Generalissimo Francisco Franco's remains will be removed from entombment on Thursday, 10/24/'19: This is just another example of the whitewashing of history that many nations all over the world have gotten into as of late. In the U.S. South, there has been a move to tear down Confederate monuments. In Afghanistan, the Taliban tore down Buddha statues. in Syria, ISIS tore down Churches and tore up the ruins of ancient Roman civilization. This mentality is a sickness. The zealotry of the Third World can be attributed to religious craziness but in civilized First World nations like the U.S. and Spain, what is the mental breakdown that drives the whitewashing of history?

Maybe in the civilized world the due process of law has been followed and a lot of the oppositions to such monuments to dictators, and instigators of a lot of bloodshed have won and want the record corrected accordingly, at least that seems to be the case of Spain (https://www.foxnews.com/world/dictator-francisco-franco-to-be-exhumed-on-thursday). In the US though descendants of those that suffered through a bloody war to decide whether the nation would continue the course of slavery or not, find great objection to the losing factions making heroes of those that wanted to continue the practice, and glorify that horror many endured.

Now that's very different from those actions of as you described terrorist zealots wiping out history I think, and I'm not ready to make those comparisons even though I have to agree that humans seem to have lost their frigging minds, especially in our own country Vac, or would you prefer V7?

I do see your point on the Confederate memorials. I imagine if I was black then I'd have a different point of view towards them. However, it just keeps the pot stirred and a little compromise here and there would be helpful. Taking down a statue does not improve the life of a single American by even a penny. New Orleans likes to trumpet the fact that they took down a rather large Confederate statue, and yet they still have one of the highest murder rates in the country. Maybe taking some steps that are more than just symbolic would be a good idea.

Maybe we could dig up some more world heros and put them on exhibiton or better still inter them in unmarked graves. But how do you decide who is a hero since all are infamous among their opponents? Hilter knew what he was doing when he settled for a quiet private death

I do see your point on the Confederate memorials. I imagine if I was black then I'd have a different point of view towards them. However, it just keeps the pot stirred and a little compromise here and there would be helpful. Taking down a statue does not improve the life of a single American by even a penny. New Orleans likes to trumpet the fact that they took down a rather large Confederate statue, and yet they still have one of the highest murder rates in the country. Maybe taking some steps that are more than just symbolic would be a good idea.

It's not just a monetary value one seeks through the struggle for a modicum of dignity and self respect and if that struggle takes years to bear fruit the is that not a compromise in of itself? Removing confederate statutes doesn't mean the struggle is over, just that a small step has been achieved and more pot stirring is needed, and maybe that the price to pay for a place at the table, or the right to be free, justice, and defining the American way that starts at equal protection under the law that extends to all.

For those in the struggle any struggle rally achieving even a small step is more than just symbolic and priceless.


Maybe we could dig up some more world heros and put them on exhibiton or better still inter them in unmarked graves. But how do you decide who is a hero since all are infamous among their opponents? Hilter knew what he was doing when he settled for a quiet private death

The process takes many years sometimes hopefully peacefully through the court process. Hitler saved a lot of time and hassle after causing all that death and destruction, unlike Khadafy, Mussolini, and Saddam. The peoples justice was much more swift and decisive.

Talaniman: You can call me V7, Vac, or just about anything you want to as long as you call me for supper.....especially if you got turnip greens, vinegar, and cornbread on the table!

Here is my view of it....and it may be a bit sideways or perverted, as my wife will tell you that most of viewpoint are: Why do you WANT to forget any of this ESPECIALLY if your on the other side of it? I mean, I'll never be a Negro but trying to put myself in their mindset, wouldn't you get more inspiration out of seeing the statues of those who were DEFEATED in the attempt to keep chains on you? My thoughts on the reasons for the Civil War no-withstanding (I believe it was a whole lot more to do with preventing SUCCESSION than it was freeing slaves), the South lost the Civil War (some parts it is called the War Of Northern Aggression) and their "homeland", so to speak, occupied by the victors.....and the free slaves were part of that victory: The Confederate monument certainly are not a "celebration" of victory but the mourning of loss and honoring dead soldiers. Like jlisenbe, I can't really come to terms with the Confederate monuments issue in a firm sense.

If you look at this issue from the perspective of the Jews, they have a totally different take on this than anyone, possibly anyone in the world: THE JEWS DO NOT WANT ANYONE TO EVER FORGET.....EVER! They do not want history whitewashed: They want you to remember the Holocaust with them and they don't any of the remnants, pictures, ANYTHING to ever be done away with, not ever. Is there a strategy there? Is there something to learn from the Jew about how they process and handle the Holocaust? PROBABLY! The state of Israel has parlayed what they endured at the hands of Hitler into a legitimate STATE in the M.E., with much support, particularly from the United States. And whenever anyone opposes any move they make in Israel or the M.E., the Jews are VERY QUICK TO EVOKE THE REMEMBRANCE OF THE HOLOCAUST......remembering the Holocaust has become a "justification", of sorts, for just about everything they do. I think there is something to be learned here.

Talaniman: You can call me V7, Vac, or just about anything you want to as long as you call me for supper.....especially if you got turnip greens, vinegar, and cornbread on the table!

Here is my view of it....and it may be a bit sideways or perverted, as my wife will tell you that most of viewpoint are: Why do you WANT to forget any of this ESPECIALLY if your on the other side of it? I mean, I'll never be a Negro but trying to put myself in their mindset, wouldn't you get more inspiration out of seeing the statues of those who were DEFEATED in the attempt to keep chains on you? My thoughts on the reasons for the Civil War no-withstanding (I believe it was a whole lot more to do with preventing SUCCESSION than it was freeing slaves), the South lost the Civil War (some parts it is called the War Of Northern Aggression) and their "homeland", so to speak, occupied by the victors.....and the free slaves were part of that victory: The Confederate monument certainly are not a "celebration" of victory but the mourning of loss and honoring dead soldiers. Like jlisenbe, I can't really come to terms with the Confederate monuments issue in a firm sense.

If you look at this issue from the perspective of the Jews, they have a totally different take on this than anyone, possibly anyone in the world: THE JEWS DO NOT WANT ANYONE TO EVER FORGET.....EVER! They do not want history whitewashed: They want you to remember the Holocaust with them and they don't any of the remnants, pictures, ANYTHING to ever be done away with, not ever. Is there a strategy there? Is there something to learn from the Jew about how they process and handle the Holocaust? PROBABLY! The state of Israel has parlayed what they endured at the hands of Hitler into a legitimate STATE in the M.E., with much support, particularly from the United States. And whenever anyone opposes any move they make in Israel or the M.E., the Jews are VERY QUICK TO EVOKE THE REMEMBRANCE OF THE HOLOCAUST......remembering the Holocaust has become a "justification", of sorts, for just about everything they do. I think there is something to be learned here.

Vac if your wife thinks your viewpoint is perverted maybe we don't want to hear it, but frankly, after listening to you maybe you should let her post

Yeah I can see the Jews tolerating the swastika and stautes of Hitler, or those that praise him as a hero, and some do.



Talaniman: You can call me V7, Vac, or just about anything you want to as long as you call me for supper.....especially if you got turnip greens, vinegar, and cornbread on the table!

I like mustard greens with smoked turkey leg meat falling off the bone with onions, to go with my cornbread. Any greens will do and we often mix them, and vinegar is a must.

Talaniman: Honestly, I hadn't thought of it in the terms you described.....that puts a different light on it, for sure!

If you like turnip greens, vinegar, and cornbread, you got to be all right!

Talaniman: You can call me V7, Vac, or just about anything you want to as long as you call me for supper.....especially if you got turnip greens, vinegar, and cornbread on the table!

That's as old as the hills, but still funny. It was unexpected.


I'll never be a Negro but ...

Negro? Did you really say NEGRO?


is called the War Of Northern Aggression

Fort Sumter?


the mourning of loss and honoring dead soldiers.

I think there's an argument to be made that those statues - all military as far as I know - are about "mourning the loss and honoring dead soldiers". Once visiting Antietam, I saw the soldiers from both sides in that battle buried in a common graveyard. I can also understand why African-Americans see it differently.


THE JEWS DO NOT WANT ANYONE TO EVER FORGET...

That's the same take the South has re their statues.


The state of Israel has parlayed what they endured at the hands of Hitler into a legitimate STATE

Don't dismiss the Balfour Declaration 40 years earlier.


remembering the Holocaust has become a "justification", of sorts, I think there is something to be learned here

Yes, there is something to be learned. Like don't allow genocide to take place like Trump is doing with the Kurds.

Athos: Yes, the War Of Northern Aggression is straight-up how the Civil War is referenced in Charleston, S.C.....almost everyone says it.

Same effect on me, as you had at Antietam, when I visited Gettysburg: You suddenly realize how unimportant any political slants are in the presence of such a "heavy", solemn place: Soldiers earned respect, regardless, of which side, because they "gave up everything they had and everything they were EVER going to have."

You know, the case of Israel is not that far dissimilar to that of the Kurds: Both experienced genocide (Kurds and Armenians), just that the Nazis were more efficient with the Jews, and both did not have a homeland, albeit the Jews do now.....similar "place" in history.....The Kurds, though, really don't have a "CHAMPION" to help them that I know about.

I think there's an argument to be made that those statues - all military as far as I know - are about "mourning the loss and honoring dead soldiers". Once visiting Antietam, I saw the soldiers from both sides in that battle buried in a common graveyard. I can also understand why African-Americans see it differently.

For once we basically agree. Haven't been to Antietam, but in the Vicksburg battlefield park many of the states have placed monuments to those who died in the battle. I'm sure the monuments would offend some people, but it still would seem to be a legitimate observation. The courage exhibited by both sides is worthy of notice and emulation. Perhaps we can learn from people that we don't necessarily agree with on all points.

Athos: Yes, the War Of Northern Aggression is straight-up how the Civil War is referenced in Charleston, S.C.....almost everyone says it.

Even the people of color and descendants of slaves? Or just the white majority? Perspective plays a huge part in the dialogue, and the south was hardly the victim. Southern NEGROES were. Both before and after the Civil War, and still struggling to this day (Okay even in the NORTH too), with a different kind of slavery.

For once we basically agree. Haven't been to Antietam, but in the Vicksburg battlefield park many of the states have placed monuments to those who died in the battle. I'm sure the monuments would offend some people, but it still would seem to be a legitimate observation. The courage exhibited by both sides is worthy of notice and emulation. Perhaps we can learn from people that we don't necessarily agree with on all points.

I have a lot of sympathy for the rank and file who shed blood, but not for the elites that lead them (In the South). (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_National_Memorial_for_Peace_and_Justice)



The names and dates of documented victims are engraved on the panels. More than 4075 documented lynchings of African Americans took place between 1877 and 1950, concentrated in 12 Southern states. In addition, the EJI has published supplementary information about lynchings in several states outside the South. The monument is the first major work in the nation to name and honor these victims.[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_National_Memorial_for_Peace_and_Justice#cite_n ote-10)

..The Kurds, though, really don't have a "CHAMPION" to help them that I know about.

They did until last week when idiot Trump abandoned them without a moment's notice. In just a few days, he has been responsible for 300,000 Kurds displaced. Only God knows how many will be slaughtered once the Turks move in when the "pause" ends today.

Are Vlad and Assad coming to be the NEW champion for the Kurds? The Turks might not like that.

Talaniman: As a Southern man, I am happy we have a UNITED STATES, and not a North and South States setup: Succession can't be tolerated.....nor the other stuff that went along with that temporary setup.

Yes, you are right, again: Its not Blacks saying "War Of Northern Aggression" in Charleston.

Recently, I heard that Blacks are, also, getting stupid about a "desire" to separate themselves into their "own" dorms and the like on college campuses.....I guess that they are free to do as they wish, ITS STILL THE LAND OF THE FREE, but, I believe, this is not a direction that they should take.

It's a very human thing for anyone to retreat to the safety of the tribe when a threat, percieved or real is looming. Doesn't take much for people to percieve a threat, one noghead will do that. Hanging a noose in a tree gets a reaction, or a swasika on someones dorm room door.

Nope doesn't take much at all.

Or students rioting and destroying public property in order to prevent freedom of speech.

That too JL, and conservatives are not the only ones targeted by such actions. Both overt and covert. Voter suppression comes to mind also.

Voter suppression comes to mind also.

You mean like when the Black Panthers were openly and plainly intimidating voters in Philadelphia in 2012, an action for which, of course, they were NOT held responsible by the Obama administration? It was a blatantly racist event, and yet nothing was done about it. I wonder why?

You mean like when the Black Panthers were openly and plainly intimidating voters in Philadelphia in 2012, an action for which, of course, they were NOT held responsible by the Obama administration? It was a blatantly racist event, and yet nothing was done about it. I wonder why?

Because, as usual, you got it completely wrong.

The 2012 incident in Philadelphia was manufactured by FOX News. ONE Black Panther was there who was an election official performing his official duties.

Investigators later reported that witness remarks said that he was pleasant and "easy to talk to".

There was NO intimidation, NO "blatant racism", nothing at all.

Wonder no more.

You mean like when the Black Panthers were openly and plainly intimidating voters in Philadelphia in 2012, an action for which, of course, they were NOT held responsible by the Obama administration? It was a blatantly racist event, and yet nothing was done about it. I wonder why?

No, I mean like the states like Texas that tried to keep black college students from voting on their Campus, or in Michigan where college students had to walk and catch buses to polling places, or Florida who purges the voting rolls or Georgia where minorities are purged by their governor. Or the southern states that close urban DMV's to prevent ID's by minorities and moving them to urban areas with restricted times to be open. Or the misinformed people like you who conflate NOTHING into a huge mountain as witnessed above.

That's the real kinds of voter suppression of minority voters going on that I meant.


Because, as usual, you got it completely wrong.

The 2012 incident in Philadelphia was manufactured by FOX News. ONE Black Panther was there who was an election official performing his official duties.

Investigators later reported that witness remarks said that he was pleasant and "easy to talk to".

There was NO intimidation, NO "blatant racism", nothing at all.

Wonder no more.

Well said.

Because, as usual, you got it completely wrong.

The 2012 incident in Philadelphia was manufactured by FOX News. ONE Black Panther was there who was an election official performing his official duties.

Investigators later reported that witness remarks said that he was pleasant and "easy to talk to".

There was NO intimidation, NO "blatant racism", nothing at all.

As usual, you are wrong. There were clearly two black panther members in the video, one carrying a night stick. The two of them claimed, on the video, to be "security" which was not true. One was asked to leave by the police and did so. The other was an election official, but was wandering around outside dressed up in Black Panther garb which seems pretty irregular. And last and probably least, the incident occurred in 2008 and not 2012. And yes, I got the date wrong as well.

No, I mean like the states like Texas that tried to keep black college students from voting on their Campus

That's an exaggeration for sure.


or in Michigan where college students had to walk and catch buses to polling places

What? They had to ride a bus to go vote? How terrible!!


Georgia where minorities are purged by their governor. 100% false allegation.


Or the southern states that close urban DMV's to prevent ID's by minorities and moving them to urban areas with restricted times to be open. I'd like to see evidence for that one.


Or the misinformed people like you who conflate NOTHING into a huge mountain as witnessed above. Blah, blah, blah.

As usual, you are wrong.

Good grief. You admit right here that YOU were wrong. I'll quote your words below.


And last and probably least, the incident occurred in 2008 and not 2012.

Geez, I'll say. AT LEAST. You are incredible. You admit you got the date wrong and you say I am wrong. I gave you the correct information that you posted about 2012. YOU WERE WRONG! PERIOD! FULL STOP!

Now you walk it back and find another different incident to whine about.

Simply amazing!


And yes, I got the date wrong as well.

Saints be praised! He admits it.

Geez, I'll say. AT LEAST. You are incredible. You admit you got the date wrong and you say I am wrong. I gave you the correct information that you posted about 2012. YOU WERE WRONG! PERIOD! FULL STOP!

This is your quote. "The 2012 incident in Philadelphia was manufactured by FOX News." Now I plainly stated we were both incorrect. That's how we are different. When I am wrong, I say it. You never think you are wrong. At any rate, I also said, "last and probably least". In other words, it was not a big deal. Get a little perspective for crying out loud.

But how about your statement that there was only one BP in the video? Your quote was, " ONE Black Panther was there who was an election official performing his official duties." Was that correct? How about them calling themselves "security"? How about one of them carrying a night stick? Hello??? If you still think you were correct, then watch this. Perhaps it will be the first time you've seen it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neGbKHyGuHU

When I saw the video back in the day I saw people both black and white going in and out about their business. Did I miss the intimidation part here? Or more loony right wing paranoid exaggeration and lies?

Clearly it was the latter in an attempt to create doubt and fear. The dufus and right wing tool of choice...LYING.

When I saw the video back in the day I saw people both black and white going in and out about their business. Did I miss the intimidation part here? Or more loony right wing paranoid exaggeration and lies?

Yeah. I see people dressed in the uniforms of extremist groups holding night sticks outside of polling places all the time. I'm sure it was all perfectly normal for Texas.

This is your quote. "The 2012 incident in Philadelphia was manufactured by FOX News."

Yes, that is my quote. Yes, the 2012 incident was manufactured by FOX News - specifically, Sean Hannity.


Now I plainly stated we were both incorrect.

On what basis do you plainly state I am incorrect?


That's how we are different. When I am wrong, I say it.

This is getting more and more bizarre. You have been wrong so many times without admitting it, it's astonishing. I give you absolute direct proof and you continue to deny the facts. I'm at a loss to explain you.


But how about your statement that there was only one BP in the video? Your quote was, " ONE Black Panther was there who was an election official performing his official duties." Was that correct?

YES, that was and is correct. If you had half a brain you would know that the incident I referenced has ONE Black Panther who was "pleasant". (I'm sorry to name call, but you are truly exasperating. Some days I spend half my afternoon trying to explain things to you so you will understand, but you steadfastly refuse.


How about them calling themselves "security"? How about one of them carrying a night stick? Hello???

Hello yourself. There was no night stick.


If you still think you were correct, then watch this. Perhaps it will be the first time you've seen it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neGbKHyGuHU

IT'S THE WRONG VIDEO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your first post was 2012. Now you're changing it to 2008. This is not the first time you have changed mid-stream.

Susse Jesu, Bleiben Sie Mir.

Bikers and young people in jeans and hoodies? You can carry an AR 15 in open carry states, but a guy with a stick is extreme? Geez guy you could at least be consistent.

IT'S THE WRONG VIDEO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your first post was 2012. Now you're changing it to 2008. This is not the first time you have changed mid-stream.

I stated hours ago that the video I referred to was in 2008. Remember how you practically wet your pants when I told you I had referenced the wrong date as being 2012 when it should have been 2008? And before you wet your pants again (might be too late on that), we are plainly referring to two separate incidents. Calm down.

In the 08 incident there were clearly two BP members, one of whom was holding a night stick. That was what I was referring to.

As to 2012, that was not simply a Fox News invention. This link shows that.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/nov/6/problems-black-panthers-surface-pa-polling-places/


YES, that was and is correct. If you had half a brain you would know that the incident I referenced has ONE Black Panther who was "pleasant". (I'm sorry to name call, but you are truly exasperating. Some days I spend half my afternoon trying to explain things to you so you will understand, but you steadfastly refuse.

I am tempted to return the name calling, but that would make me like you, and I don't intend for that to happen under any circumstances. If the explanations I read from you take half an afternoon to formulate, then you need a lot of intense therapy. Maybe WG can help you.

So what the House speaker of the state legislature in Pa. publicaly said voter ID laws were an attempt to help Romney beat Obama. (https://www.propublica.org/article/everything-youve-ever-wanted-to-know-about-voter-id-laws) Now what?

So what the House speaker of the state legislature in Pa. publicaly said voter ID laws were an attempt to help Romney beat Obama. Now what?

Now what? Now I want to kick myself for being hopeful enough to think that you might actually link an article that is worth looking at. So you link an article that is several pages long and was written in 2016, and then want to act as though the PA guy said something of great interest just in the past few days, and that's assuming I want to take the time to pick through all the clutter to find it? That's why I don't like to take your links. They are useless nine times out of ten.

Well you BP video was pretty old too!

we are plainly referring to two separate incidents.

Took you long enough to figure that out. Without my help, you would still be in the wrong election.


As to 2012, that was not simply a Fox News invention. This link shows that.

That link shows nothing. Hannity started it. A team headed by an ex-Seal followed up and reported there was nothing to Hannity's rumor. But it was too late. By then the entire loony right-wing (you included) was running the false rumor.


I am tempted to return the name calling

Tempted? You do it more than anyone and then complain when others do it.

Right before posting this, I went back and read your exchange with Wondergirl. Your lack of understanding expressed in that back-and-forth was beyond weird. Her explanations (supported by Tal) were crystal clear and you couldn't grasp them and even misconstrued them to a bizarre degree.

I honestly believe you have been affected by Trump and how he gaslights on a daily basis. You are doing exactly what he does - and it's so obvious that I wonder about all the Trump supporters.

Tempted? You do it more than anyone and then complain when others do it.

Right before posting this, I went back and read your exchange with Wondergirl. Your lack of understanding expressed in that back-and-forth was beyond weird. Her explanations (supported by Tal) were crystal clear and you couldn't grasp them and even misconstrued them to a bizarre degree.

I honestly believe you have been affected by Trump and how he gaslights on a daily basis. You are doing exactly what he does - and it's so obvious that I wonder about all the Trump supporters.

And, of course, all of that is true because you think it is. Oh well.


Took you long enough to figure that out. Without my help, you would still be in the wrong election

Just to show that your claim is your usual fake garbage, this is the first notice of the date problem in this thread and it was posted by me. "And last and probably least, the incident occurred in 2008 and not 2012. And yes, I got the date wrong as well."

So who put who in the right election???

Calm down.

I don't suffer fools calmly.

Learning to control you own emotions is a valuable asset. Learning not to blame your outbursts on someone else is even better.

Learning to control you own emotions is a valuable asset. Learning not to blame your outbursts on someone else is even better.

I have to say it, are you not aware there are more important things going on in the world than getting in touch with yourself. stop being so self obscessed and realise there are riots in Chile, in Hong Kong, there are protest rallies all over the world, people are upset and they are blaming their outbursts on someoneelse

I have to say it, are you not aware there are more important things going on in the world than getting in touch with yourself. stop being so self obscessed and realise there are riots in Chile, in Hong Kong, there are protest rallies all over the world, people are upset and they are blaming their outbursts on someoneelse

?????

Clete isn't a student of American political history, like when you start interjecting the gospel scripture into political stuff and change the forum topic for me.

Clete isn't a student of American political history, like when you start interjecting the gospel scripture into political stuff and change the forum topic for me.

I may be a liitle more a student of your nation's past than you might like, however, this contemporary crap gets my goat. As to the Gospel, Tal, don't see much reference to the US there, as for Scripture, well, The whore of Babylon might fit. What seems to be missing is the idea that God's system and that operating in the world, and in particular in the US, are two very different things.

As well they should be as living with billions of humans is bound to be tricky even if they followed the same religion or the same secular laws.

Paraclete: If you are saying the U.S. is "off the path of righteousness," I don't think any thinking person, left or Right, could disagree with you: We are becoming Sodom AND Gomorrah! I attribute this derailment to our straying from NATURAL LAW and THE LAWS OF NATURE: If something is not found in nature, it shouldn't be synthetically created to appease the masses. I try to leave the religious aspects out of the clinical discussion, to each their own in that regards: The guideposts for what is RIGHT and WRONG are self-evident and need no delineation....they should come to the consciousness of every living soul as naturally as the unconscious reaction of blinking.

Paraclete: If you are saying the U.S. is "off the path of righteousness," I don't think any thinking person, left or Right, could disagree with you: We are becoming Sodom AND Gomorrah! I attribute this derailment to our straying from NATURAL LAW and THE LAWS OF NATURE: If something is not found in nature, it shouldn't be synthetically created to appease the masses. I try to leave the religious aspects out of the clinical discussion, to each their own in that regards: The guideposts for what is RIGHT and WRONG are self-evident and need no delineation....they should come to the consciousness of every living soul as naturally as the unconscious reaction of blinking.

You wish it were so, but then, if it were so we would not have need of a savior would we?

Paraclete: You know it.....that cannot be refuted or denied in any way.

I see the events as just the very bumpy road of progress. If we don't blow the world up, or it gets blown up outside of our influence, then we do have a real chance to get better at living with this reality.

Paraclete: If you are saying the U.S. is "off the path of righteousness," I don't think any thinking person, left or Right, could disagree with you: We are becoming Sodom AND Gomorrah! I attribute this derailment to our straying from NATURAL LAW and THE LAWS OF NATURE: If something is not found in nature, it shouldn't be synthetically created to appease the masses. I try to leave the religious aspects out of the clinical discussion, to each their own in that regards: The guideposts for what is RIGHT and WRONG are self-evident and need no delineation....they should come to the consciousness of every living soul as naturally as the unconscious reaction of blinking.

The challenge is to define "the path of righteousness." You refer to "the laws of nature." Well, the law of nature is for the strong to dominate the weak. That is seen in all of nature. Nature is not a kind place, it is a harsh place. Is that the law you want us to follow?

You also say, "the guideposts for what is right and wrong are self-evident and need no delineation." That is a questionable statement. It is true in some respects but not in others.

Outside of a belief in a transcendent God, there is no foundation for morality. It just becomes a situation where the majority gets to rule, or at least to determine what is right and wrong. Morality is not meant to be a popularity contest.

Clete's reference to a Savior is exactly correct.

Be nice if we can avoid a war over what the majority wants, and what the minority wants. Hope we have come that far up the evolutionary ladder at least.

jlisenbe: A a Christian man, you know the score: God's hand is control of all things. Man is part of nature as God created everything in nature. God's (fill in the blank for those who may have other religions but the "concept" of God is independent) hand is behind and in control of everything in nature as it is in our lives. You think NATURE is cruel? Its not, it proceeds on a NATURAL TRAJECTORY DEFINED BY GOD...to say that nature is cruel is to say that God is cruel, and we know that is not true. MAN, on the other hand, IS ABSOLUTELY AND EXTREMELY CRUEL: You don't find organized warfare, torture, slavery, or a thousand other proclivities exacted by man anywhere else in nature: MAN has a corner on cruelty not found in nature.

The guideposts in life are well established, and I mean well before our time: Do not the 10 Commandments made these boundaries abundantly clear? The extrapolation of right and wrong in the "human" species is different with respect to our thinking capacities being above those of mere "dumb" animals: Right and Wrong are clear-cut.....where Right and Wrong become less clear is in man's consistent and unrelenting pursuit to skate around and avoid the commitments required in DOING THE RIGHT THING! Right from Wrong is clearly defined, MAN wants the definition to be murky so he can get away with doing WRONG and justify his actions: ITS THAT SIMPLE.

To your point about morality not being a popularity contest: 100% CORRECT! Majority Rule is a common practice and has been since time immortal....it doesn't always mean the majority is RIGHT.....and majority rule doesn't mean that the minority doesn't have rights: such a rights have been guaranteed by man in certain "terms", such as those guaranteed in the U.S. Constitution and, in general, this concept of rights is particularly true in the U.S. where this system is more highly refined: But never forget: RIGHT and WRONG are concepts not of man but of God and are clearly marked in nature.

To Talaniman's point: We have evolved up the ladder....but, every now and then, one or two of the rungs on the ladder break and we DEVOLVE back into our most detestable forms: Humans are problematic wherever they exist.

.to say that nature is cruel is to say that God is cruel, and we know that is not true.

In a fallen world, such as we live in, cruelty abounds. I wonder how many times a day one animal kills another? It is no reflection on God. It is a reflection on the introduction of sin and suffering into the world.


Do not the 10 Commandments made these boundaries abundantly clear?


But that is religion, not natural law and certainly not the law of nature.


Right and Wrong are clear-cut.....where Right and Wrong become less clear is in man's consistent and unrelenting pursuit to skate around and avoid the commitments required in DOING THE RIGHT THING!

But there's the rub. Who gets to decide what is "right" and "wrong" in a secular society? Simple answer. In most cases, it's the guys with the most power. In democracies it can come down to a beauty contest, but even at that, the people with the most power oftentimes prevail.


We have evolved up the ladder.

We have? There were more people killed in war and genocide in the 20th century than it the previous 19 centuries COMBINED! The direction is down the ladder, not up. Only in the influence of the Christian faith do we see progress up the ladder.

SPAIN HAS BECOME A LAND OF COWARDS AND IDIOTS! You can't run away from your past....your past will show you the way forward....it doesn't matter if the past is good or bad...it only matters that you learn from it!

SPAIN HAS BECOME A LAND OF COWARDS AND IDIOTS! You can't run away from your past....your past will show you the way forward....it doesn't matter if the past is good or bad...it only matters that you learn from it!

Don't be too hard on them, very few fallen empires rise again, I expect a defeatest attitude sets in. In a Thousand years what will we think of you?

Paraclete: Had relatives on my Mother's side, in Spain, that thought Franco was the savior of Spain....and now they want to vanquish his memory.

They feel the same about ole Jeff Davis in the south. Just curious though Vac, why this dictator was such a hero to your peeps? I guess as was here that heroes depended on whatever side you supported in the struggle for whatever it was.

Talaniman: This all goes back to the Spanish Civil War and Franco's initial resistance to the Republicans.....these relatives were in the city of Toledo (yes, same spelling as the one in Ohio) and it was a Republican held town....conditions were horrible for those living there.....Franco and the Nationalist took aim at taking this town....Story is that when Franco's Nationalist captured the town, this is where he announced he was "Generalissimo".....that day, Franco became a larger than life figure, a shining star on the hill....my relatives always took this event as the cementing of their love for Franco because living conditions immediately got better under the Nationalists/Fascists. I guess you could say that they hooked-up their cart to the Fascist horse and stayed with it...they were just really loyal.....I always heard from my Grandmother: "Franco saved Spain from the Comunistas!"...."When Franco was in charge, you could leave your doors unlocked...it was safe!"

And I was taught other things, as well: Spain's wealth was largely in gold reserves before the Revolution....but the Government, comprised of Republicans, shipped/ferried this reserve to the Soviet Union for "safe-keeping" during the Revolution......of course, when the Fascist won the war, NONE of the gold was ever returned.

Thanks Vac, I was just a bit curious as I've heard and seen several similar stories of communities and people being uplifted and helped, by hard cold men who ruled with an iron cruel fist against their "enemies". Hard not to idolize one that gives bread for your table, or keeps the trains running on time, no matter what else he does.

Does any of this ring true? (https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/31z2ca/why_did_the_allies_allow_franco_to_remain_in/)

Talaniman: You got it in how you described it: therein lies the grand PARADOX......similar to the dastardly fire ants: Yes, they suck, and I hate them, but as long as they are around my house I won't have termites...PICK YOUR POISON!

Franco got over on Mussolini and Hitler by asking for material help, taking their assistance, and then Mussolini's troops, also, and then not getting Spain embroiled in the AXIS effort: In the end, Franco was a true NATIONALIST (loved Spain first and the Fascist cause/philosophy a distant second).

In the end, Franco was a true NATIONALIST (loved Spain first and the Fascist cause/philosophy a distant second).

Now you have a similar "true nationalist" in your neck of the woods, will it end with your country bankrupt

https://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fals-totem.s3.amazonaws.com%2Femailimages%2F10025%2FCIV IC-182.gif&t=1572042210&ymreqid=ca515d41-7b2e-4cce-1c8b-b80001015c00&sig=jXmqM7HvPVui_a8nnMpn_Q--~C (https://go.civicaction.com/page/m/46025e91/374102fd/3f352da0/11ea2442/554359782/VEsE/?g=lNxhMGV4ADlYlXxdOOfJng)

And for the 90th time, the top 20% of income earners pay about 85% of fed income tax. The bottom 50% pay about 3%.

Paraclete: No, I don't think Trump will bankrupt the nation: Something very, very "unnatural" is happening in the U.S. right now: Senate and Congress have totally abdicated their REAL JOBS, the jobs we hired them to do, and ceded just about all power to the Executive Branch....How this has come to pass has been overt as well as subtle: Congress and Senate are spending every waking hour pursuing either an "Investigation" of some description or trying to defend against an investigation of some description.....meanwhile, the Executive Branch has been going about pursuing whatever his calendar and agenda calls for: The American Public sees this and, to a large extent, view Senate and Congress as "DO NOTHINGS" while the POTUS enjoys media coverage with all the events he is involved with and is seen as "actively conducting his business".

When it is all said and done, Trump may be known as a great POTUS for business and economy but not much else. In years past, the economy was "Joe Six Pack's" primary concern.....not so sure if that is still true.

Congress and Senate are spending every waking hour pursuing either an "Investigation" of some description or trying to defend against an investigation of some description.

Not true. The Democrats have passed 8 or 9 bills on various non-impeachment topics but not a single one has gotten past the REPUBLICANS AND Moscow Mitch.


the POTUS enjoys media coverage with all the events he is involved with and is seen as "actively conducting his business".

What planet are you referring to? You DO have a way of going off the far edge.


Trump may be known as a great POTUS for business and economy but not much else.

After three years, Trump is known as a great nitwit. His business acumen turned out to be a joke. His self-proclaimed genius for trade/tariffs is damaging the US economy and negatively effecting the world economy.

Athos: When I say that the Congress and Senate are not getting their jobs done, I mean in total, not discerning who is blacking who, the NET EFFECT is a big fat ZERO as far as helping the American people. In the past, people have rarely gotten into the weeds about who did what, they just blame the whole bunch.

What I mean when I say Trump enjoys media coverage: Trump is a student of McCarthy's lawyer, Roy Cohn, who said that ANY media coverage is a positive because as you occupy time, the opposition has less time: still only 24 hours in a day. Trump if gallivanting all over the world, working out deals with the Chinese, talking to North Koreans, visiting Black Colleges, making statements in the White House driveway....those kind of things: He is getting coverage and looking "Presidential"....and I know many would contest that but he is getting more "refined" at it.

As far as the trade embargos: Trump is breaking the Chinese: They are paying more for the grains they are getting from others...they are in a more tenuous position than we are.....Trump is bending the Chinese's knees.....its hardball.....Trump just doesn't care about the world economy....his calculus doesn't take any other country into consideration.

Athos: Not supporting Trump! Just calling it like I see it.

Athos: Not supporting Trump! Just calling it like I see it.

Fine to call it like you see it, but you're seeing it all wrong.


When I say that the Congress and Senate are not getting their jobs done, I mean in total, not discerning who is blacking who, the NET EFFECT is a big fat ZERO as far as helping the American people.

By citing the TOTAL effect, you are completely missing the cogent point. To wit: The Dems are doing their job, but the Repubs are blocking them at every juncture. That's kind of important to say that, don'cha think?


Trump is a student of McCarthy's lawyer, Roy Cohn, who said that ANY media coverage is a positive because as you occupy time, the opposition has less time

Roy Cohn is A) wrong, and B) the lowest snake in the grass to ever slither.


He is getting coverage and looking "Presidential"..

He is looking nothing of the sort. He is looking like a spoiled child. His own people have called him an "effin' moron". He can't hold an appointee to stay with him - so many have left - cabinet level on down. His national security advisers last about a month before bailing because of Trump's idiocy. If you can't see his pathetic narcissism, I worry about you seeing him as "presidential".


The Chinese are paying more for the grains they are getting from others...And American farmers are going bankrupt!


Trump just doesn't care about the world economy..

How incredibly shortsighted is this policy. I hope you don't support it. I can't imagine a government where the president doesn't care about the world economy. The whole world is interdependent on a smooth world economy. Here is another area where Trump is ruining whatever he touches - the opposite of a Midas touch.