I am a painting contractor. I was painting a kitchen for some wealthy people. They claimed I broke a light fixture valued at $450. The light had a horseshoe shaped crack that looked like a heat crack. The homeowner insisted that I broke the light. I know I did not. However, I felt that the final payment would be withheld if I didn't submit it to my ins, so I submitted the claim.

Days later, I got into a dispute with the customer and walked off the job without finishing. When I got the call from the ins adjuster, I made it clear, that I did not break the light so she denied the claim.

Months later, (this week), I got a notice that I am being sued for breaking the light.

Question: The fact that I submitted a claim to the ins co, does that now make me liable for damages, even though I did not break the light? Will a judge rule against me or do the Plaintiff's have to prove that I broke the light?

BTW - they did not see me break the light and there is no proof that I broke the light.

Thanks~

They will use the fact that you agreed to submit it to your insurer as an admission. They will say that you withdrew the claim only after you got into a dispute with them.

They stand a good chance of winning.

Here is a photo of the light. This is after I tried to take the bulb out. The glass popped out. To me, it looks like a heat break.

I filed a counter lawsuit.

On what grounds?

I removed name of parties.


Complaint

On September 10, 2013, company commenced an interior painting project at the home of customer of ***, NJ. As several working days progressed, customer brought to the Plaintiff’s attention, a crack she had found in one of the kitchen light fixtures.
Shortly thereafter, Defendants wrongfully accused Plaintiff, of breaking said kitchen light fixture (which was possibly caused by a manufacturer defect and/ or an improper wattage bulb), valued at $445.00.
Defendants then unjustifiably held company financially liable for damages to said light fixture, forcing company to terminate contractual agreements with Defendants and vacate their property.
Defendants unlawfully confiscated equipment owned by *** Painting, and Plaintiff required a police escort back to the customers residents, to have said equipment returned.
As a result, Plaintiff suffered loss of monies due to non-refundable paint purchased, loss of earned and future income.
Plaintiff worked (5) five consecutive business days at the home of the Defendants, successfully completing a substantial portion of a (7) seven day painting project, furnishing labor, all material, supplies and paints.

Wherefore, Plaintiff demands judgment against Defendants for the sum of;
$331.88 for all completed work, paints and supplies, with the addition of,
$543.12 for gas / mileage, and all loss of time and income caused by the Defendants, totaling the remaining balance of the contract.

Hello S:

File a counterclaim for the paint job you didn't get paid for.

excon

They will use the fact that you agreed to submit it to your insurer as an admission. They will say that you withdrew the claim only after you got into a dispute with them.

They stand a good chance of winning.

I don't know. If the customer is making noises to the effect that the contractor did something negligent, it is perfectly reasonable to notify one's insurance carrier, in effect saying "Be aware that they think I am liable." In fact that's what you are supposed to do.

Excon, it appears that post #5 contains the quoted counter-claim (although it is entitled "Complaint").

They also gave me a bad review on Angies List, and oddly, the review was removed. The review was done Oct 29, 2013 Take note, she never mentioned the light in the review at that time. Here is a screen Capture from November.

I don't know either. I do think your counter suit has merit, because it contains provable items. I assume you have a police report and pictures of the completed work.

I stand on what I said initially, but a lot will depend on what you told your insurance carrier initially as AK said. I'm not an expert on electricity, so I'm going to ask some of our electrical experts to take a look at this. But the fact that only the inner cover was damaged seems to work in your favor.

He indicated he was trying to remove the bulb, and the picture indicates breakage (not a crack) consistent with a hand inserted into the globe, and possibly a break while trying to turn the bulb.
It is quite possible that a new globe could be purchased if this is really a $450 lighting fixture, mitigating the damage greatly.
I would not have attempted to remove the fixture for painting certainy. It could have been covered temporarily if splatter was a concern and any painter worth his salt could trim (using painter's tape if felt necessary) around the ceiling cover plate without getting paint on the cover plate, and it could easily be cleaned off the plate even with a mistake.
There are some claims that cfl bulbs produce 75% less heat, so if you are going to assert that the damage was caused by heat from that cfl bulb, be prepared to prove that the bulb was far in excess of the manufacturer's recommendation.

He indicated he was trying to remove the bulb,

I don't see where that was indicated.

I also noticed the cfl bulb, which is supposed to generate less heat from the lighting element. But the base does generate heat.

Unless they previously had a very high wattage incandescent lamp in there for a long time I seriously doubt it is heat damage. At the same time I have seen breaks like that for no reason at all.
Honestly it is anyone's guess how it broke. If I had to guess I'd say it was the customer trying to get a freebie. Especially considering they are actually suing you over such a minor issue.

He indicated he was trying to remove the bulb, and the picture indicates breakage (not a crack) consistent with a hand inserted into the globe, and possibly a break while trying to turn the bulb.
It is quite possible that a new globe could be purchased if this is really a $450 lighting fixture, mitigating the damage greatly.
I would not have attempted to remove the fixture for painting certainy. It could have been covered temporarily if splatter was a concern and any painter worth his salt could trim (using painter's tape if felt necessary) around the ceiling cover plate without getting paint on the cover plate, and it could easily be cleaned off the plate even with a mistake.
There are some claims that cfl bulbs produce 75% less heat, so if you are going to assert that the damage was caused by heat from that cfl bulb, be prepared to prove that the bulb was far in excess of the manufacturer's recommendation.


I didn't take the light down, I painted around the top. 33 years as a painter (it's cake). I only tried to remove the bulb after the fact. I wanted to see if the bulb was the wrong wattage, and if that was the explanation for the crack.

The globe was very hot, I felt it.

Why do I need to prove that I didn't break it? Don't they have to prove that I did?

In small claims court things are looser. Since neither of you have definitive proof either way, other factors will be used to determine who wins.

In small claims court things are looser. Since neither of you have definitive proof either way, other factors will be used to determine who wins.

I have been a tradesmen for 33 years. When I look at how the light cracked, common sense tells me it was heat. A break due to banging into it - would be jagged.

Again, why do I need to prove I didn't break it? The home owner didn't see me break it.

And, again, you were working around the light, it broke. The "judge" will weigh all the evidence and rule based on that. This is not a criminal case where the doctrine of "innocent until proven guilty" applies. It's a civil case where the doctrine of "beyond a reasonable doubt" does not apply. So the evidence is presented and reviewed. The judge rules based on the preponderance of evidence, some of which could be circumstantial. There does not have to absolute proof one way or the other.

I didn't take the light down, I painted around the top. 33 years as a painter (it's cake). I only tried to remove the bulb after the fact. I wanted to see if the bulb was the wrong wattage, and if that was the explanation for the crack.

The globe was very hot, I felt it.

Why do I need to prove that I didn't break it? Don't they have to prove that I did?

They have to prove that it is more likely than not that you broke it.

You had no business touching it. If you had left it alone you would have a better case telling the judge that you had nothing to do with it.

Your story is remniscent of the murder film cliche:

suspect finds body with a knife next to it.
Suspect picks up knife.
Someone comes in room and sees suspect holding knife.
Suspect is assumed to be the murderer.


Next time, leave murder weapons and broken light fixtures untouched.

Scott,
Post #3: "Here is a photo of the light. This is after I tried to take the bulb out. The glass popped out. To me, it looks like a heat break. "

Post #13: " I only tried to remove the bulb after the fact. I wanted to see if the bulb was the wrong wattage, and if that was the explanation for the crack."

Superfedz,
You didn't need to touch the light fixture. You saw that the globe was cracked, so you decided to investigate the cause of the crack. and the cracked portion fell out when you stuck your hand up through the globe.
Maybe the judge will believe that these wealthy folks set all this up with the intent of getting a new light fixture out of the painters via a lawsuit. Good Luck.

Scott,
Post #3: "Here is a photo of the light. This is after I tried to take the bulb out. The glass popped out. To me, it looks like a heat break. "

Post #13: " I only tried to remove the bulb after the fact. I wanted to see if the bulb was the wrong wattage, and if that was the explanation for the crack."

Superfedz,
You didn't need to touch the light fixture. You saw that the globe was cracked, so you decided to investigate the cause of the crack. and the cracked portion fell out when you stuck your hand up through the globe.
Maybe the judge will believe that these wealthy folks set all this up with the intent of getting a new light fixture out of the painters via a lawsuit. Good Luck.

You need more info...

Sept 13th 11am wife discovers crack, Sept 13th 7pm, husband calls me via phone, and is being accusatory, Monday the 16th, I go to their house to work, at 9am I call my ins co. claim is submitted, I was told that adjuster will call me in a few days to ask questions. So at this point, I figure, I want to see if the bulb is the proper wattage (home owner is not at home, so I try to get the bulb out, glass pops out. I work till the end of the day and say bye to the women of the house. Everything was fine...
Next day her and I get into confrontation, I am still disturbed by this whole matter, I tell her, "look, I am not finishing this job, lets call it even". I pack up and leave... 3 months later, I am being sued...

You need more info...
...

No, the further information you gave doesn't add anything of substance.

The wife discovered the crack. You touched the light in an effort to discover the cause of the breakage. Again, it was none of your business. The only legitimate reason to touch it would have been to prove that whatever you may have done was not your fault. And that should been have done by your adjuster, not you.

No, the further information you gave doesn't add anything of substance.

The wife discovered the crack. You touched the light in an effort to discover the cause of the breakage. Again, it was none of your business. The only legitimate reason to touch it would have been to prove that whatever you may have done was not your fault. And that should been have done by your adjuster, not you.

If the wrong wattage bulb was in the fixture, I would have been able to proof that "that" was the cause on the damage.

The adjuster would not take the time to examine the light, they would just pay the customer if they felt I was negligent. When the adjuster called me, I made it clear that I did not break it and so she denied the claim.

I have a sue clause in my policy. She told me, If they sue me, the ins co will not fight it, they will just pay the people. I don't want my ins to pay because, I know I didn't break it...

From post 5: "forcing company to terminate contractual agreements with Defendants and vacate their property."

Did the contract provide for termination in the event of a dispute?
What was the status/progress of the painting project at the time that you walked off?
Did the homeowner agree to cancellation of the contract?
If your insurer has indicated that they will pay the homeowner's claim- take that deal and don't look back.

If the wrong wattage bulb was in the fixture, I would have been able to proof that "that" was the cause on the damage.
.

Not necessarily. But more importantly, by touching the fixture, you exacerbated the problem. Your problem is you think your cause is just and it very well may be. But the law is not always just. Having a just cause does not mean you will win in a court of law. What counts in court is evidence and the court reaches a conclusion based on where the evidence leads. You have several people here, with knowledge and experience with the law who are telling you your case is not strong. That you have done things that weaken your case. I won't predict how this will go, but it could go either way.

And based on what you have said, if you lose the cost will come out of your pocket not your insurer once this goes to court.

Not necessarily. But more importantly, by touching the fixture, you exacerbated the problem. Your problem is you think your cause is just and it very well may be. But the law is not always just. Having a just cause does not mean you will win in a court of law. What counts in court is evidence and the court reaches a conclusion based on where the evidence leads. You have several people here, with knowledge and experience with the law who are telling you your case is not strong. That you have done things that weaken your case. I won't predict how this will go, but it could go either way.

And based on what you have said, if you lose the cost will come out of your pocket not your insurer once this goes to court.

Thanks for your replies.

No one has commented on this fact, except the electrician. However I don't agree with him. An electrician is not a glass expert. I don't think it is possible for the light to have cracked in such a clean break by an accident. Examine the photo again. I believe it was a heat crack or manufacturer defect.

I also have talked to friends and showed the photo. After they have seen the pic, they all have stated, "you did not break that light"!

Also, they are suing for money back on the job as well. They are valuing my 5 days of work at their home, for only $250 (That's not even minimum wage). I normally charge a min. $250 per day, not per week... Just another example of how unfair they are.

Superfedz,

It is unclear to me why you first touched the light fixture.
You were painting or getting ready to paint, but at some point you decided, I'm going to stop what I am doing, and get up there and take the bulb out of that light?
Or did the homeowner see a crack and claim that you had bumped the light with a ladder or something? Then, you decided that the crack was caused by heat, and you wanted to prove that it was caused by a bulb of improper wattage, and in the course of removing the bulb, the piece broke out of the globe?

Just another example of how unfair they are.

But, again, this is not about fairness, this is about the law.

And I would disagree that an electrician would not be familiar with the issues of the glass used in lighting fixtures. And it does not matter what your friends say. Are they experts in lighting fixtures? Do you really expect them to tell you you were at fault? Unless, someone hires a glass or electrical fixture expert to physically examine the globe around the bulb, there is NO expert testimony as to the cause of the break. And the cost of hiring such an expert is probably prohibitive.

I tend to agree with you, that the nature of the break, would indicate a previous fault in the glass. And maybe that fault was an imperfection in the manufacture, but until it was touched, it didn't manifest itself. I don't know and neither do you. Its all speculation that a judge will weigh to make a decision.

The bottom line here is that there is no direct evidence either way. All the evidence is circumstantial. The judge will rule based on his perceptions. So, again, it could go either way.


Or did the homeowner see a crack and claim that you had bumped the light with a ladder or something? Then, you decided that the crack was caused by heat, and you wanted to prove that it was caused by a bulb of improper wattage, and in the course of removing the bulb, the piece broke out of the globe?

That's the way I understood it.

Superfedz,

It is unclear to me why you first touched the light fixture.
You were painting or getting ready to paint, but at some point you decided, I'm going to stop what I am doing, and get up there and take the bulb out of that light?
Or did the homeowner see a crack and claim that you had bumped the light with a ladder or something? Then, you decided that the crack was caused by heat, and you wanted to prove that it was caused by a bulb of improper wattage, and in the course of removing the bulb, the piece broke out of the globe?

I painted the ceiling on Thurs Sept 12th, I placed a small piece of .31 mil plastic on it, and I never turned the light on. End of the day I removed the plastic and ceiling was done. Next day I started painting the kitchen walls, at around 11am, the homeowner (wife) stated, "oh, there is a crack in one of the lights". I turned around and said, sorry to hear that. At the end of the day, Friday, I said goodbye to the women of the house. Later that night, The husband called me flipping and being accusatory. After 30 seconds of listening to him rant, I said, "hold on, I did not break your light"! I explained my theory of a bulb being too powerful and he said those bulbs don't get hot.

I continued to deny and he continued to accuse.

Because I wanted to be paid in full when the work was completed, I agreed to contacted my ins. co. But I was pissed.

So after a 2 day weekend, I went back to their home to work in a different room. The homeowner went out for a while and I was determine to see if the bulb was the proper wattage and that is when the glass popped out. It was several days later.

This was the homeowners reasoning for the lights breakage. He stated, "you were the only one in the house the day the light broke, so you did it"!

But, again, this is not about fairness, this is about the law.

And I would disagree that an electrician would not be familiar with the issues of the glass used in lighting fixtures. And it does not matter what your friends say. Are they experts in lighting fixtures? Do you really expect them to tell you you were at fault? Unless, someone hires a glass or electrical fixture expert to physically examine the globe around the bulb, there is NO expert testimony as to the cause of the break. And the cost of hiring such an expert is probably prohibitive.


I spoke to a friend who is an electrician, and he said, "CFL bulbs don't get hot", "someone broke that". I touched the globe myself, believe me, it was very hot, so he was wrong.

Yes, my 73 y/o stepfather is brutally honest. And I have many friends in the trades. As a matter of fact, this light fixture was the topic at a contractor forum.

What does a person that sells lights, or an electrician that installs them know about glass breakage by impact or heat or defect? I would think you would need a physics major. Even then, his/her opinion would only be an opinion, not a fact.

I am 51 y/o and believe me, throughout the years, I have broken lamps, bulbs, glass by impact etc, and I have never seen a break like this one... It's either a jagged crack or it shatters.

I'm not arguing with you. I'm trying to explain to you what will happen in court.

Scott, I know how judges are. If one got into an argument with his wife the night before court - forget it! If you say something to offend him - forget it.

Years ago, a judge asked me a question and my answer was, "that's irrelevant". Well, that didn't go over too well! :o)

Did the homeowner have any theory on how you managed to damage a globe inside a glass enclosure? Like (pretty absurd suggestion I know), you had an extension handle on a roller and in the course of loading more paint on the roller, you raised up the handle and it went inside the opening of the bottom of the fixture and hit the globe inside the glass?
Now, they are trying to essentially short you $ 1,000 for your work too? Wasn't the cost of the work covered in the contract? So, even if the insurance takes care of the light, you could still lose $1,000.
Then maybe the worst case is (if you go to court), you lose $1,500 or so, if you lose on the light and the reduction in pay. Why not let the insurance pay for the light and if your contract is solid, win on the pay issue and you are out nothing?
You have a bigger problem than the light if they are trying to dock you $ 1,000. Get the light issue out of the equation by letting the insurance cover it (and just get over it). Concentrate on getting proper payment for your work.

Did the homeowner have any theory on how you managed to damage a globe inside a glass enclosure? Like (pretty absurd suggestion I know), you had an extension handle on a roller and in the course of loading more paint on the roller, you raised up the handle and it went inside the opening of the bottom of the fixture and hit the globe inside the glass?

His exact words were, "you were the only one in the house the day the light broke"!
Oddly, the day and time the light broke is unknown!!

With all the time and effort going on, I would just try to find a replacement globe at a good lamp store and be done with it. Has to be less than the time spent for a court, filing papers etc.

With all the time and effort going on, I would just try to find a replacement globe at a good lamp store and be done with it. Has to be less than the time spent for a court, filing papers etc.

When someone sues, it's a matter of principle... This is a wealthy doctor suing me.
Apparently he believes I broke the light. It's like any other fight, people will fight for their cause and so will I!

Principle is nice but is it worth the cost of losing?

Principle is nice but is it worth the cost of losing?

I did not break the light so the answer is yes!

Ask that same question to the US military.

I did not break the light so the answer is yes!

Ask that same question to the US military.

Ok so answer again when you are forced to pay $450.

And, if you don't think the US Military doesn't take into account the cost of losing, you are sadly mistaken.

[/QUOTI can think of three reasons for the inner globe to crack.
First, stuff just happens.
Second, heat.
Third vibration.

I would go to court, deny responsibility and keep my mouth shut. It is the duty of the plaintiff to prove his case. To do that he must testify. If this were in Virginia small claims there would be no lawyers.
[QUOTE] customer brought to the Plaintiff’s attention, a crack she had found in one of the kitchen light fixtures.
To me that would appear to eliminate you, the painter. Pretty hard to break the inner globe without damaging the outer globe.
I would question the plaintiff as to what caused the plaintiff to take note of crack at this particular time. A crack line in the inner globe would not be that noticeable. Also ask if the light fixture had been inspected before the painting started.
I would question what kind and wattage bulbs have been used in the fixture in the past. Because it has a compact fluorescent bulb in it now does not mean that incandescent bulbs have not been used in the past. After establishing the kind and size bulbs that have been used in the past, I would ask what the maximum wattage bulb is specified for use in the fixture. All light fixtures have that specification. A good possibility that plaintiff won't know that, and no mater what size bulb has been used, it is possible that it was of too high wattage.

I would question as to what is above the kitchen. Is the room above a kids bedroom, where kids have been playing basketball, or perhaps jumping off bunk beds.

You never know what the judge will say but I don't think "because you were the only person there" will prove the plaintiffs case. You only have to create doubt.

I would ask for compensation for work done, materials purchased. Forget the Angie's list and money not earned.

Ask questions, state nothing, as I'm sure your attorney has advised. You have nothing to loose except time.E]

Ok so answer again when you are forced to pay $450.

Scott, many lawsuits are won by people giving in, and throwing the Plaintiff a bone. I am not a quitter, I am a fighter and I am not going to lay down and die for these people. If these people want it badly enough, they are going to have to spend a day in court and run the same risk of losing.

Here is another tid bit of info, the Plaintiff is a doctor, and questions is, is he willing to lose time at work making the big bucks? I doubt it! I wouldn't be surprised if they have the case dismissed. Remember, I filed a counter lawsuit so he has to appear in court. He most likely won't expect the counter lawsuit. And it was mailed to the courts last week so he probably didn't get the notice yet.

FYI - the courts can't force one to pay a small claims judgement.

Pretty hard to break the inner globe without damaging the outer globe.

Yes, I agree. That’s what I told the customer and he stated, “the inner glass is more fragile than the outer“.


I would question what kind and wattage bulbs have been used in the fixture in the past.

I mentioned the wattage to the customer and he said, “the light was shipped with the bulbs in them and they are the proper wattage, and cfl bulbs don't get hot”. I touched the globe, it got very hot.

I found the light online.
Tech Lighting 700TDFIRGP Fire Grande LineVoltage Monopoint Mini Pendant (http://www.lightinguniverse.com/mini-pendants/tech-lighting-700tdfirgp-fire-grande-linevoltage-monopoint-mini-pendant_g697118.html?isku=6264522&linkloc=cataLogProductItemsImage)

Third vibration.

Hey hkstroud, they had a handicap son and a built in elevator in their home. Do you think the vibration from the elevator may have caused it?

Hey hkstroud, they had a handicap son and a built in elevator in their home. Do you think the vibration from the elevator may have caused it?

Its possible but you aren't going to prove it. You can tell the court that's a possibility, but it will be up to the judge to accept.

Hey hkstroud, they had a handicap son and a built in elevator in their home. Do you think the vibration from the elevator may have caused it?
Who knows? I agree with Scott, you only have to inform the court of that as a possibility.

Note that the web site you provided specifies a certain type and size bulb. The statement by the customer that CFL bulbs don't get hot is incorrect. CFL's give off heat, just not as much as incandescent bulbs of the same wattage. That statement by the customer also implies that a CFL bulb was in the fixture.
Take note that the web site you provided specifies a certain bulb, a 60 watt T4 halogen bulb. You removed the bulb, what kind was in the fixture. The web site also shows a plug in type bulb, your photo shows a screw in CFL, was the fixture modified?
My opinion about legal matters is worth exactly what you paid for it, nothing. But in my opinion, that information and those questions should weigh heavily in your favor.
Also in my opinion it is incorrect to say that the court cannot make you pay. The court can issue a judgment against you. In Virginia that judgment, which is good for twenty years, can be turned into a wage garnishment and if pushed, into a property lien.

I would be prepared with a copy of the web site specifying the bulb type and size and picture of the replacement bulb.

Who is going to win this case? Not the one that is right, but the one that is best prepared.

Factory spec sheet you showed us is for a t4 g9 pin base halogen. How did they get to a CFL? Use an adapter? Halogens are noted for intense heat output.

Ma06, I don't know were the customer got the light. This is only what I found online.

Here is CFL version... Tech Lighting 700TDFIRGPC-CF Fire Grande Translucent Clear Glass Line Voltage Fluorescent Pendant - LightingDirect.com (http://www.lightingdirect.com/tech-lighting-700tdfirgpc-cf-fire-grande-translucent-clear-glass-line-voltage-fluorescent-pendant/p2222573)

Case was settled through mediation. We agreed to call it even and not go to trial.

A wise decision, kind of what we advised.

Sounds about fair. Thanks for reporting back to AMHD.
Best wishes with your painting projects.

A wise decision, kind of what we advised.

Scott, we did make it to the court room and after the judge called the names of all cases scheduled that day, he referred all cases to a mediator. The court room was packed with cases. The judge stated, "if I don't have time to try your case today", you will be rescheduled to come back next Wednesday.

So I wanted this done. I would have never sued the guy. I sued only because he sued me. An attorney told me years ago, "if someone sues you, file a counter lawsuit"!

I this small claims is a waste of time.