In case anybody was still confused...........................

Sen. Marco Rubio, Republican, told reporters Congress will now need to CUT ENTITLEMENT PROGRAMS.
Speaker Paul Ryan, Republican, told reporters he now wants to focus on ELIMINATING GOVERNMENT HANDOUTS.
Evil Trump, Republican, has said more than once he wants to concentrate on "WELFARE REFORM".

What's the best way to do these things? Pass a multi-TRILLION-dollar tax "cut"!

This has been the strategy of the right wing all along. In the guise of cutting taxes, STARVE THE GOVERNMENT OF REVENUES SO THE POOR AND NEEDY STARVE, SICKEN AND DIE BY DEFUNDING SOCIAL SECURITY, MEDICARE AND MEDICAID.

They have even eliminated charitable deductions so the NGOs will slowly wither on the vine.

EVIL TRUMP distracts with renewing conflict in the middle East with his Jerusalem fiasco. Reversing long-standing American policy, he cares nothing for those who will be injured and die by his war-mongering.

Yeah. Another liberal Propaganda dissemination on on the Tax cut... when every other claim the Leftist media have made so far have been Proven to be lies.

Still believe Hillary is as Pure as the driven snow too? Maybe consult CNN...they are never right about ANYTHING.

How do you connect the unconnected? Develop a conspiracy theory. It all a plot to get control of our welfare entitlements. Tax is what makes welfare possible, it also makes the military possible, but more than that borrowing money you never intend to pay back, otherwise known as theft, is another way. You are not raling about the borrowings, Athos, only about the possibility welfare might be reduced. The system is loaded against real change, so you don't have anything to worry about. Thing is, you don't really have entitlements, they are not enshrined in the Constitution. The founders thought you needed a gun to feed yourself, not a government handout. Generous to a fault

Thing is, you don't really have entitlements, they are not enshrined in the Constitution. The founders thought you needed a gun to feed yourself, not a government handout. Generous to a fault
Social Security and Medicare are NOT entitlements, are NOT handouts. Thanks to both of those that we have been required to pay into since we were both 16 and working at our first real jobs, my husband and I are able to keep our heads above water. If SS and Medicare are taken away from us, it becomes out-and-out theft.

The Trump tax cuts are a big scam, but it's hard to notice with all the scandals he has going on and no right wing loony is going to tell me that I am not entitled to SS or medicare after paying in for DECADES!

Wow, you are all confused.
An entitlement is something you are entitled to. That includes SS and Medicare. It does not include MedicAID or any other welfare program, and I'm not going to list them all!

NOT ONE PENNY of the entitlements can be touched. The actual funds are in the General Fund so that they can earn interest from very safe instruments like BONDS. On paper, they cannot be touched, and all those rumors you hear are false, just because they used to each be in a separate physical place. ''Cuts'' don't refer to anything except reducing the payouts so that the funds don't run dry on all of us baby boomers and all of the bloated costs the medical care is costing.

Unfortunately one of the funds, SSDI, does sort of get 'touched' when it shouldn't. Some brilliant people wangled money out of it for disabled kids, a huge % of whom are just unruly in school, so the teacher sends him to the nurse who sends him to a doctor who declares him ADHD, gives him mind screwing drugs, and mom goes running home yelling with delight that her kid 'got his nut check,' usually 700/mo, which our FICA wasn't designed to pay for. So that fund IS dry.

Social Security and Medicare are NOT entitlements, are NOT handouts. Thanks to both of those that we have been required to pay into since we were both 16 and working at our first real jobs, my husband and I are able to keep our heads above water. If SS and Medicare are taken away from us, it becomes out-and-out theft.

Yes if you have paid for it you should get it, but Social Security and Medicare, really isn't the issue, unless the recent tax cuts reduce payments to the ponzi scheme you rely on. What is the issue, as it is in many places, is other forms of welfare, the handouts to various groups because the government hasn't managed to create the great utopian dream of employment for life for all. Mind you, I doubt that was ever the dream in the United States

Wow, you are all confused.
An entitlement is something you are entitled to. That includes SS and Medicare. It does not include MedicAID or any other welfare program, and I'm not going to list them all!

NOT ONE PENNY of the entitlements can be touched. The actual funds are in the General Fund so that they can earn interest from very safe instruments like BONDS. On paper, they cannot be touched, and all those rumors you hear are false, just because they used to each be in a separate physical place. ''Cuts'' don't refer to anything except reducing the payouts so that the funds don't run dry on all of us baby boomers and all of the bloated costs the medical care is costing.

Unfortunately one of the funds, SSDI, does sort of get 'touched' when it shouldn't. Some brilliant people wangled money out of it for disabled kids, a huge % of whom are just unruly in school, so the teacher sends him to the nurse who sends him to a doctor who declares him ADHD, gives him mind screwing drugs, and mom goes running home yelling with delight that her kid 'got his nut check,' usually 700/mo, which our FICA wasn't designed to pay for. So that fund IS dry.

I don't think anyone is confused, there is undoubtedly a scheme to modify or discontinue certain programs, politicians do this all the time, the government giveth and the government taketh away. It is part of assuming the god like qualities of elected office. Think of it as priorities, some people think money should be poured in ADHD when the old remedy of a little disciple and less sugar would do much more, the same goes for obesity, exactly the same remedy, but the industries that fuel the problems are sacrosanct

Everyone here is confused. Including you. First you say 'It all a plot to get control of our welfare entitlements' when welfare is not an entitlement. Then you say 'other forms of welfare' after SS and Medicare. Welfare is welfare, and those 2 are NOT.
Athos is confused by stringing the real entitlements together with welfare.
Even Wondergirl the wordsmith has 'entitlements' backwards!

Some kids do have ADHD but that's not really my issue. I don't want ANY of my lifelong payroll taxes and SE taxes being given to kids. Kids have all sorts of welfare programs available, and they don't need a big fat paycheck. The disability part of our FICA is for us, not our kids. Like I said, it's the first part of the SS fund to go to zero. The main part remains retirement. The second part should be for our own adult disability only, SSDI. If we didn't work enough and get disabled, we go on SSI, the welfare disability, in whole or in part. Few people get all that straight.

The Medicare fund is full but is depleting too fast, thanks to boomers, and living too long past retirement. To top that all off, the medical establishment decided some time ago that the solution to so many people not paying for their care was to jack up prices into the stratosphere. So each year of my retirement sees new cutbacks to coverage (that is NOT the same as cutbacks to the FUNDS). Those ads you see for 'Medicare pays 80% and you pay 20%' are a flat out LIE, and if you actually read the fine print of the book they send you, you will see the qualifiers throughout it. So along comes a bunch of WELFARE programs to add to Medicare. I have one myself, an 'Advantage Plan.' It covers a bit of what Medicare doesn't. If I paid a premium, I could get more. If I paid through the nose, I could get a 'Supplemental Plan,' which would cover everything.

When I go to doctors (seldom), no one knows what to do with my coverage. They are used to all seniors having EITHER Medicaid (welfare) in addition to Medicare, or a Supplemental Plan (often paid for by company retirement plans). In other words, full coverage. I don't. I have the cheapest Advantage Plan, costing me zero. Covers practically nothing.

If you want to call the idea of SS and Medicare, our work insurance plan fund, being sold as bonds and T-bills to earn piddly interest, to be a Ponzi scheme, feel free. It hasn't fallen yet. No fund is being robbed to fund another. It's a pervasive, persistent false rumor.
https://www.ssa.gov/oact/progdata/investheld.html

Lastly, paraclete, did you move from NSW to the US? You say 'our entitlements.' Not being snarky, just curious.

Don't expect those right wing conservative types to understand that government has a duty to help it's own people in times of need (Welfare, medicaid, SSI,) mostly women and children because the only argument they have is that such people who need help are lazy bums. Then they lump ALL programs that help people into one neat category to justify label it as evil and totally unnecessary. Then they tell you who deserves what and rich guys deserve it all.

Want to make America great again? Take care of the least in our society. Women, children, and old people, the sick and displaced. Righties don't believe in that kind of stuff, and the Trump Tax Bill proves it beyond a doubt. They trust rich guys to do the right thing when that's never been proved in history they ever would unless you MAKE them.

I mean Trump came on national TV and said his rich friends would hate him, and he would not benefit from this tax cut. An OBVIOUS bald face LIE!

Even Wondergirl the wordsmith has 'entitlements' backwards!
That word has acquired a pejorative meaning, as an undeserved government handout. That's the meaning I was arguing about.

Wondergirl, I refuse to cave.

What's to cave about since they are ALL government programs designed to help people who have a need for them. The disgust is not having the willingness to help those in need, badmouthing them to justify cutting them off the government TEAT, or dole, and then giving MORE to those that don't need it! A clear case of legalized stealing to the corporate god they worship. Most are as poor as church mice too!

I blame the government for this inequity, and the ideological idiocy by the electorate. I ain't caving on that either, nor am I confused by the rhetorical semantics of right wing loonies! I mean how can you feel good about teaching a man to fish, and then won't let him fish at a pond that actually has fish in it?

Not the end of this rant... I'm just getting started! :o

Wondergirl, I refuse to cave.
I'm not asking you to. I know what it's supposed to mean, but the term has been twisted (not by you). I'm on your team, joypulv!

Athos is confused by stringing the real entitlements together with welfare.


Athos is nothing of the sort. I QUOTED others - the language is theirs.

In any case, you are missing the forest for the trees. Don't key on semantics - try to understand the point. If you remain confused after another reading, go to Talaniman and read what he writes. He lays it out in plain language and makes the point better than I did.

I'm a bleeding heart conservative.
I'm not going to go on and on about my personal knowledge of abuses of all the welfare programs.
They are needed, but people act like idiots.
One glaring example was the CEO of Panera making a big show of eating on 4.20 a day for a month. He said that was the Food STamp amount. There is no 'amount' - it goes by income and other variables, and 4.20 at the time was what you got if you had a low paying full time job, and they are NEVER intended to be the entire food budget, but everyone acts like it is. I live on LESS, very well too, than friends of mine who have nothing but welfare or SSDI and food stamps.

Find me a quote, Athos. Rubio said, "The driver of our debt is the structure of Social Security and Medicare for future beneficiaries." His talk was of STRUCTURAL changes such as the rate and age of Social Security and Medicare payouts. This is nothing new, as we all well know. The retirement age has already risen as has the payout.
Yes, Wondergirl, I know we agree. I just see this whole Breitbart vocabulary taking over and we don't have to let it!

AGAIN, THE FUNDS THEMSELVES CANNOT BE 'CUT' BY LAW AND NO ONE IS TRYING TO DO SO!!!!!!!!!

I wouldn't put it past the current congress to change the law for FUTURE generations.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/12/01/gop-eyes-post-tax-cut-changes-to-welfare-medicare-and-social-security/?utm_term=.c4474fd17557


While whipping votes for the tax bill, Senate Finance Committee Chairman Orrin G. Hatch (R-Utah) attacked “liberal programs” for the poor and said Congress needed to stop wasting Americans' money.

Now what kind of structural reforms could they mean?

Structural reform of ss and medicare!!!!

Face it. It's going to happen because it has to happen. Just living too long ALONE is going to force it!

It is a sensible reform that if people are living longer healthier and productive lives that access to benefits might be delayed to an older age. Just to play the devil's advocate and borrow from arguments in other places; when these programs were developed people didn't live so long, but average life span has risen and general health and health services have improved. Rather than being worn out by a life of hard labour people are healthy well into their seventies and eighties. These schemes were not designed with that population in mind

Living longer and being able to work longer are two different things. Do you really think we are at that point of such a blanket point of view? Is that the ONLY way to reform the system? NO! There are many tools currently, to adjust to the changed conditions we are facing NOW!

https://www.ssa.gov/oact/solvency/provisions/

Work longer for less money should be the last option considering the cost of living for an older person has moved up, NOT down! There is still another group who lives in rural areas decimated by job losses and high unemployment who simply cannot move to another region where there are jobs, what of them? To be frank are not the dilemma of those people what fueled the anger and frustration that led to Trump being the leader of the free world?

Of course it was, and what does the tax cuts he proposes do for them? What would your argument to keep working do for them? Not a damn thing. You miss totally that those tax cuts for the rich would be better funneled to those under these circumstances even if it costs a trillion buck against the budget (Which it would NOT!). Trump touts this notion of him and his buddies getting richer because THEY will help the economy, and that has never proven to work in the history of America. I know doctors and lawyers and tech guys still working, but factory guys? NOT ONE. (Greeters at Walmarts doesn't count)

If you could afford tax cuts for the rich, why can't you take care of your elders who have already worked their whole lives and raised families, and paid for college, and PAID THEIR TAXES for years through payroll deductions. I respectfully submit the argument that they are the ones who made America great not the Trumps of the world who got rich off the honest working class. I reject totally the premise that such people have the credibility, or will, to HONESTLY decide what adjustments are in the best interest of the ordinary citizen.

SCREW RUBIO! He is a punk, and Trump is a lying Dufus! Follow the republican lead at your own risk. I await your ideas with great interest Joy, and Clete.

I actually agree with you tal. I just feel obliged to clear up some of the background misinformation, the key FACT being that NO ONE can touch the entitlement funds (yes, the ones we are entitled to by working), and NO ONE can add to them either. They get SUPPLEMENTED with programs. I get supplemented as a low income/low asset senior. I get a property tax break from my state. I get an Advantage Plan from the state, a welfare addition to the pitiful Medicare coverage. I even get my Medicare premium paid, a rare benefit most states don't offer to seniors (called QMB). And I don't have to pay tax on my SS (I forget the limit)

I accept the fact that we are living longer, even though I don't approve of living long drawn out miserable lives in the Medical Maw, and am fighting tooth and nail to die before I get trapped in it. That means fewer perks and bennies. I wish some of the military budget came my way, but would be even happier if it went to veterans. And so on! Each piece of the pie.

Morning Joy, read this link,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAYGO


Direct spending (or "mandatory spending") is largely composed of "entitlement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entitlement) spending," which means that a group of beneficiaries are entitled to a benefit and, without further legislative action, the government must provide that benefit—hence it is considered to be "mandatory." Only by legislative action can the benefit be either expanded or reduced. If a benefit is expanded or increased, that increase in direct spending must be offset by an increase in revenue or a decrease in direct spending.

Do you really trust Trump and the rest of repubs to NOT cut your benefits? I know Trump SAID no cuts, but he has lied before, and the republican controlled congress especially speaker Ryan, has long wanted to cut OUR entitlements. I see adjustments being made the country has grown in size, and AGE, but I do not see making rich guys wealthier, at a time they are already making BOO-KOO bucks, and forcing hardships on older Americans.

Just as a matter of logic, busting the budget for tax cuts, and adding the proposed increases in military spending, and this so-called jobs bill no one has seen could certainly bring about MO"MONEY out of OUR pockets. Logic or common sense? In addition we have these FACTS based on past performance,

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-tax-buybacks/u-s-investors-target-buyback-stocks-in-bet-on-trump-tax-plan-idUSKBN1D70HX


For example, cash-rich tech companies with big international presence, such as Microsoft, are likely to return cash to shareholders via a one-time dividend even if Congress passes a repatriation bill rather than a broad tax reform, Santoro said.
When Congress allowed U.S. companies to bring back foreign profits at a discounted tax rate in 2004, Microsoft issued a special $3-per-share dividend and the Trump tax windfall would likely lead to something similar, Santoro said.


This is during a time the CHIP program for KIDS expired in September. So can we assume the priorities of the congress is take care of the rich and screw the old and the kids? Logic or common sense?

Want more logic or common sense? The Bush tax cuts combined with the Trump tax cuts don't come close to my insurance premiums deducted directly from my pension check. I love life, so why should I rollover for the rich lying beetch in the White House?

OK, one last time: the funds cannot be raised or lowered. The amounts paid out CAN.

As I and my cohorts born in 1946 age, and those born up to 1955 age, we constitute a top heavy age group. (I can only wish I were top heavy.)
We are hogging both SS and Medicare.
Ergo, we must reduce our allotments, or die sooner, or stay unusually healthy and away from the Medical Maw.
Calculations done on those funds are NOT BASED on ANYTHING other than actuarial data regarding those who are benefiting from the plan.
No, I'm not happy that I'm part of this group, but I don't mix it up with politics. IT ISN'T!!!

CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW?

YES, I hear YOU on the rich and the tax cuts and all the unequal jazz going on.

Tal I told you I was playing Devil's advocate and once again I expected to be hoisted by doing so. We all know there is an element who don't want to foot the bill, who have a percular idea that the poor and the old can materialise money, probably from the deposits they have made in their backyard to avoid these draconian taxes that you don't want reduced for anyone. Get used to it Tal, Taxation is theft, legalised theft. And pork barrelling by government is legalised theft.

OK, one last time: the funds cannot be raised or lowered. The amounts paid out CAN.

As I and my cohorts born in 1946 age, and those born up to 1955 age, we constitute a top heavy age group. (I can only wish I were top heavy.)
We are hogging both SS and Medicare.
Ergo, we must reduce our allotments, or die sooner, or stay unusually healthy and away from the Medical Maw.
Calculations done on those funds are NOT BASED on ANYTHING other than actuarial data regarding those who are benefiting from the plan.
No, I'm not happy that I'm part of this group, but I don't mix it up with politics. IT ISN'T!!!

CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW?

YES, I hear YOU on the rich and the tax cuts and all the unequal jazz going on.

Hey I'm a cohort, and I hope what you say is true, as I have no wish to be a Walmart greeter, or be bossed around by an ambitious 40 year old, who doesn't like the pace of my work. I also have no wish for my kids and grands to be kicked around by some rich lying greedy beetch either.

Please understand my friend, that it's not just Trump that has me riled up, but the whole mess of stuff going on with those DC idiots. I think I might have lost it when my own senator started airing his re-election campaign ad.

Tal I told you I was playing Devil's advocate and once again I expected to be hoisted by doing so. We all know there is an element who don't want to foot the bill, who have a percular idea that the poor and the old can materialise money, probably from the deposits they have made in their backyard to avoid these draconian taxes that you don't want reduced for anyone. Get used to it Tal, Taxation is theft, legalised theft. And pork barrelling by government is legalised theft.

No fair, I didn't hoist you at all (this time 8D !), just ranted my position along with the links. In this country no taxes means your city cannot provide services like cops, teachers and fire departments and its worse in the small rural communities have little or no tax base to depend on. I do agree that taxation is theft when its used improperly, immorally, or wasted on someone who already has a bundle under the mattress. Ditto for that pork barrel stuff that makes a politician look good to the locals.

Reduce taxes, not when there are bills to pay, and work to do. Raise wages is the simple answer. Whatever happened to goodwill? Maybe we get it back after this ideological war.

Please understand my friend, that it's not just Trump that has me riled up, but the whole mess of stuff going on with those DC idiots. I think I might have lost it when my own senator started airing his re-election campaign ad.

Hey Tal, we understand it is hard to drain the swamp when you are up to your arse in alligators, but Trump is a big old salt water crocodile, he likes it in the swamp. You say your own senator, no ordinary person owns a senator, that is reserved for those with money

What I say is true, true true truer than true.

I look around my bankrupt state of CT. Almost bankrupt. Everywhere I look, I see waste at the tiniest level. I see small town grammar schools having soccer coaches. TWO, one for boys and one for girls. I see grief counselors everywhere, when my generation relied on parents, each other, and teachers for FREE. And two principals and two superintendents and so on. My tiny grammar school has the highest per student cost in the US, for under 70 students, going down every year for years, yet people INSIST, smack in the face of that FACT, that if a town HAS a grammar school, people will want to live there. I get an answer to my property tax question from some under secretary to some liason person because the person in charge of senior property taxes doesn't know anything because he got the job from a crony. I get 3 different phone books in my mailbox, despite the fact that no one wants even one, because they are partly funded with taxes. I see so much waste I want to kill myself. And NOT ONE CANDIDATE for governor is willing to sell recreational pot!!! People are brain dead clueless self serving illogical idiots.
And this goes right to the White House. NO ONE wants to give up their job, their agency, their program, no matter how unnecessary it is in hard times. I can't stand it. I'd rather be dead.

No fair, I didn't hoist you at all (this time 8D !), just ranted my position along with the links. In this country no taxes means your city cannot provide services like cops, teachers and fire departments and its worse in the small rural communities have little or no tax base to depend on. I do agree that taxation is theft when its used improperly, immorally, or wasted on someone who already has a bundle under the mattress. Ditto for that pork barrel stuff that makes a politician look good to the locals.

Reduce taxes, not when there are bills to pay, and work to do. Raise wages is the simple answer. Whatever happened to goodwill? Maybe we get it back after this ideological war.

Ok so now we are coming to it, a living minimum wage. You want to know what happened to goodwill, it went out the door when the unions got too much of the cake. You raise wages for the low paid jobs and cut the salaries of those dullard CEO

Okay you tell me how you get a living wage without a union? You are aware that before unions, working conditions and wages were abominable don't you? Do you think the Trump tax cuts will cut CEO pay, and give workers higher wages? Don't you think this bill should carry with it a requirement to raise wages as a condition to get the tax cut?

Why doesn't it? Why are middle class tax cuts eliminated after 5 years and corporate rates made permanent?

Historically there is little goodwill when greed is involved.

Okay you tell me how you get a living wage without a union? You are aware that before unions, working conditions and wages were abominable don't you? Do you think the Trump tax cuts will cut CEO pay, and give workers higher wages? Don't you think this bill should carry with it a requirement to raise wages as a condition to get the tax cut?

Why doesn't it? Why are middle class tax cuts eliminated after 5 years and corporate rates made permanent?

Historically there is little goodwill when greed is involved.

I agree that greed is the source of all evil, however, you want to be competitive and attract industries, you have to move with the times. Your nominal corporate tax rate was high by international standards, you have to divorce this from personal taxation, which is structured to be progressive, in other words, the more you earn the more you pay, and this fuels tax avoidance and evasion. Five years is a long time in politics. Think about how this works, industries have an incentive to invest, so a short tax holiday, but to keep the holiday they have to keep doing it. The alternative is to sit on their cash as they have been doing, interest rates are low so no profit in that. The middle class are always the cash cow, they don't have the same ability to avoid tax. Trump said he didn't get anything out of this. In order to benefit you have to have a tax liability and all he is good at is making losses.

As far as unions are concerned, workers need protection, but not to get greedy as they have done. You get a living wage when governments get serious about protecting the people who elected them, You can't give an aussie a lesson on the effectiveness of unions, but ours had to be tamed, many criminals find their way into unions

Don't get me going on unions. They are mere ghosts of what they were originally. They are now just greedy bastards sitting on billions in assets, fighting for ever more bloated contracts each year that are totally out of the realm of what is going on in the world economies, putting family and cronies in jobs right out of high school that pay double what anyone else gets, doing nothing these days but toll booth collecting and other stuff that isn't in the competitive world like knowing how to run that computer that builds that mechanical part. UGH! I despise unions. Labor laws cover everything a worker needs.

I agree that greed is the source of all evil,

Good luck getting a capitalist to agree with that, because to them greed is good!

however, you want to be competitive and attract industries, you have to move with the times.

How are Corporate Americans not competitive making more money than they ever have in history without tax cuts? You are buying into the GREED! Their words and bank accounts don't march!

Your nominal corporate tax rate was high by international standards, you have to divorce this from personal taxation, which is structured to be progressive, in other words, the more you earn the more you pay, and this fuels tax avoidance and evasion.

Free slave labor attracts business! We had a war over it. Now they take cheap labor as their motive. So tell me about being competitive with lower tax rates when companies don't pay that rate in reality. Too many loopholes that are still there. The disparity in the corporate written tax bill is the good old boy has to honor it in ways that make it work correctly as advertised. There are no guard rails he has to obey to get the tax cut, and fact is they never have and already we see them passing on the fruit to their boards and buying back their stocks, so the whole premise that workers will have higher wages has yet to be realized and while we hope they do, it won't happen enough to create DEMAND which is the REAL way to grow the economy. Of course that brings higher interest rates and prices as demand increases, but supply also has to increase and that's just the balance for profits and wages that investors and worker can all benefit from. The Reagan and Bush tax cuts bear that out, as wages flattened and recession followed. Now if they wrote requirements into this bill, a thing NEVER done before, and got rid of those legal cheating loopholes, not only do you incentivise the goal of greater demand, and higher wages, and make it much harder to cheat and get away with it.

Five years is a long time in politics. Think about how this works, industries have an incentive to invest, so a short tax holiday, but to keep the holiday they have to keep doing it. The alternative is to sit on their cash as they have been doing, interest rates are low so no profit in that. The middle class are always the cash cow, they don't have the same ability to avoid tax. Trump said he didn't get anything out of this. In order to benefit you have to have a tax liability and all he is good at is making losses.

It doesn't have to be a short tax holiday, but keeping high end tax cuts and eliminating middle class tax cuts was just a gimmick to make the short term numbers look better, as by law the process they are using, reconciliation, to only need 51 senate votes caps the overall costs of their tax cuts, and as an accountant you should have picked up on that, but without knowing the LAW here, of course you couldn't know that. Most Americans don't know that either.

As far as unions are concerned, workers need protection, but not to get greedy as they have done. You get a living wage when governments get serious about protecting the people who elected them, You can't give an aussie a lesson on the effectiveness of unions, but ours had to be tamed, many criminals find their way into unions

There is greed driven corruption everywhere, always has been, but even you Aussies and the whole world has benefited from the good stuff unions have done while you only point out the corruption. That's a perfect example of throwing out the baby with the bath water. Actually the things that made the unions necessary, factories, mines and industrial complexes have been replaced by technology,at least here, so the need for great labor numbers has been slashed by nearly 80%, while actual production is way up almost double. Even you accountants have gone tech to survive RIGHT?

Thanks for your thoughts I enjoy the interaction.

HEY! I've been a capitalist since I don't know when, I guess when I stopped wanted to work for anyone, gov't or another capitalist.
Greed may be the root of evil, but it doesn't have to be the root of capitalism.
I have never met a social gov't agency that wasn't populated for the most part with greedy individuals out for one thing - their job, the guarantee of it continuing, and increasing pay and benefits.
In other words, survival is built into humans because we are animals and survival is part of life.
We have CONTROLS for capitalism gone amok.
Socialist democracy. Doesn't matter what you call it.

Oh and I'm sick of the term 'living wage.' It's meaningless. You don't get out of high school, get pregnant, get a 2 bedroom apartment, and a PT job, or even 2 of you with 2 meager incomes, and get to demand enough wages for it. You do what I did - live with roommates and use birth control and work low level jobs and learn a skill and save. Yes, I had the privilege of being white and having books in the home, but I didn't go to college or trade school. I taught myself a marketable skill.

HEY! I've been a capitalist since I don't know when, I guess when I stopped wanted to work for anyone, gov't or another capitalist.


Hey Joy, I usually agree with you but I don't see you as a capitalist, but survivor like the rest of us, and been through a lot trying to thrive a you survive. To be clear I don't think you follow the capitalist model as a be all tolife,nor have the advantage of a silver spoon to make the medicine go down.

Greed may be the root of evil, but it doesn't have to be the root of capitalism.

Unless you are a greedy capitalist. You and me cannot buy a politician or even be an influence to one. Greed does not drive us, nor do we need to hoard money at any cost. I know how frugal you are though I've read your stuff for years. I think you are like most of us just trying to keep what we work for, and save a few pennies when we can.

I have never met a social gov't agency that wasn't populated for the most part with greedy individuals out for one thing - their job, the guarantee of it continuing, and increasing pay and benefits.

Lets not mistake everyday workers with the execs who run them, and carry out policies from above. Big difference. Not to say some of them need serious retraining, but there are plenty who are just humans who want to survive, and most who want to do a good job. I blame the BOSS or the bosses boss!

In other words, survival is built into humans because we are animals and survival is part of life.

Totally agree on mostly every level.

We have CONTROLS for capitalism gone amok.
Socialist democracy. Doesn't matter what you call it.

Disagree totally! Somebody somewhere is profiting mightily from capitalism gone amok! It's entirely by design no matter what its called, democracy, socialism, or communism. I guess I don't TOTALLY disagree....HMMM! 8O

Oh and I'm sick of the term 'living wage.' It's meaningless.

Living wage has a lot of meaning to me. It mean you can support yourself without a government handout every month. I always use the Walmart example a working person who needs welfare benefits to even survive. There should be NO working poor in America. Not if you work for a highly profitable multinational company. What's wrong with that picture?

You don't get out of high school, get pregnant, get a 2 bedroom apartment, and a PT job, or even 2 of you with 2 meager incomes, and get to demand enough wages for it. You do what I did - live with roommates and use birth control and work low level jobs and learn a skill and save. Yes, I had the privilege of being white and having books in the home, but I didn't go to college or trade school. I taught myself a marketable skill.

I have a PHD from the school of hard knocks myself Joy. :D It wasn't as easy as I made it look either!

Capitalism gives the smallest of us some meaning. It can be a small farm stand, or lawn mower repair, or landscaping, or any number of ventures that STILL need to be local. (O wait, the farm stand doesn't)

Greedy capitalists are horrible.
Nations made up of gov't agencies, each with their own self serving agenda, are just as bad in a mind numbing way that to me is worse than fighting Big Daddy Warbucks. There's no one to fight!

I come from generations of New England farmers followed more recently by entrepreneurs.
I will take on the fight against the bloated profiteers over the insidious behemoth gov't agencies any day of the week.

IT'S THE BEST WE'VE GOT.

Also, Athos, your 'truth' about the tax bill is just plain flat out wrong when you say no more charity deduction.
Where do you get this crap?
I may not like it either, I may agree that it favors the rich, but I won't lie just to get people to not like it.

Capitalism gives the smallest of us some meaning. It can be a small farm stand, or lawn mower repair, or landscaping, or any number of ventures that STILL need to be local. (O wait, the farm stand doesn't)

Greedy capitalists are horrible.
Nations made up of gov't agencies, each with their own self serving agenda, are just as bad in a mind numbing way that to me is worse than fighting Big Daddy Warbucks. There's no one to fight!

I come from generations of New England farmers followed more recently by entrepreneurs.
I will take on the fight against the bloated profiteers over the insidious behemoth gov't agencies any day of the week.

IT'S THE BEST WE'VE GOT.

Hey again my friend,

Before it became capitalism, it was called commerce, or trade. Yeah they were greedy back then too, but it was more market based I believe as opposed to market driven. It's still the arena for the better off and poverty persist all over the place still, but I can concede the bureaucratic red tape of government can be both cumbersome and unfair, just as the distribution of wealth is unfair and unequal.

It's likely more accurate to say our system is the best in the world, but can it be BETTER? Sure it can. I just don't think Trump and the repubs are going to move us in that direction, but as you say we will survive these idiots as we have survived the idiots before them. People can thrive despite the obstacles governments, or greedy b@stards put before them, and that's the point.

I wonder though if our elected officials are working for us or the greedy b@stards who give them BOOKOO bucks! That's the scam that's perpetrated on the citizens, and the idiots of vote against their own self interests.

I wonder though if our elected officials are working for us or the greedy b@stards who give them BOOKOO bucks! That's the scam that's perpetrated on the citizens, and the idiots of vote against their own self interests.

You must love rhetorical questions.

My criticism of the system is not rhetorical.

Tal, by rhetorical I mean it is a self answering question, the answer being apparent without comment from me.

We all want to drain the swamp, get rid of the freeloaders and fellow travellers, lobbyists and influence peddlers, as well as those who feed from the trough of corruption but so long as your system allows the White House to be filled with sycophants who have no responsibility to your electorate you are royally screwed. Trump is such a mess he can't even fill the cabinet positions

Damn! I can't dispute those allegations. We have an election tomorrow to fill a vacant senate seat in the state of Alabama. The Trump sycophant is accused of all kinds of predatory sexual behavior as well as being a stone to the bone racist. He's favored to win. Our diet cokehead president and the republican party are backing him because they need his vote to pass that monstrosity of a tax bill next year.

You guys got Netflix and popcorn in Australia? I might have to visit for a FEW YEARS!

Damn! I can't dispute those allegations. We have an election tomorrow to fill a vacant senate seat in the state of Alabama. The Trump sycophant is accused of all kinds of predatory sexual behavior as well as being a stone to the bone racist. He's favored to win. Our diet cokehead president and the republican party are backing him because they need his vote to pass that monstrosity of a tax bill next year.

You guys got Netflix and popcorn in Australia? I might have to visit for a FEW YEARS!

Yes, we have all sorts of wonders including the NBN, Netflix sort of restricts content a bit, but we have Stan too, and Telstra where they give you the world for $100 a month. I'm into chocolate ginger myself. You may be interested to know that one of our Senators, who was feeding from the Chinese trough, has been forced to resign, chalk up one for the good guys.

You know among the young they use coke to mask all sorts of concoctions so who knows what Dump is drinking but with that much caffeine in his system he must be a bit shaky.

I though your tax bill already passed but then this reconciliation process confuses me. I'm a simple soul, the bill either passes or it does not, you negotiate before the vote not after

You would think that's how it was done, especially a no brainer like tax cuts. EVERYBODY loves those, but this scam NOBODY but rich guys like it. They should, they wrote the darn thing. Truth be told, repubs are scrambling for enough votes even in the house to get this done. Many conservative constituents are protesting the inequality of this sham, and giving their lawmakers an earful, so it's game on.

The democratic party is hands off and repubs in big democratic states are shaking in their boots afraid of losing their jobs. Send me some of that popcorn will ya', extra cheese no butter. It's been a long year already, and 2018 promises to be full of fireworks here.

You would think that's how it was done, especially a no brainer like tax cuts. EVERYBODY loves those, but this scam NOBODY but rich guys like it. They should, they wrote the darn thing. Truth be told, repubs are scrambling for enough votes even in the house to get this done. Many conservative constituents are protesting the inequality of this sham, and giving their lawmakers an earful, so it's game on.

The democratic party is hands off and repubs in big democratic states are shaking in their boots afraid of losing their jobs. Send me some of that popcorn will ya', extra cheese no butter. It's been a long year already, and 2018 promises to be full of fireworks here.


Don't you have any popcorn over there? This was a terrible year in many ways, let me count the ways, no, better not to. I think 2018 might not be as bad, at least the war in Iraq is over, and Syria is all but finished, even Vlad thinks so. The way things are going in the Ukraine, that problem might be solved soon too. This will bring us to China and NK, now if Dump could see his way clear to take the fleets home for Christmas

I don't think the world has found peace and it's more likely just off the attention of the mainstream news. No doubt more hotspots will erupt to help distract us and no telling what Dufus does about them, something loud and goofy as always. Not really worried about Kim getting a sucker punch in, that's been tried before, but the chances of him getting sneaky with his technology, and making the wrong type of friends, is a worrisome proposition.

Actually it's been a good year all things considered, thanks to popcorn and Netflix, and we have plenty of both here, but obviously I'm thinking of a vacation. An island paradise sounds good.

I don't think the world has found peace and it's more likely just off the attention of the mainstream news. No doubt more hotspots will erupt to help distract us and no telling what Dufus does about them, something loud and goofy as always. Not really worried about Kim getting a sucker punch in, that's been tried before, but the chances of him getting sneaky with his technology, and making the wrong type of friends, is a worrisome proposition.

Actually it's been a good year all things considered, thanks to popcorn and Netflix, and we have plenty of both here, but obviously I'm thinking of a vacation. An island paradise sounds good.

Kim is taking a nasty turn researching biological weapons. He knows he couldn't make enough nukes to make serious inroads into the US but his rockets could deliver biological weapons. I think this tells us what we should already know, his testing program has exhausted his supply for now. I think he might already have a back door to the Iranians but it must be difficult to go from one place to the other. Africa is looking like there are problems there, a lot of long festering rat holes that the remnant of IS can infiltrate

You want an island paradise, we have a number here the advantage being you are not too far from civilisation. I recommend a barrier reef cruise, sailing in pristine waters

Secretary of State Tillerson has come out and said he was willing talk with Kim with NO preconditions attached. Meaning he doesn't have to agree to giving up, or curbing his nukes just to talk. 'BOUT time, if Trump would keep his big mouth shut long enough. Bio weapons are a whole nother big headache, but the consequences of openly using, selling, such hardware is the same as with the nukes. The middle east is still the hotspot, but Africa has always been, just not widely publicized until recently. You know how it goes when colonial powers leave a big mess, it takes a long time to clean up.

Yes Talking is a plus, you are less likely to fight with someone you talk to, but Trump won't take not being the top of the pile for long and will do something to upset it

Also, Athos, your 'truth' about the tax bill is just plain flat out wrong when you say no more charity deduction.


This comment by joypulv is 100% correct. By the time I wrote it, the elimination of the charity deduction had been withdrawn and, to date, it has not been resurrected.

What charity administrators do fear, however, is that with a doubling of the standard deduction which will eliminate the requirement for many filers to itemize deductions, the tax benefit of charitable giving will diminish since these filers will no longer itemize.

The basic flaws of the tax plan remain: that the middle class tax cuts will phase out leading to a tax INCREASE for that group, and the tax cuts for the wealthy are PERMANENT. And the lie that tax cuts generate revenues that will pay for the cuts. Also known as trickle down, voodoo economics and the Laffer curve, this false economic theory (developed on a napkin in a bar by Arthur Laffer) has been proven false with Reagan, Bush2, and soon Trump.

(Thank you to another member here for bringing this charitable deduction oversight to my attention.)

Voodoo economics or not, someone will benefit over the next few years and the structure will mean the democrats won't have to increase taxes immediately. People love to pick holes in plans; not enough, benefits the wrong people, cuts the corporate rate, increases the debt, but there must be some pluses here hidden behind the rhetoric. Cutting some of the red tape, encouraging investment, lowering the burden on someone on the 50% poverty rate. What I have found over the years is that people are perverse and they don't react as expected particularly where tax is concerned. These tax cuts might mean a higher rate of dividend and they certainly mean no one can be taxed for not having health insurance, the most draconian measure in living history

Voodoo economics or not, someone will benefit over the next few years and the structure will mean the democrats won't have to increase taxes immediately. People love to pick holes in plans; not enough, benefits the wrong people, cuts the corporate rate, increases the debt, but there must be some pluses here hidden behind the rhetoric. Cutting some of the red tape, encouraging investment, lowering the burden on someone on the 50% poverty rate. What I have found over the years is that people are perverse and they don't react as expected particularly where tax is concerned. These tax cuts might mean a higher rate of dividend and they certainly mean no one can be taxed for not having health insurance, the most draconian measure in living history


No, no, no, no, no, no, and no.

Those who benefit are the rich and the corporations. The middle class will get a small benefit (1-2K the first year, NOT the 4-9K promised by Trump). Then the middle will pay tax increases as their benefits phase out and expire while the rich will continue to receive their massive benefits PERMANENTLY.

Then Trump and his Republican allies claim the corporate windfalls will result in more jobs and higher wages. Bulls***. The corporations will declare dividends for their already wealthy shareholders and will buy back their stock. The rich will horde their windfalls as they always have done in the past. You want the economy pumped? Give it to the middle class and the poor. They'll SPEND it!

Corporations are wallowing in profits today and there is no need to pump them up in this economic climate. The plan's destruction of the health mandate is in this farce for one reason only - simply to assuage Trump's completely nutty obsession with Obama.

Then there's the deficit. Historically the Republicans screamed bloody murder when the deficit increased. What do they say this time as THEY purposely increase the deficit by a WHOPPiNG 1.5 TRILLION DOLLARS? They lie that the increased revenue coming from the non-existent corporate expansion will pay for the tax cuts. The entire world knows this is more Bull****. This plan is approved by a scant 30% of Americans. That's even less than Trump's core.

Finally, note that Trump et al want the plan approved by next week. A ONE THOUSAND page tax plan with NO time to analyze it, take it apart, discuss it, and arrive at a fair plan.

We don't know what Trump stands to gain by his plan. But we DO know that his loud public proclamation that he "and his friends" will be financially hurt by this plan is an incredible LIE! Based on what we DO know about Trump and his holdings, he and his family will gain something MORE than several hundred MILLION dollars!

Trump is raping America.

Well, relax and enjoy

Well, relax and enjoy


<comment deleted by Athos>

At least Trump can pay his Russian boyfriend back now! Vlad is happy and that's all he cares about.

Yes they will march in lockstep into the abyss

Unfortunately they will take us to the abyss with them. It should be official today, and becomes LAW 60 days after signing. Just in time for donors to pick sides and fund the 2018 elections.

Well Tal you will know in eleven months whether they like it or not, probably few will have had benefit by then. Think of this though, it is a positive that they could agree about something

The Republican Party can ALWAYS agrees on tax cuts, that's what they do best. It ALWAYS makes big deficits and Democrats get swept in and clean up the mess. This is the first time in my lifetime though they have so brazenly enriched themselves. Usually they TRY and hide it like good politicians. At least now they can dump Trump after he signs this monstrosity, for high crimes and misdemeanors, and conspiring with the Russians to subvert the 2016 election.

Then we can drain the swamp!

Not with the Democrats, you can't, they are just as much swamp critters as the Republicans. No, you need a good, ole, revolution, many firing squads, guillotines, gallows and general anarchy. Maybe that's what that cache of UN vehicles is for

Despite all the drug induced gloom and doom from the hysterical left about how everything belongs to the government and how unfair it is to keep anything you earn...

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/th...owe-2017-10-26 (http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/redirect-to/?redirect=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.marketwatch.com%2Fstor y%2Fthe-new-trump-tax-calculator-what-do-you-owe-2017-10-26)

MOST people are going to keep a lot more of what they worked hard to earn.

We don't do the blood and guts stuff in our civil wars any more, not this close to an election, but draining the swamp and getting rid of some of The Dufus's greedy sycophants is in order. In modern times Dems have always cleaned up Republican messes. That's not going to change it seems, though this is the biggest mess since Nixon I have ever seen.

The lovefest that followed the passing of the Tax Bill was disgusting, but I can understand the glee at pulling off a trillions of dollars heist right in front of everyone's face. Will they get away with it? That's the real question.


Despite all the drug induced gloom and doom from the hysterical left about how everything belongs to the government and how unfair it is to keep anything you earn...

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/th...owe-2017-10-26 (http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/redirect-to/?redirect=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.marketwatch.com%2Fstor y%2Fthe-new-trump-tax-calculator-what-do-you-owe-2017-10-26)

MOST people are going to keep a lot more of what they worked hard to earn.

Corporations already keep all of their money. Whose money are they keeping now? How much are you going to get from the pie?

Heist from WHO... The government doesn't own everything... and allow you to keep a portion. That's OUR money WE earned... not them. They aren't ENTITLED to all of it. How much over and above what you are REQUIRED to give the government do you give... you are aware you can do that, there is a line on your tax return forms for it, just give them all of it. Me I worked for it unlike the entitlement whores who leach off people like me, I want to keep what I worked for.

Personally I strongly WELFARE should end... and able bodied people scamming off disability should be kicked off it too, only those with a REAL disability should see a dime. Fat and Lazy is not a disability.

Hell almost half the people NOW aren't paying their fair share, and they don't think they should pay any at all....and those same lazy bums think the productive half should give them even more free stuff. Sorry, NO sympathy for them....get a job. work like I've had to do or go hungry.

LOL, there are not enough able bodied people on welfare to make a difference unless you count the children or their mama's who are more than half, or the disabled, or old. You loonies have been hollering about that treasure trove of slackers for decades now, while ignoring the working poor who need 3 jobs AND government assistance to buy groceries and pay rent and keep on the lights. Don't believe me? Look at the set up Walmart has that already get a tax break for building a store, and get the wages they pay subsidized by taxpayers too, AND get cheap slave labor to make their products.

You are against welfare, but FOR rich guy welfare? Give me a break with that loony logic my friend. Labor cost are cheaper in Africa than China for your president's daughters clothing line, so what does he do, try to move her sweat shops to Africa to make hi end clothes for rich people, or fashion minded want to be's. She works hard for her money...yeah right!

Daddy made sure she got the money to do it with for sure. LOL, The Dufus has a history of bankruptcies and brings that to the government and you love that too, don't you? Screw those lazy workers he stiffed! Or the banks who will never lend him a dime but Vlad will bankroll him anytime! Bet you loved his MISSION ACCOMPLISHED photo OP with his sycophants yesterday too. You don't have to answer that my friend, I understand you haven't had a lot to celebrate lately, and may be too giddy at the moment, tomake sense.

Hey, enjoy it while it lasts. Glad your finally happy after all those sourpuss years! :D You're cute when you smile in a crocodile sort of way. You are smiling aren't you? Hard to tellwith you sometimes, as it's very rare.

Tal, I grew up in a state that has far more than its share of entitled people, in the County that has the highest percentage. So I grew up knowing a LOT of welfare bums... 99% of them were able bodied enough to do major work on their own cars and trucks.. many of them held under the table jobs.

The RICH people you hate so much pay MOST of the taxes now and have for a very, very long time.. even government statistics prove it, it's the left even those who are among them that choose to be willfully ignorant of it.

This false claim about "Rich" people paying nothing? Pure bull. Ever hear of the Alternative MINIMUM tax... you can't deduct your way lower than that. And THAT is far more than 49% of the population pays now BEFORE their deductions cut that to nothing... and some of the leaches get back money they never paid to begin with.

I'm far from "rich" but I fall in the range that alternative minimum tax applies to.4892648927

I'm with smoothy no paying for freeloaders

I'm with smoothy no paying for freeloaders
Then let's teach them to fish.

By all means, should be taught in schools

Then let's teach them to fish.

How about letting them fish in a pond that has fish in it!

How about letting them fish in a pond that has fish in it!
Even better idea! Maybe those getting the huge tax cuts will have extra money so they can restock the pond.

By all means, should be taught in schools
Definitely we should drop the "every kid deserves to go to college" talk, and spend time on teaching industrial arts and practical skills to encourage future plumbers, electricians, construction workers, roofers, carpenters, zoo and animal care workers, auto mechanics, etc.

A few musicians and artists wouldn't hurt the culture.

Yes how are you doing with that?

GREAT, and getting better.

No comment

No comment to what? You always have a comment, and I for one value it.


Definitely we should drop the "every kid deserves to go to college" talk, and spend time on teaching industrial arts and practical skills to encourage future plumbers, electricians, construction workers, roofers, carpenters, zoo and animal care workers, auto mechanics, etc.

Or


A few musicians and artists wouldn't hurt the culture.

Which of these comments offered is it you have no comment too?

I know you made a distinction before about trades and professions, but they are both HONEST work are they not? Or do you think that artists and musicians are a waste of human time and non productive and don't contribute to the good of the society and culture? Or do you stand with Smoothy about the VAST numbers of able bodies that don't want to work at all?

LOL, The Dufus is taking credit for turning America around in a few months, and indeed things are definitely trending up, but they were before he got here, and the finances of the whole global community have shown the same trends. So while we slobber all over the guy with praise, lets watch what the recipients of those hi end trillion of windfall dollars do with their gains.

It's really easy to take credit for a few 3% quarterly growth results, but if it's not sustained over time, or wages don't grow and create DEMAND will he also take the blame?

No comment to great and getting better, aspirations are terrific, but we really want to see improvement among your artists and musicians, we can't keep lending you ours

I really don't care about Trump, he takes credit for things that don't have a lot to do with him, but he has a few years to put runs on the board, let us see then. When he can turn in years without recession, he will have something to crow about.

Look Tal, a strong america is good in world affairs, same can be said for EU, Russia or China. Let us just have more cooperation and less argy bargy

I gotcha and concur and my apologies for past name calling as I really shouldn't be so blunt (Or mistaken) to make a point, but I guess passions can run wild, and the written word betrays intents. Argy bargy is my natural state, but debate is the desired one. Damn those personal flaws.

I will strive to do better Clete, as I much enjoy our interactions. I hope you don't mind if I don't hold my breath waiting for The Dufus to do better than he has. I have zero tolerance for lying bully con men who require his sycophant to slobber over him, as that doesn't make America great or strong. It does the opposite and I get really argy bargy about that.

Nor will I hold my breath waiting for the greedy rich capitalists to do the right things with all that loot repubs bestowed upon them with NO strings attached. I get really argy bargy about that too!

https://www.arcamax.com/newspics/158/15886/1588621.gif

Hey Tal I wasn't meaning your argy bargy, but Trump's, we are just talking, and sometimes I voice my frustration. You see I have always tolerated fools poorly, and with Trump on the throne it is an affront to common sense, but everything that is done is not his doing. We have fools here to, but our system tends to deal with them a little quicker, they are unable to hide in a big White House

The Dufus may THINK he can hide in the big white house, but he will soon learn it is a fishbowl and everyone can watch him. Yeah we move very slowly most times, even though Republicans have moved very fast with this tax cut thing, but they will get what they deserve, of that you can be assured.

I suppose all the whinny liberals are going to donate their tax return to the treasury this year to help pay down Obamas record deficits rather than have it returned to them and at least the next three since they don't want to keep any more of their money. And the Canadians, You don't pay taxes here so what business is it of yours how much or little we pay. Most of you have never even filed US income taxes so what do you know about our process.

Though provocative, your post is factually incorrect. Nonetheless, I wish you and yours a great holiday my friend

Likewise have a happy holiday as well.

https://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/gift/gift.htm


For those who feel they don't pay enough taxes now... link shows how you can give it to the Treasury to pay down O'bummers record deficits.

I actually liked the way Reagan managed his tax cuts with help from the dems. He lowered them when he could, but when it was necessary, he raised them to cover those events that needed to be paid for without raising the deficit significantly. Lets face it, no middle class citizen will get rich from these tax cuts, and rich guys will make out like bandits, but if they don't trickle down enough crumbs for main street then you can bet they will have a problem on their hands.

Easy to pop your fingers, and shake your butt when things are going good, but you still have to pay those bills, and be ready for when stuff happens beyond your control. Personally I didn't elect my reps in the congress to give themselves and their donors a raise, nor would I donate part of my money toward them, which seems to be YOUR perception of the dem position. It's not, and you are in error, I believe, because fact is nobody manages their budgets that way, and the basic flaw of the tax cuts is they passed that before they even have a budget which is patently irresponsible in my view. You don't get to give away the loot through deficit spending, then holler there is no more money for the bills to be paid, so until we see the results of the repub actions play out, then you guys own the results whatever happens. You took the risk so you get the credit, or the consequences of that risk.

Go ahead get a motor cycle, or golf clubs before you pay the rent, or your credit cards, and let me know what the names your wife called you were.

not going to read all the replies . Since the Kennedy 1960s ;supply side tax cuts have been the best way to stimulate growth. We wasted almost a decade trying Obama's Keynesian ideas and all we got was a version of stagnation. I feel very bad for the 30 somethings who entered into the work force ;or could not find jobs .Those who were fortunate to work ,even in higher skilled positions saw flat wage growth for the decade .

To those who mock "trickle down " please note that immediately after the tax bill was signed ,those 'greedy corporate bass turds began giving bonuses and pay increases to their work force .
Expect a stampede of companies handing out bonuses, raising pay, spending on capital projects and giving to charities, with the windfall from the massive corporate tax cuts
. Expect utility rates to start dropping too.

As for entitlement reform ....well as I enter the age when I start becoming eligible for government programs I've paid for since 1972 ; I still say entitlement reform is long over due , As long as the government continues to plunder payroll taxes that are specific to entitlements ,and spends it as general revenue ;then the programs will continue to be unsustainable . Again ;these 30 somethings who cannot purchase homes and were being forced to pay for health insurance they couldn't afford and did not want (thanks to Congress for eliminating the unconstitutional Obamacare mandate ) ; they must look at the SS and Medicare withdrawals from their paycheck with disgust ......They know damn well that money will not be there when their time comes because it will be being paid out to the generation who plundered funds . Don't be surprise that if there isn't major reform NOW ;that when they get their turn at the seat of power ;that they wack the geezers hard .

Government handouts and Welfare reform ? The one thing Bubba got right was reforming welfare . It was he that came up with the workfare programs that the emperor eliminated .

The one thing that disturbs me is that pretty much every lawmaker except Rand Paul has abandoned any thoughts of reducing spending . Herr Donald is a central government master planner and he is dragging the Repubics along with him . Shame of the conservatives in government for abandoning this central premise of their platform.

It's the Dufus Show and the repubs are his willing sycophants, because without him they can't get any of their agenda done. That's the price you pay for wanting his signature.

I really don't know what all the who-ha is about, I don't pay any income tax, and I recommend it

clete redistribution is a fancy way of saying taking from someone and giving it to someone else . That is what most of the taxes are . This plan is supposed to be "simplified " and yet the loopholes are a thousand pages long . But the plan for all it's flaws is still supply side in concept ;and since the Kennedy tax plan of 1963 (passed in 1964 after his death ) ;supply side economics has been the right prescription for this country .

There are many failed economic ideas Tom, and this tax plan has been modified, and once again you have a camel, a horse designed by a committee. What it does is change the emphasis on corporate taxation, a failed concept, it hasn't done much for individuals, but you might get some profits repatriated

A better economic plan for growth would be creating demand by NOT penalizing working people with low wages they cannot possibly live on, while subsidizing rich multinationals paying those low wages with taxpayer money through tax breaks, tax cuts, loopholes, and cheap labor. If yo want facts the economic policies and the results can be found here.

https://www.thebalance.com/president-john-f-kennedy-s-economic-policies-3305560

A better economic plan for growth would be creating demand by NOT penalizing working people with low wages they cannot possibly live on, while subsidizing rich multinationals paying those low wages with taxpayer money through tax breaks, tax cuts, loopholes, and cheap labor. If yo want facts the economic policies and the results can be found here.

https://www.thebalance.com/president-john-f-kennedy-s-economic-policies-3305560

Tal, you will get no argument from me about a minimum living wage, we should have gotten to the point by now that either people are entitled to a fair living, or they are not entitled to be here. There are just not enough jobs for the unskilled, the lowly skilled, and maybe even the skilled

What it does is change the emphasis on corporate taxation, a failed concept, exactly ! Corporations should not be taxed .They don't absorb the cost .They pass it on to their customers.

Corporations should be taxed FAIRLY to support this country's general welfare, security, and infrastructures, like any other citizen is obligated to. SCOTUS decided that when they agreed that corporations are people too.

They should not be allowed ANY benefit unless they accept that responsibility as citizens.

btw ;after voting against the Bill ,Bolshevik Bernie is now saying the "middle class" tax cuts should be permanent . As you know ;they couldn't be made permanent because there was no Democrat support for them so they did not make the 60 vote threshold necessary to avoid reconciliation.

YOUR Senator Cruz has reached out to Bernie to co sponsor legislation to make the tax cuts permanent . Will Bernie go along with it or let petty politics stand in the way ? Will you support YOUR Senator's efforts to make the tax cuts permanent ?

I don't believe in permanent tax cuts for anybody especially if they are deficit sponsored. Makes no sense, and destroys the flexibility to raise and lower taxes, by need and target them narrowly. Learned that from Reagan who raised and lowered taxes to meet budgetary, and deficit challenges that are known to pop up like a war, that Bush paid for on the credit card, or natural disasters that have already reared their head in the Dufus Dynasty. It just ain't smart, and lets blame repubs for this reconciliation deal to purposely cut out the dems, and use their non participation against them.

They could have written a bill that would pass with 60 votes if the wanted to, but this last minute giveaway without closing loopholes was the intention all along. They got what they wanted and will the middle class take their hush money and reward repubs for the way they have been governing?

We'll see soon enough because repubs own the consequences of whatever outcome happens now as a result of their actions.

my prediction is a growth rate of 5 % will be the result of this tax law. and as Jack Kemp taught us ;a rising tide lifts all boats .

If business does it's part and raises wages and stimulates demand, it's very possible. Higher even but should we bet that that's going to happen, or that it will even be sustained for any long term frame? Or will they trickle enough crumbs to get their sycophants re elected? They make money even if they don't, so I am cautious and not very optimistic that they will do as intended. Especially in states that didn't mandate a higher wage.

History says that business will take the money and RUN, and repubs will have to explain that. What happens when other countries reduced their taxes even lower? That is almost guaranteed to happen.

low taxes are good for all. I intend now to join the fight to get my state to lower it's taxes .NY and other blue states need to get on board .They have been ripping off their people for years knowing that the Federal tax system would partially subsidize it .

We can have that debate, but I'm not sure what you mean by ripping off, so help me out as logic tells me that a high value, high populated, area needs a lot of taxes just to support the energy and water bills. We are talking 8 million folks in NYC, alone right? Hmm, even with the biggest casino in the known world... Wall Street, it would seem that NYS would be flush. WHY isn't it?

In addition how does that help those poor red states that take more of those federal dollars than they put in? If Big blue states are contributing to the federal coffers why should they get less back than the red states who don't? Not logical.

let the states tax until the cows come home . I don't care .That is the state's business and the people of the state's business. The people can vote with the ballot or with their feet . I have always objected to this notion that the den of thieves in Albany can plunder my money and then say .....but you can deduct it from your Federal Taxes . Why should the people of Texas have to pay for a carp sandwich like this ?
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/1/1/14112776/new-york-second-avenue-subway-phase-2
I joked about the Big Dig in Boston ;but they are pikers compared to the corruption in Albany and Manhattan.

If you crunch the numbers, and figure out how much more federal income tax residents of NY state will pay with the scaling back of the SALT deduction (and mortgage interest cap), I would wager it couldn't buy 1 mile of subway track/tunnel...

I'll bet you would care if those taxes weren't deductible, but tell me, Tom, what happens to those who don't have enough income to make a deduction worthwhile. What it means is those at the bottom pay effectively more tax than those at the top, so tax cuts to the wealthy are a little suss, don't you think? Unless the low end gets a real tax cut?

I'm opposed to all deductions . All that really is is a redistribution scheme. It certainly isn't the fault of taxpayers in Texas and Florida that NY State screws their residence .

Repubs sure couldn't have passed their tax cuts bill through the reconciliation process without those cuts to the blue states deductions and as it stands they still needed some carve outs for specific senators to get on board. It still remains deficit spending, which means budgetary cuts yet to come from somewhere. Traditionally tax cuts have never triggered wage growth, but has caused interest rates to rise, and prices tick up and for the ordinary citizen that could very well eat whatever tax cut benefits they thought they were getting.

Now that the holiday season is over, I expect those job numbers and GDP growth number to take a hit as seasonal adjustments are accounted for and people start paying for their Merry Christmas, and Happy New Year. While Trump gets on TV and touts his tax cuts for the middle class, he brags to his fellow rich guys at Mara Lago how he made them a whole lot richer. Talk about redistribution schemes!

Can't wait to see the reactions of the states, coming soon to a city near you.

il Duce Cuomo is already threating law suits over alleged equal protection clause violations .His logic escapes me .

Taking The Dufus and his sycophants to court IS LOGICAL. He hasn't done that well with the rule of law.

Taking The Dufus and his sycophants to court IS LOGICAL. He hasn't done that well with the rule of law.

He hasn't done that well with the rule of anything