maybe they would realise the misery capitalism visits on the world

Not a fair statement. Capitalism has done more to lift poor people out of poverty than any other system by far. In the United States, the vast majority of poor people have some sort of disability, are too lazy to work, or have made poor life decisions that hinder their progress, but the problem is not capitalism. "Rags to riches" stories are abundant where capitalism prevails.


if we got real, 10% would be a reasonable income tax for private individuals

That's a great idea, but trying to get rid of deductions in the U.S. would be tough. At any rate, if we went to 10%, our national debt problem would become even worse than it is now since revenues would drop.

Not a fair statement. Capitalism has done more to lift poor people out of poverty than any other system by far. In the United States, the vast majority of poor people have some sort of disability, are too lazy to work, or have made poor life decisions that hinder their progress, but the problem is not capitalism. "Rags to riches" stories are abundant where capitalism prevails.



That's a great idea, but trying to get rid of deductions in the U.S. would be tough. At any rate, if we went to 10%, our national debt problem would become even worse than it is now since revenues would drop.

You don't get the point, the rich don't pay anything, half your population pays nothing, the whole system is an illusion that is why your debt is rising. The reason this is so is deductions, so lower the rate and abolish the deductions, revenue would rise

the rich don't pay anything

Now that statement is what we in the south call a "whopper"! The top 1% of income earners in America pay nearly half of federal income tax. The top 20% pay over 80%. The bottom 50% of earners, on the other hand, pay basically nothing.

Total income for 2017 was about 17 trillion. 10% of that would be 1.7 trillion, which is about where it is now in terms of income tax revenues, so revenue would not rise. Now I'm all in favor of doing it, but the liberal dems will raise cane about it so you can forget about that happening. They will say it is not progressive. They will also point out the person making 30 thou a year with two kids and a medical bill of 10 thou. How will you answer that? And the half that pay no income tax, take a wild guess who they vote for, and what the chances are that their political party will take part in making them pay taxes.

The problem is with spending, not with revenues. We would have to increase income tax revenue by 50% to cover the budget deficit. That simply is not going to happen, and certainly should not happen. Spending must be cut a lot. I'd really like to see us start a variable income tax that rises or falls as much as is needed to cover spending. You'd see spending cuts by the dozens if we did that.

As I've said before, no American has a right to another American's money. Mandatory charity is not charity.



Mandatory charity is not about charity, It’s about the kind of country we want to be – who we back, who we reward, what we expect of people, the kind of signals we send to the next generation.






I assure you the American dream is alive and well for those who are willing to work for it.









What about those who are willing but unable to work for it?

I'm referring to those who have children and aren't married, live amongst family who give them emotional and perhaps financial support, who have never lived away from "home", who didn't do well in school and maybe don't even have a hs

diploma.





But those same people who come across the Border, (I'm referring to those who have children and aren't married, live amongst family who give them emotional and perhaps financial support, who have never lived away from "home", who didn't do well in school and maybe don't even have a hs diploma) believe in the "American dream" and are more than willing to work for it.


The American dream is alive...for those who believe.

Mandatory charity is not about charity, It’s about the kind of country we want to be – who we back, who we reward, what we expect of people, the kind of signals we send to the next generation.

It's more about the use of taxpayer funds to buy votes.

Like the big beautiful wall, or chanting lock her up, or make America great again? Oops, he wasn't buying votes he was rousting his base through fear, hate, and anger. It worked. Still works because he is still rousting his base. I suppose supplying red meat to his loonies is buying votes.

Build the wall. Build the wall. Build the wall.

The dufus won't have Clinton emails to kick around in the next election, but the dems should have a treasure trove of the dufus being the dufus in 2020.



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Yep. Amazingly good economy. Someone who actually believes in doing something to have a secure southern border. Appointing court judges who really think the rule of law is important. Stands up against abortion. And he will have the gifts that just keep on giving such as AOC, Ilhan Omar, Bernie Sanders, and the Green New Deal. Now if he can just learn to speak with discipline, he will win. That is, of course, a big if.

But those same people who come across the Border, (I'm referring to those who have children and aren't married, live amongst family who give them emotional and perhaps financial support, who have never lived away from "home", who didn't do well in school and maybe don't even have a hs diploma) believe in the "American dream" and are more than willing to work for it.
So, if people south of our border want to find that dream and achieve a good life, why don't our own down-and-out citizens whose ancestors came here centuries ago (to find the American dream) do whatever they can to climb higher?

why don't our own down-and-out citizens whose ancestors came here centuries ago (to find the American dream) do whatever they can to climb higher?

Great question.

Saw something yesterday that reminded me of this topic. I was out at a local park and saw a young person being pushed along in a specialized wheelchair. He plainly had no motor skill control at all. Don't know if his mind was working, but I couldn't help but think what he would've given to simply have a working mind and body, and of those who have those minds and bodies and yet do so little with them. Sad.

Saw something yesterday that reminded me of this topic. I was out at a local park and saw a young person being pushed along in a specialized wheelchair. He plainly had no motor skill control at all. Don't know if his mind was working, but I couldn't help but think what he would've given to simply have a working mind and body, and of those who have those minds and bodies and yet do so little with them. Sad.
If only the (lazy or disinterested or unwilling...) people who have the physical and mental ability to earn a living, but sit at home instead, had to switch places for a month with that young man in the motorized wheelchair....

So true. We should be greatly alarmed! We are beginning to agree on some things.

So true. We should be greatly alarmed! We are beginning to agree on some things.
Scary, isn't it!

You never know how many able bodied people have mental issues, or the ones who are undiagnosed. You never know why a person is unable or as WG says UNWILLING to help themselves. I just believe that all deserve the right help and the right support to help them overcome those so called bad life choices. Some need more than others.

Its often a HUGE frustrating challenge and a never ending endeavor.

You never know how many able bodied people have mental issues, or the ones who are undiagnosed. You never know why a person is unable or as WG says UNWILLING to help themselves. I just believe that all deserve the right help and the right support to help them overcome those so called bad life choices. Some need more than others.

Its often a HUGE frustrating challenge and a never ending endeavor.
You nailed it, Tal!!! That's why I so much enjoyed my Catholic Charities internship and, later as a counselor, helping people realize they had undiscovered strengths and skills that would be important when job hunting. Once they found a job, as counselor I stayed in touch with them to help them deal with emotional/social difficulties. And that's what "lazy, disinterested, and unwilling" people need -- someone in their corner, not only offering suggestions and giving advice, but being their cheerleader, too.

And that's what "lazy, disinterested, and unwilling" people need -- someone in their corner, not only offering suggestions and giving advice, but being their cheerleader, too.

Great idea. And you must also be willing to let them try and fail without your constant interference. That's what makes people grow. Treat men and women like adults.

Great idea. And you must also be willing to let them try and fail without your constant interference. That's what makes people grow. Treat men and women like adults.
Yep! I did and still do...as we all can do, especially when raising the next generation.

It's what welfare does not do.

It's what welfare does not do.
Welfare is fine. Now get well-trained social workers involved to help clients move toward autonomy. Isn't welfare for only so many years? During the early '90s, I had a client who received Section 8 housing and a monthly welfare check. She received an official letter telling her the welfare payments would end and she needed to find a job. Instructions were included for local resources for job hunting.

She received an official letter telling her the welfare payments would end and she needed to find a job. Instructions were included for local resources for job hunting.

Makes me wonder why that wasn't done on day one. When she had to get busy, she got busy. That is true of most people.

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Yep! I did and still do...as we all can do, especially when raising the next generation.

I'm on my next, next generation, from 22 -2, 4 boys 3 girls. The moral for me is ALWAYs be willing to give love and support, succeed or fail. In my mind a social safety net for Everybody is NOT charity, but a moral IMPERATIVE.

Good to have unconditional love, tough at times, from family though, but that doesn't mean you can get none from a stranger.

Makes me wonder why that wasn't done on day one. When she had to get busy, she got busy. That is true of most people.

She was a single mom with a newborn. Her welfare payments lasted until the child was two (when I came into her life). She knew that from the get-go, but had buried it in her subconscious.

She was a single mom with a newborn. Her welfare payments lasted until the child was two (when I came into her life). She knew that from the get-go, but buried it in her subconscious.

Who takes care of the child while she works?

Who takes care of the child while she works?
That then was her problem. She had been a factory worker with low wages before she had gotten pregnant. My internship and connection to her ended about this time. She had started dating a man named Walter whom she married within the next year. I don't know but suspect Walter was helping her financially before their marriage. She did call me a couple of years later to fill me in and let me know she had had a second baby whom they named Hope.

All of which is why we need to start encouraging marriage and discouraging out of wedlock births. Now Tal and WG will say they agree with that, except they never post it.

You can encourage or discourage whatever you want, but you cannot make people do things against their will. It's still their choice. You can't make them good parents either. Would you make a child pay for bad choices by bad parents?

you cannot make people do things against their will. It's still their choice. You can't make them good parents either. Would you make a child pay for bad choices by bad parents?

Yes, you can make people do things against their will. Happens all the time when people obey laws that keep them from doing what they otherwise would do.

No, we can't make them good parents. Sad but true. But abandoning the concept of marriage is not the answer.

Children have to suffer for poor parenting all the time. It's tragic but reality. That's why I am against out of wedlock births. It is ultimately the children who suffer.

Yes, you can make people do things against their will. Happens all the time when people obey laws that keep them from doing what they otherwise would do.

Sally goes on a date to see a romantic movie with her longtime boyfriend Charles. After the movie, they drive to the local Dairy Queen and have chocolate sundaes. It's getting late -- but not too late. Charles drives to a popular place on the lakeshore. They get out and sit on a couple of Charles' beach towels and enjoy the gently lapping waves and beautiful night sky. Charles leans in for a kiss that Sally happily returns. Kisses become more impassioned. Everything is just right -- romantic movie, beautiful surroundings, loving boyfriend -- total contentment. Before you can say Jack Robinson, clothes are sliding off bodies.

Now what? JL, please write the rest of the story.

In this current culture we both know how the story ends. It's a change in the culture that I am trying to bring about. Care to join in that effort?

In this current culture we both know how the story ends.
I want you to finish the story the way YOU think it should end. What does Sally say? Then what does Charles say?

So you're asking how I would counsel those two? Don't allow yourself to get to that place. If you do, the result will be fairly predictable.

"Sally, get dressed again as rapidly as possible. You take all the risk UNTIL you have a ring (signifying commitment) on your finger. Bottom line is to keep your pants on at all times. It's hard to get into too much trouble with your pants on."

"Charles, if you love this girl, then do the right thing. Don't put her at risk. If you do, then your love is just a mirage."

To do otherwise is stupid. It's the message our culture has chosen to ignore. So again, do you want to change the culture?

*sigh* You're supposed to finish the story, not counsel them. What would each say to the other?

What would they say? I don't know. You also didn't write any dialogue in your opening act. What would they do? At that point, having gone that far, they would likely make a mistake.

What's your point?