Hello everyone.. Recently I found out I was pregnant and I'm only 16 and my boyfriend is 17. It was a major stress attire when we found out but my family has assured me that things were going to be all right and that they would pay for everything. My biological dad is in prison and my mom and me don't get a long too well. Her and my step dad are still willing to pay for everything and take custody over the baby.. Because DCFS didn't want me living with my mom at the time because of how much my mom and I argue I was sent to this maternity home in a town an hour and a half away. My boyfriend ever since he found out I was pregnant was distant but was supporting any decision I made.. We made.

We got into a really bad argument the day before I got here and out of anger I told him I was done.. He said no, but then I practically forced him to agree. Usually when this would happen between us in the past we would forget about it and move on. But the next morning he was telling me he loved me and that he wanted me to call him as soon as I got there and so I did and as soon as I get there he tells me that he was serious and that he isn't happy with me anymore and told me to "get help" for my anger issues. I've been crying every day since I got here and begged for him back.. He keeps telling me how he's not happy with me and how how he's happier now and doesn't like me anymore but still loves me.

As for the baby he just wants me to put the baby up for adoption and doesn't want to pay child support if I keep the baby. It's so hard to make these decisions because we had a set plan and now that's broken and I have no idea what is best for the baby. Yes adoption but it would be so hard for me because if I can't have him, then I have a little mini version of him. And no matter what he'd be apart of my life. I want this baby I want to keep him but I don't know what to do.. I thought maybe if I'd consider adoption that my boyfriend would come back but he told me that he doesn't want to... I've been messaging him and out of anger I told him I found someone else.. He said he didn't care at all and that he's happy for me..

I need advice.. I'm just really hormonal right now. We were dating for way over 2 years..

Being a pregnant teen is hard. It's time you stop thinking about yourself and start thinking about what is good for the baby. Even if Hunter comes back to you now, the odds are against him staying forever.

You and your mom fight. Your father is in prison. You have no way to financially support this baby. You have mental health issues This is not a healthy environment to raise a child.

You you won't have a "mini" him. You will gave a BABY that is solely dependent on you to either live or die.

Adoption isn't easy, it takes a strong woman who loves her baby and wants that baby to get the best that life can offer. In your case, adoption might be the best for this innocent child.

Hello everyone.. Recently I found out I was pregnant and I'm only 16 and my boyfriend is 17.

So... no birthcontrol then? I assume that the flirtations with the new girl amounted to nothing then?


It was a major stress attire when we found out but my family has assured me that things were going to be all right and that they would pay for everything. My biological dad is in prison and my mom and me don't get a long too well. Her and my step dad are still willing to pay for everything and take custody over the baby.. Because DCFS didn't want me living with my mom at the time because of how much my mom and I argue I was sent to this maternity home in a town an hour and a half away. My boyfriend ever since he found out I was pregnant was distant but was supporting any decision I made.. We made. We got into a really bad argument the day before I got here and out of anger I told him I was done.. He said no, but then I practically forced him to agree. Usually when this would happen between us in the past we would forget about it and move on. But the next morning he was telling me he loved me and that he wanted me to call him as soon as I got there and so I did and as soon as I get there he tells me that he was serious and that he isn't happy with me anymore and told me to "get help" for my anger issues. I've been crying every day since I got here and begged for him back.. He keeps telling me how he's not happy with me and how how he's happier now and doesn't like me anymore but still loves me. As for the baby he just wants me to put the baby up for adoption and doesn't want to pay child support if I keep the baby. It's so hard to make these decisions because we had a set plan and now that's broken and I have no idea what is best for the baby. Yes adoption but it would be so hard for me because if I can't have him, then I have a little mini version of him. And no matter what he'd be apart of my life. I want this baby I want to keep him but I don't know what to do.. I thought maybe if I'd consider adoption that my boyfriend would come back but he told me that he doesn't want to... I've been messaging him and out of anger I told him I found someone else.. He said he didn't care at all and that he's happy for me.. I need advice.. I'm just really hormonal right now. We were dating for way over 2 years..

This is a big pickle. I think your boyfriend has a point, you're impulsive with severe anger issues. If you want to be a couple why would you tell him that you're with someone else? So close after a breakup will make him think that you were cheating on him and that the kind might not be his. I think he's done some serious thinking and I think he's done. This is the last time and he's not going to be putting up with you any more. Everyone has there breaking point and when that is reached nothing will bring them back. If you kisses can't keep him, why would your tears bring him back?

I think you need to talk to him. You need to come to a closure on the relationship and need to figure out what to do with the child. Is there going to be child support? Custody? What? Adoption? What is your future plan going to be? Once you decide what roll he will play in your life, and you know that it is going to be your romantic partner, you need to talk to your parents and figure out care for the child. You've got the future of many people hanging in the balance because of that child in your belly.

Your mother/step father are going to take custody of the baby, which sounds like they're willing to take care of the child once born. Is this true?

I don't believe that you're going to get him back, I think the best you can hope for is a cordial relationship with him and with your child.

At 16, you can't comprehend how long the next 18 years of a baby's life will be. The idea that the baby will be a mini version of your lost boyfriend will fade very very fast, and so will your feelings for him.
And no, you don't 'get' him back. He reached that point of no more, even though he cares. You pushed him away one too many times, and you can't take the last one back. I know - I tended to do that my entire adult life, although in a less dramatic way, with no fighting.
There is absolutely NOTHING romantic about many long years of caring for someone dependent on you, someone who will rob you of freedom and the fun a teenager should have. Lousy parents? Don't replace them with a baby, just for that unconditional love, which only lasts a short time.

Your mother and stepdad WANT to take and support the baby, and you have legal rights about how that would be done! So start finding out what they are in your state. A social worker at the place you are going will know, and you could eventually get a lawyer somehow, and at least study about the laws on your own before you sign anything. Adoption to strangers is an option too, and might be helpful if there is going to be years of fighting over how the arrangement with your parents is working.

Hello, I have accepted the fact that I will not be getting my boyfriend back. He is also the father of my unborn baby. I'm 16 and he's 17 years old. Recently he'd broken up with me over a fight we had in the relationship. He wants nothing to do with me or the baby, but at the same time does not want to pay child support and wants the baby to have his last name still if I decide to keep the baby. I am staying at this maternity home until my mom who I've had problems with in the past when it comes to arguments about her drinking habits, is settled down into her new apartment she recently got. My due date is in August and the maternity home is about an hour and a half away from where her apartment is.

I'm trying to decide on what is best for my baby. Right now, I don't think I could emotionally handle the baby being put up for adoption because in my family it's just never been acceptable. I however, have been trying to think about the pros and cons. The father of the baby would rather me put the baby up for adoption and with his words "be done with it." As much as that hurts, I wish I could be like the other women here and put the baby up for adoption but I still don't know ALL the pro's and con's. Selfishly about a week ago, I was thinking all about my ex and would do ANYTHING to get him back, I asked him if I was to put the baby up for adoption if there would be a chance of us getting back together. He told me no, so I realized that it was pointless to even ask. So now all I keep thinking about is my baby and what I'm going to decide is best for him.

I honestly think he would be better off with someone who can take care of him, but at the same time I don't. If that makes any sense. I want him so bad, but I know I am not capable right now. I still want to live life as a teenager.. My mom and me talked and she told me she understood that I still wanted to be a teenager and still wanted to go to college right after high school and that I didn't have time, patience, or the money for a baby right now. Originally my boyfriend and I were going to get a place for him, me and the baby because he'll be 18 soon and I'll be 17 soon. My whole family were going to help and pay for everything financially until him and I were financially capable on our own. But since he broke up with me, and decided he didn't want to be in mine or the baby's life anymore that's not going to happen.

My mom told me that she did not want me to put the baby up for adoption but will support me no matter what decision I make. She told me that because of how up and down the relationship with my boyfriend was the he would be back, but honestly I don't see it happening. She told me that she would take custody over the baby and it would be like having a little brother almost instead. Which at first I thought was a good idea because another girl here who is 16 and pregnant and already has a son is in that situation where her parents have custody over her son. She told me it was like having a little brother. I asked her if she ever just wanted to be the mommy or got envious over the way her parents took care of her son and she told me she didn't because she knew it was the right thing to do. So I was thinking, yeah okay maybe this would be better because I would still be able to see my baby and would get to watch him grow up with me as well.

Later on my mom told me that if I was to decide for her to take custody since she's more capable that the father (my ex) would NOT be allowed to see the baby and would not be allowed to come near her or the apartment. Even if we were to get back together. I felt uncomfortable about that and thought maybe temporary custody/guardianship would be better that way when I'm financially capable I would be able to take him. She told me that she is comfortable with having temporary custody over my son but the same rules apply for the father of the baby seeing him. If or if we weren't to get back together. I told her that I agreed to it.

I'm really unsettled about all of this and it's driving me insane. The father of the baby isn't talking to me at all, and I'm trying to get a hold of him to discuss some of these things with him. I'm not sure what I should do. Yes, I want what is best for the baby. Personally, I don't think I could mentally and emotionally handle giving my baby up for adoption. It's just a really hard decision for me because all of this has happened at once. If someone has any advice on what they would do or what they think I should do, that would be great. I would also like some Pros and Cons for adoption, temporary custody/guardianship and full custody/guardianship if I were to do that with my mom. Also, maybe some other options. I've thought about parenting long and hard and I don't think I'm ready. I thought I was because of how smoothly things were going once before but now everything is really picking up and the tables are turning. No I wasn't on birth control, and no I didn't use a condom. This is my responsibility, especially to decide what is best. I keep feeling guilty every day because I can't decide. My family has told me that if I were to consider adoption or even open adoption then they would never see the baby again and would be mad at my decision. But it's my decision.. it just would hurt so bad.. for my emotional wellbeing. I'm not even sure why. Please someone give me some advice, pros, cons, etc.

Thanks.

First it is all nice and great to talk about what everyone wants.

But there will be some facts.
If you sign custody over to your mother, the father may still have legal rights to later ask for visitation. And to be honest, as men mature, maybe in three or four years he will see the error of running out, and want contact.

For your mom to adopt, (not just have custody) the father of child will have to sign to allow it also.

And who gives a (excuse the term) that he does not want to pay child support, 1/2 of the men out there do not want to. You or your mother if she gets custody, files for child support and he has to pay when he starts working later.

Only you know your situation. I talk to kids who have emotional issues because they are adopted and can not cope with it, parents who cry every time they pass a playground, thinking where is their child.

Others have no issues at all.

The smartest thing, and I am proud of you, that you realize at 16 you are not prepared to care for a child, at least by yourself. My opinion, for what it is worth, have the baby, try living at home with your mom ( if you can work out problems) and see how it goes without having to change any legal custody. You can give her any money you receive for the child. Then if you see your life, leaving your mom and baby, custody can be done then.

Take time, don't make rash choices.

You asked him if you two could make it work later on? Not yr words but similar. And... you get pregnant again and then it becomes a lot of 'what ifs'? What if we had kept baby no. 1' etc.

No, don't think you would want to go there.

You need yr own space right now. If you have the money, distance yourself and THINK !

Leave the boyfriend alone, but keep talking to your mom. She seems supportive, and that's what you need right now to make a good decision for yourself.

No hurry, think it through.

Good luck.

You're a teen, he's a teen. Teen relationships rarely last, especially when there's a teen pregnancy.

You have major issues, bringing a baby into the mix won't help those issue at all. Your mother doesn't seem to be good parenting material either, after all she raised you and look at all your issues. Do you really want your baby being raised by her? Just going off what you wrote.

Giving a baby up isn't easy, but it's a lot easier than raising a baby when you're a teen with no money, a father in prison, a mother that DCFS took you away from, father of baby is 17 and has woken up to realize that he doesn't love you enough to be with you forever and raise a child with you.

You're only 16, so you really have no idea what real life is all about. Your baby shouldn't have to suffer because of that. I think adoption is a wonderful option in your case. Not easy, and I wouldn't be able to do it. Then again, I didn't get pregnant at 16, I waited to have a baby when I was married, and financially secure.

I would talk to a counselor, look at all your options realistically. Discount the father of the child completely, he's out of the picture and you have no idea if he'll ever be in the picture. Also, depending on what he makes, the child support you get will likely not even be enough to buy diapers, much less clothes, a crib, a stroller, a car seat, bottles, formula, doctors appointments, shots, and everything else.

Babies aren't cheap. That's why adults tell kids like you that it's not a good idea to get pregnant, because there's no way that at 16, you can afford this, and based on your posts, your not mentally prepared for this either.

Biggest piece of advice I can give you. When you make your decision, base it on what's best for the baby, not one what you want, or how it will make you feel. Base it all on what's best for this child that didn't ask to be brought into this world.

I wish you the best of luck.

You are considering bringing a baby into this world, and raising him. That the possibility exists that your mother would have custody of him, will not absolve you of your responsibilities as a mother. It won't be like a little brother as you think, it is your baby, that you brought into this world, and allowed your mother to raise.

Your mother does not sound very mature to me, and I don't believe her advice is good. That she, and others will be angry with you for putting the baby up for adoption speaks volumes as to what is the right thing to do for this child. They have already taken over making decisions for you it sounds like, and you are left with conditions should you agree, or not agree to what everyone else wants for you. None of them are taking into consideration what is best for the baby, or even considering what is best for the baby.

That being said, you had to go and live elsewhere when you and your mother couldn't get along. That is serious in itself. They want you to keep the baby (your family), yet you can't get along with your mother, or her you. When you move back in to her new apartment with a baby, do you think the relationship is going to be better? The stress of even just getting through the first months with a baby, are overwhelming. Add bad relationships, dominating relatives, and everybody having an opinion (with consequences if you don't comply), does not sound like a very stable place for either you, or the baby.

You have no means of support, even if somebody else is going to help you out. All your own future hopes, plans, and dreams, will be on hold, until you can get subsidies for day care, etc. to attend school. Attending school, while raising a baby, is near impossible.

The relationship with your mother is troubling. If you decide to raise the baby yourself, and live with her and her boyfriend, she will take over by the sounds of her demanding nature. If you decide to give her custody, you will be at her mercy- and more likely than not, you will still be heavily involved in YOUR child's life, and will run into all kinds of difficulties with differences in opinion on how to raise the child. But you will be stuck.

You have nowhere to go and no easy future ahead of you. You have said you are not ready to be a mother, and that is the bottom line. No matter what has been offered by you so far with your mother, the baby is not yet born, and you have few options except to allow your mother control, and that position doesn't sound like the best alternative to me.

My advice is to put the baby up for adoption. There are couples who have the basic 'qualifications' that are in a far better position than you, to raise this child with love, support, the finances, and they are able to better offer a bright future for the baby. You have none of the qualifications they have, let alone the desperate desire to have a child. They have the maturity, and you do not. You will be dependent upon your mother, and social services, and court issues for support, and will be pinching pennies to buy a pack of diapers. Your boyfriend clearly does not want this baby. While you may have others around you for your basic needs for the baby, the stark reality of raising a baby at age 16, is such a contrast to the life this baby, and you, could have, should you decide to have the baby adopted.

I encourage you to put this baby up for adoption, and let a family who desperately wants a baby, raise him. You are light years away, emotionally, and financially, to raise a child at your age. Help for you will be all under the decision of what others will provide, and the consequences of having your life run by others.

Good luck to you.

Your father is in prison. Your mother has an addiction to alcohol. Do you really think your mother is a good role model? She's an alcoholic. She isn't capable of raising a baby and dealing with an out-of-control teen. You.

This is is really no environment to raise a baby. You won't be able to give the baby Hunter's last name unless he is willing to sign an Affidavit of Paternity and have his name listed on the birth certificate as the father. Depending on where you live that may not even be possible because he is only 17 years old.

As as for child support. Should you keep the baby, that is not his option. He made this baby. He is equally responsible for this child financially as you are. You do realize just how expensive babies are, don't you? No, of course you don't, you are 16. Formula, not every mother can breastfeed, can cost upwards of $200 a month. Diapers, another $100 or more... Clothes, toys, doctors, vaccinations, etc.

The cost of raising a child to the age of 18 today is upwards of a quarter of a million, yes, MILLION, dollars. Do you think Hunter should get off scott free. Hell to the NO!

Will you mother ever be drunk while taking care of this baby? With her history of alcohol abuse there is a very good chance that the court would not appoint her custody. What will you do if that happens?

Are there counselors and social workers you can see where you are? One would expect if DCFS is involved to the degree you were removed from her custody, then you and your mom would be going through some kind of counselling process. Is this the case?

You may not live with your mom, but are they allowing regular contacts between you?

Please clarify.

I missed the part the DCFS was involved. This increases the chances that your mother won't be able to gain custody and that the baby will be placed into foster care and possibly a forced adoption.

The case with DCFS is closed. I chose to not live with my mother because of her alcoholism. However, I won't be able to stay here when I have the baby. Only about 3 months after he is born. My mom would be allowed to take custody over him as long as both Hunter and I agree to it, according to the social workers here. There is a counselor but she is mostly just helping me decide on adoption or having my mom take custody.

Is your mom still an alcoholic?

Yes, my mom is still an alcoholic. We discussed it and she thinks it's best if I choose adoption. I was devastated at first but as I think about the great life the baby will have, and a healthier one then what I could ever have given him.. The thought isn't as depressing. I think I'm going to do it..

Why are you using 2 usernames Maxine?

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/pregnancy-new-motherhood/isnt-exactly-question-but-unique-baby-boy-names-809690-2.html

Why are you using 2 usernames Maxine?

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/pregnancy-new-motherhood/isnt-exactly-question-but-unique-baby-boy-names-809690-2.html
I lost the password and email to the other one.

I lost the password and email to the other one.

I don't believe you. When looking at that profile it appears you logged in to that account on June 17. Which was the same day you created this thread.

I don't believe you. When looking at that profile it appears you logged in to that account on June 17. Which was the same day you created this thread.
You don't have to believe me, but I created a new account and new email account because I was going to start over with a new one. When I exited out of that account the last time I and tried logging back in, it wouldn't accept my password or username and I couldn't get back into it to delete it.

The Maxine account has been adjusted so that there is no more confusion. You will have to remember this account as Maxine is no longer usable.

The Maxine account has been adjusted so that there is no more confusion. You will have to remember this account as Maxine is no longer usable.
Yes, the account (maaadmaxine) is not usable. I haven't logged into that account since around March/April ish. When there was no problems in my life at all and I was working and was out of school. (Still attending for college prep practice on some days however)

Yes, the account (maaadmaxine) is not usable. I haven't logged into that account since around March/April ish. When there was no problems in my life at all and I was working and was out of school. (Still attending for college prep practice on some days however)
You started the tread I quoted above on March 24 telling us you were pregnant, and the baby was a boy. You then logged on again June 17, but rather than posting under that name, you created a new account.

You started the tread I quoted above on March 24 telling us you were pregnant, and the baby was a boy. You then logged on again June 17, but rather than posting under that name, you created a new account.
I lost the account username and password whenever I tried to log back in. I'm not repeating myself. But yes this is my new account! :)

You do realize how fishy this looks to the people here right? It looks like you're trolling us and that isn't appreciated.

You do realize how fishy this looks to the people here right? It looks like you're trolling us and that isn't appreciated.
I'm really not trolling anybody. All I did was make a new account, sorry.

You started the tread I quoted above on March 24 telling us you were pregnant, and the baby was a boy. You then logged on again June 17, but rather than posting under that name, you created a new account.

I am going to make one correction to what J posted. You have been using both accounts since March.

For your information, we can see when your last activity was. So please stop trying to tell us you made a new account when you were locked out of the first one.

When did your father go to prison? He was clean and sober in March. For that matter your mother was only drinking in restaurants. Two very big differences from the story you have been giving here.

I am willing to give you a chance but you have to be honest with us. Let's start over with just the facts. What are they?

Very suspicious indeed. I'd like an explanation as to why both accounts were being used when apparently the first one was no longer accessible, hence the need to create a new one. If both were being used at the same time, obviously the story that the first one couldn't be accessed, is a lie.

The truth shall set you free. We're not easily duped.

The first one was accessible until last night.

I'm really not trolling anybody. All I did was make a new account, sorry.

As with a lot of things in life, it isn't what your intentions are but what your actions are viewed as. It is a time value thing on our part about how much we try to help you here. If it seems that we're being jerked around we're not going to want to help you because our time is best spent elsewhere. Everything could be honest and legit, but if it seems fishy then that's just the way it is.

Regardless, I would be surprised if you got your boyfriend back. At least at this point. There is a modern saying, "For every beautiful woman out there, there's a guy who's tired of her s**t." Basically saying that there's two parts to every person, what you can see and what you get to know after knowing them. Inside and outside. Regardless of what you're taught, both are important to you consciously and subconsciously. What a person looks for is the balance of those two that they can live with and can love. I think that your boyfriend loved you on the outside, but the inside was a little too... off for his tastes. He couldn't deal with it and couldn't love it. So he moved on. Unless you work on and fix that, which having a child could cause you to do, that won't change. You've got the same tendencies and the same problems. If he got fed up with them enough that he left once, he'll do it again.

This is the part when you have to grown up and become an adult. You have a little person to think about and you need to figure out what is going to happen with it. There is no evidence here that you've talked to him nor have a plan forming about what you're going to do after the birth. If you're going to do adoption then you're going to need to contact the proper agencies and get that ball rolling. If your parents are going to get custody of the child then you need to make sure you know the process and that your parents are ABLE to do this. You're going to have to start talking to local and stated agencies about child support and what you need to secure that. There is also custody issues, he might not want anything to do with the child now, but when he matures he is going to want to. Get that in place now.

You have a lot of work to do. You have to face it and start on it now. It is going to be hard and heart breaking. You will cry and question EVERYTHING that is going on here. There is precious little anyone can do to prevent that. You've played the adult game and now you need to put on your adult panties and deal with the results of the life choices you've made.

Questions?

I have NOT used the other account since March or April. I last used it then. My dad went to prison for a battery charge. He was already on probation. It doesn't matter, honestly. This is my new account now because I can NOT LOG IN to the other account. I'm sorry if it looks fishy.


I am going to make one correction to what J posted. You have been using both accounts since March.

For your information, we can see when your last activity was. So please stop trying to tell us you made a new account when you were locked out of the first one.

When did your father go to prison? He was clean and sober in March. For that matter your mother was only drinking in restaurants. Two very big differences from the story you have been giving here.

I am willing to give you a chance but you have to be honest with us. Let's start over with just the facts. What are they?
My mom started a lot of drama with her drinking. She was only drinking at restaurants but things changed A lot since then.


As with a lot of things in life, it isn't what your intentions are but what your actions are viewed as. It is a time value thing on our part about how much we try to help you here. If it seems that we're being jerked around we're not going to want to help you because our time is best spent elsewhere. Everything could be honest and legit, but if it seems fishy then that's just the way it is.

Regardless, I would be surprised if you got your boyfriend back. At least at this point. There is a modern saying, "For every beautiful woman out there, there's a guy who's tired of her s**t." Basically saying that there's two parts to every person, what you can see and what you get to know after knowing them. Inside and outside. Regardless of what you're taught, both are important to you consciously and subconsciously. What a person looks for is the balance of those two that they can live with and can love. I think that your boyfriend loved you on the outside, but the inside was a little too... off for his tastes. He couldn't deal with it and couldn't love it. So he moved on. Unless you work on and fix that, which having a child could cause you to do, that won't change. You've got the same tendencies and the same problems. If he got fed up with them enough that he left once, he'll do it again.

This is the part when you have to grown up and become an adult. You have a little person to think about and you need to figure out what is going to happen with it. There is no evidence here that you've talked to him nor have a plan forming about what you're going to do after the birth. If you're going to do adoption then you're going to need to contact the proper agencies and get that ball rolling. If your parents are going to get custody of the child then you need to make sure you know the process and that your parents are ABLE to do this. You're going to have to start talking to local and stated agencies about child support and what you need to secure that. There is also custody issues, he might not want anything to do with the child now, but when he matures he is going to want to. Get that in place now.

You have a lot of work to do. You have to face it and start on it now. It is going to be hard and heart breaking. You will cry and question EVERYTHING that is going on here. There is precious little anyone can do to prevent that. You've played the adult game and now you need to put on your adult panties and deal with the results of the life choices you've made.

Questions?
We have proper arrangements and agency's that come through the system at the place I am currently living at. It's a maternity home, they have adoption services.


Very suspicious indeed. I'd like an explanation as to why both accounts were being used when apparently the first one was no longer accessible, hence the need to create a new one. If both were being used at the same time, obviously the story that the first one couldn't be accessed, is a lie.

The truth shall set you free. We're not easily duped.
They weren't being used at the same time. I got logged out of the other one, I then made this one the same day.

You have a lot on your plate but have a support system around you to guide you through this life changing event. Take one day at a time for now and focus on having a healthy baby. You will not be the same 17 year old you once were.

I wish you luck, no matter what your choices, it can't be easy at all. Life just ain't easy either, for any of us,and whose PERFECT?