This is only the latest in a long series.

Yesterday, Trump could no longer place any trust in his National Security Advisor, so he fired him - Michael Flynn. This is Flynn's second dismissal by a sitting president.

Today, Trump said Flynn is a "wonderful man" and blamed his dismissal by being treated unfairly, by the criminal leaking of documents, by the "fake" media, and (unbelievably !!) by the Democrats of Hillary Clinton.

After Trump's comments, Flynn's security clearance was pulled by the Defense Intelligence Agency. There's a little matter of possible collusion with Russia that he needs to clear up.

One wonders what Trump's reasons will be tomorrow for firing Flynn.

The people with the REAL mental Confusion, are those lefties suffering from TARD - Trump Acceptance Reluctance Disorder.

Since they went out of their way to apologize or justify every single action the brown bozo made the last 8 years, nothing they rant about can be taken serious.

The people with the REAL mental Confusion, are those lefties suffering from TARD - Trump Acceptance Reluctance Disorder.

Since they went out of their way to apologize or justify every single action the brown bozo made the last 8 years, nothing they rant about can be taken serious.
You really don't see problems?

You really don't see problems?

You are too decent and your time is too precious to waste it on smoothy - he's beyond redemption. His reference to "brown bozo" unwittingly reveals the dark pit where smoothy dwells and from where he emerges from time to time.

He is best ignored.

This is only the latest in a long series.

Yesterday, Trump could no longer place any trust in his National Security Advisor, so he fired him - Michael Flynn. This is Flynn's second dismissal by a sitting president.

Today, Trump said Flynn is a "wonderful man" and blamed his dismissal by being treated unfairly, by the criminal leaking of documents, by the "fake" media, and (unbelievably !!) by the Democrats of Hillary Clinton.

After Trump's comments, Flynn's security clearance was pulled by the Defense Intelligence Agency. There's a little matter of possible collusion with Russia that he needs to clear up.

One wonders what Trump's reasons will be tomorrow for firing Flynn.

So let me get this straight; is Dump saying he Dumped Flynn unfairly? Or is he saying Pence dumped Flynn unfairly? I just want to be clear on who is being unfair

So let me get this straight; is Dump saying he Dumped Flynn unfairly? Or is he saying Pence dumped Flynn unfairly? I just want to be clear on who is being unfair

Trump fired Flynn because he was no longer trustworthy because Flynn lied to Pence about his (Flynn's) dealings with Russia during Trump's election campaign AND after the election.

The very next day Trump blamed the media for Flynn's firing because they (the "fake" media) treated Flynn "unfairly". In this second explanation, there was no mention of Trump saying Flynn was "untrustworthy" as he did the previous day. Also, Trump now blamed the criminal "leakage" of documents (the intercepted proofs of Flynn's transgressions contacting the Russians), and, as a kind of throwaway line, he added the Democrats were to blame since Hillary lost the election.

Confusing? Trying to pin down Trump's behavior is difficult for two reasons: he is so mentally muddled that whatever he says often changes from day to day AND, he is a congenital pathological liar. This last characteristic can be traced back to long before he decided to run for president.

Confusing? Yes, I remain confused

A little off topic, and hoping this video posts because I've been having issues with posting things lately, but I'm curious how Trumpy supporters will spin this pack of lies.

https://www.facebook.com/cnn/videos/10156091689726509/

He claims loyalty as one of his strengths ,but the 1st hint of scandal he threw Flynn,a great man ,under the bus. Someone please tell me what Flynn did that was illegal or unethical ? The answer is nothing .

What Trump should've done instead was to immediately order an investigation into who in the emperor's administration made the FISA court request to surveille their political opponents during an election campaign . If there was no FISA request then he should order his Justice Dept ,Intelligence agencies to identify and charge the leaker .

This whole thing could have been avoided with Flynn if Trump had kept Pence in the loop about the facts of the matter. He obviously didn't know, or understand the facts, nor told Pence a darn thing, so what else has he dropped the ball on?

Trumps press conference was a red meat feast for his base but a disgrace for the rest of the country.

so what else has he dropped the ball on?

Who knows ? Bubba was an experienced politician and still his White House was a zoo until he hired David Gergen a year into his term .

NY Slimes Jan 12 ,2017

In its final days, the Obama administration has expanded the power of the National Security Agency to share globally intercepted personal communications with the government’s 16 other intelligence agencies before applying privacy protections.The new rules significantly relax longstanding limits on what the N.S.A. may do with the information gathered by its most powerful surveillance operations, which are largely unregulated by American wiretapping laws. These include collecting satellite transmissions, phone calls and emails that cross network switches abroad, and messages between people abroad that cross domestic network switches.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/12/us/politics/nsa-gets-more-latitude-to-share-intercepted-communications.html?_r=0 (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/12/us/politics/nsa-gets-more-latitude-to-share-intercepted-communications.html)

You are too decent and your time is too precious to waste it on smoothy - he's beyond redemption. His reference to "brown bozo" unwittingly reveals the dark pit where smoothy dwells and from where he emerges from time to time.

He is best ignored.
Really now... you left wing TARDS have the gaul to rant like a bunch of lunatics casting aspersions on a man who unlike his predecessor is actually doing stuff to HELP the productive portion of Amercians... and you get your panties in a knot about the very appropriate brown Bozo quote which is far nicer than almost everything you losers have said about Trump. Sorry, its YOU who are beyond redemption and best ignored. But then Athos... YOU aren't even a US Citizen.. and you never had to suffer from the brown bozos constant follies. Or the Hildebeast who thought she was ENTITLED to be president and would stoop to any crime needed to get there... and the other losers who supported her criminal actions...

Well, YOU have Trudeau (bwaaahahaha). And among the multitude of problems Canada has they can't seem to fix... I'm make a comment get your own house in order before you start harping on others.

You really aren't half as intelligent as you fancy yourself since you hug socialism and communism... People that think those are great are people who are below average in their abilities to function in life... and feel entitled to a big part of those who are better than they are.

Face it... and beware of the glare of a northward facing moon.



But it all really boils down to left wing jealousy. You all just can't stand when someone is actually a great success in their own right because none have managed to be. Thats a personal problem...not a Trump problem.

Liberals are such losers... waaa waa waaa... http://bloviatingzeppelin.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Democrat-Party-Seal-Baby-Crying.jpg

He claims loyalty as one of his strengths ,but the 1st hint of scandal he threw Flynn,a great man ,under the bus. Someone please tell me what Flynn did that was illegal or unethical ? The answer is nothing .

What Trump should've done instead was to immediately order an investigation into who in the emperor's administration made the FISA court request to surveille their political opponents during an election campaign . If there was no FISA request then he should order his Justice Dept ,Intelligence agencies to identify and charge the leaker .

The way I understand it, Intelligence services were doing routine surveillance of foreign agents. They were NOT surveilling Flynn. But he was caught in that. Also as I understand it was illegal for him to discuss lifting or easing of the sanctions before Trump took office. But his greatest offense was not telling Pence about it.


casting aspersions on a man who ... is actually doing stuff to HELP the productive portion of Amercians...
You all just can't stand when someone is actually a great success in their own right because none have managed to be.

You mean a great success n his own MIND!

But I'll bite, enlighten us as to some of the things he has done to "help the productive portion of Americans".

The way I understand it, Intelligence services were doing routine surveillance of foreign agents. They were NOT surveilling Flynn. But he was caught in that. Also as I understand it was illegal for him to discuss lifting or easing of the sanctions before Trump took office. But his greatest offense was not telling Pence about it.



You mean a great success n his own MIND!

But I'll bite, enlighten us as to some of the things he has done to "help the productive portion of Americans".

Getting rid of Obama's Imperial edicts for starters... The fact unlike the brown bozo.. Trump knows how to run a business... and the stock market shows that... in liberal speak... "Historical and unprecedented". Not only past 20K for the first time.. but has been hovering 20600 range.

PRODUCTIVE members of this country ACTUALLY pay Federal income tax... they actually have 401k's and IRA's, they actually have personal investments for their own retirement...

They don't leach off the 52% that actually pay nearly 100% of the costs of everything... collect welfare or food stamps.

And for the first time in over 8 years... progress is being made in the right direction for those who DO actually work and pay taxes... meaning not those who get it all back and then some.

But then, some misguided people think everything was so perfect under their false demigod the last 8 years they refuse to acknowledge much of anything. Or are just incapable of doing so.

What exactly did Obama actually do to help the people who do actually pay taxes (and not pretend they do)?

The only people Obama helped were illegals and the welfare class...the average working person saw their household income go DOWN during Obama's reign.

The only people Obama helped were illegals and the welfare class...the average working person saw their household income go DOWN during Obama's reign.

Do you think this is a local phenomenon? Real wages have been eroded all over, the lists of those on welfare increase and are bolstered by migrants and refugees, but who do we have to thank for this? Don't think this is the result of the policies of only one bozo, the brown bozo was only the last in a long list of white bozos, and now we have to endure the yellow peril

Smoothy. Sorry that doesn't answer me. That is just more of your ranting. I want specifics with facts. What edict(s) specifically?

As for the Stock Market, I admit that's a big plus for Trump. But there are a lot of market forces involved in the Stock Market and I don't think Trump can take full claim for it. When Obama took office the Dow was at 7949. When he left it was at 19732. So tell me again how the stock market shows it.

As for the people who actually work and pay taxes, do you mean like Trump? Who is hiding his returns probably, because he hasn't paid taxes. Oh and this person who "knows how to run a business" has had several business failures and bankruptcies.

And where do you get your figures about the alleged leaching. You don't really expect us to take your figures as fact when your veracity hasn't been that great in the past.

The way I understand it, Intelligence services were doing routine surveillance of foreign agents. They were NOT surveilling Flynn. But he was caught in that. Also as I understand it was illegal for him to discuss lifting or easing of the sanctions before Trump took office. But his greatest offense was not telling Pence about it.

There are specific protocols when an American conversation becomes part of a "routine surveillance of foreign agents" . Specifically they have to take all measures necessary to mute out the American's part of the conversation unless there is a FISA court order to listen in to that part of the conversation.
It is yet to be determined if that court order was granted .


The EO the Slimes article speaks of was given in the last days of the emperor's reign . It fundamentally changed the number of agencies that NSA intercepts are disseminated to .He changed a law that had been in effect since Reagan's years . That makes it that much harder to find out who illegally leaked the information to the press . It is easy to speculate that the reason for this was to assist the deep government in undermining the new administration .

Trump was made aware of the details of the conversation that Flynn had with the Russian ambassador in January ,long before Flynn's conversation with VP Pence. If Pence's ego was bruised then frankly that is too bad . Flynn could very well be the victim of infighting inside the administration . But ;Trump made the call to dump Flynn. As Truman famously said ;the buck stops at the President's desk. It was a weak move ;and all it did was put blood in water for the circling Democrat sharks .

Smoothy. Sorry that doesn't answer me. That is just more of your ranting. I want specifics with facts. What edict(s) specifically?

As for the Stock Market, I admit that's a big plus for Trump. But there are a lot of market forces involved in the Stock Market and I don't think Trump can take full claim for it. When Obama took office the Dow was at 7949. When he left it was at 19732. So tell me again how the stock market shows it.

As for the people who actually work and pay taxes, do you mean like Trump? Who is hiding his returns probably, because he hasn't paid taxes. Oh and this person who "knows how to run a business" has had several business failures and bankruptcies.

And where do you get your figures about the alleged leaching. You don't really expect us to take your figures as fact when your veracity hasn't been that great in the past.


Facts are facts.. they've been posted on THIS site dozens of times in the past in numerous threads... and quite honestly, I'm no twasting my time looking for them because some people think the brown one is some demigod who made everything perfect and fantastic and refuse to face reality, or the fact the labor participation rates, and the average WORKING persons household income have been in a decline the last 8 years. I find it absolutely comical how gullible some people are to everything they see on TV, read in the paper or hear on the radio, even when those same sources have been proven over and over again to distort facts to outright lie about everything. And how these same people who not a single one is independently wealthy from their own success running numerous businesses and yet feel qualified to disparage someone who has since before he even got elected... Oh yeah.. and supported a world class loser even after she was caught in the middle of rigging primary she didn't even legitimately win... and even went so far as justifying EVERY SINGE scandal and crime she was caught in, year after year. And act like deranged children when they lost like tossing a tantrum is going to change anything... and also.. when such a high percentage of the tantrum throwers managed somehow to graduate high school wihtout the basic knowledge of how the electoral system actually works, and has since 1804. Those are the people we are supposed to believe? Really now.

Anyone here made several millions clear cash in their own business yet (not personal investments or assets over 40+ years? How about Billions? Then what makes them experts in anything to claim they know more than someone who actually has? Hell, how many here even have a net worth over a Million? I bet most can't even say that as low as that bar is.

Smoothy, I'm sick and tired of your racist rhetoric. And I'm not going to put up with it anymore. I don't believe Obama was a demigod or that his administration was perfect. I am perfectly willing to face reality if there are facts that show things. If you can't produce those facts then I can't accept that reality.

Hell, how many here even have a net worth over a Million? I bet most can't even say that as low as that bar is.Hello smoothy:

My worth is NYOB, but suffice to say, if I started with a $ million loan from my father like Trump did, I'd be worth a 100 times what he is today. You know I'm in business, right? Trump even had a head start.. I handicapped myself with a criminal record.

excon

Hi smoothy, I haven't replied more to your message because the editor doesn't recognise the space bar, but there is no use in making any of this personal. I don't get your comment about a northward facing moon, all moons where I come from are northward facing and we all come out and bay at them once a month, Ahroow!

Hello smoothy:

My worth is NYOB, but suffice to say, if I started with a $ million loan from my father like Trump did, I'd be worth a 100 times what he is today. You know I'm in business, right? Trump even had a head start.. I handicapped myself with a criminal record.

excon

I didn't ask you for your net worth... read what I said. But someone who is barely able to live paycheck to paycheck... and hasn't made themselves a BUNCH of money in their adult lives... really is in no position to cast aspirations on others, particularly others who have. If you have... good for you... then you aren't one of them.

Nothing like coulda woulda shoulda....fact is you didn't and why I picked a number thats not that hard to reach...than many people have.

As far as your record..as far as I know it was a one time thing and you did your time.....I have issues with those who keep getting busted over and over and over.

Cast aspersions or aspirations? Big difference....

I didn't ask you for your net worth... read what I said. But someone who is barely able to live paycheck to paycheck... and hasn't made themselves a BUNCH of money in their adult lives... really is in no position to cast aspirations on others, particularly others who have. If you have... good for you... then you aren't one of them.

What about an ordinary everyday blue collar worker like myself? Is it okay to blast a lying bloviated ego maniac like your hero Trump? No need to respond since I will anyway!

Hi smoothy, I haven't replied more to your message because the editor doesn't recognise the space bar, but there is no use in making any of this personal. I don't get your comment about a northward facing moon, all moons where I come from are northward facing and we all come out and bay at them once a month, Ahroow!

Well if your going to mention about making it personal... you're late to the game... someone else already did that... and it wasn't me.


BTW... northward facing moon.. wasn't directed at you... don't think it was an American thing... but giving the moon is dropping trou, and bending over... similar to the one finger salute, or "shooting the Bird" in meaning. Northward facing implied the direction it was given.

What about an ordinary everyday blue collar worker like myself? Is it okay to blast a lying bloviated ego maniac like your hero Trump? No need to respond since I will anyway!

I know a lot of "blue Collar workers" with net worths well into the 7 figures range. But then you have a choice... live abouve your means now... or live below your means for years and invest it... You think I'm self employed or some corporate executive... man you really don't know me then. SO who is really the out of touch ones here... better grab a mirror because I haven't ever been a paper pushing manager...

But then....like I've said..Trump won..get over it.

If you was a Saunders person..Trump didn't steal your primary....Hillary and her minions did that..... Saunders ( not my guy however) might have won...that's the Fault of the DNC.

If you were a Hillary person..then your standards are REALLY low and have no moral high ground to harp about anything Trump might do. Lots of Saunders people Voted Trump because they couldn't stomach Hillary either.

But then....like I've said..Trump won..get over it.

Why can't I cry, b1tch and moan like you did for the last 8 years? Matter of fact you're still crying b1tching and moaning about last years stuff.

Why can't I cry, b1tch and moan like you did for the last 8 years? Matter of fact you're still crying b1tching and moaning about last years stuff.

Don't you have anything better to do, how about some constructive criticism.

You and Smoothy should stop your hate filled rants and present FACTS! How's that?

You and Smoothy should stop your hate filled rants and present FACTS! How's that?

A rhetorical answer to a rhetorical question

Back to the theme, it would seem that Dump would be very confused about the McCain/Republican agenda. What part of being in power do they not understand? Where I come from we would call McCain's action Shytting in your own nest

Where I come from we call it truth to power, and it's a bedrock of the republic. You know that free speech thing?!

Where I come from we call it truth to power, and it's a bedrock of the republic. You know that free speech thing?!

I wasn't commenting on free speech, just stupidity, or in McCain's case dementia

I don't see McCains comments as stupid or demented. He often has broken from his party line on many issues.

You and Smoothy should stop your hate filled rants and present FACTS! How's that?How about the lefties present credible facts and stop the incessant ranting.

Look at the topic of this thread... ZERO proof what so ever... And could even legally be considered libelous if a lawsuit was ever brought by the accused party.

How about the lefties present credible facts and stop the incessant ranting.



Did you watch the press conference where he claimed he had the biggest electoral margin? He was clearly stunned and confused when his statement was debunked. So much for your "ZERO proof".

Did you watch the press conference where he claimed he had the biggest electoral margin? He was clearly stunned and confused when his statement was debunked. So much for your "ZERO proof".

You get that from CNN? And his electoral margin was significant... it wasn't even close.

Directly from Reuters... a very left leaning source..

The Republican businessman, whose presidential campaign was his first bid for public office, garnered 304 electoral votes, compared with 227 won by his Democratic challenger, Hillary Clinton, according to the vote tally read by Vice President Joe Biden.

U.S. Congress certifies Trump's Electoral College victory | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-congress-idUSKBN14Q25R)

That's NO small margin in anyone's book... care to disprove that and claim it was a close call? So Debunked? Far from it.

No I got that from watching the live press conference. And you are missing the point. Trump made the statement that he had the largest margin since Reagan. A reporter confronted him with the fact that there were greater margins. This got him nonplussed and confused. It was very clear to anyone watching. I'm not arguing about how many electoral votes he got or how significant it was. I'm talking only about how he reacted when he was caught in an untruth.

No I got that from watching the live press conference. And you are missing the point. Trump made the statement that he had the largest margin since Reagan. A reporter confronted him with the fact that there were greater margins. This got him nonplussed and confused. It was very clear to anyone watching. I'm not arguing about how many electoral votes he got or how significant it was. I'm talking only about how he reacted when he was caught in an untruth.

Look, Dump believes his own B/S, he lives on planet Trump, and only daines to interact with us morals for his amusement. He is like all politicians, he starts with the script, and when caught out, he has nowhere to go. Everything he has said so far is Hyperbole, exaggeration of what he hopes to achieve. Where would it have got him if he said he would finish the border fence? Where would it have got him if all he said was he would enforce immigration laws? Where would it have got him if he just said we will reduce taxes? No, he had to make his policies bigger, better that what anyone had attempted because he is Trump.

Once in office the reality sets in and like all others he will do the possible and rant about the unfairness of someone, something, that prevents him from doing the rest, much of it will be money, Obama left the cupboard bare

Do you guys and gals like Cheese with your whine? Give it a break.

Do you guys and gals like Cheese with your whine? Give it a break.

I do enjoy cheese and wine with my debate, a nice red

Do you guys and gals like Cheese with your whine? Give it a break.Hello c:

Gotta LOVE that 1st Amendment.. Dissent WORKS. Look.. The libs have NO power whatsoever, but we're changing things BIGLY. I dunno if you noticed, but we STOPPED the travel ban COLD.. And, I don't think they're gonna be repealing Obamacare any time soon.

Oh, I know... We're ALL paid to protest and they bus us from town to town... Bwa, ha, ha ha.. Snicker, snicker...

excon

Time will tell. Snicker, snicker...

Time will tell. Snicker, snicker...

The problem here is by the time you Trump sycophants wake up to the way he's conned you, it may be too late for the country.

I refuse to drink the koolaid when faced with the undeniable facts, the lies, the obvious mental issues of Trumpy. Do you want more koolaid with your alternative facts?

How about that Lefties? Do you have any daughters? Snicker, Snicker.....
CNN anchor Cuomo says little girls should be forced to see nude males in locker rooms (http://wec.news-selfreliancecentral.com/t/22805882/1579103450/6373873/0/)Will CNN anchor Chris Cuomo still have a job next week?
The notoriously liberal and angry journalist crossed the line, with a perverted Twitter attack on a father.

Read why this notorious liberal must be fired,

Really? That's the best you can do? That headline is just the time of fake news that Trump complains about. Only its more on the conservative side.

Cuomo said nothing of the kind. That father doesn't understand what transgender is about if he thinks that boys who identify as girls are going to go parading through locker rooms with a penis hanging out. Or if he thinks that that boys are going to pretend to be transgender so they can get a look at girls in a lockeroom. So I agree with Cuomo that the father needs to be more tolerant and understanding.

lol ;all this gender and race identity ambiguity should play real havoc on laws protecting selective groups. There is no limiting principle for what will be classified as a race ,a sexual orientation or gender identity in the future if just identifying oneself as a protected class makes someone part of the protected class.

If laws instead of protecting equality before the law ,grant special privileges ;then it is logical that someone will exploit those laws if the only qualifying factor is that someone identifies as a member of a protected class.

My simple solution to the bathroom issue would be to change the name on the door from Men's and Women's rooms to 'Penis' and 'Vagina' . Then all you have to do is go to the one that you biologically belong in . It takes no more understanding than that .

My simple solution to the bathroom issue would be to change the name on the door from Men's and Women's rooms to 'Penis' and 'Vagina' . Then all you have to do is go to the one that you biologically belong in . It takes no more understanding than that .
You're okay with someone in full makeup, with beautiful blond tresses, and wearing a sexy dress hiking up her skirt to use a urinal near you? And other males in this public bathroom will ignore her? And if she goes into a stall, how will you know if she has the required penis and is allowed in this bathroom?

You're okay with someone in full makeup, with beautiful blond tresses, and wearing a sexy dress hiking up her skirt to use a urinal near you? And other males in this public bathroom will ignore her? And if she goes into a stall, how will you know if she has the required penis and is allowed in this bathroom?



No I'm not ok with it and Cuomo is wrong .I don't need to be more tolerant and understanding. I'm looking for some rules that makes sense . Short of making all restrooms single stall like a port-a-potty then that's the best I can come up with .

btw I hope the Dems continue to make such issues the central plank of their platform . and another thing . Despite what he thinks he identifies as ;Bruce Jenner will still need to go to the doc to get his prostate exam.

Bruce Jenner will still need to go to the doc to get his prostate exam.
What does that have to do with the price of tea in China????

Maybe he'll have it surgically removed along with the external male anatomy.

So much BS, it has been fine before the Liberals decided to make everyone feel so comfy. What the heck is wrong with the way it has been for centuries? One thing leads to another and after that, someone comes up with "an another". Tomder55 I agree. One of these days, someone will decide it is okay for everyone to walk around naked, oh, that is just "An Another" that will need to be worked on. Wow, nothing like going back centuries to satisfy the weird.

Tom your porta-potty idea is GREAT. Some smart guy can design unisex bathrooms everyone can use with privacy, and safety for schools and public places, once we stop yammering about those good old days when men were men and women were women and there was no in between. Evolution is messy, and for some scary.

I realized long ago that the wingers aren't going no where so the noise will never stop. That doesn't mean the rest of us can't progress though, and make some adjustments that includes and not excludes, and embraces and not punishes ordinary people for their own uniqueness.

As for the provocative prez "SEE YOU IN COURT!!"!

A Texas transformer girl on steroids, in a 'transition to being a 'male', has a 55-0 record in girls wrestling and is advancing towards the state championship. Now she has said she'd prefer to wrestle against boys . However state rule prohibits girls from wrestling in the boys division and vice versa. Much better that she be able to compete juiced up on steroids I guess.
http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/hurst-euless-bedford_news/article134761654.html

The steroids were prescribed by a doctor, reviewed by the state, and the wrestler was approved to compete, though I shake my head at that decision. Doesn't seem that fair to me but what do I know?

The important thing to remember is gender's just an imaginary construct....right ?

I'm not transgender, but I have a few friends that are. I've always been about equal rights for everyone, and everyone means everyone! I never did understand how someone can feel like they're in the wrong body, until one transgender friend said this to me. Now I'm going to change it to man instead of woman, because the majority of people on this thread are men, but here's what I would like you to consider.

Let's say that tomorrow you wake up and you're suddenly the opposite gender. You went to bed a man, and woke up a woman. Now, all "I'd sit at home all day playing with my breasts and experiencing multiple orgasms" jokes aside, think about how you'd feel. Would you be okay with being female for the rest of your life, or would you perhaps hate it? I know as a female that loves being female, I would not want to suddenly be male and have to live as a male the remainder of my life.

That's what transgender is. You're born a certain sex, but everything you love, everything you do, everything you feel, is the opposite of the sex you were born into. Imagine having to live out your life being something you're not just because you're born with the parts.

Let's go even further. You're male, tomorrow you wake up female, but all of your records state that you're male. You now look like a female in every way, you are female in every way, but you still have to use the mens bathroom because it says on your birth certificate that you're male. Is that okay?

Trans people don't want to use the bathroom of the gender they're transitioning to because they're perverts and want to look at your pee pee. They just want to pee and poo, like every other person in the world. They don't want to go into a woman's bathroom dressed as and looking like a man, because that would be uncomfortable not only for them, but the women in the bathroom. They don't want to go into the mens bathroom dressed like and looking like a woman, because that would be uncomfortable for them and the men in the bathroom. They don't want to constantly have to explain "yes, I look like a woman but I was born a man so I'm sorry, but I have to use the bathroom with you guys because too many close minded people think that if I use the women's bathroom, I'll molest the women because I still have a penis".

Trust me, no one wants to see your pee pee, or touch your pee pee, or molest you with their pee pee. They just want to pee pee!

Well said Alty!


The important thing to remember is gender's just an imaginary construct....right ?

There is nothing imaginary about feelings... yours or someone else's. It doesn't just apply to transgender, but with any "category" of human. Gay, black, irish, doesn't matter, no one likes to be discriminated against, ostracized, or dictated to, because of their uniqueness or differences.

I think it's the differences that are imaginary.

Tal that will play havock on all those civil rights and gender rights laws that protect special classes of people if they apply to anyone based on constructs of feelings instead of their physical reality .

We already saw an example of that played out in colleges hiring a blond haired blue eyed Elizabeth Warren because she identified as a Native American. Warren listed herself as 'white ' while teaching at the university of Texas. In the late 80s she began listing herself as a Native American. Shortly after that she landed a high paying job teaching in an Ivy League school .

Hey ,she may in fact be 1/32 Cherokee . DNA tests show I have some African DNA in me . Should I then identify as an African when there is a chance to benefit from it ?

You're a capitalist! Benefit is what you do isn't it? Or is that profit? I'll just point out that there would be no need for special protection if there were no need for it from other humans. You know equal protection under the law, and equal opportunity like it says in our Constitution? Even the founders didn't follow it as written, and we still don't today.

Maybe that's the problem!

Are you admitting that laws protecting special groups are unnecessary and unconstitutional ?

As long as there are those that discriminate there must be a balancing reaction. Like affirmative action to address lack of equal opportunity. Such things are very NECESSARY, even if they are as unconstitutional as the situation they seek to address. If discrimination isn't addressed, then what would be a better corrective action? Jail for those that knowingly discriminate? Will that include law makers that make discriminatory laws?

The answer is that only laws barring the state from discriminating are constitutional. For the private sector ,if competitive market forces are allowed to work, the problem of discrimination will be solved by the entry of new firms who will cater to mass markets, wholly without legal compulsion. Individuals have 1st amendment rights to speech ,association ,religion,and thought .

Are you admitting that laws protecting special groups are unnecessary and unconstitutional ?
What has happened that special groups need laws in the first place?

What has happened that special groups need laws in the first place?



Plessy v Ferguson codified state discrimination . Brown v Board of Education reversed it . It has to do with state powers . Once Brown reversed Plessy then the clear language of the 14th amendment applied .The laws could not be discriminatory . It says nothing about special protections for protected groups against private discrimination.

Plessy v Ferguson codified state discrimination . Brown v Board of Education reversed it . It has to do with state powers . Once Brown reversed Plessy then the clear language of the 14th amendment applied .The laws could not be discriminatory . It says nothing about special protections for protected groups against private discrimination.
That doesn't answer my question. WHY are special protections needed? WHY affirmative action? Aren't we a Christian nation helping "the least of these"?

That's what individuals should do. There is no virtue if the individual is compelled to help . The reason there are the laws is because of the false idea that the government can control people's thoughts. If they understood the market place they would know that if a florists did not want to provide services for a gay 'marriage' then another one would be willing to do so.

If they understood the market place they would know that if a florists did not want to provide services for a gay 'marriage' then another one would be willing to do so.
Why did you put the word marriage in single quote marks?

Maybe the gay couple thought, since the bakery was open for business, the owner(s) wanted customers who would pay for products.

Why did you put the word marriage in single quote marks?


Since you know my position on the issue the answer should be obvious



Maybe the gay couple thought, since the bakery was open for business, the owner(s) wanted customers who would pay for products.



Maybe they did . But when the baker made it clear that they did not want the patronage then it was time to move on and find one willing to do business with them.

Maybe they did . But when the baker made it clear that they did not want the patronage then it was time to move on and find one willing to do business with them.
So if you go to a well-known bakery on Main Street, the clerk asks if you are a straight male, you say yes, and then the clerk says,"Sorry. We don't bake for and sell to straight men," what would you think and do? (That's probably a rhetorical question. I know YOU would politely thank them and with a jauntiness in your step return to your car and go to another bakery that likes straight-men dollars.)

of course . I certainly wouldn't compel them or use the force of law against them . I could only hazard a guess as to what the cake would contain. I always want the places I patron to want to serve me. If you are a Muslim baker why should you be compelled to cater to a bar mitzvah ?

of course . I certainly wouldn't compel them or use the force of law against them . I could only hazard a guess as to what the cake would contain. I always want the places I patron to want to serve me. If you are a Muslim baker why should you be compelled to cater to a bar mitzvah ?
But we're not talking about specialty bakeries here. We're talking about run-of-the-mill main-street bakeries that are in business to sell baked goods to customers who walk in to the shop. No bakery clerk has EVER asked me if I'm a lesbian before ringing up my purchase.

And bakeries don't usual cater at dinners/celebrations/events. They will bake and possibly deliver the ordered goodies. Or one of the organizers will pick up the baked goods.

What you are saying is that a baker (originally I used a florist but the point is the same ) no longer has the right to exercise religious liberty .

So it's okay to discriminate in public/private sector because of YOUR religious beliefs? That's not even close to hate the sin but love the sinner.

What you are saying is that a baker (originally I used a florist but the point is the same ) no longer has the right to exercise religious liberty .
Why would he/she? What's the point? If the baker is Christian, he/she definitely misunderstands Jesus' second greatest commandment.

Whether you think they are good Christians or not is irrelevent . Government is based on coercion ,not on the free will that God gave us. Please show me the quote where Jesus implored the government to use force to transfer resources from one group to another. Don't waste your time ;you can't . So if anything I am amused when someone tells me that government should force Christians to act in what THEY define a Christian way .

The below quote is relevant whether you are forcing someone to give charity ,or forcing them to act against their beliefs .

“There is no virtue in compulsory government charity, and there is no virtue in advocating it. A politician who portrays himself as "caring" and "sensitive" because he wants to expand the government's charitable programs is merely saying that he's willing to try to do good with other people's money. Well, who isn't? And a voter who takes pride in supporting such programs is telling us that he'll do good with his own money -- if a gun is held to his head.” [PJ O'Rourke]

I am amused when someone tells me that government should force Christians to act in what THEY define a Christian way .
*cough* Where have I said anything about government coercion? I said, if the business-desiring baker is truly Christian, he will sell his goods to any customer who walks in -- doctor, lawyer, Indian chief, lesbian, alcoholic, gay guy, grandmother, burglar, liar, cheater, priest, AMHD member and so on (without being questioned at the door).

(A bakery business is not a charity.)

Just like a Muslim cannot contradict the laws of the land to practice certain tenants of sharia law, the Christian is also obliged to follow the law against discrimination. I didn't know that Christians were exempt from the laws of the land, even if they are in some cases accommodated by it. What I find interesting is the Christians who seek to make other Americans subjects to their religious morality by attempting to making laws, and policies that go into other peoples bedrooms, and private lives.

I'm surprised that those that discriminate aren't sued for all they are worth.

A bit off topic I know, but that's my two cents.

I'm surprised that those that discriminate aren't sued for all they are worth.



There already have been casualties to the government tyranny .

There already have been casualties to the government tyranny .
What tyranny? Businesses should be allowed to pick and choose whom they sell their publicly-offered goods to? Redheads, fat people, people with Asperger's, people over 50, teens with acne, women wearing slacks....

Darn not being able to rep on this forum.

Big thumbs up Tal and WG.

There already have been casualties to the government tyranny .

I heard you used to be the home of the free and the brave, you have 300 million firearms and yet you allow government tyranny, so not many free and not many brave left? Sort of like those native americans who used to inhabit your land, they were free and brave too, look where that got them

Clete ;if you were a baker or florist ,or caterer ,or photographer ,or musician , would you risk losing your business and serving jail time upholding your Christian beliefs by not catering to a homosexual 'marriage' . Where are their 1st amendment protections ?

Clete ;if you were a baker or florist ,or caterer ,or photographer ,or musician , would you risk losing your business and serving jail time upholding your Christian beliefs by not catering to a homosexual 'marriage' . Where are their 1st amendment protections ?

Let me put it this way, Tom, I should not be forced to participate in a practice I consider morally rephrensible and any government that says different is a tyrant

and that is what I was saying

So it's okay to deny others their rights because of YOUR religion? That's akin to legalizing discrimination in my book! I think such actions though should be addressed by the aggreived party should either sue, boycot, or publicly protest those entities, and hit them in their pockets as a more effective strategy.