Brexit? Should Great Britain leave the European Union?

Britons don't like bureaucracy and the EU is bureaucracy on steroids. It could be thought that the EU is Germany's revenge for losing the war. The Britons don't like the straight jacket but have reaped economic rewards. Britain has not embraced currency union, or the very liberal immigration of the EU, so there is good reason to put up the barriers. Parts of the UK have become muslim enclaves. Now faced the prospect of hordes from the south, Britain must decide

No, I don't believe it should happen. But we will know tomorrow. Muslim enclaves are every where, clete, not only the UK.

No, I don't believe it should happen. But we will know tomorrow. Muslim enclaves are every where, clete, not only the UK.

Indeed we even have them here, though not to the same extent as Britain. I think the British people should follow their own destiny,
Otherwise they might be like the original people of Britain and cease to exist

Personally I think Britain would be smart to leave, they were Very smart to keep their own currency.

ITALY for example was far better off before it, prices doubled overnight after adoption, wages didn't.

Except for the lazy segment of the population (who we have a name for here, "popolino, or popolini for plural), most Italians I know wish the EU never existed. What is happening now is Germany, Belgium and to a lesser degree France is imposing their will on the rest, and they aren't very happy about it.

Yes, we have a name for the lazy segement of the population too, but I'm not allowed to use it. Yes, it is clear the Belgians won the peace and the Germans have the muscle. I'm completely lost as to how Britain could have got into bed with traditional enemies but then the poms always were a funny lot, so a couple of generations on, I can see they would want to change

Britain benefits from being part of a larger trading/social block, and why they would think that sovereignty is more important is beyond me, considering especially the times and shared enemies in the form of criminal terrorists, and the need to cooperate, rather than separate.

Economically can Britain even compete with Russia and China without the EU, or Asia for that matter?

Do you really have any idea how big the Russian economy is? It is not a superpower economically. Our GDP is almost bigger than theirs. Britain has the fifth largest GDP in the world so is more than a match for many others. No one competes with China.

Obviously Britain would be better off for a number of reasons, it would no longer be stiffled by EU policy

I respectfully submit it's the British reluctance to more influence the EU monetary policy that weakens them both. Their participation thus far can only be characterized as half a$$ at best, and the EU is more dependent on Russia and China than they are Britain, despite the problems with both their economies.

Ranks don't matter when they are all just puddling along at less than half speed. That's what's painfully obvious, as the cost of doing business as an independent will be a lot more expensive without the group rate. That too is OBVIOUS!

Indeed we even have them here, though not to the same extent as Britain. I think the British people should follow their own destiny,
Otherwise they might be like the original people of Britain and cease to exist

And how did the original people of Britain cease to exist ? I don't understand what you are saying here. Can you explain.

Long ago before various invasions from europe and beyond, the inhabitants of Britain were a different lot, more like the people of Ireland but in England and in other places the inhabitants were oppressed and hunted down. Those invaders included romans, angles, saxons, jutes, danes, normans, vikings where is someone who can point to being pure indigenous english

A day that has shaken world stock markets and reset the world economic scene. Britain will leave the EU, and the possibility is that the EU will not survive. A victory for conservative forces and a smack up the head with a wet fish for socialism. Germany can now decide what it will do with all its new migrants

They were going to do that anyway regardless, and in truth that (Immigration fears) and the sluggish European economy is what fuels this secession and over the next two years the trade deals will be renegotiated as well as WHO implements the new rules and deals for Britain since the present British PM is out in the next few months and Trumps birther brother, the mayor of London is the one who likely succeeds him.

This drama is just getting started and for sure the angry nuts will crawl out of the woodwork and reek even more economic chaos than before.

This is the rise of nationalism again, we have seen it in the UK, we have seen it in the US, and we will see much more of it. Free trade is an illusion, there are costs of multinationalism and we have seen it in the dismantling of industries. The relentless drive for efficiencies have left out the human component. What price a Texit, Tal?

A lot of this is a direct result of the leftists welcoming these illegals who have no concept of a democracy and don't have western values buying votes with free stuff the working taxpayer's are forced to pay for to skew future elections, I've been seeing this same thing happen in Italy, where the only people welcoming them are the socialists and the communists, and they are doing it for that reason the same way Democrats in the USA are turning a blind eye, or worse defending and helping the illegals here.

Everyone else is fed up and disgusted, and this is the first battle in the war to take back control of our own countries from those who will destroy the fabric of our communities, and those who refuse to assimilate to their host country. And worse, continue their jihad in the name of their religion in the countries they moved to.

Our ancestors assimilated, it's in our right to expect the same from those who come here.

Rant over... just wanted to point out there are a LOT of people disgusted about the lack of action by both parties to kick out everyone who broke our laws and came here illegally.

This is the rise of nationalism again, Hello clete:

It's true.. But, nationalism comes in 3 flavors. Which one are you?

a) A nationalist who LOVES his country, wants the best for it, and thinks everybody should want the best for their country too,

b) A nationalist who LOVES his country, wants the best for it, but at another country's expense,

c) A nationalist who LOVES his country and wants the best for it because he's a superior race..


excon

the mayor of London is the one who likely succeeds him..

No, not the new Mayor. It will probably be Boris Johnson.

No, not the new Mayor. It will probably be Boris Johnson.

In fact it was a shame you mentioned Sadiq Khan and Trump in the same breath ! Sadiq Khan is a very well educated, sophisticated muslim and not comparable with Trump at all.

We all have to stay tuned to this multifaceted referendum because now, as I hear, Scotland wants to stay in the EU. It is their pregrogative of course, and I am sure they will do anything they can to make this interesting. Any takers... maybe para can give us his opinion of the gaelic opinion.

This guy... you know Trumps brother!

Boris Johnson: U.K.'s next prime minister? (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/06/24/boris-johnson-uks-next-prime-minister/86327962/)

We all have to stay tuned to this multifaceted referendum because now, as I hear, Scotland wants to stay in the EU. It is their pregrogative of course, and I am sure they will do anything they can to make this interesting. Any takers... maybe para can give us his opinion of the gaelic opinion.

From the time I spent in Scotland I know it was a bitter disppointment for the scots to have lost the earlier referendum on soveriegnty but I think resurrgence now is pure opportunism. So the vote didn't go your way? What it demonstrates is that a very big majority of the other residents of GB were in favour of exit and that the minorities weren't. Maybe the Scots could take a leaf out of Trump's book and rebuild Hadrian's Wall. I haven't yet heard from relatives in Ireland as to what they think but the IRA must be giving thanks that Northern Ireland will want to join Eire at last and it shows you didn't need a gun after all. Any depressed and repressed area would want to stay in the EU

Hello clete:

It's true.. But, nationalism comes in 3 flavors. Which one are you?

a) A nationalist who LOVES his country, wants the best for it, and thinks everybody should want the best for their country too,

b) A nationalist who LOVES his country, wants the best for it, but at another country's expense,

c) A nationalist who LOVES his country and wants the best for it because he's a superior race..


excon

Surely you know me well enough Ex to know the answer is (a)

I was in favour of brexit even though there is an economic cost, Britain is entitled to chart their own course, I don't think they ever signed up to be part of a United States of Europe but that is the path the EU was on

The truth of the matter Clete is that the older generations blame immigrants on their misfortunes instead of the austerity policies of conservative lawmakers as a reaction to the global meltdown, and that applies specifically to Britain AND the EU, and the US, for that matter and most other places for sure.

Seems bigots will buy any excuse other than blame their elected leaders. You're right though the UK can plot there own course without the benefit of no tariffs on their exports.

"The immigrants are coming! The immigrants are coming" is the call of the bigots. Good thing they have a moat already, so they don't have to build a wall.

The truth of the matter Clete is that the older generations blame immigrants on their misfortunes instead of the austerity policies of conservative lawmakers as a reaction to the global meltdown, and that applies specifically to Britain AND the EU, and the US, for that matter and most other places for sure.

Seems bigots will buy any excuse other than blame their elected leaders. You're right though the UK can plot there own course without the benefit of no tariffs on their exports.

"The immigrants are coming! The immigrants are coming" is the call of the bigots. Good thing they have a moat already, so they don't have to build a wall.

I think the reality is,Tal, the immigrants had already come, Britain is awash with them with the prospect of more, success has its own rewards as I'm sure you know. The Britions did what everyone else was thinking, we want our country back! Have you noticed where the Britons want to spend the money they save, on Hospitals. Don't think that people here don't have the same thoughts
. I have come to the conclusion one muslim is a muslim too many. It is time to build that wall if you don't already have one but we are building it in the wrong place, it should be built along the shores of the mediterranian

I think the reality is,Tal, the immigrants had already come,


It's not a voluntary human migration at all, but a product of the Syrian WAR! Like most instances of human conflicts.


Britain is awash with them with the prospect of more,

No they aren't but of course you inflate the number GROSSLY to justify your worst fears and maybe that's understandable given your own countries approach to the problem of boat people, or the indigenous "lazy" (your word from previous posts) you took from them when you were the IMMIGRANT from another land.

You are one to talk aren't you? Unless of course you are an INDIGENOUS Australian.


success has its own rewards as I'm sure you know.

LOL, of course I know that and to date no society on Earth has solved the fall outs of WAR, or the poverty, and suffering that that always follows.



The Britions did what everyone else was thinking, we want our country back!


BS, facts show that the "LEAVERS" narrowly won the referendum, and their was just slightly less voters for the REMAINERS, so again you conflate the FACTS.


Have you noticed where the Britons want to spend the money they save, on Hospitals. Don't think that people here don't have the same thoughts

Health care systems are in shambles in Briton because of the austerity cuts to funding and benefits, and fact is this is a global situation (Except for the wealthy... country doesn't matter! ). The savings from leaving the EU is at best dubious given the financial repercussions which have not even been realized yet... but they will!


. I have come to the conclusion one muslim is a muslim too many. It is time to build that wall if you don't already have one but we are building it in the wrong place, it should be built along the shores of the mediterranian

Stay tuned as more FACTS will be revealed later and I have little doubt your arguments and attitude will be shown to be in ERROR due to short sighted, and non objective assessment of the FACTS of the matter.

Prejudicial and biased are the words I ascribe to your opinion. See I can be NICE! :D

Going to a next door country FROM a country actually at war would be considered reffugee, picking an affluent country halfway across the world to move to illegally turns them into economic opportunists. And takes away any moral high ground they might have actually had.

Many of these people aren't even Syrian to begin with, which disqualifies them from using the term refugee.

Going to a next door country FROM a country actually at war would be considered reffugee, picking an affluent country halfway across the world to move to illegally turns them into economic opportunists. And takes away any moral high ground they might have actually had.

Many of these people aren't even Syrian to begin with, which disqualifies them from using the term refugee.
Thank God the U.S. welcomed my poor German ancestors as immigrants during the European wars in the mid-1800s!

This is now a conclusive question. It will take years before it can be resolved. Brits have left the EU so we wait and see about Scotland and they are wanting to stay in the EU.

THIS is no longer a political issue.




R

Britain has not left the EU, the British people have expressed an opinion and it is now up to politicians to decide if they are brave enough to implement it or not. What is surely needed is an election. It is a difficult position to be in. uncharted waters. The result is disputed by those who didn't vote, this is why we have compulsory voting, it ensures a true representative result. The Europeans want a rush to exit because they fear the instability of a drawn out process but Britons should fear the fall out in political instability.

The scots are a tiny part of the equation, 6 million people and moves on their part will only contribute to instability

The whole leave campaign was run from a xenophobic stand point, immigration was the main angle.
It is clear that the British people have little understanding of this hot topic.
They fail to understand that being in or out of the EU has little effect on net migration.
Part of the EU treaty was the freedom for members to move within member states for work etc.

The "immigration problem" is actually non-EU citizen, especially Middle Eastern decent, mainly Syria.
Therein lies the crux of the matter that people will only slowly start to realise...

It is interesting to see the movements happening in other EU states on a similar bandwagon.
The NF of Le Penn in France are calling for their own referendum..

This could very well be the beginning of the end of the EU as we know it...

I read a quip that sums up my feelings on Brexit pretty well: someone said "I hope Britain can survive without Greece."

The "immigration problem" is actually non-EU citizen, especially Middle Eastern decent, mainly Syria.
Therein lies the crux of the matter that people will only slowly start to realise...



This could very well be the beginning of the end of the EU as we know it...

I refute that is is about Syrian refugees, they are a small part of the equation, Britain has many residents who are not of british descent, people from the subcontintent, about 4 million, people from eastern europe, more than a million, people of african descent. The point is there are more than 10 % non britons in Britain and as some Britons have said they are swamping services like hospitals and doctors, taking jobs and changing the nature of Britain. The people of the UK are entitled to their own country and entitled to say enough. You may think this is xenophopic but it is not. I know how they feel. If you go to a hospital outpatients in my country in western Sydney you will see the services swamped by "middle eastern" people. These are not the people the services were created to serve, meaning the services must be vastly expanded. No one in this state made the decision to accept these people. We are yet to see the impact of Syrian refugees and it is the same for the people of the UK. I hear British people want to migrate here, they are very acceptable, no one has to educate them in our values, our language, our laws, our politicial or religious beliefs

You may think this is xenophopic

How about outlandishly bigoted?

I,will say the true bigotry and xenphobia is the anti anyone not Muslim or middle eastern in the middle east that's the root of most of the middle east side problems.

It's also not bigoted or xenophobic for the people of any nation to determine who they will allow into THEIR, and this is THEIR country.

Every country has a right to control it's borders and determine who will and will not be allowed in.

And it's not bigoted to be wary or unwilling to want the one ethic / religious groups historically responsible for over 99% of terrorism on the grounds of keeping the population safe. Because it's based on sound, proven and reasonable facts.

Would you refuse to allow a member of a MS 13 in your house to babysit your children?

Probably not, and for the very same reasons?

As far as how this applies to the UK, why should Belgium and Germany decide how many illegals they MOST accept and pay for. Maybe the UK should give up its own currency as well, and let monetary policy be determined by someone else as well, why go halfway.

I know many Italians want out,28 years of knowing true Italians I understand their issues with being pushed around yet again by the Germans, etc over stuff the Germans etc aren't willing to pay for.

Being bullied into buying and paying for stuff they don't want, and can't afford to pay for..

The UK isn't really fully integrated in the EU now, otherwise the would have the EURO, and wouldn't be booking at the trash that's been trying to cross from France everyone else is being forced to take.

After all, what a few million more people on the dole committing crimes, they have more rights than the Britons have.

Personally I have no gripes with the UK, even though I have no English blood in my family tree, I do have Irish and Scottish as well as German. Odd I am supporting the Bits who want self determination, against the Current German bullying in the EU.

I refute that is is about Syrian refugees, they are a small part of the equation,
I'm surprised at you clete, why focus on one small element of what I said, especially as that's only a minor part of the overall issue.
I think you've missed my point completely, but never mind..

Refugees are one thing, but this is about the entire issue.

Curly you said the issue is non EU citizen and yes to an extent it is, very much so, but it is also the more than a million EU citizens resident in the UK. The UK has woken up to a nightmare, for years they have tried to moderate the flow of immigrants with constant issues at their border with France but EU rules impose a burden on them and with an influx of refugees into Germany, where are those refugees going to go once they have the recognition, some will head for the UK because not all those refugees are syrian. There is a point in the life of a country when you need to focus on your own problems. We, none of us, are here to solve the problems of the middle east or Africa or eastern europe or asia and the UK has said very clearly "enough"

Yes there is more than migration in this, there is regulation and non representative government

I think on both sides of the Atlantic the revolt is against the bureaucratic state. Legislators have been replaced by executive administrators and the people have lost their representation. This is a good revolt . However ,In this country the sorry excuse for rebellion says that we should hire a competent executive to manage the elephantine nanny state . Pathetic !

I don't think the powers in Brussels or London will allow the will of the people to be executed .

Tom I don't think they will usurp the democratic process. England is where the greatest support for brexit is, therefore a lot of politicians loose their seats if they ignore the result. This represents a massive vote of no confidence in the conservatives, in government generally, therefore Cameron shouldn't wait, he should call an election or at very least throw the leadership up for a vote. I understand they are afraid of UKIP but the longer they wait the worse the result will be. They have had a referundum, if Cameron won't implement it, he should resign, not wait for the party convention. He made a brave decision, now he has to make another

Tom I don't think they will usurp the democratic process.


The EU usurps the democratic process. Brexit is Magna Carta 2.0 ....... freedom from unelected and unaccountable socialist bureaucrats, and a court that is increasingly making legal decisions that replace British law .

Stupid British government went along with the stupid EU governing body. Much like governments across the globe and especially here in the US where our own government serves the rich elites interest, and ignores the common citizen.

Stupid British government went along with the stupid EU governing body. Much like governments across the globe and especially here in the US where our own government serves the rich elites interest, and ignores the common citizen.

Yes even at least one of your presidents has endorsed the New World Order and Obama is working to bring it about

. When Britain joined the EU I expect that what they expected was something akin to a free trade agreement, it is doubtful they expected to be come just another state ruled by a federal government in Brussles. They have resisted handing over soveriegnty and this one more rebutal. I'm amazed the scots want to bow down to european domination nad are trying to drag Britain with them

Stupid British government went along with the stupid EU governing body. Much like governments across the globe and especially here in the US where our own government serves the rich elites interest, and ignores the common citizen.

The revolt is against the failures of the progressive Wilsonian federal administrative state . Wilson said the constitution was obsolete .He held that the business of politics( elections)should be separated from the administration of government, which would be overseen by unelected "experts", who would write the regulatory controls the nation is governed under .Unelected and highly trained experts could govern the nation more rationally, effectively, and responsibly than elected representatives. Elected legislatures roles would be diminished . This happened in the US over a century of destruction of constitutional principles . It was introduced in Europe 1st through the introduction of Bismarck and Fabian socialism ...then later expanded with the introduction of the EU .
Trump is not a revolution (he represents the final nail in the coffin of the Republican party), He. would just bring his own 'experts ' into the system. He argues against the incompetence and corruption of the people running the government (much like you do Tal) .He does not speak at all of reforming the big federal system .If anything he call for more of it(just like the inconsistent and incomprehensible babble that came from Bernie Sanders ,and Elizabeth Warren) . You never hear him speak of returning to constitutional governance .

He would be another emperor with a 'pen and a phone'. The only difference is in his mind ,would be the better manager of the leviathan .He would pay for his expansive programs by eliminating “waste, fraud, and abuse”.....he'll 'make deals'.

You don't believe me ? Read the transcripts of his interview about health care :

Donald Trump: Obamacare’s going to be repealed and replaced. Obamacare is a disaster if you look at what’s going on with premiums where they’re up 40, 50, 55 percent.
Scott Pelley: How do you fix it?
Donald Trump: There’s many different ways, by the way. Everybody’s got to be covered. This is an un-Republican thing for me to say because a lot of times they say, ‘No, no, the lower 25 percent that can’t afford private. But–‘
Scott Pelley: Universal health care.
Donald Trump: I am going to take care of everybody. I don’t care if it costs me votes or not. Everybody’s going to be taken care of much better than they’re taken care of now.
Scott Pelley: The uninsured person is going to be taken care of. How? How?
Donald Trump: They’re going to be taken care of. I would make a deal with existing hospitals to take care of people. And, you know what, if this is probably–
Scott Pelley: Make a deal? Who pays for it?
Donald Trump: –the government’s gonna pay for it. But we’re going to save so much money on the other side. But for the most it’s going to be a private plan and people are going to be able to go out and negotiate great plans with lots of different competition with lots of competitors with great companies and they can have their doctors, they can have plans, they can have everything.

And it is not just in health care . He promises big government executive action on almost every issue be it social security ;be it trade.

Glad to have you back in CE, Tom! Have missed your input.

To the subject at hand, no matter the position or ideology, the lack of consensus action by government is at the heart of the matter. Hillary has a website full of detailed plans trump does not and I agree he seeks to destroy the republican party like he destroyed the primary candidates.

At least he grasps that the ordinary guy has been given a really raw deal and that's a global fact. The Donald cannot destroy repubs without the support of other repubs and they sure have voted for him so far.

Whether you believe he can deliver on his rhetoric is another story, as in Briton, more will be revealed later.

At least he grasps that the ordinary guy has been given a really raw deal and you think Evita hasn't been complicit in this betrayal ? The fact that she has policy positions authored by someone else does not impress me . I know where she stands . She will repudiate even the moderation that the philanderer in chief had when he ran the DNC and the Presidency after Newt reigned him in. The next 4-8 years will determine whether (in the words of Lincoln ) 'government by the people ,for the people' ,can stand . Neither candidate gives me much hope .

I think it is time to close this thread, because it is no longer about brexit. Now we are talking about political arguments in south america... okay

@Tickle: Brexit didn't develop in a vacuum, nor is it an isolated event either.

This started LONG before Clinton Tom, and well before the decline of industry in the 1970's. Government allowed Big Biz to do as it pleased because there was then, and always has been a huge profit in CHEAP labor, even as technology made jobs OBSOLETE.

This double whammy has profound negative effects on generations of workers throughout the world. So why are we just now taking notice and speaking out? I guess you have to get screwed for years before you say ouch and then a fool comes along to finish scaring the crap out of you.

South America?

I've read the Brits have two years to bring the Exit to pass. I've also read there are mutterings about having a second referendum. What is true?

@Tickle: Brexit didn't develop in a vacuum, nor is it an isolated event either.

This started LONG before Clinton Tom, and well before the decline of industry in the 1970's. Government allowed Big Biz to do as it pleased because there was then, and always has been a huge profit in CHEAP labor, even as technology made jobs OBSOLETE.

This double whammy has profound negative effects on generations of workers throughout the world. So why are we just now taking notice and speaking out? I guess you have to get screwed for years before you say ouch and then a fool comes along to finish scaring the crap out of you.

so why does the party that cares for the workers encourage the illegal immigration of cheap labor into the country ?


I think it is time to close this thread, because it is no longer about brexit. Now we are talking about political arguments in south america... okay
This is the type of thing that drove me away from this site .

so why does the party that cares for the workers encourage the illegal immigration of cheap labor into the country ?

Again I go back to the inability of government to reach a consensus which in this case is immigration reform. I also submit in the absence of such consensus, Big Biz exploits cheap labor in many instances across the service industry with not raising wages.

You are well aware of my Walmart argument where workers wages are subsidized by taxpayers aren't you? They are also given huge tax breaks by local governments. I also submit that the party that cares for workers (Your words) is pushing for a minimum wage increase, already adapted in some locations/states (And employers, Walmart being one).

Hmm... wonder who uses cheap illegal immigrants labor in the US? Wonder what happens if Trump gets his way and destroys NAFTA? I doubt we could help our friends the Brits deal with their BREXIT!

Have to add that Mexicans have come north to work for many decades before it was illegal, and the work is STILL here, but they aren't the only illegal immigrants here.

Again I go back to the inability of government to reach a consensus which in this case is immigration reform. I also submit in the absence of such consensus, Big Biz exploits cheap labor in many instances across the service industry with not raising wages.

You are well aware of my Walmart argument where workers wages are subsidized by taxpayers aren't you? They are also given huge tax breaks by local governments. I also submit that the party that cares for workers (Your words) is pushing for a minimum wage increase, already adapted in some locations/states (And employers, Walmart being one).

Hmm... wonder who uses cheap illegal immigrants labor in the US? Wonder what happens if Trump gets his way and destroys NAFTA? I doubt we could help our friends the Brits deal with their BREXIT!

Have to add that Mexicans have come north to work for many decades before it was illegal, and the work is STILL here, but they aren't the only illegal immigrants here.

All right Tal what price a MEXIT. The Britons will have their BREXIT because Britain will never join the UNITED STATES OF EUROPE and give away their soveriengty. This was about more than trade, it was about more than immigration, Germany has been driving an agenda allowing them to at last conquer Europe.
The US faces the problem of migration from Mexico, not content with jobs flowing south, the mexicans seek to take over the US by migration, this can be slowed by repudiating NAFTA, closing the border and deporting illegals. Your free trade philosophies have backfired, you have given away the industries and still they come, because they don't just want work as peons, they want the life style too

Again I go back to the inability of government to reach a consensus which in this case is immigration reform. I also submit in the absence of such consensus, Big Biz exploits cheap labor in many instances across the service industry with not raising wages.

You are well aware of my Walmart argument where workers wages are subsidized by taxpayers aren't you? They are also given huge tax breaks by local governments. I also submit that the party that cares for workers (Your words) is pushing for a minimum wage increase, already adapted in some locations/states (And employers, Walmart being one).

Hmm... wonder who uses cheap illegal immigrants labor in the US? Wonder what happens if Trump gets his way and destroys NAFTA? I doubt we could help our friends the Brits deal with their BREXIT!

Have to add that Mexicans have come north to work for many decades before it was illegal, and the work is STILL here, but they aren't the only illegal immigrants here.

Given your argument that companies are evil money grubbing greedy bass turds ; what do you think the REAL effect of minimum wages will be ? What impact do you think it will have on the small business that can barely afford to pay their employees now ? I thought you guys cared about mom and pop businesses on Main Street . Guess not . They will either close, hike up their prices in the hopes that the consumer understands(customers won't ) , flee the town , or consolidate positions and eliminate jobs. You ask what the impact of the min wage increase to $15 will have and is having on municipalities where it already initiated ? Any employee who cannot produce $15 an hour in value for their employers cannot legally work in that town . That includes high school and college students who are looking to pay for their education and have some pocket change ,but don't plan on slicing bologna the rest of their lives . Oregon lawmakers passed their law before state hired economists checked in. They concluded that the new law will cost Oregon 40,000 jobs that low wage workers would've filled .
Forbes Welcome (http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/06/11/oregon-says-the-states-minimum-wage-rise-will-cost-40000-jobs/#24a1c5a5145e)

$15 Minimum Wage Sends California Businesses Fleeing | The Daily Caller (http://dailycaller.com/2016/04/26/15-minimum-wage-sends-california-businesses-fleeing/)

You pay lip service to helping the low wage and unskilled worker . But your actions speak another language .

South America?

I've read the Brits have two years to bring the Exit to pass. I've also read there are mutterings about having a second referendum. What is true?
Brexit is too good to be true . So it probably won't happen. The vote that took place is not binding. Parliament has the final say on whether the U.K. leaves the EU. Also ,as you say ,there is already a movement being orchestrated by the elites in London to have another referendum.

Article 50 of the EU says that the EU must be informed by the country leadership before secession can take place. Cameron already said he is leaving that to a successor .There are some who say the PM should not invoke Art 50 until Parliament passes an approval. Most of Parliament is opposed to Brexit .Parliament will have to be dissolved with new elections ,and pro-Brexit MPs installed .
There is also a possibility that the Scottish Parliament could nix it .

Even if Art 50 is invoked ,it takes 2 years to negotiate the terms of dissolution .

Lip service Tom is giving an employer the right to place a value on another human. Profits over PEOPLE. Austerity for those that have no value and can be justified by calling them a lazy drag on the economy, and the haves are entitled to unbridled profits and growth.

How has that business model worked so far, using the US, Briton, and the EU as examples? Be honest and count the growing discontent in the aforementioned countries. You can't ignore it any longer, and the elite policy makers do so at their own peril.

You hate the nanny state and push for the DADDY state, that doles out the LOVE to the select few who align with such self entitled thinking. Very convenient to justify ignoring and vilifying the have NOT'S, but be warned that it easy to oppress the few, until the few become the many, so best find a good place to run and hide with your extracted gains because the many you have denied any value will certainly REVOLT!

That's what BREXIT is all about, and that's what the US election is about. Unbridled capitalism, doesn't work for the many Tom, never has in the history of man! That's not lip service, it's historical fact.

Circulate some of them profits you greedy hoarding B@STARDS!! You hear me you money grubbers?!

Lip service Tom is giving an employer the right to place a value on another human.

This exemplifies the failure of Progressive logic. Equating a person's labor to their worth as a human is the viewpoint of a slavemaster, not that of an employer. Was Thomas Edison's work as a patent clerk his total worth? Hardly. Is Justin or Maria or Lashanda only worth their ability to make change at the drive-thru? Again, no. But does Jerome their employer have to pay for Justin's artwork or Maria's music or Lashanda's athletics? The Progressive slavemaster would say yes.

Tom is always in favour of capitalism and tricle down economics, no one told Reagan it didn't work. The nanny state can be too much of a good thing, it enables politicians to maniputate the electorate as the Labor Party, read socialist, did in Australia in the recent election campaign

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=48378&stc=1
Tom is always in favour of capitalism and tricle down economics, no one told Reagan it didn't work. The nanny state can be too much of a good thing, it enables politicians to maniputate the electorate as the Labor Party, read socialist, did in Australia in the recent election campaign

This exemplifies the failure of Progressive logic. Equating a person's labor to their worth as a human is the viewpoint of a slavemaster, not that of an employer. Was Thomas Edison's work as a patent clerk his total worth? Hardly. Is Justin or Maria or Lashanda only worth their ability to make change at the drive-thru? Again, no. But does Jerome their employer have to pay for Justin's artwork or Maria's music or Lashanda's athletics? The Progressive slavemaster would say yes.

You made my point, or misunderstood it. All men are created equal, and a burger flipper shouldn't have to be on welfare to pay rent! No working person should! That's why progressives want a new higher minimum wage.

Sorry if that cuts into your PROFITS.

a burger flipper shouldn't have to be on welfare to pay rent

Why should said burger flipper be paid $15.00 (or whatever) when he produces $9?


According to Reuters' financial information (Jack In The Box Inc (JACK.O) Financials (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/financialHighlights?symbol=JACK.O)), Jack in the Box's annual profit per employee is $4,314. The average front-line fast food worker works 24 hours/week; let's guess that most Jack in the Box workers are working about that much, and some of them work more, and use 30 hours/week average. That would be 1,560 hours worked per employee per year on average. Divide $4,314 by 1,560 and you get $2.77 profit per man-hour.
https://www.quora.com/How-much-value-does-the-average-fast-food-worker-create-per-hour

All men are created equal, and a burger flipper shouldn't have to be on welfare to pay rent! No working person should! That's why progressives want a new higher minimum wage.


Feel good nonsense . Cats is right ,you should be paid based on the value you produce. I can guarantee you that the job is on the fast track to automation ,and it will arrive there much faster if you progressives get your way . I'll repeat the findings of Oregon's own government economists ......the new law will cost Oregon 40,000 jobs that low wage workers would've filled .

You made my point, or misunderstood it. All men are created equal, and a burger flipper shouldn't have to be on welfare to pay rent! No working person should! That's why progressives want a new higher minimum wage.

Sorry if that cuts into your PROFITS.

I agree Tal there should be a fair living minimum wage, but at the same time you have to be careful otherwise you wind up as you did in the communist system with everyone being paid the same and all incentive destroyed. What also has to be realised is that in a welfare state you have a situation develop that is called the poverty trap where you can't afford to take a minimum wage job. This is another reason why the minimum wage needs to also be an incentive to quit welfare


Feel good nonsense . Cats is right ,you should be paid based on the value you produce. I can guarantee you that the job is on the fast track to automation ,and it will arrive there much faster if you progressives get your way . I'll repeat the findings of Oregon's own government economists ......the new law will cost Oregon 40,000 jobs that low wage workers would've filled .


What are you going to do with all those low paid workers with no jobs and no incentive, to automate low paid jobs is a foolish idea, to automate dangerous jobs is a good idea

I agree Tal there should be a fair living minimum wage, but at the same time you have to be careful otherwise you wind up as you did in the communist system with everyone being paid the same and all incentive destroyed. What also has to be realised is that in a welfare state you have a situation develop that is called the poverty trap where you can't afford to take a minimum wage job. This is another reason why the minimum wage needs to also be an incentive to quit welfare


What are you going to do with all those low paid workers with no jobs and no incentive, to automate low paid jobs is a foolish idea, to automate dangerous jobs is a good idea
I love going to the ATM instead of having to walk into the bank and interact with a teller .Saves me a lot of time . I love using the self check out in the grocery store .It's the only place in the store I don't have to wait in a long line to pay for my food.
By Tal's and your standard evaluation the restaurant owners are greedy bass turds . So if they are forced to pay more for low skill labor ,they are naturally going to push back and find ways to reduce payroll.

Carl's Jr. wants to open automated location - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/carls-jr-wants-open-automated-location-2016-3)

New McDonald's In Phoenix Run Entirely By Robots - News Examiner - Examine Your World (http://newsexaminer.net/food/mcdonalds-to-open-restaurant-run-by-robots/)

I love going to the ATM instead of having to walk into the bank and interact with a teller .Saves me a lot of time . I love using the self check out in the grocery store .It's the only place in the store I don't have to wait in a long line to pay for my food.
By Tal's and your standard evaluation the restaurant owners are greedy bass turds . So if they are forced to pay more for low skill labor ,they are naturally going to push back and find ways to reduce payroll.

Carl's Jr. wants to open automated location - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/carls-jr-wants-open-automated-location-2016-3)


New McDonald's In Phoenix Run Entirely By Robots - News Examiner - Examine Your World (http://newsexaminer.net/food/mcdonalds-to-open-restaurant-run-by-robots/)
Let me tell you a little story from the far side Tom, your thinking stinks by the way, In my part of the world we have a highly developed cafe' and restaurant society including even michelin capped chefs vying to get in on the action, staff are paid a fair wage and don't have to rely on tips to survive, Business is booming' Not all advances in automation are bad and if you want to do the work yourself at the supermarket or the gas station go ahead, Have you noticed they haven't automated plumbing or electrical work. I suggest that when they get to automated medicine you draw the line but they won't do that because there are too many pigs with their snout in the trough. You have to ask, what are we going to do with all those workers sitting on their bum doing nothing but play with their phones all day? We are going to have to stop people making babies because it is illogical to allow the population to increase under these circumstances unless of course you want cannon fodder. When I started in my profession we used pen and paper and maybe a slide rule or adding machine, when I retired I could do the work of seven men, no longer needed a secretary but I worked longer hours and had high blood pressure. Was it worth it? In some cases yes, but what were those who were displaced doing?

Gotcha, so wrap your head around subsidizing low skilled workers that have low paying jobs. Even for multinational companies who use cheap foreign labor and have billions in profits, and get tax breaks for moving overseas. While your at it find something for the workers who's jobs get eliminated by technology. For that matter you better find something for all those kids who can get jobs to pay for those loans so they could get a skilled job.

I doubt you can eliminate the nanny state without solving POVERTY.

Have you noticed they haven't automated plumbing or electrical work.

Clete and Tal
That is correct those are highly skilled professions that will not be displaced . Neither will those chefs be displaced . I suggest those people sitting on their bums because they lost their jobs to automation retrain and learn a skill that has value ;as you did . You did not end your career with a slide rule and a pencil . The draftsman did not stop working because the cad machine displaced the graph paper .The burger flipper is and always was a starter job. Back in the day when the government wasn't subsidizing such work ,the young worker starting out took those jobs and then moved on making room for the next young workers etc . The government in it's infinite wisdom decided that burger flipping should be a career ,and that a burger flipper should be able to raise a family .So burger flipper became a permanent job. Now there are none for the young person looking to make a few dollars while going to school ; and the burger flipper is stuck in a job they hate, is unsatisfying ,and believing they are underpaid victims . It's your ideas that stink.

Tal no one can solve poverty, it is a state of mind, but we can be sensitive to low wages and circumstances of those who try hard but their capitalist owners just don't have compassion and understand that if they have a loyal employee they should reward that employee with increased wages. What has developed is a dog in the manger attitude where they will just pay the least they can.

Study loans are a nonsense, it is just a way of eductors gouging students while offering course that impart no useful skills. What we should have is government support for vital skills, paying the student fees on performance and let those who want to study the arts and non essential skills to pay for their course. So what I'm syaing is Stem courses and medicine should be subsidied, as should trades and the crap courses shouldn't be. Extension courses such as masters and PHD should not be subsidised by student loans

Tal no one can solve poverty, it is a state of mind, but we can be sensitive to low wages and circumstances of those who try hard but their capitalist owners just don't have compassion and understand that if they have a loyal employee they should reward that employee with increased wages. What has developed is a dog in the manger attitude where they will just pay the least they can.

Study loans are a nonsense, it is just a way of eductors gouging students while offering course that impart no useful skills. What we should have is government support for vital skills, paying the student fees on performance and let those who want to study the arts and non essential skills to pay for their course. So what I'm syaing is Stem courses and medicine should be subsidied, as should trades and the crap courses shouldn't be. Extension courses such as masters and PHD should not be subsidised by student loans

I worked and took out loans to go to school. It was my choice and I assumed the risk. I also paid back every penny I borrowed with interest .It is in fact government subsidizing of college education that has driven the cost of education up so much.

I doubt you can eliminate the nanny state without solving POVERTY.

Eliminating the Nanny state will take just about as long as creating it took: about half a century. It can be done by teaching kids to stand up for themselves instead of relying on bureaucrats. Byproducts will include more fist fights in grade school but fewer shootings in high school, more confidence but fewer participation trophies, less need for 'safe spaces' and more need for faculty lounges, and more lemonade stands and fewer flash mobs.

As far as solving "POVERTY," first we will need a definition in absolute terms rather than merely income statistics. Owning a 3 bedroom house with a garage is seldom considered "poor" except by the nanny state.

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2011/07/what-is-poverty

I worked and took out loans to go to school. It was my choice and I assumed the risk. I also paid back every penny I borrowed with interest .It is in fact government subsidizing of college education that has driven the cost of education up so much.

And isn't that what I said but only those who get a good job can repay and we shouldn't be burdening kids that way, student loans are a crap idea

Eliminating the Nanny state will take just about as long as creating it took: about half a century. It can be done by teaching kids to stand up for themselves instead of relying on bureaucrats. Byproducts will include more fist fights in grade school but fewer shootings in high school, more confidence but fewer participation trophies, less need for 'safe spaces' and more need for faculty lounges, and more lemonade stands and fewer flash mobs.
What is Poverty in the United States: Air Conditioning, Cable TV and an Xbox (http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2011/07/what-is-poverty)

I truly think you are out of touch, some people really scrimp to own their own home. My daughter has been on a slow road down with three houses thus far because her husband's income is basic and she can't get a job, not a lot going in this area for a forty something who has just got three teens off her hands
. You see it can be that to rent is just as expensive as to own. Unless you are renting a dump

Poverty is about not being able to afford the essentials, power, gas, rates and it can be the person doesn't have a good grasp on money management, but there is the factor of low income even with a family member in employment. Big bills like medical aren't easily handled and that isn't appreciated by someone who has more than enough and certainly not by silver tailed politicians who will never have to worry again. I laugh when I see a power hungry rich man want the top job in the country

And isn't that what I said but only those who get a good job can repay and we shouldn't be burdening kids that way, student loans are a crap idea
Then stop the propaganda we sell them that a college education is the path to Nirvana.

Thanks for the link, I just wonder how a stove and refrigerator can be considered an amenity, or why poverty in America can be compared to poverty anywhere else? Bottom line you can't live off $13,000 bucks a year with kids, try it and let me know how you make out. Factor in most are single working moms and tell me what kind of car they drive to that minimum wage job, or a family of two low income wage earners that can only afford one clunker.

We still are only talking about a nanny state that costs 10% of the American GDP, far less than the subsidies given to rich guy farmers and billionaires. Do the math, the nanny state is more than just people below a poverty wage, which conservatives vilify and begrudge but say NOTHING about corporate welfare. Here are some more recent facts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_programs_in_the_United_States

The least you guys can do is stop bullying poor men, women, and kids while you worship guys like Trump who have come out of the last recession no worse for wear. Plus the national debt isn't caused by poor people, though they are the first to be cut and blamed for taking money we don't have, but those welfare checks to Big Biz in the form of tax cuts, and off the book wars.

Now think of the rest of the planet who don't make that $13G a year and who have no refrigerator, or cable, or any other social programs for that matter. Are we seeing a bigger picture here yet?

Then stop the propaganda we sell them that a college education is the path to Nirvana.

LOL, without that college education you will be making minimum wage for sure, sadly not everyone can afford or is college material. Nobody looks for Nirvana just a chance at a decent life. That's the American Dream. You got something against hoping for better?

LOL, without that college education you will be making minimum wage for sure, sadly not everyone can afford or is college material. Nobody looks for Nirvana just a chance at a decent life. That's the American Dream. You got something against hoping for better?

Honestly ,the pathway to my career was not my college education .It was the work I did to pay for it that led me to where I am today. In the old days what I did was called an apprenticeship .It led to a career .Now I don't say that there was no value in the education I got . College taught me to be a critical thinker . On the down side ;it took me some time to deprogram from the indoctrination. Trust me ;I would not be making a minimum wage or anything close to it . The last time I made minimum wage,or less (back then there was a different wage for teens working ) was in high school. I NEVER saw that as the end game. Until recently I was always looking to advance . Long hours and on the job learning was my path .

Then stop the propaganda we sell them that a college education is the path to Nirvana.

Where did I say that? Actually you sell them a right of passage, but where does it lead? Some come out ahead and others have no path because the market is oversupplied until it gets to the stage that unless you have a PHD you are not going anywhere. All you produce are educated idiots, where are the products of this system who have made the world better? A rich man can buy a presidency, no brains needed as is being demonstrated and some dlckhead will give him an hononary PHD

Same here Tom but I never knock those who lacked the aptitude that I had, nor begrudged anyone going through a hard time through no fault of their own. I've seen and experienced many things that make me grateful for my good fortunes, and to be honest admire the spirit of those with less who are decent honest people who keep trying and are actually happy about what little they do have.

Unfortunately Tom, I think we never see the folks who quietly manage as best they can with very little, and only pay attention to the loudmouths who have a hand full of gimme and never a much obliged. Do some volunteering and I think you and my man Smoothy would get your eyes open to the true condition of the majority of poor folks, and how they really live, and you would understand the ignorant are a minority.

Indeed it's a fact that poor people don't cause recessions, oil spills, or unemployment, but those things do make people poor.

<See ya' later TODAY OjO>