The Trump administration did its usual pack of lies, but never so evil as this revealed today.

Trump's people counted the dead in Puerto Rico from the hurricane at 64. 64!

The Harvard Medical Public Health Organization estimated FOUR THOUSAND SIX HUNDRED AND FORTY FIVE DEAD. The number, published in the New England Journal of Medicine Tuesday, has been confirmed by other organizations. The number is expected to increase as the investigation continues.

That's 4,645+ instead of 64!!!

Colludin' Donald lies about his collusion with Russia, the size of his inauguration crowd, explains that Clinton received 3 million more votes than he did because of "illegal aliens", and on and on and on. But this one is extreme even for Colludin' Donald. To miss the death count by thousands requires some extraordinary capacity for evil to stare directly into a camera and lie so easily.

The official estimate was made by the Puerto Rico Dept of Public Safety ;not the Trump adm.

The official estimate was made by the Puerto Rico Dept of Public Safety ;not the Trump adm.

New York Rep. Nydia Velazquez slammed Trump's October remarks, asking whether the thousands of death now constitute as a "real catastrophe."


"By undercounting the fatalities, the true impact of Maria was concealed. By obscuring this, many were left to believe the Trump Administration's mythology that Puerto Rico was not hit hard by Maria," she said in a follow-up statement. "Now, that we are seeing further evidence of what many of us have long maintained - that Maria was an epic disaster"

You're playing semantics. No one is in doubt what the Trump Administration believes re the death toll in Puerto Rico.

The whole response from their fellow American to the PR disaster was/is a shameful disaster in of itself and just another example that MAGA was a big fat lie from a big fat liar.

No surprise there.

Puerto Rico political power is in the Democratic left. They undercounted . You are playing semantics with the truth . The response was and is inadequate .But you padded your case with a distortion .
64 people were killed directly by the storm, but another 4000+ died as a result of the collapse of infrastructure in the wake of the storm. The catastrophe occurred before the storm hit and again you should question who really is responsible for that knowing that the island is in the cross hairs of almost every tropical storm .

So let me get this straight; Trump is responsible for the destruction of a tropical cyclone. His magnificence could have changed the situation with a wave of his hand. What he is guilty of is not recognising that there is a crisis, which if it happened further north, would have had resources thrown at it.
Puerto Rico needs to decide where it actually stands, fence sitting can not work out for you sometimes.

64 people were killed directly by the storm, but another 4000+ died as a result of the collapse of infrastructure in the wake of the storm.
So the dead 4000+ are not victims of Maria???

Clete ,correct .It is well past the time for the island to make a choice....statehood or independence . As for the rest . The left is trying to make this Trump's Katrina . The facts ,thousands of cargo ships went to San Juan alone with supplies only to sit there in port waiting their turn to off load . The supplies rotted while local drivers could not get to the ports . Teamsters plead with stateside drivers to take up the slack .FEMA allocated sufficient funding and the US military participated where they could in clearing roads .
The USS Kearsarge Amphibious Ready Group alone delivered 44,000 pounds of supplies and conducted 144 airlifts.



Getting emergency aid to where it is needed is tough enough .Getting it to an island who's infrastructure to receive it was destroyed is doubly difficult .
In a large event like a hurricane, there are never enough EMTs, police, firefighters, and medical personnel in a place, and it’s impossible to bring them in immediately.

The efforts of local first responders is critical in a crisis . The Cajun Navy jumped right in to take the lead in the response in the Bayou after Harvey .Where was the local effort in Puerto Rico? Like the citizens of New Orleans ,they had been conditioned by the Democrat nanny-state to sit back and wait for the government to do the work while San Juan mayor Carmen Cruz finger pointed and took no blame for the poor local response . PR has had storms that took out electricity before . Where was the plan of action for the next strorm ? If the death toll is where Harvard's "study" says it is ,it was because when it counted ,the local Puerto Rican government failed the people .

WG ,I believe I just answered your question.

Tom disaster relief is problematic at any time and in the third world always disastrous. That PR should be third world is a disgrace, it has been a US dependency for more than a century and should be as highly developed as say Tiawan

They choose their course. They have had a number of referendum votes with 3 options ;status quo territory ;statehood ,or independence. I would make the referendum a two option vote removing status quo. I don't care either way how the vote would turn out ;but the status quo is no longer acceptable.

That is total abdication, Tom, what did those people know to guide them in a decision? Many migrated to the US

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2017/10/04/puerto-rico-debt-crisis-bankruptcy-donald-trump/731091001/

Puerto Rico gov submits $25B budget amid deal with board | Miami Herald (http://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/article211705514.html)


However, Rossello said federal funds cannot be the only solution to Puerto Rico's economic problems, saying that statehood is needed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rican_status_referendum,_2017#Results



Governor
Ricardo Rosselló (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricardo_Rossell%C3%B3)
was strongly in favor of statehood to help develop the economy and help to "solve our 500-year-old colonial dilemma ... Colonialism is not an option .... It’s a civil rights issue ... 3.5 million citizens seeking an absolute democracy," he told the news media.
[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rican_status_referendum,_2017#cite_note-19)
Benefits of statehood include an additional $10 billion per year in federal funds, the right to vote in presidential elections, higher Social Security and Medicare benefits, and a right for its government agencies and municipalities to file for bankruptcy. The latter is currently prohibited.
[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rican_status_referendum,_2017#cite_note-Danica_Coto-1)

Despite the logistical nightmare of being an island, being a state would certainly help. I mean they can do no worse than Mississippi or a few other states for that matter.

I'm not buying the distinction between died in the storm, or died in the aftermath because dead is dead, because of the storm. The response was/is lousy, and the plan before (WHAT PLAN) was just as lousy. I'll just say that humans screwed it all up. NOW WHAT!

Mother Nature can reek havoc on human plans or lack thereof, just ask the folks in New Orleans, Houston, NY, NJ, or Elliot. Probably couldn't afford STORM insurance.

I have no problem with statehood. I have no problem with independence . I have a huge problem with territory status. Yes status quo is abdication of responsibility . Clete ,like it or not the correct course is to allow the people to determine their status. I don't particularly care about their level of education .That doesn't stop people in this country from going to the polls to make their preference known.

Tal as far a I can tell ,the plan was to sit back and wait for Uncle Sam to save the bacon. That was irresponsible by the island leadership . The time to worry about it was before ;especially since the island has been in the path of many tropical storms.

I have no problem with statehood. I have no problem with independence . I have a huge problem with territory status. Yes status quo is abdication of responsibility . Clete ,like it or not the correct course is to allow the people to determine their status. I don't particularly care about their level of education .That doesn't stop people in this country from going to the polls to make their preference known.

Tal as far a I can tell ,the plan was to sit back and wait for Uncle Sam to save the bacon. That was irresponsible by the island leadership . The time to worry about it was before ;especially since the island has been in the path of many tropical storms.

I think the abdication of responsibility rests with Washington, not with the locals who have limited resources and power. That island should be an economic powerhouse benefiting from its association with the US, but they have been given no incentive for statehood, just left to be a backwater

clearly you have no clue . They have every opportunity to take advantage of their status . What they are not entitled to is endless bailouts from big daddy to cover for their internal corruption and incompetence .Years of progressive leadership has brought them to where they are today .

clearly you have no clue . They have every opportunity to take advantage of their status . What they are not entitled to is endless bailouts from big daddy to cover for their internal corruption and incompetence .Years of progressive leadership has brought them to where they are today .

That leadership doesn't appear to have been very progressive, you mean liberal

I believe in the classical liberalism and do not like that lefties have high jacked the word .

I believe in the classical liberalism and do not like that lefties have high jacked the word .
Just like fundies have hijacked the term "evangelicals." Fundies AREN'T traditional evangelicals. They have made that word a joke.

PR has never been a high priority in DC. They have never recovered from the meltdown, and that made a bad situation worse. I'm not saying PR bears no responsibility, but the options are severely limited. Even some of our states have fared far worse with their own recovery. They have plenty of incentives for statehood, amongst the better informed. PR can restructure and get some debt relief.

Forget the semantic label acrobatics because a progressive like myself, can be socially liberal, but fiscally conservative, and be neither an fundamentalist or atheist. Labels are not, and never been, nor will be, as accurate as facts, though they are open to interpretations depending on perspective and perception.

Just like fundies have hijacked the term "evangelicals." Fundies AREN'T traditional evangelicals. They have made that word a joke.
As a "fundie" I've never been really sure what "evangelical" means. You can't couple the word traditional with evangelical, that word belongs to institutional religion

As a "fundie" I've never been really sure what "evangelical" means. You can't couple the word traditional with evangelical, that word belongs to institutional religion
Evangelicals are those whose mission in life is Matthew 28:19.

Evangelicals are those whose mission in life is Matthew 28:19.

My mission as a fundamentalist is to follow Jesus' instructions, I don't need another tag

My mission as a fundamentalist is to follow Jesus' instructions, I don't need another tag

This probably should be on a religion board.

My understanding of fundamentalist is someone who believes the Bible is literal, written by God, and inerrant. Evangelicals are those who preach/proselytize for Christianity. The two approaches have similarities and differences.

In the current context, it has been pretty well established that much of Trump's core support comes from the fundamentalist/evangelical crowd. The surprise is that Trump's personal behavior is so lacking in Christian values that it's difficult to fathom the WHY of that support.

One reason, probably the primary one, is the nature of the religion. Like all primitive religions, it keys on belief rather than on behavior. This leads to excusing Trump's behavior and allowing the devotee to vote his or her single issue - usually abortion.

A secondary reason is a bizarre one. Like Trump, they support Israel, not as a right, however controversial, to be a nation, but since they believe the Jews will ultimately be eliminated as Jews upon their conversion at the last days. The Israelis are well aware of this odd belief but they put up with it as the price of the support.

Let me add that modern Christianity has placed behavior to be the sign of belief. From the Hebrew prophets to the Christian Christ and forward, social justice has been the hallmark of the mature faith.

You need to make up your mind whether the faith is primitive or mature, Tal. I can understand why Christians would be reluctant to support someone like Clinton, so Trump became the problem of not enough choice. People get upset about things they see as impositions so Obamacare would be an issue, and Trump offered the promise of disentanglement and the promise of solving the immigration problem. Social justice is a relative term, personal circumstance demands social justice, but the further away the problem the more it is the hands of God.

You need to separate humanism from belief. It is an issue that has entangled the whole spectrum

I don't have to do anything about any religious notions. Stamp a big 0 on your forehead and chant and rant all you want to. Not on my dime, or time, or in my front yard.

I don't have to do anything about any religious notions. Stamp a big 0 on your forehead and chant and rant all you want to. Not on my dime, or time, or in my front yard.

Fine Tal but remember your nation was founded on religious notions

I am familiar with those religious notions. Holier than thou is but a cover to justify labeling the natives as primitive, conquering them, and forcing them to assimilate to YOUR religious notions. Even you must admit that though you don't call it manifest destiny, the results are still the same. All of this because of somebody's religious notions? Like it confers some sort of superiority because god is on your side.

What does that even have to do with a natural disaster, and the people who went through it? Has everyone forgotten the storm IRMA two weeks before?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/weather/2018/01/30/2017-s-three-monster-hurricanes-harvey-irma-and-maria-among-five-costliest-ever/1078930001/

Fine Tal but remember your nation was founded on religious notions

Wrong, again.

The US was founded very specifically on notions that PREVENTED religion from being a foundation stone. It is spelled out most clearly in the very FIRST Amendment to the Constitution.

You may be referring to the "Pilgrim Fathers". If so, wrong again! Their notion of religion was actually anti-religious. If you did not adhere to their religious beliefs, you were ostracized, banished, or otherwise demeaned. Freedom of religion was a concept they were totally against.

Wrong, again.

The US was founded very specifically on notions that PREVENTED religion from being a foundation stone. It is spelled out most clearly in the very FIRST Amendment to the Constitution.

You may be referring to the "Pilgrim Fathers". If so, wrong again! Their notion of religion was actually anti-religious. If you did not adhere to their religious beliefs, you were ostracized, banished, or otherwise demeaned. Freedom of religion was a concept they were totally against.
Perfect!!! You said it so much better than I could have. From my experience, the last thing on any organized religion's list is tolerance. Thank goodness the Founding Fathers used their brains and set it up so the US wouldn't ever be a theocracy.

You completely misconstrued what I said

You completely misconstrued what I said
How so? Please explain.

How so? Please explain.

What I meant was that Christian values went into framing the Declaration and the Constitution. The very idea of equality. Your pilgrims fled religious persecution and ensured over generations that the imposition of a state religion was unacceptable

UPDATE

The 4,000+ death toll from Hurricane Maria is now considered to be invalid based on faulty methodology by the Harvard Group. The number may yet prove accurate but not based on the examined parameters.

However, seven other studies, including by the Puerto Rican government, all have the death toll hovering around 1,000 - a far cry from Trump's 64.

UPDATE

The 4,000+ death toll from Hurricane Maria is now considered to be invalid based on faulty methodology by the Harvard Group. The number may yet prove accurate but not based on the examined parameters.

However, seven other studies, including by the Puerto Rican government, all have the death toll hovering around 1,000 - a far cry from Trump's 64.

Look all this is playing with statistics, confidence intervals and like climate change, computer modelling, and population sampling, not an actual count. The additional deaths during the 2017 hurricane season ranges from 500 to 1400 depending upon which months you include in the data. Trump might be right 64 died on the day, maybe 1,400 died over three months and maybe those deaths were hurricane related. Who you going to believe? The real issue is that serious problems like power supply have not been resolved. Someone is laying down on the job

The official estimate was made by the Puerto Rico Dept of Public Safety ;not the Trump adm.


The first amendment guarantees the free exercise of Religion and prohibits the formation of a state religion. I wouldn't call that preventing religion from being a founding stone. .. There were many influences on the founders and one of the biggest was Christianity . It is not in the 1st amendment where you find prevention of religion ,but in the Article VI prohibition of religious tests for fedreral office. The founders were creating a limited government and there was nothing in the Constitution preventing states and local government fromhave established religions. Some of them did .
The last state church was disestablished in 1832,

The official estimate was made by the Puerto Rico Dept of Public Safety ;not the Trump adm.


The first amendment guarantees the free exercise of Religion and prohibits the formation of a state religion. I wouldn't call that preventing religion from being a founding stone. .. There were many influences on the founders and one of the biggest was Christianity . It is not in the 1st amendment where you find prevention of religion ,but in the Article VI prohibition of religious tests for fedreral office. The founders were creating a limited government and there was nothing in the Constitution preventing states and local government fromhave established religions. Some of them did .
The last state church was disestablished in 1832,



Trump quoted the 64 number - more than once.

Religion - You're seeing the trees but missing the forest.

Trump quoted the 64 number - more than once.

Religion - You're seeing the trees but missing the forest.

Trump says a lot of things, whether they are facts or not I'll leave to you

Actually I'm standing in a clearing wondering what I did with my chainsaw

Religion - You're seeing the trees but missing the forest.
Nope The closest thing that supports the argument that "The US was founded very specifically on notions that PREVENTED religion from being a foundation stone" can be found in Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists .That happened in 1802 ;15 years after ratification .Jefferson was not even in the country when the Constitution was negotiated and ratified .He was in France. His 'wall of separation ' is a distortion at best of the framer's intent .

Nope The closest thing that supports the argument that "The US was founded very specifically on notions that PREVENTED religion from being a foundation stone" can be found in Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists .That happened in 1802 ;15 years after ratification .Jefferson was not even in the country when the Constitution was negotiated and ratified .He was in France. His 'wall of separation ' is a distortion at best of the framer's intent .


Jefferson? You mean the slave holder who raped his slave while writing "All men are created equal"? That Jefferson?

You continue to miss the big picture.

yes that Jefferson ;who was also the one who took a copy of the Bible and cut out any reference to God . He was America's first lefty .

yes that Jefferson ;who was also the one who took a copy of the Bible and cut out any reference to God . He was America's first lefty .


It's good to see you've finally come around to supporting the left.

"Lefty" hypocrite Jefferson never succeeded in removing God from the bible, and there is no evidence of God in current conservative policy or values that Moron Mitch says is the highest it's ever been.

Sounds like a deal with the devil which is an apt description of righty evangelical conservatives and racists electing a lying cheating foul mouth bully to the highest office in the land. It was bound to happen sooner or later, given the flaw in the law our founders left us with. The electoral college, a vehicle to undermine the PUBLIC will. Repubs have used this to their advantage very well in MY lifetime.

lol by all means attempt to amend the constitution to eliminate the electoral college. I can't think of a quicker way to civil war.

Can't be any worse than the civil war raging now. I don't think there is a 2/3rds vote on anything right now. It's still left to the states how they apportion and choose their delegates or electors.

your side is going to get their way when more states enact the Interstate compact about the popular vote. Just a little warning . Be careful what you wish for .

your side is going to get their way when more states enact the Interstate compact about the popular vote. Just a little warning . Be careful what you wish for .

It sounds like a good idea Tom, short of an amendment, why should a minority determine the Presidency

Whomever wished for Trump wasn't all that careful. Hard to believe its only been 15 months.

Whomever wished for Trump wasn't all that careful. Hard to believe its only been 15 months.

Yes, Tal, it seems longer, that is because of the constant high drama and stroking of the Trump ego. We don't hear anywhere as much about other leaders and that is because of Trump's constant tweeting. Twitter, twitter little bird

I think it funny The Mad Dufus King is telling Kim how to build condos on his beaches but nothing for the Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico devastated by a couple of hurricanes. Typical Dufus.

I think it funny The Mad Dufus King is telling Kim how to build condos on his beaches but nothing for the Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico devastated by a couple of hurricanes. Typical Dufus.

My thoughts too, what happened to PR, did it sink?

really ? You think he would give them away ? Get Kim's head out of his a$$ and there will be plenty of investors . The same is true of the leadership in PR. The island is a basket case of their making .

Yes you can blame to locals, but when you start from a low base you don't get far. You spent a lot of time exporting jobs to Mexico and none to PR, why? They speak Spanish too!

Is it because they don't have proper democratic representation?

Before the US involvement Puerto Rico was poor;dependent on sugar harvesting as their sole economic source. Then the US started subsidizing industry to move there and transform them to an industrial economy . The illusion of that worked for a couple of decades . Between 1950 and 1980, per capita gross national product grew nearly tenfold in Puerto Rico . With that came revelations that the politicians on the island were skimming $$$ from worker's wages and benefits .

Then the "anti-corporate welfare " crowd started making noise in the 1990s .1996, Bubba signed a law that would phase the tax code provision that American companies in Puerto Rico benefited from . It was phased out in a 10 year period so the full devastating effect of the plan wasn't felt unto 2006-2008 ;just about the same time as the recession. Plant closures and job losses followed.The Puerto Rican government borrowed heavily to replace the lost revenue.Now they are $70 billion in debt, have an unemployment rate 2.5 times the U.S. average, a 45 percent poverty rate, nearly insolvent pension systems and a chronically underfunded Medicaid insurance program .Puerto Rico's job base continues to shrink, taking its economy along with it. Meanwhile ,industrious and entrepreneurial Puerto Ricans have migrated to the US where their efforts can be rewarded . The labor pool shrinks annually leaving the island with an aging population and young losers waiting for the government to do something for them.

You did your homework Tom, give you that but calling those poverty ridden people that are left without options and having older people to care for hardly makes them losers. There are enough people in America proper going through the same thing, left behind when the economy tanked and the blue collar factories left. When the money moves someplace else some cannot just follow it.

Corrupt politicians and greedy capitalists leave people in their wake all over the place, and that's how we got Trump!

Why shouldn't I call them losers when I call the same group living in mamma's basement in the states losers ? Shame on anyone of working age here if they are not working . No matter what your skill level ,if you can pass a drug test, there is a job for you in America today. I work with Puerto Ricans . I am a customer of businesses Puerto Ricans have opened in the states . The only difference between here and there is the business environment . It is the same environment that we had when I told my daughter there was no future for her in NY . and that she should move to where the government is friendly to business.

I told my kids that about our hometown. They closed up the steel mills and everything else left. That doesn't make the ones left behind losers. Just POOR!

if kids hung around the hometown when there was opportunity elsewhere they are losers . Sorry ,it's the American way . You have to go where the opportunities are ;or create your opportunity where you are .

Some have the money to leave... some don't. Loser is a harsh term for those that don't. Not saying there are no losers out there, but they aren't all poor people. That's why my objection to the application of the term. Some just do not have the social mobility to relocate. With the unemployment so low, there can't be a lot of losers out there now can there? There are still a lot of poor people though.

Tom even if you move you don't always have opportunity, exploiters are everywhere but your description of what happened to PR tells a story of a corrupt government and not just in PR. Of course people will leave but some don't have the means. What is best, swell the slums of the cities or create the opportunities in a place with a labour pool

It doesn't help that the Euro immigrant descendant's don't want to share the land with anyone else despite their Christian proclamations. This ilk is a small but loud and powerful group led by the Mad King Dufus that has completely overthrown one of our major political parties using the tools of fear and division taken right out of the Hitler playbook.

Tal do you hear yourself. You are telling us the brown shirts are marching

Tal do you hear yourself. You are telling us the brown shirts are marching

They don't wear brown shirts anymore, nor white hoods as much. A lot of them use the same symbols and talk the same language of the German Nazis though. Openly and unapologetically.

Look it up! The Dufus has said some of them are good people. Judge for yourself.

They don't wear brown shirts anymore, nor white hoods as much. A lot of them use the same symbols and talk the same language of the German Nazis though. Openly and unapologetically.

Look it up! The Dufus has said some of them are good people. Judge for yourself.

Dump says a lot of things, he opens his mouth and words come out.

Dump says a lot of things, he opens his mouth and words come out.

The are calculated words that serve as red meat for his base. Unfortunately for republicans his base is their base, and crossing him has consequences so they sit in silence no matter what he or his sycophants do. No matter the lies and exaggerations he utters with impunity. The insecure beyatch craves praise and adulation and his naysayers are liars to be punished and destroyed just like any dictator, mob boss, or cult leader.

What? You thought he was JUST a lying, cheating, loud mouth bully? He is all that and the bag of cheaps!

Yes, this was known from the start, but people tend to elect someone who reflects themselves, so what does it say

It says the right wing is so desperate they would turn to a lying cheating Dufus for salvation.

It says the right wing is so desperate they would turn to a lying cheating Dufus for salvation.

Ok and who made them that way?

Ok and who made them that way?

Everybody is responsible for dealing with their OWN fear and desperation. Some are better at it than others.

So what you are saying is you admit your paranoia