In the past few weeks, there have been outbreaks of measles and other preventable diseases in parts of the U.S. and Canada near Vancouver. They have all been linked to these anti-vaccination idiots like Jenny McCarthy. I think it is time to make vaccinations mandatory before there is a pandemic. I think that public health and safety would outweigh personal and religious freedom if there was a court challenge. What are everyone's thoughts about this?

I'm all for it... certain groups hide under the umbrealla by claiming one thing or anothers is for "the common good" when it doesn't apply. This actually does.

There may be an argument that "anti-vaccine idiots " are responsible for the outbreak. But you cannot deny the illegal immigrant connection. Among the 159 cases of measles from January 1–August 24, 2013,no case began in the United States.
Measles — United States, January 1–August 24, 2013 (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6236a2.htm)
Diseases like tuberculosis, polio are also making their way into the country through the open border. Malaria was eradicated and is making a comeback . Dengue fever was unheard of .... Not anymore. Hansen’s disease(leprosy) has increased 10x since 1940 .
I favor mandatory vaccination . Where is the Ellis Island on the southern borders to screen potential entrants ?

Among the 159 cases of measles from January 1–August 24, 2013,no case began in the United States.
Measles — United States, January 1–August 24, 2013 (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6236a2.htm)
Many were of domestic origin. Only 42 were importations -- "A total of 159 cases of measles were reported during this period. Most cases were in persons who were unvaccinated (131 [82%]) or had unknown vaccination status (15 [9%]). Forty-two importations were reported, and 21(50% [of those]) were importations from the World Health Organization (WHO) European Region."

Living in a small town has drawbacks such as lousy service and product choice at stores, dumb, inbred people, lack of culture and awful weather where I live, but one major advantage is that there are fewer cases of drug-resistant bacteria in hospitals and other diseases so I'm glad to be in a small town most of the time.

Many were of domestic origin. Only 42 were importations -- "A total of 159 cases of measles were reported during this period. Most cases were in persons who were unvaccinated (131 [82%]) or had unknown vaccination status (15 [9%]). Forty-two importations were reported, and 21(50% [of those]) were importations from the World Health Organization (WHO) European Region."

Nice cherry picking ... From the sentence right before the one you quote :
Among the 159 cases, 157 (99%) were import-associated, and two had an unknown source

Nice cherry picking ... From the sentence right before the one you quote :
Among the 159 cases, 157 (99%) were import-associated, and two had an unknown source
That sentence comes LATER in the article and refutes the earlier data.

So where do you live, earl, somewhere in Canada? Your description of your community, and I hate to say to say this because it isn't who I am, is it Inuit ? After you answer, I will chime in.

So where do you live, earl, somewhere in Canada? Your description of your community, and I hate to say to say this because it isn't who I am, is it Inuit ? After you answer, I will chime in.

I'm not Inuit, I live in Eastern Canada, that's as specific as I'll get for privacy reasons.

That's OK I didn't need you to say the town!

Mandatory vaccinations in Canada are illegal. It isn't in our constitution.

I don't think earl, our constitution can be changed anymore then 'south of the border' can change there's.

As for Jenny McCarthy, after all the flack she received for mouthing off about something she had no understanding about, has dug herself a hole to hide in with her un-vaccinated kids, susceptible to any airborne or communicable disease the US has to offer.

Our native Canadians get as much help god knows that they can handle.

parents are still the front line to vaccinations for their children in Canada, and still cannot be enrolled in school without proof this has been done within the first four years of life.

Texas measles outbreak linked to church (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/08/23/texas-measles-outbreak/2693945/)


The outbreak was started by a visitor to the church who had recently traveled to a country where measles remains common, according to Tarrant County Public Health spokesman Al Roy.

That's my case for getting vaccinated,

I say no to forcing vaccinations, and yes to not allowing kids into public schools without them. Since education is mandatory, the options become private school (where they can set their own rules) or home school.

I believe in options whenever possible. We don't send people around to test homes with children for cigarette smoke, or any number of 'policing' actions.

speaking from far away I don't understand the problem with vaccinations we had eliminated many diseases in the general population, tuberculosis, measles, polio, putussis to name a few until we started to have an intake from countries where these things are still endemic and now we are getting general alerts for them because these people don't vaccinate and carry the disease. Vaccination is a public health initiative which proved very effective and the good work has been undone by idiots

Before we dismiss the people who oppose it ,it should be revealed that 5,100 vaccine-related deaths were reported in the U.S between 1990 and August 2012. 60 percent of the deaths occurred in children under the age of three. 360 of the reported vaccine-associated deaths in the US have been related to any of the measles-containing vaccines (usually given in combination with other vaccines.). Less than 10 percent of vaccine side effects are ever reported, so the true side effects and deaths are easily higher than the reported statistics represent....possibly by a factor of 10.
Dr. Larry Palevskyis a board-certified pediatrician trained at the New York School of Medicine, and one of the leading physicians in the country . Here is what he says on the issue :
"
I think that if you ask most of my colleagues where they get their information, they will say that they read it from the American Academy of Pediatrics, from the AMA, from the CDC, and in their journals. But I would like to challenge most of my colleagues to look through the studies themselves to actually see if the proper scientific studies were done using a proper study group and a proper control group.

Were the ingredients in vaccines properly studied?
Is there a difference between being exposed to a virus, bacteria, heavy metal or toxin through the air, food, your intestines and your skin, versus when it's injected into your body?
Have we really looked at what happens to vaccine materials once injected into a child? And is an antibody sufficient to provide protection for a child against disease?

More and more studies are coming out to show that:


The proper studies haven't been done and antibodies are not the final way in which your body is protected
There is a difference between how children process material through air and food versus through injection
There are particles in vaccines that do accumulate in your body and cause impairments in your immune system
There are particles in the vaccines that get into your brain and there are foreign DNA particles that get into your body



Over the years, I kept practicing medicine and using vaccines and thinking that my approach to vaccines was completely onboard with everything else I was taught.
But more and more, I kept seeing that my experience of the world, my experience in using and reading about vaccines, and hearing what parents were saying about vaccines were very different from what I was taught in medical school and my residency training.
… and it became clearer to me as I read the research, listened to more and more parents, and found other practitioners who also shared the same concern that vaccines had not been completely proven safe or even completely effective, based on the literature that we have today.
… It didn’t appear that the scientific studies that we were given were actually appropriately designed to prove and test the safety and efficacy.

It also came to my attention that there were ingredients in there that were not properly tested, that the comparison groups were not appropriately set up, and that conclusions made about vaccine safety and efficacy just did not fit the scientific standards that I was trained to uphold in my medical school training.”

Expert Pediatrician Discusses Vaccines (Part 1/11) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2IgLj2If44&list=PL63BA6F4C1F7422EA)

5,100 deaths in 22 years is minuscule. That is like saying you shouldn't go outside because you might get hit by lightning. Jonas Salk would be screaming in frustration if he were alive.

so take the commerce out of producing vaccines, that is where the problem lies

If EVERYONE was forced to be vaccinated... many diseases might be ended...How about holding the unvaccinated civily and criminially liable if they contract and spread a disease a vaccine esists for. Their choice ...but then they assume ALL the risk.

You can't FORCE someone to be vaccinated. There is a form called an AMA form (Against Medical Advice). They can simply sign that to opt out of the vaccination. To force someone to do something against their/their parents will is called assault.

Erythromycin ointment in the eyes of a baby during the first hour after birth is a law in many locations, yet many parents have refused that simply by signing the AMA form.

5,100 deaths in 22 years is minuscule. That is like saying you shouldn't go outside because you might get hit by lightning. Jonas Salk would be screaming in frustration if he were alive.

so is 158 cases reported .

You can't FORCE someone to be vaccinated. There is a form called an AMA form (Against Medical Advice). They can simply sign that to opt out of the vaccination. To force someone to do something against their/their parents will is called assault.

Erythromycin ointment in the eyes of a baby during the first hour after birth is a law in many locations, yet many parents have refused that simply by signing the AMA form.

I support the right to refuse treatment if only their own health is at risk, but not when it becomes a risk for public safety. There are cases when the greater good outweighs individual freedoms. For example smoking is no longer allowed in public areas and workplaces when it was a generation ago.

I was a child before there were vaccines, even before the polio vaccine was developed and put into popular use. I spent many weeks in bed and missing school because I got measles multiple times, mumps, rubella, and chicken pox. Thankfully, I never got whooping cough. No one knew yet what caused polio. Public pools were closed during the summers in hopes of avoiding contagion. People even suspected stray dogs (of which there were many) of being polio carriers. I was scared and didn't want to spend the rest my life in an iron lung (please Google Images for that). Thankfully, I was spared that too.

Years later when I had children during the '70s, I made sure they were inoculated against those diseases I had endured and those I had escaped.

I support the right to refuse treatment if only their own health is at risk, but not when it becomes a risk for public safety. There are cases when the greater good outweighs individual freedoms. For example smoking is no longer allowed in public areas and workplaces when it was a generation ago.

Yes, Earl, smoking is prohibited, but you aren't forcing people to take a medication that they aren't willing to take.

In the medical community, and I am a registered nurse, to force a person to take medication/vaccines against their will constitutes assault.

You can't FORCE someone to be vaccinated. There is a form called an AMA form (Against Medical Advice). They can simply sign that to opt out of the vaccination. To force someone to do something against their/their parents will is called assault.

Erythromycin ointment in the eyes of a baby during the first hour after birth is a law in many locations, yet many parents have refused that simply by signing the AMA form.

Clearly that is correct... I personally was just musing a "what if" type situation. I'm guessing some others were doing the same. Being this is the Current events forum....where the discussions aren't bound by the constraints of reality or the law most of the time.

People seem to be getting dumber every generation. I grew up during the 80s and I don't remember any of this anti-vaccination garbage back then. It was seen as something as routine as going to the dentist and no one questioned it. Watch the 2006 movie "Idiocracy". It was supposed to be a satire and science fiction, but it is becoming a reality.

People seem to be getting dumber every generation. I grew up during the 80s and I don't remember any of this anti-vaccination garbage back then. It was seen as something as routine as going to the dentist and no one questioned it. Watch the 2006 movie "Idiocracy". It was supposed to be a satire and science fiction, but it is becoming a reality.

Becoming Reality? There is more reality in that movie than most people are willing to accept.

Yes a great deal of idiocy and we can put it down to getting our facts from video games

The search is for a reason for autism. During the 1950s, the psychologist Bruno Bettelheim (based on the theories of psychiatrist Leo Kanner) accused parents, in particular mothers, of being cold and unfeeling toward their children who had been diagnosed with autism or schizophrenia -- thus the term "refrigerator mothers" became popular and the accepted cause of autism. Once that theory was disproved, the witch hunt continued, and vaccinations became the culprit. That has now been disproved, but is still a worry among certain groups.

I remember migraines and homosexuality were actually considered mental illnesses as recently as the 1970s, hardly the dark ages.

Why did you negative me? This is an OPINION post.

Why did you negative me? This is an OPINION post.

It wasn't me, I know ratings are not supposed to be given for opinions. Check with the moderator, maybe they can undo it.

Wasn't me either...

wasn't me either what

Post #29 explains it.

People seem to be getting dumber every generation. I grew up during the 80s and I don't remember any of this anti-vaccination garbage back then. It was seen as something as routine as going to the dentist and no one questioned it. Watch the 2006 movie "Idiocracy". It was supposed to be a satire and science fiction, but it is becoming a reality.

Many of the more "recent" choices for foregoing vaccinations stem from the much publicized MMR/autism connection according to Dr. Wakefield and his co-researchers. It was later refuted, but the perceived connection had already been set in motion and, like most articles that get denounced, it didn't receive as much attention as the original claim. The MMR vaccine and autism: Sensation, refutation, retraction, and fraud (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3136032/)

You know, while we are forcing health care, over population, families on welfare with more kids than they can afford. America and Canada, should follow the example of China and only allow one child. After one child they force abortion or sterilization.

Since religious and personal rights have no meaning, we need to do this for the good of the nation.

You don't have to force abortion in America, just stop the religious ones against it, from try to ban it. My kids got vaccinated because it made common sense to protect them from the ones who don't believe in such things.

Chuck in case you hadn't noticed China is a godless society, so we won't be adopting any of their values any time soon. Just because they have to cope with a serious over population problem is no reason to use their methods. Look we all know the answer, a television in every room, every woman taking contraception and lots of food, obese women have less children. You want to solve society's problem give them chocolate and Mcdonalds. I'm surprised it hasn't solved all your problems but give it ten years. Now for India we need a different solution, perhaps they have found it for themselves, AIDS but again I recommend chocolate and curried mutton hamburgers

Australian Vaccination-skeptics Network loses its charity status for fundraising over misinformation claims - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-18/australian-vaccination-skeptics-network-banned-from-charity-sta/5327378)


Some of the antics of the anti-vaccination lobby can be misleading and one group got away with it for a while but, now the axe has fallen
no more free money, suggest you have your IRS take similiar steps or would that be too political?

much publicized MMR/autism connection according to Dr. Wakefield Ah yes... him.


Andrew Jeremy Wakefield (born 1957) is a British former surgeon and medical researcher, known for his fraudulent 1998 research paper in support of the now-discredited claim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy)that there is a link between the administration of the measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine), and the appearance of autism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism) and bowel disease.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield#cite_note-WakefieldarticleBMJ-1)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield#cite_note-retractions-2)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield#cite_note-Time_great_frauds-3)[4]
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield#cite_note-4)Four years after the publication of the paper, other researchers' results had still failed to reproduce (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproducibility) Wakefield's findings or confirm his hypothesis of an association between the MMR vaccine and autism[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield#cite_note-5) or autism and gastrointestinal disease.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield#cite_note-black-2002-6) A 2004 investigation by Sunday Times (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunday_Times) reporter Brian Deer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Deer) identified undisclosed financial conflicts of interest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_of_interest)on Wakefield's part,[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield#cite_note-7) and most of his co-authors then withdrew their support (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autistic_enterocolitis#.22Retraction_of_an_interpr etation.22) for the study's interpretations.
On 28 January 2010, a five-member statutory tribunal of the GMC found three dozen charges proved, including four counts of dishonesty and 12 counts involving the abuse of developmentally challenged children.
Andrew Wakefield - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield)

Fr_Chuck raises a good point... if they can FORCE you to buy Obamacare... why shouldn't they be able to FORCE you to get vaccinated too.

yes it should be free for everyone, and vaccination is an important health care initiative that lowers care costs

yes it should be free for everyone, and vaccination is an important health care initiative that lowers care costs
Where are you going to find people willing to spend 8 years in medical school... then work for free?

No Let the government pay for it, the return on investment is obvious, it will reduce costs under Obamacare, obviously medical practitioners will be paid to administer the vaccinations should they want the work but it really needs lesser skilled medical staff, it can be done in a clinic

Or by the nurse practioner/assistant who administers the flu shots when YOU visit YOUR doctor.

These vaccinations can be administered by LPNs or RNs. I do the flu shots every year.

No Let the government pay for it, the return on investment is obvious, it will reduce costs under Obamacare, obviously medical practitioners will be paid to administer the vaccinations should they want the work but it really needs lesser skilled medical staff, it can be done in a clinic
Nurses attend medical schools as well and work hard to get their accreditations... they won't work free either.

THe Government pays? Where do you think the government get its money from?. and its certainly not everyone that will be getting something for nothing. Roughly 47% pay no federal taxes now... so they aren't contributing one iota towards the costs.

No Let the government pay for it, the return on investment is obvious, it will reduce costs under Obamacare, obviously medical practitioners will be paid to administer the vaccinations should they want the work but it really needs lesser skilled medical staff, it can be done in a clinic

How is the government going to pay for it? We are already trillions in debt. Where are we going to get the money?

I'm am RN, went to what my husband refers to as "mini medical school" as it took me 4 years versus 8.

Lesser skilled? Do you have any idea how many doctors actually ask nurses for advice?

Vermont wants a single payer system. But a study just concluded that the state needs to double it's taxes (not just income taxes ,but double it's combined tax intake of all taxes ) to pay for it . Obviously Vermont ,not being the national government doesn't have the option of passing on it's debts to their grandchildren ,or to print money . So they have to fund their social programs in real time. That is why Dem lawmaker Rep. Jim Condon has said that Vermont should shelve it's plan to adopt single payer .
Smoothy is right . This illusion that some have that if the goverment pays for it that there is no cost is absurd . You see it with Obamacare too where EVERY part of it that is "free " has support .But when it comes to pay for it ,the mandates get delayed until after elections so there is no political costs to the pols. who support it.

So you rather have an epidemic of measles because nobody can pay for the vaccination shots? Isn't that the whole point of INSURANCE for everybody? So the government DOESN'T pay as much?

Isn't that the whole point of INSURANCE for everybody? So the government DOESN'T pay as much? That's just silly. Who is going to pay for the insurance for everybody?

I am all ears for a better idea than my silly idea.

Wouldn't it be wiser to focus on the drug companies to charge lesser for these vaccinations that should be required rather than expect the government to supply them for free?

Maybe we should focus on the exorbitant fees the drug companies charge. Most of their research is funded by grants anyway.

I can go with that, and cut the costs that insurance companies, and doctors charge too.

There is no epidemic. Not even close ;and no your ideas of insurance are utopian . Vermont with it's small population of 626,146 (49th largest state by population...the only state with fewer people is Wyoming ) will have to increase spending by a min. of $2.2 billion just to institute their single payer 'plan for everybody' .

Wouldn't it be wiser to focus on the drug companies to charge lesser for these vaccinations that should be required rather than expect the government to supply them for free?

Maybe we should focus on the exorbitant fees the drug companies charge. Most of their research is funded by grants anyway.
The irony of this whole discussion is that we are debating people who normally have contempt for the drug companies. But when it comes to big Pharma studies about the possible negative effects of their vaccines ,their conclusion is the orthodoxy ,and independent studies about the harm that preservatives and heavy metals in the vaccines cause are dismissed .

There will be an epidemic if people don't get vaccinated. Evidently enough do so there is no epidemic.

I can go with that, and cut the costs that insurance companies, and doctors charge too.

Tal, do you know what a doctors med/mal insurance is per month? Do you understand why it is so high?

Aside from paying their staff, some of them (not the greedy ones) have to make a living.

Two of the OBs I work for pay upwards of $10,000 per month for med/mal insurance. As a nurse, I pay only a measly $100 per month. There is also the issue of paying back student loans, paying staff and overhead for offices.

my heart bleeds to hear that those who choose to be in a lucrative business have expenses

J, frankly I don't care what he has to pay from his profits. He makes money off my sick arse, hmmmmm so do you. But I love you both for your efforts. :)

Remember that when you pull down my pants with a needle in your hand. :D Still the cost of living is too damn high, and my earnings are to damn low.

And yet people who don't finish high school or make any effort to better themselves.. are somehow entitled to even more money to reward them for their laziness.

Sorry... Doctors work their Butts off through med school... work their butts off through residencey... they have earned the higher than average pay they get. (also applies to Nurses, etc)

Perhaps we should cut teachers pay as well... Lawyers, Judges... and all Polititians as well (hell make political positions unpaid, they make enough with insider trading as it is)... Why stop there?

Outlaw unions because all those people working for the union didn't earn the right to that money... and they are handsomely paid...we can return ot the pre-industrial hand to mouth subsistance.

you should care . If the doctors can't make a living that they think is worth the time and efforts they put into their business (yes running a doctor's office is a business ) ,and their level of education and time it took them to learn their craft ....then they will find something else to do for a living and you can get your butt poked by someone far less competent .

Yep... remember when the Barbers did all the doctoring? Bring out the leeches and get rid of the bad blood. Ah! The good ole days.

Yep the pre industrial age, now this differs in certain parts of your country from what? You appear to be in the post industrial age and it is characterised by a few high earning professions and a whole lot of low level jobs, We have been going down this road for thirty years, so here is a heads up, you will see a lot of part time jobs, industries fleeing to low cost countries and questions being asked about what you can continue to afford, I hear the word co-payment being used a lot, and industrial agreements ditching those hard won entitlements like overtime. start thinking about buying your first chinese or indian made auto, it might soon be a reality, Get used to your food coming from some place else.

J, frankly I don't care what he has to pay from his profits. He makes money off my sick arse, hmmmmm so do you. But I love you both for your efforts. :)

Remember that when you pull down my pants with a needle in your hand. :D Still the cost of living is too damn high, and my earnings are to damn low.

You don't seem to want to take into account the hard work, long hours, and buttload of student loans it took to get through medical school. Docs deserve to get paid more than the average Joe. You seem to want to punish us for our dedication to education and our professions, yet want to reward the high school drop out with free medical, more food stamps, free cell phones.

If your earnings are too low, maybe you are in the wrong profession.

Two of the OBs I work for pay upwards of $10,000 per month for med/mal insurance.
You mean $10,000 a year?

I haven't read every post, so if I repeat something someone else has already said, I'm sorry.

I'm all for vaccinations, and both of my children have had every necessary vaccinations, including the chicken pox vaccine, which isn't on the list of needed vaccines.

Having said that, my son went to school with a severely autistic child from kindergarten to grade 6. He was born a very healthy child. He knew his alphabet, was potty trained, extremely bright and perfectly healthy. Then he had his 2 year shots. That night he came down with a very high fever. His parents rushed him to the hospital. Long story short, since that day he's been severely autistic. To this day (he's now 15) he can't even say his own name, much less spell it. He wears a diaper. He will never be able to support himself or live on his own. His future isn't too bright. One day he will end up in a home, since his parents won't live forever.

There have been studies, and there is a small percentage of the population that are severely affected, like my sons friend, because of their childhood vaccines.

Now, I take the risk because I feel that the benefit far outweighs the risk. But, I'm pretty sure I'd feel very differently if I were in the shoes of a mother whose child's life was destroyed all because of a vaccine that was supposed to keep him healthy. I'd be even more upset if I was forced to give my child a vaccine if I decided that the risks were too great.

One added thing. Approved vaccines for children are free in my part of Canada. So there is no debate about paying for them. Our health care covers these vaccines. I didn't even have to pay for the chicken pox vaccine, which isn't on the list of must have vaccines for children. I also don't pay for flu shots. It's all covered by health care, which is also free.

bravely said, don't fall off that pedastal of privilege. Noone says that doctors shouldn't be well paid, but I didn't hear anything about dedication and healing the sick there, just some self centred "we are entitled".

Instead of lamenting the high school dropout you should use your professions expertise to determine the reason for these dropouts, and it will take a whole raft of professionals to do the studies and we may not like the answers, nurture will be a big part of it, so will culture but the whole teaching regime might need to change making education related to the way the world is now. Not every kid is going to college, etc and education should recognise this

Check out this preventable disease outbreak map, it's very scary, even in remote areas, outbreaks are happening. Map: Vaccine-Preventable Outbreaks | Introduction (http://www.cfr.org/interactives/GH_Vaccine_Map/#map)

Someone should send it to Jenny McCarthy. She is such a hypocrite, she slams vaccines for being toxic, yet has botox, breast implants and who knows what else. She became famous by posing for Playboy, yet grilled a girl who was paying for her education by starring in porn.

yes many celebs who take up causes are hypocrites. My favorites are the ones who are anti 2nd Amendment and star in shoot-em-up movies ;or someone like Leo Di Caprio who proclaims that he'll fly around the world in his private jet to promote environmentalism.

Check out this preventable disease outbreak map, it's very scary, even in remote areas, outbreaks are happening. Map: Vaccine-Preventable Outbreaks | Introduction (http://www.cfr.org/interactives/GH_Vaccine_Map/#map)

Someone should send it to Jenny McCarthy. She is such a hypocrite, she slams vaccines for being toxic, yet has botox, breast implants and who knows what else. She became famous by posing for Playboy, yet grilled a girl who was paying for her education by starring in porn.


yep lots of preventable diseases are being brought back from overseas, I see the huge incidence of purtussis in the US, this disease is endemic to Pakistan and Afghanistan so no marks for guessing why you have a problem, and measels has certainly emerged as a serious worldwide problem and this is being carried by migrants from Africa into Europe. The traffic of unvaccinated refugees must be stopped for health reasons, you can see where these policies are implemented the incidence is lower. Sometimes freedom means responsibility

So we have to have mandatory vaccinations because we can't control who enters our country . I rest my case.

yep you get the picture, the enemy may be hard to see, remember what virus and microbes did to the original inhabitants of your land, made the take over easier, it could happen again

bravely said, don't fall off that pedastal of privilege. Noone says that doctors shouldn't be well paid, but I didn't hear anything about dedication and healing the sick there, just some self centred "we are entitled".

Instead of lamenting the high school dropout you should use your professions expertise to determine the reason for these dropouts, and it will take a whole raft of professionals to do the studies and we may not like the answers, nurture will be a big part of it, so will culture but the whole teaching regime might need to change making education related to the way the world is now. Not every kid is going to college, etc and education should recognise this


We know the reasons these people drop out... they are lazy... don't want to work (made clear while they are still in school)... and they don't feel its cool to be educated.

smoothy it is too easy to blame the victum of the system. the problems are systemic and are wider than the school system, however you have to teach children that they have opportunity, not defeat and you have to give them attainable goals, not goals that relate to the top 5%. the kids are not stupid, they know people who have lost their jobs, who haven't worked in years and they take this on and say what about me?

it's not cool to be educated when education does nothing for you, what does a high school diploma buy you, entrance to a university, maybe.

Look at it this way, I am the first generation in my family to have a degree, and two fellowships, a high school dropout at 14, my father was a miner who never finished high school, only one of my children has a degree, the others dropped out and probably regret it. I didn't drop out because I was lazy, i was top of my class, but family dynamics meant I wanted out. From your lofty height you would look down on them, and me, but they are productive citizens even if they struggle to make ends meet in poorly paid jobs. Kids in high school are not mature enough to make decisions about their future. They should be helped, not criticised.

smoothy it is too easy to blame the victum of the system. the problems are systemic and are wider than the school system, however you have to teach children that they have opportunity, not defeat and you have to give them attainable goals, not goals that relate to the top 5%. the kids are not stupid, they know people who have lost their jobs, who haven't worked in years and they take this on and say what about me?

it's not cool to be educated when education does nothing for you, what does a high school diploma buy you, entrance to a university, maybe.

Look at it this way, I am the first generation in my family to have a degree, and two fellowships, a high school dropout at 14, my father was a miner who never finished high school, only one of my children has a degree, the others dropped out and probably regret it. I didn't drop out because I was lazy, i was top of my class, but family dynamics meant I wanted out. From your lofty height you would look down on them, and me, but they are productive citizens even if they struggle to make ends meet in poorly paid jobs. Kids in high school are not mature enough to make decisions about their future. They should be helped, not criticised.

I blame these people because I grew up with many of them... I knew them all well enough to make a well proven claim, some I knew from kindergarten through high school or until they dropped out. There is no reason to believe the rest are not exactly the same.

I can't comment on your school systems... but ours have a number of different paths and different curriculums based on if someone intends to attend college or not. We even have curriculums for certain types of job fields. Also quite a few jobs require at least a HIgh School Diploma. If for no other reason than it demonstrates you aren't as likely to quit whenever the work gets difficult.

Here in th USA you aren't legally allowed to drop out until you are at least 16. Personally I think that should be 18 or your graduate... no exceptions, but I don't write the laws.

Anyopne old enough to have or father a child.. is old enough to take criticism for their actions... without exception. IF they insist on doing absolutely stupid things... then doubley so.

And besides...these people make the decisions...then they refuse to accept the responsibility that goes with their decisions and blame everyone else but themselves.....many of them become Democrats and make a carreer of blaming others.

sterotyping doesn't cut it smoothy, we have all moved on from the days when I was at school. If we were serious we would all take a really good look at the system and what it produces. Teacher performance standards should be in place and enforced and there is a responsibility for government and employers to provide jobs, not take the least cost option.

The nonsence of the level playing field that has allowed jobs to be exported offshore needs to be reversed and industries protected, not necessarily 100% but by quotas as I said before your FTA's have backfired on you and it is time to recognise it

sterotyping doesn't cut it smoothy, we have all moved on from the days when I was at school. If we were serious we would all take a really good look at the system and what it produces. Teacher performance standards should be in place and enforced and there is a responsibility for government and employers to provide jobs, not take the least cost option.

The nonsence of the level playing field that has allowed jobs to be exported offshore needs to be reversed and industries protected, not necessarily 100% but by quotas as I said before your FTA's have backfired on you and it is time to recognise it

YOU call it sterotyping... when its not. It's a matter of fact these people all make bad choices, many of them over, and over and over... then blame everyone else for them. When nobody can legally FORCE them to do anything they don't want.

Level playing field... what a load of Marxist crap...

When you have people who are allowed to refuse to study in school... and you have those who do take advantage of a free public education... level playing field is a vision of some socialist Utopia that doesn't and never will exist.

THe government isn't responsible to find anyone jobs... thats another Socialist concept... and no private or public entity is morally or legally required to provide jobs to anyone but those best qualified to have them.

You mean $10,000 a year?No, I mean per month. The insurance covers the entire practice (2 docs), including all staff.


bravely said, don't fall off that pedastal of privilege. Noone says that doctors shouldn't be well paid, but I didn't hear anything about dedication and healing the sick there, just some self centred "we are entitled".


Pedestal of privilege? What privilege? I am the only one in my family to have a college degree. I worked full time while raising a family as well as going to school full time to achieve what I did. It's not privilege, it's called a work ethic.

Let's talk about dedication, shall we? I work 60+ hours a week to support my family, I'm dedicated to them, but I'm also dedicated to my patients or I wouldn't put in that 60+ hours a week. Docs get called at all hours of the day and night, my docs rarely sleep. One pediatrician spends an entire week at the hospital 24/7 when she is on call. No going home, no seeing her children. 24/7 in the on-call room. Why? Because she is dedicated and is there when there is a sick baby. Is that more for your liking?

Yes, after our hard work and dedication we are entitled to get what we deserve, unlike the entitled who think that they deserve a handout on my dime. Those that collect food stamps and welfare only to have another baby to get more food stamps and a bigger welfare check. Where is that money coming from?


Instead of lamenting the high school dropout you should use your professions expertise to determine the reason for these dropouts,

That's another thread in and of itself.

Back to the thread at hand though...

Yes, vaccinations should be mandatory, but we cannot force people to take a vaccination, again, that would be assault. No, I don't agree with people like Jenny McCarthy, and her stand on this chaps my a$$, but I can't run at her children and stab them with a needle, now can I?

I work 60+ hours a week to support my family
Hmmm... that seems excessive.

Here is something I read in this thread:

If your earnings are too low, maybe you are in the wrong profession.

Hmmm... that seems excessive.

You do what you have to do to make a living in this economy. And with ObamaCare looming, there are many cuts made to the point that hospitals are overcrowded and short staffed. I do what I have to do to support my family and take care of my patients.

What are you expecting? A copy of my clocking at work? Put it to you this way, out of the last 8 days I worked 7, have tonight and tomorrow off, then back to work it is.



Not excessive... Dedicated.

Maybe you are in the wrong profession.

Thank you, but I'm in the right profession. I wouldn't change it for the world.

I actually find it comical that you are bashing the only person on the site who has first hand knowledge into what is going on in this healthcare crisis. I don't read it on the internet, or hear it in the news. I actually experience it on a day-to-day basis, I don't only work OB, but ER and CCU as well. But you all don't want to hear that, do you? You would rather stay safe in your own personal political environments than to open your minds to what is REALLY going on from someone who is behind the scenes and knows what is happening on a first hand basis.

I'm not speaking republican or democrat, I am trying to stand up as your future health care provider.

Excessive, yes, but you do what you have to do to make a living in this economy. And with ObamaCare looming, there are many cuts made to the point that hospitals are overcrowded and short staffed. I do what I have to do to support my family and take care of my patients.

What are you expecting? A copy of my clocking at work? Put it to you this way, out of the last 8 days I worked 7, have tonight and tomorrow off, then back to work it is.

Obama care has rules but I can only point out that your state is one of many facing these issues that burden many hospitals, lack of paying for poor sick people. Hospitals are closing under this burden while state legislatures are resisting the resources they are entitled to. That does include all those vaccinations you do everyday, including the flu shots.

There are many that cannot pay to be healthy or receive treatments, and the money comes from somewhere. No need to use your own work ethnic to beat others over the head though. This whole conversation on who deserves what, and who is entitled to what solves nothing.

you are bashing the only person on the siteI wasn't. I was testing you're the advice you gave in an earlier post.
I have a lot of nurse friends. We don't have the same issues here of course.

Back tracking.

We don't have the same issues here of course.

Then you shouldn't be participating in this exchange.

I actually find it comical that you are bashing the only person on the site who has first hand knowledge into what is going on in this healthcare crisis. I don't read it on the internet, or hear it in the news. I actually experience it on a day-to-day basis, I don't only work OB, but ER and CCU as well. But you all don't want to hear that, do you? You would rather stay safe in your own personal political environments than to open your minds to what is REALLY going on from someone who is behind the scenes and knows what is happening on a first hand basis.

I'm not speaking republican or democrat, I am trying to stand up as your future health care provider.

NK just likes ankle biting

Obama care has rules but I can only point out that your state is one of many facing these issues that burden many hospitals, lack of paying for poor sick people. Hospitals are closing under this burden while state legislatures are resisting the resources they are entitled to. That does include all those vaccinations you do everyday, including the flu shots.

There are many that cannot pay to be healthy or receive treatments, and the money comes from somewhere. No need to use your own work ethnic to beat others over the head though. This whole conversation on who deserves what, and who is entitled to what solves nothing.

the emperor has shown the so called rules you speak of are pliable at the emperor'sdiscretion.

The real problem is there are not enough health care providers. Anywhere.

Illinois is doing okay during the "healthcare crisis." I've been at the receiving end of it, having spent Christmas in the hospital (including six hours in the ER) and was in a health care rehab until Feb. 12. The hospital was well staffed with three or four patients per CNA/nurse team. At the rehab facility, each CNA/nurse team had as many as ten patients, but we patients were more independent and didn't need constant medical oversight. And at rehab, I spent the morning in PT and wanted to spend afternoons (with the facility's permission) reorganizing their library, but I couldn't because of job interviews and employee evaluations going on in there. I'm at home now, and my visiting nurse has been assigned a new hire (RN) who accompanies her on each home visit to see how things are done.

My niece-in-law in the Quad Cities is an RN and is working as a visiting nurse. Her older sister just finished her CNA training and quickly got a job in a QC hospital.

Then you shouldn't be participating in this exchange.

Why? This particular exchange or the whole thread. The OP is Canadian with what he believes to be Canadian issues. That is how this whole discussion started. I mentioned manadatory vaccinations was not in the Canadian constitution; then it turned over to US health issues and vaccinations.

I am not a nurse but a front line Personal Support worker and an RNA to broaden my scope of practice in my job; every second weekend I work 50 hours almost straight (that is mandatory for me and I am NOT well paid) and see a lot of very sick children in the hospital corridors because, I am thinking, parents just don't know that they should have their children vaccinated. As Alty said under our healthcare system we don't have to pay for any vaccinations, so there is no excuse for not having it done.

The real problem is there are not enough health care providers. Anywhere.And thanks to Obama... even fewer have any desire to be.

Thanks to state legislatures and more hospital closings because of rising costs not being mitigated through revenue resources is more accurate.

Thanks to state legislatures and more hospital closings because of rising costs not being mitigated through revenue resources is more accurate.

Funny how they weren't leaving in droves until Obamacare got rammed down everyone's throats.

Factually the health care industry is growing

High Growth Industry Profile - Health Care (http://www.doleta.gov/BRG/Indprof/Healthcare_profile.cfm)

Maybe not fast enough, but growing.

Factually the health care industry is growing

High Growth Industry Profile - Health Care (http://www.doleta.gov/BRG/Indprof/Healthcare_profile.cfm)

Maybe not fast enough, but growing.

I think the comment regarding health care providers becoming fewer was more to do with physicians. Whereas the projected increase in the article has to do with positions requiring less training, such as PAs, home health aids, PTs, etc. This would be expected if the number of physicians were to decrease.

I'm sorry to backtrack a little, but J mentioned that two OB's she knows pay $10,000 a month in malpractice insurance. I found that shocking.

Not that I didn't believe you J, but I did remember something Sneezy (the only American doctor I know) told me a while back. So I emailed him to confirm if I remembered what he had told me, correctly. I asked if 1. The insurance costs were that high, and 2. If the doctors paid that premium out of pocket.

His reply, verbatim "Yes, OBs do pay close to $100,000 in insurance. But no, you don't pay it out of pocket. Your hospital usually pays for it. Granted, if you're private practice, then yes, you pay for it on your own, but it's rare you become private practice. Chances are you join a private practice group in which they pay for it (but you also pay to join a private practice group)"

He's actually working OB/GYN right now. He's hating it. Only 2 weeks left and he moves on to psychiatry. He can't wait.

Instead of lamenting the high school dropout you should use your professions expertise to determine the reason for these dropouts, and it will take a whole raft of professionals to do the studies and we may not like the answers, nurture will be a big part of it, so will culture but the whole teaching regime might need to change making education related to the way the world is now. Not every kid is going to college, etc and education should recognise this

Paraclete,

The need for variations in education is recognized more and more. Many districts have magnet schools, often as part of a public school, which will have a focus on specific areas of training, such as medicine, electronics, robotics, the arts, engineering, etc..

Dropouts happen for a wide variety of reasons, and much will depend on the location and family culture as well. Some will dropout to help families by working, which is sometimes expected as the norm. Others will drop out due to lack of interest, often going back to school at a later time to earn a GED certificate (similar to a high school diploma). Some do not meet the graduation requirements due to poor grades, lack of attendance, etc. and decide not to complete what is necessary. Some will drop out and go to a technical school that may offer specific training of interest... from culinary arts to truck driving and everything in between. Some simply don't care, refuse to go to school, and there is nothing a parent can do, and they may not care themselves.

Graduation requirements will also vary among states... with some being more rigorous than others, and resulting in some students not meeting those requirements. How graduation rates are determined may vary as well with regard as to just what constitutes a graduate.

I think the comment regarding health care providers becoming fewer was more to do with physicians. Whereas the projected increase in the article has to do with positions requiring less training, such as PAs, home health aids, PTs, etc. This would be expected if the number of physicians were to decrease.

So how do we get more doctors?

Saw this, found it funny:

howdovaccinescauseautism.com


(http://www.howdovaccinescauseautism.com/)

I'm sorry to backtrack a little, but J mentioned that two OB's she knows pay $10,000 a month in malpractice insurance. I found that shocking. Not that I didn't believe you J, but I did remember something Sneezy (the only American doctor I know) told me a while back. So I emailed him to confirm if I remembered what he had told me, correctly. I asked if 1. The insurance costs were that high, and 2. If the doctors paid that premium out of pocket. His reply, verbatim "Yes, OBs do pay close to $100,000 in insurance. But no, you don't pay it out of pocket. Your hospital usually pays for it. Granted, if you're private practice, then yes, you pay for it on your own, but it's rare you become private practice. Chances are you join a private practice group in which they pay for it (but you also pay to join a private practice group)" He's actually working OB/GYN right now. He's hating it. Only 2 weeks left and he moves on to psychiatry. He can't wait. J_9 is correct... thats what is called malpractice insurance... if someone tries to sue the practice or doctor if everything doesn't go 100% perfect. In some countries your ability to sue might be severely limited in all but the most serious cases. Here they can sue because they think the surgical scar is too big.

J_9 is correct... thats what is called malpractice insurance... if someone tries to sue the practice or doctor if everything doesn't go 100% perfect. In some countries your ability to sue might be severely limited in all but the most serious cases. Here they can sue because they think the surgical scar is too big.

I'm well aware of that Smoothy. I do know what malpractice insurance is, and what it's for. If you read my post again you'll see that I wasn't disputing that malpractice insurance is purchased, or the cost of it. I'm saying that the majority of doctors don't pay for it out of pocket. Their employers pay for it.

J_9 could clear that up (she knows that better than anyone here).. but I think the individual doctors actually do pay their own... because their individual rates like auto insurance depends on their claim history. meaning 4 doctors at the same practice might pay 4 different rates. THere are doctors that had to close their practice because a couple accidents put their insurance costs past what they could pay.

J_9 could clear that up (she knows that better than anyone here).. but I think the individual doctors actually do pay their own... because their individual rates like auto insurance depends on their claim history. meaning 4 doctors at the same practice might pay 4 different rates. THere are doctors that had to close their practice because a couple accidents put their insurance costs past what they could pay.

I'm only going by what Sneezy told me, and he is a doctor in the US. He used to be a member of this site, until med school, when he became way to busy to participate here.

I will post what he told me again. Just in case you missed it.


Yes, OBs do pay close to $100,000 in insurance. But no, you don't pay it out of pocket. Your hospital usually pays for it. Granted, if you're private practice, then yes, you pay for it on your own, but it's rare you become private practice. Chances are you join a private practice group in which they pay for it (but you also pay to join a private practice group).

So according to what he wrote, the only time you would pay your own insurance is if you were in private practice, which is rare. Even then, you can join a private practice group which would pay the insurance rates, but then you'd be paying to join a private practice group.

Send ISNEEZYFUNNY my best regards and I am so happy for the lad. :D He was in college just out of high school when he was here. Where does the time go?

Send ISNEEZYFUNNY my best regards and I am so happy for the lad. :D He was in college just out of high school when he was here. Where does the time go?

It flies by way too fast. I still remember him getting ready to take the MCATS, and how hard he studied for them. Now he's working in a hospital, very long hours, and loving every minute of it, well, except the rotation he's on now. He's not fond of the OB/GYN department. Apparently babies aren't his thing. ;)

He's my go to guy for anything medical. That kid amazes me. He's one smart cookie. He's an amazing doctor, and his career is only beginning. I know he's going to go on to do great things.

I'll definitely give him your best regards.

So according to what he wrote, the only time you would pay your own insurance is if you were in private practice, which is rare. Even then, you can join a private practice group which would pay the insurance rates, but then you'd be paying to join a private practice group. Please don't take this as being argumenative...as its not intended to be in any way...I'm just mentioning personal experience. Everywhere I've lived... most doctors in the region are in private practice... (even practices that might have multiple doctors are still private) Those are who are going to be your primary care physicians. Same with many specialists which might have privileges in the hospitals... but their offices are not part of the hospital and most often in their own leased space. More and more of the outpatient stuff is taken care of outside of actual hospitals... such as minor surgeries, things like colonoscopies etc. Some of them are close to major regional hospitals... in one case... my Gastroenterologists office and outpatient office (independent) where most of his procedures are done is only 1/4 mile (1/2 Kilometer) from a major Regional Hosital in this area. In areas like this and many others they might cluster in buildings intended for medical offices... where they are all unaffiliated with each other except sharing a common landlord. Can't say if that's common in Canada or not... but I know its not in Italy. Which is the other country I'm most familiar with (going back to 1988). Can't say I personally know any doctors who work exclusively in Hospitals (in the USA). Though I do know a few nurses that do, or at least did at one time. Two aunts were registered nurses, and my future sister-in-law is. I do know a few nurses and Doctors in Italy. But they tend to do things differntly there....not what I would call better in many ways. But in a few I'd say yes. Had a case with my late father-in-law that if it happened in the USA...would clearly be a malpractice case....but in Italy they were shielded from any legal or civil action. I also know a few others there with people I knew well.

Not that I didn't believe you J, but I did remember something Sneezy (the only American doctor I know) told me a while back. So I emailed him to confirm if I remembered what he had told me, correctly. I asked if 1. The insurance costs were that high, and 2. If the doctors paid that premium out of pocket.

His reply, verbatim "Yes, OBs do pay close to $100,000 in insurance. But no, you don't pay it out of pocket. Your hospital usually pays for it. Granted, if you're private practice, then yes, you pay for it on your own, but it's rare you become private practice. Chances are you join a private practice group in which they pay for it (but you also pay to join a private practice group)"


The OB I speak of is private practice, not employed by the hospital. He has privileges at our hospital, but that is as far as his employment with the hospital goes. He didn't pay to join the private practice group, he created it and has one other doctor practicing under him who does not have privileges at the hospital.

I hope that clears it up.

There are many private doctors that are employed by a hospital and actually lease space as a satellite of the hospital, on hospital owned land and buildings. I provided a link before but will dig it up again.

So according to what he wrote, the only time you would pay your own insurance is if you were in private practice, which is rare. And that may very well be the case where Sneezy lives.

I am in no way trying to argue with you Alty, so please don't take it that way.

Locations are specific when dealing with medicine. Bigger inner city hospitals do employ medical practitioners, while smaller cities and more rural areas have a higher rate of private practice doctors.

Private practice doctors tend to be the primary care practitioners, while the MDs employed by the hospitals are the doctors that patients are assigned to should they have to be admitted to a facility, for the most part.

Where I live private practice and hospital employed are 50/50. I can go to my primary care doctor, but he does not practice in a hospital, or for a hospital. If I were to have to be admitted, I would be admitted under a hospitalist. So my primary care pays his own med/mal insurance. Now, if Little J went to his doctor and had to be admitted, he would be admitted under his pediatrician because she is part of our hospital's group, so the hospital pays her med/mal insurance.


There are many private doctors that are employed by a hospital and actually lease space as a satellite of the hospital, on hospital owned land and buildings. I provided a link before but will dig it up again.

And such is the case with many of the doctors I work with. Our pediatricians operate that way. They are on contract with the hospital.

To go back to the original question...

I do think that vaccinations should be mandatory. The question is... How do you force people to do that?

What about religious beliefs. Jehovah's Witness comes to mind with blood and blood products. They refuse blood and blood products based on their religious beliefs. What if their child was dying and needed a transfusion? We can't give it if they refuse it. The hardest part is watching the child die because the parents refuse the treatment.

We are all intelligent adults. We all know what is right, vaccinations are right. They are right not only for the health of our children, but for the health of every person that child comes in contact with. One of they sayings we have in the hospital is "you can't fix stupid."


their individual rates like auto insurance (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/#) depends on their claim history.



It also depends on their specialty. OB is the highest litigious practice in medicine with pediatrics falling closely behind. Because of the litigious nature of these practices, their premiums are higher.

Now, just because the hospital pays for your insurance doesn't mean you are adequately insured. Should there be a suit, and the doctor found liable, but the hospital was released, the hospital is no longer required to represent you. As a doctor or a nurse, it is also wise to carry your own insurance if this scenario were to play out.

As a nurse employed by the hospital, they cover my med/mal insurance. However, if I were found to actually be negligent, their insurance would cease to cover me. Thus, I carry my own policy as well.