Hello:

Are we financing our cities on the backs of the poor??? Of course we are. Is it any wonder black people take exception to it?

Police Shootings Won't Stop Unless We Also Stop Shaking Down Black People | Mother Jones (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/07/police-shootings-traffic-stops-excessive-fines)

excon

Are you suggesting we should tax the rich more? Corporations more? Reduce spending and reduce tax?

Well what do you expect when stop and frisk, and racial profiling were such big hits?

Should we riot here in Memphis because the black guy shot the white cop?

Hi J:

Well, if you think black people are oppressing whites, I surely would. I hear lynching works.

excon

Should we riot here in Memphis because the black guy shot the white cop?

Go ahead, why NOT?

Black lives matter .
2015 Chicago Murders - Timeline - DNAinfo.com Chicago (http://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/2015-chicago-murders)

Hello tom:

I got it... Apparently, as long as black people keep killing black people, the cops killing a few more ain't no big deal.. Certainly, we all know that getting killed by your NEIGHBOR is way WORSE than getting killed by the COPS..

I can't believe that anyone who purports to support the Constitution could hold such a callous disregard for the rule of law. You DO know that we CONTROL the cops, or are supposed to anyway, but the neighbors don't work for US.. They didn't swear an oath to uphold the Constitution, but the cops did..

excon

I got it... Apparently, as long as black people keep killing black people, the cops killing a few more ain't no big deal..

Apparently Black lives only matter IF a cop kills them .I've never heard the emperor say 'if I had a son ,he'd look like Elton Blue or Adrius Hayes .I never see Al Sharpton marching in the inner city protesting this murder epidemic . I hear no protests for the black lives lost in inner city crimes . I hear no remorse for the black lives lost in abortion mills . For every black American killed by homicide, there are 19 blacks killed by abortion.

I hear no protests for the black lives lost in inner city crimes .
Black Chicago Tribune columnist John W. Fountain often writes about how "we are killing each other."

Where are the jobs that black teens and young people used to do? But then, why work at a low-level job when they can sell drugs and buy a Mercedes? Why are they slid through school and graduate without being able to read and write? Why do they form gangs to be the "family" they don't have? i.e, where is the family unit? And what are we all doing about all of this?

And everyone from around the world is wondering why America has lost its mind.

@wonderGirl, post modern societal collapse. We want so much and are willing to sacrifice so little of our own desires to achieve what we want that the fabric and bonds that held a family together are just absent. In order to have the house, the car, the TV, the iPhone, the next new and shiny thing everyone is working and there is no bonding within the family. I have seen traces of it with my white collar, white breed, subburb friends. They both had so much to do, and most of it carry over from their single lives, that their family and children were neglected. The marriage and house almost collapsed. It took a move across the country to save it. Suddenly they needed each other for support and they weren't dependent on factors external to the family for their entertainment. Things have gotten a lot better.

When you come down to it all anyone really wants at a basic level is to belong somewhere or some how. If you aren't getting that feeling with your blood family then you'll look elsewhere. That and cool stuff.

In my own extended family I've noticed a need for instant gratification.

Where are the jobs that
black teens and young people used to do? But then, why work at a low-level job when they can sell drugs and buy a Mercedes? Why are they slid through school and graduate without being able to read and write? Why do they form gangs to be the "family" they don't have? i.e, where is the family unit? And what are we all doing about all of this?
You would be better to address this in progressively liberal ruled Chi-town . Where are the jobs pols have promised for generations ? What policies drove businesses out of town ? Where is the education that the high taxes have paid for ? Why don't teachers, with jobs almost guaranteed until retirement ,teach the kids ? What social policies encourage single parenthood ? It wasn't that long ago that Blacks had traditionally strong family units . What happened to change that ?

Much of the failures go back to the family unit -- or lack of one. Single moms are too busy keeping a roof over the kids' head and food in their tummies to have time to monitor homework and learning. Young men get girls pregnant and then disappear with pride for another notch in their belt. Businesses have left the state, downsized, and move to another country. Trickle-down economy doesn't exist.

What gets me about the article is that they act as if it is a new thing. It is as old as the war on drugs is. They take your possesions for whatever reason these days and keep them. Look at how many people have lost a home to the drug war when they werent even involved in it. Or those that lost a car because they sought sexual gratification from a local street hooker. Yes it is out of control. But there is also a larger problem looming and that is the disrespect for the police and the thought that they too as a victim can win the lawsuit lottery. It all has to stop. Body cams are not the panacea that they are purpoted to be.

We are on the downside of the slippery slope and it seems that nobody has the right idea except it really boils down to personal responsibility. Accept it and move on.

Much of the failures go back to the family unit -- or lack of one. Single moms are too busy keeping a roof over the kids' head and food in their tummies to have time to monitor homework and learning. Young men get girls pregnant and then disappear with pride for another notch in their belt. Businesses have left the state, downsized, and move to another country. Trickle-down economy doesn't exist.

"trickle down " isn't the problem. It is deciding that businesses can be milked for extra public revenue. It is the decision to regulate them to a point that they can't be competitive in the market place if they remain . It is the uncontrolled inviting in of illegal immigrants making job opportunities less competitive for the poor undereducated Americans.

It is social welfare policies that encouraged the rise of the single parent family . You are 100% correct in identifying that as possibly the major cause .You did not see this type of decay the family unit in the 1950s . Back then the Blacks generally had a strong family unit that was also strongly reinforced by the neighborhood and the church. The rise of the welfare state contributed greatly to the demise of the black family as a stable institution. The out of wedlock birth rate among African Americans today is 73%, 3x higher than it was prior to the War on Poverty. Children raised in fatherless homes are far more likely to grow up poor and to eventually engage in criminal behavior, than children who are raised in 2 parent homes.

Moynihan wrote about this extensively in his study 'The Black Family ' where he accurately predicted where the black family was headed .Marriage, provides a “stable home” for children to learn common virtues. He wrote that marriage directs men and women toward the future, asking them not just to commit to each other but to plan, earn, save, and to devote themselves to advancing their children's prosperity . Single mothers , tended to drift into pregnancy, often more than once and by more than 1 man. Such mothers are unlikely to “shape their children's character and ability” in ways that lead to upward mobility.

Moynihan's conclusion: “a national effort towards the problems of Negro Americans must be directed towards the question of family structure.”

But then what happened to his prophetic report ? Well it was never officially published because the permanent bureaucracy objected to it's "subtle racism". The egg heads in the universities nit picked his stats. He was accused of 'blaming the victims ' . Any attempt at linking the prospects of strengthening the black family through civil rights laws were put on the back burner and forgotten .


15 years later ,a Moynihan loyal economist named Paul Offner did a study and concluded that , of the black children born between 1967 and 1969, 72 percent received Aid to Families with Dependent Children before the age of 18. School dropout rates, delinquency, and crime, were rising in the cities. The 15 years since the report was written had witnessed the birth of millions of fatherless babies ,and the entrenchment of a permanent underclass. The effects were immediate after the War on Poverty was codified into law while also ignoring the Moynihan report .

And everyone from around the world is wondering why America has lost its mind.

No, we are not wondering, we are trying desperately not to emulate you

Shouldn't the title of this question be "Black lives ONLY matter as long" as Al Sharpton GETS paid?

Shouldn't the title of this question be "Black lives ONLY matter as long" as Al Sharpton GETS paid?

Or Jesse Jackson...

Hello again,

So, you guys didn't even read the article.. Facts are hard for right wingers...

excon

I read it... its just more excuses from a certain group ( and actually there is more than one group that does this) that would rather blame something... anything else on their plight rather than addressing the root cause.

In my younger years I spent enough time around a lot of people that would rather take the "crooked"" route over the often more difficult "Straight and narrow" and when they got caught (as often happens)... rarely accepted their own responsibility in it.

Choices and actions have consequences... and lines have to be drawn somewhere... and no matter where they are... someones going to be unhappy about it. Mostly the people who are upset they weren't drawn further away from their own chosen actions.

Knew a lot of people that fit that bill growing up... and I can't exclude myself ( I was lucky enough or just smart enough to not get caught then)... and with age comes wisdom and I no longer agree with the way I thought or acted then either.

So a reformed character, but the problem lies with youth, how many of those killed in in past year been young, inexperience, perhaps even illeducated. The responsibility lies with the community, even though each is responsible for theier actions, the failure belongs to the community. With the resources available you would think it is possible to train and discipline youth

With the resources available you would think it is possible to train and discipline youth

But that might lessen their self-esteem. How could those impressionable 24 year olds ever feel good about themselves if they had to face consequences? The Horror of being responsible is simply not PC.

I thought they needed more recruits in the military perhapps bring back national service with an option of civilian relief or foreign service

Hello again,

Blaming the black family and NOT the blue family, is RACIST, RACIST, and even more RACIST..

excon

Well ex there is black and there is blue and there is red. By blue I expect you mean the cops but let's remember he police chief in Ferguson is black and yet a black teen still managed to get himself shot, now who is to blame. It is time to take race out of the issue and understand there is a certain level of street violence fueled by easy access to guns

Hello again,

Blaming the black family and NOT the blue family, is RACIST, RACIST, and even more RACIST..

excon yeah that is the smear they gave Moynihan when they dismissed his report . But if his report had been taken seriously ,the Black community would be much better off today.

So a reformed character, but the problem lies with youth, how many of those killed in in past year been young, inexperience, perhaps even illeducated. The responsibility lies with the community, even though each is responsible for theier actions, the failure belongs to the community. With the resources available you would think it is possible to train and discipline youth

I agree and disagree, because the communities we are talking about have been DEFUNDED long ago, so the resources for better schools just doesn't exist, but plenty of money for cops pushed by city officials to stop and frisk, and profile those defunded areas to exploit and extract what little funds are left.

It's a simple formula that's been used for decades, destroy the school you destroy the community. Sell it to a developer for a condo. Question remains, where do the poor folks go?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentrification

Maybe it's not racism(?), but greed that's the root of the problem. Race is a good cover story ain't it? Seems we have enough evidence of rich folks, making working folks, poor working folks, with the last recession. Of course the really poor folks never had a chance in the first place.

And WHITE lives matter! To think otherwise is racist.

We had a LEO killed a little over a week ago. He was white, his killer was black. His killer was a convicted bank robber. I bank at the bank he robbed. He beat the tellers within an inch of their lives.

It comes down to not being responsible for actions and an entitilist attitude.

"trickle down " isn't the problem. It is deciding that businesses can be milked for extra public revenue. It is the decision to regulate them to a point that they can't be competitive in the market place if they remain . It is the uncontrolled inviting in of illegal immigrants making job opportunities less competitive for the poor undereducated Americans.

Almost... but not quite. A lot of this is what the business what you to believe. You need to think of them like people because that is how they're reacting. Increase their taxes and they react the same way that minimum wage drones will. It is a balancing act, keep taxes low SHOULD encourage the businesses to pay their employees more which should allow them to spend more and the economy grows. What is being seen is that the company makes more money and a select few people get the money and the average employee sees NOTHING of it. The regulations should be on MEGA salaries in my humble opinion. When a the board of a company makes 40-400x what their average employee makes, there is a problem.

Also consider that many of the jobs that the Illegals take are the ones that the poor WON'T take. There is a huge sense of entitlement that causes a lot of people to stay on welfare or EI because they're too prideful to take the crap jobs. It took me 6 months to swallow my pride and take a job that was paying me a third of what I was after I got turfed in '08. We have had big issues with foreign workers. We are only allowed to hire foreign workers if there is no one able to do the job. As you can imagine companies go wild because they'll offer low wages for that but also get the people who want to work those jobs.

It is all a matter of perspective.


It is social welfare policies that encouraged the rise of the single parent family . You are 100% correct in identifying that as possibly the major cause .You did not see this type of decay the family unit in the 1950s . Back then the Blacks generally had a strong family unit that was also strongly reinforced by the neighborhood and the church. The rise of the welfare state contributed greatly to the demise of the black family as a stable institution. The out of wedlock birth rate among African Americans today is 73%, 3x higher than it was prior to the War on Poverty. Children raised in fatherless homes are far more likely to grow up poor and to eventually engage in criminal behavior, than children who are raised in 2 parent homes.

Moynihan wrote about this extensively in his study 'The Black Family ' where he accurately predicted....BLAH BLAH BLAH (Snippet for brevity)......The effects were immediate after the War on Poverty was codified into law while also ignoring the Moynihan report .

There is subtle racism in it because a lot of what was seen is mirrored in white communities, Hispanic communities, Asian communities, and *RACE* community across the world. The problem is isolated is black america, it is just most prominent in black america.

My two cents which often makes no sense.

So a reformed character, but the problem lies with youth, how many of those killed in in past year been young, inexperience, perhaps even illeducated. The responsibility lies with the community, even though each is responsible for theier actions, the failure belongs to the community. With the resources available you would think it is possible to train and discipline youth

(I am Canadian, and we're trying our hardest to embrace the positive of the USA and suppress the negative.)

You can. That was the primary point of public education. It is under funded all over the place and the opportunities that a lot of the youth see are vastly different then what we want them to see. Money, people, and political change will fix this. Missing any one of those and it won't.

And WHITE lives matter! To think otherwise is racist.Hello again, J:

If the cops had used the white community as their funding source, and killed them if they took exception to it, then I'd be all behind your white lives matter too.

But, that ISN'T what's happening. It's happening ONLY to the black community. To pretend otherwise is racist, or at least willfully ignorant. I suspect you didn't read the linked article, or you just thought it was lies, lies and more lies..

excon

Does this tragic killing of a white cop excuse the cop who shot a guy in the back for a traffic stop?

Yes, I read your link.

You don't have much association with the black community other than your media, do you?

Before you shout I'm racist, remember that I come from a biracial family. I have 0% racism in my blood, but I also live in a primarily black community and associate face-to-face on a daily basis. Many of them feel entitled because our ancestors enslaved them. Yes, believe it or not, that mindset is still alive and well. They have babies to "get another check," (I've heard that ad nauseum).

Many by are treated terribly as children, so this is what they learn. Hate and aggression. I can't tell you how many times a mother has yelled at her 2 year old to "stop dat dayum cryin or I'll whoop yo asss" at 2 in the morning when that 2 year old child should be home in bed.

Go listen to the media, form your opinions. When you live it on a daily basis, come back and we'll discuss.

Hello again, J:

Maybe you just don't know what racism is.. That you come from a bi-racial family doesn't exclude you.. In fact, you just PROVED your racism with your comments. You use words like they and them and then broad brush an entire community with it... That's racist.. You describe BAD behavior and then attribute it black people.. That's racist. Hate and aggression is what "they" LEARN. That's racist..

I know you don't understand this stuff. When you educate yourself, come back and we'll discuss.

excon

And WHITE lives matter! To think otherwise is racist.



That's what Martin O'Malley thought .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fk6eDKjQm4c

That's what Bernie Sanders thought . But he is in good standing after effectively surrendering his rally in Seattle to the Black Lives matter ummmmm coalition .

Bernie Sanders shut down, then addresses big crowd - David Cohen - POLITICO (http://www.politico.com/story/2015/08/after-speech-disruption-sanders-discusses-racism-121186.html)

Believe me. I understand racism. I live it every day in Memphis Tennessee.

The difference between you and I is that I interact with all cultures, I don't rely on the liberal media for my information. I rely on real time/life situations. Your media is tilted towards their agenda. I'm more for equality and that everyone should be held to the same standard no matter their economic background. Oh, and at one time in my life I was on welfare, so don't try to play that card. I know how it works.

Hello again, tom:

Black lives matter.. The Black Lives Matter MOVEMENT sucks. It reminds me of Occupy. Lots of anger - NO solutions.

excon

Hello again, J:

It has NOTHING to do with media, and EVERYTHING to do with the WORDS you use, and HOW the dictionary defines them..

noun: racism - The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

https://www.google.com/search?q=racism&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

excon

Hello again, tom:

Black lives matter.. The Black Lives Matter MOVEMENT sucks. It reminds me of Occupy. Lots of anger - NO solutions.

excon

Now ow that I can agree with!


Hello again, J:

It has NOTHING to do with media, and EVERYTHING to do with the WORDS you use, and HOW the dictionary defines them..

noun: racism - The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

https://www.google.com/search?q=racism&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

excon

Yes, you are good at twisting words without actually knowing the person who speaks them. You are a bully in the literal sense.

Its racist to even think Blacks or any other group that is doing the whining that they should be exempt from paying for their own current problems and their own current issues.
And its extremely racist when a white person gets charged with a hate crime just because the victim wasn't white.. while when was the last time a black person was ever charged with a hate crime against any other group even when they have a history of publicly making derogatory statements about other ethnic groups?

Lot of hypocrisy and racism happening on this topic... because the various ethnic groups are not being treated equally when it comes to hate crimes, meaning having it applied to them equally by definition.. Or there would be a lot more blacks (or Hispanics and even Asians) being charged with hate crimes... not only White people whom it seems to be targeted at almost exclusively..

Yes, you are good at twisting words without actually knowing the person who speaks them. You are a bully in the literal sense.Hello again, J:

I'm sure in your heart, you're not a racist. But, what comes out of your mouth is racist through and through.

excon

Hello again, J:

I'm sure in your heart, you're not a racist. But, what comes out of your mouth is racist through and through.

exconYour wrong. Again, you enjoy twisting words to hurt people.

Does it make you feel superior to twist people's words to fit your agenda?

Your wrong. Again, you enjoy twisting words to hurt people.Hello again, J:

I'm sorry you think this is about you and not the words you use... I quoted what you WROTE. I quoted the definition of racism... It didn't work. We're not alone in our divide.

excon

Ex..... reread J_9's post (#34) where she describes her community. She said, "Many of them"... not all. " Them" is simply a pronoun referring to the people she has interacted with or has knowledge of.

Come on now THEM refers to those unspeakable people you don't want to name because they are different, you don't use that word unless the descriptive word you do use will peg you as racist, etc

Police release video they say shows Ferguson suspect with gun (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/heavily-armed-oath-keepers-inject-new-unease-to-riot-hit-ferguson/ar-BBlDm8L?ocid=ansnewsreu11)

http://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BBlDvqC.img?h=486&w=728&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=850&y=662

Cops ain't telling him to get off the street!

Hello Doula,

Attributing bad behavior to a race, or even SOME of that race, is racism. If it's NOT meant to denigrate a race, and if it's behavior EVERY race engages in, then why even mention it??

How about if I said SOME Jews have hooked noses and are cheap bastards?? Is it NOT antisemitic because I used the disclaimer, some???

excon

Police release video they say shows Ferguson suspect with gun (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/heavily-armed-oath-keepers-inject-new-unease-to-riot-hit-ferguson/ar-BBlDm8L?ocid=ansnewsreu11)

http://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BBlDvqC.img?h=486&w=728&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=850&y=662

Cops ain't telling him to get off the street!


I don't know about Feguson, but in Virginia, Texas and a number of other states... its not illegal to open carry.

Hello again,

Those were the Oath Keepers helping the cops keep the ni... I mean the black folk under control..

Heavily armed 'Oath Keepers' inject disquieting element in Ferguson (http://news.yahoo.com/heavily-armed-oath-keepers-inject-unease-riot-hit-085709866.html#)

excon

I saw the videos in Ferguson, someone needs to keep them under control... because they were completely out of control by anyone's definition.

I have no issues with most black people....I work with a bunch of them....most of them good guys with a good work ethic...or they would have been gone long ago (Union shop but we had no use for anyone that didn't pull their weight or do was was required of them), but if I was a Business owner in Ferguson...I would pack up and leave to someplace that wasn't so full of anti-white bigots.

I have issues with anyone that thinks they are entitled to a free ride at anyone elses expense.....no matter what their racial background is.

If I was the President....I would have sent in the National guard the second day of the rioting when it was clear there were far too many people with free time on their hands causing trouble.... I'd have found a way to cut off welfare benefits to that entire city too ( like an Executive order that served a real purpose).....let them all work manual labor..they would be too busy or tired to be causing trouble when they needed to buy food and pay rent for once. There are 20+ Million illegals working in this country...run them out and there would be plenty of jobs for the welfare class. Cut off the benefits...and they would be looking to fill them.

It is apparent things are getting out of hand when the public goes armed in the streets, this is why gun culture is a bad thing

SO says the guy in the country where the Constitution is written in Pencil.

Written in pencil? It is written in concrete, it is very hard to change because you have to have not only a majority but also a majority of states. They are talking about a change to recognise first peoples, this is going to take years to get the wording right, last time they tried it, a republic, they didn't succeed, probably because the public couldn't understand the structure, nevertheless

Hello again,

How is it that armed white men can openly patrol streets but unarmed black people keep ending up dead? How is it that armed white men are not seen by law enforcement as a threat?

Things is really backwards in Ferguson.. But, this wrong WILL be righted, and it ain't gonna be purty.

excon

How is it that armed white men are not seen by law enforcement as a threat? This.

How about if I said SOME Jews have hooked noses and are cheap bastards?? Is it NOT antisemitic because I used the disclaimer, some???

excon

No. It's not.

You are part part of the problem. A BIG part of the problem. Race baiting. You are having fun with that aren't you?

Armed white men from outside Ferguson, exercising their rights in Ferguson, where the residents are fighting for their rights? What's wrong with THAT picture?

This.
This what?

I am an armed white woman. I respect the law. Please tell me how I'm a threat to society. This oughta be good.

Hello again,

How is it that armed white men can openly patrol streets but unarmed black people keep ending up dead? How is it that armed white men are not seen by law enforcement as a threat?

Things is really backwards in Ferguson.. But, this wrong WILL be righted, and it ain't gonna be purty.

excon

Good grief man you really don't watch the news much do you... because it happens all the time... its the libtard media that refuses to make a big deal out of it like they do when some criminals with a long rap sheet get shot being stupid.

Okay, seriously, why after so long away from the site did you decide to crawl out from under the rock you have been living under to come back and wreak havoc?

What is your agenda?

AMHD was trucking along just fine having civil discussions until you reared your ugly head.

You are breeding the hatred and loving it. It's people like you that intensified the Watts Riots 50 years ago.

If if racism is a problem, what is your solution? Rather than baiting us with your hatred, why don't you provide us with your solution.

Anybody armed in public may be considered a threat unless you know their intentions. I have no doubt an armed black guy in your neighborhood would elicit more than a few calls to the cops.

Why shouldn't we call a cop on you?

What is your agenda?Hello again, J:

Hate??? Looks like YOU'RE the one spewing hatred, talking about rocks an all.. I'm just doing what I always did, and that's upset the apple cart.. Nice to see you again too.

Want my solution??? End the drug war.. I believe you've heard me say that innumerable times.

excon

Hello again,

J brings up a good point - a SOLUTION..

I say the SYSTEM is systemically RACIST and needs to be changed. Others of you think the system is just fine, but we need to change those black people.. If I'm getting it right, there are posts on this thread that say, and I'm paraphrasing, black people don't understand family.. Black women get pregnant to collect more welfare. Black men never stay at home...

Look.. I know there are those of you who DON'T like this discussion, and you'll accuse ME of race baiting because I BRING it up, but the SENTIMENT is clear.. The system is just FINE. The problem is with black people.

excon

Whites have that same problem with no family unit and their kids at sea. Unfortunately, that's true in my own extended family. And parenting is the problem. Personal responsibility isn't being taught. It's much too easy to crank out a kid and fling him to the four winds. Methinks a couple should have to take courses first and get certified or licensed. After all, we can't even legally drive a car or get married or own a gun without some kind of education and/or legal paperwork.

Hello again,

J brings up a good point - a SOLUTION..

I say the SYSTEM is systemically RACIST and needs to be changed. Others of you think the system is just fine, but we need to change those black people.. If I'm getting it right, there are posts on this thread that say, and I'm paraphrasing, black people don't understand family.. Black women get pregnant to collect more welfare. Black men never stay at home...

Look.. I know there are those of you who DON'T like this discussion, and you'll accuse ME of race baiting because I BRING it up, but the SENTIMENT is clear.. The system is just FINE. The problem is with black people.

excon

Just stating the facts .


15 years later ,a Moynihan loyal economist named Paul Offner did a study and concluded that , of the black children born between 1967 and 1969, 72 percent received Aid to Families with Dependent Children before the age of 18. School dropout rates, delinquency, and crime, were rising in the cities. The 15 years since the report was written had witnessed the birth of millions of fatherless babies ,and the entrenchment of a permanent underclass. The effects were immediate after the War on Poverty was codified into law while also ignoring the Moynihan report .


https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/black-lives-only-matter-long-he-pays-815026.html#post3740384

The Moynihan report was also dismissed as racist and ignored . Then most of the things in his clarion call came true.

Hello again, J:

Hate??? Looks like YOU'RE the one spewing hatred, talking about rocks an all.. I'm just doing what I always did, and that's upset the apple cart.. Nice to see you again too.

Want my solution??? End the drug war.. I believe you've heard me say that innumerable times.

excon

Ah.. so now we get to your "Agenda", make drugs legal, Cocain, crank, smack... all of it so the non-drug abusers can be victimized by the addicts... maybe we should make drunk driving legal again too.


Whites have that same problem with no family unit and their kids at sea. Unfortunately, that's true in my own extended family. And parenting is the problem. Personal responsibility isn't being taught. It's much too easy to crank out a kid and fling him to the four winds. Methinks a couple should have to take courses first and get certified or licensed. After all, we can't even legally drive a car or get married or own a gun without some kind of education and/or legal paperwork.
The welfare state and liberalism is what taught the families to be like that... after all their precious self esteem might be hurt... and heaven forbid someone discipline a kid or let them know that there actually are winners and losers in everything every day.

You are 100% correct in identifying that as possibly the major cause .You did not see this type of decay the family unit in the 1950s . Back then the Blacks generally had a strong family unit that was also strongly reinforced by the neighborhood and the church. The rise of the welfare state contributed greatly to the demise of the black family as a stable institution. Hello again, tom:

You COULD say that... Or you COULD say that around that same time, the government declared a war on drugs that impacted black families WAYYYY more than it did whites.. I can show you the numbers if you like..

So, if you were to look around the black community TODAY, you COULD conclude that welfare did it.. Or, if you wanted to dig down a little deeper, you'd realize that the drug war did it.

By the way, there are more white people on welfare than blacks.. How come their family unit didn't dissolve?

excon

The welfare state and liberalism is what taught the families to be like that... after all their precious self esteem might be hurt... and heaven forbid someone discipline a kid or let them know that there actually are winners and losers in everything every day.
These extended family members of mine are die-hard conservative Republicans.

Hello again, tom:

You COULD say that... Or you COULD say that around that same time, the government declared a war on drugs that impacted black families WAYYYY more than it did whites.. I can show you the numbers if you like..

So, if you were to look around the black community TODAY, you COULD conclude that welfare did it.. Or, if you wanted to dig down a little deeper, you'd realize that the drug war did it.

By the way, there are more white people on welfare than blacks.. How come their family unit didn't dissolve?

excon
In many ways the White families are under the same pressures . But you give misleading stats . Yes more whites receive welfare BUT as a percentage of the population there isn't any comparison.

These extended family members of mine are die-hard conservative Republicans.They can have have misguided beliefs just as well as Die Hard Liberal Democrats... we don't claim to be perfect.


Hello again, tom:

You COULD say that... Or you COULD say that around that same time, the government declared a war on drugs that impacted black families WAYYYY more than it did whites.. I can show you the numbers if you like..

So, if you were to look around the black community TODAY, you COULD conclude that welfare did it.. Or, if you wanted to dig down a little deeper, you'd realize that the drug war did it.

By the way, there are more white people on welfare than blacks.. How come their family unit didn't dissolve?

excon

I don't think you have been around many Welfare recipients then. Happens with the Whites as well as the Hispanics on Welfare too, probably even the Asians (but I didn't personally know any of those on welfare) Talk to anyone that lives near an Indian Reservation... its just as bad there if not worse than it is with Blacks.

They can have have misguided beliefs just as well as Die Hard Liberal Democrats... we don't claim to be perfect.
In my extended family's case, it's the parenting. No consistency, no interest in giving consequences.

Yes more whites receive welfare BUT as a percentage of the population there isn't any comparison.

That makes no sense. Got a link to back that up with.

The drug war is but one factor in the decline of families (blacks and minorities impacted the most). Throw in predatory lending, redlining, gentrification, along with a few recessions (Wall Street gets bailed out by taxpayers), and regular "market adjustments", privatising prisons, sending blue collar jobs to Mexico and overseas, and redirecting budgetary priorities (specifically a few off the budget WARS), imminent domain, and reclassification of real estate, all of which poor people (notice I didn't assign a race) have been blamed for by fearmongers and TRUE race baiters and haters (for their profit of course) makes for the hollowing out of the middle classes while the social safety nets have been weakened considerably.

I don't buy into blaming the people caught up in the crap, not the kids, or the parents, because survival with no resources is a beeyarch, and welfare without a hustle and flow is miserable. It's no wonder that people give up on the system and fall to the underground economy that's better than nothing. To be clear we are not talking great majorities of people, just the ones who make the news and are demagogued as being the whole problem, a lousy excuse to do nothing about poverty, crumbling schools, and neighborhoods, because they don't deserve help.

TRAPPED is the word I use for the poor people I have encountered. You would be surprised at the ones who escape, but they never include those stories in the narrative to vilify those with less.

Hello Doula,

Attributing bad behavior to a race, or even SOME of that race, is racism. If it's NOT meant to denigrate a race, and if it's behavior EVERY race engages in, then why even mention it??

How about if I said SOME Jews have hooked noses and are cheap bastards?? Is it NOT antisemitic because I used the disclaimer, some???

excon

The bad behavior was attributed to the people who J heard. They could have been any race, but in this example they were black... which is the topic of the thread. No race has a monopoly on bad behavior and no one has made such a statement.

Your remark about Jews is not racist... some Jews do have hooked noses and are cheap. Just as some Swedes, some Indians, some _____ fill in the blank.

Racism comes into it when a person believes an entire race of people are inherently inferior.

Tal... most of those poor people are there because they refuse to learn from their mistakes... or insist despite being told... to not live beyond ones means.

I grew up around poor people... I was poor myself... in fact I was poor for a fair number of years out of college... it was 7 years before I was even able to afford to have my own apartment... Most of them do that......I myself did it before I learned my lesson.

As far as "Predatory lenders" Interest rates and such are based on risk... most of them have poor credit for a number of reasons... mostly from what I have seen... prioritizing wants over obligations and needs... meaning paying their debts on time doesn't rank high on the MUST do list for many. Yeah... I knew a lot of those... also knew a few that did have good credit because they took obligations seriously.

People that don't pay on time pay higher rates... just like people who rack up tickets and accident pay higher insurance rates...

Of course... people could just refuse to insure or lend to high risk people... because the returns aren't worth the risk otherwise. Then people would bellyache about that...

That dog don't hunt my friend, simply because you assume what your saying is true from YOUR experience. I respectfully submit that YOU and others only have a very small cursory view of poverty in America and because YOU escaped doesn't mean every one can. Most of the poor people on welfare I know, work two jobs have two kids, one old raggedy car between both working adults, or the single ones commute on public transportation an hour each way.

Most poor people I know work, but one unexpected expense like the car breaks down, the kids get sick, utilities spike up, sends them into a financial turmoil they may take a year to get out of. A layoff, reduced hours, screws them royally. Those payday loans screws them royally for much longer.

And my friend just between me and you, you have to be loony as a goon to think a multinational billion dollar company (Walmarts to name ONE), can make big bucks employing minimum wage workers, who still need food stamps, and rent and utility subsidies (from taxpayers) to make it ALMOST for a month. There are tens of millions working poor in America, mostly women and children who don't deserve your disdain, nor criticism, just because they aren't as smart, skilled, or LUCKY as you have been in your life.

You must be one of those CRINOS (Christian In Name Only) who doesn't get But For The Grace Of God Go I. For as hard as you work my friend, and I have no doubt you did, and still do, you should count your blessings that you have escaped the trap of poverty, and prospered. Hope they don't farm your job out to some foreign land and tell you to hit the bricks.

Can't you just be grateful for what YOU have, and not begrudge another for not being so fortunate?

That dog don't hunt my friend, simply because you assume what your saying is true from YOUR experience. I respectfully submit that YOU and others only have a very small cursory view of poverty in America and because YOU escaped doesn't mean every one can. Most of the poor people on welfare I know, work two jobs have two kids, one old raggedy car between both working adults, or the single ones commute on public transportation an hour each way.

Most poor people I know work, but one unexpected expense like the car breaks down, the kids get sick, utilities spike up, sends them into a financial turmoil they may take a year to get out of. A layoff, reduced hours, screws them royally. Those payday loans screws them royally for much longer.

And my friend just between me and you, you have to be loony as a goon to think a multinational billion dollar company (Walmarts to name ONE), can make big bucks employing minimum wage workers, who still need food stamps, and rent and utility subsidies (from taxpayers) to make it ALMOST for a month. There are tens of millions working poor in America, mostly women and children who don't deserve your disdain, nor criticism, just because they aren't as smart, skilled, or LUCKY as you have been in your life.

You must be one of those CRINOS (Christian In Name Only) who doesn't get But For The Grace Of God Go I. For as hard as you work my friend, and I have no doubt you did, and still do, you should count your blessings that you have escaped the trap of poverty, and prospered. Hope they don't farm your job out to some foreign land and tell you to hit the bricks.

Can't you just be grateful for what YOU have, and not begrudge another for not being so fortunate?

I'm a realist... who grew up in the poorest part of the state I was raised in (which was not a wealthy state). I also probably know more poor people than you do... ever hear of Appalachia? Know the people and the culture there? I do... I grew up around it. Maybe not in the heart of it... but out on the edges it was still there and very real.

Also... are you insinuating Poor people are inherently stupid? Because it appears that is exactly what you are doing... though some of them certainly are.

The last thing anyone should do when they have a drop in income... and that's borrow more money, or keep spending stuff on things you can live without... they should not have been living high on the hog (for their income) before that happened... most of the so called "Poor" people have extravagant expenses for their income level... one of them are cell phones , not just the parents but the kids too. My wife and I don't even have smartphones with data plans,. Bet they have a X box or Playstation too...

If I was so LUCKY... I wouldn't have been almost 30 before I could have my own place... and 40 before I didn't have to carefully budget paychecks... and would have had to carry 100% of the cost of my college education because a poor white person during Jimmy Carters term, couldn't get squat for assistance... unless they were valedictorians. I worked hard for everything I have....I paid for it with a lot of sacrifice and hard work.....none of it was handed to me.

smoothy you speak of working hard but opportinity is what you had and you prospered over time. I know what is is to be poor and to struggle financially for years, some of it is bad decision making, particularly when young and some of it is just inadequate income and having the haves begrudge what you do get. How many people today are poor because of lack of opportunity. A humanistic society would say these people don't have a right to exist because the state must support them in some way, and those who have opportunity and pay tax begrudge those who don't, instead of making opportunity.

Yes some poor people spend their time in worthless pursuits, but who provides these diversions?

smoothy you speak of working hard but opportinity is what you had and you prospered over time. I know what is is to be poor and to struggle financially for years, some of it is bad decision making, particularly when young and some of it is just inadequate income and having the haves begrudge what you do get. How many people today are poor because of lack of opportunity. A humanistic society would say these people don't have a right to exist because the state must support them in some way, and those who have opportunity and pay tax begrudge those who don't, instead of making opportunity.

Yes some poor people spend their time in worthless pursuits, but who provides these diversions?

The diversions are there for those who can afford them... of course... good judgement plays a factor. Same with Casinos... some people just shouldn't be within 10 miles of one... but you can't bar entire classes of people from them based on economic status.

As far as opportunity... I grew up in a HORRIBLE place for opportunity... its better now... but still bad by the standards I am comfortable with. Thus I don't live in that area... I had to move away from it to find work after I finished college. and that was 34 years ago.

Have I made some bad choices in my adult life... damn right I have... a few whoppers. One had me penniless and almost homeless overseas for almost an entire year (so obviously Unemployment insurance was not an option and lacking actual citizenship there at the time precluded me from many of the social safety nets they had).

You and I might have similar backgrounds, I grew up in the coalfields of New South Wales and worked in the steel industry in my youth. We were poor, lived in public housing but fortunately my father had a job so eventually I was able to move away. In those days opportunity was everywhere, I'm talking 50-60 years ago. I would not have the education I do if I hadn't done it for myself and that led to opportunities. And yes I remember six months in Scotland well, working in a bar for low wages and drinks, not being a citizen sucks.

So all this should allow us the emphaise with the poor but in reality it doesn't. We know what lessons must be learned and applied, something that eludes many today

You and I might have similar backgrounds, I grew up in the coalfields of New South Wales and worked in the steel industry in my youth. We were poor, lived in public housing but fortunately my father had a job so eventually I was able to move away. In those days opportunity was everywhere, I'm talking 50-60 years ago. I would not have the education I do if I hadn't done it for myself and that led to opportunities. And yes I remember six months in Scotland well, working in a bar for low wages and drinks, not being a citizen sucks.

So all this should allow us the emphaise with the poor but in reality it doesn't. We know what lessons must be learned and applied, something that eludes many today


The reason we don't have empathy... is because we know why most of them remain in the situation they are in... same reason people stay in abusive relationships every day... its familiar and they know it... and making the step into the unknown and the uncertainty that goes with it to try for something better... is something they would rather avoid. I for one don't have empathy for someone that complains about their situation...but refuses to take the steps to improve it. Or even try.

I could probably be doing a lot better than I am right now....but I haven't taken the steps or the risk to try for more....because I'm comfortable where I am now....which is well above a lot of people....and probably actually below a least a few that might be reading this....

So should I blame anyone for that? Nope....because I am an adult...and my life is a result of the choices I have made over those years...good or bad. As is everyone else's.

That's all great, and everyone has a story of learning, and while some take longer than others, more people than you think move on to do better, and actually very few stay long term in the rut of poverty. You know for yourself it may take many YEARS to learn, and correct mistakes, and find better ways of doing things, and you also know some mistakes are well beyond your control, like a layoff, or downsizing, or losing a job after 20 years, a few kids, and a mortgage, or even as you say, a divorce, or failed relationship.

Those are huge life changing events to go through. Has nothing to do with being stupid at all, but limited would be a kinder more accurate term.

Hello again,

The Oath Keepers showed up in Ferguson.. They're heavily armed, right wing white guys, in camo. The cops didn't raise an eyebrow.

How do you think the cops would have reacted if heavily armed Black Panthers showed up???

Really... You can tell me.. I WON'T be surprised.

excon

depends ,are they there to help restore order or to be part of the anarchy ?

Oathkeeprs aren't the ones assaulting cops. Rioting, Looting or burning buildings. HUGE difference.

Hello reality deniers:

If armed black men showed up in Ferguson, the SECOND the cops saw their guns, a battle would ensue..

What??? You believe the cops will walk up to them POLITELY to ask them why they're there??? DUDE!!!

excon

The Black Panthers unlike the Oath Keepers have a long history of criminal activity... not the least is Voter intimidation at the polls in Philadelphia... which was recorded on video.


The only reason they haven't had charges filed on them for that YET was A Black Attorney general was breaking the law and covering their behinds..

Besides...comparing Oath Keepers to the Black Panthers is apples to oranges...the White Equivalent of the Black Panthers is the Ku Klux Klan....and you could bet if they showed up armed the cops would say something.

Black Panther has been following me ever since I Poke in to their bushes...
Now she lives at the same Motel and took over this Public Libraries Central Hub. Printing DATA for Indian RAW Agent " Viker"...
You be careful. She dirvies around the City, Wealthy area and she will Steal their Mail from the Mail BOX then reprint them to Colon their Financial History.. Be very very careful around them. I am very nervous. She even use a Phone carrier name " ORANGE and Red Pocket" I am unheard of them..




The Black Panthers unlike the Oath Keepers have a long history of criminal activity... not the least is Voter intimidation at the polls in Philadelphia... which was recorded on video.


The only reason they haven't had charges filed on them for that YET was A Black Attorney general was breaking the law and covering their behinds..

Besides...comparing Oath Keepers to the Black Panthers is apples to oranges...the White Equivalent of the Black Panthers is the Ku Klux Klan....and you could bet if they showed up armed the cops would say something.

Black Panther is a RING from Baltimore and Prince George County, MD..
They drives around the wealthy area of the town , steal their Mails from the mail box, use their telephone lines to impostor them.. to COLON their financial history.
They work for Indian Raw Agent " Viker".. Who has many recurit from
NJ, specially heavily democratic Meyor.. city and Iranian Business Man..
They are the Knights of all IRANIAN Business Man.. Be wear near website "Zappos" inc, Zulily Inc.. Those are the sites they Charge their victim Caredit cards.

The Black Panthers unlike the Oath Keepers have a long history of criminal activity...Hello again, smoothy:

Don't get distracted by the name Black Panthers.. Just pretend that some well armed black folk with NO identification, showed up in Ferguson. Would the cops welcome them like the Oath Keepers, or would they GUN THEM DOWN???

excon

Hello again, smoothy:

Don't get distracted by the name Black Panthers.. Just pretend that some well armed black folk with NO identification, showed up in Ferguson. Would the cops welcome them like the Oath Keepers, or would they GUN THEM DOWN???

excon

You can bet the Oath Keepers had identification on them... and none of them have a criminal or mental health history preventing them from having firearms.

Also... when exactly were the last white riots in the USA... and where? Don't remember seeing them on the news, reading it in the paper, or hearing it on the radio.

You can bet the Oath Keepers had identification on them... and none of them have a criminal or mental health history preventing them from having firearms. Also... when exactly were the last white riots in the USA... and where? Don't remember seeing them on the news, reading it in the paper, or hearing it on the radio.Hello again, smoothy:

So, if the black guys had ID's, the cops would let 'em strut around town with their AR-15's slung over their shoulder??? What planet do you live on?

But, I agree with your conclusion.. You and the cops believe that armed whites show up at demonstrations to keep the peace.. But, armed black people show up, because, you know, THEY start riots - so they should be gunned down on site.

excon

So its not like you guys are racist, just white lives matter more than black lives... I get that. Just curious if we are still on the 3/5ths standard, or the one drop makes you black, standard.

Let me know if I am putting words in your mouth, or twisting them around, we wouldn't want to mistake you for racists by the words you speak, or write. I honestly didn't know a white guy can go across state lines, and openly carry his weapon wherever he goes... no questions asked.

Hello again, smoothy:

So, if the black guys had ID's, the cops would let 'em strut around town with their AR-15's slung over their shoulder??? What planet do you live on?

But, I agree with your conclusion.. You and the cops believe that armed whites show up at demonstrations to keep the peace.. But, armed black people show up, because, you know, THEY start riots - so they should be gunned down on site.

excon

Didn't see any whites rioting in Baltimore or Ferguson... In fact I haven't seen any news footage of whites rioting in the USA ever. Can't believe the same media that buries news stories about unarmed WHITE people being shot by police and pushing news stories defending black criminals being shot while assaulting cops is responsible.

THe need to take away Welfare benefits in any city that experiences rioting such as this... 99% of the rioters are on welfare and don't work. Otherwise they would have more respect for private property and not have time to pull these stunts...

And if it was white or hispanic welfare recipients doing it... I'd be saying the same thing. But its always the same group doing the same things...

You as well as many should know... if there is a particular crime being committed with a certain MO... the Law enforcement authorities are going to look for people with a history of committing that type of offense first. Doesn't matter WHAT the crime is... that's a universal approach because most of the time it is someone who has done it before. White collar embezzlement... arson at black churches... riots in black communities... looting... car jacking every type of crime has a certain group that's usually associated with it most of the time.


That's all great, and everyone has a story of learning, and while some take longer than others, more people than you think move on to do better, and actually very few stay long term in the rut of poverty. You know for yourself it may take many YEARS to learn, and correct mistakes, and find better ways of doing things, and you also know some mistakes are well beyond your control, like a layoff, or downsizing, or losing a job after 20 years, a few kids, and a mortgage, or even as you say, a divorce, or failed relationship.

Those are huge life changing events to go through. Has nothing to do with being stupid at all, but limited would be a kinder more accurate term.

Oh some people really are stupid... some are just stubborn... others are just lazy.

The truly stupid people can't help themselves... the rest can... but don't.

In fact I haven't seen any news footage of whites rioting in the USA ever.
You musta missed the '60s and '70s.

Burden of proof smoothy by all means pull the welfare benefits for any person convicted of civil unrest or any crime but a scattergun approach isn't a recipe for anything but more unrest. People get upset about issues but civil rights issues are about treatment of minorities. Next you will be telling us you haven't seen any videos of police brutality.

You musta missed the '60s and '70s.

Actually I did, and for good reason... I came of age during the Jimmy Carter disaster. At the very END of the 70's. I was 9 in 1970....very few small kids if any really got what was going on in the 60's, during the 60's. And not many older people did in the rural area I grew up in even in the 70's.


Burden of proof smoothy by all means pull the welfare benefits for any person convicted of civil unrest or any crime but a scattergun approach isn't a recipe for anything but more unrest. People get upset about issues but civil rights issues are about treatment of minorities. Next you will be telling us you haven't seen any videos of police brutality.
Possibly... but when their gravy train is at risk of coming to a screeching halt based on actions of others in their same group. YOu would see a new found civic responsibility in weeding out the riff raff that currently covers for each other.

Personally I think you are on a witch hunt or is that a which hunt. We know black communities are disadvantaged and there may be some disorder among them when one gets killed by police. What surprises me is more aren't killed by these white militant gun tottin vigilantes. Might give the lie to the idea that blacks are lawless?

Crime statistics prove its not the white gun vigilantes committing the crimes... its the black's, followed by the Hispanics who commit the greatest percentages.

Nobody FORCES them to do it...its the choice THEY make that puts them in the situation.

Its not a crime to be poor...but it is when you decide to break the law... There are poor that have a solid moral compass that obey the law...then there are those that feel they are entitled to other peoples stuff, Who don't.

Crime statistics prove its not the white gun vigilantes committing the crimes... its the black's, followed by the Hispanics who commit the greatest percentages.

Nobody FORCES them to do it...its the choice THEY make that puts them in the situation.

Its not a crime to be poor...but it is when you decide to break the law... There are poor that have a solid moral compass that obey the law...then there are those that feel they are entitled to other peoples stuff, Who don't.
And we're back to parenting. Remember the video of that mother whomping her teen son over the head? And it takes a village.... What part of the village are any of us?

Yes more whooming over the head needed as opposed to pulling a gun and using it. It brings us back to attitude and what attitude can you have when you can't see a future? No amount of whooming over the head changes the facts. These people behave the way they do because they have no future and so street life, small time dealing, etc, becomes attractive. A neighbourhood riot might be the most excitement these people have had and certainly an opportunity to make a point and as soon as they see a cop...

Yes more whooming over the head needed as opposed to pulling a gun and using it. It brings us back to attitude and what attitude can you have when you can't see a future? No amount of whooming over the head changes the facts. These people behave the way they do because they have no future and so street life, small time dealing, etc, becomes attractive. A neighbourhood riot might be the most excitement these people have had and certainly an opportunity to make a point and as soon as they see a cop...

Its not about not seeing a future... they listen to and idolize this Rap crap... look up to the criminal element and act like that to get "street cred" with their homies... many of whom choose a life of crime. So the key word here is peer pressure and personal accountability... the former it the only influence they care about and the latter is something that is devoid in most of the younger generations...And some of the nicest black people I know and respect (who are older generations)....are the first to say that very same thing.....So its not the right wing Whites that say it....a lot of the older black folks (meaning early 60'S and older mostly) who were raised to show respect to others and their property...and do whats right have been saying it far longer.

Its not about not seeing a future... they listen to and idolize this Rap crap... look up to the criminal element and act like that to get "street cred" with their homies... many of whom choose a life of crime. So the key word here is peer pressure and personal accountability... the former it the only influence they care about and the latter is something that is devoid in most of the younger generations...
You sound a bit like my grandfather. Unfortunately, it's not a passing teenage phase anymore.

You sound a bit like my grandfather. Unfortunately, it's not a passing teenage phase anymore.
Yet it doesn't change who is responsible... that remains themselves. Not everyone else. Nor does it mean the rest of us have to accept it.


Actually last month a Handyman who was doing work at a neighbors....and is in his late 60's....and is black. Told me this very thing I just said, you should have heard his opinions about what the blacks were doing in Ferguson...he made ME sound liberal in my disdain. He's a nice guy...old school, older generation, we get along great..I've known him for about 2 years now...I wish he lived on my street instead of 20 miles away.

Well smoothy it is a pity the experiment of Liberia failed, otherwise you could have shipped them all back. Thing is respect is something learned with age. I suggest you have no choice but bulldoze these troublesome neighbourhoods. It is a solution we have used in some areas of public housing, you could call it the move on solution, but then I expect we are too radical for you, even our left wing is far to the right of the way you do things. We even do things like have welfare payments carried out in a manner where it cannot be spent on booze, gambling, etc and kids don't go to school, no welfare. I don't know if it works but the older people are in favour of it.

It appears to be a scientific fact that it takes twenty-five years to get a brain, until then we should find a way to keep them locked up, military service seems a solution

Well smoothy it is a pity the experiment of Liberia failed, otherwise you could have shipped them all back. Thing is respect is something learned with age. I suggest you have no choice but bulldoze these troublesome neighbourhoods. It is a solution we have used in some areas of public housing, you could call it the move on solution, but then I expect we are too radical for you, even our left wing is far to the right of the way you do things. We even do things like have welfare payments carried out in a manner where it cannot be spent on booze, gambling, etc and kids don't go to school, no welfare. I don't know if it works but the older people are in favour of it.

It appears to be a scientific fact that it takes twenty-five years to get a brain, until then we should find a way to keep them locked up, military service seems a solution
I agree... mandatory military service would do them good. Make them learn respect... make them learn the planet doesn't revolve around their wants and needs. Make them think of others and the greater good... or their fellow troops will beat it into them. Since they clearly aren't being taught this at home.

Would even give them a long term employment opportunity if they aren't total screwups.

How about rebuilding a strong vibrant middle class with some decent paying jobs so the youths can actually aspire to something and thrive instead of just surviving with the crumbs of what's left over. Then you wouldn't have to keep blaming them for being rebellious and refusing to cooperate in something that clearly doesn't work for them.

You can talk all you want about what they are doing in Ferguson (Or anywhere in the country), but it's crap until you listen to what's been done to them also. There are enough facts that cannot be ignored and it's obvious with all due respect to the older black guy, today's youth ain't going for it any more. Nor should they. You do well to listen, while you are hollering about someone else's flaws and what they should do about it.

Glad you liked the old black guy, Smoothy, who was likely stroking your ego to keep his cash flow going because he knew only agreeing with your crap was the ONLY way to get along with you. He has probably dealt with many closed minded narrow thinkers in his time, and knew you would never listen to anything he had to REALLY say anyway.

You may as well listen though because the demographics of power are changing and soon, very soon, you won't be able to abort, deport, shoot, incarcerate, or isolate, and subjugate your problems away, so quit hollering about yourself and what YOU want because other want things to. They intend on getting it and have been struggling for it a long time.

When you listen you will learn that black lives do matter, and you will understand why they riot for it. Try this on for size, maybe you're screaming, and hollering, and name calling, and blaming, and using, and abusing your fellow man, has pissed him off.

Cut it out Tal, the only thing that matters over there is money, without it you are screwed

oh the irony. It is the progressive policies that stunt the growth of a vibrant 'middle class' .


the 1980s, with a conservative, free-market Republican in the White House, were a boom time for black America.
Indeed, Andrew Brimmer, the Harvard-trained black economist, the former Federal Reserve Board member, estimated that total black business receipts increased from $12.4 billion in 1982 to $18.1 billion in 1987, translating into an annual average growth rate of 7.9 percent (compared to 5 percent for all U.S. businesses.
The success of the black entrepreneurial class during the Reagan era was rivaled only by the gains of the black middle class.
In fact, black social scientist Bart Landry estimated that that upwardly mobile cohort grew by a third under Reagan's watch, from 3.6 million in 1980 to 4.8 million in 1988. His definition was based on employment in white-collar jobs as well as on income levels.
All told, the middle class constituted more than 40 percent of black households by the end of Reagan's presidency, which was larger than the size of black working class, or the black poor.
The impressive growth of the black middle class during the 1980s was attributable in no small part to the explosive growth of jobs under Reagan, which benefited blacks disproportionately.
Indeed, between 1982 and 1988, total black employment increased by 2 million, a staggering sum. That meant that blacks gained 15 percent of the new jobs created during that span, while accounting for only 11 percent of the working-age population.
Meanwhile, the black jobless rate was cut by almost half between 1982 and 1988. Over the same span, the black employment rate – the percentage of working-age persons holding jobs – increased to record levels, from 49 percent to 56 percent.
The black executive ranks especially prospered under Reagan. The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission reported that the number of black managers and officers in corporations with 100 or more employees increased by 30 percent between 1980 and 1985.
During the same period, the number of black professionals increased by an astounding 63 percent.
The burgeoning of the black professional, managerial and executive ranks during the 1980s coincided with a steady growth of the black student population at the nation's colleges and universities in the 1980s.
Even though the number of college-aged blacks decreased during much of the decade, black college enrollment increased by 100,000 between 1980 and 1987, according to the Census Bureau.
Meanwhile, the 1980s saw an improvement in the black high school graduation rate, as the proportion of blacks 18 to 24 years old earning high school diplomas increased from 69.7 percent in 1980 to 76 percent by 1987.
On balance, then, the majority of black Americans made considerable progress in the 1980s.
More of us stayed in high school, graduated and went on to college. More of us were working than ever before, in better jobs and for higher wages. The black middle class burgeoned to unprecedented size, emerging as the dominant income group in black America. And black business flourished, creating wealth in the black community.


The good that Reagan did for black America | The San Diego Union-Tribune (http://www.utsandiego.com/uniontrib/20040611/news_lz1e11perkins.html)

mandatory military service would do them good. Make them learn respect... make them learn the planet doesn't revolve around their wants and needs. Make them think of others and the greater good... or their fellow troops will beat it into them. Since they clearly aren't being taught this at home.Hello smoothy:

I'm sitting here thinking of the worst kind of things to say to you, but everything I think of ISN'T bad enough.. You are a despicable human being. You are EVERYTHING that's wrong with our society today.

excon

Morning Tom, I was there in the 80's, and King Reagan grew the middle class with FLEXIBLE monetary policy through raising and lowering TAXES as needed, and some pretty liberal deficit spending AND NO WARS (Even in the ME, after Lebanon remember, and the Iran/Iraq conflicts). It was also the start of businesses selling off to foreign labor and closing older factories for the big move south, AND brought cheap labor into the service markets with AMNESTY for many Mexican immigrants.

That was when bi partisan policy making was at it's best, before pappy George screwed up by making promises that deviated from what Reagan had established (Fiscal flexibility) and Pierrot spilled the beans about the big money extraction that was coming that stopped people from getting their foot in the door (opportunities). In a nutshell, people had a few bucks to spend and us 70's boomers could expand as part of a growing service economy (The Start of the New World Order). We have a thread about it in Current Events from back in the day.

So forget that revisionist propaganda, because there were many other factors going on that allowed King Reagan and the conservatives to look better than they were. At least Reagan ALLOWED enough trickle to keep the masses fairly docile, a concept modern repubs have forgotten about in their zeal for MO' MONEY, power, and influence.

So don't give me this how conservative help the Blacks the most when they were helping themselves FIRST.

Well Tal how do you like your new world order now, up to your ears in debt, or perhaps I should ask Tom that question. Take a lesson from Greece boys both the right wing and the left wing lesson. You cannot ignore 50% of your population otherwise they will punish you at the polls and elect a radical who will be worse than your worst nightmare. It is no good saying the middle class prospers with lower taxes, you cannot prosper without income and those jobs you exported aren't coming back. You have lost the opportunity to pick a fight with Iran so you will have to wait for the next one

The world revolves around a dollar, and we should emulate the Greeks? Surely you jest. Our debt is still easily manageable even if the right wing hollers otherwise. Save your fiscal advice for the clueless Chinese, and the CLUMSY Iranians.

Ignore Netty and his tough talk, because people with big sticks and KNOW HOW to use them don't have to holler. Doesn't IRAN know that nuking Israel is suicide? ure they do. Netty should be laughing at them and their provocative threats.

As for the NWO Clete, do the math, and plot the trend lines on a graph. Only then can you grasp what Tom and the wingers are REALLY hollering about. The fat cats will be put on a severe diet from all those years of gorging on American PIE.

What tal doesn't mention is that the so called 'bi partisan policy' meant that needed cuts in the budget have not been made. Here's another dirty secret ; WE have been in a deficit spending budget since 1940 with only brief periods of surplus. The most notable time was when the Gingrich controlled Congress compelled Bubba to go along with their budget . But even those years were helped by unusual high tax receipts due to the dot com boom. There were also some surplus years while Harry Truman was b*tching about a 'do nothing ' Republican Congress ;and some surplus years at the end of Ike's Presidency .

Clete think about it . We claim there are no jobs for Blacks and other minorities and yet we allow a flood of illegals to cross our border every day . Don't you see the disconnect there ? Where are the jobs ? Either they are there and the illegals are taking them because Blacks don't want them OR the illegals are crossing the border to tap into our very generous social welfare system . Neither scenario is acceptable .

Clinton closed a lot of military bases, after he raised taxes when he got elected AFTER Pappy (read my lips) Bush was throw out. Bubbles are now called revenue streams in case you forgot.

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/Articles/Bill%20Clinton%20and%20the%20Decline%20of%20the%20 Military.html

(Yes Newt went along with it basically)

Two wars and a huge ten year tax cut is what the first APPOINTED president in history brought us, thanks to his brother cheating on the ballots. Blame that on the black people too! You wingers ALWAYS do!

How about rebuilding a strong vibrant middle class with some decent paying jobs so the youths can actually aspire to something and thrive instead of just surviving with the crumbs of what's left over. Then you wouldn't have to keep blaming them for being rebellious and refusing to cooperate in something that clearly doesn't work for them.

You can talk all you want about what they are doing in Ferguson (Or anywhere in the country), but it's crap until you listen to what's been done to them also. There are enough facts that cannot be ignored and it's obvious with all due respect to the older black guy, today's youth ain't going for it any more. Nor should they. You do well to listen, while you are hollering about someone else's flaws and what they should do about it.

Glad you liked the old black guy, Smoothy, who was likely stroking your ego to keep his cash flow going because he knew only agreeing with your crap was the ONLY way to get along with you. He has probably dealt with many closed minded narrow thinkers in his time, and knew you would never listen to anything he had to REALLY say anyway.

You may as well listen though because the demographics of power are changing and soon, very soon, you won't be able to abort, deport, shoot, incarcerate, or isolate, and subjugate your problems away, so quit hollering about yourself and what YOU want because other want things to. They intend on getting it and have been struggling for it a long time.

When you listen you will learn that black lives do matter, and you will understand why they riot for it. Try this on for size, maybe you're screaming, and hollering, and name calling, and blaming, and using, and abusing your fellow man, has pissed him off.

Obama and the Democrat party for even longer has worked hard to destroy the Middle class... not build it up. They have done this by ever increasing taxes while exempting the lower class from paying anything and in fact handing them extra money back far in excess of what they initially might have paid.

Why work harder to get ahead when you bump into a higher tax bracket and end up with even less money than you were making before?

OH, and that old black guy.....Hasn't gotten a dime from me...and in fact has saved my neighbors a significant amount....talking them OUT of a lot of work, and could have charged a lot more for what he has done. Yeah there ARE a lot of people who talk the talk to get their hand in your wallet....I know them when I see them.....this guy is one of the rare honest people out there. I know a sales pitch when I hear it...and he has never pitched one my way.

Funny how Democrats can't seem to believe all blacks aren't Democrat....or think they are entitled to a free ride....or that some believe in personal accountability.

Plus he doesn't have to come knocking on my door when he is done for the day to talk instead of heading home to beat the traffic like most wold.....if as you suggest....his reasons are other than I said. He knows I do all my own work because I know how to do it....and don't hire people to do it. Unlike most of my other neighbors. And most of our conversations weren't political in nature....and his comments were volunteered. Not a follow-up response to other comments earlier.

Let's keep in mind here that 99% of the black population (at least the ones I know personally) are VERY hard workers and excel at whatever they do. We are talking a mere minority of the population who are wreaking the havoc and giving a bad name to the black population as a whole.

I know several who work 2 full time jobs, can run circles around their Caucasian counterparts and do an all around better job in the long run.

I have the utmost respect of my colleagues of color who have worked their way out of the system to become upstanding members of society. Most of these colleagues are disgusted with the stigma that is being attached to the black population due to the actions of the minority of their culture. They are frustrated with the sense of entitlement some people express. This includes black and white alike.

Go ahead, twist my words, put words in my mouth. You would understand if you knew me personally.

1.
2.
3.
GO!

Go ahead, twist my words, put words in my mouth. You would understand if you knew me personally.

1.
2.
3.
GO!Hello again, J:

That didn't sound racist at all..

But, if there's any twisting of words going on here, it's YOU who's doing it.. If you think what you said above is the same thing you said the other day, you're DREAMING, girl..

excon

Hello again, J:

That didn't sound racist at all..

But, if there's any twisting of words going on here, it's YOU who's doing it.. If you think what you said above is the same thing you said the other day, you're DREAMING, girl..

excon

Apparently you don't know me as well as you think you do.

@J


Go listen to the media, form your opinions. When you live it on a daily basis, come back and we'll discuss.

I tried but you only had eyes for Ex, he ain't cuter than me! I have lived it to on a daily basis. Racism is alive and well and black youth is demanding you listen. No they aren't the 1% you claim are the problem, they are the mass that lives it daily. Just like you. If you are frustrated then you should have empathy for their frustration too.

I'm sure the frustrated mother you quoted didn't want to be at the hospital at 2 in the morning either, and is it possible she had no one to watch the child at home?

No worries, I am well aware of your long hard hours on your feet, and take that as due consideration. You do sound better today.

Clinton closed a lot of military bases, after he raised taxes when he got elected AFTER Pappy (read my lips) Bush was throw out. Bubbles are now called revenue streams in case you forgot.

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/Articles/Bill%20Clinton%20and%20the%20Decline%20of%20the%20 Military.html

(Yes Newt went along with it basically)

Two wars and a huge ten year tax cut is what the first APPOINTED president in history brought us, thanks to his brother cheating on the ballots. Blame that on the black people too! You wingers ALWAYS do!

Geeze when are you going to give up that fiction ?


Don't worry though ;your hero the Goracle is thinking of throwing his hat in the ring. Bwaaaahaaaaaahaaaaahaaa !!! All we need now is for JFKerry to announce too !!!

Vote Analysis: Bush Wins, Again - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=93642)

In fact, Bush's 537-vote margin of victory would have increased to 1,665 under the ballot-counting standards Gore's supporters had advocated, according to a review conducted by The Miami Herald, its parent company Knight Ridder, and USA Today.

Well thanks for admitting it was YOU guys that gave us Bush, and we all know that was a BUST!

@J I tried but you only had eyes for Ex, I'm not a one man woman.
@J Racism is alive and well and black youth is demanding you listen. And I won't disagree. Racism is alive and well.
@J No they aren't the 1% you claim are the problem, they are the mass that lives it daily. Yes, they are. For the most part the black population are hard workers. They are trying to get out of the system. They want to better themselves. There are the few that find it easier to live off the system, sell drugs, be thugs, etc. This is the minority, but it's what makes the mainstream media. It's not what is representative of the culture as a whole.
@J I'm sure the frustrated mother you quoted didn't want to be at the hospital at 2 in the morning either, and is it possible she had no one to watch the child at home? Typically, no. And I mean no disrespect, but this is how it happens. When a black woman comes to my unit thinking she is in labor, she is accompanied by a multitude of friends, family members and neighbors. When a Caucasian woman comes up to my department, she is accompanied by her spouse or significant other. Only one or two family members versus 15 or 20. Yes, 15 or 20.
@J If you are frustrated then you should have empathy for their frustration too. Empathy is my middle name.
@J No worries, I am well aware of your long hard hours on your feet, and take that as due consideration. You do sound better today. I'm happy to know that you think I sound better today, but in all actuality I am worse. To be brutally honest, not racist, I delivered a baby to an emergency cesarean section last night, father was there prior to the delivery but was nowhere to be found afterwards. Mom bled out, and almost died. Yes, she was black, and I saved her life. The thing that upsets me is that many of you listen to the mainstream media and make concrete decisions. Very few of you actually live what is going on. You can watch your media, whether it be FOXNEXS, MSNBC, CNN, etc. but until you actually live it... And I've lived it.

Well thanks for admitting it was YOU guys that gave us Bush, and we all know that was a BUST!
Look at what you guys gave us... OWEbama... someone that has actually made Jimmy Carter look good... before he dies of old age.

Sorry, but Bushes worst moments were better than OWEbamas best. And anything good Obama has done requires a lot of long hard difficult looking to find. I can't remember any... but I do remember that there was one thing.

Guess that's why you want another Bush in office. Must be frustrating living and working among all those liberals.

Guess that's why you want another Bush in office. Must be frustrating living and working among all those liberals.

Who are "all of these people" you speak of...

Last I've heard Jeb doesn't have a very strong following inside the Republican circles.

Most of what liberals complain about was brought down on them by their own liberal politicians...

The major failing in Liberal philosophy is that its exactly like the instincts of crabs....You can have an open Bushed basket filled to the top....and none will ever rise and escape because the other crabs pull any that try back into the basket.

Tal how big is the black youth you speak of couldn't be much more than 5% of the population, but in actual numbers that is a lot of people with nothing better to do. These and other poor groups are those who may never have a job because the jobs aren't there despite the allegation they must be there because the illegals keep coming. The illegals keep coming because they have nothing where they are and if you turn off the welfare tap they might stop coming excepting something is better than nothing. I'm guessing there are no farm jobs in the cities where the black youth are and plenty of people prepared to run a nice little sweat shop

Tal how big is the black youth you speak of couldn't be much more than 5% of the population, but in actual numbers that is a lot of people with nothing better to do. These and other poor groups are those who may never have a job because the jobs aren't there despite the allegation they must be there because the illegals keep coming. The illegals keep coming because they have nothing where they are and if you turn off the welfare tap they might stop coming excepting something is better than nothing. I'm guessing there are no farm jobs in the cities where the black youth are and plenty of people prepared to run a nice little sweat shop
you think the millions of illegals here are doing farm work ? get a clue ,the bulk of them are settling in the urban areas ;especially where idiot progressives declare their towns 'sanctuary cities " . Like I said ,the lure here has to be either the jobs ,or the very generous welfare system . With the labor participation rate at historic lows it is absurd to suggest that we need more workers ;especially low skilled workers .

Tom, how is it you have a welfare system that supports non-citizens? Don't these people have to satisfy visa, birth, or residency or other criteria? This is like shooting yourself in the foot. I understand the problem, we already have enough camel drivers, and we have a million camels, but you don't have any camels. You notice Tom I also spoke about sweat shops so I'm not foolish enough to think the jobs are agricultural, the more people you have the more construction you have, etc

Tom, how is it you have a welfare system that supports non-citizens? Don't these people have to satisfy visa, birth, or residency or other criteria? This is like shooting yourself in the foot.

not my idea. Now you will hear that illegals don't qualify for welfare . This is true technically ;BUT our laws say that anyone born inside the country is an American citizen .So the children of illegal immigrants that are born in the United States are eligible for the full spread of government welfare benefits, including Social Security and Medicare.Now that these illegals have given birth to U.S. citizens, the families are eligible for benefits . Not only that ,but once the children are born ,it's impossible to deport the parents because that would mean separating parents from kids ,or deporting an American citizen also.

Yes it is shooting ourselves in the foot with a cannon. This is why Trump has caught on .

You notice Tom I also spoke about sweat shops so I'm not foolish enough to think the jobs are agricultural, the more people you have the more construction you have, etc

Yes they have moved on to jobs where someone could make a living in the trades . American employers are part of the problem there too . But we have to start by controlling the borders and ,enforcing 'E-Verify ' for all employment .

Verify what? That they have a social security number? By your own words undoubtedly they will have or they are very recent arrivals. I can understand that once you wanted all these new arrivals, "give me your huddled masses" or something like that, but if you keep going like that there will be standing room only. No Trump is right bulld a big concrete fence it might keep 90% out and it will employ a lot of people, or you could just legalise drugs and take over the market, it would pay off your deficit quickly

American employers are part of the problem there too .

You mean the JOB creators are part of the problem?

Hello again,

You KNOW who Mark Fuhrman is, don't you??? He's the racist ex-cop who FOX News puts on all the time to opine about police relations with the black community... What's funny, is that NOBODY mentions that he's a VIRULENT racist. They listen to him with pinched noses and creased brows as though he's saying something IMPORTANT, as though they should LISTEN. It's as if they don't even KNOW he's a racist.. If they were fair and balanced, they'd have somebody like ME on pointing out that he's a RACIST BASTARD..

This thread sounds like that to me..

I'm a simple man. I BELIEVE we're all the same. If ONE group starts acting differently, BECAUSE we're all the same, the cause is EXTERNAL. It simply CAN'T be them, because we're all the same.. Therefore, if you point to THEM, or even SOME of them, as being the cause of their own problems, you're a racist.

Anybody wanna say I'm wrong??

excon

You mean the JOB creators are part of the problem?

if some of them are breaking the law they should be duly punished.

Catch me if you can, wonderful system free enterprise means you never have to be responsible for anything

Catch me if you can, wonderful system free enterprise means you never have to be responsible for anything
the system is in place . all it takes is the will to enforce existing law, something the emperor has problems with in his rush to create law by executive fiat .

The problem with illegals tapping into the social welfare system could easily be solved by changing the 'birthright ' provisions of the law. This comes from a misinterpretation of the 14th Amendment . Under the amendment children of LEGAL immigration have automatic citizenship. The lawmakers who gave us Title III of the Immigration and Naturalization Act of 1965 expanded birthright to children of anyone born in the country . It is an absurd law ,and the only other country with such expansive definitions of citizenship is Canada. It is probably the biggest single cause of illegal immigration (not jobs as the narrative says ) .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_tourism

What seems strange to me Tom is the source of illegal immigration into Canada is the US, if their laws are so bad they should have the problem too. Your problem isn't Obama it is the administrations of many years who have not enforced the law. I recall all the things that you blamed on Obama that were the legacies of various other administrations. Now I'm not defending him, no doubt he has made his mistakes but he has had help, heapin helpins of hospitality among them

You're right Clete, previous presidents have granted AMNESTY for illegals and congress has gone along with it.

Illegal Immigrants: How Many Times Has U.S. Granted Large-Scale Amnesty? (http://www.newsmax.com/FastFeatures/illegal-immigration-amnesty/2015/08/11/id/669659/)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Reform_and_Control_Act_of_1986


....and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Chamber_of_Commerce) persistently opposed sanctions against employers.


It's not just Obama as you say, but I told you to not listen to the wingers version of the FACTS. If they get the White House in 2016 everything Obama has been talking about will be done and of course they will take credit for it. Obstruction, stalling, and hollering repeal this or that is their WHOLE platform.

You would think they would repeal legal stealing and slavery, by the "job creators" but they haven't.

What seems strange to me Tom is the source of illegal immigration into Canada is the US, if their laws are so bad they should have the problem too. Your problem isn't Obama it is the administrations of many years who have not enforced the law. I recall all the things that you blamed on Obama that were the legacies of various other administrations. Now I'm not defending him, no doubt he has made his mistakes but he has had help, heapin helpins of hospitality among them

When did I say Obama was the problem (except to point out his use of executive fiat to bypass laws he doesn't like ) ? The problems origin I pointed out was in the Johnson Adm.

You're right Clete, previous presidents have granted AMNESTY for illegals and congress has gone along with it.

Illegal Immigrants: How Many Times Has U.S. Granted Large-Scale Amnesty? (http://www.newsmax.com/FastFeatures/illegal-immigration-amnesty/2015/08/11/id/669659/)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Reform_and_Control_Act_of_1986



It's not just Obama as you say, but I told you to not listen to the wingers version of the FACTS. If they get the White House in 2016 everything Obama has been talking about will be done and of course they will take credit for it. Obstruction, stalling, and hollering repeal this or that is their WHOLE platform.

You would think they would repeal legal stealing and slavery, by the "job creators" but they haven't.

As I have discussed many times ;Simpson -Mazolli was one of those 'bipartisan deals you progressives love to talk about where your agenda gets priority in exchange for future obligations that amazingly never happen. In this case Amnesty came first on the promise of border security measures . Well we found out how good you guys are at keeping your end of the deal . Then you wonder why the Republicans are less inclined to make these type of deals again ? Because they don't want to end up like Charlie Brown .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=055wFyO6gag

Come off it Tom, you guys balk at doing what it takes fiscally to secure a border. The Senate Immigration reform bill has all the provisions you guys have asked for, yet it died in the house. A repub house no less.

Talk about strawman arguments! You're good.

No Tal he just twists the facts to exclude the republican malaise and blames the democrats. Obama has a hard job governing an ungovernable country and so will his successor. A two party system is an excuse for deadlock

Come off it Tom, you guys balk at doing what it takes fiscally to secure a border. The Senate Immigration reform bill has all the provisions you guys have asked for, yet it died in the house. A repub house no less.

Talk about strawman arguments! You're good.

you mean the gang of 8 shamnesty ?

Show me the border control provision in the plan . That was a classic example of what we get from bi-partisan deals ........nothing .Marco Rubio admits he made a mistake supporting it.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_of_Eight_(immigration)


No Tal he just twists the facts to exclude the republican malaise and blames the democrats. Obama has a hard job governing an ungovernable country and so will his successor. A two party system is an excuse for deadlock

Clete ,if you lived here you would be on my side because there is no way your country would tolerate millions of illegals taking jobs and sucking on the teat of the welfare system.

This is the link Tom intended to post.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Security,_Economic_Opportunity,_and_Immigra tion_Modernization_Act_of_2013


.... It would also make the border more secure by adding up to 40,000 border patrol agents......

The non-partisan Congressional Budget Office (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_Budget_Office) estimates this reform bill would reduce the US fiscal deficit by US$197 billion over the next ten years and by $700 billion by 2033.[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Security,_Economic_Opportunity,_and_Immigra tion_Modernization_Act_of_2013#cite_note-5) Its report also states that, if this bill becomes law, US wages would be 0.1 percent lower in 2023 and 0.5 percent higher in 2033 than under current law.[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Security,_Economic_Opportunity,_and_Immigra tion_Modernization_Act_of_2013#cite_note-6) The Social Security Administration (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_Administration) says that this bill, if it becomes law, would help add $276 billion in revenue over the next 10 years while costing only $33 billion..........

You're welcome

The House opposed it because of the lessons they learned from Simpson -Mazzoli . Here's the facts ;you will never get "comprehensive immigration reform " because we know your side is not trustworthy .Pass border security reform 1st then we'll talk .

This is what Rubio said after his painful lesson ..“But what I’ve learned is you can’t even have a conversation about that until people believe and know—not just believe, but it’s proven to them—that future illegal immigration will be controlled. That is the single biggest lesson of the last two years.”

The House opposed it because of the lessons they learned from Simpson -Mazzoli . Here's the facts ;you will never get "comprehensive immigration reform " because we know your side is not trustworthy .Pass border security reform 1st then we'll talk .

This is what Rubio said after his painful lesson ..“But what I've learned is you can't even have a conversation about that until people believe and know—not just believe, but it's proven to them—that future illegal immigration will be controlled. That is the single biggest lesson of the last two years.”

Translation-Any excuse to obstruct Obama will do, and deny him credit for anything will do. Stall and obstruct is repubs MO.

And the people suffer.

Translation-Any excuse to obstruct Obama will do, and deny him credit for anything will do. Stall and obstruct is repubs MO.

And the people suffer.

The people have suffered plenty with 61/2 years of the emperor's reign.

The people have suffered plenty with 61/2 years of the emperor's reign.
All we can do is hope Donald Trump becomes President and pulls us out of the terrible slump we're in, builds that impenetrable wall between us and Mexico, and gets Planned Parenthood back in operation!

Clete ,if you lived here you would be on my side because there is no way your country would tolerate millions of illegals taking jobs and sucking on the teat of the welfare system.

Tom there is no way we would tolerate this shambolic form of government. I live in a place where parliamentary deadlock is common however the parties find a way to either negotiate the pass of legislation or abandon an unteniable position. We do have mechanisms for overcoming blockages and the party that controls the house controls the government.

As far as illegals are concerned we have the position that if you are not supposed to be here you will be placed in detention and deported. This is not to say we don't have illegals, there are overstayers but you cannot just walk across the border or rock up and expect to be given entry. I sympatise with a nation with borders as long as yours with hordes standing on the other side, but we have stemmed the tide, even though we know these people now go somewhere else. In your case they have nowhere else to go

Tom you say your people have suffered under the emperor, I wonder how much you will suffer under Trump whose only skill is to say "you're fired!"

My life Matter; My families Life Matter; My friends life matter; All my loved ones life Matter; My co-worker life matter; All of the above.. anyone I care their life matter to me. They have mixed color and skin, some could be related to KKK( their Grand parents may be, who knows? They are White); some are Arab and Middle Eastern.. Jews.. Olive Skin.. some Dark.. Skin African, Indian Vegetarian.. Asian with Slant eyes and White Skin..

WHATEVER; to me it the ALL LIFE MATTER. ALL AMERICAN LIFE MATTER.
DO NOT CARE FOR PEOPLE WHO TRY TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE SYSTEM;BECAUSE THEY ARE MINORITY/BLACK. IT IS TIME TO MOVE ON.

No one suggests your life doesn't matter, it is Tom who suggests that his form of government should look after the haves and ignore the have nots. There was a time when the republicans championed the anti-slavery cause, it would seem they would reimpose it. I think that position was expedient, what they really wanted to do was destroy the democtrat power base

All we can do is hope Donald Trump becomes President and pulls us out of the terrible slump we're in, builds that impenetrable wall between us and Mexico, and gets Planned Parenthood back in operation!

you can't possibly believe that ;although I agree that he is the 2nd biggest statist/socialist in the race.



Tom you say your people have suffered under the emperor, I wonder how much you will suffer under Trump whose only skill is to say "you're fired!"

Don't presume for a second I support that AH


No one suggests your life doesn't matter, it is Tom who suggests that his form of government should look after the haves and ignore the have nots. There was a time when the republicans championed the anti-slavery cause, it would seem they would reimpose it. I think that position was expedient, what they really wanted to do was destroy the democtrat power base
complete lie and distortion of the positions I take .

I thought Trump was the epitome of a capitalist. Now he's a communist? Or do you imply there is a similarity between capitalists and communists?

OMG!! :O... Tom is a COMMUNIST!!

<Didn't see that coming, we should have a coming out the closet party! ;D>

I thought Trump was the epitome of a capitalist. Now he's a communist? Or do you imply there is a similarity between capitalists and communists?

OMG!! :O... Tom is a COMMUNIST!!

<Didn't see that coming, we should have a coming out the closet party! ;D>

Trump favors single payer heath care . Trump favors a punitive wealth tax. Trump is in favor of planned parenthood. Trump is in favor of the 'assault rifle ' ban. He in no conservative .

Trump favors single payer heath care . Trump favors a punitive wealth tax. Trump is in favor of planned parenthood. Trump is in favor of the 'assault rifle ' ban. He in no conservative .

You mean to say you have actually found an american with common sense who wants to lead? And what do you think; the guy must be a communist. So you have gone from left wing imperialist to right wing communist, what a land of contradictions

I wouldn't mind a conservative president Tom, except the current crop are idiot clowns.

I wouldn't mind a conservative president Tom, except the current crop are idiot clowns.

You wouldn't mind a conservative President ? I guess you wouldn't if they held statist progressive policy positions

It might be useful for you to elect a president who has the confidence of the House. I observe Trumpkin wants a test applied to immigrants as to whether they are good or bad people, I would have thought breaking the law automatically placed you in the bad box, but apparently not. The test is to be a little more subjective like whether you have the money for an extortinate visa fee

You wouldn't mind a conservative President ? I guess you wouldn't if they held statist progressive policy positions

I would settle for thoughtful but that's rare for repubs, let alone conservatives these days. They are all screaming Yo-Yo's and that includes the Trumpster, who just came out yesterday and said he would deport all the undocumented aliens.

I would settle for thoughtful but that's rare for repubs, let alone conservatives these days. They are all screaming Yo-Yo's and that includes the Trumpster, who just came out yesterday and said he would deport all the undocumented aliens.


Here's the flip flopper from ONE MONTH AGO

(around the 5 minute mark) .

When CNN's Dana Bash asked Trump whether he favored a path to citizenship for illegals he says “Right now, no,” ... “we'll see, later, down the line, who knows what's going to happen.”

http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2015/07/29/donald-trump-dana-bash-interview- the-lead.cnn

That's quite a shift in a month to "We're going to keep the families together, but they [those in the country illegally] have to go,"

His position paper without that is reasonable .
Nationwide E-Verify, visa-tracking for foreign visitors, cutting off aid to sanctuary cities, making overstay of a visa a criminal offense, tightening up on H-1B visas to prevent their being used to import cheap labor, ending birthright citizenship, etc .

Trump pretty much echos mainstream Republican views as have been articulated by a number of the candidates . Some have spoken at great length on the Senate floor with them. The biggest difference I see is that many of the Chamber of Commerce type Repubs have called for more H1B-s (although they have been pretty silent since the abuses by companies like Disney were exposed ) .

This proposal to gather them up and deport them ,although good red meat for the masses ,sound undoable to me . For one thing ,he doesn't have the law on his side regarding anchor children ,so he will be spending a lot of time battling it out in court . Since the emperor uses executive fiat ,perhaps he thinks a Republican POTUS should have that unconstitutional power to make law also .

Here in NY the Guardian Angels are again patrolling Central Park because the commie Bill deBlasio has let crime again get out of control. The Guardian Angels do not arm themselves but are schooled in the art of self defense.

Guardian Angels return to New York's Central Park - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11806737/Guardian-Angels-return-to-New-Yorks-Central-Park.html)

Perhaps you could have them patrol the streets of other US cities to deter gun violence

Perhaps you could have them patrol the streets of other US cities to deter gun violence

Oath Keepers parading on the south side of Chicago?? Never going to happen.

Oath Keepers parading on the south side of Chicago?? Never going to happen.

I was referring to the Red Capped Guardian Angels not the gun tottin vigilantees

There is a Chicago Chapter of the Guardian Angels. They mostly patrol the Chicago Transit Authority .It was organized by Miguel Fuentes .

Perhaps they should extend their activities

They are not the police dept and don't pretend to be . When they first started in the bad old days of NYC ;when the murder rate numbered in the thousands annually ,they were considered a mob of vigilantes by the Koch Adm . But they proved over time that they were not threat to anyone except the mugger on the street. They broke up muggings and did the occasional citizen's arrest. They created a liason with the police and the local communities and were eventually accepted as an asset. Over time ;with proper policing by the Rudy Guilliani and Michael Bloomberg administrations they became less important and sorta faded away .

The reason for this comeback here is that the current commie in chief has let policing ;especially quality of life enforcement laws deteriorate . This is a deliberate attempt in my view because he governs from an ideological view where he believes the police are the problem ,and not the thugs .

When Central Park was safe it was averaging 40million visitors a year. But crime is up 26 % in Central Park and it is becoming an unsafe place for residents and visitors to be. The Guardian Angels can only do so much on their own. I also don't believe de Blasio will have their back.

Better I think if the young protesting minorities who wish to be heard and acknowledged would vote in the off year elections they could maximize the gains that have already been made. Just being angry and excited during a presidential election year is clearly not enough to effect the change they scream about.

While the right continues to erode the rights of voters and even seek to diminish the power that the youths have in ever growing numbers, the youths just holler and give no actions to their rather loud voices. What a waste in my mind to elect a democrat to the white house, and then abandon him to the whims of the right wing repubs.

Holler, blame, and call names is a right wing tactic that is a poor substitute for not taking their young a$$es to the polls every 2 years instead of just every 4!

the emperor has done an aweful lot of damage for someone who is constantly being "obstructed " .Perhaps that whole obstruction thing is a tired old meme that had no merit .

Where you see 'erode the rights of voters ' ;I see guaranteeing the integrity of the franchise . Why don't you just admit it . You want everyone undocumented and ineligble to vote . The Dems would not survive in this country without vote fraud.



Better I think if the young protesting minorities who wish to be heard and acknowledged would vote in the off year elections they could maximize the gains that have already been made. Just being angry and excited during a presidential election year is clearly not enough to effect the change they scream about.


You know why they really scream ? Because they are beholden to a party that they give almost all their vote to ;and after the elections they are completely ignored by the elected officials they voted for . I can't blame them for that frustration ;But I suggest the cure would be to diversify their vote and make their elected officials fear that they will lose their support ....or even better ; try some conservative management of the cities they reside in . NYC is a much better place because of the time that Rudy and Bloomy managed the town (despite my critique of Nanny Bloomy ,he was an effective Mayor ).

a tired old meme that had no merit
|
|
v

emperor has done an aweful lot of damage

You want everyone undocumented and ineligible to vote

That's what YOU want. That's why repubs purge eligible voters along with the ineligible ones, and make it harder for eligible voters to vote. (TYPO?)


The Dems would not survive in this country without vote fraud.

You would love to think that, as unrealistic, and factually false as that is, but it plays well with the racists, and loonies, and bible thumpers, that make up the base of the repub party.

Valid ID at the Polls assures legal voters get to vote and illegal voters don't.

You can't apply or collect welfare, food stamps... or get section 8 housing vouchers if you can't provide a legal form of ID.

Why should you be allowed to vote without one.


Only reason to oppose that is because of actually wanting people with no right to vote, to vote and vote often.

You want everyone undocumented and ineligible to vote That's what YOU want. That's why repubs purge eligible voters along with the ineligible ones, and make it harder for eligible voters to vote. (TYPO?)

no grammar issue You want every undocumented and ineligble person to vote .

I am not opposed to ID, never have been. But when a gun permit is acceptable, and not a student ID (See Texas, already struck down by federal judges AGAIN this year) then I just get suspicious.

And then there is this nugget to consider,

Voter Purges | Brennan Center for Justice (http://www.brennancenter.org/publication/voter-purges),

And for fact we have on record many republicans admitting to making it harder for eligible voters to vote, mostly elderly and minorities, to insure repubs win. (Links provided of these confessions in previous threads on this subject).

Student ID's are not government issued... and easily faked or duplicated. Not to mention non-standard...and issued to illegals who have no right to vote, proof they attend school is not proof of voting eligibility.. Illegals can't get a gun permit. And gun permits require a proof of ID...as well as a background check to get, unlike School ID's.

In the school district I am bled dry in property taxes to support...28% of the students (admitted by the district) are illegals, no idea how many are children of Foreign dignitaries or other foreign workers...none of whom are eligible to vote

Even in Community colleges or Universities...Illegals and foreign students attend, and have student ID's. None of them are eligible to vote.

Smoothy enlighten me, in a country where voting is not compulsory why would an illegal immigrant vote? I would have thought that an illegal immigrant would want to keep their head down and not draw attention to themselves in any way. Surely there are standards for voter registration and voter identification? It seems a strange debate about what is a valid ID. It just appears strange to me but then I live in a place where we try to take the least complex path to a solution and the idea is to get the job done not prevent the job from being done

Smoothy enlighten me, in a country where voting is not compulsory why would an illegal immigrant vote? I would have thought that an illegal immigrant would want to keep their head down and not draw attention to themselves in any way. Surely there are standards for voter registration and voter identification? It seems a strange debate about what is a valid ID. It just appears strange to me but then I live in a place where we try to take the least complex path to a solution and the idea is to get the job done not prevent the job from being done
They are usually Paid to do it by groups Like ACORN... who still exist only under different names.

Wow I wish someone would pay me to vote instead of just inconveniencing me to try and find a polling place in the usual place. I'm waiting until they perfect online voting, I fail to understand why we don't already have the facility we already interact with various government agencies online and will do the census on line next year. Here's an idea as part of the Census let's fill in our voting preference and do away with the crap.

You have to understand Clete that the right wing needs an excuse to losing the national elections because of increasing minority turnout. Rather than appeal to all voters they pander to their own and raise the specter of voting fraud by the dems to greater proportions than it is (You notice they never have voting fraud by their side!).

Every party panders to their own Tal and sometimes dirty tricks get involved, that happens everywhere but it becomes less likely when you have a full turnout. Obama managed to mobilise the masses, but a one man show doesn't provide government as has been clearly demonstrated. Someone must concentrate on getting a majority where it counts, which is right across the board. Personally, I cannot understand a system that can elect a head of state who is of a different persuasion to the House in the same election

You have to recognize that fewer of us here just vote a straight party line, as states and regions have their own personalities and likes, and dislikes. Even when one party rule the branches of government the power out of power has many options to keep the party in power in check somewhat.

I fully agree though that all the parties have their share of tricks, traps, and shenanigans. Goes without saying that independents are a growing deciding factor in the repub/dem war, and party labels can be changed at a drop of a hat for any reason.

Sure, in the "hood" area of Atlanta, where I used to live. They would have buses that would pick up people from the parks, streets, under the bridges, give them a little money, and a free meal after they vote.

Clete to answer your questions . smoothy is correct in that there are many states with same day registration ;early voting , and yes illegals with forged id's or stolen id's do register and vote . Mass registration drives aren’t able to give due attention to eligibility , and so illegal immigrants will still get through even under the threat of stiff penalty .

Now why would they take the risk ? smoothy again correctly notes that sometimes there is a payout .But even without that incentive ,simply stated ,they are voting for the party that most imitates Santa Claus with the givaways ...the ones that create 'sanctuary cities ' so they can avoid consequences for being here illegally ... the party that promotes people dependency on the government .
btw Guess which party promotes the idea that illegals SHOULD be allowed to vote ? Yup ,the Dems.
Most Democrats Think Illegal Immigrants Should Vote - Rasmussen Reportsâ„¢ (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/may_2015/most_democrats_think_illegal_immigrants_should_vot e)

Their major money patron George Soros has agreed to pour $5 million into a national effort to protect and expand early voting.

Secretaries of state from Ohio and Kansas testified to Congress in February tha they won’t have the tools to sniff out illegal immigrants who register anyway, ignoring stiff penalties to fill out the registration forms that are easily available at shopping malls, motor vehicle bureaus and in curbside registration drives.

Those tolerant of illegal immigrant voting ,like tal ,often camouflage their arguments by stating that voter ID laws, which are meant to discourage unlawful voting of any sort, are being aimed at minorities. There is no evidence to back up that assertion. Instead ,in North Carolina, minority voter turnout actually increased since the passage of North Carolina’s election integrity bill.

The Dems are taking their lead from their elected officials . Wendy Rosen, The Democratic candidate for Maryland’s 1st Congressional District , was forced to end her candidacy after it was discovered that she committed voter fraud by casting a ballot in both Maryland and Florida in multiple political contests .

Connecticut Rep Christine Ayala was caught voting early and often. She was charged with 19 felony counts. Her arrest forced Connecticut Dems change their message from there is no voter fraud to fraud doesn’t occur — but when it does, we won’t tolerate it.

Let's face facts . The Dems will not be able to hold together the Obama coalition in 2016 ,not even among the Blacks . So they need a new source of turnout . Hence their courting of illegals.

Quite frankly ,having a state provided drivers license is not an adequate id. California is handing out drivers licenses to illegals and has been doing it since the beginning of the year .
California issues 110,000 driver's licenses to undocumented immigrants - San Jose Mercury News (http://www.mercurynews.com/immigration/ci_27610974/california-issues-110-000-drivers-licenses-undocumented-immigrants)

The licenses read "not acceptable for official federal purposes" . But states run elections ,and not all elections are Federal . In Nevada where there is a similar law ,a full 80% of the applicants fail the reading test . But that requirment hasn't stopped California from issuing them . California expects to give 1.4 million licenses to illegals in the next 3 years .

and party labels can bechanged at a drop of a hat for any reason.

talking about Trump again ?

Lets Put the Black Asides for a Minutes.. I have witness in real life and will be able to proof .. in to the Court of the Law...

From North Baltimore through In New England's..South up to Orlando,FL.. 98% Drug Dealer, Heroine Dealer,
Prescription Drugs Distributors, Pimp are INDIAN. Not American IDNIAN. I mean South East Asian, and their Victims are Welfare.. WHITE.. some Black too !


How this culture has changed? Do you believe, Bobby Jindal played a role on this? They Imported Drugs from Canada trough Maine.


Should we have to wait another 250 years to Scream, " White Life Matters"?


Come on.. make two label.. Criminal are criminal .. Black or White, or even IVY League Grad.. Asian.

Yes Miss there are lots of criminals among immigrants and you find that all over, where I come from the lebanese have taken over the motor cycle gangs and drug distribution. Those people came here as refugees. Asian crime gangs have been around a long time. There are more and more opportunists on the move because of wars and economic problems but there are lots of home grown criminals too and poverty breeds it