I know we have discussed the Ferguson case before but this has taken a nasty turn

Michael Brown's mother: 'This could be your child' - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/26/justice/ferguson-grand-jury-reaction/index.html?hpt=hp_t1)

It becomes obvious that anytime you don't like a court decision you take to the streets and protest. The officer involved here has been found guilty in the court of public opinion even though a Grand Jury found he didn't have a case to answer. So the point becomes a question of the victims character, was he the neighbourhood hood he appeared to be? Or the lovely child his parents thought him to be? That question doesn't appear to have been answered but the accusation has been made that his character was assassinated. It has been brushed aside, tarred with the stink of racism. Other questions surround the treatment of the victims remains.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/25/opinion/granderson-ferguson-america-problem/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

When did it become racist to apprehend a suspect or call into question the actions of a teenager. I wonder how a black police officer would have acted in these circumstances?

How do you define racism? Discrimination or something more, Is it disliking the actions of a specific group of people? Will the father be charged for inciting a riot. There are deep cultural questions to be answered.

What your not understanding is the way the laws around the country work. Was this shooting justified? I havent read the testimony from the grand jury but so far it looks justified.

What we have now in this country is a deep seeded lust for money at any price. Those that wish to fan the flames of race over and over again because they profit from it so heavily. Even our president incites the flames of racism. It is hard to deal with issues when you have persons that are fanning the flames while you stand by with a squirt gun to put them out.

If the real truth got out that we are all pretty much the same no matter what the color of our skin is then those that are making the money from it would have to find something else to do. Right now its not a choice as the money is too big.

This is all unfortunate, but there are pictures of this man beating up a store owner and trashing the store. I don't quite remember where I saw the pics. They are from a security camera in the store. I don't think he was as lily white as his mom states. He looked to be a real thug. I imagine anyone could dig up the pics on Google by putting in the pertinent information.

This incident has gone viral. They are protesting in Toronto and across the country in both Canada and the US.

When will it stop ?

there were 2 court decisions this week in Arkansas and Mississippi that overturned gay marriage bans. Should there now be riots over those decisions ? I got an idea. There have been multiple arrests over the riots . Let's deny them due process and serve a verdict now .


I wonder how a black police officer would have acted in these circumstances? You don't have to search far for that answer . August 11 ; Dillon Taylor was gunned down by non-white Salt Lake City police officer, Bron Cruz.
What ? You haven't heard of this story ? No surprise there . There have been multiple protests over this shooting .... but no looting ,violence ,arson etc. There have instead been peaceful democratic protests.

Michael Brown was no longer a "child" at 6'5" and 289 lbs. He had just stolen cigarellos from a convenience/liquor store, shoved the clerk around, then walked down the middle of the street, blocking traffic. Google Youtube "Michael Brown robbery" (without quote marks) for the video.

Only he and Officer Wilson know what really happened after that. Officer Brown did try to stop Brown with shots to his right arm. Apparently, we still don't know if Brown was lunging toward Wilson or trying to surrender when the fatal shots caught him in the head.

The Officer gave clear evidence he was in a rage and was not surrendering, you have to question his sanity. Where was the car camera to record the events, I though such things were standard. Was killing him outright over the top? We all have these incidents of police shooting and sometimes for lesser circumstances than these, but the public response is ridiculous and all taking part should be prosecuted, particularly the father for what is at the least incitement to riot and may even be sedition, that is; inciting revolt against the state. It cannot be excused as grief, the death happened weeks ago.

Any group that uses the racist tag as an incitement to violence should not be dismissed as a lawful protest or a response to racism, it is in itself an expression of racism but you can never call a black man racist.

Having said that what is happened is obviously part of some deep seated issues regarding the conduct of both law enforcement and the community generally

Michael Brown's stepfather got it right, people just don't realize he was talking about his wife

Michael Brown's stepfather: 'Burn this down!' - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/25/us/michael-brown-stepfather-video/index.html)

That remark is unhelpful

The Grand Jury determined the officer was justified . We are told that we have to accept the justice system when cases like OJ go against what we believe happened. But what we have is an emperor stoking up tensions with his version of social justice over individual justice . After the verdict he said the anger on the street was justified because of historical injustice. Before that he told the UN that Ferguson was representative of America's failings .
To him ,Brown and Wilson are props in his narrative. He said " We need to recognize that the situation in Ferguson speaks to broader challenges that we still face as a nation. The fact is in too many parts of this country a deep distrust exists between law enforcement and communities of color. Some of this is the result of the legacy of racial discrimination in this country." He was projecting a justification for the riots that happened after the grand jury decision. He enabled the rioters with his words .

Tom It maybe he has correctly identified the elephant in the room, you don't get a lot of marks for stating the bleeding obvious even if you do it articulately. The fact is 150 years ago a slave population, a population of non citizens found itsself "free", but the attitudes of the rest of the population were not addressed and so a hundred years later you got around to really addressing the issues, but you would think the current generation after 50 years of civil rights would no longer feel oppressed. Clearly this isn't so. But all of this must be seen against the background of poverty, economic hardship and that other elephant in the room, law enforcement and the drug problem. I expect every cop expects daily to encounter some hop head bent on violence and on statistics the probability that will be a person of colour.

Now Obama is a savvy politician and he can use what is happening here to force change, to add to his legacy and he may well be doing that. You can bet he will ask Congress to provide legislation to address these issues

Now Obama is a savvy politician and he can use what is happening here to force change, to add to his legacy and he may well be doing that. You can bet he will ask Congress to provide legislation to address these issues

No he won't ;he's directed Eric Holder to "work with cities across the country to help build better relations between communities and law enforcement. That means working with law enforcement officials to make sure their ranks are representative of the communities they serve. We know that makes a difference. It means working to train officials so that law enforcement conducts itself in a way that is fair to everybody. It means enlisting the community actively on what should be everybody's goal, and that is to prevent crime." He's not interested in legislation .It's raw power he likes.
As for his legacy ...... it's the trashed and looted convenience store of the original victim . His business was destroyed yesterday by the mob that felt justified due to some historic grievance to loot and vandalize the business he built to serve the community . The emperor can wear that legacy .

but you would think the current generation after 50 years of civil rights would no longer feel oppressed. Clearly this isn't so.

Why do you think that is? Could it be the "Community Organizers" that have been profiting from keeping tensions inflamed for that same 50 years?

No it is because you expect there might be positive impacts and momentum in such issues. Look I know it is difficult, we experience much the same with our indigenous, there seems to be a glass ceiling in racial matters. But changing the terminology you use when referring to ethnic groups still emphasises the differences, it is not inclusive language and I expect that it entrenches attitudes. A Scot said it long ago "a man is a man for all that". We all become frustrated with entrenched problems in our communities, and disadvantage brings frustration most of all. All those jobs that were exported to bring cheap goods from China should have stayed home. Maybe some people benefited from cheap goods but they would have benefited more from employment. When I make these remarks I'm not only referring to your economy, I'm also including my own.

A government has a responsibilty to protect its own first not run off solving the world's problems

I had a case, about 15 years ago. I was attacked by two black gang members, who were upset, I had destroyed their "gang markings" showing their territory. One had a baseball bat. These "young sweet boys" were all 6 feet tall and in that 160 to 180 lb range.

I was a state officer at that time, but off duty. I use serious force to disarm the one with the bat and very strong force to subdue the one that had the bat. The other one got away.

At this point,
1. not CPS got called since I had seriously beaten a child. (remember I was off duty) CPS then wanted to interview my children for possible abuse problems.

2. At court, these gang members, had long sleeve dress shirts and ties, ( hiding gang tattoos) and looked like they were going to Sunday school.

The defense objected that I appeared to testify in uniform, since this was no done in my official capacity and my uniform, would influence the jury.

The "child" was presented as a well behaved young man, who was just going to play baseball when I attacked him and his friend. ( yes you guessed it, because he was black)

I had a hard time getting any witness to testify, yes, they were scared of what gangs would do to them.

So, if anyone wanted to testify for this officer, I doubt they would, out of fear of the mobs and being labeled a traitor or worst.

In the case I had, the case was taken back to juv court (we had him charged as an adult at first) and he got 6 months in Juv lock up where he got honor for having served time.

Good straight A students commit crimes, that is an issue, at sentencing, for them if they are charged. But the facts of the crime, should be what a jury looks at.

In this case, honestly a Grand Jury almost never finds that there is not a case. The evidence showing this was a justified shooting must have been very strong.

Chuck you know in these cases the facts shouldn't get in the way of a good story. The presumption of innocence wasn't afforded to the officer by the black community, they had him tried, convicted, sentenced to death and executed before any Grand Jury looked at the case and when this didn't happen they went out for blood.

Yes, I worry about the Federal case, since the Justice Department sways with political pressure. But so true, truth has nothing to do with good news

Natalie Dubose's business, Cakes & More, was the target of the arson, rioting and looting that followed the grand jury's decision She built her business by herself (yes she did emperor ).No one from the government did it and no one from the government is there now to help her fill all the orders she took for the Thanksgiving holiday .
She pleaded before the decision,
"If I can't open my doors in the morning, I can't feed my kids in the evening,"....
"Just don't burn my shop down, don't destroy it" .

She opened her shop in June, a couple months before the Brown shooting . The riots after the shooting almost shut down her business. For two weeks after the shooting not a single customer entered her shop.

"I am a single mom, a mother of two,"..."This is everything I own; I can't walk away from it. I just got to start up and start baking again."...
"We have orders to go out for Thanksgiving. I can't tell the people — I won't tell the people — that I'm canceling." So she went back to her destroyed shop ,salvaged what she could ,and went back to work.

Yes Tom a mob is mindless and someone should send Mr. Brown the bill, he incited the riot and is directly responsible for the carnage. No, let's see him before a Grand Jury, maybe he will find their next decision more to his liking

They still haven't arrested Brown's stepfather for inciting a riot but it is getting closer

Michael Brown's stepfather: 'Burn this down!' - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/25/us/michael-brown-stepfather-video/index.html)

How obvious can you be? You can try a police officer in the court of public opinion but a malcontent can't be touched and for the most racist of reasons

so yesterday ,at the 25,000 attended millions march in NYC ,the protesters were recorded chanting "what do we want ? ...dead cops ! "
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj4ARsxrZh8

Yes Tom lovely people and you cannot wonder at the reaction of the cops in their community what would happen if the chant were reversed and the police marched chanting, but they wouldn't do that because they are not allowed to be a mindless mob. Best thing you can do is throw open your borders to hispancis so they will dilute the influence of blacks in your population, breed them out is a strategy

Hope the emperor ,Eric Holder ,and Sandanista Bill de Blasio are happy .

Officers Rafael Ramos, Wenjian Liu Shot Execution-Style In Brooklyn « CBS New York (http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/12/20/sources-2-police-officers-shot-in-brooklyn/)

Yes that's right ,they helped stoke the fire ;especially de Blasio with his irresponsible rhetoric .
NYC Mayor de Blasio Criticized After Cop Killings - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/US/nyc-mayor-de-blasio-criticized-cop-killings/story?id=27743243)

A nut did his dirt, and cops added to the outrage by making this about politics? That's both stupid, and irresponsible.

Its like you and Clete always say, when will good Muslims stand against the bad ones? Well when will good cops stand against the bad ones who make them look bad?

it was de Blasio ,outrageously catering to the mob mentality who was stupid and irresponsible .

The guy who killed two cops had nothing to do with the protesters. Nor did the protestors have a darned thing to do with cops getting assassinated by a but job, criminal. To blame the mayor for the actions of a nut job criminal is insane politics and disgusting.

The issue is holding bad cops accountable. That's what the protests are about!

The issue is holding bad cops accountable.

You're absolutely right on that one. The confusion seems to be which cops are bad. Darren Wilson and Daniel Pantaleo don't seem to be but Timothy Loehmann seems to fit the bill, as well as the Costa Mesa Police Union.

Once we get past the soaring rhetoric, the bad politics, and the intense feelings maybe we can look at the unbiased FACTS, and do something constructive, and productive, that we can all benefit from.

The issue is holding bad cops accountable. That's what the protests are about!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj4ARsxrZh8
Bill De Blasio Explains Why His Son Needs To Be Careful Around Cops (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/07/bill-de-blasio-son_n_6283774.html)
Cops hit out at Bill de Blasio after mayor describes 'attack on officers at protests' | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2874256/Cops-brand-NYC-mayor-Blasio-total-nincompoop-uses-word-allegedly-describing-mob-attack-two-officers-protest-against-police-killings.html)

Nitpicking. You know as well as I do that this only part of the story. The so called unions don't even acknowledge that there are bad cops who do bad things.

de Blasio should just admit he was wrong in putting too much emphasis on police conduct, as opposed to violent crime.Even better ,he should just resign and go try to become mayor of Managua.

Police conduct is what the protest are all about all over the country. You mean we can't deal with violent crime AND bad cops? I think we should at least try. Stop defending bad cops, that are killing innocent people.

It starts to get bad when citizens start killing cops in the name of protection or civil rights. But a population frustrated with bad court decisions shouldn't take viligante action and in the interests of clarity, this comes down to easy access to guns in the community. The gun makes people feel empowered to take the law into their own hands. This is the wrong form of empowerment

The gun makes people feel empowered to take the law into their own hands.

Strange. The only guns on the news in Ferguson were in the hands of citizens protecting businesses from looters. Didn't hear about any at the New York protests, either.

It starts to get bad when citizens start killing cops in the name of protection or civil rights.

What part of criminal nut jobs are you not getting? Shame you don't know a criminal from a citizen!


But a population frustrated with bad court decisions shouldn't take viligante action

What part of the right to protest injustice is it you don't understand? Too bad you don't know the difference between the right to protest, and those that take the law in their own hands.


and in the interests of clarity, this comes down to easy access to guns in the community.

Its not good citizen you have to worry about, its criminal nut jobs and bad cops. I know, hard to tell them apart!

[/QUOTE]The gun makes people feel empowered to take the law into their own hands. This is the wrong form of empowerment[/QUOTE]

Disarm the criminal nut jobs, and bad cops! (personal attack deleted)

Disarm the criminal nut jobs, and bad cops! when have I suggested you shouldn't do that? You see confused between the boundries of legal and illegal. It is not legal to burn buildings down in protest. It is not legal for cops to indiscriminately kill. It is not legal to incite riot, that is not free speech or protest. It is not legal to kill cops. You see tal when the problem becomes you don't know who is standing beside you or whether they are a nut job with a gun, you start by removing the guns, the nut jobs will mainfest. Police have a hard job and they make mistakes they should be both supported and accountable.

You have a bad situation take the accountability to where it belongs, the legislature and change bad politicians and bad laws. You don't need new laws to do this, you don't need guns to do this, what you need is peaceful citizens standing up, unarmed so that they provide no excuse for violence

peaceful citizens standing up, unarmed so that they provide no excuse for violence

That's what peaceful protests are about. Unfortunately a few bad apples, both among protesters and cops get unruly, or over aggressive. It only takes a small number to make a minority look bad. And we aren't talking about new laws, just modifying old ones. Basically WHO applies them.

WHO? You have a police force, in fact many police forces, you have security services, you have courts, if these aren't enough to enforce laws. Perhaps what you need to consider is that you have too many layers of law enforcement, so that they are not all playing by the same playbook. I know it's a radical idea to you but do you really need local law enforcment and state police? Do you need homeland security and multiple layers of security forces? If the answer is corruption then you really need to deal with that

Police conduct is what the protest are all about all over the country. You mean we can't deal with violent crime AND bad cops? I think we should at least try. Stop defending bad cops, that are killing innocent people.
Bunk ! They aren't protesting the conduct of a couple bad cops . They are defacto making the charge that it is a systemic problem . Sharpton ,DeBlasio the emperor and Holder have inflamed the situation with their rhetoric so now it's open season on cops . You had protesters in NYC chanting that they want cops dead . You had protestors in NYC mug cops on the Brooklyn Bridge. We have in the last few days had 3 cops shot execution style . Their blood is on the agitators I mentioned .

I don't know why you have such a hard time grasping this ;especially in the case of Sharpton who has a history of inciting riots. This is nothing new for him. He also incited the Crown Heights riots 1991 . The day before the riots began Sharpton said "If the Jews want to get it on, tell them to pin their yarmulkes back and come over to my house".1995 he incited a massacre at Freddie's Fashion Mart. Of course now he is back peddling after the killings and posturing that he has only called for 'peaceful protest' . But his rhetoric has said something else.

So ok ,Sharpton is not an elected official .But he has held court in the White House and in City Hall. So yeah he is culpable .
But what about the emperor ,Holder ,and DeBlasio ? Instead of putting a lid on tensions ,they have helped inflame them. They helped raise racial tensions and hatred for police in Ferguson, St. Louis, and eventually nationwide. When a grand jury declined to indict the police officer who shot Michael Brown in self defense , rioting commenced and they did not try to stop the riots. The police and National Guard were directed to stand back while anarchists and looters destroyed Ferguson.
Now of course he will swiftly change his rhetoric like he did when he claimed the the police acted 'stupidly ' in the arrest of Henry Loius Gates ;calling his stupid comments a 'teachable moment '. Maybe he now sees what his stupid inflamatory comments have wrought and he can chalk it off as another 'teachable moment'.

Here in NY de Blasio characterized his own police as racists and bullies who need to be reigned in and retrained. These murders are a predictable outcome of the divisive anti-cop rhetoric of de Blasio. Right after the Grand Jury decision deBlasio got on the podium and said that his wife and teenage son are not "safe from the very people they want to have faith in as their protectors." What kind of message does that send ? Was he talking about a couple of bad cops then ;or was he indicting the whole force ?
He also should've been more forceful in policing the so called 'peaceful protests' here in NY . They marched without permits pretty much going wherever they wanted ,blocking major roads and bridges ,trespassing and disrupting the lawful commerce of business that had absolutely nothing to do with the incidents involved . It was OWS nonsense all over again.

Nice rant Tom, but we have enough factual evidence to prove bad policing policy, and actions that have tragic results, on tape even, and they call reverend Al to bring them to light. Of course you wish he would stop so this practice can be swept under the rug, and covered up, but obviously there are citizens who ain't going for that crap and I find it amazing you defend armed citizens who rally around a farmer who lost in COURT, and dismiss the millions of UNARMED citizens exercising their RIGHTS to protest.

You take the word of those bad cops, "Nothing to see here, move along", and others who don't will demand justice be served and a fair investigation that brings about change.

I don't dismiss them at all. I am putting the blame solely on the elected officals who inflame them and egg them on . De Blasio met with the protesters and should've read them the riot act . Yeah you can protest peacefully . Instead as the chief executive in charge of the police dept . He threw them under the rug and sided with the most extreme positions of the protesters.
No it is not bad policing policy . If there was ANY bad policy in this case it was that deBlasio made it a priority to crack down on the selling of 'loosies ' individual cigarettes . That's why Eric Garner was busted multiple times ....because deBlasio ordered a crack down . This is the same idiot mayor who says that the cops will no longer arrest people who have an illegal substance on their person. But no ! If someone is going to create a black market for a legal product ;when the only reason it can become a black market is because the city gouges smokers with excessive taxation ;well then the whole wrath of the law enforcement should come down on them . The only difference this time was that Garner had health issues . If he was a healthy man and he was taken down that way ;no one would've given the time of day about it .
But deBlasio doesn't want the focus of the case to be about how his petty policy led to Garner's death . So he has joined in with the cop bashing. If he was a private citizen then perhaps it would be just him flapping his gums . But he is the mayor of the city ;in charge of the police dept. He threw them under the bus with irresponsible inflamatory rhetoric . Now we see what the anti-cop atmosphere he helped create has wroght. HE'S the one who politicized this .Not the cops who spoke out against him.

Eric Garner wasn't selling loosies when he was arrested, and the cops weren't called there for him selling loosies. Had they not focused on his prior bad acts he would not have been arrested and would be alive. He would be alive if one cop had not employed a banned choke hold.

You saw the video, we all did.

citizens exercising their RIGHTS to protest


Like these?
46934

yeah I saw the video . He was resisting arrest . He would be alive if he had cooperated . On the streets is not the place to contest an arrest .

@Cats,

Bad acts by a few, tarnishing the many. Same could be applied to the actions of cops.


yeah I saw the video . He was resisting arrest . He would be alive if he had cooperated . On the streets is not the place to contest an arrest .

The cop used an illegal choke hold, when he had 6 other cops there. He also didn't relinquish the hold after he was down.

These threads teach us a lot about the USA.

and 3 cops this weekend were executed as a result . The ironic thing about it was that the 2 executed in NY were not white cops . Oh btw ,a 4th cop was shot multiple times and wounded in St Louis this weekend . And yesterday in the Bronx ,Raymond Leonardo aimed his gun point blank at cops and pulled the trigger . Lucky for the cops ,he had just finished unloading his gun randomly shooting out apartment windows ,putting many of the residents at risk. The cops were responding to the call when he aimed his gun at them .

and Garner was not killed by a choke hold. There was no choke hold. He used approved dept procedures. Garner died due to pre-existing conditions.

You and Clete don't seem to be able to separate the actions of criminal NUT jobs from those of lawful citizens so its no wonder you cannot separate bad cops from the good ones.

again , the protests are not about a couple of bad cops . You said so yourself. You think it is systemic based on racisim.... a charge that is a steaming pile of manure. Brown died when a cop defended himself against Brown's assault . Garner died resisting arrest . His health was a major factor .
But you make a moral equivalence between their deaths and the execution style murder of police officers. I bet you have your ' free Mumia Abu-Jamal ' poster too.

DeBlasio made it a point to say in a early presser that he did not trust the safety of his biracial son ,not against the predators on the streets that the cops routinely put their lives on the line battling ;but from the very cops protecting him .
He has a history of making similar anti-cop statements going back before his election. He ran his whole campaign on an anti-cop platform. He has greatly contributed to the tensions .

Systemic/institutional racism exists, whether you believe it or not.


Brown died when a cop defended himself against Brown's assault .

That's not an established fact.


DeBlasio made it a point to say in a early presser that he did not trust the safety of his biracial son ,not against the predators on the streets that the cops routinely put their lives on the line battling ;but from the very cops protecting him .

Any responsible parent of a biracial/black/child would do the same and no doubt has schooled him on other dangers to him also. Many minorities have come out publicly with the same assertion, yet you dismiss it as divisive.

Man, what's wrong with you? You just can't see the concept of bad cops can you?

yes I can .
You can't separate them from the bunk you call Systemic/institutional racism .You can't have it both ways . Either you think the whole system is chock full of bad cops ;or you think the bad cops are a rogue small minority in the crime fighting system. Obviously DeBlasio ,and the emperor think that the system is chock full of bad cops ;even in a "progressive "city like NY .

You hate DeBlasio, and its no wonder you skew everything he says.

It's not "bad cops," it's badly TRAINED cops, with Union representation that keeps the poor training going.

For instance, the video DOES show Officer Pantaleno executing a blood choke. US Marine Corps - Close Combat Manual: 6 - Chokes and Holds (http://www.combatical.com/p/6-chokes-and-holds.html) The Union lawyer, as lawyers always do, claimed it was not a choke hold since it did not strangle Garner, as an airway choke would.

This sort of poor training and cover-up is a larger factor in the mis-trust of police than anything the Rev. of Racism or Grupenfuhrer DeBlasio can do.

Tal, that last comment is the equivalent of calling "racist" to try to win an argument.

That's my take on this too Cats. Bad training makes for bad cops and no credible review, or accountability makes it worse NOT better.

If I take anything away from this debate it is that racism has a strong influence on these events and so does lawlessness, so there is an elephant in the room. Police are entitled to protect themselves, what they should not be entitled to do is use undue force or take the lives of unarmed citizens without consequence. No amount of training will change the attitude of a rogue cop and community attitudes, whether racist or to violence are not easy to change. If you have a community that feels it has to protect itsself you have the potential for violence The police should recognise this and not inflame the situation

No amount of training will change the attitude of a rogue cop

Proper training can, however, significantly reduce the amount of "attitude" ANY cop displays to the public. If we continue to train Harry Callahan's, we will continue to get Ferguson's.

But there is an ingrained "brotherhood" mentality that will resist this training to change their ways.

bad training or a handful of bad cops .... here is the relevent point. Elected leaders have been egging and enabling the hatred of cops . The day before the executions ,as the emperor boarded AirForce One for his vacation he said that cops have a 'hidden bias ' left over from Jim Crow days . That is a completely absurd charge; especially if he's speaking about the NYPF ;the most diverse force in the nation. The Emperor ,Holder ,and deBlasio rushed to judgment concluding there was racist motives in the officers actions.


If you have a community that feels it has to protect itsself you have the potential for violence The police should recognise this and not inflame the situation
The truth is this . Blacks ,representing about 13% of the population,commit 53% of the nations murders .....MOSTLY Black on Black violence(91% of the nations murders are Black on Black). If the emperor ,Holder and deBlasio gave a rats a$$ they would be addressing this instead of enabling distrust against the very people who risk their lives trying to protect the Black communities against this national plague . Instead they spin a narrative that the police are the problem. The three of them are disgraceful POS demagogues masquerading as responsible public leaders .

Thankfully Holder is exiting the scene .Hopefully his apparent replacement Loretta Lynch does the job better than Holder ,who in all ways was a miserable failure at his job .

Community mistrust in some communities didn't start with the current mayor in NY Tom, its been festering for years and you know it. Not just NY, but across the country.

Yeah well appears that the biggest cities run by the most "progressive" leaders are the biggest problems . How do you explain the murder rate in places like Chi-town ;run by Rhambo ;or Newark ,formerly run by Sen Corey Booker ? As an example.... was the deteriorating social conditions that are directly tied to the breakup of the family unit among African-Americans the result of Jim Crow ? Nope ,the family unit was fine . It began it's deterioration with the social experiments that the progressives began in the 1960s .

Whether this distrust exists or not ,it has been inflamed by the community organizers/agitators we elected as leaders ,and their flunky Sharpton who has left death and destruction in his wake since he usurped control of the civil rights movement .

I explain the problems in big cities with high poverty, and low economic opportunities. Neither conservatives,or progressive policy has addressed those issues.

Unlike you who blame everything on progressives, and ignore your own faults.

Poverty and low economic opportunities were always there . That does not explain the breakup of the family unit ,the crime rate and the Black on Black murder rate (Margaret Sanger's wet dream) . It was progressive policies that created dependency on the welfare state and forced low income people into housing project experiments. It's hard to break out of that nanny state dependency even when economic opportunities present themselves . Even Bubba Clintoon understood that . But the emperor dismantled promising reforms and is stearing the nation in many ways to the failed 70s. The lack of emphasis on personal responsibility is a progressive mantra . Always cliched excuses explaining away bad irresponsible behavior.

Let me ask you ;do black lives matter to the emperor and Holder in places like Chicago’s Englewood, Roseland and Humboldt Park ? You don't hear a peep from them even though on some weekends there are more killings there then our worse days in Iraq. In those neighborhoods the cry is "more cops please" .

Manipulated economic conditions (recessions, depressions, corporate stealing, fraud and bankruptcy), hit the least and most vulnerable first and hardest, and give rise to some very unpleasant alternatives. Failure to recognize this only lends to more of it, and the band-aids are ineffective.

If all you hear from those blighted neighborhoods is more cops please, then you are either deaf or dumb because that's not all they have been hollering for but that's ALL they have been provided.

You only hear what you want to hear it seems.

It was progressive policies that created dependency on the welfare state How did the 8 years of Bush address those?

You only hear what you want to hear it seems.


Hold that thought Tal it speaks bundles for the level of communication. A political process does in fact only hear what it wants to hear because it expects that we on the receiving end of the communications hear what they want us to hear, which is usually move along, nothing to see here

How did the 8 years of Bush address those?

What, did you think the Bush's weren't progressives?

Bush is perceived as progressing war and the response to 9/11, the focus has now turned back to civil rights and associated issues

Try this for an expose' of the Bush legacy
http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2013/04/george-w-bushs-legacy

Bush is perceived as progressing war and the response to 9/11,

I should edit my last to emphasize Bush ES, plural. POTUS 41 and 43, and 45 wannabe, are all Big Government authoritarians, just like Bubba was and the current POTUS is. The methodology is slightly different in each case, but the song remains the same.

The Bush family have always been proponents of big government . GW called himself a 'compassionate conservative'. So what he did was give us some of the biggest expansions of the nanny state since LBJ's Great Society . When you add in TARP ,it may have been the biggest expansion since FDR. As you recall ,the Tea Party was born in opposition to TARP .
He campaigned on a platform to reduce the size of gvt. Some of the spending of course was justified given that we had to pivot to war footing . Still his domestic spending was out of control with programs like the 2002 Farm Bill, No Child Left Behind and Medicare Part D .Also Bush did not veto any pork bill while the Repubics controlled Congress (and they were spending like drunken Democrats ). What we got instead was stuff like the Bridge to nowhere.

the biggest expansions of the nanny state since LBJ's Great Society

The 1000 Points of Light wasn't cheap, either. Then there was "Read my Lips, No new taxes."

What we got instead was stuff like the Bridge to nowhere.


Where is that bridge?

Alaska .. Sen Ted Steven's great contribution to our bloated budget.
Gravina Island Bridge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravina_Island_Bridge)


The 1000 Points of Light wasn't cheap, either. Then there was "Read my Lips, No new taxes."
yes and I'm concerned we'll get a repeat performance if the Repubics nominate Jeb Bush .

I thought you supported the GOP Tom and all things Bush

Clete - there is no solution on this earth for all his whining. Everyone is to blame and it cannot be fixed.

I thought you supported the GOP Tom and all things Bush
if that's what you think then you haven't been paying attention.

Watch out for those splinters Tom, I see that the cops have done it again, shot an "unarmed" man with a gun in his hand. The man's family said he didn't own a gun.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-24/police-shoot-black-teen-at-missouri-petrol-station/5988058

the video shows something else.
Videos released of officer-involved shooting (http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local/2014/12/24/police-shoot-kill-armed-teenager-in-berkeley/20849209/)

Didn't stop all those who thought the cop got it wrong

The cops handled it without tear gas. Or the national guard, and arrested a few trouble makers.

arrested a few troublemakers

It seems they might have to work much harder in that area, Tal. It must be hard to identify them without profiling, you can't just arrest everyone with a prior conviction or a record of being a general nuiance, but then if you did that...

How about just arresting those doing wrong. Much easier that way. Things are much quieter now.

Not exactly proactive policing Tal, but then we wouldn't want to violate anyone's rights, would we? No, the solution of shooting down the wrong doers rather than having them set free by the courts seems to work. A no tolerance policy usually gets results

The situation didn't call for proactive, just being effective, which they were. What were they supposed to arrest everybody? Or would you prefer gunning them down?

They were proactive enough. No tolerance for what?

The situation didn't call for proactive, just being effective, which they were. What were they supposed to arrest everybody? Or would you prefer gunning them down?

They were proactive enough. No tolerance for what?

Civil disorder Tal, vigilante justice, but proactive is called for with cop killers in the community

NoNo cops got killed Clete, except in NY, and he's dead!

That's three down Tal and counting, just because they didn't succeed doesn't mean they weren't cop killers

yesterday tens of thousands of cops attended the funeral. When Mayor de Blasio (aka -de Commie-o) got up to talk. They turned their back on him in symbolic protest . Hizzoner d*ckhead was 2 hrs late for the memorial;showing up just before it concluded .

Yep that's proactive

Comrade BeBlasio on being booed at the NYPD graduation ceremony, nanny Boomberg was booed once, too.

yes Bloomy was booed after he talked of layoffs . Sandanista Mayor De Blasio enflamed protesters with his rhetoric.

Yup, I don't think they took too kindly to it.

Once again the US is being tried in the court of public opinion, this time because they shunned the international expressions of solidarity over Charlie Hembro

'A storm in a D.C. teacup' - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2015/01/12/politics/us-france-analysis/)

There is a big question here, is this callous disregard because it didn't happen here or a media beatup over a notable absence. I have to say our PM didn't go either and I don't know what that says. When you see what happened in France it is obvious it is the action of a small group who may or may not have allegiences to a major terror organisation. The terrorists have achieved their objective, France is in lockdown but the focus is on what Obama didn't do as if it has any bearing on the outcome. How about getting the focus on the victims, there are reports that the French jewish population is contemplating migrating. They can migrate here, it is preferable to muslim migration

Je Suis Charlie

The emperor had football games to watch. VP Biden ;well it's not safe to let him outside. JF Kerry would've been a natural choice ;especially since he's French in spirit anyway. The one who speaks of courage but rarely shows it ;Eric Holder was there in Paris and decided to bug out before the march.
Remember when all the endorsements for the emperor in 2008 noted that he was a citizen of the world and he would repair the US relations that the Bushies destroyed ? Well his foreign policies have been one failure after another . His State dept is a joke .He has made relations with allies worse and too often show common cause with our enemies (especially with Iran and the Ikhwan) .

Let's see if he travels to Moscow to celebrate the 70th anniversary of Russia's 'Victory Day' . He's invited ,but I suspect he'll decline . Too bad . That could be an ice breaking occasion .

Michael Ramirez Cartoon (http://news.investors.com/photopopup.aspx?id=734424)

Ultra conservative news coverage of the Paris march. (http://news.yahoo.com/israel-paper-cuts-merkel-paris-march-photo-modesty-131410239.html)

there are reports that the French jewish population is contemplating migrating
yes anti-semitism has always been an issue in egalitarian France. But the biggest problem is the migration of Muslims into the country . The Europeans think they can have workers come in and not assimilate without consequences. George Friedman has a good essay on this issue .
A War Between Two Worlds | Stratfor (http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/war-between-two-worlds#axzz3OoKNNOF1)

Of course the US is falling into the same trap. We used to say about immigration is that we have a melting pot . Now we call our society a 'mosaic' .You see it with all the hyphenization of identity . We aren't Americans . We are Italian-Americans ,Irish-Americans ,African-Americans etc.

However ,the big weakness of that progressive drivel is that 'tribal' differences are emphasized, not minimized in the 'beautiful mosaic 'concept . Another name for it is 'Balkanization' .

Obviously Tom, all tribes are not equal, especially in America. That's not what's written in the constitution either.

You are right Tal all the tribes are not equal and certainly not in the place that talks of equality but this has been ever so, it has enabled one group to enslave another and one group to dominate another, there are many examples of this and the wars we have today are in fact this principle in human behaviour playing out. However the tribal boundries have changed, they are less associated with race and far more associated with ideology and religion and it is niaive to suggest that religion is not one of the key factors or that the devil made them do it

And we see the ultimate tribal system at play when Tom asks will Obama travel to Moscow? If he were a statesman he would, if he is just a tribal elder he will not.

tal ,you completely missed the point about my use of the word 'tribal ' . So strike that and say .....However ,the big weakness of that progressive drivel is that 'ethnic ' differences are emphasized, not minimized in the 'beautiful mosaic 'concept .

Let's agree multiculturalism doesn't work, it's a marvellous idea that people don't have to change and adapt but unrealistic, when you come to a country there is an ethos, there is a language, there are laws and why should this change for a minority who choose to come and leave their homeland. We have seen is that what happens over time is the original inhabitants fade away in the face of large scale migration but one culture pervades. Multiculturalism is born out of the idea that displaced persons need a home but that's fine as far as it goes. There are few societies that are prepared to take large numbers of displaced persons

Fear hate and resentment is what emphasizes the differences, and its not at all unusual for integration to take years if not generations. That's pretty much the history of man as migration and immigration goes on constantly, and always will. Lets face it, minority immigrants have always been pressured to assimilate, not always an easy thing to do or an easy thing to forget your own culture. Even harder when laws are made to erase the cultural backgrounds of incoming immigrants.

I think the notion that one has to abandon their culture to be a part of the national culture is where the drivel starts, because if you embrace the notion that multiculturalism cannot work, then you lose the ability to rise to the challenge of making it work, and we retreat to the tribal boundaries of years long gone and accept that dictators and conquerors set the rules.

I submit the US as an example that it can work, albeit not without conflict and struggle, very similar to the current French model where fundamentalist have voiced their displeasure at any compromise except that of the new immigrant, be they jew, or muslim at this point. It's that zeal to preserve the cultural purity that stand in the way of tribal cooperation and effective progress. Its been shown in human history though that it can be overcome in time, and many ancient battles and disputes can be dealt with... until the NEXT conflict.

Its an inevitable process as the modern world gets more modern and shrinks the time and distance between cultures. For sure its never pretty, or smooth, but I don't see it stopping, or slowing down any time soon. Though haters and beetchers will and have tried their best.

nah. In the past it was one generation tops .

I submit the US as an example that it can work, albeit not without conflict and struggle
That's because the US believed in assimilation . The melting pot meant that the US adopted some of the culture of the immigrant ;and the immigrant became culturally American. Now it is more difficult because we are being taught to not have pride in our national identity and culture. We are a hyphenated country .

So what? You find something wrong in being both or many? There is a growing trend as the "races" mix for naturally multicultural citizens. Why can't they celebrate the differences instead of making them an object of derision?

I find it a thing of national pride that we can be so diverse. And not just European, but globally diverse.

diversity is fine . But if there isn't one defining national culture then you risk Balkanization . I am concerned that is where this country is headed . The United States is much more than 'a common border' .That alone does not define a nation. We will no longer be Americans any more than Yugoslavians are now Yugoslavians . I remind you that we got to witness the disintigration of Yugoslavia and it was not pretty . I'll say it again . The quickest way to destroy America is to deconstruct it's common culture and identity ,and a common law. The French have done everything wrong by giving incentive to Muslim immigrants to not only resist all assimilation, but to establish a separate country within a country. The emperor repeats it here by assuring illegal immigrants that there will be no penalty for their violations of our laws.

Tom is right, no one asked the immigrant to forget where they came from but within our borders they must submit to our laws and meet the norms of our society not duplicate the place where they came from otherwise one day you will have an explosion. It is apparent that even if populations have been there for generations if there is no assimulation eventually they become isolated

Obama is hardly the first president to offer amnesty for immigrants who didn't follow the immigration law to the letter. Don't most people become immigrant because of bad situations in their homeland? At least so far presidents have recognized this and made allowance without tearing families apart and Mr. Obama is no different. A piece of paper doesn't change your humanity, nor should you be penalized for your fear for your life and liberty, or just wanting a chance. To not recognize this is inhumane in of itself.

Hell most citizens in America don't exactly practice being a citizen to perfection, but you should get over the notion that your humanity is better than another, and stop trying to dictate what "they" should do and what "they" deserve. That's a good one Tom, comparing the US to Yugoslavia.

Just so you know Clete, many people choose to isolate themselves from the rest of us and live the way they so choose. Nothing wrong with that at all.

You know Tal isolation is sometimes an idea with merit now if we could just get some people to isolate themselves...

No telling what people will do when pushed by those who take moral authority a bit too far. They may want to isolate YOU, or worse.

Hmm, we understand isolation Tal but sometimes we would like a little more of it, as to moral authority, such a term is relative to the culture so it seems. I doubt you would submit to the moral authority of the immans and nor would I, a bridge too far perhaps, but nor would I submit to the moral authority of a secular authority with no morals where the end justifies the means. I think we have lost the ability to discern between the two

Breaking News

DOJ blasts Ferguson police in 'searing' report | www.ajc.com (http://www.ajc.com/news/news/national/doj-blasts-ferguson-police-searing-report/nkPBF/)


WASHINGTON — The Department of Justice's report on the Ferguson Police Department was released Wednesday, and it turns out to be even more damning than the early leaks suggested. The report describes everything from harassment to excessive use of force to the unfair targeting of African-Americans just to help balance the city's budget.

yeah the DOJ was not happy that they couldn't pin a charge on officer Wilson . So as a parting shot they' indicted 'the whole force. Holder is a pathetic individual . The Dems are right ....... The Repubics should do everything necessary to expedite the end of Holder's sorry tenure and to install Loretta Lynch . She can't possibly be worse . All this report does is to open the scab in the hope to incite more rioting . You would think Holder and Sharpton had already done enough damage.

No Tom racists can never do enough damage but then being in defense of people of colour cannot be racist can it, people of colour are never racist. One day someone will decide there are only one type of people in this world and then we will be able to say a criminal is a criminal

people of colour are never racist.

The greatest lie of the 20th Century.

That's what I was pointing out, doesn't excuse other racist acts in the twentieth century but we have to get past all that and realise people are people.

Brown was a petty criminal and his acts were those of a criminal, not some down trodden home boy being brutalised by the police. The acts of those who called for the police station to be burnt down were racist. Now maybe the community should have had more sensitive policing but that is being wise after the event and may not have changed the outcome.

The thing is there are disadvantaged communities all over and they are a breeding ground for crime and this has to be recognised. Most kids get exposed to petty crime and they have the opportunity to decide whether they go along or not. Brown made his decision

That's what I was pointing out

I was agreeing with you, but without the sarcasm. You did the sarcasm fine all by yourself.

If you accept that minorities are racists, then you have to accept the majority are racists also. But which one can actually affect the lives of the other adversely because of that racism? One would think that the minorities react to the majority with hate because the majority hates them, and has the power to deny them the basic expressions of freedoms that the majority enjoys.

I mean just the fact the majority can still to this day impose its will on minorities and subject them to policies and practices under the guise of law, that adversely affects their freedom to exercise their rights should give you pause to examine those policies and practices.

It's like the big bad wolf selling the pigs straw for their house so he can always blow it down at his leisure, while making sure they cannot afford bricks to build a better house. Such policies and practices are pervasive throughout the country, and caught on tape, and documented, and its deeper than just a small town in Missouri.

So lets not equate the minority expressing their displeasure of the majorities mistreatment of them, as the same racism the majority has imposed on the minorities. They are NOT the same at all as a minority can only holler, but the majority can not only holler, they can justify denying the minority the right to practice his freedom, and has making when he does, ILLEGAL.

By definition a minority cannot be a racist,

Racism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism)

So who has power over who? A minority has no power to affect the lives of the majority, so how can the minority be a racist? Not liking the majorities treatment of the minority doesn't equate to racism.

If you accept that minorities are racists, then you have to accept the majority are racists also. But which one can actually affect the lives of the other adversely because of that racism? One would think that the minorities react to the majority with hate because the majority hates them, and has the power to deny them the basic expressions of freedoms that the majority enjoys.

I mean just the fact the majority can still to this day impose its will on minorities and subject them to policies and practices under the guise of law, that adversely affects their freedom to exercise their rights should give you pause to examine those policies and practices.

It's like the big bad wolf selling the pigs straw for their house so he can always blow it down at his leisure, while making sure they cannot afford bricks to build a better house. Such policies and practices are pervasive throughout the country, and caught on tape, and documented, and its deeper than just a small town in Missouri.

So lets not equate the minority expressing their displeasure of the majorities mistreatment of them, as the same racism the majority has imposed on the minorities. They are NOT the same at all as a minority can only holler, but the majority can not only holler, they can justify denying the minority the right to practice his freedom, and has making when he does, ILLEGAL.

By definition a minority cannot be a racist,

Racism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism)

So who has power over who? A minority has no power to affect the lives of the majority, so how can the minority be a racist? Not liking the majorities treatment of the minority doesn't equate to racism.

What a sterling example of the collectivist mindset. Majorities and minorities don't do anything. Individuals hate. Individuals treat others poorly. Otherwise Bill Clinton and David Duke are equivalent, both being southern white boys. Likewise Sheila Jackson Lee and Condoleezza Rice.

just the fact the majority can still to this day impose its will on minorities and subject them to policies and practices under the guise of law, that adversely affects their freedom to exercise their rights should give you pause to examine those policies and practices.


you can't be serious . The charge that the Justice Dept leveled against the Ferguson police was that they used traffic stops to enhance the township revenues. That happens in every town in America....witness the stink that the Sandanista Mayor of NYC made when the cops slowed down. Only Holder's Justice Dept could turn that into bias policy born of racism . They see racism where none exists.

Or maybe you cannot see racism where it does exist. You wouldn't be alone.

By definition a minority cannot be a racist,


That is absolute nonsense, do you live in a bubble? Look beyond your borders if you are unable to see racism at home. ISIS, for example; a minority and racist as well as many other things. The fact is Tal minorities are just as racist as majorities they are just less able to enforce their racism, racism is an attitude of mind. Sometimes it comes out of being over exposed to a particular group and their overt racism

How many minorities insist upon marriage within their group, this is racism. How many minorities turn their neighbourhoods into ghettos slowly forcing others out, where only their kind are welcome, this is racism in action

The fact is Tal minorities are just as racist as majorities they are just less able to enforce their racism

So the best racist are the ones who can enforce their racism? Gotcha!

best racist

Oxymoron alert! That one's right up there with Military Intelligence and Government Help.

LOGIC ALERT!!

I have a problem with people who can enforce their racism. And is it racism when the ones you force it on don't like it... or you for doing it?

Just asking!

is it racism when the ones you force it on don't like it... or you for doing it?

Such as the Affordable Care Act?


people who can enforce their racism

Such as the Reverend of Racism himself?
REV. AL SOAKS UP BOYCOTT BUCKS | New York Post (http://nypost.com/2008/06/15/rev-al-soaks-up-boycott-bucks/)

LOGIC ALERT!!

I have a problem with people who can enforce their racism. And is it racism when the ones you force it on don't like it... or you for doing it?

Just asking!

Have no idea what you are talking about, racism is about doing things for racial reasons, and then there is doing things that discriminate against people for religious reasons and the lines can become very blurred between the two. There are people who are challenged in many ways and our societies spend much effort trying to accommodate their "special needs". But I think we should stop making special cases of people who make specific choices, whether this is where they live or how they behave.

Would either of you care to elaborate your positions?

@It was you who brought up ENFORCING racism.

@Fail to see what ACA has to do with racism, or why YOU hate it. Nor how you single out a black guy who gets paid to holler against racism, and not look at the institution/corporation who engages in the racism.

Would either of you care to elaborate your positions?

@It was you who brought up ENFORCING racism.

@Fail to see what ACA has to do with racism, or why YOU hate it. Nor how you single out a black guy who gets paid to holler against racism, and not look at the institution/corporation who engages in the racism.

The ACA is an example of your statement of forcing unwanted policies on people, which you so deliberately misconstrue.
Majority of Americans Still Disapprove of Healthcare Law (http://www.gallup.com/poll/167309/majority-americans-disapprove-healthcare-law.aspx)

WHO brought up enforcing racism?

That is absolute nonsense, do you live in a bubble? Look beyond your borders if you are unable to see racism at home. ISIS, for example; a minority and racist as well as many other things. The fact is Tal minorities are just as racist as majorities they are just less able to enforce their racism, racism is an attitude of mind. Sometimes it comes out of being over exposed to a particular group and their overt racism

How many minorities insist upon marriage within their group, this is racism. How many minorities turn their neighbourhoods into ghettos slowly forcing others out, where only their kind are welcome, this is racism in action

There you go. A comment on the ACA though it only affects 20% of the population, mostly economically challenged women and children and has brought down the number of uninsured even though republican controlled states continue for now to NOT expand the benefits of medicaid to the ones that fall between the cracks still. Mostly working poor.

Even your poll points out that most Americans are not affected greatly by the law since most are insured through there employer, 80-85%. But we can always go back to double digit health care cost increases, that will affect all of us.

I find it fascinating you hate what largely doesn't affect you, but helps poor woman and children. Hope things go great and you never need such help.

The ACA is a market response to a social problem and it proves that the market isn't always the place to solve problems. I'm not against people having health care and fairness being enforced, because in the marketplace sometimes it has to be. You want to say it was only about insuring the disadvantaged and maybe it was if you want to include the recently unemployed among the disadvantaged. Thing is having an employer provide health care is a bad idea, it makes an assumption that people are going to be employed with an employer for a long time. Owning your heath care is far more realistic and so is covering young adults and you needed laws to get that done but it is a long bow to suggest this is racist just because it advantages more people of a particular race when in fact it advantages people of all racises in a particular circumstance. It may even be racist to suggest the ACA is racist

We have seen that a number of laws have racist overtones particularly those associated with immigration and there is a howl of protest whenever these are changed. How many pieces have said the drug laws are racist because of their impact. I think we need a program for the memory challenged but it is a majority group. most racists have selective memory

Glad you brought the drug laws up Clete, because the data does support the case for unequal treatment of the minorities by the majority. For that to work there must be a collusion from not just the cops, but also the judges, and prosecutors, and to a large extent the city/state governments. Magnified by hard economic times it only exacerbates an already unfair situation. Throw in civil disparities, and misdemeanor traffic laws, you have a whole corrupt system weighed heavily against minorities.

Seems the majority could be a lot more even handed in handing out fair, and equal justice as our constitution calls for. Dismissing such behavior as the right of the majority to enforce their racism is ludicrous.

I haven't even mentioned immigration laws as just the treatment of citizens is egregious enough to demonstrate the institutional racism that is so insidiously ingrained into all walks of life.

I haven't even mentioned immigration laws How many immigrants should the country allow in every year ? As many as want to come.... or is there actually a number where you would say 'enough ' ? If you do ,do you think that stance poses a problem for unskilled or low skilled Americans ?

Not the point Tom you should have an orderly migration program and prosecution of those who flaunt your laws. Deciding you will or will not accept unskilled workers or targeting your program to skilled workers is not racist. What can be racist is where enforcement targets a particular group based on ethnicity. If you have a large pool of unskilled unemployed obviously you don't want to be adding to that pool by migration. The lines have been very blurred on a number of issues because it suits certain groups to blur the lines and claim disadvantage based on race rather than the truth. We all know certain groups are over represented in unemployment, prisons, crime, drugs, illness, lack of education, etc, etc and it suits some to say this is due to racial discrimination rather than other push factors. The ACA was an attempt to address some push factors and it was done this way because no one was going to accept taxes to provide health care to the poor. Was it a good idea? Probably not. Was it racist? Not inherently

How many immigrants should the country allow in every year ? As many as want to come.... or is there actually a number where you would say 'enough ' ? If you do ,do you think that stance poses a problem for unskilled or low skilled Americans ?

The congress could have addressed that already, the senate passed a bill a year ago but conservatives have not acted, nor have a bill of their own. Even republican presidential candidate Jeb Bush has said they should enact a law, instead of hollering about executive actions. Executive action I might add that every president since Reagan has taken. It's the same with the ACA Tom, and both are before the supreme court because repeal with no replace is the republican solution to everything.

Picking fruit and vegetables may be low/no skilled to you, and Clete, but try going to the grocery store and buying stuff without those low skilled hard working people willing to do the job.

umm there is an existing law that the emperor has decided to violate . Tell me what is the point of passing a law that the emperor will either veto or undermine by executive action ?

I'll ask the question you dodged again .....
How many immigrants should the country allow in every year ? As many as want to come.... or is there actually a number where you would say 'enough ' ?

BTW ....Jebbabubba will never be the nominee.

How many immigrants should the country allow in every year ? As many as want to come.... or is there actually a number where you would say 'enough ' ?

TBD by the CONGRESS. That's their JOB!

there are already immigration laws. You are saying that Congress must pass a new law to the liking of the emperor because he refuses to enforce the existing law and is rewriting it by fiat . What I call that is an executive who runs an unconstitutional imperial tyranny .

Obviously Tom the laws haven't worked very well if the problem keeps getting worse and every president has to tweak it until the congress does SOMETHING! You don't get to holler what the Prez doesn't like until there is a bill on his desk and he vetoes it. Then the congress can OVERRIDE him.

As far a the constitutional legality of his actions, SCOTUS is holding hearings as we WRITE, on this,and other issues.

I don't need SCOTUS to tell me what's unconstitutional. He has gone way beyond the claim he makes of 'prosecutorial discretion . Yes other Presidents have used it to delay deportations due to wars ,and other natural disasters . No other president has claimed the constitutional authority to ignore immigration law because he believes it’s unfair as a matter of permanent national policy.
This is failure to faithfully execute the law ;and worse .It's seizing the authority to make law .

I don't need SCOTUS to tell me what's unconstitutional.If it's unconstitutional then why aren't the republicans dong anything about it?

If it's unconstitutional then why aren't the republicans dong anything about it?

SHHHH!! If they holler long and loud then they figure no one will notice them doing NOTHING about anything.

@Tom

It's the job of SCOTUS to say what's constitutional, or NOT. So I do need a ruling from them. Not that I don't trust you Tom, but verification would be NICE.

... or perhaps it's NOT unconstitutional.

Tal I didn't say you shouldn't allow unskilled workers to immigrate, I said that you should decide on how many you need. I'm sure you have heard of mechanical picking machines in the agricultural industry but you would prefer to hire immigrant labour at slave wages. You don't see immigrant workers in your surprisingly low unemployment statistics, what do these statistics mean? That the employment situation has actually improved or that some of these workers have left. Once again the debate becomes are the laws you have enforceable and would new laws be enforceable. On the one hand you have complaints about racism in law enforcement and when the regime slackens on illegal immigrants you have complaints about racism. But wait we are talking about a different group. Now if you could just get that original group to go back to those low paid agricultural jobs you could then say you don't need migrant workers but it seems even the original slaves don't want to do those jobs

... or perhaps it's NOT unconstitutional.

Article 2 Sec 3 . It's called the 'Take Care Clause' or the 'Faithful Execution Clause' .

"he shall take care that the laws be faithfully executed, "


He also unconstitutionally violates the separation of power by making law when the Constitution vests Congress, not the president, with “all legislative powers herein granted.”

Wow, could you be more vague? LOL! You could apply that to absolutely anything that you disagree with.

Face it, you're wrong and that's why it hasn't been challenged successfully by the repubes.

Come on Karma you know their system is unworkable without a tame parliament

It all amounts to a republican smokescreen to undermine the workings of government to secure the rights and freedoms of its minorities citizens, drummed up out of fear of a rapidly changing demographic, that is shrinking the power, and influence of its former majority. They dehumanize and vilify minorities to justify, and enforce their own racism out of fear as a black man in a white house of power is but a culmination of their long held nightmare that they no longer got it like they had it.

Fortunately, they only are a very small core group who holler in fear of the many changes being shoved down their throats which they can never approve of but are powerless to stop it but noisy in their dying throws of ignorance.

You have made this about race Tal, do you think a white democrat would have faired better? Social change is generational, some of the things you do today would have been unthinkable fifty years ago in an age of poor communications. What has happened is the electorate is better informed and when they make informed decisions they will get rid of what they don't like, whether it is the person in the White House or entrenched attitudes elsewhere. You can be sure they don't like being told something can be done and then you have a bunch of killjoys blocking it

Wow, could you be more vague? LOL! You could apply that to absolutely anything that you disagree with.

Face it, you're wrong and that's why it hasn't been challenged successfully by the repubes.

These are serious issues that separate government by the consent of the people and tyranny . You would not accept an imperial executive .
As for the Repubics......the leadership lacks the testicular fortitude . Speaker Bonehead has made it clear he doesn't like to make waves . He and McConnell are like the glum curmudgeon elders of the town in 'Footloose' . All they really do is show the appearance of opposition while at the same time defanging Congress of all it's constitutional tools to counter the emperor's power grabs .
They should've been replaced this session.
In their defense ,this has been a long time coming .Congress for years has surrendered their powers to the executive and the bureaucratic state . Justice Thomas recently wrote about the problem in his dissent of 'Dept of Transportation v . of American Railroads' .

In this case, Congress has permitted a corporation subject only to limited control by the President to create legally binding rules. These rules give content to private railroads’ statutory duty to share their private infrastructure with Amtrak. This arrangement raises serious constitutional questions to which the majority’s holding that Amtrak is a governmental entity is all but a non sequitur. These concerns merit close consideration by the courts below and by this Court if the case reaches us again.
We have too long abrogated our duty to enforce the separation of powers required by our Constitution. We have overseen and sanctioned the growth of an administrative system that concentrates the power to make laws and the power to enforce them in the hands of a vast and unaccountable administrative apparatus that finds no comfortable home in our constitutional structure. The end result may be trains that run on time (although I doubt it), but the cost is to our Constitution and the individual liberty it protects.

Congress for too long has delegated their powers away . I understand why a President would be inclined to grab even more power from the Legislative branch if Congress at best makes feeble protests against it . They have the power to stop him if they'd use it.

They can impeach him Tom but has he given them cause

Nixon was impeached for less .....as was Clintoon.

Nixon was impeached for less .....as was Clintoon. So much wrong here.
Nixon wasn't impeached, he resigned.

He and his party did such things as bugging the offices of political opponents, he had a secret taping system that recorded his conversations and phone calls in the Oval Office amongst other dirty tricks. He was a crook and a bully.

Bill Clinton was never impeached either.

You have made this about race Tal, do you think a white democrat would have faired better?

For some it IS all about race, and the institutions that allow it. A small "group" using your own word, but vociferous, and persistent. Make no mistake they are exploited for their HATE, that's based in FEAR, and willful ignorance that blocks logic and rational thought. There is no negotiations or debate with such obstenence, especially if the hate is continually fed with more FEAR.

Would a white democrat have fared better? Probably NOT, but the still would have used race as a flavor to feed the fearful. They have before, but you wouldn't know about the southern strategy, or the Willie Horton ads, but the facts can be checked, and verified Clete, rather easily.

So much wrong here.
Nixon wasn't impeached, he resigned.

He and his party did such things as bugging the offices of political opponents, he had a secret taping system that recorded his conversations and phone calls in the Oval Office amongst other dirty tricks. He was a crook and a bully.

Bill Clinton was never impeached either.

you are correct about Nixon . Nixon resigned after the House Judiciary Committee overwhelmingly voted to send the impeachment articles to the floor . He would've been both impeached and convicted .

Clintoon was indeed impeached for lying to a Grand Jury . The Senate refused to convict him .

How was Nixon recording his conversations an impeachable offense? I guess you've never heard the recordings from Kennedy's oval office . Nixon was guilty of conducting a cover-up and should've been impeached for that . The emperor has conducted any number of cover-ups and stonewalling investigations from his many scandals. If Nixon was responsible for the actions of his officers then so is the emperor .


A small "group" using your own word, but vociferous, and persistent. Make no mistake they are exploited for their HATE, that's based in FEAR, and willful ignorance that blocks logic and rational thought. There is no negotiations or debate with such obstenence, especially if the hate is continually fed with more FEAR.

speaking of Al Sharpton again ?

Speaking of Ferguson police again,

http://www.newsweek.com/15-most-outrageous-examples-police-misconduct-department-justice-report-311434

And lets add this too, just for YOU CLETE,

University of Oklahoma expels 2 students over racist video; investigation ongoing | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/03/10/university-oklahoma-students-in-racist-chant-controversy-face-expulsion/)


Social change is generational, some of the things you do today would have been unthinkable fifty years ago in an age of poor communications. What has happened is the electorate is better informed and when they make informed decisions they will get rid of what they don't like, whether it is the person in the White House or entrenched attitudes elsewhere

Unthinkable fifty years ago that swift actions would be taken in UOK, but Obama did win re election so we remain hopeful true change and social justice will eventually win out, despite the negative noise that says otherwise.

Unthinkable fifty years ago that swift actions would be taken in UOK, but Obama did win re election so we remain hopeful true change and social justice will eventually win out, despite the negative noise that says otherwise.

I think we can endorse that comment Tal

BBC News - Ferguson police shot during protest (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-31846425)

Once again someone has demonstrated that the only way to solve problems is at the point of a gun. This demonstrates an appalling attitude in the community. If I were a cop I would definitely not be leaning on the side of not being the first to use my gun. It solves nothing. They have claimed the scalp of the police chief and still they are not satisfied. Now they have blood are they satisfied? What will happen when a suspect is apprehended? More riots? More intolerance? More disrespect of the law?

The action of ONE represents the whole community? Ridicules!! The protesters were ducking too! How do YOU know the shots weren't some WHITE racists, or criminal stirring up trouble?

You went from someONE, to THEY with no facts, just rant!

University of Oklahoma expels 2 students over racist video; investigation ongoing | Fox News



The action of ONE represents the whole community? Ridicules!!

thanks for making my point

thanks for making my point

The actions of the frat boys has proven systemic, was that your point?

Tal if a police chief resigns why is this an occasion for protest and riot. Just a lot of malcontents who think everything should be done to suit them. There was a shooter, perhaps more than one but neither you or I expect that shooter came from some disaffected white group. Do you think the shooter wasn't part of the crowd, or went unseen? he was embedded in the crowd to use the words of a report. If someone other than the protesters wanted to stir up trouble they would have shot a protester. No, this is one more piece of racial violence from a community that has left reason behind and they weren't even targetting local police, it wasn't personal but premeditiated.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-13/ferguson-reignites-after-police-chief-resigns-police-shot/6311648

From YOUR link,


There was anger that he had been allowed to quit instead of being fired — his contract was due to end in May and he will now receive a year's paid leave.

And his nice pension.

Americans have a right to protest.

No he was offered an honerable solution and he took it, it is the way of beauracracy, you work for a pension and you are entitled to take it. It is a reward for past service and he must have done something right and if he was given a golden parachute just remember there is nowhere he is going to get a job at the same level again. The way I see it his contact probably had an early termination clause and you are reading the press beatup which is trying to inflame the locals and get some more revenue out of the result. Gutter press they call it or the polite name is tabloid. Look if his department was heavy handed on one segment of the population remember that they were providing opportunity or do you think traffic tickets are invented, or drug offences don't happen except in the mind of the police

No he was offered an honerable solution and he took it, it is the way of beauracracy, you work for a pension and you are entitled to take it. It is a reward for past service and he must have done something right and if he was given a golden parachute just remember there is nowhere he is going to get a job at the same level again.

His past service was as police chief of a department that was DISBANDED, and maybe given the FACTS of his service HISTORY, he should NOT be rewarded and it would be an act of justice he NEVER gets a job of this level ever again.


The way I see it his contact probably had an early termination clause and you are reading the press beatup which is trying to inflame the locals and get some more revenue out of the result.

Getting fired would have been a just reward, and you cannot assume what his contract says.


Gutter press they call it or the polite name is tabloid.

Does that include your own presses regurgitated account of events?


Look if his department was heavy handed on one segment of the population remember that they were providing opportunity or do you think traffic tickets are invented, or drug offences don't happen except in the mind of the police

No wonder your rant is more of a ramble, you have NO facts just assumption based on your own bias, but I respect your right to your opinion, but the facts are pointing elsewhere. Yes the traffic tickets are invented and inflated beyond reasonable limits. What you don't know, is its worse in surrounding counties, and prevalent nationwide.

Keep defending institutional wrongdoing, and the REAL criminals that do it. Supporting such corruption is the problem that you have made yourself part of... on the wrong side.

Tal it sounds like you got a bad case of corruption over there, we used to have police forces like that here but we never made the mistake of having local law enforcement. What we got is a Commission against Corruption and it has taken down many a good ole boy including state politicians who thought they were above the law, You should get yourself one or two. As to my press version of events they only regurgitate what your sindicated press puts out, you might have noticed my verson of events came from the ABC a somewhat respected organisation in some parts of the world because they have no commercial axe to grind or media mogals with big agendas but they only have correspondents in your "fair" land.

I personally am for responsible policing but it needs to be without bias, which is very difficult when you have a community which doesn't respect the law and a law which doesn't respect the community. I cite recent events as evidence of my statement and my perch is secure on the spectator fence. i'm interested in the outcome because we have a certain element here who take their lead from your "civil rights" movement and if they see lawlessness succeeding we can expect they will try the same tactics and claim police brutality, bias, etc.. I am very much in sympathy with a community which has probably seen enough of violent protest and so I see the resignation, if that is what it was, as progress towards a brighter future and not a negative. Someone had to fall on their sword and it was his turn. I expect the Governor of that state should be next for allowing this situation to get as far as it has, but the electorate can deal with him, because you cannot say this situation would not have been apparent from afar off

It's still regurgitated news, second hand at best, and no inkling of independent investigation, so take it with a grain of salt as you should.

Glad your system works for you, but as I have told you many times before, the US has 5 times the people as Australia, and as you grow, so will the complexities of your own society, and structure, and the issues associated with that growth, so stop comparing us, to you, with your nose in the air like you have solved all your problems.

You are just getting started on your island.

but we never made the mistake of having local law enforcement. exactly what the emperor wants policing controlled by Washington. That in a nut shell what this is all about.

Yeah, because the locals are doing such a great job without Washington, right?

what better way to consolidate power in the central government ? !!!! A Common Core for policing ! It's already in motion with 'The President's Task Force on21st Century Policing ' that was published last week ;conveniently around the same time as this Ferguson report by the Justice Dept . Coincidence ? I don't think so.

http://www.cops.usdoj.gov/pdf/taskforce/Interim_TF_Report.pdf

It also comes a couple months after UN Sec General Ban Ki Moon called for the US police forces to comply with international standards ;whatever that means.

The emperor said :
“I’m going to be asking Eric Holder and the Justice Department and his successor to go through all of these recommendations so that we can start implementing them,” .... “I know one area that’s going to be of great interest is whether we can expand the [DOJ Office of Community Oriented Policing Services (COPS)] program that in the past has been very effective, continues to be effective, but is largely underfunded.”
And there is the key to his plan . He will continuously add more conditions to Federal funding that goes to local policing ;forcing them to toe the line. Of course that course of action would require Congressional consent ......except that we live in a post -Constitutional America.

It's still regurgitated news, second hand at best, and no inkling of independent investigation, so take it with a grain of salt as you should.

You obviously have no idea of how media works, stories about you are purchased from wire services, ditto for us. I have seen verbatum news articles about us on CNN that featured in local newspapers and vice a versa. Murdoch who owns News is Australian and his media empire originated here so don't look down your nose about our news services because you are looking down your nose at your own



Glad your system works for you, but as I have told you many times before, the US has 5 times the people as Australia, and as you grow, so will the complexities of your own society, and structure, and the issues associated with that growth, so stop comparing us, to you, with your nose in the air like you have solved all your problems.

Yes sometimes it does but once again you show your ignorance of us, The US is 15 times the population but we are not divdied up into 50 little states so our solutions are executed for state populations which may be similar to yours in many instances. However, we have an economy which is among the top twenty in the world demonstrating that our people are highly productive so we must be doing something right.It is big enough to face the loss of our car industry without whinning about it. If we have issues with growth it is that it is slowing down. If you think about these factors, as a reasoning man should, you would not be so dismissive because we are not the fountain of all wisdom and nor are you.



You are just getting started on your island

Again the dismissive as if you think about us like we are Haiti. You tell us not to look down our nose at you and yet you do the same to us. You are like the Oozlum bird, You should come down out of that rarified atmosphere sometime.This is not a little island, it is a land as vast and diverse as your own. The sixth largest country in the world not counting its Antarctic and marine territories. We have pastoral enterprises bigger than some of your states.You think of your own state as big, it is just a postage stamp compared to some.

It is for the most part well governed with less social problems because we have never permitted ourselves to be tainted by slavery and repression. Our history is not short and if we count the tales of some early inhabitants 40,000 years but our recent 200 year history is not something to be dismissed, it just wasn't as bloody as yours. We didn't need two revolutions to create our nation.

You obviously have no idea of how media works, stories about you are purchased from wire services, ditto for us. I have seen verbatum news articles about us on CNN that featured in local newspapers and vice a versa. Murdoch who owns News is Australian and his media empire originated here so don't look down your nose about our news services because you are looking down your nose at your own

That's a fair assessment, as I reject most what I call GENERIC news accounts be they yours, or the ones I have available.


Yes sometimes it does but once again you show your ignorance of us, The US is 15 times the population but we are not divdied up into 50 little states so our solutions are executed for state populations which may be similar to yours in many instances. However, we have an economy which is among the top twenty in the world demonstrating that our people are highly productive so we must be doing something right.It is big enough to face the loss of our car industry without whinning about it. If we have issues with growth it is that it is slowing down. If you think about these factors, as a reasoning man should, you would not be so dismissive because we are not the fountain of all wisdom and nor are you.

I do not dismiss the people or politics of your island at all Clete. You have much to be proud of, and hopeful about. Lets be clear it is YOUR dismissive attitude I blast, because I see it as both prejudiced and narrow, and take offense at your comparisons of my apples, and your oranges that boosts your ego by trying to take the US down a few pegs.

We didn't whine when our auto industry faced great challenges either, we overcame the challenges. Should I beat you over the head with that FACT, and claim intellectual superiority? That would be vastly unfair on my part wouldn't it?


Again the dismissive as if you think about us like we are Haiti. You tell us not to look down our nose at you and yet you do the same to us. You are like the Oozlum bird, You should come down out of that rarified atmosphere sometime.This is not a little island, it is a land as vast and diverse as your own. The sixth largest country in the world not counting its Antarctic and marine territories. We have pastoral enterprises bigger than some of your states.You think of your own state as big, it is just a postage stamp compared to some.

Quit making this about YOUR country Clete, as I always explain its about your opinions, and viewpoints, that we fail to agree on, and yes I do tend to be dismissive in that context of disagreement.


It is for the most part well governed with less social problems because we have never permitted ourselves to be tainted by slavery and repression. Our history is not short and if we count the tales of some early inhabitants 40,000 years but our recent 200 year history is not something to be dismissed, it just wasn't as bloody as yours. We didn't need two revolutions to create our nation.

You have to admit that you came along at the right time in history Clete, to avoid major wars and revolutions, I mean your colonizers left without a war, ours got the boot. So it was a case of more luck than skill, sorry to blow your bubble, but you still insist of comparing apples to oranges.

Your social problems will grow more complex when you have a more diverse and larger amount of cats to herd, Clete. I refer you to India, and China much older and larger in population than either of our nations. Or Europe, for that matter, yet we all are affected by global conditions, some more than others, and some actually make those policies, while some prosper in such a climate, expansion brings it's own cause and effects growth disparities.

When I refer to "YOU", I seldom mean your country, but what YOU have written and opined. There is a huge difference!

Tal I think I know when you are making a personal comment and let's put it this way we didn't come along at the right time in history, ours was an unknown land further from Europe than your own. Big difference between 3,000 miles and 12,000 miles. You could liken colonising Australia to colonising Mars. We didn't have revolution here because the British having had experience with unruly colonials in the americas suppressed any spark before it could gather momentum, and we didn't have 200 years to build up our population, also our people did not possess financial resources as yours did so we couldn't be conveniently taxed. The British also learned that permitting a certain level of local autonomy can also be in their favour and we had an orderly transition

In some respects we face similar challenges we both have systems of government that fail to implement good policy because of partisanism but externally we have similar views on tackling challenges. Internally, our methods and policies are very different and our views are not as polarised as yours

Okay Clete here's one for you in light of you yammering about minorities,

Watch What Happens When a White Guy With a Gun Confronts Police (http://bluenationreview.com/watch-happens-white-guy-gun-confronts-police/)

Tell me a mouthy black guy with a gun wouldn't get his arse kicked by the white cops!

I'm not sure what conclusion I'm supposed to draw from that, a mad man walking along a road? Or someone making a video of the snow, but a threat to public order, probably not. You obviously have a different level of tolerance because if it was a public carry here he would he bagged and tagged, not necessarily in that order

That's the sort of the reaction I thought you would have.

He wouldn't have to be black for that to happen we take guns seriously and we don't assume personal rights eclipse public safety anyway our "blacks" don't carry guns, we have not yet annoyed them to the point where they feel they need to

Good for you.

Yes Tal it is good for us because we don't need our police to feel every encounter is a potential kill or be killed. Nor does the average citizen need to feel intimidated by the presence of such people.

Okay Clete here's one for you in light of you yammering about minorities,

Watch What Happens When a White Guy With a Gun Confronts Police (http://bluenationreview.com/watch-happens-white-guy-gun-confronts-police/)

Tell me a mouthy black guy with a gun wouldn't get his arse kicked by the white cops!

It seems your theory is flawed. Lawful open carry is allowed by law. If you have a problem with that then that is where your anger needs to be adressed.

Black Open Carry: Why Gun Rights and Civil Rights Need Each Other - Reason.com (http://reason.com/reasontv/2015/02/05/black-open-carry-why-gun-rights-and-civi)

Is Open Carry Dangerous For A Black Man? - Black Man With A Gunâ„¢ (http://blackmanwithagun.com/is-open-carry-dangerous-for-a-black-man)

Man police shot in Walmart killed over fake gun, family says | www.daytondailynews.com (http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/news/man-police-shot-in-walmart-killed-over-fake-gun-fa/ngw77/)

And

12-year-old boy shot by Cleveland police has died | cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/11/12-year-old_boy_shot_by_clevel.html)

You explain the different ways cops treat people then.

Man police shot in Walmart killed over fake gun, family says | www.daytondailynews.com (http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/news/man-police-shot-in-walmart-killed-over-fake-gun-fa/ngw77/)

And

12-year-old boy shot by Cleveland police has died | cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/11/12-year-old_boy_shot_by_clevel.html)

You explain the different ways cops treat people then.



We dont know at this time why the police were called to the walmart. There is very little to go on other then what the girlfriend is saying. Id like to see the video before passing judgement on that one.

As far as the boy being shot that is different in that the police got a call saying someone was producing a gun and pointing it at people. There was no reliable source as to if it was fake or not until it was over. It is sad that it happened but if someone is waving a gun or mistakenly pulls it out even if it is fake then your most likely going to be shot.

So can I just get this straight, toy guns are treated as real these days

You tell me what you think. If the orange tip is missing or painted over it looks real to me.

Airsoft Guns - Airsoft GI - the largest airsoft store on the planet (http://www.airsoftgi.com/index.php?cPath=139)

I guess there is a replica for everything but those are not toys

It's a fact that children, or the mentally challenged, don't always respond appropriately to harsh command or when scared or surprised. The police having a shoot first ask questions later mentality is a lousy response at best and one of fear and not professionalism, and is the leading cause of these avoidable tragedies.

Video shows Dallas police shooting mentally ill man (http://www.wfaa.com/story/news/local/dallas-county/2015/03/16/dallas-polcie-body-camera-video-shows-shooting-death-of-mentally-ill-man-who-was-armed-with-screwdriver-2/24875447/)

Four cops and one guy with a screw driver?

Screwdriver, knife, does it matter? Such things can be offensive weapons but cops have ways of subdueing people that don't involve shooting they just don't choose to use them because there is still a risk. Don't know how it goes over there but cops have killed a number of suspects with tasers here in similar circumstances. The mentality may be more than ask questions later it maybe I'm the authority around here and you do what I say or you're dead

Did I mention 4 cops with NIGHTSTICKS, and tasers??

Yes well maybe your cops have more fun than ours, I haven't seen a baton in years, non lethal methods seem to have gone out of vogue even though they are much talked about

Most of our cops are not bad, its just some that make deadly, tragic mistakes.

Ditto, I'm unsure that ours actually make mistakes, I think their training directs them to take certain steps and with an unresponsive paniced suspect it leads to tradegy. High speed chases are a case in point

South Carolina protesters decry police shooting - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-32223868)

There can be no excuse for this action, even if the "suspect" was fleeing this is no reason to execute him and I use the word execute in context for this was an execution killing. Actions like this call for a whole new approach to policing, perhaps police should be relieved of their firearms so they can get in touch with the community again

I dont see the whole story in the video. It is hard to tell what is really going on for that situation. All you see is a reaction and someone being shot. From the way the story reads there was alot more to it.

The cop was fired and arrested . He will be tried and found guilty of murder .

Good thing a citizen caught the whole thing on camera. They had already started lying and sweeping it under the rug. Been hard to hide those bullet wounds to the back though.

There was no ambiguity . The cop used unnecessary and excessive force. Then he tried to plant false evidence to justify the murder. Who is the "they " who tried to sweep it under the rug ? I'll answer the question for you . It was officer Michael Thomas Slager who was trying to create a narrative where the shooting was justified . Multiple shots in the back would've completely discredited his narrative with or without the video.

It seems clear there is a policy of shoot first, yes this was excessive but a better term is unmitigated murder, what if he did run away, they had his car, they would know his identity, this is just mindless violence. I suggest he ran because he knew he was going to be killed This is gun culture at its worst

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-09/timeline-us-police-shootings-unarmed-black-suspects/6379472

you can make that speculation if you want to . Or you can listen to his parents and why they think he ran..... because he owed back child support ;because he had been arrested multiple times ,including one for assault and battery.....or maybe he did not want to get tasered .
This is all pretty irrelevent to the incident . The fact is that Slager was in no danger and had no real reason to gun him down.

Ezell Ford, investigation ongoing .

Akai Gurley ,office Peter Liang charged with manslaughter

Tamir Rice . Both officers involved put on administrate leave .An independent investigation by the Cuyahoga County Sheriff's Department is ongoing . Results will be handed to a Grand Jury

John Crawford . A Grand Jury decided to not charge the officers involved . The Justice Dept is doing it's own investigation.

Tony Terrell Robinson ;the shooting was justified .

Anthony Hill ,Georgia Bureau of Investigation investigation ongoing .

What does that prove, that there is a process or that more often than not there is a problem?

Maybe in order to understand things other sources need to be looked at.

OK, fine. Let's talk about 'black-on-black' violence. - Vox (http://www.vox.com/2014/8/25/6061449/black-on-black-crime-ferguson-murder-rate)

Yes but that doesn't offer much more than say there is disadvantage. Stop making excuses and understand that a whole different approach is needed. How many incidents are where there is a lone police officer? How many incidents are where there is a behavorial element such as non compliance with police directions. Could it be police methods are too heavy handed? Is there an assumption that a population will behave in a particular manner and why? Need I go on?

What does that prove, that there is a process or that more often than not there is a problem?

Yes there is a process . Sometimes the shooting is justified and sometimes not . It also proves that when not justified the cop is charged .

Also I would never disarm the cops . Last year there were 126 officers killed . 50 were killed by guns.

Perhaps they could be a little more selectively armed, but more that that that they operate in pairs because it seems these problem acts occur more often where there are lone officers the idea that each should have a personal camera is also good as it seems such devices lower the incidence of killings and remove the Judge Dredd culture

agree with the cameras . Cops here in the NY area patrol alone but almost always wait for backup .

The police chief in this SC town is asking for cameras for all his officers. Many others around the nation are also. We have also seen some disturbing video's caught on camera where questionable behavior was acquitted or deemed justified, so just cameras alone are not the total solution to bad cop behavior/decisions, or citizen deaths, or injury.

This has been an issue for a long time before it became so public. Now it has to be dealt with and all the factors that go into making this a big problem.

This has been an issue for a long time before it became so public. Now it has to be dealt with and all the factors that go into making this a big problem.

So why has it been a problem? Poor selection? Poor training? Police culture? I have observed that here the police is a blue collar job, is that the same there

Tal overstates the problem .

I recognize it for what it is, a symptom of a greater problem we have to deal with in our country.

Do you think there is a will to deal with such problems?

Is this indicative of the problem?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-32270655

??? a guy tries to off himself is indicative of nothing .

On the contrary it indicates he had a problem with some part of society, he shoots at the capital and offs himself, would indicate some resentment and a feeling of hopelessness.

If you are trying to say that everything is OK, I think there is evidence to the contrary but the solution...

He fired one shot at himself ... yes he had personal issues .In a nation of 319 people you'll find some of them .

The population is shrinking too many people offing themselves and others

Even with those that are offing themselves and others, the population is growing my overly pessimistic Aussie friend. :D

Yes you haven't found the cause yet, unlike your japanese friends, pity and that's optimism you are seeing

Could be PTSD, it's running rampant amongst veterans and first responders.

Come on karma you know that doesn't exist, stiff upper lip and all that. It is just the manefestation of an uncaring society.

We all get to the stage were we have seen enough and need to go do somethingelse. I can't imagine what successive rotations to Afghanistan and Iraq would do to you, the sense of hopelessness and maybe it's like that in the cities too, but I think it is more a loss of faith, when you have nothing to believe in but yourself where do you go?

but I think it is more a loss of faith, when you have nothing to believe in but yourself where do you go?So in your opinion those with PTSD are all unbelievers in your religion?

No I didn't say that, but unfortunately many have settled for a god of self and that is nowhere to be when you have problems. My comment was a general comment on the state of western society, Believers are a little thin in the ground in some places

So religion is the answer to western society ills? I think that's most of the problem since most true believers don't practice what they preach. At least not the ones who get elected.

many have settled for a god of self and that is nowhere to be when you have problems.Many settle their problems without a requirement for a belief.

One of my good friends is a veteran with PSTD and a regular church goer. He can't work though he's younger than I.
If you walked into a field of combat or a school after a shooting and saw innocent civilians with their heads blown off, this would not affect you uniquely because of your belief?

Karma, I'm not immune to such situations but I can tell you that healing is possible

Tal I'm not talking about religion, Smells and Bells don't cut it

You are the one who said flawed humans returning from war have no morality, and deny that they are even suffering mentally and emotionally,


Come on karma you know that doesn't exist, stiff upper lip and all that. It is just the manefestation of an uncaring society.

We all get to the stage were we have seen enough and need to go do somethingelse. I can't imagine what successive rotations to Afghanistan and Iraq would do to you, the sense of hopelessness and maybe it's like that in the cities too, but I think it is more a loss of faith, when you have nothing to believe in but yourself where do you go?

But you probably cannot imagine generations of bombs and gunfire so of course a lack of empathy for conditions beyond control of some makes you blame and shame. For some being alive is a struggle from day to day, and to say no trauma exists under those conditions is a sad commentary of your own belief system in my view, because then you share this gem of wisdom (Derision and sarcasm font was supposed to engage),


No I didn't say that, but unfortunately many have settled for a god of self and that is nowhere to be when you have problems. My comment was a general comment on the state of western society, Believers are a little thin in the ground in some places

So everybody is just godless by your judgement, and that's the problem while you fail yourself to be an example of your own god. You sound like Jerry Falwell without a TV show, or Rush Limbaugh without a microphone.

Just my general commentary on self righteous Australian society.

Thank you for your comment Tal, I can't imagine why you must take everything to the extreme perhaps it is that self righteous american in you speaking. There are fewer god fearing people than either you or I know but there are a lot of self righteous people around.

Your humor font is defective.

There are fewer god fearing people than either you or I knowThis is indeed good news!

I make that comment karma not because they don't believe but their actions speak for themselves

As do the actions of believers.

And athiests don't forget we are all in this boat together

Oh now we are all in the same boat. How convenient, but does that include all the other flawed humans you have been dumping on? Or just those you approve of?

Your boat seems to have preconditions attached to it.

And you enjoy rocking it Tal you know that my boat is open to all but you cannot go on the voyage without belief that's the price of the ticket. Some try to stowaway but unlike the muslims we don't throw people overboard because they they don't believe as we do. Karma is one of those who believes he can come on the voyage without a ticket, it is called the universal provider syndrome. I'm here so I must be entitled

Whatever floats YOUR boat.

OK I'll try this for the second time, why don't you tell us about your boat Tal?

come on the voyagewhat voyage?

OK I'll try this for the second time, why don't you tell us about your boat Tal?

Don't have a boat. This is how I roll,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvsAqkOhI48

What I got from that is you love going around in circles

The world is one big circle that goes round, and round. We humans just go with it.

So there is no need to go in ever dimishing circles

So where does Baltimore place everyone a mob of young people protesting police violence goes entirely over the top.

Are their actions seen as justified, did the police go too far?

This problem of community sentiment needs to be addressed by a different model since it is clear the existing model is failing

This problem of community sentiment needs to be addressed by a different model since it is clear the existing model is failing
Today it looks like the (black as well as white) adults have regained control and had peaceful demonstrations. I saw a video of one woman chasing and hitting at her masked teenage son, telling him behave and go home.

This problem of community sentiment needs to be addressed by a different model since it is clear the existing model is failing

You don't have to be anti-police to recognize something seriously wrong with a perp dying of a broken back while in custody. Union rules putting the custodial officers on paid vacation without even charging them vacation time during the investigation causes a lot of anger as well. Large crowds attract criminals, that's an axiom. Large angry crowds attracting violent criminals isn't much of a surprise.

So where does Baltimore place everyone a mob of young people protesting police violence goes entirely over the top.

Are their actions seen as justified, did the police go too far?

This problem of community sentiment needs to be addressed by a different model since it is clear the existing model is failing

We have no idea if it is actual community sentiment or if it is something completely different.



Craigslist Ad Recruited Paid Protesters to Oppose Abortion Legislation in Texas | CNS News (http://cnsnews.com/news/article/craigslist-ad-recruited-paid-protesters-oppose-abortion-legislation-texas)


Obama has DHS agents in Ferguson; pays protesters to justify martial law | Fellowship of the Minds (http://fellowshipoftheminds.com/2014/08/21/obama-has-dhs-agents-in-ferguson-pays-protesters-to-justify-martial-law/)

Well we won't get the actual news from those sad far-right web sites will we?

Well we won't get the actual news from those sad far-right web sites will we?

CNS is almost perfectly as far to the right as CNN is to the left, so check both. Slate and WND is another pair equally as biased. WaPo and NYT you can balance with Drudge and Breitbart. It's actually refreshing to see the same story slanted one way then the other.

WND and Breitbart are embarrassing to say the least.

WND and Breitbart are embarrassing to say the least.

As are the propaganda sheets the NYT and Washington Post have become.

So the problem isn't the people or the police it is the media, nice deflect

So the problem isn't the people or the police it is the media, nice deflect

Deflect? More of a sidetrack, as these threads so very often take off on. The problem in the U.S. is an "us versus them" attitude on both the police' and public's parts fostered and emphasized by a biased media.

So us v them, law and order v lawlessness, vigilante v justice, and no one has mentioned the underlying causes, hopelessness and poverty and a deeply entrenched racism. I heard some one say the answer was the particular brand of US capitalism and I said to myself yeah that will work it has done so well in creating this situation so it should be able to unwind it. You can see I'm unimpressed by such worthless arguments. The media isn't the problem even if it needs to temper its commentaries, the media haven't shot anyone, the media hasn't used excessive force, the media hasn't burned any buildings. The problem is there is an inconvenient truth that is playing out on the media and this inflames the sense of injustice particularly among the uneducated and this isn't helped by people like Sharpton.

It is apparent that the whole nature of policing these neighbourhoods needs to change and the confrontational nature of the interchange must give way to something else. Surely it is patiently obvious that a predominiently minority population might be better policed by members of that minority, if for no other reason than to remove the possibility of racial discrimination. That woman belting her son in the head shows you the way this must be dealt with, with engaged parenting, enforced curfews for certain groups of youth. A little one on one TLC. Not the police belting them in the head but the parents and community unleashed on all street crime.There needs to be enforced laws regarding lawful assembly and if that means the local gang can't hang out tough. Who knows who speeds in the streets, you don't need a cop to catch them just a set of community wheel clamps, who knows who deals in the streets but the community doesn't get involved because no one backs them up.

What you have is a huge problem with prception running roughshot over the masses. It seems that they want to define people into boxes and stereo types and hold them down in those confinements forever. It is time to break the mold and start seeing how things really are and not just through rose colored glasses.

If you have community involvement then you can have community standards. When you try to hide in the shadows then your only left with bits of sunshine. It is not poverty driven as many are trying to make it out to be. It is more about a weakened spirit then anything else. Those that profit from that wish to keep them down as long as possible as that is where they derive their income from. It is time to stop and to force change so you can break the preception.

What perception can you have when six cops are charged with murder. It is reported they had no probable cause for the arrest. I think the perception is clear. Sure there are social problems that underly mob violence but don't tell me there isn't employment for these people somewhere when you have millions of illegal immigrants. This weakened spirit argument suggests a slave will always be a slave. Perhaps you are right an oppressed people in another place would have taken up arms