Pope Francis:

In this context, some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world. This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system.



Trump: "No, I don't benefit, I don't benefit" from his tax proposal. (9/27/2017)

Politifact: "We rate his statement as false. Trump and his family could save more than $1 billion under House tax bill":


Only one of many lies Trump and the GOP leadership are promoting. Will the Trump supporters EVER learn?

NO! Not even after they get ravaged, fleeced and PUNKED! Lee may have surrendered to Grant at Appomattox, but that never ended the war, just much of the bloodshed.

Our Civil War continues, a long as the tail keeps waging the dog.*

*Thanks Clete for that insight! ;D

Confimed by facts,, what a load of Bovine excrement. The Democrats "Facts" have been proven to be anything BUT, particularly on this. You however are going to still believe in Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny if it helps you make it through the day.

Confimed by facts,, what a load of Bovine excrement. The Democrats "Facts" have been proven to be anything BUT, particularly on this. You however are going to still believe in Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny if it helps you make it through the day.


This indecipherable reply is a proof of the incontrovertible fact that Trump supporters are marked by low education, low information, and low intelligence. Sad, yes, but not much can be done about it.

NO! Not even after they get ravaged, fleeced and PUNKED! Lee may have surrendered to Grant at Appomattox, but that never ended the war, just much of the bloodshed.

Our Civil War continues, a long as the tail keeps waging the dog.*

*Thanks Clete for that insight! ;D

Here is another; one Trump is just one of a long line of Yankee Carpetbaggers.

Your tax system could do with some simplification, we are reaching a stage where no tax will be imposed on anyone with an income less than $40,000 but they will have to pay the medicare levy which is only as it should be

I paid my dues already! The tax code is already simple enough for rich guys to have accounts all over the friggin' world, and still get corporate welfare here. Yeah The Dufus is part of that crowd and it can't get any simpler than that!

This isn't a simplification of the tax code Clete, not by a longshot it's a straight legal robbery of the American people. The Dufus is LYING, and you should know that by now.

. The Dufus is LYING, and you should know that by now.

How do you know when a politician is lying? Tal, see if his mouth is open.

Taxation is theft, we know that, but there a cost for free trade, once countries could raise revenue by tariffs, You guys had a revolution so you couldn't do that any more.

Look, Tal, if you have to have income tax, the House Bill isn't a bad idea, and some of those Senate ideas, like kicking Obamacare in the teeth, should be adopted. Yes, it does give the rich a tax break but it does give others a tax break too.

Are you just trying to wind me up because you are that bored. Check your facts we still have tariffs. You don't want to pay taxes? Cool don't call a cop. Oh that's right NO gun either... bummer! Okay who do you call to fix the lights... Oh that's right you pay taxes and can't keep them on. Seems you guys do your fair share of stealing the tax loot yourselves, or don't manage it very well. It's no wonder you have no money to explore beyond your own nose.

All due respect, but as far as American tax policy goes you have no credibility, or LINKS to back you up, so we just chalk that narrative down to you running your loony right wing mouth, or BOREDOM, okay?

https://www.fool.com/retirement/2017/11/02/what-does-tax-reform-mean-for-the-average-american.aspx

Tal I know you don't like to do the research and I'm not your research assistant, while I'm responding I'm on the phone so not boredom, multi tasking, but do you really want seven tax brackets, do you want more people to pay tax because you are unwilling for the threshold to rise, etc, etc

https://www.fool.com/retirement/2017/11/02/what-does-tax-reform-mean-for-the-average-american.aspx

I have already done MY homework, Clete, but thanks for at least trying. From your article though,


Here, note that the new standard deduction is incorporated into the tax brackets. The $56,516 amount is squarely within the 12% bracket, which is lower than the 15%.
Bear in mind, though, that tax brackets only tell you your marginal tax rate (https://www.fool.com/retirement/2017/03/29/what-is-your-marginal-tax-rate.aspx), not your effective tax rate. The typical American family described above would have a tentative tax of $3,727 under the current tax system, but under the new system, that same family would have a figure of $3,902.


That has been the crux of the argument for decades and fact being that the party line that our corporate rates are the highest in the world is a lie, as no corporation pays the marginal tax rate here. With loopholes the actual taxes are almost nil, so what would that do for already immensely profitable companies? Bingo! Make them more profitable, and we already see that those profits have nothing to do with WAGES, which spur DEMAND and lead to economic growth and jobs. You are an accountant and should know that already, but unfortunately like most right wingers you believe that Supply side economics is the way to go. You have written how in your country you have those that make and take profit while they produce NOTHING. We have that too, it's called Wall Street, you know those guy's that crashed the global economy? Well this is the tax break for them.

Traditionally and factually Wall Street has taken profit and rolled it back into itself, even as it continues to make more schemes to separate people from their hard earned money.

Nice try though! Even if you took your link right from Trumps lying lips, which was the source from which the article was written. Funny how they left a lot of stuff out like the deficit going up, and those middle class tax cuts disappearing after a few years, while corporate, and upper class taxes remain permanently, and the cuts to Medicaid and Medicare.

Guess we learned nothing from the Bush tax cuts.

The sad part is, Tal, there is no such thing as the average family, it is a politicians myth, there are people on a spread of incomes, probably many below the average and many with more than the average, the average is distorted by the millionaires and the billionaires. You don't see them publishing the statistics on how many are in each bracket and what is the spread of their incomes, because then you can calculate just what the impact is.

No, articles are written from a bias and I took the bias in this one to show that it is a close run thing, maybe no one actually benefits, it could be slight of hand but I can tell you that you are better off with fewer brackets to ward off bracket creep.

If corporate's pay little tax what does it matter what the rate is? Lower taxes disincentiveise cheating. But the big tax reduction is dropping the compulsory insurance levy, etc

The sad part is, Tal, there is no such thing as the average family, it is a politicians myth, there are people on a spread of incomes, probably many below the average and many with more than the average, the average is distorted by the millionaires and the billionaires. You don't see them publishing the statistics on how many are in each bracket and what is the spread of their incomes, because then you can calculate just what the impact is.

A very excellent observation.


No, articles are written from a bias and I took the bias in this one to show that it is a close run thing, maybe no one actually benefits, it could be slight of hand but I can tell you that you are better off with fewer brackets to ward off bracket creep.

Explain the rationale of that statement as it makes NO sense.


If corporate's pay little tax what does it matter what the rate is? Lower taxes disincentiveise cheating. But the big tax reduction is dropping the compulsory insurance levy, etc

If you leave the loopholes it matters a lot, because LESS revenues mean all those states with ordinary people get less money to run their communities. Less services, less jobs, less tax baes and that's the bottom line. Does your country pay cops, firemen, teachers and maintain the roads, and schools off LOCAL Taxes? We have 50 states, half of which depend on revenues from the government, and all the not so rich older folks.

Lower taxes have never guaranteed rich guy's won't find new schemes to make MO' money! That's a myth rich guys tell you. I refer you to the global melt down after the Bush tax cuts. Dropping mandatory insurance just leads to higher health costs for everybody.

A high price to pay for an aging population, that saves a small group a few bucks. Actually 30 percent of the population is between 25-44, half of which are women and children, kick in to support women children and older people, and that's a problem for you?

Now if we changed to a cradle to grave heath care system similar to your own, and most of the free developed world, you may be on to something. Here you pay the middle man if you can afford it. You sure can't pay for wellness yourself.

Bottom Line:

1- The Trump/GOP tax plan will INCREASE the deficit by over one TRILLION dollars. That's TRILLION with a "T".

2- The wealthy will get HUGE tax cuts. Individuals, corporations, and donor payback. These last pay the GOP for passing laws in their interest.

3- The lower and middle classes will ultimately see a tax INCREASE.

For details, look at the internet. All the information is shown in great clarity at dozens of websites. They're not hard to find. Anyone who believes the lies from the mouths of Trump, Ryan and that ilk deserves whatever they get.

A very excellent observation.

Yes I nail it now and again


Explain the rationale of that statement as it makes NO sense.

Bracket creep occurs when inflation or a buoyant economy increases earnings in a tax system which doesn't change, the more steps you have, the easier it is to be paying a higher rate of tax without your purchasing power actually increasing[/quote]


If you leave the loopholes it matters a lot, because LESS revenues mean all those states with ordinary people get less money to run their communities. Less services, less jobs, less tax baes and that's the bottom line. Does your country pay cops, firemen, teachers and maintain the roads, and schools off LOCAL Taxes? We have 50 states, half of which depend on revenues from the government, and all the not so rich older folks.

We have an entirely different system to yours, our states ceded rights to income tax long ago, and they receive the GST (a growth tax) collected by the federal government distributed among them, they also benefit from stamp duties imposed on property sales and mining royalties. There are also grants for various purposes.


Lower taxes have never guaranteed rich guy's won't find new schemes to make MO' money! That's a myth rich guys tell you. I refer you to the global melt down after the Bush tax cuts.

I find that statement irrational, tax is not intended to be a disincentive, but high taxes definitely are, what is the point of increasing tax until it is punitive. I remember when there was actually a tax bracket above 90%. We had few millionaires in those days



Dropping mandatory insurance just leads to higher health costs for everybody.

are you saying health costs have been lower because of mandatory health insurance?


A high price to pay for an aging population, that saves a small group a few bucks. Actually 30 percent of the population is between 25-44, half of which are women and children, kick in to support women children and older people, and that's a problem for you?

Now if we changed to a cradle to grave heath care system similar to your own, and most of the free developed world, you may be on to something. Here you pay the middle man if you can afford it. You sure can't pay for wellness yourself.

Well Tal it isn't a problem for me, but our health system has two benefits, no one has to go without essential health care by reason of finances and health costs are contained because the government regulates fees within the system.

Bracket creep occurs when inflation or a buoyant economy increases earnings in a tax system which doesn't change, the more steps you have, the easier it is to be paying a higher rate of tax without your purchasing power actually increasing

Interesting, I may have more on that later, because the likelihood of the economy taking off that fast, or inflation getting that far out of control is nil if the fed does it's job. Federal Reserve that is.

We have an entirely different system to yours, our states ceded rights to income tax long ago, and they receive the GST (a growth tax) collected by the federal government distributed among them, they also benefit from stamp duties imposed on property sales and mining royalties. There are also grants for various purposes.

We have all that too, but a big deficit sort of puts a crimp in the plan.

I find that statement irrational, tax is not intended to be a disincentive, but high taxes definitely are, what is the point of increasing tax until it is punitive. I remember when there was actually a tax bracket above 90%. We had few millionaires in those days
Intentions have little bearing when a guy want's Mo'Money, and figures out ways to get it. Our history is full of those types, so I stand by my statement.

Are you saying health costs have been lower because of mandatory health insurance?

No doubt they continue to climb, always have, always will until we cut out the middle man.

Well Tal it isn't a problem for me, but our health system has two benefits, no one has to go without essential health care by reason of finances and health costs are contained because the government regulates fees within the system.

Now that's what I'm talking about! I get Medicare in a few years if The Dufus and his right wing cronies don't screw that up. They've been trying for decades so they can give their rich donors even MO"Money.

Tal, I think all this can be summed up by a different view of the world, a different ethos. Your economy is predicated by taking for yourself and sharing little, we could say this is the scrooge point of view. Ours is predicated on the view that we all have a right to benefit from the wealth of the nation. From each according to his means to each according to their need is not foreign to our thinking. Therefore we can have a universal health care system supported by the right and the left, and covers everyone, we can have a taxation system modified by the right that actually reduces taxes for everyone, we have uniform laws because states rights do not dominate. This is not to say that the left don't want more of the cake, and the right will deny them but we see that poverty is actually a serious issue and we don't think food stamps is a way to solve it. We once had a Prime Minister who had a goal that no child should live in poverty. Could you imagine Trump embracing such a philosophy, I didn't see Obama making such a statement.

You guys are doing okay over there Clete, but don't throw crap, and claim you have solved all your problems. The Great Melting Pot is still being stirred, and there is still resistance to sharing with SOME people. The loony right wingers here still cannot accept the concept of sharing, and many are mad as hell they have nothing to share, and blame it on others.

That's how they will make America great again, by taking it black from the OTHER people*. That was Trumps promise.

*No that's not a typo!

You guys are doing okay over there Clete, but don't throw crap, and claim you have solved all your problems. The Great Melting Pot is still being stirred, and there is still resistance to sharing with SOME people. The loony right wingers here still cannot accept the concept of sharing, and many are mad as hell they have nothing to share, and blame it on others.

That's how they will make America great again, by taking it black from the OTHER people*. That was Trumps promise.

*No that's not a typo!

Hey Tal, yes we have some problems but find most are solved with goodwill. Someone over there voted for Trump, how the guy with less votes wins is beyond me, but then some of our outcomes are strange too.

Problems we have solved;
Illegal migration through people trafficers, visa overstayers, another problem
Heath care
Taxation
Trade agreements
Education
Welfare
Making the country great again, (great today, perfect tomorrow)
Border protection, the no wall solution

Problems we have not solved;
Indigenous affairs
Drug trafficking
Energy prices
NBN
Loss of manufacturing
House prices and availability
Regional development
The great KIWI exodus
Camels, cane toads and other ferels
railway timetables

that's very black of you, Tal

we have some problems but find most are solved with goodwill.


Copy that.

Well Tal I can see why you think the GOP is pulling a swifty, with rich people getting the most benefit, but then those who pay the most will benefit more. You can't cut tax without impacting debt and deficit, and I know it is hard to see why you would reduce tax with a runaway debt excepting that why should the general population pay for bigger military spending and making insurance companies profitable

Well Tal I can see why you think the GOP is pulling a swifty, with rich people getting the most benefit, but then those who pay the most will benefit more. You can't cut tax without impacting debt and deficit, and I know it is hard to see why you would reduce tax with a runaway debt excepting that why should the general population pay for bigger military spending and making insurance companies profitable


It would be very simple to design a tax plan that cut taxes for the lower and middle classes without cutting taxes for the wealthy. But that's not the intention of the Republicans and never has been. (I leave Trump out of this because, like any legislation, he's completely clueless).

The GOP wants the rich to become richer, and reward its rich donor base, and reward the large corporate stockholders. It's as obvious as the orange nose on Trump's face.

The more nefarious strategy comes later. What happened to the GOP deficit hawks? You know, those guys who scream about increasing the debt? This "plan" will INCREASE the debt by a staggering $1.5 TRILLION dollars!

They claim the economy will pay back this huge debt in new revenue being taxed. But will it?

This plan is right out of the discredited Laffer Curve. Discredited in 1981, 1986, 2001 and more recently and dramatically in the state of Kansas where the state had to backtrack after the failed experiment with lowering taxes to increase revenue. Didn't work - BIGLY didn't. Undermined every program the state had - from education to infrastructure. Will the GOP learn from this glaring screw-up? NOT A CHANCE!

What happens when the debt soon becomes unmanageable thanks to the lying GOP? Why, then the REAL object will come to the fore. In order to manage the debt, the GOP will reduce/eliminate Social Security (remember Bush trying to privatize it?), reduce/eliminate Medicare, and reduce/eliminate Medicaid.

Sound far-fetched? So did Trump becoming president.

Just tell me why you need tax cuts when rich guys are already making money hand over fist, and we have NO infrastructure bill on the table. Wouldn't you rather have growth spurred by demand, while you built roads, and bridges and schools? Wouldn't that be putting America first?

Pretty obvious that the donor class is gearing up for 2018 with a huge SLUSH fund. That can't be good but for a small amount of the citizens.

Just tell me why you need tax cuts when rich guys are already making money hand over fist, and we have NO infrastructure bill on the table. Wouldn't you rather have growth spurred by demand, while you built roads, and bridges and schools? Wouldn't that be putting America first?

Pretty obvious that the donor class is gearing up for 2018 with a huge SLUSH fund. That can't be good but for a small amount of the citizens.

Ah, Tal, one thing at a time, they do the doable and the impossible takes a little more time, with big right-offs in the tax bill, investment will become more attractive, that is the hope, a new hope. Perhaps there will be some new tollways built and toll bridges and private schools, they love building them here, so maybe they will love building them there.

I think they have resigned themselves to the fact that to get investment they have to look to tax profits in the far future rather than next year, it is a successful formula, particularly when your corporates and high income individuals are adept at hiding profits in tax shelters.

What I think is you cannot tell the outcome from a shift in tax policy, when we shifted from income taxation to consumption taxation the economy roared ahead. I know cheats who went out of business because they now had to pay tax, a foolish idea but never the less. You may suffer the same fate. Remember your side of politics benefits too

We have flat taxers here too, and glad it helped you guys roar. Roar all you want, but you make goods and services beyond the means of more than half our population and that destroys demand. You keep forgetting you don't have the mouths to feed that my house does Clete.

We have flat taxers here too, and glad it helped you guys roar. Roar all you want, but you make goods and services beyond the means of more than half our population and that destroys demand. You keep forgetting you don't have the mouths to feed that my house does Clete.

All things are relative, Tal, what we don't have to feed is that great gaping maw of debt. I seem to remember that that half of your population buys goods made elsewhere, as does ours, and I know that is a real issue. We didn't make the decision to make China the manufacturing hub of the world, I expect those decisions were made on Wall Street or somewhere nearby, so excuse me if I don't join your pity party.

Tal, there is an inevitable solution to the way the Western world is going, and it is to have everyone on the welfare teat and pay them sit down money because there will not be enough jobs, when that day comes you will have to send your beloved illegals home and those poor will have to work if they want more. I see it will happen here too. It is not a solution I like but the alternative is anarchy

All things are relative, Tal, what we don't have to feed is that great gaping maw of debt. I seem to remember that that half of your population buys goods made elsewhere, as does ours, and I know that is a real issue. We didn't make the decision to make China the manufacturing hub of the world, I expect those decisions were made on Wall Street or somewhere nearby, so excuse me if I don't join your pity party.

There is no pity party here Clete, just recognizing the challenge before us, and working toward a resolution. It's not like no one saw it coming as our debates have been raging for generations now, and the great Melting Pot will continue to be stirred. I caution you though because while you criticize US for our management, you are on the same trajectory of growing debts, though of course for some reason you deny it. Stop being a snob, and take note. You wrote here of the many problems your nation has solved and good for you, but what you better pay attention to is things have a way of changing, and those old solutions have to be tweaked or scraped and replaced. You'll see, as that's inevitable. Just as inevitable that China is hardly alone with too many mouths to feed for the resources. LOL, they have know it was coming for centuries though, and knew it was INEVITABLE.

I have been trying to tell you for years that no human group is unique, just different, but human behavior is global. History bears that out. In short you are doing things no different than was done before, so climb down from that snobbish pedestal, and embrace that GOODWILL you have so elegantly proffered as the SOLUTION.

Evolution is a process, not one event.

Tal, there is an inevitable solution to the way the Western world is going, and it is to have everyone on the welfare teat and pay them sit down money because there will not be enough jobs, when that day comes you will have to send your beloved illegals home and those poor will have to work if they want more. I see it will happen here too. It is not a solution I like but the alternative is anarchy

GOODWILL is the will for Good Orderly Direction in my book, and the rest of your populous gibberish is but fearmongering that one day you realize that your status of wealth you bestow upon yourself is as ARTIFICIAL as the labels you put on other humans to justify your own lack of GOODWILL toward them.

When HUMANS separate themselves from the HUMAN condition, that sets in motion anarchy, and the chaos you so fear. Just because you cannot walk on water, does that mean those that cannot walk are beneath you? According to your words they are.

By the way the subject of this thread The Trump Tax cuts, are repugnant in that they allow legal stealing by a small group, with NO GOODWILL to the many that will INEVITABLY be adversely affected.

Everybody sees that coming! That's why the treasury department is being investigated for withholding factual data, and Mitch and the repubs are in such an all fired hurry to pass their bill under the special rules of reconciliation. Hell the thing doesn't get implemented until 2019 right after the 2018 election for SOME ordinary citizens, but immediately AND permanently for ALL rich guys. Perfect timing right? Then there is that 40% that get a few bucks for a while, and have to give it back and more later.

The full report will be released later today.

UPDATE

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/11/leaked-congressional-analysis-shows-gop-bill-raises-taxes-on-millions-of-americans/

By the way the subject of this thread The Trump Tax cuts, are repugnant in that they allow legal stealing by a small group, with NO GOODWILL to the many that will INEVITABLY be adversely affected.

Everybody sees that coming! That's why the treasury department is being investigated for withholding factual data, and Mitch and the repubs are in such an all fired hurry to pass their bill under the special rules of reconciliation. Hell the thing doesn't get implemented until 2019 right after the 2018 election for SOME ordinary citizens, but immediately AND permanently for ALL rich guys. Perfect timing right? Then there is that 40% that get a few bucks for a while, and have to give it back and more later.

The full report will be released later today.

UPDATE

Leaked Congressional Analysis Shows GOP Bill Raises Taxes on Millions of Americans – Mother Jones (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/11/leaked-congressional-analysis-shows-gop-bill-raises-taxes-on-millions-of-americans/)

Tal it is all in how you read the data, most people get a tax cut however small and it is pointless looking out to 2027 because there will be a different regime by then, with a different set of objectives. There seems to be an idea predicated in this that a tax cut means a big tax cut, that can only happen if you have big income. Maybe the american nation is being sold a pup, politicians have a way of doing that and you can bet the modelling of this wasn't done yesterday. You seem to want to shoot the messenger. If your politicians have difficulty reforming things it is because of the structure of your system but there seems to be a will there for this to get done. Anyway I don't see you raging against the moral repugnance of your cops shaking down citizens

You cannot solve the human condition by throwing open your doors, Tal, all that ensures is that everyone is dragged down. We spoke about things as a nation we solved, we still stumble in the debt and deficit department but we have a plan, it seems to change as priorities change, but it hasn't been thrown out yet

We are still here too, and also have a plan. So if your point is how superior you are, then forget it. Your government is so very closely structured to ours that you could be a state.

We are still here too, and also have a plan. So if your point is how superior you are, then forget it. Your government is so very closely structured to ours that you could be a state.


Man (and woman) is forever subject to the temptations of greed. That is why God himself proposed the first system of regulations called the Ten Commandments. In the USA, the evil Republican party has consistently attempted to repeal these rules in favor of the rich.

In case the Republicans didn't get it, Christ told the story of Lazarus, and later, "It is harder for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven than to pass through the eye of a needle". The Republicans still haven't gotten it. Their reply is that of Wells Fargo - we worship Mammon.

Now that the evil Tax Cuts have been enacted, Christ and his angels weep. Soon, when the real objective of dismantling Medicaid begins, the poorest of the poor will sicken and die. Then when Social Security is privatized - because the debt has grown so enormously - the Wall Street criminals will feed off the carcasses of the common people as the people try to navigate the labyrinthine Byzantine machinations of the stock market. Long before this, the elderly have died before their time because Medicare was unceremoniously dumped in favor of the insurance companies making obscene profits.

The only bright spot in all this is Trump being impeached, convicted of treason, and placed in a cage hanging in the lobby of Trump Tower for all to gawk at and chant over and over "You're FIRED!"

Science fiction? Maybe. But the Republicans, you can be assured, dearly wish for the scenario to unfold as described. Even to washing their hands of the false god Trump since his purpose will have been served.

The congress has moved closer to the donor class getting their loot, will they even need Trump next year after he signs their bill into law? Rumor has it that Pence can write his name too. Wonder what happens if the ordinary guy doesn't see his loot from all of this? The donor class and the recipients of all those deficit dollars could do the right thing and trickle a nice chunk of change to the Main Street slaves, but will they? Or will they come up with all kinds of tricks, traps,and schemes to double their money like they did with the Bush tax loot they got? 2018 promises high drama, and intrigue, so buckle up, and pay attention. We're just getting started.

48915

Perfect!!!

Well it seems to be done, suddenly certain things won't be the same, the polar bears will have new prey, doctors and hospitals will have less patience and patients, no one will ever have to file their taxes again, no, that isn't right, no one will ever pay tax again, no, that isn't right either. Donald Trump gets a big tax cut if his tax liability can be found, and freedom abounds, you are free.

You are free to drill for oil in Alaska, you are free to bring back your ill gotten gains from offshore, you are free to puzzle how all this affects you and your special circumstances, should I give more? should I get a bigger mortgage? should I leave the house to the kids?

Don't be so dramatic, this isn't our first robbery through taxation. We went through the Bush Tax cuts, wars, and a recession and came out fine. Now we go through Trump.

Don't be so dramatic, this isn't our first robbery through taxation. We went through the Bush Tax cuts, wars, and a recession and came out fine. Now we go through Trump.

Ah, yes the inevitable relaxation, if you are going to be screwed relax and enjoy it

duplicate

In an ideological war Clete, you land some punches, and so do they. Some days you win,some days they do. The war continues.

Tal, it was ever so, but it shouldn't be that way.

This isn't a simplification of the tax code Clete, not by a longshot it's a straight legal robbery of the American people.

Tal how can giving people their money back be a robbery ?

Hey Tom, good to see your face around the place again.

It's really simple Tom, you may be giving rich guys their money back, but the rest of us get crumbs. Hush money to look the other way. The thing about it is that there are no strings attached nor incentives for investments to stimulate the economy, nor any way other than speculation that will pay for those cuts, which makes it deficit spending to benefit, the richest, further widening the gap between corporate profit and wage inequality. It would seem to me if The Dufus would just come clean and say the best way to grow the economy is give rich guys Mo'Money than they already have (As in the trickle down theory which repubs worship), then at least that would be honest, and not this lie about MIDDLE CLASS TAX CUTS!

The second and worst lie was he would get creamed with this bill, and rich guys would hate him. Nothing could be further from the truth, buy what should we expect from a con man. Do you really think those one time bonuses will translate into regular rise in wages? I don't, except in states that raised the minimum wage by law. Do you really think the multinationals will abandon their overseas sweatshops for the shores of America? I don't! As tight as the job market is you would think wages would be rising anyway and while a few percentage points is evident, it's not widespread across the spectrum.

As it stands a deficit driven tax cut for the rich makes all the other things that need doing deficit spending also, such as the infrastructure bill, a lot more difficult, or funding FEMA after a disaster, or heaven forbid more wars that we can't pay for, or a recession(?). I have been telling repubs not to elect a business guy who makes bankruptcies his claim to fame, but you guys refuse to listen so here we go again.

Ah Tal, the US needs a good bankruptcy, it hasn't had one in a while

the only thing Tal has right is the deficit . But that is a spending problem ;not a taxing problem.

the only thing Tal has right is the deficit . But that is a spending problem ;not a taxing problem.

Yes 100% taxes wouldn't cure the debt problem

Repubs only care about deficits during democratic presidencies, and have a history of spending like drunk sailors when they have the power. They weren't worried about deficits when they cut taxes, and have never done anything to cut deficits. Just the opposite is true historically, they ALWAYS add to the deficit even when we have a balanced budget which democrats always leave their republican successors.

Repubs have never met a poor man, woman, or child, they couldn't not deny spending cuts. The disdain for the poor, and downtrodden, and unfortunate goes back to Roosevelt and beyond if I were to go that way. You cannot deny history unless you were trying to repeat it.

It is all an illuminati plot