Here we have the possibility of a false flag event, it would seem the tankers might have been attacked with mines, and there appears to be video of an "Iranian special forces team. various reports have suggested a shell, or torpedos. This is what the Trump administration wants; a justification for war. Can't get what you want with sanctions, try gun boat diplomacy

Plus he has to divert our attention again.

Take off your tin foil hat and don't be ridiculous . Trump is as odds with hardliners in his administration like Bolton over Iranian policy .He
is instinctively wary of military adventures and has never demonstrated a shoot first mentality .
Now me ;I would do another Operation Earnest Will all over their sorry a$$es But even though it is more than justified ; I am sure that will be the last option for this President .

Take off your tin foil hat and don't be ridiculous . Trump is as odds with hardliners in his administration like Bolton over Iranian policy .He
is instinctively wary of military adventures and has never demonstrated a shoot first mentality .
Now me ;I would do another Operation Earnest Will all over their sorry a$$es But even though it is more than justified ; I am sure that will be the last option for this President .


Maybe his bone spurs still hurt.

Maybe his bone spurs still hurt.

This week many things have hurt, but, through the halo of pain and discomfort, what did I see. Trump successfully bluffing Mexico and Iran not giving in. Tom may think I wear a tin foil hat but nothing can keep the crap out

Could be cause for real concern here.

I think we forgot who we are dealing with. Obama should have never opened the door...blame it on him.

There is NO evidence of a "false flag" /"wag the dog" scenario The video released is the smoking gun .Iranians were sent to recover an unexploded limpet mine .Had others gotten to it first the forensic fingerprints would've pointed directly at Iran. This is not the first attack in recent weeks and the US did not point an accusing finger until the evidence made it clear who the attackers were .

Besides what would Trump need a distraction from ?Sarah Sanders resigning ? He was exonerated by Mueller . The Dems are grasping at straws trying to find anything that would justify credible claims to proceed with impeachment hearings .There has been no crisis that he hasn't weathered .

Trump did not call for a military response . He called for direct negotiations with Iran. I thought that's what all wanted ...jaw jaw instead of war war .

maybe the Houthi rebel attack on the Saudi airport using an Iraninan supplied missile was also a US false flag operation .
https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/12/middleeast/saudi-airport-houthi-missile-intl/index.html

I would be very cautious of getting to caught up in the Saudi/Iran dispute which has been going on for a few decades now. Let them fight their own battles. Didn't learn a darn thing from Iraq did you? Well now why would you listen to another dufus an his sycophants now?

Haven't we gone through something like this before with war criminals Bush, Cheney, Powell and Tenet? At least Powell had the decency to say he was wrong.

By now we know Trump will say and do anything to get re-elected - even a "false war".

let me repeat myself ;Trump is even more reluctant to get us into wars than the emperor was (who btw let Evita get us in a war in Libya under false premises).

My opinion on this differs from Trump because I know for a fact that Iran has waged war with us since 1979.I know that Iran is the lead sponsor of global terrorism . I know that Iran arms are being used by proxy rebels throughout the ummah . I know that Iran sends arms to terrorists all over the world .

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/06/09/iran-linked-terrorists-caught-stockpiling-explosives-north-west/

And I know that the emperor blocked a DEA program in central America that targeted Iranian proxies because he thought it would help him get his nuclear deal with Iran . Hezbollah and the IRGC have been active in Central America for years
https://londoncenter.org/iran-in-latin-america-identifying-the-problem-and-how-we-need-to-confront-it/

If it were up to me he would get much tougher on Iran . As it is now Trump will only tighten economic sanctions and try to build an international coalition to join him in that effort .

Let me ask then..... If Iran makes repeated attempts to shut down the straits of Hormuz and the Gulf of Oman ,as they have repeatedly threatened ,what action do you think would be appropriate ? Me ;I'd sink the Iranian navy and obliterate every port of entry in Iran .

How very John Paul Jones of you

Selling nukes to the Saudis after pulling out of the Iran deal doesn't make friends with the ones still in the deal and as that falls apart all those allies you blasted you will need to build a coalition all over again. You are correct that Iran has ties in many continents, but serving the Saudis isn't a great idea. and Vlad waits in the wings to pick up any slack he sees.

I see many expensive skirmishes coming soon, and sad to say only a fool follows the dufus, but he has the repubs by the short hairs right now.

Let them fight their own battles
They are fighting their own battles.

Well now why would you listen to another dufus an his sycophants now?
There are always people in the world that know what's up, we just have trouble figuring out who to listen to.


only a fool follows the dufus,

Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do.


Haven't we gone through something like this before with war criminals Bush, Cheney, Powell and Tenet? At least Powell had the decency to say he was wrong.

This is not a peace. It is an armistice for 16 years.

Obviously this appears to be no big deal to some of you, Oh Trump is at it again...Cant allow him to take our focus off the bigger picture. War pfft! Just a fabrication.

The coalition building is his business. I'm with the hardliners in the adminstration .

Why should the Saudis not have nukes ? The Iran deal was not stopping them from development . The Iranians should've been given an ultimatum ;not $billions .

Non-proliferation as a concept is dead . If the Saudis don't get the technology from us ,they will get it from Pakistan. If Iran does not stop their development then the only policy left will be mutually assured destruction.

Nukes isn't like selling guns to tribesmen. It's a big deal to all the neighbors including some of our allies. You remember India and Pakistan nuke rattling a few years ago?

and sad to say only a fool follows the dufus

Perhaps he is a fool or a Liar but almost everybody is one or the other and most people are both.

What a perfect description of yourself

What a perfect description of yourself

That's OK. isn't it?

sure, whatever floats your boat

Nukes isn't like selling guns to tribesmen. It's a big deal to all the neighbors including some of our allies. You remember India and Pakistan nuke rattling a few years ago? The Iranian nuke program was the camel's nose under the tent . You're side wasn't serious about stopping it much like the allied nations were not serious about stopping the German buildup when they were violating the Versailles Treaty . Non-proliferation is dead . So the question becomes ;are you comfortable with a new Iran hegemon ? The secondary question is ;as an alternative to the Saudis and the Gulf states nuking up ,would you prefer that they all come under the American nuclear umbrella ?

whatever floats your boat



Does it float your boat?

Nukes isn't like selling guns to tribesmen. It's a big deal to all the neighbors including some of our allies. You remember India and Pakistan nuke rattling a few years ago?
The Iranian nuke program was the camel's nose under the tent . You're side wasn't serious about stopping it much like the allied nations were not serious about stopping the German buildup when they were violating the Versailles Treaty . Non-proliferation is dead . So the question becomes ;are you comfortable with a new Iran hegemon ? The secondary question is ;as an alternative to the Saudis and the Gulf states nuking up ,would you prefer that they all come under the American nuclear umbrella ?

(Bump)

Sorry Tom, I didn't see this.

The Iranian nuke program was the camel's nose under the tent . You're side wasn't serious about stopping it much like the allied nations were not serious about stopping the German buildup when they were violating the Versailles Treaty . Non-proliferation is dead . So the question becomes ;are you comfortable with a new Iran hegemon ? The secondary question is ;as an alternative to the Saudis and the Gulf states nuking up ,would you prefer that they all come under the American nuclear umbrella ?

Yeah that's all we need in the world. Two terrorist repressive nuclear armed governments at war with each other. Nice plan. They can barely handle the old pop guns we give them.

what's your plan ? accept the existence of the Iranian hegemon ?

Getting rid of the lying cheating dufus, would be a GREAT start to a GREAT plan.

focus please

focus please


OK. The lying cheating EVIL dufus.

Getting rid of the lying cheating dufus, would be a GREAT start to a GREAT plan. ]
Then what?


focus please

Do you know who it is your talking to? That's all we ever hear from him; President is a dufuf, dufus, dufus. He has nothing better to say.

Anybody who voted should accept the fact that Trump (just as if you voted for him) is our President.

Getting rid of Trump is "the Plan', there is no plan beyond that. It is your hate that makes you sound ignant (mine comes Naturally).
Getting rid of the current liars, cheaters and morons is not going to correct anything. Look towe-
red Jesus and forget this mess you have created for yourself.


EVIL dufus

Nope, we already established that the 'Evil Dufus' (She won that vote. You can be proud) did not get elected.

There is no hate Walt just a perverse pleasure at seeing conservatives don't like to be treated as they have treated others. Case in point the Obama years and the Clinton decades after a withering onslaught of right wing attack! I love it and see the fun you guys had at throwing rocks slinging mud, and generally blaming everything on liberals.

Now it's your turn so stop crying and take it because you will get it back like you gave it. Just like it was your DUTY to oppose liberals it's liberals duty to oppose conservatives. Here we are!

Anybody who voted should except the fact that Trump (just as if you voted for him) is our President.
"Except" is the perfect word! It means omit, not include. Trump should definitely be excepted!

"Except" is the perfect word! It means omit, not include. Trump should definitely be excepted!


Nice catch - girl of wonder!

you will get it back like you gave it.

Not even close. Why do you suppose there is much more Hatred directed toward Trump? The Dems have declared War! Why, why do you think the Dems declared war? Because they are a bunch of Elite smug school kids that lost power. Playing the Game and then Screaming CHEAT, CHEATERRR!!!It's Childish and Immature. Your not calling Trump Stupid (dufus) your calling the Institution Stupid. Trump is not part of the institution, he doesn't have an axe to grind. Let the man do his Job.

Why bother comparing Trump with Hillary and or Obama, Trump doesn't even come close to the Cr*p that those two pulled while in office.

Trump is not part of the institution, he doesn't have an axe to grind. Let the man do his Job.

Why bother comparing Trump with Hillary and or Obama, Trump doesn't even come close to the Cr*p that those two pulled while in office.

Trump came into office with AXES to grind. The swamp, the Iran deal, the Paris accord, NAFTA, China, Obamacare, illegals and what he couldn't change he threw out. The man had an agenda. Trump way or the highway. If he wasn't such a loud mouth buffoon he might have achieved more. His party don't like him but they will vote for him because he has shown how to defeat the demonrat B/S

Not even close. Why do you suppose there is much more Hatred directed toward Trump? You (Dems) have declared War! Why, why do you think the Dems declared war? Because they are a bunch of Elite smug school kids that lost power. Playing the Game and then Screaming CHEAT, CHEATERRR!!!It's Childish and Immature. Your not calling Trump Stupid (dufus) your calling the Institution Stupid. Trump is not part of the institution, he doesn't have an axe to grind. Let the man do his Job.

Yes I am calling the dufus stupid, which, not being a part of the institution as you said, has nothing to do with the institution at all, but the dufus himself. You mean liberals don't have the right to try and make him a one term prez as you tried to do with Obama? I hope we are more successful, if not oh well.

It is what it is, so enjoy what you can while you can, until repubs grow some stones and reign in his buck wild red meat throwing fear mongering rhetoric. Being nice here because he is still the biggest liar I have ever seen!

You mean liberals don't have the right to try and make him a one term prez

No. First you must recognize his Excellency's Position as being Legitimate.

That's questionable, and I have a right to question his positions and the legitimacy of them, and I do. All Americans have that right.

So, If he is found out to be Illegitimate, after this term is up, would he be considered eligible to serve two additional terms?

He is our Standing president. You can't nullify (100% impossibility) his Presidency. Your team played the game and lost, suck it up and do what is right. People the world over, when making reference about Americans have always uttered the word Stupid. It should be no surprise, its almost as if the world brought it into existence. America is Devalving, we have been for decades...But do what you feel Is best for you and the Country. It's a s**t show and I have a feeling it will continue long after Trump is out.

No. First you must recognize his Excellency's Position as being Legitimate.


The voters chose Hillary Clinton by millions of votes over Trump. It was only because of an outmoded system of counting votes that Trump snuck in. The Founding Fathers are turning over in their sepulchres. What was intended to keep out the Trumps of this world backfired and allowed this one in.

The voters chose Hillary Clinton by millions of votes over Trump. It was only because of an outmoded system of counting votes that Trump snuck in. The Founding Fathers are turning over in their sepulchres. What was intended to keep out the Trumps of this world backfired and allowed this one in.
The 'Trumps of this world' have been running this world for a long time. I understand, it was suppose to be Hillary's turn.

The 'Trumps of this world' have been running this world for a long time. I understand, it was suppose to be Hillary's turn.

There is no line for having a turn otherwise Joe wouldn't want to try again

Yesterday the House along party lines voted to repeal the 2001 Authorization for Use of Military Force (AUMF ) that has been used by Presidents Bush ,the emperor ,and Trump to attack targets as long as they were linked to terrorism . Now we hear that Iran shot down a US Navy MQ-4C Drone (cost $120 million) over international waters in the Straits of Hormuz (Iran claims it was in Iranian air space ,but that is easily verifiable ) . This now gives the President the authority to attack Iranian military targets without the cover of AUMF . The question is ;why does Iran want to go to war with the US ? This drone is the 2nd one they've targeted in a week . Previously they attacked a drone near the tanker they attacked .

Contrary to claims Trump is prodding Iran into war, the president and his admin have responded to escalating Iranian provocations with restraint bordering on weakness. I think that his comments today that the attack could be from some military officer acting outside of policy from Tehran may have prevented the markets from going crazy.

we hear that Iran shot down a US Navy MQ-4C Drone (cost $120 million) over international waters in the Straits of Hormuz (Iran claims it was in Iranian air space ,but that is easily verifiable )




How is it easily verifiable?

After the Pentagon papers, Gulf of Tonkin, Iraq WMDs, and others, the current rush to war in Iran (if that's what it is), I have a hard time believing the US Gov't when it flexes its military muscles. This is a great shame and seems to be bipartisan. The wrong guys have their finger on the trigger and Trump is by far the worst but he seems to be the cool head in the room if the news reports are accurate. Trump as a war leader is terrifying.

Pick your potentate, dufus took the Saudis. Neither is worth a crap, and Vlad likes them both. You think the 12ers will talk to the dufus about anything? It's a mess that's bound to get messier. Or you could go with door 3...the UFO's.

How is it easily verifiable?

multiple nations have gps .



After the Pentagon papers, Gulf of Tonkin, Iraq WMDs, and others, the current rush to war in Iran (if that's what it is), I have a hard time believing the US Gov't when it flexes its military muscles.
and yet you were so willing to believe the intel agency when it said that Trump was colluding .



You think the 12ers will talk to the dufus about anything?
nope ,they play American leaders who think they can be negotiated with . If it were up to me there would already be a big crater where the SAM was launched .

Pick your potentate, dufus took the Saudis. Neither is worth a crap, and Vlad likes them both. You think the 12ers will talk to the dufus about anything? It's a mess that's bound to get messier. Or you could go with door 3...the UFO's.


Translate, please.

Trump as a war leader is terrifying.

I don't know, I hear he plays a mean game of RISK...terrifying for the other side?

multiple nations have gps .

This drone is reported to have been lost by its control so the GPS would not work to locate it. I assume we'll know shortly, but maybe not.


and yet you were so willing to believe the intel agency when it said that Trump was colluding.

Generally, the intel agencies get it right, but not always. You have to take many factors into account. Mueller's report, for example, clearly showed obstruction of justice by Trump. And we all know the reasons behind not charging Trump since the DOJ regards him as a Divine Right King.

the 12ers ? They are the cult that runs Iran. They think the 12th Iman will return from the well he fell into and will restore greatness in Islam. I call followers of the 12th Madhi, the Mahdi Hatters


https://www.thoughtco.com/who-is-the-12th-imam-3555177

Tal believes that there is a great conflict between Shia and Sunni and Iran and Saudi Arabia are the dominant nations of the 2 sects . He is not wrong. Before the Ayatolah asshola took over Iran ,the US built it's ME policy on the two pillars of balanced relations between the 2 nations .That ended when the Iran mullahs declared war on the US in 1979(a war they have not quit ). So the US threw it's support to the Saudi's . The emperor tried to change the equation by doing a big US surrender . His calculation was that if Iran became a regional hegemon then there would be no needs for us to be there . He miscalculated . Iran attacked us with SAMS paid for in US dollars .



This drone is reported to have been lost by its control source ? I have not seen that report

the 12ers ? They are the cult that runs Iran. They think the 12th Iman will return from the well he fell into and will restore greatness in Islam. I call followers of the 12th Madhi, the Mahdi Hatters

Thank you. Helpful info.


https://www.thoughtco.com/who-is-the-12th-imam-3555177


Tal believes that there is a great conflict between Shia and Sunni and Iran and Saudi Arabia are the dominant nations of the 2 sects . He is not wrong. Before the Ayatolah asshola took over Iran ,the US built it's ME policy on the two pillars of balanced relations between the 2 nations .That ended when the Iran mullahs declared war on the US in 1979(a war they have not quit ). So the US threw it's support to the Saudi's . The emperor tried to change the equation by doing a big US surrender . His calculation was that if Iran became a regional hegemon then there would be no needs for us to be there . He miscalculated . Iran attacked us with SAMS paid for in US dollars .

Thank you again. Good history lesson. I knew maybe one-third to one-half of this but not all of it. You and Tal are way ahead of me.

However, your conclusion about Obama's diplomatic efforts seem wrong. His trying to equalize the situation must have seemed worth a try. Iranian hegemony still seems to be the only thing to balance the Trump/Saudi gang. I think the current mess could have been avoided if Trump had not broken the agreement with Iran.



source ? I have not seen that report

CNN's Barbara Starr reported from the Pentagon that her sources there told her the drone was lost as it traversed the western border of Afghanistan apparently on a trajectory toward Iran. Yet to be confirmed.

CNN's Barbara Starr reported from the Pentagon that her sources there told her the drone was lost as it traversed the western border of Afghanistan apparently on a trajectory toward Iran. Yet to be confirmed.

After intensely searching all over the internet for the Starr CNN report, it's nowhere to be found. I know for a fact I heard and saw her saying this on the noon CNN news show.

After all the internet searching, I think this is what happened. In 2011, a similar incident occurred re a US drone and Iran. Reports for that event reveal Starr saying exactly what I claimed she said today. I think CNN ran that old clip as similar to today's drone event, but I came in in the middle and CNN then went to commercial after running the old clip. I mistakenly assumed it was current.

My apologies to all.

It never works out well when two hardliners square off, and since scuttling the nuclear deal and tightening the noose around Iran fireworks are inevitable at some point after throwing the "moderates under the bus. The Iranians aren't the real problem, it's that radical Revolutionary Guard with Vlad behind them that's the real problem. Yes and the dufus should know them rather well also,

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/3/6/14827604/trump-tower-baku

I was thinking the western border of Iran is quite a distance from the Gulf of Hormuz. It is possible that it strayed ;but the distance being disputed is about 17 miles .

17 miles is nothing for an drone that tops 300MPH easily when cruising.

It would be easier if Trump could do some talking instead of postering. This is a great opportunity for reelection, he will be seen as a war president. If only the world wasn't hostage to US internal politics, but not a statesman in sight

He just gave the military the green light for strikes on Iran but called it off at the last minute. I'm no fan of Iran especially the Revolutionary Guard, but attacking without being attacked crosses a line for me even if he was faking.

The Iranians gave the GPS coordinates showing the drone was within the nautical miles allowed for Iranian territory. The Americans gave different GPS coordinates showing the drone shot down 21 miles off the Iranian coast in international waters. The disputed difference is 9 miles.

Can additional GPS coordinates be given by other countries? Is there an absolute certainty when it comes to GPS coordinates?

We are playing brinkmanship again, just because you have abig stick doesn't mean someoneelse can't fight

attacking without being attacked I guess shooting missiles at one of our military assets doesn't count as an attack.

We should institute Operation Praying Mantis immediately .

Like you said before, 17 miles distance isn't a lot especially if you retaliate with even more shock, awe, and destruction. Not that I take Iran's version of events as truth, but I doubt they retaliate with boats, planes or soldiers either after an attack. I have no doubt they will retaliate.

but I doubt they retaliate with boats, planes or soldiers either after an attack They use proxy terrorists . You know that.

I know that but does the dufus know? I surely hope so, because that means boots on the ground and not boats, especially if those proxy terrorist terrorize in another country. Shoot first and asking questions later is a great escalation tool not a solution.

I think the current mess could have been avoided if Trump had not broken the agreement with Iran.


It’s hardly surprising that the Iranians are trying to sound as bellicose as possible, hoping their threats and the terrorist tactics that they have regularly employed for the last 40 years would scare the administration into backing down. Equally unsurprising is that those who backed Obama’s deal, are, like the Iranians, framing the issue as a choice between war and appeasement in the form of a weak agreement that did not accomplish what its defenders claimed for it.

That has always been a false choice.

Shoot first and asking questions later is a great escalation tool not a solution.

You cast Trump as reckless regarding Iran, and then he counsels restraint and proportionality so you say he's indecisive .

You cast Trump as reckless regarding Iran, and then he counsels restraint and proportionality so you say he's indecisive .
He suddenly realized that following up on his impulsive reaction and getting into a war would mess up his reelection in 2020.

But I have been hearing the argument on this posting that this whole exercise is a wag the dog effort by him to enhance his 2020 bid So which one is it ?

It’s hardly surprising that the Iranians are trying to sound as bellicose as possible, hoping their threats and the terrorist tactics that they have regularly employed for the last 40 years would scare the administration into backing down. Equally unsurprising is that those who backed Obama’s deal, are, like the Iranians, framing the issue as a choice between war and appeasement in the form of a weak agreement that did not accomplish what its defenders claimed for it.

That has always been a false choice.

That's not how I framed it so to be clear an agreement on nukes certainly opens a door for more agreements which is the purpose of diplomacy. Its never been about appeasement or war since both sides get something if not all they want. When the dufus withdrew us from a negotiated 5 country deal he basically erased years of efforts and has to start from scratch which he initiated by locking down the screws to there economy, and adding the siege military tactic like the Iranians will be forced to capitulate to abject surrender under those terms.

Negotiating from a position of strength? Naw, Iranian proxies would never join such capitulation.


But I have been hearing the argument on this posting that this whole exercise is a wag the dog effort by him to enhance his 2020 bid So which one is it ?

You certainly can't rule that out now can we?

But I have been hearing the argument on this posting that this whole exercise is a wag the dog effort by him to enhance his 2020 bid So which one is it ?
Someone clued him in that Iran could do tremendous damage to the US in all sorts of ways.

Its never been about appeasement or war since both sides get something if not all they want.

Desperate for a deal at any price, Obama also reneged on his re-election campaign promise that Iran would be forced to give up its nuclear program and, in exchange for a temporary pause in their activity to build a bomb, ended the sanctions and even agreed to a “sunset clause.” When the pact expires, Iran will be able to get its weapon anyway.

Iran agreed to negotiate a deal with Obama only when he agreed to recognize the right of Iran to undertake nuclear research and develop nuclear capability. US president Donald Trump is merely re-implementing sanctions previously imposed on Iran.


That's not how I framed it so to be clear

Obama and Kerry, claimed the only choices available were either war or their deal.

What makes a superpwer super is power. If we don't use it, whats left? Iran believes they will destroy us and acts on that conviction every day. We...seek nagoteations.

Someone clued him in that Iran could do tremendous damage to the US in all sorts of ways.

no ,he heard that there could be over 100 people killed in the strike being contemplated and determined that was not proportionate to the loss of a drone . What could Iran do if we decided to go all out on them ? Please .The leadership is hanging on by a thread now because the sanctions are working . That is why they are desperate to do something like blow up tankers and take pot shots at drones. Me ? I want to crater mark the whole coast line . But even I realize that the best course is to do even more tightening of the economic noose.

You are almost as good as the dufus at creating spin. I think it was a head fake from the beginning and he had no intention of such an action. Great talking points to show off his compassionate restraints for the news cycle though as everyone except you Tom, and Bolton gives a BIG sigh of relief. It worked on most people I supposed. He showed his control over a contrived situation.

Sort of like his tomahawk attack in Syria. All show nothing but dust, but shows he is locked and loaded and ready to go. Mission Accomplished for the weekend anyway for the orange butt drama queen.

You really believe there was no casualty assessment during the early planning stages?

You are almost as good as the dufus at creating spin. I think it was a head fake from the beginning and he had no intention of such an action. Great talking points to show off his compassionate restraints for the news cycle though as everyone except you Tom, and Bolton gives a BIG sigh of relief. It worked on most people I supposed. He showed his control over a contrived situation.


Obviously! He took the whole schtick right out of a West Wing episode. Just look at his expression telling the tale - he acts it out with quotes from his "Generals".

The timeline is disputed between Trump and the military.

All show nothing but dust, but shows he is locked and loaded and ready to go
Tell that to the 200+ Russian green shirts that got wasted from an American attack in Syria.

https://taskandpurpose.com/russian-mercenaries-syria-leaked-audio

When the dufus withdrew us from a negotiated 5 country deal he basically erased years of efforts and has to start from scratch

Yah, Never mind the 40+ years Obama tried to erase.


Just at the moment when even tougher sanctions might have tightened the noose on the regime and forced it to abandon its nuclear quest as well as its support for terrorism, Obama reversed course. He chose not only to go for a narrow deal that ignored every issue but the nuclear one. Obama's deal encouraged Iran to become even more aggressive in its use of terror and its quest for regional hegemony.


the purpose of diplomacy. Its never been about appeasement or war

Coercive Diplomacy, That is the only Diplomacy that entire region understands/respects.

Tell that to the 200+ Russian green shirts that got wasted from an American attack in Syria.

https://taskandpurpose.com/russian-mercenaries-syria-leaked-audio

And your point would be what?


Yah, Never mind the 40+ years Obama tried to erased.

I'll bite 40 year history of what?


Just at the moment when even tougher sanctions might have tightened the noose on the regime and forced it to abandon its nuclear quest as well as its support for terrorism, Obama reversed course. He chose not only to go for a narrow deal that ignored every issue but the nuclear one. Obama's deal encouraged Iran to become even more aggressive in its use of terror and its quest for regional hegemony.

You mean 5 other signatory countries that went for the deal.


Coercive Diplomacy, That is the only Diplomacy that entire region understands/respects.

Don't like Arabs huh?

I'll bite 40 year history of what?

Sanctions.


Don't like Arabs huh?

They don't like each other. I have no problem with Arabs.

You are nuts if you think the Mussies want to be our Friends. Certainly your not suggesting that trump go back to the Deal "Deal"?

40 years of sanctions with no results? Didn't work in Cuba either. Time to change tactics.

Coercive Diplomacy, That is the only Diplomacy that entire region understands/respects.

What else are they suppose to learn while continuing to look at the barrel of the gun as a communication tool?
It is like this all over the Middle East. It is very sad, but true.

It is like this all over the Middle East. It is very sad, but true.
I wonder why.

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/64666944_10156013670722471_3004205043730612224_n.j pg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_oc=AQmHwKTpCq-rsUPZm0tLM_dc1W_oZLe3XIh4-dIlVYsZfQs8qDLuweaYCBD4enaI74E&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=d22853ffcde457680d0b5fd55440c8ca&oe=5D84C683

I wonder why.

Let me guess; Trump?
I don't think there is a way outa this? War is imminent!

US forces preparing to evacuate hundreds of contractors from Lockheed Martin and Sallyport Group from Balad military base in Iraq

Probably a good idea, evacuate everybody who could be caught up in this crap.

What are those people doing there anyway, Iraq is a hostile place

Capitalist are just as dangerous as terrorist. You've seen the damages they can inflict.

In an interview with Meet the Press,to air tomorrow, Trump said he doesn't want war with Iran, but if it comes to that, there would be "obliteration like you've never seen before."



WASHINGTON—President Trump bucked most of his top national-security advisers by abandoning retaliatory strikes in Iran on Thursday. In private conversations Friday, Mr. Trump reveled in his judgment, certain about his decision to call off the attacks while speaking of his administration as if removed from the center of it. “These people want to push us into a war, and it’s so disgusting,” Mr. Trump told one confidante about his own inner circle of advisers. “We don’t need any more wars.”

https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-bucked-national-security-aides-on-proposed-iran-attack-11561248602?mod=e2fb&fbclid=IwAR1Ymk5JRd0mY4gUVoGW1CDy4AQw8f0N4oXvKFoc-h8x2Oxm4_8imms0Z1s

Capitalist are just as dangerous as terrorist. You've seen the damages they can inflict.

Capitalists are as dangerous as terrorists??? Oh brother. You need to go live in some of those shining examples of socialist success like Venezuela, Zimbabwe, Greece, Italy, or Russia. About six months later you would wet your pants to get back to the U.S. and live with all of us capitalist terrorists.

About six months later you would wet your pants to get back to the U.S. and live with all of us capitalist terrorists.
That's why the masses are arriving at our southern border.

you know, so far Trump has done an excellent job of averting war, he has averted a war with NK, and now he has averted a war with Iran, he avoided a war in Syria and hasn't gone to war over Venezuela

you know, so far Trump has done an excellent job of averting war, he has averted a war with NK, and now he has averted a war with Iran, he avoided a war in Syria and hasn't gone to war over Venezuela
That's my point. If it were me ,I would've gone with the advice of John Bolton. But I have to admit it. He did not run as a hardliner ;he said he would not engage in foreign wars as much as his predecessor did .And so far he is keeping his word to the point that he engages in silly negotiations with Un-Kim .

He is having to clean up the mess left behind by Obama's absurd, ridiculous agreement with Iran in which he agreed to basically give them over 100 billion dollars, dial back on sanctions, and open the country to foreign investments, all in exchange for a paper thin agreement to roll back uranium enrichment. It was an outrageous concession that should never have been made. All of the Trump critics should begin with an acknowledgement that Obama completely mishandled the situation, but I doubt that will happen.

Obama's absurd, ridiculous agreement with Iran in which he agreed to basically give them over 100 billion dollars
It was Iran's money. The money came from Iranian oil sales and was piling up in some international banks in escrow accounts over the years.

It was Iran's money. The money came from Iranian oil sales and was piling up in some international banks in escrow accounts over the years.

Save your breath WG, because facts don't matter to the right wing loonies who are addicted to the red meat the dufus feeds them and you must admit they waited a long time to get someone to feed their crazy ideas.

It was Iran's money. He knew what Iran would do with the funds once they were released . A better idea would've been to use the money as compensation to all Iran's victims .

He knew what Iran would do with the funds once they were released . A better idea would've been to use the money as compensation to all Iran's victims .
Didn't matter what Iran would do. It was Iran's money.

It was Iran's money. The money came from Iranian oil sales and was piling up in some international banks in escrow accounts over the years.

What a sad, sad excuse. We have tens of billions of dollars belonging to Iran, so we just go out and give it to them and say, "Hey, if they use it to build nukes or commit acts of terror or military aggression, then it wasn't our fault. After all, it was their money."

Good grief. You don't hand money over to maniacs under any circumstances. If someone's family member ends up as a victim of terror, then I guess you can comfort them with those words.

Truth is, Obama did it, so it must be OK. Yet another Obama loving excuse. It gets old.

What a sad, sad excuse. We have tens of billions of dollars belonging to Iran, so we just go out and give it to them and say, "Hey, if they use it to build nukes or commit acts of terror or military aggression, then it wasn't our fault. After all, it was their money."

Good grief. You don't hand money over to maniacs under any circumstances. If someone's family member ends up as a victim of terror, then I guess you can comfort them with those words.

Truth is, Obama did it, so it must be OK. Yet another Obama loving excuse. It gets old.
When you bought your house, was the escrow money handed out to your future neighbors to prepay them for any faults you would perhaps commit or had committed elsewhere or to the local Baptist church to help others obtain a mortgage?

Think the dufus can obliterate the Iranians before they get one nuke built for the fleet in Gulfs? Or the vast network of terrorists they funded?

Truth is, Obama did it, so it must be OK. Yet another Obama loving excuse. It gets old.

Like Trump, you hate Obama and misrepresent whatever he said or did. It gets old.

"misrepresent whatever he said or did. It gets old.

How did I do that? I referenced what he did NOT do, not what he did.

How did I do that? I referenced what he did NOT do, not what he did.

Think about it.

Think about it.

In other words, you don't have the slightest idea.

In other words, you don't have the slightest idea.

Lol. There you go - back to the schoolyard comment again.

Again, think about it.

If you don't know, and you don't, then just admit it.

If you don't know, and you don't, then just admit it.

You're not thinking about it, are you? Come on, 'fess up.

Too juvenile.

We have tens of billions of dollars belonging to Iran, so we just go out and give it to them

Not really just "give it to them". More like, on the sly, underhanded. nobody was suppose to know about Dat!

Obama giveth a good deal and Trump Taketh away. Give em a Taste (false hope) of the good life then take it away...that's the way the Duke would've done it! It might even work.

Not really just "give it to them". More like, on the sly, underhanded. nobody was suppose to know about Dat!

Obama giveth a good deal and Trump Taketh away. Give em a Taste (false hope) of the good life then take it away...that's the way the Duke would've done it! It might even work.


In what universe do you think the good life existed in Iran before or after the Obama deal. Returning someone's money is not giving them anything. They conceded they would take a particular course of action but Dlckhead Trump decided no international treaty was safe from renegotiation because of his superior deal skills, non existent, because no better deals have been struck anywhere.

Returning someone's money is not giving them anything. They conceded they would take a particular course of action but Dlckhead Trump decided no international treaty was safe from renegotiation because of his superior deal skills, non existent, because no better deals have been struck anywhere.

A more basic reason is Trump's desire to reverse anything Obama did while president. Trump's understanding of the treaty is zero. Although Trump claims to be a genius, a better characterization of him is the one made by his former Secretary of State Tillerson as an "effin' moron".

Returning someone's money is not giving them anything.

There is no justification for giving billions of dollars to international outlaws. It's on the level of giving money to Hitler in 39 and using the excuse that it was, after all, the German's money, or returning money to the Soviets in the middle of the Cold War. We would have been well advised to hold the money until Iran completely disposed of their nuke program, and then give them back the money over a period of years, dependent on their good international behavior. Obama's liberal ineptitude was on full display with that deal.

There is no justification for giving billions of dollars to international outlaws. It's on the level of giving money to Hitler in 39 and using the excuse that it was, after all, the German's money, or returning money to the Soviets in the middle of the Cold War. We would have been well advised to hold the money until Iran completely disposed of their nuke program, and then give them back the money over a period of years, dependent on their good international behavior. Obama's liberal ineptitude was on full display with that deal.


You actually have no right to force Iran to do anything

You actually have no right to force Iran to do anything

I don't entirely agree with that, but even if I did, it would not excuse the U.S. participating in their mischief by sending money to them.

I don't entirely agree with that, but even if I did, it would not excuse the U.S. participating in their mischief by sending money to them.

Alllowing them to access their money is not giving them anything

The dufus is fighting everyone in the world practically both friend and foe and hasn't cut a deal yet. Nobody is coming to his side except his sideliners cheering him on here. Yeah I'm optimistic he will deliver or make things better (Sarcasm font lest you not understand). All this drama to make everybody forget what a dufus he is.

I mean what could be the purpose of all this public pablam and negotiating in front of a camera except to suck up all the TV time to promote himself in the middle of silly season. Seems before he moved the fleet and got his war plans he would make nice with the rest of the world community and gotten support instead of cowboy it alone. We don't get enough stuff ftom them to justify being the only force their so where is everybody else.

he just froze Iranian assets like they didn't learn a lesson from before about putting their money where we could get it. SHHEESH!

The dufus is fighting everyone in the world practically both friend and foe and hasn't cut a deal yet. Nobody is coming to his side except his sideliners cheering him on here. Yeah I'm optimistic he will deliver or make things better (Sarcasm font lest you not understand). All this drama to make everybody forget what a dufus he is.

I mean what could be the purpose of all this public pablam and negotiating in front of a camera except to suck up all the TV time to promote himself in the middle of silly season. Seems before he moved the fleet and got his war plans he would make nice with the rest of the world community and gotten support instead of cowboy it alone. We don't get enough stuff ftom them to justify being the only force their so where is everybody else.

he just froze Iranian assets like they didn't learn a lesson from before about putting their money where we could get it. SHHEESH!

It is all classic american rhetoric, sort of like an old cowboy movie, no marks for guessing who the dashing hero in the white hat is. We know how this ends, the cavalry arrives, the indians are annihilated, and the hero gets the girl. We are in the runaway horse phase at the moment while the outlaws plot

I couldn't have said it better. Now you know why you need so much popcorn for this made for TV politics. The dufus is a natural for the town boss running roughshod over the citizens. Or is he the horses a$$? Hard to tell sometimes.

Alllowing them to access their money is not giving them anything

It is beyond stupid to send money to tyrants. I don't care whose it is, if we give it to them, then we are participating in their crimes. It was Obama's greatest international gaffe, and now Trump is having to clean it up.

You mean that's worse than defending and selling guns to tyrant murderers of an American in Turkey? Whose cleaning up that mess? Or abusing migrant kids in El Paso? I guess defending Vlad on the global stage over our own intel community wasn't a very big gaff huh?

The crisis has been averted, Trump will sanction Iranian leadership as if they keep their money where he can get at it. So the Iranian leaders don't get to sip imported champagne or drive a big american SUV, I'm sure they will be disappointed. The way to get them to stop is to cut Saudi Arabia loose

Now that would be interesting, Saudi Arabia using it's own treasure and resources to defend it's own interests, instead of us. Problem solved recall the fleet.

You mean that's worse than defending and selling guns to tyrant murderers of an American in Turkey? Whose cleaning up that mess? Or abusing migrant kids in El Paso?

All of which was taking place under the Obama administration. Liberals were strangely quiet about it then.


Now that would be interesting, Saudi Arabia using it's own treasure and resources to defend it's own interests, instead of us. Problem solved recall the fleet.

Good point, especially now that we are petroleum independent.

ah there is still the military industrial complex and those weapon sales

Now that would be interesting, Saudi Arabia using it's own treasure and resources to defend it's own interests, instead of us. Problem solved recall the fleet. The US doesn't live with a dome of protection . What happens in the world affects us in many ways . It is naive to think that conflicts in the ME would not have an impact on us if we decided to retreat to fortress America . As you know ;our borders are in fact pretty porous .

The US doesn't live with a dome of protection . What happens in the world affects us in many ways . It is naive to think that conflicts in the ME would not have an impact on us if we decided to retreat to fortress America . As you know ;our borders are in fact pretty porous .

If you were to retreat you might have enough troops to defend your borders, you could then invade your neighbours and solve the problem

no thanks I'd just as soon not live in a country like Australia dependent on stronger nations for their security .

no thanks I'd just as soon not live in a country like Australia dependent on stronger nations for their security .

Exactly correct. That's why all the complaining and finger-pointing just has a hollow ring to it. And true of most of the world. They depend on us for defense, and then want to complain.

Our conservatives don't get your humor Clete. It was humor wasn't it? I LMAO!

Our conservatives don't get your humor Clete. It was humor wasn't it? I LMAO!


A lot of what I say is tongue in cheek Tal, but you are right americans don't get our sense of humour which is often sardonic



no thanks I'd just as soon not live in a country like Australia dependent on stronger nations for their security

You see the irony, Tom, is; your nation isn't the only one who would like to be our protector. I'm not sure who you are protecting us from, or, who we need to be protected from. We are very busy upgrading our navy and, of course, we are buying flying bricks from you. We don't have a large standing army it is true but we are not engaged in war as a way of life

We are very busy upgrading our navy

I'm sure the Chinese are greatly concerned now that you have gone from six rowboats to eight.

As you said. Sardonic humor. No offense intended.

yeah that's the dilemna ;who's sphere of influence do you want to be under ?

I'm sure the Chinese are greatly concerned now that you have gone from six rowboats to eight.

As you said. Sardonic humor. No offense intended.

No, we leave the row boats to you, our game is to catch fishermen and confiscate their boats, this has certain advantages. We arn't concerned about the chinese, they are busy with their neighbours and other boors

They take the long view . Haven't you heard about their 2050 plan ? I know we won't be around to witness it ,or maybe we will ... ;but ..............https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/leaders/chinas-30year-deadline-to-rule-the-world/news-story/70f62a5bc0e4580b83d5ca89a2479e94

Well don't say we didn't have fair warning.

They take the long view . Haven't you heard about their 2050 plan ? I know we won't be around to witness it ,or maybe we will ... ;but ..............https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/leaders/chinas-30year-deadline-to-rule-the-world/news-story/70f62a5bc0e4580b83d5ca89a2479e94

That is an old article Tom we have moved a long way since then

he made the address to the party 2 years ago about his 30 year plan. It is not that old .

he made the address to the party 2 years ago about his 30 year plan. It is not that old .

The content is somewhat out of date, right now he has a Trump to fry. Remember Hitler's thousand year reich and how long it lasted, I give Xi about the same

from your mouth to God's ears

That's the best warning his people get as to how much they get screwed for his agenda.

The chinese people are not being screwed, they are being lifted out of poverty in the socialist manner, I expect there are more millionaires in China than in the US. It is true they rush to invest in other places. Did you see that Trump has a plan to attract the best and brightest to US universities and residence? This will shore up the finances of those hallowed institutions. I'm wondering when Trump will announce his own belt and road initiative, you could lift the americas out of poverty and solve a few problems. A very fast train to Rio would be an executant start

Did you see that Trump has a plan to attract the best and brightest to US universities and residence
That should always be the number one visa priority .



A very fast train to Rio would be an executant start
a known failure of a policy . Trains were 19th and early 20th century technology . I can't believe how many people buy into this 'fast train ' panacea .

That should always be the number one visa priority .

a known failure of a policy . Trains were 19th and early 20th century technology . I can't believe how many people buy into this 'fast train ' panacea .

I think you miss the point, railways move freight quickly and economically, and where there are populations who don't have a romance with the automobile they are an effective means of transport. Take the train and hire a car at your destination. If there was a direct rail route I would use the car less, but then I grew up with trains, some people didn't

Clete we can barely take care of the old ragedy crumbling roads, bridges, and schools we have now, let alone think about new trains. If you can't blow something up, it's not even a budgetary consideration, especially if a few cents of raising tax dollars are concerned.

Clete we can barely take care of the old ragedy crumbling roads, bridges, and schools we have now, let alone think about new trains. If you can't blow something up, it's not even a budgetary consideration, especially if a few cents of raising tax dollars are concerned.

This stems from the idea that disbursement of power and responsibility is a desirable thing, but reality says that the locals don't have the resources. I would have thought roads, bridges, rail would be strategic infrastructure but your focus is on projecting power elsewhere. You criticise us for not having large military forces but we do have the ability to move around an area as large as the US without expecting parts of the system to fall down. Taxes are a means to an end, not an end in themselves and we are not burdened with local taxes. I was astounded when you indicated the size of your local taxes

This stems from the idea that disbursement of power and responsibility is a desirable thing, but reality says that the locals don't have the resources. I would have thought roads, bridges, rail would be strategic infrastructure but your focus is on projecting power elsewhere. You criticise us for not having large military forces but we do have the ability to move around an area as large as the US without expecting parts of the system to fall down.

The system of transportation in the U.S. is very good. The idea of allocating responsibilities to the states has worked extremely well. There is the occasional breakdown, but considering that we have almost fifteen times the population of the Aussies, and a population that is spread out over most of the country as opposed to being concentrated in a relatively small area, it is great.

The system of transportation in the U.S. is very good. The idea of allocating responsibilities to the states has worked extremely well. There is the occasional breakdown, but considering that we have almost fifteen times the population of the Aussies, and a population that is spread out over most of the country as opposed to being concentrated in a relatively small area, it is great.


Your population has been able to spread out because of the abundance of water, our population would have grown like yours if such resources existed but we have no great rivers draining the continent, the one long river system we have hardly has water in it in some places and it is not navigable, so our people live where water resources exist. You may be able to make the desert bloom but we cannot. However, with the land we have, we have done well, exporting food to the world as well as minerals. You should examine what a few determined people are capable of. One the one hand you lament your collapsing infrastructure and on the other hand, you say it is good. Make up your mind, then your politicians might be able to direct the resources to where you say it is needed. Your remarks demonstrate you don't understand our geography and the fact that we have large areas designated for native populations which are sparsely populated and undeveloped

However, with the land we have, we have done well, exporting food to the world as well as minerals. You should examine what a few determined people are capable of.

I absolutely commend you. You have, indeed, done well as have we. I do get tired of your nonstop criticism. I think you have enough problems in your own country to occupy your attention.


One the one hand you lament your collapsing infrastructure and on the other hand, you say it is good. Make up your mind

I have not lamented a collapsing infrastructure. Someone else might have, but I have not. I live in one of the poorest states, but our roads, bridges, rail lines, and airports are in good shape. Overall, our country's infrastructure is good, or at least it is as far as I'm aware.

I have not lamented a collapsing infrastructure. Someone else might have, but I have not. I live in one of the poorest states, but our roads, bridges, rail lines, and airports are in good shape. Overall, our country's infrastructure is good, or at least it is as far as I'm aware.

You should talk to Tal he has a different opinion



Originally Posted by talaniman https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?p=3837378#post3837378)
Clete we can barely take care of the old ragedy crumbling roads, bridges, and schools we have now

Tal and I have a different opinion on something??? Shocking!

railways move freight quickly and economically,

there is a nominal difference in cost and if you took in the infrastructure costs to making every town able to receive cargo by rail I'm willing to bet the cost becomes a disadvantage . There are very few cities in the US that have sufficient rail yards that could receive freight . Cities like NY only have rail for passenger movement . So you still have to add in the cost of road freight into your calculation because rail does not provide "to dock" or door to door service .

Here is NY infrastructer costs more because the price is inflated due to various corruptions. I travel to South Carolina sometimes .For the same money we use to patch pot holes ,they are building new roads and bridges .Imagine to infrastructure costs to build big freight hubs all across the nation where only a few exist now .

Even where they do exist ,it is a nightmare . Anyone from Chi town can tell you the horror of being around the 71s Street crossing where some people in cars wait up to 20 minutes for trains to pass. The gate at that junction is down sometimes 2 hours a day ..

Panama Canal is widened .Many cities on the east coast are dredging to be able to accept larger freighter . Sea transportation is still the best way to move large volumes of freight …..well that and pipelines for oil liquid gas and water .

We are talking trillions over years whatever the infrastructure plan is but states are struggling with their own infrastructure needs like broadband and the costs of fixing potholes in Mississippi, How about widening I-20 for gosh sakes JL?

and the costs of fixing potholes in Mississippi, How about widening I-20 for gosh sakes JL?

Potholes are not a major problem here, or at least not that I know of other than in our capital city which is run by a bunch of incompetent liberal democrats with the result that the people with money are fleeing the city along with their tax monies.

As to I-20, why would we want to widen it? I drive it frequently and I have never thought that it needed to be widened other than in the Jackson area where, you guessed it, it was widened several years ago.

Use to be the main drag when I visited peeps in the east. Terrible drive, worse at night. Glad they widened it though.

Use to be the main drag when I visited peeps in the east. Terrible drive, worse at night. Glad they widened it though.

I've driven a lot of interstate. 99% of them are good or better. The ones in our state are very good. They are repaving now in our city though the existing condition was not really a problem.

All the states have some form of leveraging their state budgets for projects both new and old and maintanance of existion infrastructure is an ongoing thing, be it potholes or just normal wear from the weather or usual traffic. Big trucks are brutal on roads.

if it isn't tankers in the Gulf it is tankers in the mediterranian, this may be the era of the tanker wars

All the states have some form of leveraging their state budgets for projects both new and old and maintanance of existion infrastructure is an ongoing thing, be it potholes or just normal wear from the weather or usual traffic. Big trucks are brutal on roads.



Then you have douches like il duce Andrew Cuomo who can't economically build a 2 mile rail project .

https://nypost.com/2019/07/02/the-laguardia-airtrain-project-is-a-truly-stupendous-waste/?utm_source=twitter_sitebuttons&utm_medium=site%20buttons&utm_campaign=site%20buttons



if it isn't tankers in the Gulf it is tankers in the mediterranian, this may be the era of the tanker wars it is legit to seize blockade runners

Skirting sanctions ain't good.

Skirting sanctions ain't good.

There appears to be only one nation on Earth who believes sanctions are an effective weapon. They are indeed a blunt instrument with consequences. You may remember that sanctions are what forced Japan into WWII. Admittedly their actions could not be permitted to continue but direct confrontation may have led to a better outcome.

Now the consequence of sanctions are playing out in the Gulf and oddly it is the UK that is on the front line. This is what comes of toadying to the US, you get yourself into a fight you haven't prepared for. The UK ceased to be a force east of Suez 70 years ago and the Iranians recognise this. The UK should have left the US Mediterranian Fleet to intercept that tanker because the US has no intention of protecting any vessel other than its own. Anyway this argument drones on

The UK should have left the US Mediterranian Fleet to intercept that tanker because the US has no intention of protecting any vessel other than its own.

First we interfere too much, and then not enough. And so it goes.

First we interfere too much, .

I'll go with that thought, you like the average bully, loud, in your face and when confronted you go to water

I'll go with that thought, you like the average bully, loud, in your face and when confronted you go to water

You're welcome for saving your rear ends during WW 2.

As they say, no good deed goes unpunished. It is my fond hope that the U.S. will say to the rest of the largely defenseless world, "Take care of your oil shipping lanes yourself. We're energy independent. Not our problem." A nuclear armed Iran would be our problem, but we don't need that oil.

Brit commandos are more than capable of retaking the vessels back . The question is ;has the civilized world stopped taking on the fight against piracy ?


If the choice is sanctions or allowing the 12ers to develop nukes then I'll attempt sanctions 1st . The only other option after that is war .

Just the latest escalation in a messy affair between entitled big mouths and thugs trying to rule the world. Pick a side, you lose. I wish it were as simple as just piracy.

You may remember that sanctions are what forced Japan into WWII. Admittedly their actions could not be permitted to continue but direct confrontation may have led to a better outcome.

What a warped distorted view of the history . The Japanese had imperial expansion on their mind when they put the chain of events into place. Japan's eyes were 1st on resource rich Siberia They had defeated Russia handily in 1905 in Manchuria .But Siberia was the prize. .They needed the resources because their expansion into China was proving to be more difficult that expected .In the summer of 1939 they attacked Russia on the Mongolia frontier .
In the climactic battle, August 20-31, 1939, the Japanese were crushed in a tank battle at
Khalkhyn Gol by Soviet General
Georgy Zhukov (who was also responsible for defeating the German invaders of Russia making him the greatest General in WWII). Once the Japanese were denied Siberia they had no choice but the look for resouces along the Pacific rim .The sanctions imposed on Japan were designed to prevent them the ability to get the resources to fuel their imperial expansion. They did not provoke war . They were designed to deny the Japanese the ability to continue war .

The same can be said of sanctions against Iran. Their pursuit of nukes is designed to make their ambitions for regional hegemony a reality .


The emperor gave Iran billions which they used to fund terrorism support their nuke and ballistic missile programs and for
domestic crackdown,. The apologists say it was their money. Ridiculous after 40 years of crimes against humanity, no one with a backbone or a conscience would give them a penny.

The apologists say it was their money. Ridiculous after 40 years of crimes against humanity, no one with a backbone or a conscience would give them a penny.

Well stated. It was possibly the dumbest move made by the Obama administration and completely inexcusable.

You're welcome for saving your rear ends during WW 2.

As they say, no good deed goes unpunished. It is my fond hope that the U.S. will say to the rest of the largely defenseless world, "Take care of your oil shipping lanes yourself. We're energy independent. Not our problem." A nuclear armed Iran would be our problem, but we don't need that oil.

That warped idea of history never gets old, does it? Japan had no intention of invading Australia. They had established their objectives and achieved them. Their problem was they lacked the resources to hold them. They knew your military strength was too great, even in 1941, they hoped to get you to negotiate, instead they infuriated you and what followed was a Pacific wide war which you happened to fight in our back yard to keep MacArthur safe

We don't buy oil from the middle east, certainly not Iran, so all of that is a side show, and you keep selling tickets to the conflicts you create

What a warped distorted view of the history .




The same can be said of sanctions against Iran. Their pursuit of nukes is designed to make their ambitions for regional hegemony a reality .









Tom, giving Iran their own funds was giving them nothing, just like they gave you nothing by signing the treaty. Trump recognised this, but disowning an international treaty is not the way to negotiate, even though it seems to be the only play Trump makes.

Forcing a soveriegn nation into poverty isn't the way to do it, it didn't work on Iraq

it didn't work on Iraq


and you know why the UN oil for food program failed ? Because our "partners" like Australia violated the terms . (Clete knows what I am referencing . Everyone else look up the AWB scandal) . Yeah if sanction programs are routinely violated by coalition partners : (especially by scum like UN
Secretary-General Annan,)
they are more likely going to fail. When the world stood in solidarity with a different sanction program , South Africans realized they had no choice but the give up their nuke program .




giving Iran their own funds was giving them nothing,

"their funds" was not available for them to use to fund their terror programs until the emperor gave them to the 12ers for hostage ransom . Those funds didn't belong to the 12ers .They belong to the people of Iran .They belong to the victims of the 12ers international crimes .

giving Iran their own funds was giving them nothing,

That's such a poor excuse. It's on the level of a parent giving their son his inheritance knowing full well he is a known terrorist and will use it to kill people. When we returned that money to Iran, we knew full well they were not simply going to use it to build schools.

That's such a poor excuse. It's on the level of a parent giving their son his inheritance knowing full well he is a known terrorist and will use it to kill people. When we returned that money to Iran, we knew full well they were not simply going to use it to build schools.

all you are proving is there has been more than one dill in the White House

and you know why the UN oil for food program failed ? Because our "partners" like Australia violated the terms . (Clete knows what I am referencing . Everyone else look up the AWB scandal) . Yeah if sanction programs are routinely violated by coalition partners : (especially by scum like UN
Secretary-General Annan,)
they are more likely going to fail. When the world stood in solidarity with a different sanction program , South Africans realized they had no choice but the give up their nuke program .




"their funds" was not available for them to use to fund their terror programs until the emperor gave them to the 12ers for hostage ransom . Those funds didn't belong to the 12ers .They belong to the people of Iran .They belong to the victims of the 12ers international crimes .

Are you still wrankling over being out maneuvered in that wheat deal. What's a little bribery in an arab country? And a South African bomb, be serious, Dem Kaffirs can barely feed demselves. mon What a boor


You have to get over Iran out maneuvering you in Iraq it is a matter of religion. What part of you ain't Shiite Muslim do you not understand?

all you are proving is there has been more than one dill in the White House

I think it demonstrated your contention was a poor one.

I think it demonstrated your contention was a poor one.

Really, what is your evidence?

You want evidence that giving money, for any reason (or pretense) to a country committed to violence and terrorism is a bad idea? Really??

You want evidence that giving money, for any reason (or pretense) to a country committed to violence and terrorism is a bad idea? Really??

Cut out the holier than thou, the US does it all the time. The US supported Saddam and he fell out of favour over Kuwait, that's what happens when you support a dictator because he is the enemy of your enemy. Obama was just a long line of expedience. I think we liked you better when you weren't imposing Pax Americana and don't do as I do, do as I say doesn't really cut it, the rest of us have a part to play in this world and as one of our Prime Ministers said, I did it my way

Cut out the holier than thou, the US does it all the time.

And you need to cut out the distractions. You know full well the topic was the particular instance of giving monies to Iran with them in the midst of malicious pursuits. The other instances you note are worth discussing, but they are not the present discussion. You try to make the Iranian deal out to be merely returning to them that which was theirs. True enough, but to give them so much as penny in the present circumstance was unwise in the extreme.

to give them so much as penny in the present circumstance was unwise in the extreme.

As maybe, but Obama did a number of unwise things including backing ISIS so let us not talk loudly about backing terrorists, it is an excuse and as I said holier than thou. What are the present circumstances. Is it Hamas, or Hezbollah that has your nose out of joint or is it that Iran helped put down ISIS or put down the american inspired insurrection in Syria. I think Trump and others fly a flag of convenience particularly in the middle east.

Let us see now GWB talked of an axis of evil, Iran, North Korea and someone else who escapes me for the moment, but your president is selective, he is pals with one regime and dispises the other. It is marvelous the influence Israel has on US policy

What are the present circumstances.
Is it Hamas, or Hezbollah

The present circumstances is that the 12ers regime in Tehran has been at war with the western world since 1979. Hamas and Hezbollah are foot soldiers for their regime . Asking that question is like asking which corp of an army you are at war with .



I think Trump and others fly a flag of convenience particularly in the middle east. And I have been consistent .They will continue to wage war against us until we submit ;or put them down.

Are you leaving out how the 12ers retook Iran after being exiled for years under the puppet shah who allowed western interest to rape pillage and plunder Iranian resources? Or the fact that Syria is the proxy for Vlad, and Iraq may as well be a state of Iran, which is warring with the dufus buddy the Saudi's for regional dominance? That makes the dufus the sheriff with as many hood rats on his side as there are he is trying to bully into compliance. You think the Saudi's and Vlad ain't thicker than thieves?

Maybe you should take a look at the map again. More enemies than friends. Put X on the ones we have raped pillaged and plundered before and you get a better picture.



And I have been consistent .They will continue to wage war against us until we submit ;or put them down.

The war you speak is waged in their land not ours. Check that map again.

Are you leaving out how the 12ers retook Iran after being exiled for years under the puppet shah who allowed western interest to rape pillage and plunder Iranian resources? Or the fact that Syria is the proxy for Vlad, and Iraq may as well be a state of Iran, which is warring with the dufus buddy the Saudi's for regional dominance? That makes the dufus the sheriff with as many hood rats on his side as there are he is trying to bully into compliance. You think the Saudi's and Vlad ain't thicker than thieves?

Maybe you should take a look at the map again. More enemies than friends. Put X on the ones we have raped pillaged and plundered before and you get a better picture.



The war you speak is waged in their land not ours. Check that map again.

You fellows have no sense of History, it is because you have only been around a couple of centuries. The people of Persia (Iran) ruled over these contested lands long ago and raised huge armies to challenge the puny states of Europe. They have not forgotten this even though they eventually lost. They are not cowed by your threats or your puny forces. They have no sense of what an air war might be, they are waging war out of small boats. The Muslims are not going to go away because you say so, I say step back and let the Saudi and Iran settle this themselves in the time honoured way and don't be their proxy

Even Vlad has made it no secret he wants to return to the Russian gory days of conquest and domination. You put your finger on the problem though Clete, sending armies somewhere to enforce domination, when you already economically dominate, and cripple, and are crushing your stated opponents, or in our case our allies opponents.

Everybody knows we don't do it for nothing as we have strong economic reasons like raping, pillaging, and plundering foreign resources for profit. Hey that's what capitalist do!

I know for a fact that the narrative about the Shah is a leftist lie . The country was modernizing under the Shah and the people were living a lot freer lives then they have had since .Everything they took for granted under the shah they have to do in secret today . There was no plunder .
What you call plunder was western companies investing money to develop Iran's resources ;building nationwide telecommunications infrastructures ;proper sewage systems .When I was there even the more affluent neighborhoods had open sewage running down the curbs . (I was there in 1976 and 1977 2 years before the revolution and the revolution was not perceptible . ) The exact opposite of plunder was happening . The Shah nationalized the energy sector from international interest .The Shah’s health corps eradicated malaria in the countryside, He modernized Iran’s rail infrastructure.


Under the Shah, the middle class constituted a majority of Iran’s population. Today Iranians are mainly lower income people.
It was the Shah's dream to deliver a modern country with a sustainable economic foundation and a humane and democratic social system along with individual freedoms, social justice, and economic democracy .
Bread was cheaper, foreign currency was cheaper, food items were cheaper and often subsidized for the poor .
Iran did become one of the Middle East’s most advanced and successful countries.
Look on the web The Iranian women dressed in skirts and jeans , They did not have to cover their head and faces . They were a freer people.
Women gained the vote and the right to divorce .

Yes Khomeini was exiled . What did his revolution bring ? a return to 14th century . When I was there the women did not have to fear persecution from the government . Yes there were still some back country mores in place in the villages . But the country was moving away from that .

Yes the shah was hardline on dissidents and the crack downs could be brutal . The people who did revolt were looking for more democracy and more freedom . The 12ers returned from exile and hijacked the revolution.

Same dynamic all over, western powers come in and things get better business wise, but not to everybody, then we find out the leader and his buddies got rich and workers didn't and the poor got poorer. That's what happens in Africa, the middle east, and even in India, and South and Central America. Not saying the new leaders are any better, many are corrupt or just RWL's (Right Wing Loonies) but authoritarian leaders all the same like Vlad, often sectarian like Saad, but that's the nature of 3rd world strongmen. I'll use your word...brutal, and why capitalist look the other way knowing full well that it goes on escapes me.

You got any other places with vast resources you want to transform in your image?

Marxist tropes are so boring .

So are capitalists tropes. Like the great economy with half of them in poverty.

Yes Tal you are right the economy is not great, it still rides on the backs of the poor, but then that is what capitalist imperialists do

Yes Tal you are right the economy is not great, it still rides on the backs of the poor, but then that is what capitalist imperialists do


Then how about this ---------


From AOC - What Is Called The "Extreme Left-wing Agenda"
https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/923274881197895680/AbHcStkl_x96.jpg (https://twitter.com/AOC)




(https://twitter.com/AOC)
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (https://twitter.com/AOC)

Jul 21
(https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1151868495824642049)
Reminder of what people are calling the “radical, extreme-left agenda”:

Medicare for All
A Living Wage & Labor Rights
K-16 schooling, aka Public Colleges
100% Renewable Energy
Fixing the pipes in Flint
Not Hurting Immigrants
Holding Wall Street Accountable

(ed. by Athos) Some of these are not clearly defined, but it's a start.

Yes Tal you are right the economy is not great, it still rides on the backs of the poor, but then that is what capitalist imperialists do

One can only wonder what the economy would have to do to be considered great. Lowest unemployment figures in decades, positive GDP growth, and rising wages. Yeah, that sure is pitiful.


Medicare for All
A Living Wage & Labor Rights
K-16 schooling, aka Public Colleges
100% Renewable Energy
Fixing the pipes in Flint
Not Hurting Immigrants
Holding Wall Street Accountable

Now there is just that little detail of how to come up with the tens of trillions of dollars needed to do that, bearing in mind that we cannot even come close to paying for what we have now, and there is no rate of taxation feasible whereby it can be done. So how will we pay for all this extra???

Why isn't the city of Flint responsible for fixing their own pipes, or at the very least the state of Michigan?

Why wouldn't "labor rights" include the right of a worker to negotiate his/her own wage rate, even if it is less than what liberals consider optimum, if that is what he/she is willing to work for?

The socialist agenda in now on open display.

One can only wonder what the economy would have to do to be considered great. Lowest unemployment figures in decades, positive GDP growth, and rising wages. Yeah, that sure is pitiful.

And half the population is poor and in some regions more than that, and the best economy in the world the minorities still have twice as high unemployment, least likely to attain the simple things like a house and the very last to have wage gains. Nice spin from the dominant culture and dufus sycophants. It's just more BS to use to elevate the dufus higher than he deserves while distracting us from the true picture.


Now there is just that little detail of how to come up with the tens of trillions of dollars needed to do that, bearing in mind that we cannot even come close to paying for what we have now, and there is no rate of taxation feasible whereby it can be done. So how will we pay for all this extra???

The obvious question is with such a great economy and rising wages has the party in power not done anything to cut the debt but have taken action to grow it and pocket it. Of course you expose your own ignorance of tax law and debt so cannot see how to reduce it except to stop spending which obviously ain't going to happen. Nor is a slight tax raise on rich guys who made the debt happen an option. Paying for the debt takes a longer view than just one year as you want, but here's an idea, Clinton balanced the budget on the back of military spending, and Reagan raised taxes when he needed funding. Hmm where is the lesson you should have learned but didn't?


Why isn't the city of Flint responsible for fixing their own pipes, or at the very least the state of Michigan?


They don't have the money for infrastructure projects. Repubs took over and stole it.


Why wouldn't "labor rights" include the right of a worker to negotiate his/her own wage rate, even if it is less than what liberals consider optimum, if that is what he/she is willing to work for?

Now you sound loony since you ignore the last few decades of union rights and gains destroyed by Big Biz and conservative capitalist that worship the right to have power over the workers. Voluntary slavery, since I doubt the boss will negotiate YOUR salary when he can hire a grog off the street who would love your job.


The socialist agenda in now on open display.

That's what repub dufus sycophants are saying so that makes you one too!

And half the population is poor and in some regions more than that, That is flatly, totally, 100% untrue by a mile and a half.


and the best economy in the world the minorities still have twice as high unemployment, least likely to attain the simple things like a house and the very last to have wage gains.

And have a 70% out of wedlock birth rate that is responsible for more negatives than we can keep track of. It is also the one great thing black America could easily fix that you don't like to talk about.


The obvious question is with such a great economy and rising wages has the party in power not done anything to cut the debt but have taken action to grow it and pocket it.

Completely correct. Of course, it was also true of Obama.


Of course you expose your own ignorance of tax law and debt so cannot see how to reduce it except to stop spending which obviously ain't going to happen. Nor is a slight tax raise on rich guys who made the debt happen an option.

OK. Let's hear your plan. How do we raise an extra tril in tax revenue? Be specific.


Paying for the debt takes a longer view than just one year as you want, but here's an idea, Clinton balanced the budget on the back of military spending, and Reagan raised taxes when he needed funding. Hmm where is the lesson you should have learned but didn't?

Only in this fantasy world in which you live have I ever suggested paying off the debt in one year. Where in the world do you get these crazy ideas?

I give Clinton and the republican Congress credit for three budgets with surpluses. Reagan never had a balanced budget. On the whole he lowered taxes, especially in 81 which started an enormous economic revival. Turns out you are the one who needs to learn some lessons.

On the whole he (Reagan) lowered taxes, especially in 81 which started an enormous economic revival. Turns out you are the one who needs to learn some lessons.


Speaking about learning lessons - Reagan was a serial tax raiser - 11 times - and almost tripled the federal deficit. He backed away from his early tax cut when the result was a disaster.

Don't use words of which you don't know the meaning of - like socialism.

You're opposed to a living wage? (It's already being done as states raise to $15/hour). Fixing Flint's water? Renewable energy? Etc.

Instead of complaining before these ideas are presented, why not wait until the conversation starts and contribute ideas as to how they can be done. Isn't that what you're supporting? The pols working together?

Speaking about learning lessons - Reagan was a serial tax raiser - 11 times - and almost tripled the federal deficit. He backed away from his early tax cut when the result was a disaster.

Think again. Learn.

https://files.taxfoundation.org/legacy/docs/Reagan%20tax%20cuts%20and%20revenue.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reagan_tax_cuts
This link includes this: "The first tax cut (The Economic Recovery Tax Act of 1981) among other things, cut the highest Personal Income Tax rate from 70% to 50% and the lowest from 14% to 11% and decreased the highest Capital Gains Tax rate from 28% to 20%. [1]
The second tax cut (The Tax Reform Act of 1986) among other things, cut the highest Personal Income Tax rate from 50% to 38.5% but decreasing to 28% in the following years [2] and increased the highest Capital Gains Tax rate to 28% from 20%."

So the general trend was extensive tax cuts. Tax rates went down while revenue went up, but spending went up even faster with the result that deficits grew.

https://www.heritage.org/sites/default/files/~/media/images/reports/b_1544_chart_1lg_4/taxcuts2002.jpg



Don't use words of which you don't know the meaning of - like socialism.

You don't have the slightest idea what my understanding of "socialism" is.


You're opposed to a living wage? (It's already being done as states raise to $15/hour). Fixing Flint's water? Renewable energy? Etc.

I'm opposed to you imposing your wage ideas upon others. Your idea will basically do away with a lot of lower income jobs, teen-age employment, and entry level positions. Worst of all, it does away with a person's right to work for whatever wage they find acceptable.

I'm all for Flint fixing Flint's problems, or Michigan if they can talk them into it. I have no idea why fed taxpayers should have to pay for that other than to buy votes for democrat candidates.

I'm all for any renewable energy that is economically and practically feasible. Unfortunately, other than hydro and possibly geo-thermal, which are both very limited, there are none. And your idea was to go 100% renewable, which raises the question of what we do at night when the wind is not blowing. Got an answer for that???


Instead of complaining before these ideas are presented, why not wait until the conversation starts and contribute ideas as to how they can be done. Isn't that what you're supporting? The pols working together?

Uhm...I hate to have to be the one to tell you this, but you started the conversation in your post above. If you don't want your democrat ideas to be discussed, then don't bring them up.

You want me to contribute my thoughts on how to do these loony ideas? Easy. Don't do them other than, possibly, the last two. I'm all for humane treatment of illegals, but I think we are pretty much at that point now. But if not, then fine, let's make it better. And I'm not sure how Wall Street needs reforming, but I'm open to hearing your ideas on it.

We know now your idea of working together is only so much noise.

It can't start from the proposal of, "Let's talk about how to implement my ideas."

Repubs always cut taxes mainly because they benefit the rich which is supply side economics, or trickle down economics. It never works for main streeters, and has always created debts and left control of the money flow in the hands of the rich, resulting in deficits for taxpayers and many people either in abject poverty, or working poor. A capitalist with wealth and investments embraces this economic model, while passing the risks and downsides to US the ordinary American consumer. Why do you think that they are trying to undermine the Consumer Protection Agency? Why do they insist on keeping wages really low and leverage job creation to take from YOUR local tax base?

So while you worry about teen ager jobs, the 24 year old just married has to take those jobs to feed a family. Government alone cannot solve the wage/wealth disparity, it takes a wholesale restructuring of the profit before people business model, embraced and abetted by the right. Love to see your evidence to the contrary that half of America lives below the poverty line, and most are working poor.

That would blow your great economy BS out of the water so when you disagree, how about the data and some thoughtful ACCURATE analysis for a change. Just saying it's so because you say so doesn't cut it or keep those vast majority of Walmart works off the public dole. LOL, I can't believe you think full time workers on welfare is no big deal.

To the subject of this thread though the tensions and actions in the gulf between Iran and the dufus is steadily escalating and bringing the Europeans of their fence.

That would blow your great economy BS out of the water so when you disagree, how about the data and some thoughtful ACCURATE analysis for a change.

Where was your data? I'd especially like to see your data (not emotional rhetoric) demonstrating this is not a great economy. If Obama had done this, you'd be singing his praises. We ought to thank God every day to have an economy like this.


So while you worry about teen ager jobs, the 24 year old just married has to take those jobs to feed a family. Government alone cannot solve the wage/wealth disparity, it takes a wholesale restructuring of the profit before people business model, embraced and abetted by the right.

Don't get all steamed up. You want data? About 2% of workers earn minimum wage. Most people who earn minimum wage are in entry level jobs or working part-time such as teens looking for work. The best thing for wages is low unemployment which causes competition for good employees and makes it much easier for good workers to get paid more.

And yeah, unlike you I am concerned about the teenager who would like to work a part time job and learn some job skills. That was me fifty years ago and it was a great experience for me. It just amazes me how you libs can so casually talk about, "while you worry about teen ager jobs." It makes me wonder what world you are living in. Where I live, teens need those jobs.

The US ia again preparing for all out war in the ME, boots on the ground with the recommissioning of a major base in Saudi Arabia. Let us just reprease this for a moment, when the the Saudi territory was used it spawned an attack on US soil and there are still large numbers of religious fanatics out there who don't want their holy ground desecrated by even the footfall of an infidel

Where was your data? I'd especially like to see your data (not emotional rhetoric) demonstrating this is not a great economy. If Obama had done this, you'd be singing his praises. We ought to thank God every day to have an economy like this.

It's actually the same economy except the dufus made the rich richer, and is trying to make the poor poorer with his assult through the courts on poor peoples health care, after failing to repeal Obama care through the legislature, and NO ONE has seen the replacement, because there is NONE. That's just one example to illustrate the difference policy makes, since Obama care basically affects all the poor and working poor, especially kids and the elderly and a huge economic driver.


Don't get all steamed up. You want data? About 2% of workers earn minimum wage. Most people who earn minimum wage are in entry level jobs or working part-time such as teens looking for work. The best thing for wages is low unemployment which causes competition for good employees and makes it much easier for good workers to get paid more.


While many states have raised the minimum wage and dragged companies along with the changes, wages increases and prices rising go well into wiping out any gains, and while the official numbers all say 40 some millions of people in poverty, there are just as many who are not even part of the count. Any job that cannot put a roof over your head or care for family isn't a decent job and if you still need welfare and working something is wrong with that picture.

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2018/07/16/wages-poverty-america


And yeah, unlike you I am concerned about the teenager who would like to work a part time job and learn some job skills. That was me fifty years ago and it was a great experience for me. It just amazes me how you libs can so casually talk about, "while you worry about teen ager jobs." It makes me wonder what world you are living in. Where I live, teens need those jobs.

So do their parents my friend. How do conservatives forget about them in the first place?

While many states have raised the minimum wage and dragged companies along with the changes, wages increases and prices rising go well into wiping out any gains
Oh please, another tired hackneyed argument, raising minimum wages raises prices and guess who looses the most out of that, the middle class who can afford to pay. So tell me does it raise prices over the entire economy or only in those states where wages have risen? I know where the effect is felt most and it is in the pockets of the poor because their spending is discretionary and not on the luxury goods they cannot afford so suck it up

You should investigate which industries raised wages and which industries raised prices and how much of that increase is not due to increased wages but Trump's darling tariffs which do far more damage

I'm calling B/S on this one

I'm calling B/S on this one and it is a perfect example of the' do as I say ' posting . Somehow this exchange happened here even though it is clearly a posting about Iranian aggression in the gulf .

and it is a perfect example of the' do as I say ' posting . Somehow this exchange happened here even though it is clearly a posting about Iranian aggression in the gulf .

Yes Tom and I didn't take it off topic but sometimes you have to refute nonsense

Prices always go up and that's just the capitalist Big Biz growth model because buying lawmakers has gotten more expensive and workers want more money too! Not saying the antics of the dufus don't add to the chaos, or prices, but it ain't BS that the 90% of us ain't that happy with the economics.

Let me just ask then Clete if wages have not gone up for workers in years, why did prices go up?

but it ain't BS that the 90% of us ain't that happy with the economics.

That's actually one of the best examples of BS I've seen in a long time.

You don't want no mo' money?