thousands of buildings have been lost, not to mention destruction of wildlife, animals, forest and lives. It does not stop and it will not stop whileever the drought persists. There are many who want to have a debate on climate change, when they should be on the fire line fighting the fires or raising money for the victims. No amount of debate and finger pointing will make any difference

I would imagine that those that can't help with the fires can still debate. That's how it usually works in most places.

Please provide a link for clarity Clete as all I find was a process to break down sludge in Australia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_power_in_Australia

We have also developed a process to turn plastic back into oil




I would imagine that those that can't help with the fires can still debate. That's how it usually works in most places.

Debate is useless, no amount of talk can change the facts

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_power_in_Australia

We have also developed a process to turn plastic back into oil

Thanks Clete, we also have a number of WAVE energy projects going on.


Debate is useless, no amount of talk can change the facts

You have to keep debating the FACTS to find a solution don't you?

More stupidity today as journalists around the world and particularly the slimes say that Australia is to blame for the bush fires and poor air quality, absolutely no understanding that this is a weather event caused by the Collision of three weather systems which have produced hot dry conditions and strong winds resulting in drought and fires. I hate this leftist agenda which fawns after global scientists and forgets that the CO2 problem, if it is a problem, originated in the northern hemisphere, yes, those same critics are responsible for our problems

Come on now Clete, it's a waste of time to blame Mother Nature for doing what MN does. You had to see this coming and may as well admit you did nothing about it, or were very effective making the adjustments to deal with it. The good news is you are hardly alone being helpless and powerless. Join the rest of us stupid humans being swept away burned and suffocated by our own inability to figure it out.

Come on now Clete, it's a waste of time to blame Mother Nature for doing what MN does. You had to see this coming and may as well admit you did nothing about it, or were very effective making the adjustments to deal with it. The good news is you are hardly alone being helpless and powerless. Join the rest of us stupid humans being swept away burned and suffocated by our own inability to figure it out.

Tal go peddle your leftist B/S somewhere else. there is nothing we could have done to prevent this. I have been saying for a long time climate change has been happening for thousands of years. Even NASA will tell you that our orbit and the sun are responsible, but even if they shouted it you would not listen, no that information is suppressed and I wonder by who.

For the benefit of the ill informed there are three weather systems that control the circumstances here;

El Nino, the Indian Ocean Dipole and the Southern Oscillation and all three are in a phase which limits rain, brings high temperatures and strong winds, this will persist for some months to come and no amount of renewables and wishful thinking will do anything about it. Prayer might

I would agree that increasing the CO2 content of the atmosphere is not a good idea, but how much that has effected climate is still a debate in progress. Getting off of fossil fuels is going to be a challenge. The dem party's ridiculous "Green New Deal" is a laugher, but so is doing nothing. I have a feeling that the productive power of free enterprise will solve it if we can keep the government out of the way long enough.

Even NASA will tell you that our orbit and the sun are responsible,

Nonsense. Source: far right fringe website. NASA has said no such thing.

Tal go peddle your leftist B/S somewhere else. there is nothing we could have done to prevent this. I have been saying for a long time climate change has been happening for thousands of years. Even NASA will tell you that our orbit and the sun are responsible, but even if they shouted it you would not listen, no that information is suppressed and I wonder by who.

For the benefit of the ill informed there are three weather systems that control the circumstances here;

El Nino, the Indian Ocean Dipole and the Southern Oscillation and all three are in a phase which limits rain, brings high temperatures and strong winds, this will persist for some months to come and no amount of renewables and wishful thinking will do anything about it. Prayer might

Praying for more firefighters and equipment?

Praying for rain and in particular for the southern oscillation to retreat, on the equipment front we lost a helicopter yesterday which grounded all firefighting aircraft for safety checks. No amount of men and equipment can face the intensity of what is happening here

Well it's your country so if you just want to let it burn I guess you have that right. Just saying it's an unfortunate and dangerous situation and plenty challenging but you may as well get your backs into it and do the best you can. Pray for strength and keep shoveling and load up on more eqiopment.

Well it's your country so if you just want to let it burn I guess you have that right. Just saying it's an unfortunate and dangerous situation and plenty challenging but you may as well get your backs into it and do the best you can. Pray for strength and keep shoveling and load up on more equipment.

You can't be serious, but even if we had no emissions it wouldn't change anything because the problem is in the Northern Hemisphere, that is if you are a true believer, anyway visibility down to 300 metres this morning and the smell of smoke in the air and we are at least 100 km from the main fires, Saw an interesting study that demonstrates we are in the trough of a long term cycle of cold temperatures due to solar oscillation so keep the fires burning, you need them

Stopping whatever is going on with weather system and weather cycles is a fool's folly. The earth will warm and cool as it so chooses or as system effects drive it, regardless of what WE do....WE have little to no impact but our arrogance makes us thing that we can make a difference.....that gives us "comfort" that we are DOING SOMETHING POSITIVE: its all a play on our frailties and emotions..the "FEEL GOOD" effect...but the one's who FEEL the best are that bastard that almost became POTUS and his ilk: THEY FEEL GOOD BECAUSE THEY ARE BILLIONAIRES BASED OFF PSUEDO SCIENCE!

US/WE/MANKIND effecting weather or whether the earth warms or cools is akin to A PISS ANT PISSING ON A FOREST FIRE!

Mother Nature has probably wiped mankind off the face of the Earth multiple times and we just keep starting all over.

no evidence of that

Stopping whatever is going on with weather system and weather cycles is a fool's folly. The earth will warm and cool as it so chooses or as system effects drive it, regardless of what WE do....WE have little to no impact
Fouling our waterways doesn't make an impact? Allowing plastic to dominate our everyday life and end up as visible and invisible waste on land and in the sea doesn't make an impact? Burning down the Amazon and other forests doesn't make an impact? "And I brought you into a plentiful land to enjoy its fruits and its good things. But when you came in, you defiled my land and made my heritage an abomination." Jer. 2:7

Fouling our waterways doesn't make an impact? Allowing plastic to dominate our everyday life and end up as visible and invisible waste on land and in the sea doesn't make an impact? Burning down the Amazon and other forests doesn't make an impact?

Those things are significant, but not nearly as significant as people try to make them out to be. For instance, there is actually more forested area in North America now than a hundred years ago, so the burning of forests must not be very widespread.

Try telling that to the people whose water and land have been fouled by industries how insignificant their plight is. Let me know what they tell you.


no evidence of that

No evidence it didn't happen either while we discover old ancient ruins tens of thousand of years old of ancient peoples, beneath the sands and oceans and in the jungles of undeveloped lands.

Try telling that to the people whose water and land have been fouled by industries how insignificant their plight is. Let me know what they tell you.

In our country if your land has been "fouled by industries" you can take them to court and force them to clean it up. It has happened many times.


No evidence it didn't happen either while we discover old ancient ruins tens of thousand of years old of ancient peoples, beneath the sands and oceans and in the jungles of undeveloped lands.

I don't think there have been any discoveries of ancient ruins that are "tens of thousands" of years old. Thousands of years old, but not tens of thousands of years. If you know of any, then post it here.

Gladly as there are many throught the world. (https://www.theepochtimes.com/5-mysterious-ruins-that-predate-known-civilization_358139.html)

Did you bother yourself to read that article? If you did, you know that those sites are all hotly debated as to whether or not, in some cases, they were even man made, and the dating of the sites was in question. Besides, none of your examples were dated at "tens of thousands" of years old, so your link does not make your case at all. So rather than "many throughout the world", there are currently "zero throughout the world".

I'll stick with what I post and you can be the skeptic all you want too, since you usually are when things don't line up to your view of things. How about this one for your closed minded perusal. (https://inhabitat.com/researchers-discover-14000-year-old-canadian-village-one-of-north-americas-oldest/)

What are you one of those the Earth is 6,000 years old fanatics?

Talaniman: A lot of times, the people of an area or town DON'T EVEN KNOW that they are drinking polluted water until some do-gooder tells them! If it was that bad, they would know from the taste! Ever taste water in Savannah, Ga. or Brunswick, Ga. or Jacksonville, Fla.? Tastes like sh&$! You think its fouled but its only the heavy calcium load and Sulphur depositions....smells like a goats arse! But fine to drink, other than helping you to develop kidney stones.

Yes I'm sure the people in places like Flint Mi. could have used a do gooder sooner. Many more examples of cancer and disease have emerged well before a do gooder did.

I'll stick with what I post and you can be the skeptic all you want too, since you usually are when things don't line up to your view of things. How about this one for your closed minded perusal.

If you had read the article, you would know that I am not the skeptic. The article itself said that, in the case of four of the five supposed sites, there was dispute over their authenticity or even if the site was man-made or not. Now that was YOUR article that said that, so I'm sticking with your link that it clearly seems you did not read.


What are you one of those the Earth is 6,000 years old fanatics?

That might turn out to be the case, but I'm not in that camp. I am, however, in the camp of those who believe in actually reading what they post. Even your second article was about a site "estimated" to be 14,000 years old. Even if that is true, it does not fit the definition of "tens of thousands" of years old, so you have come up with zilch to support your claim. There is no point in getting mad at me about it. It was not my claim but yours.

Relax dude, I ain't mad at ya, or surprised at your closed minded dismissiveness, and if you don't want to acknowledge or discuss the possibilities that's cool with me. Wouldn't be the first time and surely won't be the last.

Relax dude, I ain't mad at ya, or surprised at your closed minded dismissiveness, and if you don't want to acknowledge or discuss the possibilities that's cool with me. Wouldn't be the first time and surely won't be the last.

Well, another smokey morning on the mountain, we will be calling this old smokey soon, no Panorama today, but I think you need to relax, dude, smell the roses and resign yourself to the inevitable. You have at least another year of your torment. I know my problems pale into insignificant in the face of the momentous challenge you face, after all, you are faced with that fierce dragon, Trump, who roars and breathes fire and challenges the very existence of something, and not a dragon slayer in sight

your closed minded dismissiveness, and if you don't want to acknowledge or discuss the possibilities that's cool with me. Wouldn't be the first time and surely won't be the last.

I would be glad to discuss the "possibilities" with you as soon as you come up with something to discuss. My "dismissiveness", as I showed you, comes from the content of your own two articles which you clearly did not bother to read. Incredible.

I would be glad to discuss the "possibilities" with you as soon as you come up with something to discuss. My "dismissiveness", as I showed you, comes from the content of your own two articles which you clearly did not bother to read. Incredible.

Never mind guy, just forget it, as I have explained why I linked those articles and if you don't grasp it then just forget it, it's no big deal.


Well, another smokey morning on the mountain, we will be calling this old smokey soon, but I think you need to relax, dude, smell the roses and resign yourself to the inevitable. You have at least another year of your torment. I know my problems pale into insignificant in the face of the momentous challenge you face, after all, you are faced with that fierce dragon, Trump, who roars and breathes fire and challenges the very existence of something, and not a dragon slayer in sight

No Clete your challenges are huge and in many ways worse than a Dragan running around with no dragon slayer in sight.

Never mind guy, just forget it, as I have explained why I linked those articles and if you don't grasp it then just forget it, it's no big deal.

Actually you have not explained at all why you would link articles that do not in any way support your position, but as you say, it's not big deal.

No Clete your challenges are huge and in many ways worse than a Dragon running around with no dragon slayer in sight.

Yes I think the dragon has been running around here spreading fire all about, This is definitely the worst fire season we have faced, I cannot remember one as widespread as this, certainly, I cannot remember days of smoke haze blanketing the town and as I sometimes suffer with asthma I have to be careful. It certainly doesn't look like Christmas

Paraclete: Never heard it verbalized the way you put it here but the DRAGON analogy with Trump is a good one: Trump walked into the STATUS QUO POLITICS AS USUAL PLAYPEN we have had in place forever and didn't asked for permission...he didn't follow the patent RULES, he didn't just GO ALONG with all the schemes they had set up years and years before...the denizen vermin had a nice little Payton Place set up and Trump came in and knocked their little sand castles down....Trump is an outsider! The denizens of "The Swamp" had everyone convinced that you had to be a POLITICIAN to be POTUS: Trump destroyed that illusion and that is what all this Russia Investigation and Impeachment crap is all about: Trying to get rid of the guy who disrupted their little perfect world....everyone knows it, too, but they won't say it but its the truth.

Actually you have not explained at all why you would link articles that do not in any way support your position, but as you say, it's not big deal.

Look dude I just reported the possibility of the discovery of ancient human settlement that may be older than known before, and unlike you I have no problem with the criticism or opposite view. My original position that man has been here longer than first presumes still stands as a possibility. If you want to argue the inaccuracy of the numbers go ahead but be aware that a that it is but a range of the estimates and nobody expects exactness. nor is it an indication as YOU put forth of complete dismissal.

At least tell me you know the difference between dismiss, debunk, and disproved. You only have one of those descriptions on your side. without any evidence to support it at all. Typical fundamentalist's thinking, if it's not an exact match to your preconceived notion then it cannot count. By your thinking any thing we discuss that includes oppositional or contradictory thinking should be ignored? I don't dismiss the possibility of another view as easily as you seem able to.

I strive for the opposite. ALL the possibilities to examine. Afraid of being wrong are you?

Paraclete: Never heard it verbalized the way you put it here but the DRAGON analogy with Trump is a good one: Trump walked into the STATUS QUO POLITICS AS USUAL PLAYPEN we have had in place forever and didn't asked for permission...he didn't follow the patent RULES, he didn't just GO ALONG with all the schemes they had set up years and years before...the denizen vermin had a nice little Payton Place set up and Trump came in and knocked their little sand castles down....Trump is an outsider! The denizens of "The Swamp" had everyone convinced that you had to be a POLITICIAN to be POTUS: Trump destroyed that illusion and that is what all this Russia Investigation and Impeachment crap is all about: Trying to get rid of the guy who disrupted their little perfect world....everyone knows it, too, but they won't say it but its the truth.

I almost agreed with you except the conclusion you presented. The Russia investigation and the Impeachment are about the words, actions and antics of the dufus crossing lines of good behavior, that may be high crimes and misdemeanors, as well as explaining the HOW Vlad also crossed a line. Defend the dufus if you must, but defending Vlad is a whole nuther ballgame...he is no friend and has devious intentions that are in his own interest.

Surely you grasp the difference.

Yes I think the dragon has been running around here spreading fire all about, This is definitely the worst fire season we have faced, I cannot remember one as widespread as this, certainly, I cannot remember days of smoke haze blanketing the town and as I sometimes suffer with asthma I have to be careful. It certainly doesn't look like Christmas

Challenging weather, for sure, but hopefully we survive and find a way to adapt and mitigate our losses and are better prepared for the next challenge. For now though, just surviving THIS crisis is your only hope. I think if I were you I would have an oxygen mask and an escape route handy if that's possible, or be ready to run like hell away from this disaster. LOL, maybe at the first smell of smoke.

Challenging weather, for sure, but hopefully we survive and find a way to adapt and mitigate our losses and are better prepared for the next challenge. For now though, just surviving THIS crisis is your only hope. I think if I were you I would have an oxygen mask and an escape route handy if that's possible, or be ready to run like hell away from this disaster. LOL, maybe at the first smell of smoke.

Not likely to be an issue in town although there have been two nearby fires in recent days, as long as the pine forests don't burn we will be ok but it is dreadful for many. Nowhere to go Tal the route to my relatives elsewhere is bad, so will just stay here. 37C tomorrow, just hunker down and stay cool

I've never been through a wildfire, nor even near one, just blizzards and tornados and floods, and they were scary enough. I doubt I could even sleep with the smell of smoke and the fear of a fast moving wildfire, let alone worrying about my peeps. Hunker well my friend and stay cool.

I've never been through a wildfire, nor even near one, just blizzards and tornados and floods, and they were scary enough. I doubt I could even sleep with the smell of smoke and the fear of a fast moving wildfire, let alone worrying about my peeps. Hunker well my friend and stay cool.

Yes it is bad, had a fire crown over the top of me in 1975, the roar is like a dragon, very scary, still hoping for rain

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-10/nsw-bushfire-fears-as-weather-forecast-to-deteriorate/11780390

Just in case you're still interested! (https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-have-found-the-oldest-known-evidence-of-human-settlement-in-australia-s-unforgiving-outback)

Lot to learn if your mind is open and WILLING.


"The find is, of course, controversial, because that tiny axe fragment we mentioned earlier has been dated to around the same time period - 44,000 to 49,000 years ago (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/03122417.2016.1164379). The problem is these estimates are all fairly rough, and still up for interpretation - Hamm's team, for example, insists that the axe is no more than 48,000 years old. (https://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature20125.html)"[E]veryone is keen to make their site sound older," Sue O'Connor from the Australian National University, who was not involved in either find, told Marcus Strom at (http://www.smh.com.au/technology/sci-tech/astounding-archaeology-discovery-places-inland-human-occupation-of-australia-at-49000-years-20161102-gsg4ox.html)The Sydney Morning Herald (http://www.smh.com.au/technology/sci-tech/astounding-archaeology-discovery-places-inland-human-occupation-of-australia-at-49000-years-20161102-gsg4ox.html). But she did add that "the Hamm discovery was likely older"."The methodology of this study is as good as it gets," she said (http://www.smh.com.au/technology/sci-tech/astounding-archaeology-discovery-places-inland-human-occupation-of-australia-at-49000-years-20161102-gsg4ox.html). "It's a very important site and a really significant find."

My mind is quite open and quite willing. You finally came up with some evidence to back up your claim. It does sound legit.

Just in case you're still interested! (https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-have-found-the-oldest-known-evidence-of-human-settlement-in-australia-s-unforgiving-outback)

Lot to learn if your mind is open and WILLING.


"The find is, of course, controversial, because that tiny axe fragment we mentioned earlier has been dated to around the same time period - 44,000 to 49,000 years ago (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/03122417.2016.1164379). The problem is these estimates are all fairly rough, and still up for interpretation - Hamm's team, for example, insists that the axe is no more than 48,000 years old. (https://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature20125.html)"[E]veryone is keen to make their site sound older," Sue O'Connor from the Australian National University, who was not involved in either find, told Marcus Strom at (http://www.smh.com.au/technology/sci-tech/astounding-archaeology-discovery-places-inland-human-occupation-of-australia-at-49000-years-20161102-gsg4ox.html)The Sydney Morning Herald (http://www.smh.com.au/technology/sci-tech/astounding-archaeology-discovery-places-inland-human-occupation-of-australia-at-49000-years-20161102-gsg4ox.html). But she did add that "the Hamm discovery was likely older"."The methodology of this study is as good as it gets," she said (http://www.smh.com.au/technology/sci-tech/astounding-archaeology-discovery-places-inland-human-occupation-of-australia-at-49000-years-20161102-gsg4ox.html). "It's a very important site and a really significant find."


Yes Tal been in the Flinders Ranges, very dry place, I expect that those people were wandering because they were looking for water and food. The aboriginal never developed agriculture, they separated before that innovation became popular. it is said the first wave arrived 60,000 years ago, so assumptions that the place was quickly populated, or explored, is probably a myth. These peoples don't move around much today and I expect that is the way it was, only doing what you had too. The centre is a very inhospitable place and no one crosses those lands unless they have to. It may have been wetter during the ice age but there is no evidence it ever supported a large population

I don't know what kind of climate was around where they find these old human settlements many thousands of years ago, or where they went afterward, but they are finding them all over the world. Wonder if future man will find our stuff from this time and wonder where we went, or what happened to us? The most fascinating are the ones that lie beneath oceans and seas, that hints at rising water levels way back in the past.

I don't know what kind of climate was around where they find these old human settlements many thousands of years ago, or where they went afterward, but they are finding them all over the world. Wonder if future man will find our stuff from this time and wonder where we went, or what happened to us? The most fascinating are the ones that lie beneath oceans and seas, that hints at rising water levels way back in the past.

Yes Tal the timeline seems to be stretched a little more than a literal reading of theology might suggest but then who knows what ancient man got up to away from the Levant. Future man might wonder at how stupid we were, being unable to settle our differences and cooperate. I know archeologists date things with ash layers and the smoke is back this morning, so I don't know what that tells us

Tells us that you have a huge fire since the ash extends all the way to the New Zealand glaciers. No telling why or where ancient man walked to why, or from where or what, but obviously the did, and future man may well mark this as more barbaric times for human kind.

perhaps, however, it is unlikey the future for mankind will extend far enough for us to be considered barbarians. this is a golden age perhaps tipped towards decline.

Prevailing winds carry our smoke to kiwi, that is 2,500 miles, not surprising then that everywhere here is clouded in smoke

Things tend to be rather gloomy when you're in the middle of a disaster but keep your head up, and endure. Could be worse! You could have a volcano erupting too! Oh wait you do! (https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2019/12/11/New-Zealand-volcano-Increasing-risk-of-2nd-eruption-thwarts-recovery-efforts/4641576052269/)

Things tend to be rather gloomy when you're in the middle of a disaster but keep your head up, and endure. Could be worse! You could have a volcano erupting too! Oh wait you do! (https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2019/12/11/New-Zealand-volcano-Increasing-risk-of-2nd-eruption-thwarts-recovery-efforts/4641576052269/)

No Tal that is in Kiwi, we don't have any active volcanos here, I think the kiwis decided that they wouldn't be outdone

I think they have overdone it a bit.

I think they have overdone it a bit.

Yes many victims

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjlmFr4FMvI

and you know what, the outcome of the Madrid Conference and the anger of the CO2 religious nutcases confirm that it is all stupidity

Paraclete: Man, you nailed it! AGAIN!

It's what I do!

Interesting video. Question. Those who argue for reducing CO2 emissions, what is their true agenda?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Moore_(consultant)


According to Greenpeace, Moore is "a paid spokesman for the nuclear industry, the logging industry, and genetic engineering industry"[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Moore_(consultant)#cite_note-Greenpeace-Patrick-Moore-Info-3)
who "exploits long-gone ties with Greenpeace to sell himself as a speaker and pro-corporate spokesperson".[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Moore_(consultant)#cite_note-GP_on_PM-4)

Everybody has an agenda and profit is a great motivation for that agenda.

Everybody has an agenda and profit is a great motivation for that agenda.

Do you apply that equally to your side?

I said everybody!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Moore_(consultant)


According to Greenpeace, Moore is "a paid spokesman for the nuclear industry, the logging industry, and genetic engineering industry"
[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Moore_(consultant)#cite_note-Greenpeace-Patrick-Moore-Info-3)
who "exploits long-gone ties with Greenpeace to sell himself as a speaker and pro-corporate spokesperson".
[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Moore_(consultant)#cite_note-GP_on_PM-4)

Everybody has an agenda and profit is a great motivation for that agenda.


You don't like someone who has a reasoned argument

Not a matter of like, Clete but how much weight you give one guys opinion. Getting paid to say stuff isn't that endearing in my mind.

Not a matter of like, Clete but how much weight you give one guys opinion. Getting paid to say stuff isn't that endearing in my mind.

I say the same sort of stuff and I am not paid for it, thing is; climate change and CO2 being responsible for it is just opinion

The response to the fires is; we are on fire act now, as if announcing a new CO2 target would immediately make a difference. But the fact is no level of action in this nation will make any difference to the incidence of fire, or climate change in general. CO2 emissions are a northern hemisphere problem, if they are a problem at all, any contribution we make to emissions is very small. Fires happen, it is cyclical, and this time round; idiot attempts to control fire with backburning on a windy day has had a predictable outcome, fire jumping containment and loss of houses, small towns, important environmental gardens. My prayer is please preserve us from well meaning actions

Unfortunately Clete hard to make policy in the midst of crisis when dealing with the crisis is the priority. No doubt there will be many lessons to learn after it's over whenever that is but obviously whatever measures you had in place before were inadequate to prevent this crisis. I say the same thing about our own meager efforts after going through many years of many crisises.

Unfortunately Clete hard to make policy in the midst of crisis when dealing with the crisis is the priority. No doubt there will be many lessons to learn after it's over whenever that is but obviously whatever measures you had in place before were inadequate to prevent this crisis. I say the same thing about our own meager efforts after going through many years of many crisises.

As I said Tal it is cyclical and known to be an eleven year cycle so our efforts will remain meagre because you cannot have resources standing around for long periods. I don't know why the military have not been committed to help. anyway more smoke, this is not a healthy place to be

Waiting for the rain or the fires to burn themselves out is the hard part. We do it every year. Hope JL dodged those tornados tearing up the south.

Waiting for the rain or the fires to burn themselves out is the hard part. We do it every year. Hope JL dodged those tornados tearing up the south.

Yes, Tal no rain in sight, visibility down to 100 metres this morning, very bad situation with deaths and many more buildings lost. I had to turn off the AC last night to stop it sucking smoke in. I think if the British had known 250 years ago what we know now they may not have colonised this place

Yeah they still would have exiled folks thar, and anybody else who wanted to go.

Yeah they still would have exiled folks thar, and anybody else who wanted to go.

that is what happened, this was the eighteenth century equivalent of Mars

You could go back to where you came from and corrected your past mistakes.

You could go back to where you came from and corrected your past mistakes.

My people came from Ireland as free settlers

So? What's your point? Can't go back or something?

So? What's your point? Can'tgo back or something?

Nothing to go back to, I'm sixth generation and 77, it is all long ago and my history is here, not rooted in the battles of a millenium and religion.

If I go to those places they are not home, I've been to Europe, etc as the say, see the pyramids along the Nile, etc and my observation is there is no better place than here. Even with the threats posed by climate etc, this is a good place, not beset by the issue others face

"No place like home," they say. I'm 2nd generation Irish - Clare, Cork, and Kerry in the Southwest. All the old ones are gone - along with their brogues and lyrical way of expresssion. A great people.

"No place like home," they say. I'm 2nd generation Irish - Clare, Cork, and Kerry in the Southwest. All the old ones are gone - along with their brogues and lyrical way of expresssion. A great people.

Yes indeed, my people left Antrim in 1822

Guess you ain't going back then and why should you? This seems like a temporary condition even if only Mother Nature will know when it's over. Be safe.

I pray it is temporary, the fires are within 50 km I had hoped they were moving in the other direction but it seems not, the roads are closed to the east and the smoke is back after a brief respite yesterday, it rolls in like a fog

What makes it worse is the loonies are raving about climate change and there have been worse climate events over the last century.

I feel ya! I feel the same when a loony hollers about his rights after many die in a mass shooting.

No comparison Tal, no man with a gun destroyed 800 homes and 1 million acres although he might have killed the same number of people. I cannot understand this american obsession with the gun either, or the obsession with gun rights but then your ethos is different to ours, our nation wasn't forged with the gun

Come on Clete, your people didn't beat the aboriginis into submission with rocks and clubs.

Come on Clete, your people didn't beat the aboriginies into submission with rocks and clubs.

It is debatable how many there were and many died of disease, no immunity to things like small pox, and other european iiseases. Yes, there were a couple of small wars, but spears don't work against guns and horses. Don't think of our indigenous as highly organised or settled like your own. Our settlers thought of the indigenous as part of the fauna, and honestly, I think the kangaroos are capable of putting up more fight. The abo's were raiders, after food, not victories, when they did attack settlers they had no concept of fighting from cover. A rifle has greater range than a spear so a few troops and determined land holders quickly overran them. Our dangerous animals didn't need a gun, just a stick

Where ever Euros go they kill just by breathing on the population, and those noisey sticks quell the rest. Easy pickings for the noble conquerors.

Not suggesting those who came here were noble, you wouldn't find a british noble that far from home, not after Cornwallis got his nose bloodied, it took a while before they ventured into the colonies again

but spears don't work against guns Exactly correct.

Ok Buudy what can you hit with a spear at a hundred yards or even fifty

Ok Buudy what can you hit with a spear at a hundred yards or even fifty That's kind of the point. When faced with a gun, I need a gun to defend myself. Lessor weapons just won't do.

That's what comes of letting people have guns

That's what comes of letting people have guns

Like criminals?

Like criminals?
No, like my NRA husband who nearly shot our neighborlady for coming over after dark to borrow some eggs for a cookie recipe.

That's kind of the point. When faced with a gun, I need a gun to defend myself. Lessor weapons just won't do.

Didn't you learn anything from those old westerns when you were a kid? A bad gun with a gun never announces himself preferring the ambush to any rules of honor and fair play. So good luck protecting yourself when they get the drop on you, and take all your guns money or whatever else they want!

Heaven forbid you make a mistake and kill somebody because you feel threatened and find out the neighbors kid was just selling prom tickets. I thought you of all people trusted God, his will and judgement. I guess you think you need a back up?


Not suggesting those who came here were noble, you wouldn't find a british noble that far from home, not after Cornwallis got his nose bloodied, it took a while before they ventured into the colonies again

I guess you guys and the gun things evolved after you conquered the land you now own.


Like criminals?

Sure do as the criminal does with your good intentions.

Didn't you learn anything from those old westerns when you were a kid? A bad gun with a gun never announces himself preferring the ambush to any rules of honor and fair play. So good luck protecting yourself when they get the drop on you, and take all your guns money or whatever else they want! So now you want to formulate policy based on old Western movies? Go for it if you want to, but I won't be with you on that one. People use guns in self defense dozens of times every day. I'll bet you have one. I'll bet you have more than one,


Heaven forbid you make a mistake and kill somebody because you feel threatened and find out the neighbors kid was just selling prom tickets. I thought you of all people trusted God, his will and judgement. I guess you think you need a back up?I'm very careful when I handle a gun. Trusting God? Yeah, I trust God and own a gun just like I trust in God and lock my doors at night and don't drive down certain streets at night. Trusting God doesn't mean you go out and behave stupidly.

So now you want to formulate policy based on old Western movies? Go for it if you want to, but I won't be with you on that one. People use guns in self defense dozens of times every day. I'll bet you have one. I'll bet you have more than one,

Never allowed a gun in my house EVER! If I wanted one I would have one in short order though. Doesn't mean we don't enjoy the target range though.


I'm very careful when I handle a gun. Trusting God? Yeah, I trust God and own a gun just like I trust in God and lock my doors at night and don't drive down certain streets at night. Trusting God doesn't mean you go out and behave stupidly.

I could tell you stories of my youth, and like the old westerns many lessons learned. Nothing to do with making gun policy, but does influence my own personal policy, words, and actions. I try to just keep learning more. Maybe one day we can have a logical gun policy without the fear.

I could tell you stories of my youth, and like the old westerns many lessons learned. Nothing to do with making gun policy, but does influence my own personal policy, words, and actions. I try to just keep learning more. Maybe one day we can have a logical gun policy without the fear. Fair enough statement.

Same goes for this climate change stuff!

I am convinced that changing the CO2 content of the atmosphere is a lousy idea, but as to a solution, I don't see one. The Green New Deal is the dumbest idea out there.

Not the dumbest. Doing nothing is much dumber.

No. Spending tens of trillions of borrowed dollars to ruin our economy is much, much worse than doing nothing.

I think an idea needs congressional approval before any money can be spent, and I'm not seeing that happen. How much does your idea costs?

How much does your idea costs?I don't have an idea. I haven't heard of anything that gives me much cause for hope. Nuke plants are the only solution that I know of, but that's not going to happen because of fear. Wind and solar are pipe dreams. Natural gas will help some. Perhaps there is some hope for hydrogen, but that would be enormously expensive up front and has a boatload of problems associated with it. I just don't have a good answer, but I do know a completely stupid one when it shows up, and the Green New Deal is likely the worst I have ever seen.

No worse than thinking you will build new nuclear plants in a year or two. The new green deal is actually being tried in a few places already to some degree, or another, and has a better chance of paying for itself than those rich guy tax cuts. I guess any idea about anything can be stupid to some body or other. It's not like we haven't screwed up trillions before on stupid ideas or even good ideas that were done badly.

The new green deal is actually being tried in a few places already to some degree, or another, and has a better chance of paying for itself than those rich guy tax cuts. It has absolutely, positively no chance whatsoever of paying for itself. None at all. It is projected to cost tens of trillions of dollars and will result in less reliable electricity at a much higher price.



It's not like we haven't screwed up trillions before on stupid ideas or even good ideas that were done badly. When have we spent trillions on stupid ideas? I guess you could throw in the Great Society programs, but other than that I have no idea what you could be referring to.

It has absolutely, positively no chance whatsoever of paying for itself. None at all. It is projected to cost tens of trillions of dollars and will result in less reliable electricity at a much higher price.


When have we spent trillions on stupid ideas? I guess you could throw in the Great Society programs, but other than that I have no idea what you could be referring to.

I have already specified that deficit funded 1.2 trillion dollar rich guy give away that hasn't paid for itself. Can't believe you would do away with the "Great Society" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Society) programs!


"Unlike the old New Deal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal), which was a response to a severe financial and economic calamity, the Great Society initiatives came during a period of rapid economic growth. Kennedy proposed an across-the-board tax cut lowering the top marginal income tax rate in the United States by 20%, from 91% to 71%, which was enacted in February 1964, three months after Kennedy's assassination, under Johnson. The tax cut also significantly reduced marginal rates in the lower brackets as well as for corporations. The
gross national product (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_national_product)
rose 10% in the first year of the tax cut, and economic growth averaged a rate of 4.5% from 1961 to 1968.
[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Society#cite_note-4)"


That's right up conservatives alley, so it must be the social programs you object to, which benefitted the aged, the poor, and minorities.

I have already specified that deficit funded 1.2 trillion dollar rich guy give away that hasn't paid for itself. How do you know that? Reagan did the same thing. Kennedy did the same thing. In both cases it was given widespread credit (even in your post) for reviving the economy and tax revenues climbed, just like they are doing now. And as I've asked you before, when the bottom 80% of income earners only pay about 15% of income taxes, and when the bottom 50% pay virtually nothing, then how do you give those people any really meaningful tax relief?

As for the New Deal programs, that cost was a drop in the bucket compared to the absolutely impossible bill for the Green New Deal.

Hope you had a wonderful Christmas.

My holiday ends on the 2nd of January, and it's been great so far, sincerely hope the same to you, and yours. Rreagan at least had the flexibility to raise taxes to mitigate some spending and yes I have always given him credit fr it. Those people as you call them are Americans who actually spend whatever they have in the real economy and contribute payroll taxes. More money in there pockets with a living wage circulates more money into the economy. A simple concept as opposed to rich guy's hoarding huge chunks of money and building their own wealth. Taxation is but part of the economic revenue stream and while rich guys have added to their wealth middle classers and the poor cannot perpetrating wage inequality, and wage stagnation neither of which helps the economy, or solve the circulation problem.

Just increasing tax revenues is, but a small part of the equation, and does nothing to pay on the debt, build and upgrade bridges roads and schools or give us clean air water and soil, or help a citizen pay his heating bill, or cure his cancer. Yes we have a bunch of data for that and a lot that says other things must also go into cutting taxes for anybody as outlined by Roosevelt and Johnson which Bush and the dufus didn't emulate.

Those people as you call them are Americans who actually spend whatever they have in the real economy and contribute payroll taxes. More money in there pockets with a living wage circulates more money into the economy. A simple concept as opposed to rich guy's hoarding huge chunks of money and building their own wealth. I know it's tedious, but since you gave a non-answer, I'll ask it again. "And as I've asked you before, when the bottom 80% of income earners only pay about 15% of income taxes, and when the bottom 50% pay virtually nothing, then how do you give those people any really meaningful tax relief?"



Just increasing tax revenues is, but a small part of the equation, and does nothing to pay on the debt, build and upgrade bridges roads and schools or give us clean air water and soil, or help a citizen pay his heating bill, or cure his cancer.A small part of the equation? What's the rest of the equation?

Start with a living wage. Most states are getting it, and doing just that. A business that cannot afford to pay it's workers a living wage should NOT be in business and certainly not be rewarded with riches, and tax breaks. LOL big biz wasn't paying the old tax rates which were to high and now will only pay half the new tax rates. I posted a link before about the biggest and richest corporations not even paying their lawful share of the tax burden but of course you ignored that FACT!

Start with a living wage. Most states are getting it, and doing just that. A business that cannot afford to pay it's workers a living wage should NOT be in business and certainly not be rewarded with riches, and tax breaks. LOL big biz wasn't paying the old tax rates which were to high and now will only pay half the new tax rates. I posted a link before about the biggest and richest corporations not even paying their lawful share of the tax burden but of course you ignored that FACT!It is true that many states have raised the minimum wage. It is not true that they have raised it to "a living wage". Many of them are going to 8 or 9 dollars an hour which is not exactly a "get rich" level.

I did respond to your "lawful share of the tax burden" link. I proposed a flat tax. You nearly fell over in a dead faint at the suggestion because, like all true liberals, you feared that YOUR taxes might go up.

Dead faint and fear of higher taxes is an exaggeration, but agree 8/9 bucks an hour is hardly a get rich quick wage, but it's a start to a more living wage standard that another raise follows in a year or two to get to the 12/15 minumum eventually in a shorter time than was set before which has been stuck on pure poverty for decades. Not for a flat tax at all as it's completely unfair without closing a lot of loopholes and eliminating deductions and benefits and makes little sense to those that live in states with state taxes. Let's not forget those states that already pay less to the government than they receive back. Maybe we should raise taxes on those states to make it more equal or fair to states that pay in more than they get back. As you say though how does one who pays so little deserve a tax break at all and address that to the mirror before you answer.

Doesn't change or address the FACT that few rich people and corporations don't pay the previous or current tax rates anyway, so even that claim is an exaggeration if not a borderline LIE to begin with. The very notion that rich and poor pay the same rate is stupid, as well as unfair, but a long time scheme of greedy conservatives with no regard to fair. The dufus and Romney have openly bragged about paying the same rates as the people who work for them and earn markedly less wage, and obviously can afford to pay people to make that a reality. They can even afford to buy the official YOU elect to act in their best interest over YOUR best interest so we get not public servants but private ones.

That explains why you are so gung ho about a lying cheating stealing dufus as POTUS! Keep holding your nose so it doesn't fall off your face.

Not for a flat tax at all as it's completely unfair without closing a lot of loopholes and eliminating deductions and benefits and makes little sense to those that live in states with state taxes.That's kind of the definition of a flat tax. Everyone would get a personal deduction to start with. If it's 30K for a family of four, then they would pay taxes on the part above thirty thousand. As to those states with state income taxes (like Mississippi), they are already paying both fed and state taxes anyway, so that part of the deal would not change.


Doesn't change or address the FACT that few rich people and corporations don't pay the previous or current tax rates anyway, so even that claim is an exaggeration if not a borderline LIE to begin with. The very notion that rich and poor pay the same rate is stupid, as well as unfair, but a long time scheme of greedy conservatives with no regard to fair.No one ever said they pay the tax rate. That only applies to taxable income, a concept which the flat tax would do away with. What you don't want to face is the FACT that the wealthy already pay nearly all of the fed income taxes in this country.

That's fair they pay their share since they have all the wealth and make all the money. About that flat tax though, does a rich guy have that same rate above $30K? Does he have the same personal deductions?

they have all the wealth and make all the moneyYou are thoroughly wrong on both counts. Not even close.


That's fair they pay their share since they have all the wealth and make all the money. About that flat tax though, does a rich guy have that same rate above $30K? Does he have the same personal deductions? Let's suppose a family of four makes 50K, so they would pay taxes on 20K. If we suppose the flat tax is 20%, then they would pay 4K, which is about 8% of their income. A person making one mil a year would basically pay about 200K, meaning he is paying 20%, or 2.5 times more percentage wise than the lower income person. Sounds fair to me.

You are thoroughly wrong on both counts. Not even close.

Let's suppose a family of four makes 50K, so they would pay taxes on 20K. If we suppose the flat tax is 20%, then they would pay 4K, which is about 8% of their income. A person making one mil a year would basically pay about 200K, meaning he is paying 20%, or 2.5 times more percentage wise than the lower income person. Sounds fair to me.
Yes a person having twenty times the income has greater advantage from the economy and should contribute more however in such a system tax revenues would be insufficient and government would need to be shrunk you can have no thought of deductions and loopholes

That has always been the right wing dream Clete, to shrink the government small enough to drown it in a bath tub so they can do as they please with impunity. You should read up on Grover Norquist and Karl Rove. While they have left the spotlight they are behind the scenes bundling the big money. What you thought the loony right was smart enough to elect the dufus on his own? Between Vlad and the dark money he had plenty of help.


You are thoroughly wrong on both counts. Not even close.

Let's suppose a family of four makes 50K, so they would pay taxes on 20K. If we suppose the flat tax is 20%, then they would pay 4K, which is about 8% of their income. A person making one mil a year would basically pay about 200K, meaning he is paying 20%, or 2.5 times more percentage wise than the lower income person. Sounds fair to me.

And you really think the rich guys will stand for you closing their loopholes, havens and shelters for their wealth? What a fantasy.

And you really think the rich guys will stand for you closing their loopholes, havens and shelters for their wealth? What a fantasy.

Those rich guys presently pay 85% of fed income taxes, so they must not be very good at coming up with a tax plan that benefits them. And you should remember that when I first suggested a flat tax, it was YOU who nearly passed out at the very thought that YOUR taxes might go up. So if you get to try and make your taxes lower, why can't they as well?

LOL, are you kidding me? Paying taxes on half(?) their money, is a tribute to their power even if it is 85% of tax revenues collected. Nobody really knows the kind of money hidden offshore or even exempted from taxation. FACT remains most corporations don't pay taxes at all, and get money back from the IRS. No wonder a snake oil salesman can hustle you out of your hard earned money. Your position is inaccurate and repeating it won't change that.

When they start building roads and bridges and schools you can talk to me. Until then you need a more accurate rap BRUDDER!

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BBYhwMp.img?h=416&w=624&m=6&q=60&u=t&o=f&l=f&x=673&y=351

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BBYmxOp.img?h=416&w=624&m=6&q=60&u=t&o=f&l=f

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BBYmCDa.img?h=416&w=624&m=6&q=60&u=t&o=f&l=f

LOL, are you kidding me? Paying taxes on half(?) their money, is a tribute to their power even if it is 85% of tax revenues collected. Nobody really knows the kind of money hidden offshore or even exempted from taxation. FACT remains most corporations don't pay taxes at all, and get money back from the IRS.

Do you have any documentation on any of that (especially the underlined part), or is that just what you think might be true? And you didn't answer the question. If it is OK for you to protest against paying more in taxes, why isn't it alright for them?

Look it up and correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think you have ever heard me complain about MY taxes going up, though I have complained about the dufus putting taxpayer dollars in his pocket when he visits his businesses. Big Biz has always complained about taxes and paying labor costs while they make profits up the butt.

That's why we can talk AFTER they have built roads, schools, bridges, and cleaned up their messes themselves. Fair enough? I mean you wanted single woman and lazy poor people to be held to account so you would think you would feel the same about Big Biz.

Am I wrong?

Look it up and correct me if I'm wrong.In other words, you have no documentation and have simply made it all up.



That's why we can talk AFTER they have built roads, schools, bridges, and cleaned up their messes themselves. Fair enough?You mean you don't have roads, schools, and bridges in Texas??? No wonder you are complaining so much. Move over here. We already have all of those things.

In other words, you have no documentation and have simply made it all up.

Always want me to do your work for you huh. Not this time since I have already provided links from a previous conversation on the subject so that makes it your turn unless you admit to alzhiemers or something. That I could understand.


You mean you don't have roads, schools, and bridges in Texas??? No wonder you are complaining so much. Move over here. We already have all of those things.

Naw, but I'll compare your part of I20 to ours anytime, that goes for schools and bridges too. You know better than to mess with Texas.

Always want me to do your work for you huh. Not this time since I have already provided links from a previous conversation on the subject so that makes it your turn unless you admit to alzhiemers or something. That I could understand.Since you are the one who made the completely ridiculous statement, then it's up to you to back it up. If you don't understand that, then maybe you're the one dealing with Alzheimers.



Naw, but I'll compare your part of I20 to ours anytime, that goes for schools and bridges too. You know better than to mess with Texas.So you do have schools, roads, and bridges? Then why did you say you didn't? Are you confused tonight? Mess with Texas? That made me laugh. No one is Mississippi is worried about what Texas does.

Not this time since I have already provided links from a previous conversation on the subject so that makes it your turn unless you admit to alzhiemers or something.


Just trying to help guy, Ms could use the help.

Not this time since I have already provided links from a previous conversation on the subject so that makes it your turn unless you admit to alzhiemers or something. Then you should have no problem in locating them. At any rate, big biz and wealthy people are doing just what you and I do. They are trying to minimize what they have to pay in taxes. A flat tax would solve much of the problem.

I've been hearing that for years JL, from your side.

Ok Jl, taxes are levied on net profit, which is what is left over after expenses and various writeoffs, but if you wanted to have a fair system you would have to tax gross income with no deductions, this stops tax avoidance. So what do you consider a fair rate, 10% perhaps, remembering that whatever it is business will attempt to have others pay by increasing prices

Then you should have no problem in locating them. At any rate, big biz and wealthy people are doing just what you and I do. They are trying to minimize what they have to pay in taxes. A flat tax would solve much of the problem.

You and I don't have lawyers and accountants and lobbyist writing laws making deductions, or showing us tax shelters, and havens, nor the disposable income to buy elected officials favor and donate to their campaigns. Maybe you do but I don't. Is it even reasonable to expect rich guys to stop their loopholes, deductions, and tax shelters if they haven't so far under any taxing scheme? Where do you even get a congress that could make them?

if you wanted to have a fair system you would have to tax gross income with no deductions, this stops tax avoidance.It might be something to consider. For me, I wouldn't tax corporations at all. The best approach is to tax the dividends paid out by corporations.


You and I don't have lawyers and accountants and lobbyist writing laws making deductions, or showing us tax shelters, and havens, nor the disposable income to buy elected officials favor and donate to their campaigns. Maybe you do but I don't. Is it even reasonable to expect rich guys to stop their loopholes, deductions, and tax shelters if they haven't so far under any taxing scheme? Where do you even get a congress that could make them?We use a CPA to do our taxes and I would suggest everyone do it. Costs a couple hundred bucks but well worth it. As to a flat tax, it could begin by the two of us agreeing it should happen, but you are too fearful it might cause your taxes to go up.

If it feeds and educates poor kids, and builds, schools, roads, and bridges I have no objection to taxes going up, even if they were in poor states like yours that take more from the feds than they give. I worry a lot more about the price of necessary stuff like gas, lights, and MEDS way more than taxes to be honest.

That's more your thing than mine.

Yes Tal when you don't pay them they are not a concern

Try reading with no gas, lights, or internet in the middle of a cold winter. Concern is an understatement.

You have to have internet to be able to read???

The internet does expand the reading options quite well, as well as gives me more flexibility and convenience. It's as necessary as a phone for communicating with my peeps since kids and Gkids cousins and FRIENDS are in different cities, states, and countries.

The internet does expand the reading options quite well, as well as gives me more flexibility and convenience. It's as necessary as a phone for communicating with my peeps since kids and Gkids cousins and FRIENDS are in different cities, states, and countries.

I get your point. It is certainly nice to have, but it is hardly a necessity. Same thing goes for cell phones. In fact, they can both end up as negatives. Now lights and heat are a different matter.

One mans luxury can be anothers necessity sometimes but I get your point, as it's hilarious to see devices stuck to so many peoples faces.

I don't think it is a joke it is pathetic

Let the kids enjoy their new toy, before they get exiled to Mars next year.

Our civilisation has lost much even the ability to reason as my new T-shirt boldly proclaims " there is no intelligent life anywhere"

Loonies are people too, and have the same rights as the so called reasonable people of our society. Everybody wants a T-shirt! LOL, I have often wondered if those I thought were reasonable people were really all that reasonable to begin with. Just because they don't holler and talk crazy stuff didn't mean they didn't do some wacky stuff.

I believe we've chewed down to the heart of the problem. There will always be imperfection in our society, world, community, church, household, fill in the blank.

Where we can discuss, we can be safe and maybe even civil. Progress can be slow, but that's better sometimes than going backwards or overlooking certain dangers. I think learning to deal with the problems of the world, even understanding the problems of the world, is a complex endeavor. Big problems have complicated solutions, and can be hard to come by. History can teach us when it's a bad time to act, but can never predict the future.

I believe we've chewed down to the heart of the problem. There will always be imperfection in our society, world, community, church, household, fill in the blank.

Where we can discuss, we can be safe and maybe even civil. Progress can be slow, but that's better sometimes than going backwards or overlooking certain dangers. I think learning to deal with the problems of the world, even understanding the problems of the world, is a complex endeavor. Big problems have complicated solutions, and can be hard to come by. History can teach us when it's a bad time to act, but can never predict the future.

I have long recognized man cannot control the weather, but by in large we can see it coming and get out of the way of it or adapt to it's passing. No excuse for not having clean air, and water, and land, and the ability to clean up our messes, we have been known to make. Those are things we can control, and should endeavor to do better at. This wacky climate change debate, with it's soaring rhetoric on both sides, is but a distraction from what we can and should do about our situation.

I can find common ground with you talaniman, you are %100 correct

We need environmental protections regardless of the debate, also we need to improve the management of those that exist.

We also need to support a culture of a clean earth to promote good practices amongst it's citizens.

Unfortunately that's difficult in todays climate of the costs of conservation and clean air, because we seem to have a huge conflict of who pays for it. I am uncertain of that aspect myself as we have plans but no money it seems. Young people though seem to be more engaged than we were though so maybe we are still just moving in that direction slowly, so ever torturously slowly.

It's like the old story of the mice deciding that their lives would be much better if someone would put a bell around the cat's neck. The difficulty was in deciding how to get the bell on the cat. When you figure out how to cut back on carbon fuels without doubling or tripling utility costs, then I'd love to hear it.

The bell is on the cat, we know where it's coming and what it brings, Currently regions avail themselves of whatever alternatives they have and when those sources are not enough they of course ramp up the use of the fossil fuels. True some regions have more options than others, and differing degrees of resources from which to use so the onous it seems is to energy providers to best lean in with doable plans which as it stands now represents rising energy costs for consumers no matter what they do. I must point out the the costs are rising without a better plan, adding difficulting to the whole problem. Yes JL we agree, we both don't want the energy cost to double or triple in a short term, but they have been rising steadily for an awful long time as it is.

You know I have to tell you your political problems regarding cost are insignificant as I am forced to stand idly by and see my family directly affected by the ravages of climate and I don't blame government since they are powerless to stop a force of nature. Government is not to blame for climate change and no response is going to make any difference. What might make a difference is to stop bickering about rediculous political issues and cooperate

Yes JL we agree, we both don't want the energy cost to double or triple in a short term, but they have been rising steadily for an awful long time as it is.Our electricity costs are very low relative to most other nations.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/263492/electricity-prices-in-selected-countries/

We probably agree on a lot more things than we know of. I imagine our lives were somewhat similar.



stop bickering about rediculous political issues and cooperateCooperate about what? (serious question)

Cooperate about what? (serious question)

You really don't know, do you?

Think of a subject and think of the debate that rages around it, nothing constructive gets done as point scoring becomes the norm. This forum is a case in point. What useful purpose does it serve?

You think this, I think that. A wise man said it long ago. "all is vanity"

You really don't know, do you?

I know what I think. Not being a prophet, I have no idea what you think, so that's why I asked. If you don't want to answer, then that's fine by me.

I know what I think. Not being a prophet, I have no idea what you think, so that's why I asked. If you don't want to answer, then that's fine by me.
Clete DID answer!

You know I have to tell you your political problems regarding cost are insignificant as I am forced to stand idly by and see my family directly affected by the ravages of climate and I don't blame government since they are powerless to stop a force of nature. Government is not to blame for climate change and no response is going to make any difference. What might make a difference is to stop bickering about rediculous political issues and cooperate

Like it or not that's how we get to cooperation here Clete, and I can understand you not feelin' it like we do, since you have certainly more to think about than just political banter.


You really don't know, do you?

Think of a subject and think of the debate that rages around it, nothing constructive gets done as point scoring becomes the norm. This forum is a case in point. What useful purpose does it serve?

You think this, I think that. A wise man said it long ago. "all is vanity"

Guilty as charged. What can we do for you n your time of need? Surprised we haven't done that alreay since we have planes and boats and helicopters and troops close enough to help.

Like it or not that's how we get to cooperation here Clete, and I can understand you not feelin' it like we do, since you have certainly more to think about than just political banter.

Guilty as charged. What can we do for you n your time of need? Surprised we haven't done that already since we have planes and boats and helicopters and troops close enough to help.

Tal we have overseas help people have come in from Canada but what is needed is water bombing aircraft but I understand they sit on the ground over there because some bureaucrat is worried about cost, our military has been activated however the scale is overwhelming. In some places the only way to defend is bulldozers and you are talking of thousands of kilometres of firefront. they are taking people off the beaches. I think it is a coordination nightmare, evacuation orders when they need to roads cleared for response vehicles and the temperature has not backed off

Clete DID answer!Really? What did he say we should cooperate on? I don't see how, "You really don't know, do you?" amounts to an answer.

All too frequently, when other countries want us to cooperate, it means they want us to spend some more of our borrowed, debt increasing money.

Really? What did he say we should cooperate on? I don't see how, "You really don't know, do you?" amounts to an answer.

All too frequently, when other countries want us to cooperate, it means they want us to spend some more of our borrowed, debt increasing money.

As I said you don't know. Everything has to be a confrontation with you, but you get more done with consensus. You have divided your country into two opposing camps and taken on the characteristics of the mascots you have claimed to represent your political parties. Look inside, do the cooperation within your borders, spend your money on yourselves if you must, we don't want your money. You see you are unable to see any point of view but your own and all we get from you is argy, bargy.

Everything has to be a confrontation with you,I am simply asking what you want our countries to cooperate on. You responded by telling me I don't know, and I'm responding by telling you that's why I asked. I don't see how that's confrontational, but if it bothers you for some reason then we can just drop it.

I think JL missed the post you went into specifics about Clete, but I cautions you that after years of fighting fires all the planes and bulldozers and volunteers have failed to stop those ravaging fires that happen every year here. When the weather changes the fires die and I am afraid that's going to be a realization for your fires too. There just as here we are ALL overwhelmed and helpless by Mother Nature whatever you want to call her and what she does with impunity. Sure it's easy to ignore when human lives aren't involved, then nobody wants to hear about preparations like EVACUATION, often massive and immediate, but no we wait until the efforts become futile to stop the disaster the weather visits on us.

We all do it Clete, and will do it again even though we KNEW it was going to happen and can't be stopped. LOL, be better if your plan for preparedness had been a place to run to rather than how many dozers and planes to fight the futile fight with, I mean this ain't your first and you would be crazy to think it won't happen again even if as you have said it's an 11 year cycle firestorm. LOL, you have surely seen we cannot help ourselves when Mother Nature kicks up, so to think we can help YOU, is pretty unreasonable don't you think?

Instead of the argy bargy blame game, you are better served RUNNING for safety, instead of putting faith in dozers, planes, and boats after the fact. Till we humans own our mistakes we are hardly going to correct them.

I think JL missed the post you went into specifics about Clete,Maybe you can tell me what I missed. Clete said we should cooperate. I am simply asking what he wants our cooperation on. Is he talking about their wildfires? Climate change? Defense?

Have some empathy for what the Aussies are going through because desperate is an understatement and no sign of relief appears on the horizon, except to rescue and remove people to safety ASAP. None of us here have the expertise or authority to begin to know what logistics and resources can meet this challenge and expecting victims to have a clue is futile. Helicoptering victims of this event to waiting boats is all I got and the government surely has reached that conclusion as well.

It does have to be a terrible situation. I've never lost a house to natural disaster or even a house fire, but I can imagine it must be a terrible experience.

Traumatic is the word I use. The often report the disaster and the aftermath, but Australia is a ways off from even that relief. I have seen it take years to recover from such events and seldom will you see that story reported. If they are they are few and far between and don't come close to portraying the horrific recovery victims actually face. Not blaming the media completely since their seems to be a disaster of nature and man made every day of this accelerated news cycle.

Depressing!

Yes Tal it is depressing but a ray of hope, my family is safe however what happens now I don't know

A ray is better than nothing Clete, Just try to stay safe and weather this firestorm.

A ray is better than nothing Clete, Just try to stay safe and weather this firestorm.

Tal I'm safe but they predict the return of the same or worse tomorrow so who knows what will develop next it is like armageddon

I thought Armeggedon was the end of the world? This is just the reality of Paradice Island.

CALIFORNIA: A bowl of fruits and nuts! Any state who thinks legalizing dope smoking is something to brag about is entirely off the deep end.....All those states that have legalized it are very similar: ANTIBUSINESS!

They said that about alcohol in the 30's and the mob made bookoo bucks from it. Not just in California either. How about them LEGAL dope dealing doctors and those opiods?

Talaniman: ALL recreational dope use is patently wrong. ALL unnecessary dope administration is patently wrong. ANY DOCTOR who prescribes ANY DOPE, you pick the poison, as a methodology to attain some end result, when there are other means available to reach that same end result, should be scrutinized and evaluated for breaking his Hippocratic Oath with the removal of his or her medical license a possible punishment......And I feel the same way about those parents that condone doping up their kids because they refuse to parent: that is very disgusting! Parents need to stop looking for the easy way out!

Talaniman, I just don't see the "cool factor" in dope smoking! It is going to wreck this country. Go find one person who "resurrected" themselves by beginning to smoke dope.....find someone who can honestly tell you that "My life was on the skids until I found Marijuana and now, that I started smoking it, my life is just so much better! You will not find one!

Dope smoking is destructive, not constructive. Poor Illinois has a$850 million dollar deficit but they are bragging about legal dope sales bringing in a measly $4 million in revenues, holding that up as some justification of dope as a big revenue maker. They are even advocating dope to the poorer inner city as a means to help them raise revenue: these are areas where other forms of drug abuse have helped wreck the populations! THERE IS SOMETHING EVIL ABOUT THIS WHOLE DOPE MANIA!

Did you know the Japanese, when they invaded China, legalized and help proliferate Opium usage amongst the Chinese population? Why do you think they did that? It wasn't to help the Chinese, it was to put them into a lethargic, doped-up state where they wouldn't resist Japanese ambitions. Dope usage is in no way good.

I am not a saint by any stretch and never proclaimed to be one....I am full of sins and my own proclivities to sin with mine being a weakness for beautiful women...its a battle I have lost, won, and lost, yet again: will power is challenged and I understand how challenging it can be....but I recognize dope as inherently evil.

From climate change to dope! Welcome back Vac, but most dope heads, and alcohol users included, are highly functional responsible members of society so let's not equate users with abusers or lump all bad behavior into the same bucket for the same reason as their are legit reasons to medicate, just as their are not to self medicate. Good doctors and bad ones and if all you see is the bad then all you do is make the good suffer for it.

MJ and alcohol are the same to me and no way do I put MJ in the same category with heroin, or morphine for prosecutorial purposes. Bit of over kill there bud.

Talaniman: Good points and points well taken.....The problem with all of these things is that they are so "hairy": How do you parse the angle hairs to extract the acceptable from the unacceptable. The law is entirely absurd at time and uses a broad brush to paint everything the same color......Hell, where I live, if you get pissed drunk and decide to "relieve your bladder" on the side of the road and a man in blue sees you, he will arrest you and you will be convicted of a "SEX CRIME" and put on the same list as a Sex Criminal with rapists and child molesters....that is ridiculous, as well. But, I just have my own issues with MJ that make me feel so strongly about it: My brother, a Vietnam Vet, came back from S.E. Asia smoking it and it took him almost 20 years to get ahold of his life.....I don't and can't know for certain HOW MUCH MJ played a part in all of that but I do know it was a staple of his life so I attribute that it had some bearing on his issues.

It's so easy to to jump to a conclusion for complex situations and sorry about your brother. Nam screwed quite a few people up for years.

Looks pretty tough.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/pictures-raging-wildfires-in-australia

Looks pretty tough.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/pictures-raging-wildfires-in-australia

Yes jl one small part of the problem. today will be a critical day, one of many so far. Understand that if this is due to climate change, we are all screwed and what we are seeing mirrors biblical prophesy

Understand that if this is due to climate change, we are all screwed and what we are seeing mirrors biblical prophesyCould very well be.

Such catastrophic disasters have happened before throughout history everywhere, and they are still here, so you probably will be too after it's over Clete, whenever that may be.

Such catastrophic disasters have happened before throughout history everywhere, and they are still here, so you probably will be too after it's over Clete, whenever that may be.


I'm still here tal and my family is still in the fire zone and cannot get out