After Trump's calling Baltimore's district a rodent and rat infested mess. The Baltimore Sun replied;

"[W]e would tell the most dishonest man to ever occupy the Oval Office, the mocker of war heroes, the gleeful grabber of women’s private parts, the serial bankrupter of businesses, the useful idiot of Vladimir Putin and the guy who insisted there are 'good people' among murderous neo-Nazis that he’s still not fooling most Americans into believing he’s even slightly competent in his current post."

The Sun left out a few things, but otherwise the paper covered it nicely.

After Trump's calling Baltimore's district a rodent and rat infested mess. The Baltimore Sun replied;

"[W]e would tell the most dishonest man to ever occupy the Oval Office, the mocker of war heroes, the gleeful grabber of women’s private parts, the serial bankrupter of businesses, the useful idiot of Vladimir Putin and the guy who insisted there are 'good people' among murderous neo-Nazis that he’s still not fooling most Americans into believing he’s even slightly competent in his current post."

The Sun left out a few things, but otherwise the paper covered it nicely.

In earlier days that would be treason or at the very least sedition

I guess when Bolshevik Bernie said the same thing all was cool. The fact is that Elijah Cummings should be ashamed of conditions in the district he represents . But the truth is that he stopped representing them years ago to persue a national agenda.

btw ;anyone complaining about Republican gerrymandering should see this district map of the permanant incumbent Cummings .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryland%27s_7th_congressional_district

Didn't the dude say he would fix the American carnage that ravishes our cities? Must be like his other promises like drain the swamp, and Mexico would pay for the wall etc etc. What a terrible combination for a president, lying, cheating, stealing, bad mouthing and a bully, that's untrustworthy on top of all that. What you think dems districts are any worse than repub districts? The poorest places in the country are full of dufus supporters and they still are as poor as they were before, so are those congressmen being called out by the dufus. Of course not.

It's really simple, the dufus and his buddies make out like bandits, ordinary Americans get ignored. I thought the prez was for every body not just his rich friends and family.

Pointing out that Baltimore is one of the worst run cities in America, rife with crime and plagued by poor living conditions, isn’t racist. It’s evident to anyone with two eyes .

delete

Pointing out that Baltimore is one of the worst run cities in America, rife with crime and plagued by poor living conditions, isn’t racist. It’s evident to anyone with two eyes .

That's not what Trump said. He said "rat infested, rodent infested, and not fit for any human being to live there".

The human beings living there are African-Americans. According to Trump, they are not human beings. If you don't see Trump's comments as racist, you're blind.

He said "rat infested, rodent infested, and not fit for any human being to live there". He's not wrong about that except that Baltimore is not alone . He could've picked 3 or 4 other Democrat run cities where rat infestation is worse ;like NYC or Chi-town .

He's not wrong about that except that Baltimore is not alone . He could've picked 3 or 4 other Democrat run cities where rat infestation is worse ;like NYC or Chi-town .
No rats and vermin in republican cities?

here are the 25 worse :

Chi town #1
https://www.thrillist.com/news/nation/us-cities-with-rat-problems-ranked-orkin

here are the 25 worse :
Don't get too haughty. NYC is #3.

There are many nice slums to live in all across the world

The attack on Cummings and Baltimore isn't about anything but retaliation over the lambasting of the border patrol handling of its immigrant facilities in a hearing last week. It worked pretty good since we are talking about what he wants and taken the southern border out of the conversation.

Obviously he misunderstands what the phrase the buck stops here means. He is the president of the nation and has no clue how to solve problems, and sinks to fear hate and division to rally his troops to get elected so he doesn't get arrested.

NYC is run by another Democrat overseer of the Democrat plantation. They don't like criticism so they shout "racist " from the highest mountain while doing everything possible to avoid actually addressing the issues ;the unintended consequences of their policies . The fact is that conditions at border detention facilities are better than much of Cummings' district .

https://video.foxnews.com/v/6064589298001/#sp=show-clips

20,000 cities in America. no doubt they all have a bad part of town, but no excuse for what the dufus tweets as a distraction to bad news and incompetence. No squalid conditions in Ohio, or any repub controlled stronghold he could have commented on, but then he would have had to call out the white representatives in those cities too.

We know that's not going to happen. The dufus chose to make this personal about one person, instead of the nationwide issue it is, and has been for a while. Did you want a list of the poorest places in America? A lot worse off than Baltimore, and in repub gerrymandered districts. Let's tell the whole story instead of just the parts to make a tribal narrative.

He picked Cummings because he opened his mouth about the border detention centers. NY City is also rat infested and it is run by a white commie . So this is not about race . But that is the last refuge for the indefensible record of failure Dems have running cities . Here is how it is about race though. The African American voting block continues to vote in these failures year after year . There is no accounting and Reps like Cummings take his constituency for granted .

https://www.baltimoresun.com/education/bs-md-nations-report-card-20180409-story.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/12/magazine/baltimore-tragedy-crime.html

https://www.baltimoresun.com/opinion/editorial/bs-ed-0410-trash-clean-up-20190409-story.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhbxLZycZwE

I can understand the dufus being mad when black faces call him out on his crap. I mean he is above the law, so tell the great orange dude to send some of that loot he throws around so easily to him and his friends to the hood and maybe he gets a vote. Until then screw the racist president for the neutral color.

Pretty obvious Tom, minorities ain't going for his crap and yes the dem agenda is becoming the diverse agenda. Clean air, clean water, clean energy, education and health care. You let me know when repubs want to address those things. The party of old white guys has stolen the money and hollered security and family values, and fiscal responsibility a long time, and all that's a LIE!

PS

The dufus can be impeached in 2022 if we have too so no hurry.

PSS

You could have been a rich defense lawyer if you wanted too.

I'm wondering if Trump has tired of being the president. There are so many things he can't do, e.g., can't drive and can't roam alone at will. Perhaps he has deliberately become his own "worst enemy" for reelection.

Maybe he has always been his own worst enemy in his limited world. He might just be dissapointed more people don;t cater to his demand and put him on a pedestal he thinks he deserves. Doesn't matter really, the question is can he get re elected doing it his way? He can resign if he is tired of the position as far as I'm concerned. I will do whatever I can to make him a one term president!Or a convicted criminal with a perp walk he deserves.

Whichever comes first!

The slum landlord for those rat infested, vermin, not fit for human habitation apartments is a Trump family member who charges illegal fees and evicts tenants who don't pay these fees!

Dopey Donald is clueless.

Folks, you can't make this stuff up!!

I can understand the dufus being mad when black faces call him out on his crap. Nah he attacks all his opponents regardless of race …….
Bernie Sanders: crazy Bernie ,Elizabeth Warren: total fraudJustin Amash: loserRobert DeNiro: low IQJoe Biden: low IQBrit Hume: dope, know nothingHarry Reid : dumb as a rock Rex Tillerson : incompetentMitt Romney: Alec Baldwin: mediocre,
Jeb Bush: low energy, Adam Schiff: pencil neck ,
Rosie O’Donnell;
Meryl Streep Overrated just to name a few

You missed Bone-spur Donald.

This would be comical if Trump weren't such a border-line nutcase with his finger on the trigger.

Donald won't push the trigger unless the other fellow fires first, brinkmanship is his negotiating tactic

Donald won't push the trigger unless the other fellow fires first, brinkmanship is his negotiating tactic

That assumes Donald is sane.

That assumes Donald is sane.

I assume nothing

Cummings is just another corrupt Dem . His wife Maya Rockeymoore runs the Center for Global Policy Solutions, a nonprofit organization .Maryland Attorney General Brian Frosh has been asked to investigate the relationship between the non-profit with Global Policy Solutions LLC. ;a for profit corp also run by Rockeymoore . Both entities share address, phone number, projects, funding sources, and have a cost-sharing arrangement . According to the complaint, Global Policy Solutions and the Center for Global Policy Solutions appeared to have overlapping operations, and the arrangement may have been used to derive “illegal private benefit.” A previous complaint asked the IRS to investigate the “shared leadership,” “integrated operations,” and “shared address and physical facilities” of her two companies.

The foundation came under scrutiny earlier this year after it was reported that the foundation had accepted millions of dollars from corporations and special interest groups with business before the Cummings led House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform.

I'm sure you will report back when that investigation is over Tom, and maybe you will find out who the slum lords are in Baltimore that don't take care of their rat infestation.

Oh I know what is being reported .I dont know the conditions of the Kushner holdings . All I know is that the pictures I've seen are taken in Cummings ' district ;and Kushner owns no properties in Cummings' district . I don't know what the conditions of the apartments were when they were purchased ;nor how much money has been spent on capital improvements . I do know that his buildings had code 200 violations .I also know that except 9 of them ,the violations were repaired .
Me ? I wouldn't bother owning properties where rents are supported by HUD .I'd be looking to knock them down and build condominiums .

I dont know the conditions of the Kushner holdings.

You can google, can't you?



Me ? I wouldn't bother owning properties where rents are supported by HUD .I'd be looking to knock them down and build condominiums .

There has never been any doubt that you care nothing for the less fortunate. Your love is for profits. Didn't your mother ever tell you about loving your neighbor? Did she say love your profits?

You can google, can't you? yes and what I saw is no where's near the dilapidation in Cummings' district . When I "googled " I found that Kushner had dealt with almost all of the violations .


There has never been any doubt that you care nothing for the less fortunate. Your love is for profits. Didn't your mother ever tell you about loving your neighbor? Did she say love your profits? leave my mother out of it . There is no reward in being a landlord in those homes . Property gets destroyed . If a tenet doesn't pay rent no biggie . But if he uses the law to evict he is a greedy evil slum lord. Why do the people who live there not take pride in their community ? My ancestors did not have anything when they came here and lived in inner city housing . Still homes were kept clean to a point where they would sweep the sidewalk in front of their homes themselves even though they did not own them.

here is a Kushner property
https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/3odjxBLkemocMf6Ai4TBQw--~A/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjtzbT0xO3c9MTI4MDtoPTk2MA--/https://media.zenfs.com/en/ap.org/8151fa2b5d32fa5e4884a0f676f82570

Here is but one example of the homes in Cummins' district
https://i1.wp.com/patriotsforamerica.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/IMG_6290-600x490.jpg?resize=600%2C490

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EAq22cTUEAAd6Ie?format=jpg&name=large

Oh come on, you can find abandoned buildings in every city dude. What kind of dufus propaganda are you trying to sell? If the dufus was so concerned would rats would he be tweeting and looking for cameras or making phone calls to governors, mayors and congressmen?

Naw, its a smear campaign against his dem enemies to get you repubs and conservatives behind him. Not surprising conservatives would jump on the bandwagon to put down the liberal strongholds. You did that before the dufus, so why stop now in the middle of silly season? Your representation of that district is flawed and one sided.

Baltimore's a great place to live. That's why the population has fallen by 35% since 1950. It was then the sixth largest city in America. It's now fallen to thirtieth. Yep. Those democrats sure know how to manage cities.

Baltimore's a great place to live. That's why the population has fallen by 35% since 1950. It was then the sixth largest city in America. It's now fallen to thirtieth. Yep. Those democrats sure know how to manage cities.

40 years ago I met an american who came from Baltimore. We travelled through the worst post industrial suburbs with many buildings needing redevelopment. His comment was that the suburb as alright and I took that to mean this is what he is used to
From your photos I can surmise that little has changed in that time

leave my mother out of it .

I wanted to use "God" but I didn't know if you were a believer, so I used the next best thing - your mother. It was the ultimate compliment, but I will respect your wishes, and in the future I will keep your mother out of my musings.

Baltimore's a great place to live. That's why the population has fallen by 35% since 1950. It was then the sixth largest city in America. It's now fallen to thirtieth. Yep. Those democrats sure know how to manage cities.

They ran from the south too as I remember it, and since you guys aren't exactly economic powerhouses now maybe repubs ain't the answer either.

They ran from the south too as I remember it, and since you guys aren't exactly economic powerhouses now maybe repubs ain't the answer either.

Uhm...it's not the south having a big problem with losing population. The top six states are Illinois, West Virginia, Connecticut, Mississippi, Maine and Vermont. Only one of those is in the south.

Our state's biggest problem is the fact that several of our larger cities are run by (wait for it) democrats!! They are bleeding people, including the city near me.

Who says Americans migrating to other parts of the country is a bad thing in the first place? You make such a big deal of the differences between people you put into categories that you could be missing the similarities. Still haven't heard of the dealmaker dufus picking up a phone and offering these places any solutions or assistance, just like you, casting allegations and aspersions.

Or could this attack on Cummings and Baltimore be about someone daring to investigate him as part of his oversight duties? Or his blasting his sycophant in charge of migrants on the southern border? Or BOTH?

I did offer a solution. Go to the cities that are doing well and see what they are doing that the dying cities like Detroit and Baltimore are not doing. In other words, stop passing on responsibility to the federal government that is currently almost 23 tril in debt. Detroit has paintings in their art gallery worth hundreds of millions of dollars. Why not sell about half of them and put that into their own infrastructure and debt reduction? In other words, get off your rear end and see what you can do to help yourself.

The same is true of Flint. Instead of waiting around for someone to come and rescue you, show some initiative and get busy cleaning up your water system. Find your own answers.


Who says Americans migrating to other parts of the country is a bad thing in the first place?

Ask Jackson, MS, Detroit, and Baltimore if it's a problem.

hey the Dems were in Detroit the last 2 days promising to kill of the auto industry !

I did offer a solution. Go to the cities that are doing well and see what they are doing that the dying cities like Detroit and Baltimore are not doing. In other words, stop passing on responsibility to the federal government that is currently almost 23 tril in debt. Detroit has paintings in their art gallery worth hundreds of millions of dollars. Why not sell about half of them and put that into their own infrastructure and debt reduction? In other words, get off your rear end and see what you can do to help yourself.

The same is true of Flint. Instead of waiting around for someone to come and rescue you, show some initiative and get busy cleaning up your water system. Find your own answers.



Ask Jackson, MS, Detroit, and Baltimore if it's a problem.

HOGWASH! That's the governments job to aid where they can and help with the money to help themselves. That's what a UNITED country is about. Helping it's citizens. Funny you don't say the same about your government help Big Biz make money with tax cuts and loopholes and write offs to protect the wealthy.

Why do I have to keep telling you about confusing life and BS?

I have peeps in most of the places you named and throughout some tough financial times no doubt they will grow and prosper. Some will grow faster than others.

Baltimore, Detroit, and Jackson aren't dying they are transitioning despite a few challenges. I have seen some great hospitals in Baltimore and million dollar homes.

Funny you don't say the same about your government help Big Biz make money with tax cuts and loopholes and write offs to protect the wealthy.

For the ten millionth time, the top 20% of income earners are paying 85% of the income taxes. If you claim that's "protection", then you don't understand the meaning of the word. You have been listening to the democratic party propaganda too long.


Baltimore, Detroit, and Jackson aren't dying they are transitioning despite a few challenges. I have seen some great hospitals in Baltimore and million dollar homes.

That statement really takes the cake. They are "transitioning"??? Is that kind of like losing about a fourth to a half of their population, having entire neighborhoods deserted, having a greatly reduced tax base, having sky high crime rates, losing thousands of jobs, seeing hundreds of millions of dollars of personal wealth go up in smoke, and being in, according to you, desperate need of a bailout by the federal taxpayers? That's the "transition" you're talking about? Good grief. And you want to say to me, "Why do I have to keep telling you about confusing life and BS?" Try listening to your own advice.

I never cease to be amazed at how far liberals will go to justify their support of democrat politicians.

You never did understand the difference between individual wealth and corporate protectionism. The top 1% have 90% of the wealth in America. I guess we're free to elect people and they can control what they do, for THEM. I mean you holler about people taking your money, while you give it away to guys like the dufus.

Math isn't your strong point is it?

The top 1% have 90% of the wealth in America.

Completely and absurdly incorrect. Do you ever bother yourself to actually research what you say? Reading must not be your strong point. Yet again you are confusing life and BS.

In the meantime, Baltimore continues its "transition" to oblivion. "Six Baltimore City schools — five high schools and one middle school — were found to have not a single student who scored proficient in math or reading in 2016, "

You claim to have such concern for the kids on the southern border since you can blame that on Trump, but when it comes to these kids being ignored and warehoused in Baltimore, you express no concern since, after all, you can't blame that one on Trump.

https://www.educationdive.com/news/several-baltimore-schools-report-0-students-proficient-in-math-reading/443155/

HOGWASH! you're supposed to use "malarkey" .


I wanted to use "God" but I didn't know if you were a believer, so I used the next best thing - your mother.
My moral compass is my own . It doesn't come from God or parentage .I am an adult with free will and opinions that are my own. I have been a landlord before and I assure you ,it is not worth it . Has nothing to do with my compassion. When I was a landlord I rented property to make money ...period .

My moral compass is my own . It doesn't come from God or parentage .I am an adult with free will and opinions that are my own

A few observations.

1. I don't think that free will/opinions are really the same as a moral compass.

2. That's fine as long as you are prepared to let everyone else do the same. Be careful if you adopt that view. The results are not pleasant.

3. . How do you know that your moral compass did not come from God, your parents, or any one of hundreds of other influences? I don't think your moral compass developed in a vacuum. Now it is the result of decisions you have made, so that would be fair enough, but what outside sources influenced your decisions?

Completely and absurdly incorrect. Do you ever bother yourself to actually research what you say? Reading must not be your strong point. Yet again you are confusing life and BS.

In the meantime, Baltimore continues its "transition" to oblivion. "Six Baltimore City schools — five high schools and one middle school — were found to have not a single student who scored proficient in math or reading in 2016, "

You claim to have such concern for the kids on the southern border since you can blame that on Trump, but when it comes to these kids being ignored and warehoused in Baltimore, you express no concern since, after all, you can't blame that one on Trump.

https://www.educationdive.com/news/several-baltimore-schools-report-0-students-proficient-in-math-reading/443155/

My bad! I'm just human and flawed and I own it. Please accept my correction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affluence_in_the_United_States

The top 20% have 87.7 % of the wealth. Do the math, not much pie left.

A few observations.


1. I don't think that free will/opinions are really the same as a moral compass.

I won't have any excuse that my actions are the result of my upbringing and my faith . They are my own and my faith as much as I choose to share it is also my own .


2. That's fine as long as you are prepared to let everyone else do the same. Be careful if you adopt that view. The results are not pleasant.

I did not say I believe in relativism .There is a clear delineation between right and wrong .


3. . How do you know that your moral compass did not come from God, your parents, or any one of hundreds of other influences? I don't think your moral compass developed in a vacuum. Now it is the result of decisions you have made, so that would be fair enough, but what outside sources influenced your decisions?

As an adult I have choices to make that have nothing to do with how I was raised . I could've been raised with a Christian upbringing and be a mass murderer . I could've been raised with no religious foundation by a broken family and still act like a saint . I certainly will not let that be excuses for my behavior . Free will is a blessing given to humans by God. When it is told that we are created in God's image that is exactly what is meant . When God says
“O if only you would actually pay attention to my commandments! Then your peace would become just like a river.”(Isaiah 48:18) There is a clear implication that we are created with free will .God gives us a choice .It is what we do in life that determines our futures and not something predetermined .



Now to the issue. I don't think there is any moral failing if someone owns rental properties that do not make that person money ;and the decision is to evict and to knock the homes down to build condos .

[QUOTE]The top 20% have 87.7 % of the wealth. Do the math, not much pie left.
[/QUOTE}
That assumes the pie is fixed and can't grow . I know differently . Bill Gates made a fortune by selling us Microsoft products . Thousands upon thousands of people purchased those Microsoft products and used them to enrich themselves . How would that be possible if the pie was fixed ?

I did not say I believe in relativism .There is a clear delineation between right and wrong .

So how do you delineate between right and wrong? Is it your own personal beliefs, or there is there some authority outside of yourself that you appeal to?

The top 20% have 87.7 % of the wealth. Do the math, not much pie left.

A lot better than the 1% owning 90%. I have no problem with that as long as the lower 80% have the freedom to move into that 20%. For very nearly all of human history, that freedom was not there. Now, for those who are mentally and physically healthy, the freedom exists to do that. Now it might require working 60 hours a week, not having children out of wedlock, sacrificing to get an education, staying out of senseless debt, learning to invest, and so forth, but it can be done.

Why is it bad for 20% to own 87% of the wealth, but OK for 20% to pay about that same amount of the income taxes?

So how do you delineate between right and wrong? Is it your own personal beliefs, or there is there some authority outside of yourself that you appeal to?What separates us from other animals is we live in a physical world and a moral world .
It is our moral nature that distinguishes us from the other animals . Right and wrong are implanted in our conscious . You can believe it is a gift from God . But if you are not a believer does that moral conscious change ? Does a terrorist get a pass for claiming their beliefs of right and wrong differs ? Our acts are free choices . However we are taught the acts of right and wrong do not change . It is universal . As I said ,we are all made in God's image . So you know where I stand . But how does an atheist know it is evil to murder . Why would that atheist man give up his seat on the bus to an old lady ? Belief does not necessarily have anything to do with it .

It is our moral nature that distinguishes us from the other animals . Right and wrong are implanted in our conscious . You can believe it is a gift from God . But if you are not a believer does that moral conscious change ? Does a terrorist get a pass for claiming their beliefs of right and wrong differs ? Our acts are free choices . However we are taught the acts of right and wrong do not change . It is universal . As I said ,we are all made in God's image . So you know where I stand . But how does an atheist know it is evil to murder . Why would that atheist man give up his seat on the bus to an old lady ? Belief does not necessarily have anything to do with it .

In the Middle East it is widely believed that homosexuals should be executed. The Germans believed the Jews should have been exterminated. Many in the Middle East believe the same way even today. Many in this country believe that a newly born baby can be killed. Many countries still believe in slavery. Many in India and China feel no obligation to hep the poor and starving.

Who's right?

Was slavery wrong in 1859 ? Of course it was regardless of how many Americans believe otherwise .Was German genocide evil ? Of course it was . Is infanticide evil today ? You betcha . Does one need the 10 commandments to tell them that ? No.

Was slavery wrong in 1859 ? Of course it was regardless of how many Americans believe otherwise .

You are basically saying that slavery is wrong because you say so. All those other people were wrong. Now I consider it to be wrong as well, but not because I say so or you say so. I appeal to a higher authority. If you can't do that, then it's just your opinion versus someone else's opinion.

You are basically saying that slavery is wrong because you say so.
No, he isn't!

No, he isn't!

OK. Then what authority is he appealing to, his own or another's?

Was slavery wrong in 1859 ? Of course it was regardless of how many Americans believe otherwise .Was German genocide evil ? Of course it was . Is infanticide evil today ? You betcha . Does one need the 10 commandments to tell them that ? No.

I agree with you Tom and the stain that slavery left on your nation hasn't been erased. There are some who think we have no right to judge the acts of others but God tells us to make a right judgement and that includes helping the less fortunate, not judging them. Man obviously needed the 10 commandments to understand where the boundries are, and still does today, however we are incapable of keeping within these boundries so heeding even higher laws just doesn't get done.

however we are incapable of keeping within these boundries so heeding even higher laws just doesn't get done.

Agreed. There is a higher law. Either that, or it's the rule of the majority.

Agreed. There is a higher law. Either that, or it's the rule of the majority.

The rule of the majority is a poor substitute and it isn't democracy

The rule of the majority is a poor substitute and it isn't democracy

I wasn't referring to ruling (governance) as much as the majority determining what is moral.

I wasn't referring to ruling (governance) as much as the majority determining what is moral.

I have no confidence in the majority determining what is moral. Germany in the 1930's is a prime example, or the current legality of abortion in many places, I expect your comment was sardonic

OK. Then what authority is he appealing to, his own or another's?
It would be a generous, diplomatic move (better than an accusatory statement) to ask him.

You have a right to your own moral compass within the law. You can hold your own nose but not mine...without my consent.

You have a right to your own moral compass within the law. You can hold your own nose but not mine...without my consent.

I expect that is in your constitution somewhere

Man obviously needed the 10 commandments to understand where the boundries are, So only someone raised or who accepts Judeao-Christianity can know right from wrong ;evil from good and act accordingly ?

I generally do not respond to this type of discussion because it is better suited to a different forum. I've said enough on this . I'll continue to respond to discussion about the OP . and try not to respond to someone pointing the finger
J'Accuse at me because they think the position I take is not moral .

I have no confidence in the majority determining what is moral. Germany in the 1930's is a prime example, or the current legality of abortion in many places, I expect your comment was sardonic

I agree completely. Actually, it was not sardonic. I meant it literally. Either we acknowledge a higher law or we submit to the determination of the majority. The signers of the Declaration of Independence knew this.

It would be a generous, diplomatic move (better than an accusatory statement) to ask him.

I was not accusing him of anything. I was trying to summarize his statement for the purpose of discussion. I think a fair reading of what he wrote bears that out.


and try not to respond to someone pointing the finger J'Accuse at me because they think the position I take is not moral .

I have not pointed a finger, called your position immoral, or accused you of anything. I am asking questions in the hopes of clarifying your views. You actually started this discussion with your statement that your moral beliefs are your own and not the result of being influenced by religion or parents. If you don't care to discuss it, then we'll just drop it. No problem and no bad reflection on anyone.

I agree completely. Actually, it was not sardonic. I meant it literally. Either we acknowledge a higher law or we submit to the determination of the majority. The signers of the Declaration of Independence knew this.

Room for BOTH, if one stays in his own lane, and obeys the law.

I have not pointed a finger, called your position immoral, or accused you of anything
didn't say you did ;and no I did not start it . There was a reason I went down that path in this OP and it had nothing at all to do with anything you wrote . here is what initiated the exchange :



there has never been any doubt that you care nothing for the less fortunate. Your love is for profits. Didn't your mother ever tell you about loving your neighbor? Did she say love your profits?

Room for BOTH, if one stays in his own lane, and obeys the law.

One has to be above the other. There cannot be two co-equal laws. When they disagree, as they will, which one trumps the other?

One has to be above the other. There cannot be two co-equal laws. When they disagree, as they will, which one trumps the other?

The one YOU choose to follow.

One has to be above the other. There cannot be two co-equal laws. When they disagree, as they will, which one trumps the other?
The Bible tells me to stay in my own lane. Illinois law tells me to stay in my own lane.

The Bible tells me to stay in my own lane.

The Bible tells you to stay in God's lane.


The one YOU choose to follow.

So does everyone get to choose?

Don't know.

The Bible tells me to stay in my own lane. Illinois law tells me to stay in my own lane.

The Bible tells you to stay in God's lane.

So does everyone get to choose?

No, JL; you don't understand. The Bible tells me to stay in my own lane so I don't hurt or kill anyone else. Illinois law tells me the same thing.

Both of you, I suspect, understand quite well what the question is. You two keep wanting to tell me what your source of personal moral belief is. I get that quite well, but that's not the real question. The REAL question is this. Does everyone else get to choose their own source of morality?

If they do, then do we have to honor those moral values?

If they don't, then what source of moral values should they choose?

It is an amazingly important question.

The REAL question is this. Does everyone else get to choose their own source of morality?
Did God give man free will? (The El Paso shooter even wrote a two-page manifesto to explain his reason for killing, what his choice of morality is.)

God said, "Thou shalt not kill." The US government doesn't tell us not to kill anyone, not to murder, but if someone does so, the government will identify and punish the murderer. Thus, in this way, we are tacitly told not to kill anyone.

Both of you, I suspect, understand quite well what the question is. You two keep wanting to tell me what your source of personal moral belief is.

Not really but you're the one asking so if that's what you want to know then just ask. Why are you beating around the bush? You probably know already any way so why the questions and why do they matter to you?


Does everyone else get to choose their own source of morality?

If they want. That would be up to them wouldn't it?

If they do, then do we have to honor those moral values?

If you choose to. Isn't that up to you?

If they don't, then what source of moral values should they choose?

Isn't that a question they should answer for themselves? What's stopping them from choosing what they want?

Did God give man free will? (The El Paso shooter even wrote a two-page manifesto to explain his reason for killing, what his choice of morality is.)

So should we honor his decision?



God said, "Thou shalt not kill." The US government doesn't tell us not to kill anyone, not to murder, but if someone does so, the government will identify and punish the murderer. Thus, in this way, we are tacitly told not to kill anyone.

But you are appealing to the authority of God. Is that proper?


If they do, then do we have to honor those moral values? If you choose to. Isn't that up to you?

How about the people who planned and carried out the attacks on 9/11. Do you honor their moral choices? If not, then why not?

I realize this seems to be a game to you, but it's a serious issue.

So should we honor his decision?
I have my own moral compass. The shooter has his own. Did he break the law -- God's as well as the government's?

But you are appealing to the authority of God. Is that proper?
Where? How?

How about the people who planned and carried out the attacks on 9/11. Do you honor their moral choices? If not, then why not?
Their moral choices would not have been mine. I don't fly planes into tall buildings in order to kill people.

I realize this seems to be a game to you, but it's a serious issue.
A game???? How so?

I have my own moral compass. The shooter has his own. Did he break the law -- God's as well as the government's?

But you are appealing to the authority of God. Is that proper?

Where? How?

Read your comment carefully, especially the underlined part. Or even this from an earlier post: "God said, 'Thou shalt not kill.'"

I asked, "How about the people who planned and carried out the attacks on 9/11. Do you honor their moral choices? If not, then why not?"

Your reply was, "Their moral choices would not have been mine. I don't fly planes into tall buildings in order to kill people."

Evasive as always. You refuse to answer either question and just make the most obvious observation on the planet. Trying to reason with you is just too frustrating. You play games instead of being serious. Believe as you will.

Read your comment carefully, especially the underlined part. Or even this from an earlier post: "God said, 'Thou shalt not kill.'"

I asked, "How about the people who planned and carried out the attacks on 9/11. Do you honor their moral choices? If not, then why not?"

Your reply was, "Their moral choices would not have been mine. I don't fly planes into tall buildings in order to kill people."

Evasive as always. You refuse to answer either question and just make the most obvious observation on the planet. Trying to reason with you is just too frustrating. You play games instead of being serious. Believe as you will.
I didn't evade. I answered.

As you quoted me: Your reply was, "Their moral choices would not have been mine. (No) I don't fly planes into tall buildings in order to kill people. (No)

My answers to your questions (Do you honor their moral choices? If not, then why not?") were NO and I DO NOT KILL PEOPLE I DISAGREE WITH. The Bible says, "love one another."

Tell me what and how YOU would answer.

The Bible says, "love one another."

So you are appealing to the authority of the Bible? And please don't reply with "Where? How?"

My answer? I do not honor their moral choice. Their moral views were wrong and I say that by appealing to the God of the Bible. I know of no other appeal that can be effective and that does not end up boiling down to a simple difference of opinions.

You cheated a bit in your reply. " (No) I don't fly planes". The "No" was not in your original reply. It was understood and I'm sure that was your point.

So you are appealing to the authority of the Bible? And please don't reply with "Where? How?"

My answer? I do not honor their moral choice. Their moral views were wrong and I say that by appealing to the God of the Bible. I know of no other appeal that can be effective and that does not end up boiling down to a simple difference of opinions.

Is that your opinion, or your choice? What would the difference be?

s that your opinion, or your choice? What would the difference be?

I'm not sure what you are asking.

It becomes confusing when you produce the authority of the Bible without specifically using Scripture. I can say the Bible says and it may not be specifically true hoever it is difficult to refute Scripture

The street fight over “racism” between Rep. Elijah Cummings of Baltimore and President Trump reminds us that all political traumas eventually fade from memory to become an abstraction. Last weekend, when Rep. Carolyn Maloney of New York proposed a Canyon of Heroes parade honoring 9/11 first responders, it struck me as grandstanding. Then the thought occurred: Why not? That awful day was 18 years ago, and it’s already drifting into the fog of history. Some people visit Civil War battlefields or World War I cemeteries in France and Belgium to revive a palpable sense of that incredible carnage. So one has to wonder: What is it with the constant claims and charges of racism these days? Is it to remind us of the real and violent racism that existed before Martin Luther King Jr. led the civil-rights movement in the 1960s?

Or would it be truer to say that 55 years after Congress passed the Civil Rights Act of 1964, racism is being pushed into the realm of abstraction, reduced mainly to use as a weapon of political rhetoric?
If one happened to be alive at the time, the reality of the urban riots in the 1960s sits forever in the mind’s eye as one of America’s most unforgettable traumas. Merely mention “the Watts riot” or “the Hough riots,” and there’s hardly a person living then who doesn’t know you’re talking about the burning, rage and destruction that engulfed African-American neighborhoods in Los Angeles, Cleveland, Newark, Detroit and many other cities. After King’s assassination in 1968, horrific inner-city riots broke out in New York, Washington, Detroit, Baltimore, Chicago, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Kansas City and Trenton, N.J. For much of the U.S. population born since then, those events have about as much immediacy as a World War II documentary.Still, political control of virtually all these cities has remained in the hands of the Democratic Party. Baltimore, Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Philadelphia and St. Louis have had nothing but Democratic mayors since then.New York has had several Republican mayors, though the chances of another ever winning election are about zero. As elsewhere, the city’s politics is so noncompetitive that most of New York’s Democrats don’t even bother to vote. When Bill de Blasio was first elected in 2013, turnout was 26% of registered voters, a record low.That suits the keepers of America’s sterile status quo in its most rundown neighborhoods just fine. Urban Democrats are now in a destructive co-dependent relationship with public-sector unions. Inner-city residents have become an afterthought.Walking past a public-housing complex in lower Manhattan recently, I noticed the date on the cornerstone: 1963. That is about when these projects were erected all over the U.S. They, like so much urban infrastructure, are falling apart through neglect because city budgets are consumed by labor costs. Public schools in every city mentioned in this column are failing to educate black American children adequately because the teachers unions won’t permit reform.According to recent FBI data, the most violent cities in the U.S. include—still—St. Louis, Detroit, Baltimore, Milwaukee, Cleveland and Oakland, Calif. A 16-year-old gangbanger in Chicago today was born in 2002 or 2003, after 9/11. Stories like his, passing from innocence to ruin before reaching adulthood, have repeated themselves every 20 years in all these Democratic-controlled cities. If that’s not racism caused by political failure, the word has no meaning. Yet the press, or part of it, has been consumed the past week with Trump vs. Cummings and such irrelevant stories as “Cummings has long frustrated the president.”




During the Clinton presidency, a brief period of “moderate” reform surfaced on welfare, schools and, yes, crime, but progressives have repudiated all that, as the liberal traditionalist Joe Biden has learned.And so we return to seeking explanations for the profligate use of the word “racism” today. Here’s one: Liberals and the liberal media have internalized this embarrassing and disgraceful urban failure. They’ve moved past it. They’ve given up.After 55 years of wheel-spinning, it’s all getting abstracted into “racism.” The gentry liberals who drove up housing prices for the poor and middle class walk past the human and physical debris like 18th-century Parisian aristocrats holding perfumed handkerchiefs to their noses. In Queens, they sent Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez to Congress to keep them entertained on Instagram.Messrs. Cummings and Trump are footnotes in this unhappy saga. The important difference is that the Baltimore congressman no longer has much to add, but Mr. Trump is president. Mr. Trump brought up the subject of Baltimore. Now he should put it and these other cities on his campaign agenda. Let the left scream racism. Everyone else in American knows the reality is deeper than that.https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-trump-cummings-brawl-11564614208?mod=e2fb&fbclid=IwAR3_AwvR2zKBqeT5xAd5y6x8Q3ulUZ1KaZrSUOm_-ywGac9BrksP6MGYX7s

You know Tom, I think you over think the problem. There will be many months of crap twitter from Trump as he seeks attention. He doesn't have any Repelican candidates to prove his supremacy over, so upsetting the Demonrats is all he can settle for

that is not it . the Dems have run the inner city for more than half a century and for all their talk of caring, have done nothing at all to fix it .

The dems may hold offices of the big cities Tom, but the money is still held and controled by a few. You know the capatalist system as well as anyone I know, and starving the money is to control the land and people. I would hope you would study up on GENTRIFICATION and learn how manipulating the value of neighborhoods down, makes it prime for development later.

https://www.businessinsider.com/what-detroit-has-compromised-for-its-economic-recovery-2019-7

All you need to kick start things is a financial crisis, remove the old and bring in the big money. What drives capitalism? Wealth accumulated by cheap labor. Just ask your local chamber of commerce. Certainly not people who can barely afford to invest in themselves let alone their community.

Banks don't allow that now do they?

The dems may hold offices of the big cities Tom, but the money is still held and controled by a few. You know the capatalist system as well as anyone I know, and starving the money is to control the land and people.

It could never be admitted that it might be the fault of the democrat politicians. Giuliani came in as the mayor of New York City and cut the rates of violent crime and murder by much more than 50% in only eight years. No excuses about the evils of capitalism are needed when you have efficient leadership. The incessant appeal to the evils of capitalism get old. Try living in most of the rest of the world for a year. It'll look better then.

No it won't because I have sick people like you ignoring the suppression, oppression, cruelty and outright murder of defenseless men women and children right here in MY country. You are sick because you are in the same boat as they are, but don't know it so easy to deny it and them too! Tell the dufus and his sycophants to get off their dead arses and do something about these domestic terrorists. If they had been brown or Muslim you would move heaven and earth to stomp on them by now.

If the CURRENT EVENTS don't sicken you then it's you who are sick.

White supremist terrorism has to be confronted and treated like any other terrorism. Groups and individuals need to be identified and infiltrated before they commit acts of violence . Antifa needs to be treated the same way.

We completely agree here Tom. They are reporting the Dayton shooter killed his sister and boyfriend so no telling how wild this will get.

White supremist terrorism has to be confronted and treated like any other terrorism. Groups and individuals need to be identified and infiltrated before they commit acts of violence . Antifa needs to be treated the same way.
There are lots of lone rangers out there in InternetLand who have inhaled the white supremacy thinking. One popped up in a Facebook cat group the other day!

No it won't because I have sick people like you ignoring the suppression, oppression, cruelty and outright murder of defenseless men women and children right here in MY country. You are sick because you are in the same boat as they are, but don't know it so easy to deny it and them too!

Yeah. I don't agree with you, so I must be sick. Makes sense! Still, I just think we ought to hold the people in charge responsible for decades of decay and failure. If that's being sick, then I plead guilty. Baltimore was is a state of decay during the Obama admin. Was Mr. Obama and his "sycophants" responsible for that???


Tell the dufus and his sycophants to get off their dead arses and do something about these domestic terrorists. If they had been brown or Muslim you would move heaven and earth to stomp on them by now.

The mass shooting in El Paso is a tragedy and we should do something, though I'm not quite sure what the "something" is that we should do. Still, in Baltimore alone the murder total for last year was the equal of FIFTEEN of the El Paso shootings. Maybe we should do something there. Maybe we should look at what Giuliani did in New York. Maybe we should have some concern for those poor people in Baltimore who have to live in such violent neighborhoods. And just maybe we should do more than grandstanding and calling other people "sick". Your name-calling gets old. Your blame game gets old. Why not try to come up with solutions other than the constant harping on capitalism? Seven of the nineteen high schools in Baltimore did not have a single student score proficient on state math tests. Think about that. Not a single student scored proficient. Maybe we should think about that. I'm sure you'll use your tired old excuse about "the Dufus and his sycophants", but he's not in charge in these failing large cities. You can't blame the police or the capitalists. You can't blame a lack of funding because they spend money like crazy. It's your democrat buddies who are in charge. Things won't change until liberals "man up" and admit to it.

There are white supremacists. There are black supremacists. There are Hispanic supremacists. There are male and female supremacists. When did any of that become news?

There are white supremacists. There are black supremacists. There are Hispanic supremacists. There are male and female supremacists. When did any of that become news?

When they become mass shooters.

When they become mass shooters.

Fair enough. Now how about those 309 murdered people in Baltimore just last year. Any interest in them?

There are lots of lone rangers out there in InternetLand who have inhaled the white supremacy thinking. One popped up in a Facebook cat group the other day!
Yes there are ;and yet they have proactively identified and stopped lone wolf jihadists before they attack. It's either that or get proactive and reduce the number of soft targets . That would be more difficult than getting proactive in identifying potential shooters through intel sharing and more community policing organizations .When one pops up on Facebook that person can be reported anonymously if they are writing something that appears threatening .

The rise of these hate groups makes decisions like these mystifying.

https://www.newsweek.com/far-right-alt-right-neo-nazis-life-after-hate-628829

https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/346552-trump-cut-funds-to-fight-anti-right-wing-violence

you see these attacks as more fodder for attacking Trump .Since it is difficult to pin Chicago shootings on him then they should be ignored .

Dayton killer “was expelled from school after officials found a notebook where he reportedly wrote a list of people who he wanted to rape, kill and skin their bodies.”

https://dayton247now.com/news/local/dayton-police-fbi-on-scene-in-bellbrook-neighborhood-related-to-oregon-district-shooting

see or hear something say something just like we do when we suspect any other act of terrorism .

The rise of these hate groups makes decisions like these mystifying.

https://www.newsweek.com/far-right-alt-right-neo-nazis-life-after-hate-628829


"Mystifying" is an understatement. These were monies approved by all that were designated to help former extreme rightists to be rehabilitated. It is hard to believe anybody could oppose such a worthy cause.

The Trump administration, however, saw fit to cancel the grant and withhold the money already granted. Trump gets bolder and bolder as he nears his demise, ardently hoped for by the majority of Americans (and non-Americans across the world).

Trump gets bolder and bolder as he nears his demise, ardently hoped for by the majority of Americans (and non-Americans across the world).

Some statements here we might agree on, although I wouldn't count on his demise, the opposition doesn't offer much promise

you see these attacks as more fodder for attacking Trump .Since it is difficult to pin Chicago shootings on him then they should be ignored .

Plenty of blame for many presidents and congresses not just the dufus Tom but the dufus has promoted a lot of bad behavior in my view and I have clearly pointed out the problems of poverty and capitalism running amok in our cities that predate the dufus. For your part you use the woes of the cities as a cudgel to beat the dems over the head, so I guess it evens out in the wash, but solves nothing.

he got bump stock banned .

He is proposing stronger back round checks.

Not that that will go anywhere . Competing gun legislation that would've restricted sales of guns to people on the FBI terrorist watch list ,and stronger back round checks ,bills that even the NRA supported, failed in partisan votes in the Senate in 2016 .

He also wants to tie gun reforms to immigration reforms so even less likely either will go anywhere. Moscow Mitch has several bills from the house on both subjects and we got nada, not even a debate. What a pair these two holding high offices of the land. Banning bump stocks was a start but inadequate, without follow up and follow through.

What has Pelosi's House come up with?

her bill failed also . Tal you don't get negotiations yet. You add the kitchen sink to a wish list and then it get negotiated down. What is wrong with tying immigration reform with gun control measures ? It gives both sides something they want .

her bill failed also . Tal you don't get negotiations yet. You add the kitchen sink to a wish list and then it get negotiated down. What is wrong with tying immigration reform with gun control measures ? It gives both sides something they want .

Maybe you could start with legislating common sense

yes it is common sense to have both back round checks strengthened AND to reform immigration laws .

yes it is common sense to have both back round checks strengthened AND to reform immigration laws .


It is not common sense. It is Trump using the dead and wounded to force his political agenda.

You make my point rather well Tom, since there are proposals from the house, but no negotiations or proposals coming from the senate, so ask Moscow Mitch where his common sense is.

some killings get the nation's attention ....others don't

https://www.kansascity.com/news/local/crime/article233517417.html?fbclid=IwAR1KWvb2ZG7ewdoaiAO-VWXHTWWFO8Ml9OYKSxrItciHfvnxBHGlf8pWcR4

bs Tal both sides play politics with the gun issue. The Dems were more than thrilled that John Cornyn's bill was defeated . There was not one Dem Senate vote in support

This is a gun culture country, with plenty of gun toting lunatics and psychopaths all over the place.



bs Tal both sides play politics with the gun issue. The Dems were more than thrilled that John Cornyn's bill was defeated . There was not one Dem Senate vote in support

Which one do you mean since he has sponsored many over the years...all going down in flames.

Yeah it is a gun culture .Over 300 million legal guns and probably more than a trillion rounds ... If gun ownership was the issue you would know it .

The inertia is in both parties . Not that any registration legislation /law would make any difference . https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EBFXlSjVUAAkRSO?format=png&name=small

Why not admit like former Justice John Paul Stevens did that the only common sense legislation you guys really want is a repeal of the 2nd amendment ? https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/27/opinion/john-paul-stevens-repeal-second-amendment.html

I said in the other thread



The dufus could always declare an emergency like he did during the invasion from the south and take care of this mess with an executive order. Problem solved tomorrow. Or today if he skips his Mickey D break!

What order are you speaking of? "By executive order, I do hereby ban all mass shootings in the U.S." I wish it was that simple.

why didn't the emperor ? God knows he made enough EOs . Here's a clue . No place has tougher gun laws than Chi-town. A lot of good that does

For the dufus that should be easy peasy.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=I+can+fix+it+easily%2fTrump&&view=detail&mid=A8A8CCFB7B2B42C77C43A8A8CCFB7B2B42C77C43&&FORM=VRDGAR

What order are you speaking of? "By executive order, I do hereby ban all mass shootings in the U.S." I wish it was that simple.
No. By executive order, I do hereby ban all guns of any type in the US.

No. By executive order, I do hereby ban all guns of any type in the US.

How easy was that?

How easy was that?

In the great liberal tradition of completely ignoring the Constitution, it would be easy. For the rest of America that respects the rule of law, it is legally impossible. Not even your hero, Mr. Obama, dared to go that far.

In the great liberal tradition of completely ignoring the Constitution, it would be easy. For the rest of America that respects the rule of law, it is legally impossible. Not even your hero, Mr. Obama, dared to go that far.
At least, there won't be guns in heaven

https://babylonbee.com/img/articles/article-4609-4.jpg

At least, there won't be guns in heaven

Even better, there will be no wicked hearts in heaven. "But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander."

The problem lies in the hearts of people. Only Jesus can fix that.

In the great liberal tradition of completely ignoring the Constitution, it would be easy. For the rest of America that respects the rule of law, it is legally impossible. Not even your hero, Mr. Obama, dared to go that far.

The dufus doesn't care about the law, let alone the constitution. He is above all that. Ask him.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/01/23/trump_i_could_stand_in_the_middle_of_fifth_avenue_ and_shoot_somebody_and_i_wouldnt_lose_any_voters.h tml

The dufus doesn't care about the law, let alone the constitution. He is above all that. Ask him.

You're the one proposing he issue a completely unconstitutional and unlawful executive order.

No I did not, I proposed he FIX things the way he has been doing by EO.

Post 125. WG posted,"No. By executive order, I do hereby ban all guns of any type in the US."

Your reply was, "How easy was that?"

Sure sounded like you endorsed her idea, doesn't it???

Sounds more like I endorsed both our ideas.

Either way, you DID endorse her idea, and it was an unlawful, unconstitutional proposal. I think she meant it to be an expression of frustration as much as anything, and I can understand that.

btw the Pelosi bills that Dems are demanding be bumrushed through the Senate are DOA because the Dems bumrushed the bill through the House rejecting EVERY amendment offered by Repubicans .(HR 8 and HR 1112) Typical of the Dems the bill would do nothing to prevent illegal gun use but add heavy burdens to legal gun owners and purchasers ,
that would only make it more expensive and difficult to buy or sell firearms. IF
these bills became law, a future anti-gun president could declare a national emergency on gun violence and thereby shut down the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS).

I guarantee that almost 100% of the guns used in crime sprees throughout urban US are either stolen or purchased on the black market . As far as El Paso and Dayton;

As far as we know, neither gunman would have been stopped from purchasing a weapon by an “expanded” background check or any kind of background checks that didn’t have a pre-crime component. Neither shooter had a criminal record. How about enforcing laws we have ?
The Sutherland Springs church shooter, was convicted of assaulting his wife and stepson .The FBI blew it .
The Charleston church shooter had narcotic convictions. That info never made it to the FBI as it should have . The
Virginia Tech killer bought guns after a court found him a danger to himself . Again the info never got passed on. All could've been prevented with existing law. .

Not to mention that the murder count in Baltimore will be about 300 this year. The general response is to yawn. There is no political advantage to be gained by liberals, so they are completely comfortable in ignoring it. If only E. Cummings was a republican!!

yes I yawn when people start to repeat themselves

https://www.baltimoresun.com/maryland/baltimore-city/bs-md-ci-fulton-avenue-clean-up-20190805-3vjb2niscjdhrowg3femahulp4-story.html

Touching, maybe an example of what conservatives can do beside beetch. NY are you listening!

Great story.