JL said recently in this thread, "Infants have no sin."
That's very incorrect. Among other verses, Ps. 51:5 refutes that with, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me." Beginning at the moment of birth, babies are total id, total wanting, demanding, selfishness, me, me, me.

Just depends, from your point of view, on how you want to kill a human being. My recommendation is either abstinence or the rigorous use of effective birth control, and above all to honor life.

We agree. How to make others honor life may take some doing though.


Like I said, that's the philosophy of the man whose wife or daughter was not raped. But one way or the other, to look at hundreds of thousands of deaths a year and just shrug your shoulders and say, "Hey. It's just not a perfect world, so live with it," is not enough for me. The slave owners could have said basically the same thing.

Not sure I understand you, but neither of can control anyone else's actions. Nor do I see your point of slavery since it's historic facts that slavery was legal and owners could do whatever they wanted with them. A war changed that and that struggle continues.


No, your logic is to let people make their own decisions and then force taxpayers to pay for the consequences.


Again a matter of LAW and obviously again you are outvoted.


Liberal orthodoxy strikes again. And I wish you would stop repeating your intentional lie that I am suggesting abstinence as a mandatory obligation. I've never said that and you know it.

Call it what you want, I ain't jumping on that bandwagon whatever your intentions, or my misreading of it.


To repeat, I am glad I don't live in a world where I can look at the pic I posted above and say, "Oh well. No big deal." I just can't fathom that kind of thinking.

It is a big deal. I'm not for abortion. It's not the only thing I am not for, but I just don't rant and rave as you do about what I'm not for. I guess we both are powerless to make others do the right thing as we see it.


Nope. Never suggested that killing non-combatants is fine and dandy. Besides, the people killed in the attack on the consulate were male terrorists. What women and children are you talking about???

Never said you did, but you raised a stink about our losses in Benghazi, 3 of whom were armed and trained for battle. No its not fine that collateral damages occur but foolish to think that there will never be none. Other engagements in these armed conflicts have resulted in those deaths of women and children and MEN non combatants and it's hypocrisy to think you can pick just one of many tragic outcomes.

In many conflicts they use women and kids as suicide bombers or shields. How do you tell them apart? There has always been and will always be collateral damage in armed conflicts and we may not like it, but it's just sad reality.

It is a big deal. I'm not for abortion. It's not the only thing I am not for, but I just don't rant and rave as you do about what I'm not for. I guess we both are powerless to make others do the right thing as we see it.

I fully understand. It is a busy world with many problems to solve. When I look at the pictures I posted above, it just moves abortion to the front of the line. I don't know what it is going to take to stop it. I can't say I'm hopeful, but I am not hopeless either.


In many conflicts they use women and kids as suicide bombers or shields. How do you tell them apart? There has always been and will always be collateral damage in armed conflicts and we may not like it, but it's just sad reality.

Very true. We should thank God every day that we are not in that situation in the United States.

That's very incorrect. Among other verses, Ps. 51:5 refutes that with, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me." Beginning at the moment of birth, babies are total id, total wanting, demanding, selfishness, me, me, me.

Good point. The scripture above is usually thought to mean that we are all born with a propensity towards sin, but not an awareness of sin or of wrongdoing, so the sin is not intentional. Now when does a child become accountable for intentional disobedience of God? Good question. I don't know that there is an exact age, but it certainly would not be at infancy.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/30/us/politics/mueller-barr.html



The letter adds to the growing evidence of a rift between them and is another sign of
the anger among the special counsel’s investigators (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/03/us/politics/william-barr-mueller-report.html?module=inline)
about Mr. Barr’s characterization of their findings, which allowed Mr. Trump to wrongly claim he had been vindicated.


Now we know why Barr REALLY doesn't want to testify before comgress tomorrow.

Human death is the result of sin. Unborn babies can die. Therefore they are sinful and infected with sin, even if not personally sinners.

Well that explains everything except why you religious types keep jacking a politics thread. Enough of this you got anything to say about our lying cheating government or NOT?

Well that explains everything except why you religious types keep jacking a politics thread. Enough of this you got anything to say about our lying cheating government or NOT?

Difficult when people don't want to talk about what you want to talk about. It is all about which argument they can't get satisfaction about. What did the words of the song say " I can't get no satisfaction". I think we all know Trump is a blight upon the nation for those who aren't in government, and the thought of mister blown in the wind Biden in the seat, well I pity you. Bolshevik Bernie might be a real change. But the reality is you really should stop killing people, whether it is the unborn, the victims of your wars, or the victims of your gun culture. Other nations can do it, why can't you. You cannot say yours is no nation for old men. Do you have any younger capable people or is it they just don't have any money?

Human death is the result of sin. Unborn babies can die. Therefore they are sinful and infected with sin, even if not personally sinners.

Prone to sin, yes. Held responsible is another matter.

Should Barr and the dufus be held responsible for their LIES to the American people or does the religious types ignore the current status of affairs? The obviously COLLUDED and CONSPIRED to deceive the public.

Should Barr and the dufus be held responsible for their LIES to the American people or does the religious types ignore the current status of affairs? The obviously COLLUDED and CONSPIRED to deceive the public.

I thought he colluded with the Russkies? Now they colluded and conspired to deceive the public? When did that become a crime? And if it is, then no one is more guilty that Mr. Obama. So should he be held responsible as well?

That's your excuse for letting the dufus and his sycophants stink up the government? Of course he colluded with the Russians, and now he is colluding with Barr to cover his butt. Just because it's not a crime doesn't make it right. If HC and Obama done wrong does that relieve you of admitting wrong is being done NOW? We have known repubs are totally incompetent to bring wrong doing to an account, I hope the dems do better.

Just a gripe that never ends. Trump is about the most naïve candidate to ever be elected or so you would think.

The obviously COLLUDED and CONSPIRED to deceive the public.


What Politician doesn't practice deception?



Deceiving others. That is what the world calls a Romance.
(Oscar Wilde)

Such is the world, Brother.

GET TRUMP!!!

Good question. The issue revolves around the guilt of sin. We need a Savior to absolve us of our sin guilt before God. Unborn children have no sin. Infants have no sin. Now when do children reach the age where their awareness of sin would make them accountable before God is a good question. So far as I know, the Bible never directly addresses it, but there are several scriptures that, at least indirectly, refer to it. Dt. 1:39 says, "And as for your little ones, who you said would become a prey, and your children, who today have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in there. And to them I will give it, and they shall possess it." Here are many other texts should you care to look at them. But one way or the other, we are not changing the subject here. The question, for your benefit, is this. What is the moral difference between killing an unborn child and killing a child that has been born?

https://www.openbible.info/topics/age_of_accountability


Sorry I hijacked this thread. I didn't read the whole thing before posting.

To continue, I will start a new thread and call it - Abortion, Guilt, Sin and Hell, etc., ethttps://www.askmehelpdesk.com/clear.gifc (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3834198)., etc.

Of course he colluded with the Russians,

Your dem friend Mueller concluded otherwise.

Mueller found no evidence of CRIMINAL conspiracy or coordination as outlined in his summation of volume I. He stated because he found none it doesn't mean there was none He never addressed collusion, because as stated in said volume, there is no term in law that defines such a term. He concluded though that both the campaign and the Russians both expected to benefit from the Russian actions during the election campaign. He lays out the events and actors that occurred which is more that 100 cases of contacts between the campaign and the Russians, so in fact the NO COLLUSION meme by Barr and the dufus is patently false.

I have already quoted the reasons Mueller gave for not bringing charges against the dufus because DOJ policy expressly prohibits it. I am sure more facts will come to light as the congress does it's job despite obstructions, stalling, and challenges from the WH and his minions.

Mueller found no evidence of CRIMINAL conspiracy or coordination

I have already quoted the reasons Mueller gave for not bringing charges against the dufus because DOJ policy expressly prohibits it.

So which way is it? Did he not bring charges because of no evidence of criminal activity, or because of DOJ policy?

BOTH, they are not mutually exclusive and he sites and documents specific incidence that were inconclusive because of witness failure to recall, or facts deleted due to an app that doesn't retain specific communications. Lets be clear, there is NO exoneration of collusion, or obstruction. The first section outlines very clearly and specifically relates the actions of dufus campaign members and officials. You should read it yourself.

I'm watching Barr's senate hearing now and must point out that Chairman's Grahams opening statement was not about the report, but about HC, while co chair Feinstein ran down the list of the report summary. I also should point out the outstanding investigations farmed out to several jurisdictions for further criminal and civil actions.

they are not mutually exclusive

They are not mutually exclusive? OK. Explain to me how there can be no evidence of criminial activity, and yet you say there are no charges brought because of DOJ policies. How can you bring charges when there is no evidence of criminal activity?

That's the DOJ policy, he didn't say there was no evidence, just not enough that rises to the level of criminal conspiracy definitively with the Russians. Disregard Barr's assertion that there was no collusion, no obstruction and read the report. Inconclusive was the word I used to describe Mueller's conspiracy "evidence". I think Mueller is bending over backwards to be fair to the president.

Please forgive me my friend, I have been distracted by the events in Venezuela, as it's being reported that 25, 000 Cuban troops have been sent there and Russia and China are raising heck over our interference in a foreign country, and thanks for being gracefully enough to stick with the original subject.

Much appreciated.

just not enough that rises to the level of criminal conspiracy definitively with the Russians.

So are you saying that charges can be brought when the evidence of criminal, in this case conspiracy, is not sufficient?

NO, they cannot be brought against a sitting president according to DOJ policy.

NO, they cannot be brought against a sitting president according to DOJ policy.

In this case, charges were not filed, according to your analysis, because of a lack of evidence. If that is the case, then DOJ policies are irrelevant in this instance.

How so, I don't follow you.

No charges were filed because, you said, there was not sufficient evidence. That is the reason. It doesn't matter what DOJ policies are if there is not enough evidence, and that, you said, was the case, so the issue is closed from a criminal point of view BECAUSE OF LACK OF EVIDENCE.

No criminal charges as far as conspiracy, but the obstruction remains an open question. You can still have abuse of power and other high crimes and misdemeanors as lesser charges besides conspiracy. You never know where an investigation leads. Collusion may yet still be on the table. The Barr testimony today before the senate was shocking in that he testified he never even read the underlying findings before he exonerated the dufus of collusion and obstruction so I'm trying figure out HOW that is even possible. Even with no charges he went so far as to say the prez was wrongly accused in the first place with so much documented probable cause laid out, and signed off by Rosenstein, and documented by Mueller's report.

Baffling, but just focus on the actual congressional testimony is my suggestion as Barr appears before the House tomorrow. .

.

No charges were filed because, you said, there was not sufficient evidence. That is the reason. It doesn't matter what DOJ policies are if there is not enough evidence, and that, you said, was the case, so the issue is closed from a criminal point of view BECAUSE OF LACK OF EVIDENCE.


THERE WAS PLENTY OF EVIDENCE. In fact, Mueller cited ten instances of obstruction of justice. He did not file charges because Trump would not be able to defend himself. However, Trump is not protected from impeachment. So Mueller has given the House enough ammunition to impeach Trump.

Pelosi is against impeachment because the Senate is unlikely to convict. Many other Democrats, however, support impeachment because it is their duty and because the American public will then know what a sleaze Trump is and because a Senate trial will force Republicans to explain to their constituents why they voted against convicting such a crook.

the obstruction remains an open question.

I would agree with that, as the whole issue behind the FISA warrant remains an open question.


THERE WAS PLENTY OF EVIDENCE.


I was going on what Tal had said. You would have to read the whole discussion.

The real criminal activity is very likely to be what the FBI and the Obama admin did with the FISA warrant. Stay tuned.

Barr us refusing to appear before the House tomorrow and face questioning by the house counsel. Can't blame him since he wouldn't be able to run out the 5 minute clock with nonsense legalese and would be open to follow up questions. Will the senate interview Mueller?

I'd be careful about wanting those FISA warrants, you may get a lot more than you bargained for. Carter Page was cleared AGAIN because they found him an unwitting fool AGAIN.

Barr us refusing to appear before the House tomorrow and face questioning by the house counsel. Can't blame him since he wouldn't be able to run out the 5 minute clock with nonsense legalese and would be open to follow up questions
or the other take is that Nadler and co were taken to task by Candice Owens . What chance do they have against Barr ? Barr is answerable to the congressional committees due to the oversight functions. He does not have to answer to House council interrogations . Why should he ? You and I both know that the Dems love to put people under oath and then set up perjury traps . Let Nadler hold him in contempt . He wouldn't be the first AG held in contempt (see Eric Holder ) . Let them begin impeachment proceedings ....the biggest empty threat they have . Let Pelosi order the Sergeant at Arms with the Capitol police march to the RFK Dept of Justice building and try to arrest him . If Nadler wants Barr he had better set up more accommodating terms . And one more thing . The Dems should stop their bleating about him recusing himself . It aint going to happen. He is not a sniveling wimp like Sessions turned out to be .


Will the senate interview Mueller? I don't care . Barr has not opposed Mueller testifying ;but it is more likely that he will testify in the friendly confines of the House oversight committees .


I'd be careful about wanting those FISA warrants, you may get a lot more than you bargained for. Carter Page was cleared AGAIN because they found him an unwitting fool AGAIN. yeah and I'm sure the Dems will try to invoke national security /protecting resources etc. I say release all with the same due diligence given to the Mueller Dossier . But why are YOU so afraid of seeing them released ?

"Swamp" pretty well defines much of that place.

@Tomder

Our governmental war is a fascinating display of politics and the rule of law, and who has power. Obviously the dufus has a stall tactic that appears to be quite effective at this point, and the dems have few options other than a long protracted court battle to break this stalemate. Long term though if repubs hold the Senate and make gains in the House, the dufus can win, if he gets re elected. I remember Nixon's landslide didn't insulate him against impeachment though, and I don't see the dufus even coming close to that. Strange though we have repubs daring the dems to play the impeachment card which in effect would give them the full authority to expose a lot more than his tax returns, and brings back the collusion question

For sure repubs are betting the public does not read, or understand the Mueller Report, and obviously they will dismiss it and bury it best they can. To say it's a roadmap to impeach the dufus is an understatement. I think dems should just shut up and study the thing for themselves before they do anything else. Of course they won't, and that will be there biggest mistake. And they will prove their incompetence is as great as I have railed on the repubs about these many years.

@JL

The swamp has gotten swampier, and with a strong economy humming along the dufus hasn't gotten any more popular and palatable than when he took office, and the problem of a lack skilled workers and rising prices has yet to be addressed.

forget that . Their little conspiracy is unraveling . I want to know what FBI training does it take for an agent to become a honeypot .
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/02/us/politics/fbi-government-investigator-trump.html

That's no more worrisome than the notion The FBI sees stuff they should investigate and even to suggest the dufus should have no scrutiny at all, is to put him above the law. Like law enforcement never goes undercover to get the goods on ordinary citizens. You know better. Only dufus sycophants give a darn that facts come to light and questions should be answered.

I wonder why the thread where we were discussing abortion was deleted? Any ideas?

I wonder why the thread where we were discussing abortion was deleted? Any ideas?
I recently sent a PM to Curlyben, the admin, asking that same question.

probably for the same reason I did not join the discussion. Nothing new is said and the rhetoric gets heated . That would not be the first abortion discussion that has been deleted from this board .

probably for the same reason I did not join the discussion. Nothing new is said and the rhetoric gets heated . That would not be the first abortion discussion that has been deleted from this board .
It wasn't heated. It was fun and friendly -- JL, tal, waltero, and me.

It wasn't heated. It was fun and friendly -- JL, tal, waltero, and me.

All adults and respectful exchanges. Intense at times, but not mean. Oh well.

BTW, who is CurlyBen? Moderator?

Our governmental war is a fascinating display of politics and the rule of law,

I'm waiting for the board game to come out.


BTW, who is CurlyBen? Moderator?

I'm guessing he is the one who "shut ur down!"

We were getting too close to the truth. Old Curlybean Can't handle the truth.

Curlyben is the administrator. The head moderator. He's always been fair, so am wondering what's going on. Lots of spam lately.

There has been a lot of spam. I imagine it keeps him on his toes.

The Joe Biden debate drinking game ,

Take a drink every time he says:
FOLKS
Literally
Barack
Scranton
and a double for
“I’m not being facetious”

The goal for the other contestants tonight will be to take down Joe hard .Just like they did in the JV debate to Beto .

more ....'we're not trying to take away your guns '
and just plug the interveous tube when he says 'I'm just questioning your
JUDG~ E ~MENT "

The goal for the other contestants tonight will be to take down Joe hard .Just like they did in the JV debate to Beto .

Quote of the Night - Harris chastizing the others when everybody was talking at once so nothing got through -

"This is NOT a food fight!" Lots of approving laughter.

Can't they do this some other way?

why do it at all?

why do it at all?

It's one of several ways to help voters decide who to vote for.

Unless there is an exceptional performance it is a waste of time

Unless there is an exceptional performance it is a waste of time


I agree. The problem is there's no chance to really understand where a particular candidate is coming from - there's way too much busy-ness and too little time.

Even worse is the afterwards talking heads dissecting every little nuance (and not so nuances) uttered. These 24 hour cable shows are desperate for news fodder but there's rarely enough to satisfy the ratings maw with its insatiable hunger for material.

The truest thing Trump ever said was that he's a godsend for these cable news shows. Like watching a daily train wreck - morbid but fascinating. No, Trump didn't say that last part.

Quote of the Night - Harris chastizing the others when everybody was talking at once so nothing got through -

"This is NOT a food fight!" Lots of approving laughter.

and that did not stop it . At times the circular firing squad was un-listenable .

I couldn't bring myself to listen to it. I commend you, Tomder. Must have been quite an experience.

I take one for the team . They start the debates when I normally go to bed .

They start the debates when I normally go to bed .

Probably something symbolic in that, something akin to a message fit for people who are asleep.

It is quite a somnolent.

Harris went for the knock out blow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6-UC8yr0Aw

So Sen. Harris wants to resurrect busing. How encouraging.

Repubs get spared from the silly season debates this term. We all endure the dufus diatribes everyday since he burst on the scene though. That has to be the worst...and certainly is.

Democrats are now on record promising to raise our taxes, confiscate our guns, take away our health insurance, and open the borders with the promise of a lifetime of free welfare and heath insurance for illegal aliens.

You forgot the 20 acres and a mule!

You forgot the 20 acres and a mule!

Can I get the twenty acres without the mule???

Sure, which plantation did you get sold too?

Sure, which plantation did you get sold too?

Darn! There's always a catch.

Don't be greedy, you allready have a jackass.

Don't be greedy, you allready have a jackass.

Well, better to have one than to be one. And no, I'm not referring to you.

Harris ' attack on ole Joe was completely uncalled for . There is plenty of things to attack him about . But being a racisist is NOT one of them .

She ex[licitly said she knows he isn't a racist, but she was just landing her punches practising for the real racist in the WH. Quite masterful.

Harris masterful? Hardly.

I bet she can reduce the dufus to his lowest denominator masterfully too! Maybe we get to see that debate in the future.

She has quite a past of her own to try and explain.

All the dems are pretty good, but it's early still.

All the dems are pretty good

They are all pretty good at proposing new spending plans with no idea of how to pay for it, including AOC's lunatic Green New Deal.

She ex[licitly said she knows he isn't a racist, and then went about trying to prove he was a racist ...absurd by any standard . There are many things about Joe that are fair game . But that is not one of them . Had Joe had half a wit (like he does on his good days ) he should've countered that he's such a racist that the 1st African American President chose him as VP for 2 terms .

It's the default accusation now. Anyone with whom liberals disagree with eventually be found to be a racist.

They are all pretty good at proposing new spending plans with no idea of how to pay for it, including AOC's lunatic Green New Deal.

You should research that a bit as they have the pay fors especially Warren.


and then went about trying to prove he was a racist ...absurd by any standard . There are many things about Joe that are fair game . But that is not one of them . Had Joe had half a wit (like he does on his good days ) he should've countered that he's such a racist that the 1st African American President chose him as VP for 2 terms .

I think it had more to do with states right and busing is not seen as a good thing among all minorities.


It's the default accusation now. Anyone with whom liberals disagree with eventually be found to be a racist.

Only if they are.

You should research that a bit as they have the pay fors especially Warren.

No one has any idea at all of how to come up with 90 tril to pay for the Green New Deal. It's pure liberal lunacy.

it's like the tax cuts that pays for itself. See conservatives have a lunacy too.

forced busing was a terrible idea for many reasons and Joe was correct to oppose it . You know that is true because it is no longer practiced .As with most progressive policies the unintended consequences weren't considered .

I actually agree with you and many did back then, but to be fair to Harris there was a small number that relished going to a "better" school. I was shocked Biden didn't see that coming. Maybe not from her, but he didn't look prepared and was he biting his tongue? I remember the good old boys running things too. I didn't consider it a gaff when he said he worked with segregationist, like he had a choice, but that states rights thing gave me the creeps. I still think though he is the guy with the chops. It's still early and he will regroup or he won't.

but to be fair to Harris there was a small number that relished going to a "better" school
and that is why vouchers for parental school choice makes so much more sense .



but he didn't look prepared and was he biting his tongue like me ,it was past his bed time .Biden on his best days is a bumbling contradiction . Over the course of his career he has staked out every position on almost every issue . You see they don't like being called 'flip floppers ' anymore . So they have invented a new phrase ;and Biden uses it a lot …….he's "evolved " .

and states rights is a misnomer . States DON'T have rights . People have rights . States have POWERS . I defy anyone to look at the Constitution and the Amendments and find a reference to "state's rights".

and that is why vouchers for parental school choice makes so much more sense .

I would agree that parental choice makes a lot of sense and is a vote for liberty, but it comes with a load of problems, not the least of which is whether or not these private schools will have to comply with the boatload of state and federal regulations which apply to schools, and I do mean a boatload. It is ridiculous.


and states rights is a misnomer . States DON'T have rights . People have rights . States have POWERS . I defy anyone to look at the Constitution and the Amendments and find a reference to "state's rights".

The oft forgotten tenth amendment would be the answer to a lot of issues. "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." But politicians crave power, and in particular the power to inflict their will on us. It is possible that all of this is going to end in an ugly manner one day. I hope not, but it's possible. There is developing such a wide divide between camps that it is hard to imagine how to continue to bridge it.

Choice is great if you can get it, but one of my previous unanswered questions was what of those that don't get that choice? Too bad is not an answer. Unruled and unregulated private schools are not either. Nor is sucking the money from public schools and giving it to private for profit ones a great solution either. I think we start with our partisan state and local governments that SCOTUS won't touch and gives license to gerrymander the power and the money. I know both sides have done it longer than I can remember, and that has to stop and fair and balanced has to be the rule of the day.

Damn the political party bosses screwing things up. That's a corrupted system getting worse and it's no wonder it reflects on all we do. Can't build anything with rotted wood let alone a bridge.

Choice is great if you can get it, but one of my previous unanswered questions was what of those that don't get that choice?

That is true of virtually every area of life. Not everyone can run in a race, but we don't stop having races for that reason. The answer to your question is to extend choice to as many people as possible and get past the unattainable idea that anything short of perfection is not acceptable. It will never be perfect, as nothing ever is. Virtually NO ONE other than people with enough money has choice now. Are you satisfied with that?


Unruled and unregulated private schools are not either. Nor is sucking the money from public schools and giving it to private for profit ones a great solution either.

We could start with allowing parents to send their children to a public school which is not in their district. That way the money still stays in the system. It sickens me to think how we have decided that the government gets to decide where a parent has to send his/her child. "Your child is in a terrible school? Tough. Suck it up and send them again tomorrow to virtually guaranteed failure."


I think we start with our partisan state and local governments that SCOTUS won't touch and gives license to gerrymander the power and the money. Most of the illogical gerrymandering of school districts was done by federal courts in an effort to mandate racial integration. In my area, this was done in the 70's. The result was that parents who despised being dictated to by the feds simply moved and now live in school districts they prefer, so the schools have become less integrated over the past forty years. It's been a total disaster, and the result is that the city schools have gone to you know where in a hand-basket. The city has lost 10,000 in population and is now a shell of its former self. The county schools routinely have test scores which the city schools cannot come close to. Thanks, federal government with your "We know what's best for you," bureaucrats.

vouchers give choice . Here in NY comrade Sandanista Bill's attack on charters hurts the parents who don't have the choices . Who said anything about unregulated schools . Private schools have to meet standards .Homeschoolers have to meet state standards .

Gerrymandering was correctly ruled by SCOTUS ;and that is coming from me ,who lost my favorite rep in my life due to Gerrymandering . Elections have consequences as the emperor said ,

Who said anything about unregulated schools . Private schools have to meet standards .Homeschoolers have to meet state standards .

They have to meet some minimal standards, but not even close to what public schools have to meet. Standards for special education, for instance, basically do not apply to private schools and they are ridiculously burdensome. State testing regs do not apply. Teacher certification regs do not apply. Tests which must be passed for seniors to graduate do not apply. The list goes on and on. That is one reason many people in public education really resent vouchers since they allow private schools to compete on an unlevel playing ground.

ah so it's a credentials thing. The students in the religious school my wife teaches take the state tests . She teaches special ed and answers to the local public schools system as well as the administrators of her school .Year after year she is subject to recertification and doesn't get a dime extra in compensation for the course work she is required to take . None of these courses or tests add anything to her abilities or skills . The equivalent would be if the state required you to take course work and road tests to renew your driver license . These money grabs by the states discourage skilled and experienced people in the private sector from becoming teachers .

ah so it's a credentials thing. The students in the religious school my wife teaches take the state tests . She teaches special ed and answers to the local public schools system as well as the administrators of her school

Not familiar with your situation, but that I don't think that is the case in most states for private schools. It's not in ours.


Year after year she is subject to recertification and doesn't get a dime extra in compensation for the course work she is required to take .

Just like public school teachers. In our state you have to re-certify every five years, for which you get paid nothing.


None of these courses or tests add anything to her abilities or skills . The equivalent would be if the state required you to take course work and road tests to renew your driver license.

That was true of most of the coursework I took but not all. Some of them were useful.


These money grabs by the states discourage skilled and experienced people in the private sector from becoming teachers .

True, but probably not the biggest factor. Teaching school is the perfect mother's job. When the kids are home, the teacher is home. A lot of time off, and all things considered, pretty good pay. The biggest problem in our state is the perception (at least somewhat accurate) that teachers are subject to disrespect by students and parents, and sometimes severely so.

Privatizing schools would solve many of those problems. For instance, suppose you are an outstanding fifth year teacher. You work hard, your students do well on tests, and you're dependable. The teacher beside you does none of those things, but he/she gets paid the same money you get paid so long as their years of experience and level of education are the same.

Hmm, that opens up the possibility of students being left behind, and teachers who cannot make that standard for private schools. Nobody has a clue about what happens to them or addressed the real killer of public schools and that's the high local costs of maintaning those old buildings and keeping the lights on. Let's not loose site of for profit private schools either and that's to make money.

Hmm, that opens up the possibility of students being left behind, and teachers who cannot make that standard for private schools.

I laughed when I read that. Are you concerned about the millions of students being "left behind" in public schools? At any rate, if a student is not progressing well, the parent can move the child to another school, unlike now where students are trapped in low performing public schools.


Nobody has a clue about what happens to them or addressed the real killer of public schools and that's the high local costs of maintaning those old buildings and keeping the lights on.

Having spent 34 years in education, and having spoken with hundreds of other teachers and school admins, I will say with no hesitation that lack of funding is far, far away from being our biggest problem. We spend more money per student in the U.S. than any other country than Norway.


Let's not loose site of for profit private schools either and that's to make money.

Who cares if they make a profit or not? The primary thing is whether or not students are learning.

I laughed when I read that. Are you concerned about the millions of students being "left behind" in public schools? At any rate, if a student is not progressing well, the parent can move the child to another school, unlike now where students are trapped in low performing public schools.

Don't laugh, because a good option is a tutor. Sometimes the student is the issue, not the school or teachers.


Having spent 34 years in education, and having spoken with hundreds of other teachers and school admins, I will say with no hesitation that lack of funding is far, far away from being our biggest problem. We spend more money per student in the U.S. than any other country than Norway.

That holds maybe for as a collective, but most are LOCAL issues overseen by a school board. Poorer communities less money for stuff. If we are spending so much on our schools, why are public school teachers buying supplies from their own pockets? Why do they need two jobs in some places if costs are not affecting local school budgets? Why are they cutting staff and programs they no longer can afford?


Who cares if they make a profit or not? The primary thing is whether or not students are learning.

The data countrywide is a mixed bag.

https://www.publicnewsservice.org/2019-06-06/education/report-says-pa-charter-schools-underperforming/a66703-1

While I respect your expertise I would prefer the data to anecdotes to bolster your argument. For one, profits do not appear from nowhere, and costs have been rising for years and as an administrator, that's something you should know just as a matter of budgets. Moreover, take from public and give it to private then a lot of people in public have less, despite your declaration that it is NOT the case.

It's one thing to tout what you think is a better way, and quite another to say it works for everyone. Obviously public schools are in need of inprovement, but local budgets have taken a beating and warehousing kids education for profit without the what you said accountability is asking for a big problem.

Some states are just not getting it as right as others, when it comes to school choice, private charter schools or cyber schools. Please show the evidence that choice works across the country. All my evidence that it doesn't is privacy protected so no links, but I did google the subject and it points to what I have outlined in the above paragraph. Still working on those links.

Not familiar with your situation, but that I don't think that is the case in most states for private schools. It's not in ours.
They use Common CORE testing in public and private schools as well as an alphabet soup of others .NY also uses Regents testing .

Privatizing schools would solve many of those problems. For instance, suppose you are an outstanding fifth year teacher. You work hard, your students do well on tests, and you're dependable. The teacher beside you does none of those things, but he/she gets paid the same money you get paid so long as their years of experience and level of education are the same.
absolutely . NY also loves to dump teachers right before tenure kicks in.



Poorer communities less money for stuff.
NY provides state aid to poorer district which means that my property taxes that go towards education does not only get spent in my district . Nah there is plenty of money . And don't use the poor pay of teachers as an example . The real waste is in administrative costs .
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/01/where-school-dollars-go-to-waste/384949/

NY provides state aid to poorer district which means that my property taxes that go towards education does not only get spent in my district . Nah there is plenty of money . And don't use the poor pay of teachers as an example . The real waste is in administrative costs .
https://www.theatlantic.com/educatio...-waste/384949/

Maybe I missed it, but there was nothing in the article about admin costs. You guys are just barking up the wrong tree concerning the problems on education. It has nothing to do with money.

Maybe I missed it, but there was nothing in the article about admin costs. You guys are just barking up the wrong tree concerning the problems on education. It has nothing to do with money.

undoubtedly it has to do with competence

Three primary problems. 1. Culture. 2. Culture 3. Culture

which culture is that?

It's probably a great mix of corruptions and inefficiencies Tom, at the local level.

which culture is that?

Amerian

Amerian
I won't say anything.

Amerian? I know it is probably a typo but I have to ask. Amerian?

Whoops. American.

At least you didn't get into the usual religious diatribe and left open a dialogue that may include as simple something as simple the locals auditing there practices of school funding. Nurses, social workers and counselors are missing from schools, or are overwhelmed by just the sheer number students who need those services. We know that many fall through the cracks and one is to many in my book, as well as their parents and FAMILY issues. I disagree with my friend Tom on there is plenty of money, as local school districts as a whole have taken a hit, while rising costs have there effects also. Inefficient spending sure always a problem, but we have seen a few strikes across the land about teacher pay, teachers buying supplies for students they teach, and teachers working side jobs to pay the rent, not to mention those school shootings.

Yes it's a complex set of problems alright and no one solution fits all situations. I suspect the whole education problem is but a part of a bigger picture that is a reflection on how we deal with our problems across the board. Charities do well but not nearly enough, even with the volunteers so maybe local governments and school districts need to get their priorities straight.

Yes it's a complex set of problems alright

I don't think it is. It is a relatively simple set of cultural problems. There are way too many kids from single parent families with no male influence in their lives. We have a culture that values athletics and entertainment above education. There are too many students (and parents) who do not respect authority and there's an accompanying lack of will to deal with them by school leadership, so maintaining an orderly classroom has become, in many areas, a daunting challenge. Add to all of that an adherence to the silly idea that diversity is a worthwhile goal. With all of these cultural issues facing us, the result is that many schools have lost their focus on academic excellence and have become disorderly. Considering all of the above, the best and brightest do not consider education as a possible profession.

Money is the least of our problems.

I won't say anything.

You haven't said anything in quite a while. Welcome back.

I don't think it is. It is a relatively simple set of cultural problems. There are way too many kids from single parent families with no male influence in their lives. We have a culture that values athletics and entertainment above education. There are too many students (and parents) who do not respect authority and there's an accompanying lack of will to deal with them by school leadership, so maintaining an orderly classroom has become, in many areas, a daunting challenge. Add to all of that an adherence to the silly idea that diversity is a worthwhile goal. With all of these cultural issues facing us, the result is that many schools have lost their focus on academic excellence and have become disorderly. Considering all of the above, the best and brightest do not consider education as a possible profession.

Money is the least of our problems.

The best and brightest find ways to meet whatever the challenge is but unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the case with the ones in charge of giving us a better education system. If a teacher has an unruly class there use to be a system to handle that situation and not just play helpless. You say lack of will, how about lack of enough qualified people to assist in such circumstances. You say it's not money, then why the teacher strikes for resources and money? Naw, you just can't pass it off as a lack of going to church, you actually have to deal with the real life issues that students and parents present beyond the bad attitude which may be a cry for HELP!

As populations grow, capacity becomes a bigger issue than it was before especially given the wage stagnation and rising cost of living. More teachers counsellors nurses cafeteria cooks and janitors cost money so you better find some, or no one will be looking to volunteer to watch over and educate your kids to be broke and poor themselves. Isn't that how charter and private schools take care of that problem? Sure it is, so lets not dance around that aspect of our society in general no matter what the issues are because money is at the heart of all those issues especially in poorer communities.

Maybe holding leadership and administration accountable for solving those problems and firing them if they can't do the job is the place to start.

If a teacher has an unruly class there use to be a system to handle that situation and not just play helpless.

Key words are "used to be". In the schools I worked in, we did not have problems with discipline because we still paddled kids and dealt with parents who wanted their children to behave, but that is not the case in most of the country. In the city system I used to work in, the Obama DOJ along with the loonies of the SCLC imposed a legal agreement on the District with the result that students became free to cuss teachers and the discipline went to you know where. Don't believe me? Come check it out for yourself.


You say lack of will, how about lack of enough qualified people to assist in such circumstances. Nonsense. We don't need more people.


You say it's not money, then why the teacher strikes for resources and money?

It rarely happens, but when it does it's because they want more pay. Who doesn't???


Naw, you just can't pass it off as a lack of going to church,

You're making things up again. I didn't say that, but it would be a great thing to happen.


you actually have to deal with the real life issues that students and parents present beyond the bad attitude which may be a cry for HELP!

Typical liberal nonsense. I've tried to get you to agree that women need to stop having children out of wedlock, but you seem to be too ingrained with liberal orthodoxy to agree to the most common sense proposal imaginable. And yes, men need to stop fathering children out of wedlock.

Key words are "used to be". In the schools I worked in, we did not have problems with discipline because we still paddled kids and dealt with parents who wanted their children to behave, but that is not the case in most of the country. In the city system I used to work in, the Obama DOJ along with the loonies of the SCLC imposed a legal agreement on the District with the result that students became free to cuss teachers and the discipline went to you know where. Don't believe me? Come check it out for yourself.

I'd love to know more details and facts of the case, or directions where I was going.


Nonsense. We don't need more people.

Some schools have a part time nurse and even fewer counselling, and if a class size is 45/50 kids yeah I would say you need more people, for certain important jobs. Just support for teachers with those over sized classes would be a help.


It rarely happens, but when it does it's because they want more pay. Who doesn't???


Happens everywhere I know of when the existing contract expires.


You're making things up again. I didn't say that, but it would be a great thing to happen.


I had to throw that in there because I KNEW that's what you think.


Typical liberal nonsense. I've tried to get you to agree that women need to stop having children out of wedlock, but you seem to be too ingrained with liberal orthodoxy to agree to the most common sense proposal imaginable. And yes, men need to stop fathering children out of wedlock.

Hey guy all due respect but the conditions and population of your small rural town is probably made up of guys like you and that's okay with me but as I always tell Clete about Australia, SIZE, and demographics MATTER. I can only relate to my experience from rather large to huge cities that are VERY diverse. Understandable if it doesn't apply to your own experience where you are.

Different worlds we seem to live in.

class size is 45/50 kids

Happens virtually nowhere. Even in our state, working with restricted budgets, we are limited to no more than 27 students, and in lower grades you must have an assistant.


Hey guy all due respect but the conditions and population of your small rural town is probably made up of guys like you and that's okay with me but as I always tell Clete about Australia, SIZE, and demographics MATTER.

I spent five years working in a high school that was completely American Indian. I spent ten years working in schools which were 90% or more black. I spent fifteen years working in schools that were 80% or more white. The one constant was that we had good discipline. Why? Because it was insisted on. We did not give students the option of acting foolish and still remaining in the school. In far too many areas, that is not the case. It is no longer the case in the city district I worked in thanks to the foolishness of the Obama DOJ.

Exactly what did the DOJ do to you guys and wwhy were they called in? Have you worked outside MS? Just because your district doesn't have that overcrowding problem I assure you many do across the country. You can Google that. OR...

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/education/2017/12/27/texas-crowded-classrooms-charter-schools

According to your article that you linked, overcrowding is not generally a problem in Texas. The few schools that did seem to have some problems were charter schools that are probably not as subject to state regulations.

As far as what the DOJ did, there was supposedly a "school to prison" pipeline in our city. Now bear in mind that the Superintendent was black, most of the principals were black, and many of the teachers were black, and yet they reached the astonishing conclusion that all of those black people were prejudiced against...black people! So they forced the city to adopt discipline guidelines that made it nearly impossible to discipline a student for anything short of carrying a weapon or selling drugs. It produced school environments that were out of order. Teachers began to retire early and it was difficult to find replacements. It's what happens when the loonies in the federal government get involved in education. I could tell you story after story. Test scores for that district are basically in the basement. The district received a grade of F in the most recent testing cycle.

Do you mean the consent decrees a school district entered into? Wonder who squealed?

Do you mean the consent decrees a school district entered into? Wonder who squealed?

Was forced to enter into. It was total nonsense.

According to my own sources and news reporting there were several complaints to the fed after nothing was done by the county, or school district, cops, or courts dating back years. From the lawsuit which included the school district, cops, and courts...



The department issued findings on Aug. 10, 2012 after a comprehensive investigation that began in December 2011. The department found reasonable cause that the defendants were violating Section 14141 of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, which prohibits a pattern or practice of deprivation of civil rights in the administration of juvenile justice . In its findings letter, the department stated its willingness to engage in meaningful negotiations to remedy the identified violations, but defendants did not timely engage in such negotiations.


That's almost a year of investigating. Hardly nonsense if you were a parent or affected student of discriminatory policies beneath a thin veneer of discipline.

That's almost a year of investigating. Hardly nonsense if you were a parent or affected student of discriminatory policies beneath a thin veneer of discipline.

It was the typical federal idiocy. In a district that is 90% minority and led/staffed by minority individuals, they found the amazing conclusion that minority kids were more likely to be disciplined. But even if they had a valid conclusion, the "solution" was complete and total nonsense that resulted in schools that could not be properly run. Should, for instance, a student call a teacher a "", the teacher was supposed to correct the student and call the parent after school. You cannot run a school in an environment like that. In my day, and I suspect in yours, I would have feared for my life if I had used that word at a teacher. And like I said, the district's state testing score for this past year was an F. Great job, federal government!

Yeah the scores are deplorable, but the lawsuits and consent decrees were brought about by unwillingness to negotiate a solution to correcting a violation of law. It's a matter of public information. The high school in question got a low grade, but compared to the other 241 high schools they rank in the middle of the pack not at the bottom.

You blame the feds for that failure when the whole state is shaky?

The high school in question got a low grade, but compared to the other 241 high schools they rank n the middle of the pack not at the bottom.

You need to learn how to do research. That high school ranks 210th out of 233 high schools which is about where they have been for three years. That's the middle of the pack??? Really???

The district itself ranks 121st out of 134. It's a sad drop for district that just twenty years ago was considered a very solid district.

https://www.schooldigger.com/go/MS/schools/0291000567/school.aspx

The whole state is far from shaky. There are many high performing schools in our state.

Again, thanks to the incompetent dingbats in the DOJ and SCLC.

Your data is more up to date

https://www.piqosity.com/2016/09/28/act-scores-for-mississippi-high-schools-2017/



The kids in Columbus, Mississippi are clearly smart. However, the 89% rest of the state is struggling to prepare for college, but they nonetheless aspire to go to Mississippi State University; these are the key takeaways from the ACT scores of Mississippi’s graduating class of 2017.


Your data shows no different, but a continuing trend toward underperformance for higher learning as a state. It's been that way a long time, long enough to stop blaming the feds for your failures. The feds didn't make you a poor state full of poor people and breaking the law in the name of discipline won't change that.

Your data shows no different, but a continuing trend toward underperformance for higher learning as a state. It's been that way a long time, long enough to stop blaming the feds for your failures.

Once again you are imagining what I said. My comment was about a particular district and the incredibly stupid settlement forced upon them by the feds. You are speaking of the state as a whole. That was not my issue.

Your data was ACT scores. Not a terrible choice, but not all seniors take the ACT as it is not free. State testing scores, which are mandatory for all students and are given free, are a better choice for comparison. Not, of course, that anyone would ever pay for the wonderful privilege of taking that test.

As to the state as a whole, we have made more progress than most states on the only test that compares states which is NAEP. We are still not at the national average, but we are closed the gap considerably.

https://www.nationsreportcard.gov/profiles/stateprofile/overview/MS?cti=PgTab_OT&chort=1&sub=MAT&sj=MS&fs=Grade&st=MN&year=2017R3&sg=Gender%3A+Male+vs.+Female&sgv=Difference&ts=Single+Year&tss=2015R3-2017R3&sfj=NP

Okay let's get back to that,

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-files-lawsuit-mississippi-protect-constitutional-rights-children

If you can abide by such a policy on your own citizen kids, its no wonder you can abide by the humanitarian crisis on our southern border. Guards, guns and cages, instead of counsellors, and social workers, and doctors? You seem to have a pattern of blaming the least and punishing them for it.

Yeah. The DOJ said it, so it just has to be true.

Denial noted, as I note all your denials of fact. If it is true wouldn't that be an act of despicable portions though?

If it is true wouldn't that be an act of despicable portions though?

Well, I would have to believe, first of all, that a district led by black administrators and employing many black teachers would be exercising discrimination against black students, which should strike any thinking person as a pretty suspicious accusation. Then I would have to ignore the involvement of the SCLC which is an utterly useless and corrupt organization. Then I would have to forget my own knowledge of the situation, of young people, for instance, that could not be visited in detention centers as they would throw human waste at anyone who happened to walk by and who were an absolute danger to other students on campus. So you can go ahead and live in your dream world where perfectly honorable young people were being cruelly incarcerated, but you will be living out a fantasy.

Now to be fair, there were some school policies which needed to be changed, which is true in most places, but the resolution of the situation by the non-thinking DOJ was atrocious and is destroying what was, at one time, a good school district. I suspect you won't agree with that since it does not fit your political narrative, but it is true nonetheless as is shown by test scores from the past three years.

Joe Biden keeps digging a deeper hole for himself and his campaign. He won't last and that is not good for his party which has been taken over by loonies .
https://nypost.com/2019/07/05/joe-biden-keeps-making-things-worse-for-himself/

The debate format isn't much better than the repubs TBH, but I've seen these bumps go back and forth until hopefuls run out of money. Dems better get on their game for what promises to be rabid repubs opposition once the field gets whittled down. Joe better get the kinks out soon, Cuomo can't save him.

We are between a rock and a hard place. We have Trump and no great conservative Democrats to challenge him . The Dem clown car will take out Biden ,and we will be left with the choice of voting for candidates who have gone beyond fringe socialism or status quo,

Seriously? I doubt that since the current field of nominees doesn't have a loony lying cheating dufus in it. That includes YOUR fav. Oh you meant a conservative? Naw none of those on our side. Hold your nose for a more moderate, which is the likely out come. have heart, I may have to vote for Bernie which would require ME to hold my nose UGH!

Bernie is old news . He will not survive .

Whew!!