Should people be allowed to secceed from a country?

A vote was taken, the result is a little questionable but undenieably a large percentage of the population wants to change their allegiences. Should they be allowed to without international interferrence? tell you true, I'm not interested in fighting a war over preventing people from leaving if they want to

Easy for Putin to get the vote he wanted when he had his special forces there to guarantee a fair election. I like the Putin doctrine. Maybe the ethnic Chinese in mineral rich Siberia have similar desires to break away from Rodina.

We did that already over here. About a century and a half ago. It wasn't pretty.

Easy for Putin to get the vote he wanted when he had his special forces there to guarantee a fair election. I like the Putin doctrine. Maybe the ethnic Chinese in mineral rich Siberia have similar desires to break away from Rodina.

Yes you would like the Putin doctrine, it sits right beside preemptive strikes. We all know the only thing attractive about Crimea is water and Putin would like to get even with some upstarts. I seriously don't know what the problem is, the Ukraine is an artificial country fought over for centuries by various empires and counter traditional to Europe which clings to the idea that ethnic groups should have their own country. I don't see this as any different to the breakup of Chechoslovakia, remember them, or Yugoslavia but I wouldn't like to see war as a result as we did in the Balkans

. We all know the only thing attractive about Crimea is water and Putin would like to get even with some upstarts.
Huh ? Have you forgotten that the Black Sea Fleet has been stationed there for years ? That Khrushchev ,an ethnic Ukrainian himself ,gave Crimea to Ukraine in 1954 even though it had been Russian by conquest over the Ottoman Turks in 1774 (annexed in 1783 )? The Russian majority population is not a recent development .


I don't see this as any different to the breakup of Czechoslovakia, remember them, or Yugoslavia but I wouldn't like to see war as a result as we did in the Balkans

Neither do I ... In the case of the Balkans ,we fought a war against Serbia ,to carve out a piece of Serbia that is now called Kosovo. Not much different than what Putin is doing now.... except perhaps there will be a lot less blood shed and destruction . So it's kinda cynical to start talking about territorial integrity now . Like I said ,Putin should be concerned that his ally China might have territorial ambitions of it's own ,where ethnic Chinese are the majority .

Crimea, by voting yes to russia, gave them better healthcare, better paying jobs, and, gosh, being able to eat properly was a big plus. And what would you vote for if you thought you could have all of these issues satisfied and your children could have decent food ?

Most of us here have plenty, and share with foods banks, at least they do where I live.

I wonder what we will hear if Quebec is able to disassociate with the rest of Canada and loose their privileges sustained over centuries and healthcare. This isnt so far off topic that needs considerable thought and it is closer to home. The Premier of Quebec, Marois, may come knocking on your door US.

Quebec would have to knock on France's door to have any sympathy, they speak French, remember.

Tom you have echoed what I was saying it is only attractive because of the water, unfrozen water and yes ethnically the people are Russian for the most part. I don't have an issue with people who are an ethnic majority doing their own thing, I personally think the NT in Australia becoming an aboriginal country would solve a lot of problems, see how they fair when you put all those loafers together, I can just see them defending themselves with nullanullas, boomerangs and spears from the asylum seekers but I digress.

call me a rebel if you want but I think a great disservice was done in your country when a war was fought to keep it together when there were people with unreconcilable views wanting to secceed. I think a great disservice would be done to the people of the Ukraine if a war was fought to keep Crimea or the russian speaking people in the east of the country if they want to leave and Europe should know a war would be economically devastating as it would cut the flow of gas. What has happen there so far has been relatively peaceful as revolutions go and that should be respected

There was no ethnic divide in the US .Nor was there an oppression against the Southern states . If anything ,it was the Southern states that were practicing oppression . Nor would there have been a war if one or more of the original states had decided to secede prior to the adoption of the Constitution. The rational certainly ended with the expansion of the nation . The new States territory was either purchased by the treasury of the United States ,or in the case of Texas ,was purchased with the blood of Americans.
Do you really think that the northern states should've just let them walk away ?

Revolutionaries pledge their lives to the cause for a reason. Just as it is an inherent right for oppressed people to fight to free themselves ,so do they forfeit any claim of protection granted to them by being a citizen of the country they rebel against .

The truth is that the constant compromising to keep the states unified allowed the South to dominate the national government in the years before the war, and enact laws that were favorable to keep an institution that was abhorrent to the majority of the nation intact . That was a fine deal for the south as long as the north acceded to the arrangement . But the north was becoming more populated and the political tides were turning against the south and their peculiar institution. So the south said "we are taking our football and going home".

Bottom line is that the South signed on to the contract called the Constitution ;and there is NO provision in it for the nation's disunion. Perhaps there was a peaceful solution ,but demagogues on both sides made it impossible Blood was spilled over the issue long before the war began.

Yes Tom I know but you allowed West Virginia to secede from Virginia, I don't see how that was different, given your logic a war should have been fought. Anyway that is all history and as I said I think a great disservice was done to your country and that mistake should not be repeated in the Ukraine, not after the people of Crimea have voted for secession. I know the idea that Putin should come out on top grates with you being the "leader" of the free world and able to impose your will but fact is you can't, it is all hot air and posturing and Putin knows it.

You talk about oppressed people fighting, well the people of Crimea feel they are oppressed and yet you would deny their right to fight or leave. Democracy is only a word where you live, you have so much of it you wouldn't recognise it if it bit you on the bum

Yes Tom I know but you allowed West Virginia to secede from Virginia, I don't see how that was different, given your logic a war should have been fought. Anyway that is all history and as I said I think a great disservice was done to your country and that mistake should not be repeated in the Ukraine, not after the people of Crimea have voted for secession. I know the idea that Putin should come out on top grates with you being the "leader" of the free world and able to impose your will but fact is you can't, it is all hot air and posturing and Putin knows it.

You talk about oppressed people fighting, well the people of Crimea feel they are oppressed and yet you would deny their right to fight or leave. Democracy is only a word where you live, you have so much of it you wouldn't recognise it if it bit you on the bum
I have taken no such position on Crimea. Here is the time line for you lest you forget .. 1st Spetsnaz forces entered the Crimea ,then Putin amassed troops on the border .... THEN the people of Crimea "freely voted " to secede . Perhaps that indeed is their free will. But we will never know since the outcome was guaranteed at the point of a gun.
I have taken no position in support of intervention. I just think it would be schadenfreude to see the Chinese carve out a piece of Siberia under the Putin pretext. As you know ,your buddies in Beijing are not shy about taking what they want from their weaker neighbors.

yeh good luck with that on both counts, I can't see the chinese taking over Siberia but I can see the russians taking over Crimea

There is little the West can do other than political pressure and economic sanctions. Maybe the rest of Ukraine will consider joining The EU and NATO, but that would anger Russia and they could threaten to cut off oil and gas shipments to Ukraine and Western Europe. Hope it doesn't affect the stock markets too much.

the armaments stocks should boom and hey presto a new market for US Oil and Gas, I should worry too much the US will ride a resurrgance based on war profits it always has

yeh good luck with that on both counts, I can't see the chinese taking over Siberia but I can see the russians taking over Crimea


Ok then how about the Uighurs and Tibetans voting to secede ? How about the Kurds in Iraq ,Iran ,Turkey and Syria ? How about some Chechen separatist move ?
Where does your scenario end ? The Basques ? Venice ? Quebec and Scotland ? Do you really see a serious scenario where these ethnic groups carve out their own independent nations from existing governments peaceably ?
Maybe you think the reconquista movement in the US should be allowed to peacefully carve out the Southwest US from the country ? Maybe Russia can reclaim Alaska ,and the French the American midwest.
You have always argued in favor of border integrity . What changed ?

Border integrity is important and shouldn't be given away on a whim but let is examine the case, the Ukraine is an artificial construct and the Crimea was an automonous region a republic anyway so the people of this region have voted enmass. I applauded when East Timor won freedom from Indonesia on exactly the same grounds, and Scotland will shortly vote to determine whether they should leave the UK, don't have a problem with it since the people had no say in the union in the first place. maybe Quebec should leave Canada if they feel strongly enough about it, and maybe the territories you took by conquest from Mexico should be given back to the hispanics, solves your illegals problem. I know the whole issue creates a problem for Israel, but let the UN solve that one, they created it. we have to face the fact that there are peoples in the world who should have their own country if that is what they want and they represent a majority in the region, why should there be war because ancient boundries have been disturbed by conquest and the people want reunification, It happened in Germany, should happen in Korea

When I speak of border integrity I'm speaking about invasion, no country should be subject to invasion and that goes for Ukraine, the US, Australia, Europe

we are really getting tough now. Sec State JF Kerry announced that US has frozen Putin’s Netflix account, effective immediately.

yes your polies talk a great line of bull, and maybe Kerry is setting himself up for another run. The whole Russian parliament told you to put them on the sanction list. If that wasn't up yours! I don't know what is. History is against you, you support the Jews taking land which was historically theirs, you should support the people of the Crimea for the same reason, but no you are two faced in your international dealings and we have to ask how much racism is involved here. Favouring Slav v non Slav, or religious favouritism, Catholic West v Orthadox East. i think this time Putin has got your number

Quebec would have to knock on France's door to have any sympathy, they speak French, remember.

Yes, I know they speak french, actually a patois. I live next door to them. France already had them, probably doesn't want them, and wouldn't know what to do with them anyway.

Both sides have to tone down the rhetoric or they could stumble into places they don't want to go and can't back out of . Obama owes Putin one or more due to the fact that he conned Putin into accepting a no-fly zone in Libya ;and used it as a pretext to overthrow Q Daffy . He also owes Putin for bailing his a$$ out of the fire when he painted himself in a corner over "red lines " he had no intention of enforcing in Syria.

The US and Russia have common interests that need to be expanded ;including cooperation in the war against jihadistan ,a resolution of the Iran nuke issue among others . We should back off of thoughts of expanding NATO to the borders of Russia. NATO is an impotent alliance without a purpose anyway. We should instead be looking to a non-aligned Ukraine. That's the best we can hope for without a hot conflict. NATO in Ukraine is a Russian red-line just like Russian nukes in Cuba was for us.

yes this is where the rhetoric hits the road, Europe isn't worried about Russia, it is bad for business to provoke them, only the US could gain from conflict, but you can't afford to fight a war you can't win. You are far away and it would take a long time to build up resources, you cannot rely on your Nato allies, you couldn't in Iraq, even to take Iraq it took months of preparation, Putin isn't blind, he knows this, and besides your taste for war is a little sour these days.Ukraine may become another Hungary or Chechoslovakia unless Obama keeps his head

actually a patoisWe call it "joual" <Québécois here>. That's typical of for the worker language, the educated folks speak more "proper: French. Marois will likely be defeated so the whole cycle will continue.

Yes our Euro 'allies' are a problem . But if we were fracking and giving them an alternative to being beholden to Russia for natural gas ,maybe they would grow some spine.

you couldn't produce enough gas from fracking and the ability to transfer gas in that volume would take years to develop. If there is a crisis they would need a solution in six months, so no joy there. Take a look at the map of Ukraine and the number of pipelines into Europe. Any conflict will bring Europe to a standstill. The Russians know this, thus the move to secure a gas asset

also they want the West Ukraine lands where the shale deposits are located . You see ;while the US gvt blocks efforts to drill ,the rest of the world is full speed ahead .

LOL, with actual production rising here Tom, you think we need to drill baby drill. Relax, we're just going to burn it up anyway. ALL OF IT!!

LOL, with actual production rising here Tom,
No thanks to the emperor . We could be the Saudi Arabia of natural gas if our leaders would act to make it so.

pipe dreams

You don't like emperors, but want to be a sheik who hoards all the loot in his country? What's this "we" sh1t kimosabe?

he has dillusions of grandeur and former glories, it happens in empires during decline

It's good that Russia was suspended from the G8. I wonder if they could be suspended from the UN security council too, they would lose their veto over UN resolutions. That would send a message to Putin.

This is a storm in a teacup it will all blow over once the righteous outrage is exhausted

no it won't because it won't end there any more than it ended with Putin carving up Georgia.

Obama should really be happy... him and Putin are BFF's.

Tom Georgia is the same argument Putin used in Crimea so your thinking is east of the Dniepnr is Russian territory and Putin will risk everything. He doesn't have the backing of the population in that region, language is one thing and ethnicity is another. These people have long memories, they remember the Russian invader just as they remember the German invader, why do you think the term nazi has arisen again? What is a real problem here is Kyiv is considered sacred ground by the Russians

State Dept gets tough with Putin. I'm sure this selfie will turn the tide :
45865

sorry, I don't get it

I'll let an Aussie publication explain it to you
Uproar over senior US official Jen Psaki's 'selfie' support for Ukraine | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/world/europe/uproar-over-senior-us-official-jen-psakis-selfie-support-for-ukraine/story-fnh81p7g-1226868032237)

Yeh like that will be effective

That's not a selfie. Huh, old fogies. LOL

Russia raised the price of gas to Ukraine. Time to fast track US exports to Europe.
NATO Orders End to Cooperation With Russia - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/russia-hikes-gas-price-ukraine-23138815)

yes by all means take advantage of the Ukrainians in their crisis, there are profits to be made and coffers to be raided

I would offer it at discount rates ...sorta a 21st century Marshall Plan for Eastern Europe.

you don't really think you could discount Russian prices without passing the costs into your own economy do you? I doubt you have the financial capacity for such a plan these days, afterall you are already screaming about the deficits of this administration

Exxon Welcomes Russia's Rosneft Into Gulf of Mexico (http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/03/06/news-exxon-welcomes-russias-rosneft-into-gulf-of-2.aspx)

Russia signs exploration deal with Exxon - Europe - Al Jazeera English (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2013/02/201321323958175681.html)

Lots of big deals would go south really fast if Russia was to trigger additional sanctions.

and ? Since when do you care about Exxon Mobile ?

Fact is noone cares about an individual company unless they are an investor but there is a ripple effect forget teh pipedream of supplying Ukraine from North America, perhaps your saudi friends can profit. Ukraine should have thought about the implications before shaking hands with the EU

Exxon Welcomes Russia's Rosneft Into Gulf of Mexico (http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/03/06/news-exxon-welcomes-russias-rosneft-into-gulf-of-2.aspx)

Russia signs exploration deal with Exxon - Europe - Al Jazeera English (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2013/02/201321323958175681.html)

Lots of big deals would go south really fast if Russia was to trigger additional sanctions.

I don't, but big profits is the leverage against further Russian aggression in the region.


Fact is noone cares about an individual company unless they are an investor but there is a ripple effect forget teh pipedream of supplying Ukraine from North America, perhaps your saudi friends can profit. Ukraine should have thought about the implications before shaking hands with the EU

The investor class is who rules Russia. An a sovereign Ukraine doesn't have to take orders from Russian thugs. They can shake hands with who they please. You talk as if they should just rollover for Putin.

I don't, but big profits is the leverage against further Russian aggression in the region.

Or maybe Putin is an enviro-wacko and wants west Ukraine to prevent them from fracking .

Russia has environmental concerns over Ukraine's fracking plans (http://www.mining.com/russia-is-getting-queasy-about-ukraines-shale-plans-42366/)

you talk as if they should just rollover for Putin

Put it this way Tal there are many implications for their turning away from traditional and long relationships and cultivating the EU which is just as expansionist as Russia, It isn't as though they didn't have competing offers on the table, whereas they have little relationship with the US who is using them to prod Putin, who would feel very vulnerable, just as you would if Mexico wanted to join the EU

You really don't understand the paranoia left over from WWII, and that is because your neighbours didn't invade you and murder millions of your population

Don't be so dramatic Clete. Its all about the money, and Putin playing hardball after they kicked his stooge out of Keiv.

Or maybe Putin is an enviro-wacko and wants west Ukraine to prevent them from fracking .

Russia has environmental concerns over Ukraine's fracking plans (http://www.mining.com/russia-is-getting-queasy-about-ukraines-shale-plans-42366/)

I can't believe that Tom, it's a ploy to protect their markets. However we do need take a second look at fracking, there are serious environmental concerns which cannot be ignored just because some multinationals think they have a new nation to exploit

Yes All those neo-cons in the Obama Adm prodded Vlad the Invador to move .

Vlad does what Vlad does, he needs no encouragement from the west but as I said before the Russians are paranoid

fine I get that . They have reasons to be. Geography . They have no natural land borders separating them from any of their neighbors. That's why they are always pushing West and South.

I'll also concede that we blew a golden opportunity when the Soviets fell to support democracy there . NATO ,an organization without a mission started to invent them by pushing east (and lately into Africa ) . When Vlad justifies his actions by comparing them to our land grab against Serbia ,he has a point.
Under normal circumstances I would've supported a democratic secession of Crimea and an annexation by Russia. But Vlad had made it his doctrine that all his neighbors are but appendages in his attempt to restore Russia to it's former glory .

Yes and he may be mad enough to do it, but a war with Europe will bankrupt his economy which is heavily dependent on oil and gas sales. It is actually Hitler in reverse. Hitler wanted "living space" and minerals, particularly oil, whereas Putin has no shortage of those but has lost a lot of people and has a declining population.

The great problem with the west is it is confrontational while shouting democracy from a base that is far from democratic. The people of Crimea made a decision we don't like the way it was done, but it was democratic, at least as democratic as we might do it, but there was no outside oversight

There is no simple answer to the question of whether people should be allowed to secede from their country.

Woodrow Wilson proposed the idea of "self-determination", but that was in the context of WW1 after the Imperial powers had been defeated, and Austria-Hungary having been a state full of different ethnic groups. The Balkans didn't shake themselves out until 70 years later.

Abraham Lincoln believed the American South had no right to secede since they were part of a "Federated Republic". The South saw it differently and formed a "CON-federation", a different system

Colonies, of course, are an altogether different proposition, and would seem to always have the right to secede from the mother country.

The Crimea was not really a secession. It was an annexation by a neighboring country. But this is probably semantics. Ukranian law prohibited the Crimean action, but, in the face of Russian tanks, law took a back seat.

Bottom line - if you want to secede, better have plenty of firepower.

However, an interesting situation looms with Scotland. My guess is that it will be done without force of arms as long as the Scots want it.

obviously the Scots want it otherwise it wouldn't be a question. The Scots have had hundreds of years of oppression and follow the people of Ireland in wanting out from under the english thumb. The people of Crimea felt they were oppressed. fact is; the american south should have been allowed to secede since what Wilson proposed was one rule for some and something else when the policy supported it. It might be inconvenient but all people should have the right to form their own nation. I would support the australian aboriginee creating their own nation in the north if they wanted it, what's one more failed state in a world of failed states?

Wilson and the South were two widely separated eras.

But, why would you support a state to fail in Australia? (If I read you correctly).

Btw, the Scotland issue is not as obvious as you may think.

I have lived in Scotland, the issue is obvious. and entirely transparent. I wouldn't want a failed state in either place, but in the case of Australia the creation of such a state may even be a positive since it would give the aboriginal people something to aspire to and living conditions could hardly be worse. If they were a seperate state we could provide them with foriegn aid, a different regime to the provisions existing at the moment, they would be deregulated and could attract industries, etc

I don't know much about Australia. How would foreign aid be different from "existing provisions"? Is this a racial thing? I'm not criticizing, I'm asking.

If the Scotland issue is so obvious, why is it still not achieved?

Scotland: Divorce is never an easy process


Australia: we have a very disdvantaged group in northern Australia and much money is poured in there with little effect, but laws prevent the establishment of say; special development areas where wages are lower, etc. If it were a seperate nation in charge of its own development, the handout mentality might change and the people feel empowered, plus development would be at their own pace, managed by their own people and implemented according to their own ideals, which seem very different to the rest of the country and aid could take entirely different forms

much development is stymied by cultural issues, sacred places and all that. they would be free to pursue their own culture which is a vastly different value system to the rest of the country

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1440-1584.1999.00264.x/full

whereas we genuinely screw our native population. The Federal Gvt has this antiquated agency called Bureau of Indian Affairs which thinks that the only way our natives can prosper is if they run casinos .

Yes we are no so enlightened, our natives have various business opportunities, tourism, cultural guides, cattle raising but of couse this gives opportunity to very few whereas the the real money making enterprises are in the hands of our enterpreneurs. paternalism doesn't equal development or equality

Is Donetsk the next Crimea ?

eastern Ukraine would always be problematic but earlier indications were that the people might speak russian but were not inclinded to join Russia, so some troublemakers from the old regime. This happens when there is a vacuum caused by undemocratic takeovers not legitimised by elections

you mean like Russian nationals storming the gvt building ? What happens when Russian nationals in Latvia ,Lithuania ,Estonia decide they need to carve out pieces of their country for Mother Russia ? These nations all have NATO membership.

Tom you know the answer as well as I do, we might see insurrections all over the former USSR, there are a lot of Russians scattered about. The question here is whether we have a small minority of malcontents or a movement. You could bet Russia doesn't want large numbers of new poor citizens, it might remember Germany it took a while to straighten out reunification and how much NATO wants a war. nature abhors a vacuum and the Ukraine right now is a vacuum

Unfortunately, those few malcontents are a great excuse for Putin to invade the Ukraine to protect Mother Russian citizens.

Russia has a long history of invading to protect Russian minorities. However today we have a vastly different geopolitical situation, these places are not as isolated as they once were

When President Bill Clinton signed a 1994 agreement promising to “respect” the territorial integrity of Ukraine if it gave up its nuclear weapons, there was little thought then of how that obscure diplomatic pact – called the Budapest Memorandum – might affect the long-running defense partnership between the United States and Japan.
But now, as American officials have distanced themselves from the Budapest Memorandum in light of Russia’s takeover of Crimea, calling promises made in Budapest “nonbinding,” the United States is being forced at the same time to make reassurances in Asia. Japanese officials, a senior American military official said, “keep asking, ‘Are you going to do the same thing to us when something happens?’
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/06/world/asia/us-response-to-crimea-worries-japanese-leaders.html

Yes an interesting question I would like to know the answer myself in reference to the ANZUS treaty. it is a big question, can the US be trusted to meet its treaty obligations in all instances? If you can sell the Ukraine up the creek, you can sell any of us

That's only true under Obama... luckily he's legally prohibited from running for office a third time... so the wholesale vote fraud that got him in the last two times can't do it a third time.

Unless Hillary gets in... she is likely to be just as bad. She's just say..."what difference does it make?" in her shrew like grating voice....

Unless Hillary gets in... she is likely to be just as bad

It's a long time to a presidential election, what's the mood over there, would they do it again?

45942

Ukraine: Jews Served Notice to Register or Face Deportation | (http://www.dcclothesline.com/2014/04/18/ukraine-jews-served-notice-register-face-deportation/)

Hmmm

that is Russian agitprop . There is a history of anti-Semitism in the region and Vladdy would like to portray himself as their protector .

let's put it this way Tom noone wants another pogrom, the jews must not become the excuse for the invasion of the Ukraine

I'm just relieved that Vladdy the Invader has decided he has no interest in Alaska .
Vladimir Putin Says Alaska Is Too Cold To Annex (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/17/vladimir-putin-annex-alaska_n_5166598.html)

Apparently it is the Russians in eastern Ukraine who want to round up the jews and I think the Russians got a good deal when they got rid of Alaska why would they want it back, too far from home

Ukraine Accord Doubts Grow as Protesters Refuse to Disarm - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-04-18/ukraine-accord-doubts-grow-as-protesters-refuse-to-disarm.html)

Will Vlad sign off?

it was DOA before the ink dried. Vlad may not be in a position to control the situation ;but I suspect it is all going according to plan.

Vlad gets what he wants the Crimea without any opposition, everyone has forgotten about it, One by one the dominos will fall, this is the same game fifty years on