Religion only seems to serve divide, death and war. Why follow?

Religion doesn't divide. It's the humans, the followers, who divide.

If it's humans and followers that divide, is the route of this religion

If it's humans and followers that divide, is the route of this religion
A specific religion? ("this" religion)

No, it's how the followers interpret the religion. Almost all religions have the Golden Rule as their basis.

A specific religion? ("this" religion)

I forgot the commer, it wasn't 'this religion' it was 'is the route of this, religion'

I agree with the golden rule, but is religion just another tool to use to manipulate

it was 'is the route of this, religion'

I agree with the golden rule, but is religion just another tool to use to manipulate
And who takes "routes"? Who uses tools to manipulate? People do. "People," not religion, is the problem.

Your right, it's people and not the other way round. People use god as a tool and not the other way round. So is religion just a destraction or worse a tool of hatred and divide.

So is religion just a destraction or worse a tool of hatred and divide.
It can be, depending on what the adherents/followers twist it to be. It can also be the opposite.

People are dangerous. It is all a matter of what tool they use, be it patriotism, racism, religion, or just general hatred. You can't make it about religion, or faith as a whole. Most religions say, "Wouldn't it be nice if you were good to your fellow human being?", fleshed out thousand fold of course. It usually isn't the faith to blame but those who're using it as a tool.

If it's humans and followers that divide, is the route of this religion

Although we have seen religion as one of the important factor on what's going on in the world today. However, It is not the dangerous one, Half knowledge of the religion is dangerous and ignorance is cherry on the top. People like to blame on other things for all the evil deed, they do. "My people are destroyed, bcos they don't know me''.
If people claim themselves a follower it doesn't mean they are. You can see their fruit and know them. People, hungry of powers and ''self seeking selfish'' often use the religion to dictate others, but God knows there heart. And He has nothing to do with them. There are people who really follow it to help other people but some use it to fulfill their own agenda. And there are people who don't look and try to enquire themselves for their own good but instead follow these people's examples and wrong things they have done in the name of religion, thinking that this what it means to be Religious.

I have a kitchen knife! I use it everyday to cut vegetables and prepare delicious food for my Fam. One day, my kitchen knife flew by itself and tried to poke my little puppy. I am sure My knife is here to serve how to poke, and war? Why should I use it? I should use my hands to tear the vegetables to make it edible and chewy, bite size.
Oh one more! If my kitchen knife is a tool, then its surely a tool for hatred of puppy.

But I suspect my Kitchen knife flew by itself, I think somebody mishandled it while cutting vegetables and it fell on the puppy and scared him. Sigh!

A specific religion? ("this" religion)

I forgot the commer, it wasn't 'this religion' it was 'is the route of this, religion'

I agree with the golden rule, but is religion just another tool to use to manipulate

That is how I see the Abrahamic religions yes. I believe that the I believe that the Talmud, Bible and Koran were written by misogynistic homophobic men, because among other things, this is what is written in all of these books:

1. Slavery is OK! Leviticus 25:44 states that you may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. You are even allowed to sell your own children! Sanctioned in Exodus 21:7.

2. People that work on the Sabbath should be put to death. Exodus 35:2 clearly states they should be put to death.

3. Eating shellfish is an abomination, for which you can also be put to death Lev. 11:10.

4. Of course homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance, so homosexuals should also be put to death

5. They were also abliest, or at least towards the visual handicapped: Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight.

6. You should even be stoned for planting different crops in the same field, or wearing garments of different kinds of thread Lev.19:19.

7. You should even stone people that curse and blaspheme a lot. Lev.24:10-16.

8. And people that sleep with in laws, should be burned to death Lev. 20:14.

Well if you write those things in a book and say that that is Gods will, it appears to me as if you have some evil intentions and want people to kill each other!

Nowadays they say that all three religions are peacefull, but I really don't agree with that. There is enough in those books to make them dangerous!

Religion doesn't divide. It's the humans, the followers, who divide.

At the moment you chose one religion, you divide yourself from the others. Pi in Life of Pi tried it, but you really can't be all religions at once. You can't believe that Jesus died at the cross and resurected and that God exhanged him for Jude and had Jude crucified in his place, like the Muslims do.

At the moment you chose one religion, you divide yourself from the others.
I don't agree. I get along just fine with atheists, agnostics, Mormons, Baptists, Catholics, Hindus, Muslims, deists, wiccans, and everyone else. The thing we must all have is respect for each other's beliefs.

Religions on average aren't dangerous... people are. But there are and have been certain religions and cults that encourage its members to do harm. So there is no one right answer for this.

Religions on average aren't dangerous... people are. But there are and have been certain religions and cults that encourage its members to do harm. So there is no one right answer for this.
The ones encouraging harm and certain interpretation of beliefs are the humans who have decided that's what the religion says. It always comes back to the humans.

The ones encouraging harm and certain interpretation of beliefs are the humans who have decided that's what the religion says. It always comes back to the humans.
True. And Atheism isn't innocent of that either. The Three largest Genocides in recorded History were caused by avowed Atheists. Chairman Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot. All people... people with an evil agenda.

That is how I see the Abrahamic religions yes. I believe that the I believe that the Talmud, Bible and Koran were written by misogynistic homophobic men, because among other things, this is what is written in all of these books:

1. Slavery is OK! Leviticus 25:44 states that you may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. You are even allowed to sell your own children! Sanctioned in Exodus 21:7.

Hello, Mispurle, thanks for posting it here, I didn't recognized that other thread was closed and I answered all your levitcus questions.

2. People that work on the Sabbath should be put to death. Exodus 35:2 clearly states they should be put to death.

3. Eating shellfish is an abomination, for which you can also be put to death Lev. 11:10.

4. Of course homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance, so homosexuals should also be put to death

5. They were also abliest, or at least towards the visual handicapped: Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight.

6. You should even be stoned for planting different crops in the same field, or wearing garments of different kinds of thread Lev.19:19.

7. You should even stone people that curse and blaspheme a lot. Lev.24:10-16.

8. And people that sleep with in laws, should be burned to death Lev. 20:14.

Well if you write those things in a book and say that that is Gods will, it appears to me as if you have some evil intentions and want people to kill each other!

Nowadays they say that all three religions are peacefull, but I really don't agree with that. There is enough in those books to make them dangerous!

I know this famous Leviticus manipulate twisted letter, people post every where to validate their own personal hatred towards the God or other religion, and its people.

I have an answer surprise surprise! I can give you answer for 1- 10 if you insist, and for now I will give you short onne- Go and read the word by yourself, read it in its context, why it is written, it it what god needs, is it what's HIS true nature? know the purpose why it was written for, without any biased judgement, read it with other several scripture which talks about it. And read it with open heart. Read it without choose and pick attitude etc etc!

As I said Ignorance leads to destruction, ''My people perish bcos they don't know me''.

The very reason you used this Leviticus manipulation twisted letters bcos, you don't know what you are talking about, whom you are talking about, that's becos you don't read, that's bcos you don't believe it. You don't have full knowleged of what it says, you like to copy paste and pick, which satisfies your own selfish agenda of hating God and putting yourself above everything.

Leviticus was written to help a very disorganized group of desert people get their act together so they could become a strong nation. Leviticus is not full of rules for us; Leviticus was rules for them. And back then, thousands of years ago, there were valid reasons for those rules.

I say it!
People! Stop blaming it on religion, stone, leaf, tree, color, food, animal etc etc. You have the power to choose, If you want to harm you will.
Its you who are evil, or hurt, or intolerant etc etc. Don't blame on anything, anyone. If you have the Power to choose your Belief, then You certainly also have the Power to Choose your action, whether its evil or good.

I don't agree. I get along just fine with atheists, agnostics, Mormons, Baptists, Catholics, Hindus, Muslims, deists, wiccans, and everyone else. The thing we must all have is respect for each other's beliefs.

I also get along with religious people of different religions, but religion divides people into different groups and you can only be part of one. Catholics exclude non-Christians from going to communion for example. People that aren't Muslim aren't allowed to go to some Muslim places etc. There are parts of a religion that excludes others and I object to that. As you know my mothers family is Muslim. When my aunt died my cousin washed. I asked her how and she wasn't allowed to talk about that. I was excluded for not being a Muslim because of prescriptions from the religion and I dislike those practises.

Leviticus was written to help a very disorganized group of desert people get their act together so they could become a strong nation. Leviticus is not full of rules for us; Leviticus was rules for them. And back then, thousands of years ago, there were valid reasons for those rules.
Yes, one of the true reason of ''Leveticus".

I say it!
People! Stop blaming it on religion, stone, leaf, tree, color, food, animal etc etc. You have the power to choose, If you want to harm you will.
Its you who are evil, or hurt, or intolerant etc etc. Don't blame on anything, anyone. If you have the Power to choose your Belief, then You certainly also have the Power to Choose your action, whether its evil or good.
But they look for proof in the Bible, deliberately misinterpret it, and say, "The Bible says so," and then do evil.

I know this famous Leviticus manipulate twisted letter, people post every where to validate their own personal hatred towards the God or other religion, and its people.

I have an answer surprise surprise! I can give you answer for 1- 10 if you insist, and for now I will give you short onne- Go and read the word by yourself, read it in its context, why it is written, it it what god needs, is it what's HIS true nature? know the purpose why it was written for, without any biased judgement, read it with other several scripture which talks about it. And read it with open heart. Read it without choose and pick attitude etc etc!

As I said Ignorance leads to destruction, ''My people perish bcos they don't know me''.

The very reason you used this Leviticus manipulation twisted letters bcos, you don't know what you are talking about, whom you are talking about, that's becos you don't read, that's bcos you don't believe it. You don't have full knowleged of what it says, you like to copy paste and pick, which satisfies your own selfish agenda of hating God and putting yourself above everything.

I read the Bible, through and through and those things are in there! But I don't know it by heart and then this letters comes in handy, to name the exact places where they are written.

Please respect me enough to accept the fact that I thought all of this through. You are belittling me by acting as if I can only be an atheist because of ignorance. I respect your beliefs, please do me the courtesy to respect mine as well.

I also get along with religious people of different religions, but religion divides people into different groups and you can only be part of one. Catholics exclude non-Christians from going to communion for example. People that aren't Muslim aren't allowed to go to some Muslim places etc. There are parts of a religion that excludes others and I object to that. As you know my mothers family is Muslim. When my aunt died my cousin washed. I asked her how and she wasn't allowed to talk about that. I was excluded for not being a Muslim because of prescriptions from the religion and I dislike those practises.
But those prohibitions are man-made from mistranslations and misinterpretations.

I also get along with religious people of different religions, but religion divides people into different groups and you can only be part of one. Catholics exclude non-Christians from going to communion for example. People that aren't Muslim aren't allowed to go to some Muslim places etc. There are parts of a religion that excludes others and I object to that. As you know my mothers family is Muslim. When my aunt died my cousin washed. I asked her how and she wasn't allowed to talk about that. I was excluded for not being a Muslim because of prescriptions from the religion and I dislike those practises.

If you understood what the ceremony of Communion really was... only Catholics can participate in it... none of the members of Protestant churches that are also Christian can participate either. Its not exclusionary... its just a key part of that religion in its significance.

I've been a CHristian for longer than I can remember. I can't participate in a communion in a Catholic Church....Though I was married in one ( and not even during the Mass at the ceremony). Which also took getting special permission. My wife is Catholic..I am Protestant.

I read the Bible, through and through and those things are in there! But I don't know it by heart and then this letters comes in handy, to name the exact places where they are written.

Please respect me enough to accept the fact that I thought all of this through. You are belittling me by acting as if I can only be an atheist because of ignorance. I respect your beliefs, please do me the courtesy to respect mine as well.
Yes, they are there but written only for ancient times and a certain group of people, not for us.


If you understood what the ceremony of Communion really was... only Catholics can participate in it... none of the members of Protestant churches that are also Christian can participate either. Its not exclusionary... its just a key part of that religion in its significance.
And that divide was established by men, not God.

Yes, they are there but written only for ancient times and a certain group of people, not for us.


And that divide was established by men, not God.

I've never been upset by it... it is what it is. I didn't join the Catholic church because I don't believe in some of its doctrine. My Chosen branch of the Protestant Church only does a communion during one time of the year... and not all do it.

Leviticus was written to help a very disorganized group of desert people get their act together so they could become a strong nation. Leviticus is not full of rules for us; Leviticus was rules for them. And back then, thousands of years ago, there were valid reasons for those rules.

No. There was never a valid reason for stoning people for eating shellfish, being homosexual, wearing different fabrics, blasphemy, cursing, planting different crops or wearing different fabrics. Or burning hem for sleeping with inlaws. Killing people for these reasons in unacceptable and so is slavery. A culture/religion with those values is an evil one. IS lives by those values todday, with sexslaves that are Christian or Yezidi's. We all agree that that is wrong now, so it was wrong then as well.

If those things were never written down then, then they couldn't have been used as a justification for what IS does today.

So it is a combination, people chose to do bad things and they use religion for it, but unfortunately also the other way around: people are being brainwashed by a religion, those texts are written in their holy book, their Imam tells them they should follow them, if they are not very developed or smart, they don't know any better.

That is also why I became atheist. I f God was all powerfull and benevolent, he would have created a world, in which it wasn't necesarry to stone homosexuals or enslave your neighbours! That this could be all right with him, back then, makes me think of him as evil. But I don't believe in God, so I only think of the men who wrote Leviticus as narrowminded, cruel, barbaric, evil righteous men, just like I think of IS (and Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, The Army of The Lord (Christians!) and a lot of similar groups today.

You can become a strong nation, without having to act like IS!

I've never been upset by it... it is what it is. I didn't join the Catholic church because I don't believe in some of its doctrine. My Chosen branch of the Protestant Church only does a communion during one time of the year... and not all do it.
And that was established by men.

Yes, they are there but written only for ancient times and a certain group of people, not for us.


And that divide was established by men, not God.

I understand what communion is. In Suriname protestants are also allowed to participate in it, there are agreements between the protestant and the Catholic church there, but only the protestants that did their confirmation are allowed to participate. I understand that you need to believe in Jesus in order to eat his body and drink his blood and therefore enjoy the sacrifice that he made for us. I get it. But it is something for Christians only and I just don't like things that exclude others like that.

Yes, it wasn't established by God, because I don't believe he exists, but is done by men in the name of God, or in the name of religion, and that is one of the many reasons I am not a fan of religions.

If you don't believe in God, why would you want to take Communion? I know of churches that would allow it.

Misspurple makes a lot of sense.

Does religion make people evil, or make them do bad things? No, people make those choices by themselves, but, too many people use their religious beliefs to condone what they do. They feel righteous in doing something because their religion tells them it's okay.

Look at the bible. So many people say it's the word of God. Um, it was written by men. Had it been written by God it would make sense to everyone, and there would be no discrepancies. I think they need to write a sequel. I wouldn't mind a chapter or two in The Bible 2. :)

WG said that certain passages were written only for ancient times and a certain group of people, not for us. Okay, than what was written for us? Which parts do we adhere to, and which parts can we just let go, and who decides that? If keeping slaves wasn't meant for us, and it's okay to eat shell fish without being killed, than why do so many still hang on to gay marriage, which isn't even actually mentioned as a sin? Makes no sense.

Bottom line, no two people will have the same beliefs even in the same religion. Every human being interprets things the way they want to, to suit themselves, and to justify the things they want to do. It does come down to people, but people that believe in a certain religion, will and do use their beliefs to justify their actions.

Misspurple makes a lot of sense.

Does religion make people evil, or make them do bad things? No, people make those choices by themselves, but, too many people use their religious beliefs to condone what they do. They feel righteous in doing something because their religion tells them it's okay.
WG said it first. MP agreed with me.

WG said that certain passages were written only for ancient times and a certain group of people, not for us. Okay, than what was written for us?
The New Testament, especially Jesus' two greatest commandments.

Which parts do we adhere to, and which parts can we just let go, and who decides that? If keeping slaves wasn't meant for os, and it's okay to eat shell fish without being killed, than why do so many still hang on to gay marriage, which isn't even actually mentioned as a sin? Makes no sense.
It would if you understand those ancient times and what was going on. And gay marriage and homosexuality are not mentioned in the Bible. Those are later terms shoved in by translators who were working off an agenda.

I don't want to take Communion, I don't even want to go to mass!

I just object to organising something that is only for one religion and not for all people and every religion has those things. Because I was a Catholic and my Mother is Muslim, I could only name examples of those two religions, but there are more of course.

I just really don't like exclusion.

I'd rather do something secular to bond people, like play a boardgame or something.

SO? I object to Soccer because I don't like it... but I don't have the right to demand nobody else can watch it... I just have to ignore it when people talk about it or turn the channel when it on TV.

Better get used to exclusion... It exists everyehere... it always has, and it always will.


Would you want men you don't know in the locker room you use... or the bathroom you use. That's a form of exclusion... DO you have people over for dinner you like? If you don't invite the people you don't like too then that is another form of exclusion.

Leviticus 20:13

"'If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

If you should kill men for having sex with each other, it is very clear that you can't allow them to marry, according to Leviticus.


WG said it first. MP agreed with me.

The New Testament, especially Jesus' two greatest commandments.

It would if you understand those ancient times and what was going on. And gay marriage and homosexuality are not mentioned in the Bible. Those are later terms shoved in by translators who were working off an agenda.

Misspurple, I completely agree.

I was raised Lutheran, but went to Catholic school from 3rd grade until graduation. Part of going to Catholic school meant going to church (during school hours), on certain occasions (Easter, Christmas etc), and receiving communion. Because I was not baptized or confirmed in the Catholic religion, I had to go to church, but couldn't receive communion. I was teased relentlessly, told (not only by students but teachers) that I was going to hell because I wasn't Catholic.

My dad was Catholic, my mom Lutheran. They raised me Lutheran because they couldn't marry in the Catholic church unless my mom converted. She refused, so they married in the Lutheran Church, because they weren't as strict.

When my dad informed the priest that they'd be marrying in the Lutheran Church, he was told that he and my mother wouldn't be married in the eyes of God, that they'd be living in sin, and all their children would be bastards in the eyes of the church.

My parents let me experience both their religions. If I had to choose one, it would be Lutheran for sure, but I choose neither. I believe in God, but not one that excludes anyone because of the church they go to, which religion they follow, where they were baptized, etc. etc. In other words, I believe in God, but not religion.

Do you know how to play Euchre? We need a 4th. :)

Leviticus 20:13


"'If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

If you should kill men for having sex with each other, it is very clear that you can't allow them to marry, according to Leviticus.

See, something I agree with. And remember from Sunday school and church services.

Leviticus 20:13


"'If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

If you should kill men for having sex with each other, it is very clear that you can't allow them to marry, according to Leviticus.
That is mistranslated. Pagan temples had a fun orgy that people loved to go to. All admission fees went into the pagan temple's treasury. One of the really fun things to do during these orgies was not only straight men having sex with female prostitutes but -- WOW! even MORE fun -- having sex with straight men dressed up as women. They weren't homosexuals but the straight behavior was what we now think of as homosexual behavior.

Misspurple, I completely agree.

I was raised Lutheran, but went to Catholic school from 3rd grade until graduation. Part of going to Catholic school meant going to church (during school hours), on certain occasions (Easter, Christmas etc), and receiving communion. Because I was not baptized or confirmed in the Catholic religion, I had to go to church, but couldn't receive communion. I was teased relentlessly, told (not only by students but teachers) that I was going to hell because I wasn't Catholic.

My dad was Catholic, my mom Lutheran. They raised me Lutheran because they couldn't marry in the Catholic church unless my mom converted. She refused, so they married in the Lutheran Church, because they weren't as strict.

When my dad informed the priest that they'd be marrying in the Lutheran Church, he was told that he and my mother wouldn't be married in the eyes of God, that they'd be living in sin, and all their children would be bastards in the eyes of the church.

My parents let me experience both their religions. If I had to choose one, it would be Lutheran for sure, but I choose neither. I believe in God, but not one that excludes anyone because of the church they go to, which religion they follow, where they were baptized, etc. etc. In other words, I believe in God, but not religion.

Do you know how to play Euchre? We need a 4th. :)

Yes, and I had a Catholic father and a Muslim mother that didn't marry in church for the same reason! I always noticed how one of my parents was excluded at the other ones functions and it never felt okay. When I did my first holy communion my father was allowed to walk with me, but my mother wasn't. All other children, could walk with both their parents, if both their parents were present. (One child had a parent that died:-()

I never heard of Euchre, but since I live in The Netherlands, I don't think that I can join either:-).

Here are a lot of different translations, but they all boil down to the same thing and so does the Dutch translation that I own:


New Living Translation (http://biblehub.com/nlt/leviticus/20.htm)
"If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense.

English Standard Version (http://biblehub.com/esv/leviticus/20.htm)
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

New American Standard Bible (http://biblehub.com/nasb/leviticus/20.htm)
If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.

King James Bible (http://biblehub.com/kjv/leviticus/20.htm)
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (http://biblehub.com/hcsb/leviticus/20.htm)
If a man sleeps with a man as with a woman, they have both committed a detestable thing. They must be put to death; their blood is on their own hands.

International Standard Version (http://biblehub.com/isv/leviticus/20.htm)
"If a man has sexual relations with another male as he would with a woman, both have committed a repulsive act. They are certainly to be put to death.

NET Bible (http://biblehub.com/net/leviticus/20.htm)
If a man has sexual intercourse with a male as one has sexual intercourse with a woman, the two of them have committed an abomination. They must be put to death; their blood guilt is on themselves.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (http://biblehub.com/gwt/leviticus/20.htm)
When a man has sexual intercourse with another man as with a woman, both men are doing something disgusting and must be put to death. They deserve to die.

JPS Tanakh 1917 (http://biblehub.com/jps/leviticus/20.htm)
And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

New American Standard 1977 (http://biblehub.com/nasb77/leviticus/20.htm)
'If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.

Jubilee Bible 2000 (http://biblehub.com/jub/leviticus/20.htm)
If a man shall join himself with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

King James 2000 Bible (http://biblehub.com/kj2000/leviticus/20.htm)
If a man also lies with a man, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

American King James Version (http://biblehub.com/akjv/leviticus/20.htm)
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be on them.

American Standard Version (http://biblehub.com/asv/leviticus/20.htm)
And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Douay-Rheims Bible (http://biblehub.com/drb/leviticus/20.htm)
If any one lie with a man se with a woman, both have committed an abomination, let them be put to death: their blood be upon them.

Darby Bible Translation (http://biblehub.com/dbt/leviticus/20.htm)
And if a man lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall certainly be put to death; their blood is upon them.

English Revised Version (http://biblehub.com/erv/leviticus/20.htm)
And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Webster's Bible Translation (http://biblehub.com/wbt/leviticus/20.htm)
If a man also shall lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

World English Bible (http://biblehub.com/web/leviticus/20.htm)
"'If a man lies with a male, as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Young's Literal Translation (http://biblehub.com/ylt/leviticus/20.htm)
And a man who lieth with a male as one lieth with a woman; abomination both of them have done; they are certainly put to death; their blood is on them.

The mistranslation was done centuries ago and has never been corrected. All the current Bible versions reflect that.

I thought that every translation was from the original. How do you know what the real text says?

I thought that every translation was from the original. How do you know what the real text says?
I've done years of Bible education/study and teaching. Plus, the history about what was messed with is available on the internet. :)

Why was it never corrected then?

Three words. Dead Sea Scrolls.


There is no "original" But that's the oldest existing version discovered so far. They haven't all been restored enough to be read or translate thus far, and will be many years before they are. Many have been... but many yet remain.

That is mistranslated. Pagan temples had a fun orgy that people loved to go to. All admission fees went into the pagan temple's treasury. One of the really fun things to do during these orgies was not only straight men having sex with female prostitutes but -- WOW! even MORE fun -- having sex with straight men dressed up as women. They weren't homosexuals but the straight behavior was what we now think of as homosexual behavior.

Men sleeping with men, even if they are dressed up as women, really isn't something that I consider as straight behaviour BTW!

Men sleeping with men, even if they are dressed up as women, really isn't something that I consider as straight behaviour BTW!
If there were homosexuals at all, they were in the closet. Nations back then were interested in having babies and getting bigger and stronger. Any homosexuals kept their mouths shut about how they felt, married women, and had babies (just like they did back in my day). If anything, the straight men having sex with dressed-up straight men was making fun of any homosexuals around. Of course, all was in the name of their gods and for their gods' treasury.

Any translation is mistranslated, if you really think about it. The only person that can translate the written word, is the person that wrote it. Any translation provided by someone else, is their translation, not the authors translation.

Another case of human beings being the problem. Ask 10 different people to read the same text, you'll come up with 10 different translations. The only person that truly knows what was meant, is the person that wrote it to begin with.

Of course there were homosexuals back then. If you sleep with another man, you are either gay or bi. But straight men don't do that, period. I really don't believe that straight men have sex with other straight men dressed up as women to make fun of gay men. You don't have sex with men, if there are also women around, unless you want to!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch There was an ancient practise of using eunuchs for sex, and I call that gay. The Hijra's are already mentioned in the Kama Sutra, which is dated at 400-200 BC, so they exist even longer than that. But I even heard ministers say that King David had a gay relationship with Jonathan. There are Christian ministers that use that love affaire as a justification for marrying gay couples in churches, here in The Netherlands. Of course, Kind David supposedly lived after Moses and Leviticus, but I have absolutely no reason to believe that homosexuality is a new mutation in human kind, that wasn't around in Biblical times.

Of course there were homosexuals back then. If you sleep with another man, you are either gay or bi. But straight men don't do that, period. I really don't believe that straight men have sex with other straight men dressed up as women to make fun of gay men. You don't have sex with men, if there are also women around, unless you want to!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch There was an ancient practise of using eunuchs for sex, and I call that gay. The Hijra's are already mentioned in the Kama Sutra, which is dated at 400-200 BC, so they exist even longer than that. But I even heard ministers say that King David had a gay relationship with Jonathan. There are Christian ministers that use that love affaire as a justification for marrying gay couples in churches, here in The Netherlands. Of course, Kind David supposedly lived after Moses and Leviticus, but I have absolutely no reason to believe that homosexuality is a new mutation in human kind, that wasn't around in Biblical times.
Like I said, pagan nations wanted to grow by having babies. If somebody was gay, he hid it and married and had babies. That's what guys did back in my day. No one talked about being gay or admitted to it. It was shameful, just like in Bible times. In fact, I dated guys in high school and college who married classmates, had children, and years later when it was safe to do so, revealed that they were gay. We'd had no idea they were back then.

I didn't say homosexuality wasn't around in Bible times. It just wasn't done or talked about. The same with autism or Down's syndrome or chicken pox or sore throats. The Bible originally, as far back as we can translate, didn't mention it.

Yes, those pagan straight men loved to have sex with other straight men. It was to their pagan god's glory, part of a ceremony.

Yes, other cultures like the Greeks had man-boy love going on, but that was pederasty.

But they look for proof in the Bible, deliberately misinterpret it, and say, "The Bible says so," and then do evil.

I know, and I did what ever I could do to spread awareness. But what to do if they don't wannna hear it.

I read the Bible, through and through and those things are in there! But I don't know it by heart and then this letters comes in handy, to name the exact places where they are written.

Please respect me enough to accept the fact that I thought all of this through. You are belittling me by acting as if I can only be an atheist because of ignorance. I respect your beliefs, please do me the courtesy to respect mine as well.

I didn't get, what you are saying here. I respect you my dear. But I didn't asked you to by heart anything in my post. And when did I say that those liviticus scriptures is not there. I just said, don't just read one section of it, read whole and read about he purpose of these scriptures.
I respect your beliefs but it doesn't mean I cant defend my beliefs! Right! :-)

I know how you feel!I Already knew it bcos, It say, ''In the last days, The Love will grow Cold''. Sigh! But still end is not here yet!


If you understood what the ceremony of Communion really was... only Catholics can participate in it... none of the members of Protestant churches that are also Christian can participate either. Its not exclusionary... its just a key part of that religion in its significance.

I've been a CHristian for longer than I can remember. I can't participate in a communion in a Catholic Church....Though I was married in one ( and not even during the Mass at the ceremony). Which also took getting special permission. My wife is Catholic..I am Protestant.

Ditto! Story of my life. I am happy I am not alone. Lol

No. There was never a valid reason for stoning people for eating shellfish, being homosexual, wearing different fabrics, blasphemy, cursing, planting different crops or wearing different fabrics. Or burning hem for sleeping with inlaws. Killing people for these reasons in unacceptable and so is slavery. A culture/religion with those values is an evil one. IS lives by those values todday, with sexslaves that are Christian or Yezidi's. We all agree that that is wrong now, so it was wrong then as well.

If those things were never written down then, then they couldn't have been used as a justification for what IS does today.

So it is a combination, people chose to do bad things and they use religion for it, but unfortunately also the other way around: people are being brainwashed by a religion, those texts are written in their holy book, their Imam tells them they should follow them, if they are not very developed or smart, they don't know any better.

That is also why I became atheist. I f God was all powerfull and benevolent, he would have created a world, in which it wasn't necesarry to stone homosexuals or enslave your neighbours! That this could be all right with him, back then, makes me think of him as evil. But I don't believe in God, so I only think of the men who wrote Leviticus as narrowminded, cruel, barbaric, evil righteous men, just like I think of IS (and Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, The Army of The Lord (Christians!) and a lot of similar groups today.

You can become a strong nation, without having to act like IS!

Okey, I hope you understand by this example, bcos you like it. =
My name is Khan and I am not terrosist! You though about it, that's why you liked tis film! Right?
Now= I am Christian "Army of the Lord'' as you said but I am not... I am not the way you describes it, I am not like how you portray a Christian people to be.

And in those days... ''Love will grow cold''! Sigh!

Leviticus 20:13


"'If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

If you should kill men for having sex with each other, it is very clear that you can't allow them to marry, according to Leviticus.

See, MP77, we know its written there, and I know it sounds wrong, However, you have to understand, Look what Wondergirl said. About it. When I was RC I use to think just like you, why this and why that. I was confused and all messed up. Nothing made any sense, And the biggest thing was I was trying to read it in my own Sense. Without asking god to reveal its purpose. But later, days I grew up, I got more mature in age and in words too. After spending 100 1000 times looking for a way to understand, finally got it. I am not saying anything to win you or something, that's not my Job, I am just empathizing bcos I once was in your place as RC. There is no stoning and killing happening in Christianity for anything bcos we got the new testament revelation from JESUS, ''Love one another as I have loved you". Stoning, killing happens in Muslims, but I am not going to speak on that now. Even, here in US, I know lot of gays and trans, even though I don't agree with them, it doesn't mean I cant live in peace, I tell them the truth but also I treat them as I would treat any straight people. So, I am a believer of the book you hate of OT and NT, but I am nothing like how you describe. So, I don't like these lies, and accusation when people says who believes in Bible are like these, stoning and killing people.

Here I see some gay people who says, being gay is a gift from God! They are as religion as any other Christians! What about that? They go to church, they even do preaching?

OT is in Hebrew and NT is in Greek language the authentic once, so first you have to understand every words according to Hebrew and greek , way of expression, use of words, slangs etc. I had the opportunity to see the DEAD SEA SCROLL 'Ironically' in ''Science Centre" here ,there were people explaining about it and but the visitors were not allowed to touch that bcos it may damage the and it was inside those glass type thing covered. But it was good experience, gave me kind of goosbumps to really see the it in real life with my own naked eyes..haha. :)

Misspurple, I completely agree.

I was raised Lutheran, but went to Catholic school from 3rd grade until graduation. Part of going to Catholic school meant going to church (during school hours), on certain occasions (Easter, Christmas etc), and receiving communion. Because I was not baptized or confirmed in the Catholic religion, I had to go to church, but couldn't receive communion. I was teased relentlessly, told (not only by students but teachers) that I was going to hell because I wasn't Catholic.

My dad was Catholic, my mom Lutheran. They raised me Lutheran because they couldn't marry in the Catholic church unless my mom converted. She refused, so they married in the Lutheran Church, because they weren't as strict.

When my dad informed the priest that they'd be marrying in the Lutheran Church, he was told that he and my mother wouldn't be married in the eyes of God, that they'd be living in sin, and all their children would be bastards in the eyes of the church.

My parents let me experience both their religions. If I had to choose one, it would be Lutheran for sure, but I choose neither. I believe in God, but not one that excludes anyone because of the church they go to, which religion they follow, where they were baptized, etc. etc. In other words, I believe in God, but not religion.

Do you know how to play Euchre? We need a 4th. :)
Awe Alty! I am sure you know that those are lies, what they told you. And you know what's the truth, God is not mad at you. :) I agree with you. It's the relationship with God that's matter and knowing him matters, and obeying him, matters.

Anything in the hands of man can be dangerous... and cruel, and this is verified by history. We can debate whether the books of (ancient) man are the word of god, or inspired by god of whatever name, but in my mind the books written by men are flawed by definition.


It's the relationship with God that's matter and knowing him matters, and obeying him, matters.

Makes sense to me, but what does not is choosing to put men, or a book written by men between you, and the god you come to understand. You do have a choice the direction that relationship takes.

It's the nature of man to seek guidance and be a part of something greater than himself. Even an atheist BELIEVES in SOMETHING. Does it matter what he calls it?

I didn't get, what you are saying here. I respect you my dear. But I didn't asked you to by heart anything in my post. And when did I say that those liviticus scriptures is not there. I just said, don't just read one section of it, read whole and read about he purpose of these scriptures.
I respect your beliefs but it doesn't mean I cant defend my beliefs! Right! :-)

I know how you feel!I Already knew it bcos, It say, ''In the last days, The Love will grow Cold''. Sigh! But still end is not here yet!



Ditto! Story of my life. I am happy I am not alone. Lol

Precious7 I responded to this part of one of your previous answers:


I have an answer surprise surprise! I can give you answer for 1- 10 if you insist, and for now I will give you short onne- Go and read the word by yourself, read it in its context, why it is written, it it what god needs, is it what's HIS true nature? know the purpose why it was written for, without any biased judgement, read it with other several scripture which talks about it. And read it with open heart. Read it without choose and pick attitude etc etc!

As I said Ignorance leads to destruction, ''My people perish bcos they don't know me''.

You assumed that I read the Bible with bias, but I really didn't, I read it when I was still a Christian. I remember talking with my father about it, who died as a Christian years later and he even said that there are a lot of cruel barbaric things in the Bible. You say ignorance leads to destruction, but there is no ignorance here. I used to believe the same way as Wondergirl does: those cruel barbaric rules, were for cruel barbaric times. But now I say, God created those cruel barbaric times, if he is all powerful that is his choice. And if he would exist, I would resent him for that. I would resent him for creating homosexuals and then allow people to call them an abomination, for creating shrimps and shellfish, but then allowing people to kill each other for eating them, for allowing forcing the victims of rape to marry their rapist, and in my own life, for creating me as an autistic person and then giving me parents that were so selfish, that they couldn't handle it at all and were really awful parents to me!

I lost my faith when I was 36 years old, a mature adult and since then, everything that I discovered and that happened to me, only confirmed it. I got my autism diagnosis when I was already an atheist, but it was only an confirmation, that if there is a God out there, he is a cruel creator, for creating me like this and then putting me in a cruel world like this, that is especially cruel on autistic people. That is why I emphatise with the LGBT so much, just like I can't help being autistic, they can't help being LGBT.

Why was it never corrected then?

The old testament, i.e. the Torah, was in Hebrew, that was translated initially to Greek (If I recall correctly) when the new testament was being transcribed and then canonized in the 3rd/fourth century. During this time Every time a copy of a bible was made it was transcribed from an original. More often then not it was transcribed perfectly, but if a type was put in, it probably wouldn't have been caught or recognized. Then when a new bible was transcribed from that one, it would have the error. Half of it is realizing that there was no standard for copying, there is no proofing/editing/etc.

Then the bible was translated to Latin, and I think it stayed in Latin for a while. Also keep in mind that when someone powerful commissioned a copy of a bible they might ask for "clarification" in certain areas. As rigid as the bible is, it is still a plastic thing. So errors, or particular slants were put in, and they stayed in. It wasn't until the bible was able to be mass produced that the text solidified and stay consistent. That was the 16th century if I am not mistaken. You have 1200 years where the bible was being hand copied and only available to the monastic caste. Everyone else, unless REALLY rich, had a copy.

A big problem when translating languages as well is that subtleties are hard to convert. There might be different meanings that are used that don't correspond to the original text. For example in Gensis when they're talking about a serpent tempting Eve. What do they mean by serpent? Snake? The devil? An evil entity? When translating the text it could mean MANY different things. This is why it is hard to accept the texts as historical documents. That is besides the point. If you want a book that is most faithful to the word of god, go with the Quoran (Christianity the Next Generation, or Judaism - The revenge!). To it's myth the angels came down and told Mohammed, "Hey dude! Write this down! It's the real s**t!" and spouted off their holy book. It was written in Arabic and has largely stayed in Arabic. When translated it is translated from the Arabic, it is a much more reliable copy.

Getting back to the topic at hand. There are a couple things that are central to a person and their core beliefs. Faith is a huge one. It is something personal that describes how they interpret reality and deal with the world. It is something that is so personal that it affects your life from it's very foundations. When that faith is threatened you will protect it, violently if required. It is the person and not religion. It comes down to what I originally said, Religion isn't dangerous people are.

Okey, I hope you understand by this example, bcos you like it. =
My name is Khan and I am not terrosist! You though about it, that's why you liked tis film! Right?
Now= I am Christian "Army of the Lord'' as you said but I am not... I am not the way you describes it, I am not like how you portray a Christian people to be.

And in those days... ''Love will grow cold''! Sigh!

Like I told you before: I know that Christians are just like Muslims, just people. They aren't all terrorist, but they aren't all good as well. They are all individuals and there are good and bad among all of them.

There are lots of Christians that I admire and respect: Wondergirl, Obama, Bono from U2, Dr. Phil, Oprah, Nelson Mandela.

In case you missed it, I am autistic. One of the traits of autism is that I look at the world in a very rational, logical way. You can compare me to Sheldon from The Big Bang Theory, I am not as weird as he is, but I have a lot of the same ideas and reasoning. Believing in God is a form of magical thinking and I just can't go along with that, being a down to earth, rational, logical being. When I finally got diagnosed, so much things in my life, finally made sense, it even explained how I, as someone from a religious background, had trouble believing in God. If you want to know more about the correlation between atheism and autism you can read this article:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/psyched/201205/does-autism-lead-atheism

But really. I respect people of all walks of life, of all races and of all religions. I just don't believe in God. Just because I have a different opinion on God and the Bible than you have, doesn't mean I don't respect you. I don't know enough about you yet, to already have an opinion on you. All that I do know, is that I am getting really irritated that you are calling me ignorant. I am not calling you ignorant am I? I am only saying that I have different experiences than you do and that those led to another conclusion. I have had a lot of dscussions with theists on the internet and it all boils down to this: there is no scientific proof for God's existence. As long as that doesn't exist, it is just a waste of time to try to concince me or a lot of other atheists (in The Netherlands there are more than 8,5 million of us) that he exists.

Stephen Fry isn't the only European atheist. Richard Dawkins is also English and so is John Cleese, another famous atheist. Monty Python would never had made Life of Brian if they were devote Christians and the church did call that movie blasphemy when it came out, 36 years ago already!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5gm9hoTw6Y

Here is a part of the discussion after the movie Life of Brian, in which John Cleese tries to explain that the movie wasn't made to ridicule Jesus, but only to l stimulate people to critially think about religion.

In this clip you can see, that they really didn't wanted to ridicule Jesus in this movie, that thought crossed their minds, but they decided that Jesus just wasn't ridiculous enough, so they came up with Brian, someone who doesn't deserve as much respect as Jesus did:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ni559bHXDg

I also love Star Trek and Gene Roddenberry (an atheist) on purpose used Start Trek to make people think about things like racism, religion etc. I think that maybe Star Trek was the first atheist production that indeed challenged me to think about lifes questions, including religion. It also dealt with themes like euthanasia, homosexuality etc. I really loved those shows and all the themes that it made me think about.

Here is a very interesting excerpt from a documentary about the difference between the religious US south and northern Europe, you can see the shock that a Georgia minister has when he visits Northern Europe. And remember, The Netherlands are even more secular than Northern Europe is! I live in a totally different world than you do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuDqEGlKOus

Over the years I have spend days and days watching clips like these, so I am really not ignorant, but well informed.

Like I told you earlier, John Lennon is also one of my atheist idols. You can't seriously say that all these famous atheists, John Cleese, John Lennon, Stephen Fry, Gene Roddenberry are all ignorant.

There are even famous American atheists: Mark Zuckerberg, John Malkovich, Brad Pitt, Jos Whedon, the already mentioned Gene Roddenberry, you don't call them ignorant do you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_atheists

Here you can see for yourself how much smart, well educated famous people are atheists. There really is no reason to equate atheism with ignorism. Not in my specific case, and not in general.

Precious7 I responded to this part of one of your previous answers:



You assumed that I read the Bible with bias, but I really didn't, I read it when I was still a Christian. I remember talking with my father about it, who died as a Christian years later and he even said that there are a lot of cruel barbaric things in the Bible. You say ignorance leads to destruction, but there is no ignorance here. I used to believe the same way as Wondergirl does: those cruel barbaric rules, were for cruel barbaric times. But now I say, God created those cruel barbaric times, if he is all powerful that is his choice. And if he would exist, I would resent him for that. I would resent him for creating homosexuals and then allow people to call them an abomination, for creating shrimps and shellfish, but then allowing people to kill each other for eating them, for allowing forcing the victims of rape to marry their rapist, and in my own life, for creating me as an autistic person and then giving me parents that were so selfish, that they couldn't handle it at all and were really awful parents to me!

I lost my faith when I was 36 years old, a mature adult and since then, everything that I discovered and that happened to me, only confirmed it. I got my autism diagnosis when I was already an atheist, but it was only an confirmation, that if there is a God out there, he is a cruel creator, for creating me like this and then putting me in a cruel world like this, that is especially cruel on autistic people. That is why I emphatise with the LGBT so much, just like I can't help being autistic, they can't help being LGBT.


Mpp77, God did not make Bruce Jenner a women, god did not make Gay, Most important here is He has not created You autistic, but I am so sorry! :(. He has not put you in a family. It was your family decision to behave like that. That's a lie Mp77. I also had bad experience with my fam, but I know its not god who told them to do like this me. It was my family's own decision, unknowingly, In someplace they were needed to get educated about that particular matter or sometimes it was just how they were raised by their own parents, so they learned it and treated me that way. Peace. :)
Okey,

At this point MP77 I have to ask :

1 - What proof do you desire that would satisfy you that there is a god?

2 - What expectations do you have of the god that you imagine to be ?

Precious7 I responded to this part of one of your previous answers:



You assumed that I read the Bible with bias, but I really didn't, I read it when I was still a Christian. I remember talking with my father about it, who died as a Christian years later and he even said that there are a lot of cruel barbaric things in the Bible. You say ignorance leads to destruction, but there is no ignorance here. I used to believe the same way as Wondergirl does: those cruel barbaric rules, were for cruel barbaric times. But now I say, God created those cruel barbaric times, if he is all powerful that is his choice. And if he would exist, I would resent him for that. I would resent him for creating homosexuals and then allow people to call them an abomination, for creating shrimps and shellfish, but then allowing people to kill each other for eating them, for allowing forcing the victims of rape to marry their rapist, and in my own life, for creating me as an autistic person and then giving me parents that were so selfish, that they couldn't handle it at all and were really awful parents to me!

I lost my faith when I was 36 years old, a mature adult and since then, everything that I discovered and that happened to me, only confirmed it. I got my autism diagnosis when I was already an atheist, but it was only an confirmation, that if there is a God out there, he is a cruel creator, for creating me like this and then putting me in a cruel world like this, that is especially cruel on autistic people. That is why I emphatise with the LGBT so much, just like I can't help being autistic, they can't help being LGBT.

The issue is, that most people miss the most important issue, God created the earth and people perfect. That was Eden (or what ever the name you may use). At that time, there was no illness, no sickness, nothing. We have no idea how many years, or centuries, this perfect world happened. But it did not last because God gave free will to people. The Bible is clear, that God will come again, to bring his people back to him, but for now, Earth is under the control of Satan, (the devil or again what ever you wish to call him) Christians are as said, a stranger in a strange land. As was the Hebrew nation of the OT. Jesus came and lived in a almost Godless society. He knew that people were sinners and that most would never accept him.

Man's evil has allowed all of the sin, all of the illness and all of the pain, to happen in the world.

The Muslims, as mentioned in a few of the others post, are actually the closest to the Christian religion, than almost any of the others, because they accept and teach Jesus virgin birth, and even accept Jesus as a great prophet. (just not the son of God) And they accept the first part of what we call the bible.

So God watches, and intervenes at times, why he does not always ? The bible shows he does not, always when we want, That is why the Hebrew nation was slaves for so long and why there is such suffering.

God also does not promise riches and great life to Christians, in fact he says there may be suffering, pain and death. None of his 12, retired rich to a ocean villa, but most suffered a painful death.

The issue is, why does anyone think, or believe we were ever suppose to be one large happy family.

Simple answer: fear.

Simple answer: fear.

Can you elaborate! Sorry! I didn't get it! :(

Being the three largest Genocides ever recorded where committed by atheists, Stain, Mao and Pol Pot... that's proof that religion isn't a threat... its people that are the threat.

@Palmer... have you given thought to use your experiences to help others who might have gone through, or who are currently going through, the same type of situations?

You ask why did you have to have those experiences, perhaps you haven't found the reason yet... you may not come to an understanding in your lifetime, but perhaps you will for some. It is often the difficult, tragic times that prove to be the catalyst for great compassion and humanitarian efforts.

Palmer Eldritch!
We want to hear from you also! Did you get the answer what you are looking for?

Religion was originally a way to unite people, through hard times. Today it is portrayed differently due to the mass population of each religion's believers and their undying need to prove their religion is superior. All it really takes in this life is to understand that religion is a name for good habits and moral guidelines set up by our ancestors.

Religion exists to serve two purposes. The first is to explain things that cannot be proven via science. The second is to get people to follow a morality in a social world.

The thing is more people have been harmed for the sake of religion, then almost any other cause (see the Crusades, the Inquisition, Jihads, and many more).

Mpp77, God did not make Bruce Jenner a women, god did not make Gay, Most important here is He has not created You autistic, but I am so sorry! :(. He has not put you in a family. It was your family decision to behave like that. That's a lie Mp77. I also had bad experience with my fam, but I know its not god who told them to do like this me. It was my family's own decision, unknowingly, In someplace they were needed to get educated about that particular matter or sometimes it was just how they were raised by their own parents, so they learned it and treated me that way. Peace. :)
Okey,

Are you saying that gay people have a choice, to be gay or straight? Are you saying that those that feel they were born in the wrong body, the wrong sex, are wrong? Do you know their struggle? Do you think they live their lives that way because it's easy, or to get attention? If so, you are very misinformed.

I do agree that people behave the way they want to, and if parents aren't good parents, that's their choice. But to say that God didn't create gay people, is ignorant, and insulting. If God created everyone, than he created gays, he created transgender, he created those that abuse, he created everyone, even those you don't like and don't agree with. You can't only credit him with what you consider to be good.

You're picking and choosing, after telling us not to pick through the bible, you pick through humanity and choose what you like and don't like, what you accept and don't accept. That's not what God is about!


Religion exists to serve two purposes. The first is to explain things that cannot be proven via science. The second is to get people to follow a morality in a social world.

The thing is more people have been harmed for the sake of religion, then almost any other cause (see the Crusades, the Inquisition, Jihads, and many more).

Amen!

Don't get me wrong I don't Hate Gay or Trans or anyone. I respect them as a person but it doesn't mean I have to say ''yes and amen'' to all the things they do!!

Are you saying that gay people have a choice, to be gay or straight? Are you saying that those that feel they were born in the wrong body, the wrong sex, are wrong? Do you know their struggle? Do you think they live their lives that way because it's easy, or to get attention? If so, you are very misinformed.
Everything with those '''question marks''! You are saying it, I am not the one who said it! You are the one who are just assuming that I am saying like that! I am not saying how they feel, I am not saying that it is what Gay people are doing, they are just for attention etc etc. Nope!!
But I know that God did not told them to do this or ''made'' them or initiated any ''feeling like women" thing inside them. For example, I don't think so that God 'Made' Catylin Jenner and put her in the body of a Male Bruce Jenner! But it doesn't mean that I hate these gay people, I too have friend who are trans and Gay. If I don't accept their Ideas it doesn't mean I don't accept them generally as a person. Anyhow, this THREAD is NOT about LGBT people so I don't want to comment anymore.


But to say that God didn't create gay people, is ignorant, and insulting
This is more insulting to God saying that God is the one who made gay and Trans. If you say you believe in God and say this thing then you are ignorant not me!
Do you think this that the Characteristic of GOD? That he talks about the abomination of 'man sleeping with man' But secretly somewhere he is manufacturing the Man and he puts the desire of sleeping with man?
I am sure God created every single Human being but It is the same 'choice of people', if people wants to behave out of over emotion, or their own will and way. Just like how people choose religion and also chose to satisfy their own ''agenda'' out of it, by destroying their own fellow human being.


You can't only credit him with what you consider to be good.
Actually I can do it. That's the right thing to do. Its not like.. Ohh! I should also give all the credits for all the bad stuff happen to me in my life to God only. I can Credit Him for the good things. And the bad things which happened, I know that happened because It was me who reacted out of emotion or it was the consequences of my decision and disobedience.
I think You really have a bad Impression of God. God is out of all this ''BAD'' . He is ''Incorruptible'' Period. No man have any right to tell Him that We should also credit him for all the bad things, as we credit him for good. The people who says like this are the people, who Just say from their mouth ''that they believe in God'' but their heart is Far away.

[QUOTE][You're picking and choosing, after telling us not to pick through the bible, you pick through humanity and choose what you like and don't like, what you accept and don't accept. That's not what God is about!
/QUOTE]
Hello,
First of all I didn't even talk to You 'Alty' about 'picking and Choosing' but I don't know why you took it and came after me.
Anyway, whatever most of my words which I said, its not my words but It came from the Word of GOD itself. So I don't think so I am choosing and picking, If you say so show me where I did! I am more then happy to talk about it :)! And If you have any problem tell to God not me. God says all this in His word. I am Just repeating it. I am backing up all my saying with the word of God while Its You and Mp77 who is saying things out of Your own Likes and dislikes, out of your own feelings what you feel for LGBT or what You feel about your problems. Its not MY likes and dislikes its is Written in the word of God. But I am not, I said what's written in there!
I also have tribulations in life but I know for sure its not God but actually it is the consequences of the things I did, or consequences of behaving actually opposite to what God told me to do.

But I know that God did not told them to do this or ''made'' them or initiated any ''feeling like women" thing inside them. For example, I don't think so that God 'Made' Catylin Jenner and put her in the body of a Male Bruce Jenner!

This is more insulting to God saying that God is the one who made gay and Trans. If you say you believe in God and say this thing then you are ignorant not me!

Really? Have you really thought this through? I gather you believe that God created humans, correct? So if God created humans, then God had to have also created the possibility and potential for humans to be homosexual or the possibility and potential for someone to feel they are the wrong gender. And this is not about just that. God must have also created the possibility and potential for people to be evil as well. And yes I understand the concept of free will. But if the possibility exists that someone can feel the urge to do evil, or attraction to someone of the same sex or fee trapped in the wrong sex, then God had to allow for it. Otherwise, you are saying that God is flawed and made and allowed mistakes.

God is not flawed, but it was because of Adam, that sin entered into the Human being Life.

Could man also be flawed and not understand the word?

God is not flawed, but it was because of Adam, that sin entered into the Human being Life.

So if God is not flawed, then he created sin and gave man the potential for sin. You can't have it both ways.

Could man also be flawed and not understand the word?
Man has, often for his own benefit, mistranslated and misinterpreted and even deliberately changed God's Word.

Life style is a choice no matter what orientation you have. There are some who won't entertain the suggestion that they can choose the way they live. You can be heddenous or you can not. Self control is the question

Lifestyle may be a choice, orientation is not.

Religion is a choice,

Religion is a choice,

So is suicide.

--

A point about Judaism, and all it's child religions (Christianity, LDS, Islam, etc.): Man cannot know God's mind. Which is to say that NO ONE, Not Pope Francis, or Moses, Or Crazy Bill down the street with the sign that says the end is Neigh, can say, "God said kill heathens", or "God didn't make him gay". No man can speak for God. No woman either. Consider that God created all this stuff. Mind blown already. Consider what he needed to know and do to bring the universe and all it's wonders into existence. From stars, to planets, to nebula, to bacteria, mice, dinosaurs, and you and me. Our smartest people are like bacteria to God. It is Pride and Arrogance to sit here and say, "God didn't make bruce Jenner Trans sexual." Inexcusable.

What we can gather from the bible is that God created sin to test us and allow us to grow as righteous people. All the evil and destruction in the world is there so that the faithful can confront it and make the world better. Considering that Bruce Jenner was part of his plan and was put forth to test your tolerance and your love. To inspire christianity as a whole to reconsider it's bigotry and hate. Queers could be here to help you grow as a person and to accept everyone as they are. If I am not mistaken this is the main thrust of most holy books.

I like how Bill said it best: "Be excellent to each other."

Considering that Bruce Jenner was part of his plan and was put forth to test your tolerance and your love. To inspire christianity as a whole to reconsider it's bigotry and hate. Queers could be here to help you grow as a person and to accept everyone as they are.

Applause Applause Applause!!

Very well said. In fact, so well said, I can't and won't add anything more.

So is suicide.

--

A point about Judaism, and all it's child religions (Christianity, LDS, Islam, etc.): Man cannot know God's mind. Which is to say that NO ONE, Not Pope Francis, or Moses, Or Crazy Bill down the street with the sign that says the end is Neigh, can say, "God said kill heathens", or "God didn't make him gay". No man can speak for God. No woman either. Consider that God created all this stuff. Mind blown already. Consider what he needed to know and do to bring the universe and all it's wonders into existence. From stars, to planets, to nebula, to bacteria, mice, dinosaurs, and you and me. Our smartest people are like bacteria to God. It is Pride and Arrogance to sit here and say, "God didn't make bruce Jenner Trans sexual." Inexcusable.

What we can gather from the bible is that God created sin to test us and allow us to grow as righteous people. All the evil and destruction in the world is there so that the faithful can confront it and make the world better. Considering that Bruce Jenner was part of his plan and was put forth to test your tolerance and your love. To inspire christianity as a whole to reconsider it's bigotry and hate. Queers could be here to help you grow as a person and to accept everyone as they are. If I am not mistaken this is the main thrust of most holy books.

I like how Bill said it best: "Be excellent to each other."

God is faithful to His Word, he is not in two minds. Every abomination we have on this Earth, every degeneracy, is the result of man wanting to be like God and deciding his own rules. We are still trying to build that stairway to heaven paving it with good intentions, we have some basic rules we still haven't learned to live within the boundries of, and you want to consider LGBT as another lesson. We can't even agree on following the first rule, until we succeed in getting that one right I cannot see advance in other areas, and please remember this is why we have Jesus, because God knows we are not going to get it right on our own

God is faithful to His Word, he is not in two minds. Every abomination we have on this Earth, every degeneracy, is the result of man wanting to be like God and deciding his own rules. We are still trying to build that stairway to heaven paving it with good intentions, we have some basic rules we still haven't learned to live within the boundries of, and you want to consider LGBT as another lesson. We can't even agree on following the first rule, until we succeed in getting that one right I cannot see advance in other areas, and please remember this is why we have Jesus, because God knows we are not going to get it right on our own

This is why I'm a Deist. If the God you describe wants us to "get it right" and gave us Jesus to help, then why did he allow us the ability to get it wrong in the first place? The logic of that escapes me. And yes I understand this is not an issue of logic but faith. Sorry I don't do things on faith.

Perhaps you could tell us how Jesus dealt with gay people and maybe we can see your point Clete.

Please tell me you're not justifying homophobia because Christians are still Murdering their fellow man? I honestly hope you're saying that we should stone queers because Christians haven't grown enough towards the divine because it is certainly sounding like you're saying, "Well if humanity was better at the ten commandments then we could accept those people with non-standard sexual orientation, but we haven't so lets pray them straight."

Chasing the divine isn't a check list. You don't sequentially go through the commandments, the 10 big ones and others in the Torah and New Testament, and say, "well I haven't perfected the taking god's name in vain so I am not going to worry about perfecting the adultery or murder thing." That type of thinking is what is keep a lot of the christian churches and faiths archaic.


God is faithful to His Word, he is not in two minds. Every abomination we have on this Earth, every degeneracy, is the result of man wanting to be like God and deciding his own rules. We are still trying to build that stairway to heaven paving it with good intentions, we have some basic rules we still haven't learned to live within the boundries of, and you want to consider LGBT as another lesson. We can't even agree on following the first rule, until we succeed in getting that one right I cannot see advance in other areas, and please remember this is why we have Jesus, because God knows we are not going to get it right on our own

The problem is that we don't have his word. In the Judeo-Christian world you don't have a reliable word of god. The old testament, i.e. the Torah, Is a book that was edited and fluid until the 5th century BCE ish. It wasn't given to the Jews by God, it isn't the word of God. The new testament wasn't cannonized until the third or fourth century CE, at least 300 years after Christ died. During that time it was passed through the church from person to person. Even afterwards it has been translated so many times that it can't even be considered the gospels. As "unbiased" as each translator was, or claimed to be, they're interpreting what was said and putting it into another language. The subtleties of one language don't translate well into another. Just ask Fr_chuck about that one.

The closest thing to the real word of God we have is the Quran. When the angel came down and said, "Hey Grab a pen I am about to read the word of god to you from my book up here." Mohammed wrote it down. I believe the arabic texts of the Quran are faithful, or at least as faithful as they can be after 1400 years. IT isn't as bad as the bible or torah but it isn't perfect. You have then the book of Mormon, but those are a little suspect.

We don't have the word of god. There is no way to make any claims about the mind of god or the intentions of god. He could be of two minds. He could be helping us as a world grow. Right now it is a tool to justify your bigotry. I hate using this but what would Jesus say? "Love thy Neighbor!" you said, "He likes getting his bum diddled by other men. Leviticus says that's not cool so I hate him because he is an abomination." He replys, "God is the only one that could judge them, it isn't your place. Just love your neighbor."

Personally, I think Government is much more dangerous than religion. At least I do know, for certain, that my God, did not create ISIS.

At least I do know, for certain, that my God, did not create ISIS.

And Government did? Clearly your god is not Allah, because ISIS is a religious organization.

And Government did? Clearly your god is not Allah, because ISIS is a religious organization.
Humans created ISIS. Allah or God had nothing to do with it, meaning how humans decided to interpret their god's words.

Clearly ISIS is an example of dangerous religion, and humans using the name of God to justify BAD behavior.

Oh, you must mot have heard.



And Government did? Clearly your god is not Allah, because ISIS is a religious organization.

If there is but ONE God, then changing the name means NOTHING.

Humans created ISIS.This seems to be the default answer to anything that appears negative concerning religion. It goes like this:
<bad thing happens> --> people have free will, it has nothing to do with god
<good thing happens> --> "Praise (insert your god here)!"

No one sees anything wrong here?

No one sees anything wrong here?

Religious beliefs are not rational, they are based on faith, not established fact or logic.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not putting down the power of faith. it is very strong and if having that faith helps then I'm all for it. But one needs to recognize that it is based on faith.

This seems to be the default answer to anything that appears negative concerning religion. It goes like this:
<bad thing happens> --> people have free will, it has nothing to do with god
<good thing happens> --> "Praise (insert your god here)!"

No one sees anything wrong here?

Karma you have a negative opinion because of the reports you have heard but you have not experienced God otherwise you would not conduct your campaign against belief but as you say people have free will, even the most religious of us get it wrong sometimes. Not everything in this world has a rational explanation

I don't have a negative opinion, I have the default opinion. No one is religious unless they are taught to be.
And how does one "experience" god?

Forget it NK, Clete doesn't even know what Jesus said about gay people...

Forget it NK, Clete doesn't even know what Jesus said about gay people...
Actually, He didn't say anything about them.

Actually, He didn't say anything about them.

Except the global,. gee wouldn't it be nice if you all were nice to each other?

If there is but ONE God, then changing the name means NOTHING.


Why would one think there is only one god. (not God) even in the Bible, it tells us not to have other gods before the "One True God".

If you take the stories in the old Testament, and if you believe they are true, not just stories, we see Moses before the King of Egypt and the King's magicians were able to do some of the things Moses did. Where did their power come from?

We see warnings of witchcraft and examples of people who spoke with spirits in he Bible.


I don't have a negative opinion, I have the default opinion. No one is religious unless they are taught to be.
And how does one "experience" god?

I will disagree, everyone is religious, unless because of their own beliefs in themselves and man's education, they attempt to become the god.

Even in remote places with tribes that have no outside contact, they develop a religion based on something, the sun, or moon, or the earth. Religion is a basic human instinct to know that there is more to life than just what is seen.

Even those that do not believe they have a god, do, they in fact become their own god, because that is where their faith lies.


Forget it NK, Clete doesn't even know what Jesus said about gay people...

Jesus really did not say much about gays, since within the Jewish population at the time, it was not a really big issue, He did not talk about cars, or cell phones or internet either.

He did visit sinners but he never accepted their sin. In fact, when they (if they) repented, he told them to go and sin no more.

Peoples issues today, they want the sin accepted. Jesus never said, wow, you can be forgiven without repenting. People do not want to repent, they want to be saved with Jesus changing, not them.

I will disagree, everyone is religiousAnd I will also disagree. It's akin to racism in babies: babies don't care what colour skin their playmates are.. racism is a learned trait. Religion is the same way: babies don't care or know one iota about religion until they are indoctrinated into it.

The argument that not having a belief automatically means that they believe they are their own gods is a laughable position - they couldn't care less about gods either way LOL.


Even in remote places with tribes that have no outside contact, they develop a religion based on something, the sun, or moon, or the earth.Yes, because of their ignorance, they use something to explain events they don't understand.

Funny how it's the Atheists that get their panties in the biggest knots over something they think doesn't exist.


Makes you wonder if they get this excitable about other things that in their mind, don't exist either... and why?

You should see how they go off, about Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

So religious people are Ignorant, and only those people who have no religious belief are educated. Can we really look at bigotry? Which in a way proves a point, that at some point people believe they are "all" there is, and that man is the supreme being. Is this not making man their god?

Funny how it's the Atheists that get their panties in the biggest knots over something they think doesn't exist.


Makes you wonder if they get this excitable about other things that in their mind, don't exist either... and why?

You should see me rant and rave about The Leaf's chances on getting to the playoffs this year.

Honestly we're living in a dramatic period in time where having no faith is acceptable. It is hard to deal with the concept of another person not having the faith that you do. The bonds of community for the longest time were based on faith. It would be the glue that held the town together. No you will drive into a town that has 15 churches for each flavour of religion.

The fundamental reason that any faithful person, be it atheist or not, gets their hackles up is being told they're wrong. Being Atheist I have had many discussions, including with a catholic girl friend who was certain that I was going to hell because I didn't believe, with the devout and they've been heated on either side.

Which is to say: It's not just us bub.

You should see how they go off, about Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

So religious people are Ignorant, and only those people who have no religious belief are educated. Can we really look at bigotry? Which in a way proves a point, that at some point people believe they are "all" there is, and that man is the supreme being. Is this not making man their god?

Hhhmmmm... The gifts I just wrapped for my kids that are from Santa... or the boxes of easter stuff I have in my closet. While this is akin to shouting, "Not All Men" at a rape survivors meeting, I have to say that it is so bloody irritating the assumptions that people make because of your faith.

You're painting some incredibly large strokes there chuck. Very bigoted strokes as well. People are smart, regardless of their faith. It is when people do not understand faith that some will look down on others with disdain. It is what the Europeans did with the Natives in the Americas, Australia, Africa, and anyplace where the technological level of the society wasn't close to theirs. Right now the same thing is happening between Atheists and Theists without the understanding of how meaningless the fight actually is.

Honestly Chuck, I believe in myself. I figure someone has to. Doesn't mean I am a god, I am just a man. Same as you.

You should see me rant and rave about The Leaf's chances on getting to the playoffs this year.

Honestly we're living in a dramatic period in time where having no faith is acceptable. It is hard to deal with the concept of another person not having the faith that you do. The bonds of community for the longest time were based on faith. It would be the glue that held the town together. No you will drive into a town that has 15 churches for each flavour of religion.

The fundamental reason that any faithful person, be it atheist or not, gets their hackles up is being told they're wrong. Being Atheist I have had many discussions, including with a catholic girl friend who was certain that I was going to hell because I didn't believe, with the devout and they've been heated on either side.

Which is to say: It's not just us bub.
So...

If you are right... nobody will ever know because everything ends shortly after your last heartbeat...

If we are right... well... it gets ugly for you. As far as I'm concerned it was a choice you made. And you made it knowing the options such as almost every other choice you make as an adult. I don't lose any sleep over it. I'm no missionary.

I also find it unfathomable how Atheists are so quick to defend Muslims who have a VERY long history of killing anyone who does not convert to their way of thinking, and continue to do so daily because Atheists aren't exempt from their wrath.

We don't have a recent history of that being the case with other religions.

So...

If you are right... nobody will ever know because everything ends shortly after your last heartbeat...

If we are right... well... it gets ugly for you. As far as I'm concerned it was a choice you made. And you made it knowing the options such as almost every other choice you make as an adult. I don't lose any sleep over it. I'm no missionary.

I also find it unfathomable how Atheists are so quick to defend Muslims who have a VERY long history of killing anyone who does not convert to their way of thinking, and continue to do so daily. And Atheists aren't exempt from their wrath.

We don't have a recent history of that being the case with other religions.

The thing is smoothy, I don't know. I have been questioning my faith a LOT over the last few years, and yes Atheists can have crises of faith. I have contemplate oblivion, just not existing after my last breath and nothing has scared me more in life. I don't have the comfort of reincarnation, or heaven, or what not on those cold winter nights when all I have to think about is this.

This is the common argument that comes up that I am so very tired of. I will say, "Prove to me that there is an afterlife" you will say, "Prove that there isn't" I will say, "There is no evidence to support that calim", you will say, "There is ton in my holy book with JC came down and laid down the real deal." I will say, "You can't trust that, it doesn't stand up to scientific scruinity." You will say, "It doesn't have to it is a matter of faith." I will say, "Faith is something that you can quantify." etc. ad nauesum. Can we put it down as being said?

I don't know why it is perceived that we defend Muslims so quickly. Maybe it is because we're both oppressed by the vast majority of Christians? We feel a commardary because we're both attacked up on by the church. As well, Islam is a religion of peace and acceptance, in the same way that the Christian faith is. You scream ISIS, I will scream IRA, Witch Trials, and a thousands other examples of christians killing those who won't convert. You're not without sin. Don't throw stones.

This is were it gets dirty, Smoothy. I don't want to go there.

The thing is smoothy, I don't know. I have been questioning my faith a LOT over the last few years, and yes Atheists can have crises of faith. I have contemplate oblivion, just not existing after my last breath and nothing has scared me more in life. I don't have the comfort of reincarnation, or heaven, or what not on those cold winter nights when all I have to think about is this.

This is the common argument that comes up that I am so very tired of. I will say, "Prove to me that there is an afterlife" you will say, "Prove that there isn't" I will say, "There is no evidence to support that calim", you will say, "There is ton in my holy book with JC came down and laid down the real deal." I will say, "You can't trust that, it doesn't stand up to scientific scruinity." You will say, "It doesn't have to it is a matter of faith." I will say, "Faith is something that you can quantify." etc. ad nauesum. Can we put it down as being said?

I don't know why it is perceived that we defend Muslims so quickly. Maybe it is because we're both oppressed by the vast majority of Christians? We feel a commardary because we're both attacked up on by the church. As well, Islam is a religion of peace and acceptance, in the same way that the Christian faith is. You scream ISIS, I will scream IRA, Witch Trials, and a thousands other examples of christians killing those who won't convert. You're not without sin. Don't throw stones.

This is were it gets dirty, Smoothy. I don't want to go there.
I don't know how or where ANYONE can claim Islam is the religion of Peace... when they have a history of oppressing to the point of death, any other faith that exists in any place they are a majority. And the history of that is WELL over 1,000 years. IN fact they have never been either accommodating or friendly towards any other faith anywhere once they aggregate in sufficient numbers to be able to impose their will by force. They also aren't any more friendly towards Atheists either.

And the incidents of that are greater by order of magnitude than any transgressions by Christians or any other faith.

Also Atheism isn't exactly peace loving on it's own either. The three greatest Genocides/mass murders in recorded history have occurred in the last century by Atheists. Namely Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot. (hundreds of millions killed between them) So there is no moral high ground in a lack of faith either.

What's that saying....when you are pointing at someone or something...there are four other fingers pointing back at you?

Lots to go around on ALL sides. But there is something to be said about learning from mistakes and moving on. How long ago were the Salem Witch trials....the Spanish Inquisition? What's happening in the name of Islam right now in various parts of the world?

Just because you claim Christians have figured it out, doesn't mean others won't, nor because you don't chop off heads anymore excuse your treatment of others either, as the protecting of pedophiles in recent years, and the dehumanizing way non Christian natives and minorities of America were and are treated under the policies and rules of this so called Christian nation.

According to YOUR words...


What's that saying....when you are pointing at someone or something...there are four other fingers pointing back at you?

YOU have 4 fingers, and a thumb pointing at YOU. Or did you mean"Do as I say do, not as you see me do."?

I don't know how or where ANYONE can claim Islam is the religion of Peace... when they have a history of oppressing to the point of death, any other faith that exists in any place they are a majority. And the history of that is WELL over 1,000 years. IN fact they have never been either accommodating or friendly towards any other faith anywhere once they aggregate in sufficient numbers to be able to impose their will by force. They also aren't any more friendly towards Atheists either.

And the incidents of that are greater by order of magnitude than any transgressions by Christians or any other faith.

Also Atheism isn't exactly peace loving on it's own either. The three greatest Genocides/mass murders in recorded history have occurred in the last century by Atheists. Namely Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot. (hundreds of millions killed between them) So there is no moral high ground in a lack of faith either.

What's that saying....when you are pointing at someone or something...there are four other fingers pointing back at you?

Lots to go around on ALL sides. But there is something to be said about learning from mistakes and moving on. How long ago were the Salem Witch trials....the Spanish Inquisition? What's happening in the name of Islam right now in various parts of the world?

I never claimed any moral high ground for atheists. What my claim is that all faiths, atheist, christian, Buddhist, muslim, FSM, are folk. You will get the same cross section of people. Hitler was Christian, Stalin was atheist, Saddam was Islamic, and what does that mean? If you're a sociopath then it doesn't matter what any invisible man/flying spaghetti monster you believe in, you can commit genocide and use whatever reasoning you want to justify it.

Smoothy, with the amount you've traveled, I am well and truly surprised that you have seen the peace loving side of the Muslims. Even when I was in and near the islamic side of China it was evident. You can look at the Christians with the same eye and see that they've never been a peace loving community either.

This is the case where you can tell a woman she's beautiful a million times but that one time you say she's not, is the only one she'll remember and the only thing she'll key on. When all you see is death then that's all you're going to think of them.

So religious people are Ignorant, and only those people who have no religious belief are educated.Nope I didn't say that, go back and read it. It's a tool ancient tribes used to ascribe meaning to things they didn't understand.

I never claimed any moral high ground for atheists. What my claim is that all faiths, atheist, christian, Buddhist, muslim, FSM, are folk. You will get the same cross section of people. Hitler was Christian, Stalin was atheist, Saddam was Islamic, and what does that mean? If you're a sociopath then it doesn't matter what any invisible man/flying spaghetti monster you believe in, you can commit genocide and use whatever reasoning you want to justify it.

Smoothy, with the amount you've traveled, I am well and truly surprised that you have seen the peace loving side of the Muslims. Even when I was in and near the islamic side of China it was evident. You can look at the Christians with the same eye and see that they've never been a peace loving community either.

This is the case where you can tell a woman she's beautiful a million times but that one time you say she's not, is the only one she'll remember and the only thing she'll key on. When all you see is death then that's all you're going to think of them.There may be some peace loving Muslims (a minority of them)... but there is no peace in Islam... I've traveled enough and seen enough that I have nothing but proof to back up my feelings.

Nobody can or ever will change my mind on that because I survived a terrorist attack targeted against non-muslims by Muslims in the name of Islam. By coincidence and luck... I am here today. Most people that believe they are peaceful haven't seen what I've seen or experienced what I've experienced. You may or may not remember my having said this previously elsewhere... But I was in that part of the pentagon the entire evening, I was supposed to still be there when the plane hit except I was so agitated and tired I had to get out of there and walked out on my customers (15 minutes before it happened)... something I have never done before or since. The people I worked with all night that night and on a number of occasions previously... now have their names on the Memorial there.

I have no grudges against any other faith (or against Atheists)... because they haven't acted as the Muslims have in my lifetime. I don't hold grudges for what happened before my grandparents were born... Or I would hate the British and others. But the grudge I hold was for actions directed at me specifically and others around me because of Muslim hatred towards non-muslims. There is no better reason to hold a grudge than that... and I am NOT a big enough man to turn the other cheek on someone trying to put a knife in my back. And I have seen little proof Islam as a whole has grown beyond what they were 1,600 years ago. The world has moved on and progressed in many ways, they however for the most part have not.

terrorist attack targeted against non-muslims by Muslims in the name of Islam. By coincidence and luck... I am here today.
radical, fundamentalist males who interpreted the Qur'an literally

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by smoothy https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religious-discussions/religion-dangerous-816783-6.html#post3750627)
terrorist attack targeted against non-muslims by Muslims in the name of Islam. By coincidence and luck... I am here today.



Luck? "But for the grace of God go I". They got the SOB behind that massacre, maybe you should get help to get over it... like we tell so many others that have been traumatized by life changing events.

I don't know how or where ANYONE can claim Islam is the religion of Peace... when they have a history of oppressing to the point of death, any other faith that exists in any place they are a majority.

Have you ever read the Koran? Just because there are Islamic extremists who abuse the teachings of the Koran, doesn't change its basic teachings. As noted, other religious extremists have used the "word of god" to justify a lot of atrocities. It's the main reason I don't believe in organized religion in any form.

And remember, I've had a similar level of luck. I was on the 50th floor of the South Tower when the first plane hit the North Tower. I do not, however, hold it against people of the Islamic faith or Muslims, just against those who use the Koran to justify their unspeakable acts.

What it all comes down to IS faith. Some people have it other don't. If your faith works for you, then more power to you and I'm happy for you. I won't tell you that your faith is wrong, just that it is faith. I see things differently and just as I respect your right to see things differently I expect you to respect mine (and I'm talking globally, not individually).

radical, fundamentalist males who interpreted the Qur'an literallyAnd the MILLIONS who follow and support them make them neither a small number nor insignificant. If we were talking tens or even hundreds it would be different.

And tell that to every religious minority in any majority Muslim nation in the world...you will hear the same things I have said.

The Chicagoland Muslims don't seem to be causing any problem. Most of them have library cards.

The Chicagoland Muslims don't seem to be causing any problem. Most of them have library cards. And what percentage of the local population do they amount to? Certainly not a large enough majority to start calling for Sharia type laws to be enacted. Unlike certain towns in Michigan.

Individually many of them are OK....I wouldn't say otherwise. Its when they amass in large enough numbers that they start trying to impose their will on others that the situation changes..

From what I can find in a quick search, there are more than a half million Muslims in this area. A Muslim school is a few blocks from me, and a pre-K thru gr. 12 school and prayer center (non-profit Islamic Foundation, since 1974) is in the suburb east of me. Many Muslim professionals live in nearby Oak Brook, McDonald's and Beanie Baby world headquarters.

You might find this list interesting -- http://www.aiamasjid.org/aia/chicago-mosques-list.html

But the grudge I hold was for actions directed at me specifically and others around me because of Muslim hatred towards non-muslims. There is no better reason to hold a grudge than that... and I am NOT a big enough man to turn the other cheek on someone trying to put a knife in my back. And I have seen little proof Islam as a whole has grown beyond what they were 1,600 years ago. The world has moved on and progressed in many ways, they however for the most part have not.

Smoothy, I respect you a lot. I know who you are and what you have been through. It is because of that I want to say to nut up and get over it. CaCa happens and you think the faith did it. It didn't. People did it. A organization who was using gurellia tactics to kill as many people as possible. The reasoning they used was from a book and only that. It is asinine to assume that a faith did this. You might not be a bigger person but you're a wiser person. You know better.

Smoothy, I respect you a lot. I know who you are and what you have been through. It is because of that I want to say to nut up and get over it. CaCa happens and you think the faith did it. It didn't. People did it. A organization who was using gurellia tactics to kill as many people as possible. The reasoning they used was from a book and only that. It is asinine to assume that a faith did this. You might not be a bigger person but you're a wiser person. You know better.Fact is THEY haven't gotten over anything for 1,600 years and the oppression they practice against this world continues to this very day.

If it was a one time event or was even limited in scope to several in the past that would be different... the fact is it continues on every continent on earth and even here in the USA... ( and it does happen far more often that you will ever see on a biased media).

If you ignore an ongoing threat... don't be surprised when that threat becomes a reality.

If there were no threats...then why exactly do we have a Dept of Homeland security. We didn't need one before.

I actually do know the answer to that...I wonder how many other people do too.

I'd rather be alive and safe than politically correct.

Fact is MANY Muslims are as paranoid about the radical nut jobs as you are, and with good reason since in fact they have killed, and oppressed more of their own than they have others.

They are NUTS and so are their sheep followers. It's sad my friend, that as your friend you allow them to make you so paranoid, which is their whole strategy to begin with. At least with you they have WON! A man of your intellect and experience should know that, so why do you feed your own hate and fear?

Fact is MANY Muslims are as paranoid about the radical nut jobs as you are, and with good reason since in fact they have killed, and oppressed more of their own than they have others.

They are NUTS and so are their sheep followers. It's sad my friend, that as your friend you allow them to make you so paranoid, which is their whole strategy to begin with. At least with you they have WON! A man of your intellect and experience should know that, so why do you feed your own hate and fear?

Its not paranoia when they actually ARE out to get you... and they have openly said this ad nauseum. If you had any idea how many terrorist plots the government has discovered and stopped before they could be carried out you would see my point. One out of every 50 actually are reported on the news. Its far more common than most people know.

They don't make me paranoid... they give me reason to not trust their words on motives in general as a group. Which means they aren't flying under the radar for those smart enough to be watching. And they ARE on the Radar for the Government. Does that make them paranoid too?

Tell that to the Coptic Christians, the Jews and every other religious group on earth that are being systematically persecuted and singled out by the Muslims on the planet that they are just being paranoid too.

Muslims aren't the victim class....they are the perpetrators. They have managed to dupe a lot of people.

Its not paranoia when they actually ARE out to get you... and they have openly said this ad nauseum. If you had any idea how many terrorist plots the government has discovered and stopped before they could be carried out you would see my point. One out of every 50 actually are reported on the news. Its far more common than most people know.

They don't make me paranoid... they give me reason to not trust their words on motives in general as a group. Which means they aren't flying under the radar for those smart enough to be watching. And they ARE on the Radar for the Government. Does that make them paranoid too?

Muslims aren't the victim class....they are the perpetrators. They have managed to dupe a lot of people.

I'm sorry, but I can't abide painting an entire group with the same brush. This is what you are doing. I'm in total agreement with you that a large number of Muslims are Islamic extremists bent on having things their own way and to them any infidel life is of no consequence. No one is arguing that point.

But that doesn't mean that every Muslim feels that way. It doesn't mean that every Muslim is hell bent of ridding the world of the infidels. You can't damn and entire religion because of the actions of extremist factions.

From what I can find in a quick search, there are more than a half million Muslims in this area. A Muslim school is a few blocks from me, and a pre-K thru gr. 12 school and prayer center (non-profit Islamic Foundation, since 1974) is in the suburb east of me. Many Muslim professionals live in nearby Oak Brook, McDonald's and Beanie Baby world headquarters.

You might find this list interesting -- Chicago Mosques (http://www.aiamasjid.org/aia/chicago-mosques-list.html)


You might find this interesting.


EEOC wins $240,000 damages for Muslim truckers fired for not delivering beer (http://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/10/eeoc-wins-240000-damages-for-muslim-truckers-fired-for-not-delivering-beer)




http://pamelageller.com/2015/10/illinois-two-muslim-truck-drivers-awarded-240000-for-refusing-to-deliver-alcohol.html/

I'm sorry, but I can't abide painting an entire group with the same brush. This is what you are doing. I'm in total agreement with you that a large number of Muslims are Islamic extremists bent on having things their own way and to them any infidel life is of no consequence. No one is arguing that point.

But that doesn't mean that every Muslim feels that way. It doesn't mean that every Muslim is hell bent of ridding the world of the infidels. You can't damn and entire religion because of the actions of extremist factions.


I can understand his position because of what the community is NOT doing. You dont seem to hear the outcry from the community over the attrocities. What you hear is a give me more attitude. Many left the places they were in because of oppression and to attempt to live in peace. But they are starting the cycle all over again.

Just look at the news and some of the headlines as to how much leeway they are being given as a group that put them in a protected class of citizen.

Oklahoma Police Captain Sues Police Department over Forced Mosque Attendance | Pamela Geller (http://pamelageller.com/2011/02/oklahoma-police-captain-sues-police-department-over-forced-mosque-attendance.html/)


Is this what the new American way has come to? The lawsuit lottery ?

You might find this interesting.


EEOC wins $240,000 damages for Muslim truckers fired for not delivering beer (http://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/10/eeoc-wins-240000-damages-for-muslim-truckers-fired-for-not-delivering-beer)




Illinois: Two Muslim truck drivers awarded $240,000 for refusing to deliver alcohol | Pamela Geller (http://pamelageller.com/2015/10/illinois-two-muslim-truck-drivers-awarded-240000-for-refusing-to-deliver-alcohol.html/)
That was Downstate, 100 miles away or so, maybe more.

I'm sorry, but I can't abide painting an entire group with the same brush. This is what you are doing. I'm in total agreement with you that a large number of Muslims are Islamic extremists bent on having things their own way and to them any infidel life is of no consequence. No one is arguing that point.

But that doesn't mean that every Muslim feels that way. It doesn't mean that every Muslim is hell bent of ridding the world of the infidels. You can't damn and entire religion because of the actions of extremist factions.

Spend enough time around the organizations as I have the last 34 years... and you learn to NEVER ignore a threat from any group that has a significant enough amount of people bent on murder and mass destruction.

Would you be as forgiving of the White supremacist movement for example, or Biker gangs. The same arguments can be made for them. Every one of them aren't bad people with evil intent either... but what does that change, nothing, because there are enough that are. Or pick any other number of groups that has an above average number of troublemakers in them.

How many Jews do Muslim charities aid every year? How many Buddhists? How many Christians? Its actually prohibited to aid non-Muslims. Real nice bunch.

Like I said... we aren't talking dozens or even hundreds... we are talking millions. And millions is a significant threat no matter WHAT group they are part of.

And I'll trust the findings of Government agencies that are tasked with keeping us safe rather than any other propaganda from unknown or unproven sources.

You are entitled to your opinion just as I am... I have plenty of justification. I have plenty of facts to back it up.

I'm not trying to convince you otherwise... so kindly don't try and change how I think. Its going to go no place and will only get both of us upset.

Spend most of your adult life working around where I have... you would think differently about a lot of things as well.

Nowhere did I say EVERY Muslim feels that way. Those were your words.

"Once you are dead it doesn't matter, while you are alive Open your Eyes and Ears".

Would you be as forgiving of the White supremacist movement for example, or Biker gangs. .

That is actually a good example. No I wouldn't be forgiving of White supremacists because their whole credo is racist. On the other hand there are some biker "gangs" that actually do a lot of good work. So I would be disinclined to condemn all biker gangs.

I'm not sure if I'm getting through here. Again, no one denies that islamic extremist are a danger to the world. No one denies that they need to be watched (even spied on). But you can't condemn all who follow the Muslim faith because of the actions of extremists just as you can't condemn all biker gangs because some (even many) are lawless.

If that's not what you are doing, then I'm sorry, but that's not the message I am getting from your posts in this thread.

I actually know a few self proclaimed white Supremacists... one was even once a Imperial Wizard (known him my whole life in fact)... and none of them are the monsters the propaganda make them to be. And I'd known enough Bikers... ( and by that I mean 1%ers in clubs people associate with Bikers) and spent enough time around them to know that THEY aren't the monsters the media make them out to be. Well except for a few clubs that really are. And like I said.. these were the ones that have the reputation. Can say the same about the Mafia too (knew a couple Dons , they are both dead now and their families for decades).

You will find similar crimes or worse being committed in most inner city housing projects... Yet they aren't demonized by the press as universally.

And when you have MILLIONS in any specific group sympathizing or even actively being the radical element. You don't ignore any of them... because as was mentioned by others... you don't see very much outrage in their communities because they would rather protect their own... and that makes them accomplices. Just as it does anyone else that knows of crimes and remains silent.

Yeah... I didn't have a sheltered and charmed life in my early adulthood. I even had offerings by people high enough level to participate in certain "activities" made famous in "Miami Vice" that despite the lure of seriously big money at a time I desperately needed... common sense and my moral compass prevailed and made me take the hard path, and no I don't regret it.

And before you say it....the distaste and apathy towards other religions taught and practiced by the Muslims...is no different than what is preached by the Klan, Louis Farrakhan, La Raza, the Muslim Brotherhood or a number of other groups.

Just that some are embraced by the Political correctness people which makes them no different.

And my rather large circle of friends is probably MORE diverse than most peoples is. Some of them Muslims that have actually earned my trust over the years I've known them (Afghan, Iranian, Pakistani, Somali, Eritrea and a couple others) ...and no what I went through is no secret to them. Nor my feelings towards people that sympathize with that element. Do they have my absolute trust? Nope....but then nobody but my immediate family has that.

Out of more than a billion Muslims, you let a million influence you? Your math is lousy.

Out of more than a billion Muslims, you let a million influence you? Your math is lousy.


My Math is damn good... How many did it take for 9/11, Fort Hood, ETC.

You might live in some remote place that is the last place that would be a target...but many of us live or work in and around prime targets...or at least within the blast zone.

My Math is damn good... How many did it take for 9/11, Fort Hood, ETC.

You might live in some remote place that is the last place that would be a target...but many of us live or work in and around prime targets...or at least within the blast zone.
I live in a prime blast zone and am not at all worried. Like I said, the ones around here have library cards -- and are often second- and third-generation Muslims.

I live in a prime blast zone and am not at all worried. Like I said, the ones around here have library cards -- and are often second- and third-generation Muslims.
And if you watch the news... and follow government security alerts... you also know that education or being born here is not a deterrent to being radicalized as many have done it and went to kill people. Many have been caught trying here and abroad... ALL should be jailed and have their citizenship revoked for it.

And if you watch the news... and follow government security alerts... you also know that education or being born here is not a deterrent to being radicalized as many have done it and went to kill people. Many have been caught trying here and abroad... ALL should be jailed and have their citizenship revoked for it.
But they're given library cards and sent on their way?

?? Yes a library card is some circles is a proof of orthodoxy or is it citizenship and what were they reading at the library, how to build a bomb?

R
?? Yes a library card is some circles is a proof of orthodoxy or is it citizenship and what were they reading at the library, how to build a bomb?
Library employees cannot give patron information to law enforcement (or anyone else) without a court order.

Worries me some, that smoothy and I traveled in some of the same circles. When I was in South Carolina, I was friends with many of the KKK (they had a regional headquarters there) Many of my fellow workers belonged.

And as noted, from the ones I knew, they were not as evil as I see presented and never burned a cross in my yard, (although they did on their own property during organized protests.) (still not sure why a cross)

As smoothy in my time in Arizona, I need some of the Bikers, and was at some of their bars a few times. Did not prefer, their life style, but normally they were not as bad as depicted. (of course a few were)

And I knew some of the mafia, knew the head from New Jersey and sat at the table with many of the family members at one time.

I knew many mercenaries, from my days in SE Asia and South America, and while yes, some may be worst, than thought of, most were just ex soldiers looking for money

Here in China, I know 100's of Muslims, My best friend in Zhengzhou is Muslim. I shop at Muslim shops every day, eat at Muslim stores every week.
But I am still scared of them every day.

I was less than 10 feet from a suicide bomber, last year in Dali, where the police got him before he caught without setting off his bomb. Every month or two, I walk though the train station, where 3 years ago, Muslim terrorist, killed several people in an attack there. I visit locations and cities, that have several attacks each year.

So, it is easy not to be scared or concerned, when you live in a place where nothing is currently happening. But if a library was bombed once month, someone in North America, would you feel safe today?

There are no safe places in the world, and while some are safer than others, good people can fear bad things happening to them, and bad things do indeed happen to good people. Many Muslim I know are just as afraid as anyone else of getting caught up in bad things from bad people.

It's not Muslims burning black churches, or shooting up classrooms, and if you can understand bikers, and criminals, then understand your fellow human who happens to be Muslim. To elevate one over another is illogical, and a product of FEAR bringing out the prejudice in us.

There are Magnitudes MORE muslims creating havoc and murdering people in the world... than there are Burning Black churches... in fact... when was the last black church burned? How many of them have been burned in the last 20 years, last 50 years... how many Christan churches have been burned by Muslims in just the last 5 years, in just Egypt (without factoring in ANY other countries into the total).. you come up with far more than Back churches that were EVER burned in total.

Right in YOUR back yard

Inside Virginia&#39;s Church-Burning Werewolf White Supremacist Cult - The Daily Beast (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/11/11/inside-virginia-s-church-burning-werewolf-white-supremecist-cult.html)

Fires in Black Churches, Possibly Caused by Arson, in Ohio, Georgia, Tennessee, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Florida - The Atlantic (http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2015/06/arson-churches-north-carolina-georgia/396881/)

Of course they are never referred to as Christian terrorists, and maybe they are "NICE" guys to meet (when they aren't behaving badly) and hangout with, so rationalizing your fear of Muslims is illogical and again you have no problem ignoring FACTS to support your very narrow view.

Church has an electrical fire or heating system malfunction and its automatically white people doing it? Please...

How about YOU moving someplace important where Muslims have and say they are targeting again? Might change your perspective somewhat.

Your complete and utter devotion to defending the Religion of Global terrorism is astounding.

Sorry but I'm call Bull on your claim that my VERY rational reason for not trusting them isn't based on actual facts...and history.

Go tell someone in the inner city who is and has been targeted by gang members in the past their fear and distrust of them is irrational....because it is NO different.

I actually lived my FACTS....you get them from some biased media source of questionable accuracy and motives. And the media is far from reliable OR trustworthy....and hasn't been for decades.

Until you escape a terrorist attack and or see the results of one, up close and personal. Seen the dead bodies smell the smells associated with burned corpses...

Then you can come back and discuss that on a level playing field and common ground. Because until you have....you really can't see it through the eyes of someone who has.

Muslims are terrorizing you in your town? Prove it. For the record there is absolutely no difference between a Jew, Christian, or Muslim.............NONE! NADA!!!

Live in all the fear you want to. You are certainly ENTITLED to that! For all your so called experience, your perception of reality is colored by your own hate and I am grateful NOT to see the world through your eyes.

For all your experience you have yet to find the best use of it beyond the usual rant that accompanies a lack of courage. Certainly your rants in this forum surpasses the point of sheer LUNACY.

*COURAGE - Positive Action Despite Fear.

Muslims are terrorizing you in your town? Prove it. For the record there is absolutely no difference between a Jew, Christian, or Muslim.............NONE! NADA!!!

Live in all the fear you want to. You are certainly ENTITLED to that! For all your so called experience, your perception of reality is colored by your own hate and I am grateful NOT to see the world through your eyes.

For all your experience you have yet to find the best use of it beyond the usual rant that accompanies a lack of courage. Certainly your rants in this forum surpasses the point of sheer LUNACY.

*COURAGE - Positive Action Despite Fear.

Maybe not where you live... there is a HUGE difference between them in the rest of the world. Only one group is bent on killing everyone else purely because of religion.

And its not the Buddhists.

It's not Muslims burning black churches, or shooting up classrooms, and if you can understand bikers, and criminals, then understand your fellow human who happens to be Muslim. To elevate one over another is illogical, and a product of FEAR bringing out the prejudice in us.

Tell me Tal what do we do with the outlaw biker who is also a Muslim? You want to distinguish between one sort of hate crime and another so you can say so and so doesn't do that. The truth is tal, those with extremist leanings are capable of any act, Muslims kill children just as readily as they kill anyone else, the only question they will ask is what do you believe? Wasn't some waco asking if you were christian and killing over there? Whereas a biker will not be concerned with what you believe. A white supremist will be concerned about the colour of your skin and a KKK is of similar persuasion. What I am concerned aBout is lawlessness fed by ridiculous beliefs, and elimination of this should be out chief goal, starting with a militant religion that wants to impose itsself upon us. A religion that doesn't entertain the answer; no, without consequence


Obviously you have not been in the middle east or other places. Muslims burn churches and kill christians. Ask a Nigerian whether Muslims burn churches, or a Pakistani. You live in a safe place and can snipe from the sidelines, but the place isn't safe from extremists, no place is. Stop defending the indefensible

LOL Clete, you live in an equally safe place but you snipe from the sidelines too.

Clete.. what we have here is political correctness run amok.

If a white person commits a crime against a Muslim, Black, gay or Transgender... its automatically called a hate crime. But a black, gay or Transgender (or pick any other group) can walk into a place spewing slurs... or spewing Allah Ackkkkkk(with copious amounts of phlegm) bar...does it against a white or group of whites

And its NEVER considered a hate crime

Clete.. what we have here is political correctness run amok.

If a white person commits a crime against a Muslim, Black, gay or Transgender... its automatically called a hate crime. But a black, gay or Transgender (or pick any other group) can walk into a place spewing slurs... or spewing Allah Ackkkkkk(with copious amounts of phlegm) bar...does it against a white or group of whites

And its NEVER considered a hate crime

Of course you know the difference between committing a crime and spewing slurs right?

Of course you know the difference between committing a crime and spewing slurs right?

When a White person does BOTH... its automatically a hate crime... when a black, Muslim, or Hispanic ( or fill in the blank for a non-white or non christian) does it... its never a hate crime.

Fort Hood....HE did it..its neither a hate crime OR terrorism because Obama decreed it wouldn't be....and there are dozens of other examples every day.

Black gang kills or robs a white person while spewing anti white racial epithets....he was a simple victim of crime.

Let a group of white people commit a crime against a black or (fill in the blank) the DOJ gets involved and Hate crime charges are automatically made.

Lots of examples of that...several where it turned out the crime never even occured....after ruining the lives of the involved. But no hate crime charge against the person making the charges over and above filing a false report.

Remember the duke Lacrosse incident WHITE players accused of rape by a black girl. Made national news....before the entire thing was proven false....did the guys dragged through the mud ever get compensation....nope...they were white.
Was SHE ever accused or charged with a hate crime? Nope
And Obamas DOJ felt they deserved it anyway...because they must have had some evil thoughts some point in their life.

Yet...Black felon...LONG rap sheet results in hood rats rioting in Balitmore....they get paid millions. Then the idiots in Ferguson....same deal.

If it was a white person....they would never have seen a dime. Or got more than an oops , sorry IF they got that much.

Has there EVER been a single black person charge with a hate crime say...the last 7 years anyplace in the USA when their victims were not black.

Doubt it....but the news is filled when its the opposite situation.

Nothing fair..or equal when it comes to hate crime charges. Its nearly ALWAYS targeted exclusively at the whites. And rarely if ever applied to any other group even in identical situations.

Smoothy - Your complete and utter devotion to the KKK is astounding.

He has some points,

A Black church in Atlanta, (Church of the Black Madonna) teaches that all white people are satan, any black person that has dealings with a white person is a traitor to their race. The real black Jesus will come and save all true blacks from the evil white people. And black people have an obligation to destroy the white oppressor.

Change the words white and black, and let a white person try to open a church like that, beyond making it someone of a nation wide church.

That white person would have the church closed, the IRS investigating, and most likey be in jail or at least with several federal law suits

Why is it such a surprise that after a long sordid history of oppression, suppression and cruelty, in America that those that have and still suffer would NOT like the "white man" (Specifically Christians on Sunday, but wear hoods and burn crosses the rest of the week) and his ways?

Well you wanted everyone to be assimilated into American society, so don't holler when they assimilate the bad parts too.

And this is why Religion is dangerous... Smoothy is three steps away from suggesting religious genocide because they started it first.

Smoothy - Your complete and utter devotion to the KKK is astounding.

You apparently are brain damaged or on drugs... because you pulled that out of your rectal orifice.


Why is it such a surprise that after a long sordid history of oppression, suppression and cruelty, in America that those that have and still suffer would NOT like the "white man" (Specifically Christians on Sunday, but wear hoods and burn crosses the rest of the week) and his ways?

Well you wanted everyone to be assimilated into American society, so don't holler when they assimilate the bad parts too.
And that makes them the racists... not the average White person.


And this is why Religion is dangerous... Smoothy is three steps away from suggesting religious genocide because they started it first.

Time to put the bottle down.

Its pretty obvious here that the Liberals are the ones who are the ones with the racist tendencies because they have said and done EVERYTHING to push the agenda that the white man is inferior and isn't entitled to the same standards that are applied to everyone else.

When was the LAST black person charged with an actual hate crime despite racist rants prior to the crime? Never saw one on the news. Yes there have been MULTIPLE cases where whites have been charged with hate crimes JUST because their victims were not white... and many cases when they were falsely accused of crimes even though no credible evidence ever existed but one persons word. (As one example of many... the Duke Lacrosse incident)

Funny how the left REALLY doesn't want equality... they don't want the laws applied equally... which makes them the real racists.

Nowhere in any law is it written... (......unless you are "pick a gender, special interest or ethinic group")

You apparently are brain damaged or on drugs..


Time to put the bottle down.

This is what we see as a typical christian. Not sure how that helps the cause.

This is what we see as a typical christian. Not sure how that helps the cause.
Get stuffed... what it shows is typical self righteous Aetheists that feel they can bash anyone who is not an atheist without reprisal.

Another case... Two black cops shoot and kill a white CHILD on purpose... they are charged with murder but NOT a hate crime.

2 officers arrested in fatal shooting of 6-year-old boy in Marksville | New Orleans - WDSU Home (http://www.wdsu.com/news/local-news/new-orleans/2-officers-arrested-in-fatal-shooting-of-6yearold-boy-in-marksville/36312478)

If it was White cops...and a black kid...it would automatically become a hate crime

what it shows is typical self righteous Aetheists that feel they can bash anyone who is not an atheist without reprisal.Where did I bash you?

Where did I bash you?



This is what we see as a typical christian. Not sure how that helps the cause.


Read your quoted post.

Ah, I see, you're hyper-sensitive. Yes, that's damning stuff you quoted. :eyeroll:

Ah, I see, you're hyper-sensitive. Yes, that's damning stuff you quoted. :eyeroll:

I'm hypersensitive? I couldn't care less if you are an Atheist or not... I don't feel some NEED to go around bashing people that are... you and several others can't seem to avoid it.

Once again, I didn't bash you, I just quoted what you wrote to show how mean you can be to people then turn around and say that atheists and liberals are the bad people. Your racist and homophobic leanings are well documented on this site.

Once again, I didn't bash you, I just quoted what you wrote to show how mean you can be to people then turn around and say that atheists and liberals are the bad people. Your racist and homophobic leanings are well documented on this site.
Typical liberal response again...

You bashed Christians over and over.. yet defend Muslims.

You have to go back to the 1600's to the Salem Witch trials find the last real Christian persecutions, or the Spanish inquisition before that or almost a 1,000 years to the Crusades, but those really weren't Christian provoked, those were in response to Muslim invasion and genocide on previously Christian lands.

We have to only go back as far as today for Muslim related ones... and in the life span of people still alive today for three MAJOR Atheist based mass murders of well over 150 million (Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot just to name three). So you don't have the moral high road to be bashing anyone.

Time to put the bottle down.

Go masturbate.

Not to invoke Godwin's law here, but this is how all the biggest racist movements start. With people who're unwilling show critical thought and compassion. You go on these ducking rants on how you can't forgive when everyone, including Jesus, is telling you to get over yourself. You're not racist, I can see that. It is all against Islam.

You're not even willing to try to convince yourself that could be wrong. You're just so ducking happy to sit in your little ivory tower and dole out your judgement. You lack compassion. Regardless of who they are, everyone deserves compassion. It is the mark of a civilized person.

I respect you. I accept that you're a smart person and have done a HELL of a lot of good in this world. You're also judgmental and quick to employ your sharp tongue. That is fine. All anyone here is asking of you (And this is in response to the closed "jerk" thread) is to temper your words and be helpful.


Typical liberal response again...

You bashed Christians over and over.. yet defend Muslims.

You have to go back to the 1600's to the Salem Witch trials find the last real Christian persecutions, or the Spanish inquisition before that or almost a 1,000 years to the Crusades, but those really weren't Christian provoked, those were in response to Muslim invasion and genocide on previously Christian lands.

We have to only go back as far as today for Muslim related ones... and in the life span of people still alive today for three MAJOR Atheist based mass murders of well over 150 million (Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot just to name three). So you don't have the moral high road to be bashing anyone.

The holocaust. The IRA. Croatia, 41-45. Bosina in the 90s. Those were religiously driven genocides by Christians. This is the past century Smoothy.

The bottom line is that we're all covered in poop. No one is clean.

Craven... nothing changes your viewpoint and outlook on life... than almost being killed in a terrorist attack that was launched purely for religious reasons. Until you've been there... its really only an abstract concept in your mind. You see it.. but you really can't see it from the perspective of someone who has been there. No different than being a cancer survivor... or surviving a heart attack or a stroke.

Fr_Chuck has seen similar stuff to what I've seen. He grasps what I've been saying.

If you have never walked around and stepped over 100+ dead and burned corpses The vison and the smell will be with you're the rest of your life... and it Reinforces the fact and not just belief... that certain groups can no simply be trusted blindly. Individuals can be, but that's a far different thing. And as I've said... there are individuals that have earned my trust over many years of knowing them. However I have good cause and perfectly valid reasons to not trust certain groups as a whole. The Government doesn't... why should I. THey don't for the very same reasons I don't. I've been in the position to see the reasons they don't, and know the others even if I haven't seen them personally.

Just an FYI...the Dead bodies and 9/11 were two different events...separated by almost a decade on two different continents. I was almost killed at the Pentagon..and should not hav ewalked out 15 minutes before it happened....the other event..I witnessed but was in no danger but I did know several people well that was killed in it and I did see the aftermath, up close and personal. Something I wish I could unsee and forget.

As far as being judgmental... the Political correctness movement is guilty of that. They judge everyone negatively that doesn't buy their viewpoint hook line and sinker. Fact is... EVERYONE is judgmental... even though they don't wish to admit it. Every person passes judgement on ever other person they meet every day. Is this person safe.. do they appear to be a threat... do the want to rob me, rape me, kill me etc... Its human nature... and its also about survival. At least as an adult.

And those that criticize me, even though they haven't walked in my footsteps... are guilty of being judgmental. You may not see it... and you may choose not to believe it... but I always have very good reasons before I judge someone. Unlike many liberals, I give someone the benefit of the doubt until certain conditions exist to show they no longer deserve it.

Look at Sarah Palin... she never said she could see Russia from her back yard... that was a skit on SNL by someone else portraying her in an unfavorable light... yet she was judged and ridiculed for it... etc. Plenty of examples out there.

Also..not being rude. Here is a hypothetical..

You are a parent....your child was a victim of a molester at some point in the past...doesn't matter if they were caught or not....you later find out someone on your street is a registered sex offender ( but not pedophilia). You previously allowed them to babysit your child before finding this out.


Do you stop...assuming the worst and judging them without knowing if they are one of those that will reoffend or one that won't.

Is it any more wrong to presume they WILL do something again and you stop associating stop hiring them and start to assume they will?


I know what practically every other parent would do....and its no different than what I would do.....where would you stand on this? I'm pretty sure you would do what most people would do, and that's Prejudge, and presume based on what you do know (that they are part of a group known to do something and know that some will do again) to assure future safety of your family.

I will side with smoothy on this one, (LOL) something I do not often do, While more for ethnic (racial) issues, If you are in Burma (which I do go to) and have seen dozens of bodies lying there, many of them children. Or traveled to the refugee camps in Thailand and China where there are 100's of thousands of people living because of the war.

Or unless you have seen what is left of buildings after the bombings, and seen grieving parents from children being killed.

Perhaps gone though airport security where there are 100's of heavy armed police or soldiers and had to pass bomb sniffing devices to enter the airport.

Walked down a street, the morning after a terrorist attack to see store fronts blown out.

Been less than 10 feet away from a suicide bomber who is stopped by the police.

Or even lived in a nation where the Muslims are a majority over Christians and have more legal rights than a Christian in their ability to worship and to wear religious items. I hear the call to prayer every day where I work (for Muslims) Hear Arabic prayers over speaker systems in Muslim eating places, but a mention of Christianity can get a government "religion" police at your door.

There are Christians (and others) being killed every day by Muslims in a religious war, somewhere in the world. While most is in the middle East, it is very active in Asia also.

This war is moving and will be in the West one day

I do not have a answer, since of course most (the larger part) of the Muslims are not terrorist, I have many Muslim friends, eat several times a week at Muslim restaurants, I went to a Muslim wedding last week. My best friend here in China is a Muslim.

But is there some fear, yes,

"Cette fois, c'est la guerre" #LeParisien (https://twitter.com/hashtag/LeParisien?src=hash)

Ask yourself now why do we tolerate the vipers among us?