In the Catholic religion, its called "The Mystery Of Faith".....it simply means that you follow, whether you understand it or not, whether you know the absolute solution or not......you follow to the end of no ends.

The context for this idea seemed to be that only the faithful can get to heaven. For all others it's the wrong choice with its "absolute finality". Not sure what you mean by that.

But since you mention the Catholic Church, I thought I'd bring you up to date. Catholicism teaches that non-Catholics who lead good lives according to their lights and an informed conscience can get to heaven. I believe that's generally the mainstream Protestant understanding also.

As to Marxists/Bolsheviks not going to heaven because they are atheists, there is a Marxist movement that has God. It's called Liberation Theology founded by the Jesuits in South America..

In Islam, they are forbidden to judge anyone as being in heaven or hell. I heard that from a Muslim who seemed knowledgeable.

Athos: Great points, as usual! By "finality" I mean that if you die, without accepting Jesus, there really is no more/the end of the road is upon you.

I do find it hard to accept Marxist could be anything but Atheist: Marx discussed the treachery of religion in the Manifesto, didn't he, and he is the Granddaddy of Marxism.

Look, I know that way back when, Islam recognized Christianity, so there is a begrudging acknowledgement: They even admit that Jesus existed! Just don't know enough about what you say, so I will have to take your word for it.

Against my better judgement, I will do as you ask this one time. I do it because it is the crux of the matter. On post #232 on Sep 25 at 7:15am, you wrote, "Those who do not have faith will be judged as they are still in their sins. They will spend eternity in hell."

That is the same statement I've been making since this conversation started months ago. Nice try but no cigar for you.

The requirements I was referring to trace back to a question you asked months ago and which you have been pursuing off and on since then such as when you posted just a few days ago, "Do you, or do you not, believe that anyone who does not believe in Jesus will spend eternity in hell suffering punishment for all time? This includes babies and children and people who never heard of Jesus. Your answer, please." It was originally something to the effect of posting a single scripture verse or passage that stated that unbelievers would perish in hell for all of eternity.


Yes, really. But you'll never know because you don't like wild goose chases. I think you once said you would not click on links. Your loss.

As a matter of fact, I do. You could know too with some intelligent searching.

Yes. You know so much that you can't post a single fact. Like I said, I'm convinced you don't have a clue. There is no need to post a link. You could simply make a statement. "I believe that because blah, blah, blah." When you don't do that, it makes it appear that you can't. And that's where I'm fine to leave the whole thing. All the rest is just fluff. You asked for scriptures that show that those without faith in Christ go to hell. I gave them to you. You have to decide for yourself what you believe.


Mentally unable is a new one. You're getting there.

I've said that before. It's not new.

The one thing you seem reluctant to do is to state your own beliefs. What do you think happens to those who die without faith in Christ? For that matter, where is your faith? Have you accepted the Savior? Other than yourself, and as you stated earlier your brain's ability to make judgments, what/who do you believe in?

well in order to receive your healing you have to claim it not deny it
No stem cells in my future. Am too old. The annual transfusions work well. My hematologist is on top of things!

No stem cells in my future. Am too old. The annual transfusions work well. My hematologist is on top of things!

Very sorry to hear of your struggle.

Very sorry to hear of your struggle.
Thank you. No struggle. God is with me. Plus, I'm having a great meeting and talking with and interacting with many very faith-centered medical workers in non-religious settings at clinics, labs, the hospital.

Your attitude and strength has always been a source of hope and inspiration WG. Good luck and my prayers always my very good friend.

W.G.: I had no idea.....No wonder you seem so strong....because you are! And now I know the historical frame for your name....and, it fits, too, by the way!

People like you, who face so much, make people like me feel small: If ever I face the same type of challenges you do, I hope, no PRAY, that I can summon the kind of courage you have and not become a sniveling pile of goo. I am already a horrible patient when I even catch a cold or flu and, according to my wife, the biggest baby you ever saw.....hate being sick.

I am happy God is with you and you with Him because you are secured and blessed.

W.G.: I had no idea.....No wonder you seem so strong....because you are! And now I know the historical frame for your name....and, it fits, too, by the way!
My WG name is because of my years working in public libraries -- always being challenged by patrons' reference questions (wondering what they REALLY wanted to know) and later challenged by the Dewey Decimal system when I was a cataloger.

Athos: Great points, as usual! By "finality" I mean that if you die, without accepting Jesus, there really is no more/the end of the road is upon you.

Ok, thank you clearing that up. Your compadre JL believes that you go on suffering eternal punishment in hell (if you die without accepting Jesus). That is the basis of my disagreement with him.


I do find it hard to accept Marxist could be anything but Atheist: Marx discussed the treachery of religion in the Manifesto, didn't he, and he is the Granddaddy of Marxism.

Yes, Marx was anti-religion. But that was a very small part of his philosophy. He mainly commented on the economic systems of the world. Many of his ideas are now considered main stream.



Look, I know that way back when, Islam recognized Christianity, so there is a begrudging acknowledgement: They even admit that Jesus existed!

Islam considers Jesus a prophet, not God. Both the Jews and the Muslims deny Christianity is monotheistic because they believe the Trinity is three gods.

That is the same statement I've been making since this conversation started months ago. Nice try but no cigar for you.

Yes, and it proves my point that you believe unbelievers go to hell where they are eternally punished. Your words are "...the unfaithful will spend eternity in hell". It couldn't be any clearer. In fact, I even gave the exact location where you said it. ?????!!!!!!!?????!!!!!!!!!!!


You posted just a few days ago, "Do you, or do you not, believe that anyone who does not believe in Jesus will spend eternity in hell suffering punishment for all time? This includes babies and children and people who never heard of Jesus. Your answer, please."

YES, again. Your answer, AGAIN, "...the unfaithful will spend eternity in hell". You make the statement and then you retract the statement. You sound like Donald Trump.


Yes. You know so much that you can't post a single fact. Like I said, I'm convinced you don't have a clue.

Flattery will get you nowhere.


And that's where I'm fine to leave the whole thing.

With your admission that unbelievers go to hell, I'm fine with that, too, and have been since you first admitted it after my challenge when you initially skated around it. But you keep coming back and seem to deny it. You first said they weren't your words, but God's words, so I should argue with God. If you believe what you consider God's words, then my argument has always been with you.


The one thing you seem reluctant to do is to state your own beliefs.

My own beliefs are my own and the only belief I need to share here is the one opposed to your belief that unbelievers go to hell for eternal punishment.


What do you think happens to those who die without faith in Christ?

I have no idea what happens to them. Neither do you.


For that matter, where is your faith? Have you accepted the Savior? Other than yourself, and as you stated earlier your brain's ability to make judgments, what/who do you believe in?

My beliefs are not your concern. It is easy to see you'd like to find out what they are and then find a reason to attack them, maybe even sending me to hell. I think you'd like that.

Athos: The belief by Hebrews and Muslims that Christianity is not Monotheistic is, I think, a hard separation in the Christian mind, particularly the Catholic one: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (the Holy Trinity) are greatly accepted as the "parts" of the same entity.....sort of like most in the U.S. view Congress-Senate-Executive as "The Federal Government" (I always view these things in terms of affinities of what is similar)…...few distinguish the three when thinking about it, in general.

YES, again. Your answer, AGAIN, "...the unfaithful will spend eternity in hell". You make the statement and then you retract the statement. You sound like Donald Trump.

It is not simply my answer. It is the Bible's answer. It's what I have consistently said from the beginning, so I'm not sure why you sound so surprised.


My own beliefs are my own and the only belief I need to share here is the one opposed to your belief that unbelievers go to hell for eternal punishment.

So you can post what you oppose, but are afraid to post what you support. Interesting. Shouldn't you have the courage to state your beliefs?



I have no idea what happens to them. Neither do you.

Fascinating that you claim to have no knowledge of what happens to them. If you are completely ignorant of their future, then how would you know my understanding of Scripture is wrong? Just because you don't know anything at all about it doesn't mean other people are as equally lacking in knowledge. Considering the importance of the subject, don't you think you need to learn?

My beliefs are based on the Bible. I get the idea that you consider it to be just another book while I consider it to be THE book. I asked if you had faith in Jesus and you declined to answer and have declined to state any belief you do have. I think that is unfortunate. Now you are free to believe as you wish, and I don't want to sound as though I'm ridiculing that because I'm not. I look forward to listening to all points of view expressed on this board, but you are not prepared to share yours. Rather than oppose a certain perspective, wouldn't it be better to advance your own?

You do need to consider the claims of Christ. You think you are having a disagreement with me, but have you considered that it might go a lot deeper than that?

Athos: The belief by Hebrews and Muslims that Christianity is not Monotheistic is, I think, a hard separation in the Christian mind, particularly the Catholic one: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (the Holy Trinity) are greatly accepted as the "parts" of the same entity.....sort of like most in the U.S. view Congress-Senate-Executive as "The Federal Government" (I always view these things in terms of affinities of what is similar)…...few distinguish the three when thinking about it, in general.

What you write is true of CHRISTIANS! It is NOT true of any other religion, each one believing that Christianity is polytheistic.

It is not simply my answer. It is the Bible's answer. It's what I have consistently said from the beginning, so I'm not sure why you sound so surprised.

It is also your answer. Stop with the semantics, please. Nobody is fooled.


So you can post what you oppose, but are afraid to post what you support.

Not afraid at all. As I said, my beliefs are my own. What do you care, anyway? Do you have an agenda? Probably, yes.


Fascinating that you claim to have no knowledge of what happens to them.

Not fascinating. It's the truth. I don't know, and neither do you.


If you are completely ignorant of their future, then how would you know my understanding of Scripture is wrong?

Simple, it's too bizarre and you have misinterpreted the idea. The real question for you is WHY? Why a misinterpretation.


Just because you don't know anything at all about it doesn't mean other people are as equally lacking in knowledge.

Of course, it does. NOBODY - read my lips - knows what happens after death. Anybody that says they know is wacky.


Considering the importance of the subject, don't you think you need to learn?

An unknowable subject carries little or no importance and therefore does not need to be learned. An analogy is a law that is not enforced. Is there therefore a law at all? That's a philosophical approach since a religious approach, for reasons stated, doesn't work. You could read Camus - he's dealt with this question. Interesting question. The first one you've asked.


My beliefs are based on the Bible.

Yes, I know. It's a very good book to base one's belief on.


I get the idea that you consider it to be just another book while I consider it to be THE book.

Hmm, you need to be a little clearer here. I wouldn't call it "just another book", that denigrates it, somehow. I already said it is a very good book.


I asked if you had faith in Jesus and you declined to answer and have declined to state any belief you do have.

See above. Already answered.


I think that is unfortunate.

I don't.


Now you are free to believe as you wish

Thank you.


, and I don't want to sound as though I'm ridiculing that because I'm not. I look forward to listening to all points of view expressed on this board, but you are not prepared to share yours.

You don't come across as ridiculing my belief. How could you? I haven't given it. I am fully prepared to share my point of view when I deem the time proper for such sharing. To be honest, your strange belief (my opinion) re unbelievers and hell is not an encouragement for me to want to hear the rest of your beliefs because they are already tainted by your hell belief.



You do need to consider the claims of Christ. You think you are having a disagreement with me, but have you considered that it might go a lot deeper than that?

No, I don't think my disagreement goes any deeper than you and have not considered it. My understanding of Christ is what it is. I doubt anything you say would change it.

OK. Your approach to all of this is a bit puzzling, though I'm glad your position has become apparent. You claim to know nothing about the fate of unbelievers. You say you don't know what will happen and yet, amazingly, you can tell what WON'T happen. You believe that since you are completely ignorant on the subject then everyone else must be as well. You lack the courage to outline your own beliefs, and you've made, I guess, a no-call on Jesus. You are full of negatives and completely lacking on positives. I've made it plain where I stand, so I guess we've about said it all.

You know I have no idea what christian beliefs have to do with this OP

You know I have no idea what christian beliefs have to do with this OP

Nothing! Interesting though. Doesn't change the fact the dufus is a crook and stealing OUR money and stuffing it in his own pocket.

You know I have no idea what christian beliefs have to do with this OP

I agree. I'm an offender. It will soon be over because I'm getting really tired of it. In any case, it should move to the Religion board for those interested.

OK. Your approach to all of this is a bit puzzling, though I'm glad your position has become apparent. You claim to know nothing about the fate of unbelievers. You say you don't know what will happen and yet, amazingly, you can tell what WON'T happen.

Will you PLEASE stop with the word games? You know exactly what I mean.


You believe that since you are completely ignorant on the subject then everyone else must be as well.

WRONG AGAIN!! You're making a habit of being wrong. My not knowing has nothing to do with anyone else. Again, your logic fails you. My not knowing derives from the fact that no one has ever offered evidence of a life after death, much less one spent being tormented in hell. The examples in religious scriptures are matters of faith, not science.


You lack the courage to outline your own beliefs, and you've made, I guess, a no-call on Jesus. You are full of negatives and completely lacking on positives.

Whenever you lose an argument, you revert to ad hominems. The clear mark of a failure. I have made no call (without the hyphen) except to derive you of the pleasure of criticizing whatever belief I may have. Look in a mirror - you are hardly Mr. Positive.


I've made it plain where I stand,

Yes, you've made it plain after I had to drag it out of you. Even tho your belief is bizarre, hiding it is that lack of courage coming back at you. Be careful of accusations - especially projections.

You know exactly what I mean.

Yes, I do. I really do. And now I finally know at least some of what you believe. You don't believe in an afterlife since science has not proven it and you consider the Bible to be outside of the realm of what could fairly be called knowledge. Fair enough, but if you don't believe in the Bible, and if your only appeal is to what you consider science to be, then why do you endlessly argue about what the Bible says? Why not just say you don't care what the Bible says? And why would you care if someone else believes in the Bible and in judgement for sin? If I didn't believe in the Bible, then I'm not sure why I would care what other people believed as long as it didn't influence me.

Well, we have talked this to death. I have a position based on Scripture. Jesus, the one who was raised from the dead, said repeatedly there was an afterlife and a judgement to come. That's good enough for me. You don't like it. We can leave it there.

Yes, I do. I really do. What I don't know is what you actually believe. You lack the courage to say so.

Here's what I believe for the umpteenth time: Your belief that unbelievers go to hell for eternal punishment is A) complete nonsense, B) not supported by scripture which I have proven to you many times now but you refuse to believe, C) you are a victim of what is called Biblolatry, the worship of the Bible in place of God. OK? got it? This is not something people decide as adults - it's too bizarre. People are taught this from an early age when their powers of discernment are nil. Sadly, that is why it tends to get passed along.


If you don't believe in the Bible, and if your only appeal is to what you consider science to be,

This is completely false, and you know it. I've hesitated to tell you what I think of you out of courtesy, but this comment of yours relieves of my self-imposed restraints. YOU ARE A LIAR!


Why not just say you don't care what the Bible says? You, I guess, have no belief on the matter.

My belief on the matter has been stated again and again as clearly as possible. Your refusal to see it is your problem, not mine. Your pernicious belief is deeply rooted in your psychology, not in any scripture.

I can think of nothing more negative than condemning a poor old lady who never heard of Jesus Christ to an eternity of torture and punishment in hell. That, my friend, is YOUR belief!

Here's what I believe for the umpteenth time: Your belief that unbelievers go to hell for eternal punishment is A) complete nonsense, B) not supported by scripture which I have proven to you many times now but you refuse to believe, C) you are a victim of what is called Biblolatry, the worship of the Bible in place of God. OK? got it? This is not something people decide as adults - it's too bizarre. People are taught this from an early age when their powers of discernment are nil. Sadly, that is why it tends to get passed along.


This was your statement. " My not knowing derives from the fact that no one has ever offered evidence of a life after death, much less one spent being tormented in hell. The examples in religious scriptures are matters of faith, not science." Sure sounds like an appeal to science and not the Bible. As to evidence of life after death, I'm not sure if you consider the statements of Jesus to be evidence or not, but He spoke of it constantly, including the reality of a fiery hell and a throne of judgement, and of course His own resurrection would be the ultimate validation. Now you have to decide if you believe what he said or not, but that's up to you. I am a believer.


This is completely false, and you know it. I've hesitated to tell you what I think of you out of courtesy, but this comment of yours relieves of my self-imposed restraints. YOU ARE A LIAR!

That made me laugh, coming as it did from you. Your anger really needs some help, but I'll leave that to you. Honestly, being called a liar by you is a real compliment. As the old saying goes, "Just consider the source."

This was your statement. " My not knowing derives from the fact that no one has ever offered evidence of a life after death, much less one spent being tormented in hell. The examples in religious scriptures are matters of faith, not science." Sure sounds li................................................ ..............am a believer.

I repeat, YOU ARE A LIAR! Besides that, your belief is as sick as a belief can get. To claim Jesus said anything remotely like it is blasphemy. To attribute to God the things that are of the devil doesn't bode well for your soul. Even so, I don't condemn you to eternal punishment in hell - as you would condemn all those good people everywhere who do not believe the way you do.

I'm done with you.

I'm done with you.

You were done a long time ago. You just didn't realize it. Nonetheless, I wish you well.

As to what Jesus said, " 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
Muslim, agnostic, atheist, Christian, Jew, Jain, Hindu, et al. -- "whatever you did for one of the least of these..., you did it for me."

Athos is correct.

Muslim, agnostic, atheist, Christian, Jew, Jain, Hindu, et al. -- "whatever you did for one of the least of these..., you did it for me."

Athos is correct.

Unless, of course, you don't pay any attention to Acts 4:12. "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved." The name they are proclaiming is clearly the name of Jesus.

The question you are ignoring is this. How does a person become righteous? Now if you have read the first three chapters of Romans, then you know that only through faith in Christ does a person become righteous. The point in what Jesus said is that those who have placed their faith in Him will bear the fruit of good works, but it is the faith that comes first. You're a Lutheran and you don't know that? Luther is turning over in his grave!!

So no, Athos is far from correct.

Answer an honest question. Are you trusting in your good works to be right with God? Or if someone comes to you and asks how to be right with God, what do you tell them? I know you guys are terribly reluctant to answer questions, but I really wish you would answer those two.

Nope, not good works. Good works are our thank-you notes to God.

Jesus didn't say that; Peter did.

Nope, not good works. Good works are our thank-you notes to God.


So you are saved through faith in Christ?

What would you tell the person asking you how to be right with God?


Jesus didn't say that; Peter did.

Jesus didn't say what?

I don't get it. If Jesus is the way to eternal life, then how do you justify not helping the least of us? Is there a pick who you help option on that or what? I would really like to know.

I don't get it. If Jesus is the way to eternal life, then how do you justify not helping the least of us? Is there a pick who you help option on that or what? I would really like to know.

I don't justify it. I believe that I should help the poor with my money and I do so, so I don't get your meaning. Now do I believe that I should be able to force someone else to help them with his/her money? No.

I hope WG will answer my questions.

Personal relationships with God are just that: personal. There really is no need to argue about faith. As with most everything in nature, someone is right and someone is wrong, there normally is no "between"....trying to walk the knife's edge of "between" is a cowardly negotiation.....as long as you are secure in what you believe, then you should go with it and not consider what those around you think: IT'S YOUR SOUL WE ARE TALKING ABOUT and there can be nothing more important.....and, so, why argue about it? The main reason arguments about religion arise is that those who are pro or con in a belief system begin to lose confidence and the whisper of doubt begins to creep into their minds. A confident person feels no need to voice anything because what you believe is inside of you, right now. This personal relationship is entirely yours...no crowd of people should push you toward something of which you aren't certain.

Its a scary thing to go through life with strong beliefs, one way or the other, and have something come along and shakeup that belief system and make you confront your beliefs: looking in the mirror at 4 AM and its just you fighting with yourself, that is one terrible battle because its your conscious and there is no escape, and you know right from wrong. Its never happened to me but losing faith has to be cataclysmic....I have seen it happen to others where their world turns upside down and it usually results in a reevaluation of one's life or behaviors in light of this: in effect, it can be life changing. And this is often about the subject of religion....but not always.....it could be about your "faith" in your mate, until you find your mate to be "unfaithful".....or it could be about your adopted political stripe, until you realize you disagree with the positions or decisions that your group takes.

All of this discussion about the Bible and beliefs make me think of a song, sung by the group "Blood, Sweat, and Tears" called "And When I Die".....in that song, a line always struck me as being so pointed, so abruptly sharp, and so true when it says "I Can Swear There Ain't No Heaven And I PRAY There Ain't No Hell"......this line always reminds me that you have to very sure of the choices you make in this life....because when you leave, there is no coming back to correct the mistakes you committed while living....you own those mistakes.

Believing in Natural Laws and The Laws of Nature has served me well but nothing takes the place of my personal relationship with God.

A confident person feels no need to voice anything because what you believe is inside of you, right now.

I think the Apostle Paul would not agree with that statement. Still, I think I understand your point, but it should be added that our beliefs need to line up with the truth.

I think the Apostle Paul would not agree with that statement. Still, I think I understand your point, but it should be added that our beliefs need to line up with the truth.
As Pilate asked, "What is truth?"

jlisenbe: There is only ONE truth.....you know it, I know it, and God knows it. God said it, that's that....and it doesn't matter if you believe it or not.

As Pilate asked, "What is truth?"

Jesus said He was the Truth.

Would you answer one question. What do you tell someone who comes to you and wants to be right with God. What would your counsel be?


jlisenbe: There is only ONE truth.....you know it, I know it, and God knows it. God said it, that's that....and it doesn't matter if you believe it or not.

True. Our belief, or lack of belief, does not effect what is true.

Would you answer one question. What do you tell someone who comes to you and wants to be right with God. What would your counsel be?
Throughout my long life as a Christian, no one has ever asked me that. That's not the right question.

OK. Suppose they say to you that they are not a Christian but want to become one. They want to have their sins forgiven and have a home in heaven. They ask you how they can do that. What do you say?

OK. Suppose they say to you that they are not a Christian but want to become one. They want to have their sins forgiven and have a home in heaven. They ask you how they can do that. What do you say?
That's not what they ask.

It's basically what the Phillipian jailer asked. "What must I do to be saved?" What would you have told him? Please don't dodge the question.

Are you serious that no one ever comes into your church and asks how to become a Christian???

I don't get it. If Jesus is the way to eternal life, then how do you justify not helping the least of us? Is there a pick who you help option on that or what? I would really like to know.

You would like to know? is that because you seek salvation? or is it just you seek to argue? I echo the many statements made here, we are all in need of salvation and it is found only in Jesus. Christians are the only ones who offer salvation, not by works, but by faith, and all it takes is to acknowledge Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, so if you have not faith, ask Jesus for it, and I would pray for you reveal Jesus to him Lord

I echo the many statements made here, we are all in need of salvation and it is found only in Jesus. Christians are the only ones who offer salvation, not by works, but by faith, and all it takes is to acknowledge Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, so if you have not faith, ask Jesus for it, and I would pray for you reveal Jesus to him Lord

Well said.

Paraclete: VERY well said! Captures it all "not by deeds but by faith"....nails it!

My question wasn't answered, and I am not looking for conversion, or salvation, just understanding to restore faith, and TRUST in my fellow man flawed as we all are. Thus my question of can you pick and choose who of the least you must help? Or for that matter what is Caesars? Obviously some have their own guidance on the matter and I suppose they are good with it, as the obligation to help anyone is a huge obligation, and there is a great need. Not to argue, but discuss that in the practical terms of ones obligations, since I have a hard time wrapping my head around some of the stuff that's preached, and our very human interpretation that produces action. The least of us is a very profound call to action, and it would seem that actions that go against that would be the definition of sin, and against what we observed to be taught in many teachings.

Would not putting our earthly opinions before those teaching also contradict the tenants of those teachings? While I get having strong opinions, even a strong faith, but is religion really worth arguing about as Vac7 so aptly expressed.



Believing in Natural Laws and The Laws of Nature has served me well but nothing takes the place of my personal relationship with God.


That hits me as profound and that is the way to truth and understanding beyond the dogma, culture, and tradition of any and all religion. So no, not to argue with any about faith, salvation, or any of that stuff, Clete, but returning to the topic of the forum, which has once again been hijacked by Christian conflict over scripture interpretation, which is NOTHING without that aforementioned personal relationship with a God that YOU understand.

Of course the flaw in any human undertaking is in just being human, and whatever action we take, no matter the actions of a Caesar. I guess the point is, I choose not to follow a Caesar, nor fret about what he takes. I don't knw where my soul is going when the body ceases function, but you can choose your own heaven or hell NOW!

I also choose not to follow a lying, cheating, dufus bully whose words, actions, and antics go against everything a good human would do in my humble opinion.

My question wasn't answered, and I am not looking for conversion, or salvation, just understanding to restore faith, and TRUST in my fellow man flawed as we all are. Thus my question of can you pick and choose who of the least you must help? Or for that matter what is Caesars? Obviously some have their own guidance on the matter and I suppose they are good with it, as the obligation to help anyone is a huge obligation, and there is a great need. Not to argue, but discuss that in the practical terms of ones obligations, since I have a hard time wrapping my head around some of the stuff that's preached, and our very human interpretation that produces action. The least of us is a very profound call to action, and it would seem that actions that go against that would be the definition of sin, and against what we observed to be taught in many teachings.

The Matthew 25 passage you are referring to is a passage about personal responsibility. So you, Tal, and I will be judged, not for what we tried to politically force others to do, but for what we did ourselves. I'm not sure what else you are referring to. You mention that "actions that go against that would be the definition of sin." OK, that would be true, but I just don't know what actions you are referring to. Are these actions of yours, or of others, or both?


That hits me as profound and that is the way to truth and understanding beyond the dogma, culture, and tradition of any and all religion.

But when you say that, you are acknowledging that there is such a thing as "truth". That means that we all cannot have our own, personal truth anymore than we can have many correct answers to a basic math problem. You cannot evaluate truth claims just on the basis of how you feel about it or how reasonable it might seem to you. So if you genuinely arrive at the truth, and if I genuinely arrive at the truth, then we will find that we are in agreement with each other. There cannot be multiple truths. Even more importantly, those religious dogmas you referred to are all attempts to state what they consider the truth to be. For Christians, truth must line up with the clear teaching of scripture.

Talaniman: A very evil man said something very true: "If there is a man, there is a problem."...that describes the base issue, as you alluded to: Humans twist, turn, and foul-up just about everything they touch or, even, express an interpretation of material once that material is read.

MAN IS A MESS!

The Matthew 25 passage you are referring to is a passage about personal responsibility. So you, Tal, and I will be judged, not for what we tried to politically force others to do, but for what we did ourselves. I'm not sure what else you are referring to. You mention that "actions that go against that would be the definition of sin." OK, that would be true, but I just don't know what actions you are referring to. Are these actions of yours, or of others, or both?

The words, actions, and antics the dufus does in OUR name which has been contrary to the teachings of Christians in a so called Christian nation that even run contrary to laws, specifically those steeped in cruelty to the least of us, stirred by fear and hate. Not only does it make a mockery of the god decent thing to do for the least of us, it crosses the lines of good orderly direction of which I cannot abide and just wonder how any good so called Christian could.


But when you say that, you are acknowledging that there is such a thing as "truth". That means that we all cannot have our own, personal truth anymore than we can have many correct answers to a basic math problem. You cannot evaluate truth claims just on the basis of how you feel about it or how reasonable it might seem to you. So if you genuinely arrive at the truth, and if I genuinely arrive at the truth, then we will find that we are in agreement with each other. There cannot be multiple truths. Even more importantly, those religious dogmas you referred to are all attempts to state what they consider the truth to be. For Christians, truth must line up with the clear teaching of scripture.

Doesn't that bring us back to the simple truth of what your scripture says about how to treat the least of us? Guide me please to show me the exception that allow for cruelty and condemnation from any of us to the least of us. Your scriptures seem to be quite clear on this and calls for just the opposite in what we are doing, and doesn't that count for something?

If one can turn their back on their own scripture, then why would one be credible in the truth whatever it may really be, or even others to follow in that example?

It's basically what the Phillipian jailer asked. "What must I do to be saved?" What would you have told him? Please don't dodge the question.
Bible story. Second-hand report. Teaching moment, the writer decided.

Are you serious that no one ever comes into your church and asks how to become a Christian???
Nope. That's not the question.

The Matthew 25 passage you are referring to is a passage about personal responsibility. So you, Tal, and I will be judged, not for what we tried to politically force others to do, but for what we did ourselves. I'm not sure what else you are referring to. You mention that "actions that go against that would be the definition of sin." OK, that would be true, but I just don't know what actions you are referring to. Are these actions of yours, or of others, or both?



But when you say that, you are acknowledging that there is such a thing as "truth". That means that we all cannot have our own, personal truth anymore than we can have many correct answers to a basic math problem. You cannot evaluate truth claims just on the basis of how you feel about it or how reasonable it might seem to you. So if you genuinely arrive at the truth, and if I genuinely arrive at the truth, then we will find that we are in agreement with each other. There cannot be multiple truths. Even more importantly, those religious dogmas you referred to are all attempts to state what they consider the truth to be. For Christians, truth must line up with the clear teaching of scripture.


Keep in mind everything that this guy says comes from someone who believes that a harmless old lady who doesn't believe in his brand of Christianity is destined to eternal torture in hell. I didn't make that up, he did.

So, take everything he says with a ton of salt.

Doesn't that bring us back to the simple truth of what your scripture says about how to treat the least of us? Guide me please to show me the exception that allow for cruelty and condemnation from any of us to the least of us. Your scriptures seem to be quite clear on this and calls for just the opposite in what we are doing, and doesn't that count for something?

I have never suggested we should be cruel to anyone. As is sometimes the case, I have no idea what you are talking about.

Bible story. Second-hand report. Teaching moment, the writer decided.

What an innovative dodge to the question. So it's merely a Bible story and a "second hand report" from the book of Acts, and therefore not to be seriously considered? Really?



Are you serious that no one ever comes into your church and asks how to become a Christian???
Nope. That's not the question.

So your church has no interest in helping people to become Christians? Strange.

What an innovative dodge to the question. So it's merely a Bible story and a "second hand report" from the book of Acts, and therefore not to be seriously considered? Really?
You must not have delved into the goings on, the culture, the mindset of that time.

So your church has no interest in helping people to become Christians? Strange.
That's not the question.

I have never suggested we should be cruel to anyone. As is sometimes the case, I have no idea what you are talking about.


Let me remind you - "Unbelievers spend eternity in punishment in hell". Your belief.

I have never suggested we should be cruel to anyone. As is sometimes the case, I have no idea what you are talking about.

Of course you do, as we have discussed before the cruelty on our southern border that good Christians ignore, dismiss, or worst of all condones. I simply want the rationale that YOUR bible, allows such a thing.

You must not have delved into the goings on, the culture, the mindset of that time.

Oh good grief. How weak. You are basically saying the Bible is utterly untrustworthy. Why do you even bother to read it?


So your church has no interest in helping people to become Christians? Strange.
That's not the question.

It's the one you are afraid to answer. I had forgotten how you are so evasive.



Of course you do, as we have discussed before the cruelty on our southern border that good Christians ignore, dismiss, or worst of all condones. I simply want the rationale that YOUR bible, allows such a thing.

If you are saying I have said we should be cruel to people, then you are lying. I've never said that. Not trying to be rude, but I will not put up with that level of slander.

I will not put up with that level of slander.

A statement is not slander when it's true.

What an innovative dodge to the question. So it's merely a Bible story and a "second hand report" from the book of Acts, and therefore not to be seriously considered? Really?

Everyone thinks their writings is the word of God, but why would anyone else take the word of flawed men for such a claim? Indeed is not the writings of ancient man by definition a second hand account? How can it be otherwise since they're dead?


So your church has no interest in helping people to become Christians? Strange.

I think we have discussed before all the variations of one religion, so is this, but another examples of those divisions? In addition if one "church" has another truth that doesn't match another churches "truth", then how does anyone know who has the one truth?

Or does it really matter which church you belong too if they are all Christian churches? How would one know which is the truth?

Oh good grief. How weak. You are basically saying the Bible is utterly untrustworthy. Why do you even bother to read it?
I wish you'd have some curiosity about stuff.

It's the one you are afraid to answer. I had forgotten how you are so evasive.
The ball is in YOUR court, sweetie.

If you are saying I have said we should be cruel to people, then you are lying. I've never said that. Not trying to be rude, but I will not put up with that level of slander.
Tal's right. Yes, you said that.

I wish you'd have some curiosity about stuff.

I have great curiosity, but have no desire to live in foggy land.


The ball is in YOUR court, sweetie.

I have no idea what you are talking about, but if you have a question, I assure you I will answer it with no evasiveness. I hope to be a good example to you. If you mean suggesting people become a Christian, I do it constantly as Jesus said we should in that famous, second-hand quote from Matthew which, in your world, seems to be of dubious value.


Tal's right. Yes, you said that.

Any statement to the effect that I have said we should be cruel to people is an absolute lie. If you are sure of yourself, then you could, of course, post the quote, but you won't since it's not out there. And again, I don't mean to be rude, but that kind of outrageous slander is too much.

Of course you do, as we have discussed before the cruelty on our southern border that good Christians ignore, dismiss, or worst of all condones. I simply want the rationale that YOUR bible, allows such a thing.

What say you?

What say you?

About a quote from YOU??? That's all you've got? You'll have to do a lot better than that.

Your entire approach on the southern border is just a swipe at Trump. You have done, so far as I know, not a single thing to help those people.

I do not condone cruelty on any level. You are fine with the excessively cruel destruction of human life with abortion. What say you about that?

But one thing I do like about you, Tal. You are not afraid to take a position on issues of the day and you are not afraid to answer simple questions or state what you believe.

I have great curiosity, but have no desire to live in foggy land.
"No edicaton for me, tanks."

I have no idea what you are talking about, but if you have a question, I assure you I will answer it with no evasiveness. I hope to be a good example to you. If you mean suggesting people become a Christian, I do it constantly as Jesus said we should in that famous, second-hand quote from Matthew which, in your world, seems to be of dubious value.
And that's the wrong way to go about it. BIG turnoff!

Any statement to the effect that I have said we should be cruel to people is an absolute lie. If you are sure of yourself, then you could, of course, post the quote, but you won't since it's not out there. And again, I don't mean to be rude, but that kind of outrageous slander is too much.
I have been Swedish death-cleaning this afternoon. Will take a break and find it in a while.

And that's the wrong way to go about it. BIG turnoff!

When we baptize men at the Drug Rehab center, we'll baptize a dozen. Must be working. When was the last time you led a soul to faith in Christ?


I have been Swedish death-cleaning this afternoon. Will take a break and find it in a while.

I'll wait patiently.

When we baptize men at the Drug Rehab center, we'll baptize a dozen. Must be working. When was the last time you led a soul to faith in Christ?
I'm working with a trans woman right now.

I'll wait patiently.
Awwwwww!

I'm working with a trans woman right now.

To lead her to repentance and faith in Christ? If so, then wonderful and good for you

To lead her to repentance and faith in Christ? If so, then wonderful and good for you
Hmmmmm, what's your understanding of transgender? Maybe I should start a new thread somewhere.

Hmmmmm, what's your understanding of transgender? Maybe I should start a new thread somewhere.

I really wonder what your understanding of the gospel is.

I really wonder what your understanding of the gospel is.
You're saying transgender folks are going to hell?

You're saying transgender folks are going to hell?

I simply said that person needs to repent. That is true of every sinner who comes to Christ. There is no other route. I mean repent in the sense that I was going my own way, but now I am going to go God's way. I am going to follow Jesus.

I simply said that person needs to repent. That is true of every sinner who comes to Christ. There is no other route. I mean repent in the sense that I was going my own way, but now I am going to go God's way. I am going to follow Jesus.
She doesn't need a sermon. She needs unconditional love.

She doesn't need a sermon. She needs unconditional love.

It's fine to build friendship and trust and to love people. In fact, it's essential and I applaud you for it, but to treat the gospel as nothing more than a "sermon" is a sad reflection on your estimation of the gospel message.

It's fine to build friendship and trust and to love people. In fact, it's essential and I applaud you for it, but to treat the gospel as nothing more than a "sermon" is a sad reflection on your estimation of the gospel message.

and the unconditional love she needs is to be introduced to Jesus, just as everyone has the same need

and the unconditional love she needs is to be introduced to Jesus, just as everyone has the same need
Not yet.

Not yet.

Who are you to decide this? I recall a time where I led a Buddist to Jesus, he was open but my pastor was incensed because he was going to meet with him some days hence and claim the scalp. You don't know when a person may pass away, they may not have the time for your build up

I recall a time where I led a Buddist to Jesus, he was open but my pastor was incensed because he was going to meet with him some days hence and claim the scalp.

I love it when you fundies talk like this. Sure doesn't make coming to Jesus very appealing.


You don't know when a person may pass away, they may not have the time for your build up

That's ok. No harm done.

I love it when you fundies talk like this. Sure doesn't make coming to Jesus very appealing.

.

It really has nothing to do with Jesus, what it has to do with is love and our willingness to share

It really has nothing to do with Jesus, what it has to do with is love and our willingness to share
That's the entire reason we witness!

It really has nothing to do with Jesus

It has everything to do with Jesus. If we do not tell people about the one who came to "to give his life as a ransom for many," then we have been as unloving as we can possibly be.

It has everything to do with Jesus. If we do not tell people about the one who came to "to give his life as a ransom for many," then we have been as unloving as we can possibly be.
OMG! I agree with you!!!!

OMG! I agree with you!!!!

It's a miracle!! We both need to stop posting immediately. We've reached the pinnacle.

It's a miracle!! We both need to stop posting immediately. We've reached the pinnacle.
No, no, no! This is the beginning!

I have been Swedish death-cleaning this afternoon.

I missed this earlier. What is a "Swedish death-cleaning"?

I missed this earlier. What is a "Swedish death-cleaning"?
Look it up, please.

Oh, all right.

In Swedish, the exercise is döstädning — a combination of the word “dö” (which means death) and “standing” (which means cleaning), author Magnussen explains in her book. “Death cleaning is not about dusting or mopping up; it is about a permanent form of organization that makes your everyday life run more smoothly,” she explains.

A method of downsizing employed by minimalists?

A method of downsizing employed by minimalists?
Yes. I'm old. I don't want debris from my 74 years overwhelming my Asperger's husband and Asperger's son, if I die first. All is being explained to them. Neat files have been correctly labeled. Am busy daily with this project.

Yes. I'm old. I don't want debris from my 74 years overwhelming my Asperger's husband and Asperger's son, if I die first. All is being explained to them. Neat files have been correctly labeled. Am busy daily with this project.

How strange that we think alike in more ways than one might have thought. I am getting rid of clutter as well so my wife would not have to deal with it if it turns out that way. We had to clear out my parents' large basement several months ago and it was not fun having to just throw away so much stuff.

Wow, I have been dealing with the same issues the last few years, cleaning out a lifetime of stuff after my parents deaths, that was physically and EMOTIONALLY profound and taxing. It ain't at all easy and now doing it for the wife and I, hopefully saving my kids from going through the same thing. That's not easy either. Kind of amazing we're going through the same issues undoubtably related to our ages and sense of responsibility that comes with aging.

Again WG, just your sharing and attitude is truly inspiring and I know JL agrees with me on this. That alone is a sign of hope. Thanks my friend for pulling me forward as you always seem to. You're a strong tough cookie for sure.

8)


How strange that we think alike in more ways than one might have thought. I am getting rid of clutter as well so my wife would not have to deal with it if it turns out that way. We had to clear out my parents' large basement several months ago and it was not fun having to just throw away so much stuff.

No it ain't no fun since all that stuff has a story and strong memories, but you know it has to go. I feel ya my friend.

How strange that we think alike in more ways than one might have thought. I am getting rid of clutter as well so my wife would not have to deal with it if it turns out that way. We had to clear out my parents' large basement several months ago and it was not fun having to just throw away so much stuff.
We brought into our house Jeremy's stuff -- writing and art, furniture, clothes, comics collection, books, kitchen things, etc. scattered around in our small living room. Have been dealing with that since May 4, 2018.

Wow, I have been dealing with the same issues the last few years, cleaning out a lifetime of stuff after my parents deaths, that was physically and EMOTIONALLY profound and taxing. It ain't at all easy and now doing it for the wife and I, hopefully saving my kids from going through the same thing. That's not easy either. Kind of amazing we're going through the same issues undoubtably related to our ages and sense of responsibility that comes with aging.

It is very difficult. You want to keep it all but you can't. In the case of the stuff in the basement, so much had molded that there wasn't much to do with it but throw it away, and I mean a LOT of it. I could just imagine my mother standing there with a disapproving look in her eye. We threw away probably two hundred books. WG would have had a fit, but it was all moldy and smelly. Oh well.


We brought into our house Jeremy's stuff

I'm sorry to have to ask this, but who was Jeremy?

I'm sorry to have to ask this, but who was Jeremy?
Our younger son.

I sent you a PM. Otherwise, tmi on the board

Well, gang, I know you'll think I am just chiming-in....but, I know what you are going through: I, too, am cleaning out my current home of all unnecessary items....particularly the two different attics, the garage, all the bedrooms, and, worst of all, my 32 years of Engineering files! The files are the killer! I have to go through them draw by drawer and folder by folder and page by page: utterly excruciating! I am blind at the end of each bout with doing this...and it is a fight with MYSELF! I don't want to throw any of it but I must....so I have to scan through them and make sure they aren't relevant in some sort of way! There are three 20" X 48" file "lockers" and five four drawer filing cabinets and untold banker boxes of files. My wife and I are downsizing and moving to another state.

Vac, I can imagine it is really tough. I experienced somewhat the same thing when I retired from education.

Well aren't we all just one big happy family now!!

Well, gang, I know you'll think I am just chiming-in....but, I know what you are going through: I, too, am cleaning out my current home of all unnecessary items....particularly the two different attics, the garage, all the bedrooms, and, worst of all, my 32 years of Engineering files! The files are the killer! I have to go through them draw by drawer and folder by folder and page by page: utterly excruciating! I am blind at the end of each bout with doing this...and it is a fight with MYSELF! I don't want to throw any of it but I must....so I have to scan through them and make sure they aren't relevant in some sort of way! There are three 20" X 48" file "lockers" and five four drawer filing cabinets and untold banker boxes of files. My wife and I are downsizing and moving to another state.

be practical, if you haven't used it in the last couple of years then it might be time to throw it away, buy a shredder and do it in small chunks because you might have an emotional attachment

Paraclete: Oh, so you're the guy whose been telling my wife this approach! What you said is exactly what she has been telling me the last 3 months! And, I finally got the shredder and I am doing it in "chunks" as you say. And you are so correct in the part about emotional attachment, too, albeit to a darn bunch of documents! I grab a bunch and end up reading a report from way back when I was 20 something, before the world got so heavy when I truly believed all things were possible, and it just makes it so hard to get rid of it.....but there are no Time Machines, we have to move forward.....Growing up is hell on a man.....I don't think I made it there until I was 40.

Paraclete: Oh, so you're the guy whose been telling my wife this approach! What you said is exactly what she has been telling me the last 3 months! And, I finally got the shredder and I am doing it in "chunks" as you say. And you are so correct in the part about emotional attachment, too, albeit to a darn bunch of documents! I grab a bunch and end up reading a report from way back when I was 20 something, before the world got so heavy when I truly believed all things were possible, and it just makes it so hard to get rid of it.....but there are no Time Machines, we have to move forward.....Growing up is hell on a man.....I don't think I made it there until I was 40.

Hey man bin there done that, and still more to do, these are chunks of your life, may only mean something to you and I suggest a big bon fire

Paraclete: Excellent idea....I can feel weight lifting off my shoulders with the volume I've done so far....I'll end up weighing in the negatives by the time I'm through!

My wife and I are downsizing and moving to another state.

Sounds like retirement. Go for it! You earned it after 32 years. How old are you?

Come to Mississippi!!

Paraclete & jlisenbe: It will be a while before I retire....too many kids and too many bad investments along the way....and, I think I would drive my wife as insane as I am if we were in constant contact with one another!

I am 54...won't be too long before I turn 55.

Love Mississippi: Been all over that state! Especially around Laurel & Hattiesburg as well as Monticello, Sandy Hook, New Augusta, Meridian, Vicksburg, Natchez, and a lot up around Iuka and Corinth....Great state! Oh, and Grenada! But I live in S.E. S.C. and I am moving to N.E. Florida.

If you aren't retiring then is this a career move, 2nd job type thing?

Talaniman: No, just a move inside the company I work for, changing a position.