we are at war

I received this email this morning and I now know the lunatic fringe is loose again


For the attention of the Australian Media.

I have been doing quite a lot of research into the manipulation of weather for military purposes and I would like to invite people to read the articles provided. I have reason to believe that Hurricane Sandy and Cyclone Evan may have been manufactured (Weather Warfare). I also have reason to believe that Cyclone Oswald (2013 East Australia Floods) was also manufactured, but unfortunately I can't prove this. Cyclone Oswald occurred around the same period as Hurricane Sandy and Cyclone Evan. Take some time to read what I have written about Sandy and Evan. Hopefully what I have written will persuade people to turn their attention to this cause.

Article #1: Hurricane Sandy, Weather Warfare?
Hurricane Sandy, Weather Warfare? (http://weatherwarfare.worldatwar.info/2012/11/hurricanesandy/)


Article #2: Weather modification, why we should be concerned
Weather modification, why we should be concerned (http://weatherwarfare.worldatwar.info/2012/12/weather-modification-why-we-should-be-concerned/)


I also have reason to believe that the use of weather modification is severely effecting our climate. NASA states that:

“Even small changes in the abundance or location of clouds could change the climate more than the anticipated changes caused by greenhouse gases, human-produced aerosols, or other factors associated with global change.“

This statement suggests that weather modification has a great deal more of an effect on climate then greenhouse gases and human-produced aerosols. Why isn't this effect discussed publicly? Why isn't the effect of weather modification on climate part of the climate change debate?

Article #3: Cyclone Evan, a direct attack on Samoa and Fiji?
Cyclone Evan, a direct attack on Samoa and Fiji? (http://weatherwarfare.worldatwar.info/2012/12/cyclone-evan-a-direct-attack-on-samoa-and-fiji/)


Article #4: The Environmental Modification Convention, ENMOD
The Environmental Modification Convention, ENMOD (http://weatherwarfare.worldatwar.info/2013/05/environmental-modification-convention/)


Richard Dunn

The Resistance (http://www.worldatwar.info)

I can understand an attack on the US and even Australia but Samoa and Fiji, it's a long bow, what is to be gained?

I think Richard Dunn needs to go back on whatever medications he went off.

I think whomever wrote that originally needs to go back on whatever medications they went off of.

Yes they certainly seem fixated on finding a new cause (not climate change) for unusual weather, I need to change the sensitivity of my spam filter

yes they certainly seem fixated on finding a new cause (not climate change) for unusual weather, I need to change the sensitivity of my spam filter

Actually you just need to pay attention a little closer to what is going on. They do talk about forcing the weather to change and ways of doing so. Also it has already been proven by scientific study how clouds and contrails affect the tempratures at ground level. They are facts that can be repeated. Im not saying anyone attacked anybody but we do need to keep a leash on science and make sure it is used properly as we move into the future.

Actually you just need to pay attention alittle closer to what is going on. They do talk about forcing the weather to change and ways of doing so. Also it has already been proven by scientific study how clouds and contrails affect the tempratures at ground level. They are facts that can be repeated. Im not saying anyone attacked anybody but we do need to keep a leash on science and make sure it is used properly as we move into the future.

Without being a wet blanket, man has been trying to change weather with activities like cloud seeding, but to suggest we have the power to control the track of hurricanes and cyclones requires a leap of faith that is not suggested by the competence of any of our sciences

without being a wet blanket, man has been trying to change weather with activities like cloud seeding, but to suggest we have the power to control the track of hurricanes and cyclones requires a leap of faith that is not suggested by the competence of any of our sciences

The way I see it is that your statement is true for today's times. But they do have technology to increase the size (rating) of a hurricane already. And when they figure out how to influence the upper atmosphere enough to change winds direction then you could in theory steer one. That is why I said what I did. We need to keep an eye on things and be openminded when it comes to science and its progression.

What would you have said if I told you 5 years ago that we (USA) would be monitoring and saving all of the communications for our citizens on a daily basis? Im sure you would have had a good laugh. But look where we are today and just think of what tomorrow brings.

The way I see it is that your statement is true for todays times. But they do have technology to increase the size (rating) of a hurricane already. And when they figure out how to influence the upper atmosphere enough to change winds direction then you could in theory steer one. That is why I said what I did. We need to keep an eye on things and be openminded when it comes to science and its progression.

What would you have said if I told you 5 years ago that we (USA) would be monitoring and saving all of the communications for our citizens on a daily basis? Im sure you would have had a good laugh. But look where we are today and just think of what tomorrow brings.

HAARP and other sundry nightmares, you have sure lost the plot if you think this is a good thing

I'll put on my tin foil hat... The National Hurricane center accurately predicted Sandy's path... ooooooooooooooohhhhhhhh!! This flies in the face of their traditionally inaccurate predictions of heavy hurricane seasons like they predicted for this year. (I'd show you the actual forecast ,but the web site has been deemed non-essential )
NOAA Status Alert (http://governmentshutdown.noaa.gov/)

Then again ;given their prediction ,perhaps some of their activities are non-essential .
2013 hurricane season quiet, but not over, experts warn | NOLA.com (http://www.nola.com/hurricane/index.ssf/2013/09/2013_hurricane_season_quiet_bu.html)

It isn't over yet... they can save themselves by firing up ole - HAARPy

Better get used to it, in spite of the science that says we aren't warming the IPCC says our only hope is geo-engineering the climate (http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/jun/15/ipcc-geo-engineering-climate). What could go wrong?

Evidently the working group report that came out this week differed from the political summary that was trumpetted last week.It says they have no data from which to express strong confidence in anything. The climate stopped warming 15 years ago; stalled; now cooler in some places. None of the IPCC models successfully predicted that. In fact, plug the models in to 1900 and they still don't predict what we already know occurred.

HAARP and other sundry nightmares, you have sure lost the plot if you think this is a good thing

What I had said was that we need to keep an eye on things so nobody gets the idea of going there. Science is moving at a much faster pace then we can understand. That's not a bad thing but bad things can come from it. That is why we need to be diligent and keep our eyes open. It may not be happening now but 20 or 30 years from know and who knows. Strech back to the 80's and look where we are now. Technology is booming around us.

No more Manhattan projects, well I don't see how we can stop it, like the Sorcerer's Apprentice we always mess with things we don't understand and then say OOPS!

no more Manhattan projects, well I don't see how we can stop it, like the Sorcerer's Apprentice we alwyas mess with things we don't understand and then say OOPS!

I know and imagine how the Swiss feel.

Sorry, I must have missed something. What do the Swiss have to do with it?

sorry, I must have missed something. What do the Swiss have to do with it?

Ring any bells for you now ?

The Large Hadron Collider | CERN (http://home.web.cern.ch/about/accelerators/large-hadron-collider)

Lol

Ring any bells for you now ?

The Large Hadron Collider | CERN (http://home.web.cern.ch/about/accelerators/large-hadron-collider)

lol

Still not on the same page are you suggesting the collider is used to manipulate weather?

still not on the same page are you suggesting the collider is used to manipulate weather?

No, Im saying that its one of those places where science can have an Opps. And the world will know. Like you were saying earlier.

Originally Posted by paraclete
no more Manhattan projects, well I don't see how we can stop it, like the Sorcerer's Apprentice we alwyas mess with things we don't understand and then say OOPS!

No, Im saying that its one of those places where science can have an Opps. And the world will know. Like you were saying earlier.

Originally Posted by paraclete
no more Manhattan projects, well I don't see how we can stop it, like the Sorcerer's Apprentice we alwyas mess with things we don't understand and then say OOPS!

Yes I get it now, it could start a chain reaction, create a mini sun or some such

Yes I get it now, it could start a chain reaction, create a mini sun or some such

Oh man ! The chances that smashing a single atom will cause a mini-sun is nil to zero

There was a time Tom when smashing an atom was a dream but it became a reality and out of that came 50 years of fear and suspicition, You cannot tell where this reseach will take you but they are trying to create fission. We are always dealing with forces we don't understand, as I said before the sorcerer's apprentice

they are trying to create fission. They are looking for the Higgs boson... the so called "God Particle " . This is more like the Tower of Babel than sorcerer's apprentice .

They are looking for the Higgs boson .... the so called "God Particle " . This is more like the Tower of Babel than sorcerer's apprentice .

They found that months ago

Nahh they think they did . I am no expert in physics by any means . But I think the claim that the neutrino travelled faster than the speed of light was a premature and false report.The margin of error for that experiment was far greater than what was reported at CERN. Besides , it has not been replicated so by their own scientific standards it is still in the hypothesis stage.

Yes machines like that take a lot of maintenance makes you wonder why bother

Hello again,

Climate change is NOT whether. It does EFFECT the whether, though. I wonder how my right wing friends view these once in a century storms that are hitting us these days.

Now, I dunno if they mean anything... But, I know the gamble you take if you DENY climate change, is with our destiny. Given that being WRONG would be cataclysmic, I'd rather err on the side of living. You? Not so much.

Besides, the oil is gonna run out pretty soon, and we'll have to DO something THEN.. Why not start now? You DO know that we're gonna run out of oil, don't you??

Actually, I'm not sure you do.

excon

Whether you believe in climate change is irrelevant because what we do know for fact is mother nature can wipe out whatever man builds and it costs money to rebuild it. MUCH money. So rebuilding stuff until it happens again is a losing proposition, and expensive.

Solutions, besides more tax breaks and shrink the government and tough luck.

Hello again,

Climate change is NOT whether. It does EFFECT the whether, though. I wonder how my right wing friends view these once in a century storms that are hitting us these days.

Now, I dunno if they mean anything... But, I know the gamble you take if you DENY climate change, is with our destiny. Given that being WRONG would be cataclysmic, I'd rather err on the side of living. You? Not so much.

Besides, the oil is gonna run out pretty soon, and we'll have to DO something THEN.. Why not start now? You DO know that we're gonna run out of oil, don't you??

Actually, I'm not sure you do.

excon

We are doing something, we're covering the planet in giant bird-whacking windmills, solar panels and toxic batteries.

Hello again,

Climate change is NOT whether. It does EFFECT the whether, though. I wonder how my right wing friends view these once in a century storms that are hitting us these days.

Now, I dunno if they mean anything... But, I know the gamble you take if you DENY climate change, is with our destiny. Given that being WRONG would be cataclysmic, I'd rather err on the side of living. You? Not so much.

Besides, the oil is gonna run out pretty soon, and we'll have to DO something THEN.. Why not start now? You DO know that we're gonna run out of oil, don't you??

Actually, I'm not sure you do.

excon

What we do know is that available reserves of oil and gas will last this century . However ,it's not likely that humans will still be relying on oil at the end of this century. Oil is getting more expensive to find and extract and that alone is a good reason for the marketplace to explore alternatives. The reserves are there and will last a long time . Cheap oil's days are over.

What we do know is that available reserves of oil and gas will last this century . However ,it's not likely that humans will still be relying on oil at the end of this century. Oil is getting more expensive to find and extract and that alone is a good reason for the marketplace to explore alternatives. The reserves are there and will last a long time . Cheap oil's days are over.

Why?

Why what ?

Why are the day of cheap oil over?

Why are the day of cheap oil over?

Increasing world wide demand ....and the rising cost of production, thanks to more complex and expensive extraction processes, means oil prices are expected to continue to rise in the future.There was cheap oil when it was located relatively on the surface . That oil supply has been depleted .

Anti-pipeline protesters gather in Calgary to decry climate change | Calgary | News | Calgary Sun (http://www.calgarysun.com/2013/11/16/anti-pipeline-protesters-gather-in-calgary-to-decry-climate-change)


Dozens of anti-pipeline and oilsands activists gathered Saturday in downtown Calgary as part of a nation-wide protest focusing on climate change.

The peaceful gathering in Calgary, held inside the Plus—15 walkway between the headquarters of Enbridge and TransCanada Corp. was part of the Defend Our Climate protest that took place in 130 communities across Canada.

Chantal Chagnon with the Idle No More movement, said they're trying to get the attention of the energy industry and the Canadian Parliament to the growing global opposition to “pipelines, tar sands expansions and other polices that contribute to runaway climate change.”

“We're seeing the effects of global warming and we can't keep denying it because obviously something is happening,” Chagnon said.

“We have to take advantage of our knowledge at this point and really change our behaviour, change our way of development.

“We can't keep developing infinitely on a finite world.”

Chagnon said it was important to hold a peaceful gathering in Calgary, because the city is home to the headquarters of several energy giants.

The protest was held as world leaders in Poland for the United Nations Climate Change Conference discuss plans for international co-operation on the issue.

Protestors in Calgary said the Harper government is refusing to take meaningful action when it comes to climate change.

Originally about 300 people were slated to participate in the Calgary protest, but due to a snow storm only about 50 showed up.

Anti-pipeline protesters gather in Calgary to decry climate change | Calgary | News | Calgary Sun (http://www.calgarysun.com/2013/11/16/anti-pipeline-protesters-gather-in-calgary-to-decry-climate-change)

Well, who wants to come out in the cold to whine about global warming?

Well, who wants to come out in the cold to whine about global warming?

Why don't I whine about somethingelse. Every time there is a natural disaster we are told that it is caused by climate change, as if there were no natural disasters before climate change was "discovered". I am fed to the back teeth with this idea that we can control the weather, with the idea that reducing carbon emissions is going to stop these events and restore us to pre-climate change conditions. The evidence is not in a thousand years. Any action we take is tokenism taken to the extreme.

The disaster in the Philippines is terrible, but only avoidable if people do not build their homes at the waters edge and construct buildings that can withstand catastrophic events. As each nation experiences these events, there is change. What is needed is concerted action to educate whole populations of the risks. Did they learn from the tsunami and move back from the beach, the reality is they didn't and no amount of whining about climate change will do anything for them

Why don't I whine about somethingelse. every time there is a natural disaster we are told that it is caused by climate change, as if there were no natural disasters before climate change was "discovered". I am fed to the back teeth with this idea that we can control the weather, with the idea that reducing carbon emissions is going to stop these events and restore us to pre-climate change conditions. The evidence is not in a thousand years. Any action we take is tokenism taken to the extreme.


That's because it's all agenda driven. Weather happens.

That's because it's all agenda driven. Weather happens.

Yes and catastrophic events play to the agenda. I'm waiting for the clamour as a shopping centre was torn apart by a tornado here the other day. No doubt it will be the fault of climate change even though I remember a similar event in the 70's. Only last month we had catastrophic fires, caused not by climate change, but military stupidity and fire bugs, but climate change got an outing on that one too.


Your nation and mine have played their part in reducing emissions while others continue to grow unabated but is the debate in our nations deminished? No? The climate lobby will not stop until we are back in the dark ages, living as they do in third world countries. We cannot go back to 1990, that hallowed benchmark, because our populations continue to grow

Greenhouse emissions at record levels with China the leading contributor (http://www.smh.com.au/environment/greenhouse-emissions-at-record-levels-with-china-the-leading-contributor-20131119-2xtfw.html)

We met and bettered our Kyoto target, current projection suggest we will halve our emissions by 2030, I would like to see China halve its emissions and I would like them to match this plan

Beyond Zero Emissions (http://bze.org.au/)

The climate lobby will not stop until we are back in the dark ages, living as they do in third world countries.

Yep. I volunteer all of the climate lobby to take the lead on that. We can start with Al Gore. Hell, I'll even buy him a yurt.

Never happen, they will save themselves long before they save us

Hello again,

When a Chevy Volt crashes, or a Tesla catches fire, one side of the debate snickers and uses these examples to show us that this stuff will NEVER work. My side, however, uses these examples to show how this stuff absolutely WILL work.

What??? Right wingers don't understand the scientific rule saying that you have to break a few eggs?? Would they rather we didn't look at things that MIGHT get us off fossil fuels??

excon

Funny how the nanny state that won't let us buy Buckyballs is OK with using drivers as human marshmallows.

'Buckyballs' magnate says feds took him down for speaking out | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/11/20/buckyballs-magnate-says-feds-took-him-down-for-speaking-out/)

In fact, from 2009 to 2011, the CPSC says some 1,700 children have been hospitalized after ingesting Buckyballs or similar, high-powered magnets.

Children also have problems with peanuts, do we ban them, too?


Zucker says he worked vigorously with the agency and had five warning labels on the product.Maxfield & Oberton, Zucker's company, complied when the agency sought a recall in 2010, asking to adjust the warning label on the product. But in 2012, the agency sought a "stronger recall of the product."

"Essentially, it was a declaration that we were going out of business," Zucker said.The commission was on the brink of outlawing products that it not only approved, but even helped create the warning labels for, Zucker told FoxNews.com. He said the CPSC was adamant about the product recall, asked stores to stop selling them and did not listen to any recommendations from Maxfield & Oberton to assuage the agency's safety concern. The agency filed an administrative lawsuit hours after receiving his company's recommendation, he said.

With his million-dollar company belly-up for a product he still believes is safe, Zucker lashed out against what he considered government overreach. He took out online ads lampooning the nanny-state regulatory mentality.

"Coconuts: tasty fruit or deadly sky ballistic?" read one. "Stairways: are they really worth the risk?"

I get it though, you're ok with public schools that can't teach people how to read warning labels, punishing success and selling toaster ovens on wheels.

Got no sympathy for laid off Chinese workers in the grand scheme of things. Or conflating everything to the level blame the government. Warning labels? Make the magnets harder to swallow, like bigger, and changing the shape? Naw, too expensive and requires creativity.

great American success story.............importing small, high-powered magnets from China.

??

Thanks for confirming my point.

great American success story.............importing small, high-powered magnets from China.


\and this has to do with climate change, how? do the magnets change the weather?

More to the point Japan and Australia have backed off on forward committments to CO2 reductions which of course means the BRICS have their knickers in a knot about it, where were they in the days of Kyoto?

\and this has to do with climate change, how? do the magnets change the weather?

More to the point Japan and Australia have backed off on forward committments to CO2 reductions which of course means the BRICS have their knickers in a knot about it, where were they in the days of Kyoto?

Japan has more important things to deal with . The Chi-coms are at it again
China claims air rights over disputed islands - World - The Boston Globe (http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/world/2013/11/24/china-claims-air-rights-over-disputed-islands/JBbrunt7qnVBUkPuI8hx9L/story.html)

so there is a typoon in the south china sea, what they are talking about is a couple of lumps of rock and it is all about oil anyway

so there is a typoon in the south china sea, what they are talking about is a couple of lumps of rock and it is all about oil anyway

it's about aggressive territorial expansion. It's not just Japan ,but EVERY country in the seas around Japan ;and every nation they border . Wake up

it's about aggressive territorial expansion. It's not just Japan ,but EVERY country in the seas around Japan ;and every nation they border . Wake up

China has widened its radar net, Japan is upset that China has flown planes in the area. China has said this in no way impacts on the usual operations of other nations in the area.

I think you need to wake up! China has territorial claims, Japan has territorial cliams so China and Japan need to sort it out, hopefully without the warships lining up.

I think that your attitude is remarkable for an nation that has swallowed a great deal of territory merely on the basis of proximity

I wonder if Australia was similarly unconcerned when the Japanese were expanding their sphere.

I wonder if Australia was similarly unconcerned when the Japanese were expanding their sphere.


As I recall Tom we sold the Japanese certain commodites prior to WWII and expected our imperial pals to cover us with their umbrella, I see the same scenario and I hope we don't have the same outcome

Let us think about this latest agreement on climate chanege for a moment, the nations agreed to contribute to climate change abatement, they specifically didn't make committments. Could the aftermath of Kyoto have demonstrated that it is too hard, or foolish, to tie the nation to a specific level of emissions. Now my nation met its Kyoto committments but going beyond a 5% abatement target which basically takes us back to the 1990 start point is in the too hard basket. When we look at why; we have little heavy manufacturing left, our emissions come from transport and electricity generation and there hasn't been a new power station built in many years, in fact they are starting to think of mothballing one. I suspect it is just as difficult for other developed nations, there is nothing to give up but life style and our roofs to solar panels

Now Tom will get a laugh that many of those solar panels originate in China, we sell them commodities they refine, and we suspect contribute to emissions and they ship us equipment to abate emissions. It seems to me that something is working and this concentration on national emissions is so much hogwash

Speaking of selling things to China, they get a car company and we get stuck with the bill.

Fisker Automotive failure could hit U.S. taxpayers for years to come (http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE9AO0PX20131125?irpc=932)

As I recall Tom we sold the Japanese certain commodites prior to WWII and expected our imperial pals to cover us with their umbrella, I see the same scenario and I hope we don't have the same outcome

as for us ;we have a security agreement with Japan dating to 1960 that requires us to defend the territorial claim of the islands by the Japanese . The rest of the nations in and around the 1st island chain will watch to see if we honor our commitment . A different President would've already flown B1 bombers through their so called air defense identification zone (ADIZ) in the East China Sea .

Hello again,

Fisker Automotive failure could hit U.S. taxpayers for years to comeCouple things.

On another thread, tom mentions all the oil under his feet and said that economic development is the way to end poverty, or words to that effect. BUT, when economic development doesn't work so well, as in the Fisker, it's a BAD thing.

And, speaking of Fisker, the Chevy Volt, and Tesla, when the development of a brand new industry, ISN'T a straight line from conception to success, you right wingers BAD MOUTH the failures. You should be applauding the entrepreneurship, instead. Those companies are doing things the right wing should LOVE.

excon

On another thread, tom mentions all the oil under his feet and said that economic development is the way to end poverty, or words to that effect. BUT, when economic development doesn't work so well, as in the Fisker, it's a BAD thing.

And on every other post Tal complains about corporate welfare.

P.S. How much Medicaid and food stamps could you get for $488 million?

Hello again, Steve:

How much Medicaid and food stamps could you get for $488 million?You always ask the wrong question.. Remember the son who complained that they didn't wear shoes in China? The RIGHT question is how much will we save when the technology WORKS..

The answer to that, of course, is EVERYTHING!!!

excon

You always ask the wrong question.. Remember the son who complained that they didn't wear shoes in China? The RIGHT question is how much will we save when the technology WORKS..

The answer to that, of course, is EVERYTHING!!!

So how many years should my daughter get crappy healthcare so you can have another hybrid automobile? You do know we already have hybrids by Toyota, Ford, Nissan, Honda, and well, pretty much everyone.

And, speaking of Fisker, the Chevy Volt, and Tesla, when the development of a brand new industry, ISN'T a straight line from conception to success, you right wingers BAD MOUTH the failures. You should be applauding the entrepreneurship, instead.
I would if that were the case. Instead what we have is the goverment trying to invent an industry on the taxpayer's dime. That aint entrepreneurship in a capitalist system ...that instead is cronyism ;passing on the taxpayer's money to industries the government favors at the expense of those not as connected . If tal et al complain about crony capitalism these examples are where you should begin your griping .

Hello again, Steve:

So how many years should my daughter get crappy healthcare so you can have another hybrid automobile? Again, it's the WRONG question, and the WRONG conclusion... Whether your daughter gets better care or not, DOES NOT DEPEND on whether we invest in new technology. You COULD have blamed the joint strike fighter that nobody wants, as the reason for your daughters crappy health care, and that would have made NO sense either.

Plus, hybrids are NOT the holy grail that'll save the world. They are, but one, of MANY small steps we must make.

When I said EVERYTHING above, I meant everything.. You THINK us greenies want to DESTROY our standard of living, when actually we want to SAVE it. How is it that you don't understand that??? We ARE gonna run out of oil. If we DON'T have an alternative, our standard of living IS gonna CRASH, won't it??? What about this is so hard???

excon

All the rich guys are somebody's crony or another. It's not a big circle. We should all be outraged about corporate welfare given we are outraged about the poor getting it. Of course your worship of the dollar precludes some from seeing the difference between eating, and making money for rich guys.

I know, who cares if a poor family fails in economic downturns, or a middle classer loses their jobs, as long as rich guys stay rich whether they fail, or NOT. Now you want to say it's okay for your rich guys to get what they can but not mine? Dude get a grip, I ain't got no rich guy. And yours ain't doing much better for you either. I bet though if you tie their taxes and welfare to unemployment rates here at home, they would live up to the title of job creator that YOU give them.

Call it incentive for economic development.

Swiss Rage Against CEO Pay Provokes Vote on Salary Limits - Businessweek (http://www.businessweek.com/news/2013-11-19/ceo-salaries-spark-swiss-passions-as-nation-split-ahead-of-vote#rshare=email_article)

Interesting idea.

Again, it's the WRONG question, and the WRONG conclusion... Whether your daughter gets better care or not, DOES NOT DEPEND on whether we invest in new technology.

Don't tell me what the right question is, I am not concerned about whether or not some Obama cronies get to make gazillions on yet another hybrid car or some rich liberal gets a shiny new hybrid sports car.. It's truly telling how you lefties whine about this very thing UNTIL it comes to your preferred industries and your cronies, at the expense of the very PEOPLE you b*tch about us not wanting to help.

I can find all manner of other wasteful spending to whine about so do we really need to go there? The market has already created your "solution" and has been selling them for years. If you want a plug-in hybrid luxury sports sedan build it yourself. The average Joe is never going to buy your damned Karmas and Volts so I fail to see how that's going to solve anything. If it were a reasonable investment for an affordable car, perhaps, but we have no business using taxpayer millions on status symbols.

as for us ;we have a security agreement with Japan dating to 1960 that requires us to defend the territorial claim of the islands by the Japanese . The rest of the nations in and around the 1st island chain will watch to see if we honor our commitment . A different President would've already flown B1 bombers through their so called air defense identification zone (ADIZ) in the East China Sea .

or some B-52s ...... ok I take it back kudos to the emperor for this move....
BBC News - US B-52 bombers challenge disputed China air zone (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25110011#TWEET966296)

.

or some B-52s ...... ok I take it back kudos to the emperor for this move....
BBC News - US B-52 bombers challenge disputed China air zone (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25110011#TWEET966296)

what ! he did exactly what you expected? he is more brainless that I thought, but then this is the sort of diplomacy we have come to expect from the US

So keeping our agreement with our allies them is brainless?

So keeping our agreement with our allies them is brainless?

there are ways of doing these things that don't include escalation, imposing a military presence before talking it out is backwards

there are ways of doing these things that don't include escalation, imposing a military presence before talking it out is backwards

Did they talk it out before claiming air rights? I didn't think so.

Did they talk it out before claiming air rights? I didn't think so.


I could well image that the US requres all aircraft approaching the US to identify themselves, how far that extends I don't know, but international standards suggest 200 miles is considered territorial waters where there is no other national presence. The Chinese didn't invent this

I could well image that the US requres all aircraft approaching the US to identify themselves, how far that extends I don't know, but international standards suggest 200 miles is considered territorial waters where there is no other national presence. The Chinese didn't invent this

The islands are closer to Taiwan and they don't belong to China (http://thediplomat.com/2013/11/getting-senkaku-history-right/).


Ever since it incorporated the Senkaku Islands into Japanese territory through a Cabinet decision in 1895, the Japanese government has consistently taken the position that the islands are an integral part of the territory of Japan. This stance accords with both international law and the historical facts. The Senkaku have consistently been under Japan’s effective control, except for a period (from 1945 to 1972) when the islands were placed under the administration of the United States as part of Okinawa prefecture.

Before 1971, neither China nor Taiwan made any claims to “territorial sovereignty” over the Senkaku Islands. For 76 years, neither government expressed any objection to Japanese sovereignty over the islands.

Why the change in position? In the late 1960s, a UN agency, the Bangkok-based Economic Commission for Asia and the Far East (ECAFE), surveyed the waters around the Senkaku. The survey suggested potentially rich deposits of oil beneath the seabed. After the ECAFE released its findings, in 1971, the Republic of China (Taiwan) made its first territorial claim to the islands. Several months later the People’s Republic of China followed suit.

So, let’s review the history of the issue more carefully. For ten years starting 1885, Japan conducted field surveys on the Senkaku Islands, scrupulously confirming that the islands had never been inhabited and showed no traces of having been under the control of China’s Qing Dynasty.

Based on this research, the Japanese government decided in January 1895 to erect national territorial markers on the islands, officially incorporating the Senkaku Islands into the territory of Japan. This administrative action was consistent with international law, namely the internationally accepted legal theory of terra nullius (land belonging to no one) concerning the rights of acquisition through occupation.

The Historical Record

As the record shows, Japanese inhabited the Senkaku from 1895 until immediately before the start of World War II. Japanese people sometimes lived on the islands to harvest albatross feathers. During another period, a factory was built to process dried bonito. The population of one of the islands, Uotsuri, topped 200 at one point. In 1920, residents of Ishigaki Island, which was under the jurisdiction of Okinawa prefecture, rescued Chinese fishermen caught in a storm in waters near the Senkaku. The Consul of the Republic of China in Nagasaki sent a signed and sealed letter of appreciation for the rescue in the area of “the Senkaku Islands in the Yaeyama District of the Japanese Empire’s Okinawa Prefecture.” The letter cited the names of the residents of Ishigaki Island, whom the consul noted “were willing and generous in the rescue operation.”

Just over three years after the People’s Republic of China’s birth, a January 8, 1953 article in the People’s Daily, an organ of the Communist Party of China had the Senkaku as Japanese territory. A World Atlas published in China in 1960 showed the islands as part of Japan. According to notes taken at meetings of the Chinese government around 1950, copies of which were recently obtained exclusively by the Jiji Press news agency, Chinese government officials were using the Japanese name “Senkaku Islands,” indicating that they considered the Senkaku part of Okinawa prefecture.

Nice research speech. So now there is a three way tustle for soverienty. I wonder it the islands have mineral riches why isn't anyone exploiting them, could it be they are once again terra nullius. In 1885 China was hardly in a position to argue with Japan, I think this is a Typoon in the china sea

Hello, I think this post is ridiculous. Science has not advanced this far that it can control weather. Otherwise there would be no blockage from snow drifts in cold areas. These hurricanes were part of a natural phenomena; you can read more on how huricanes and typhoons are created through this site: Nature Essays | Researchomatic (http://www.researchomatic.com/essay/nature/)

Hello Vincent thanks for bringing the thread back to the point. yes the arguments about whether we can control the weather are rediculous. If we have, by our actions, caused an imbalance, it will be a thousand years before we can redress that balance, but mankind is not reponsible for all of co2 emissions, so even if we stop now 60% still exist from volcanic activity, not to mention the possible impact of permafrost warming. We are fortunate that thus far ocean warming has helped to moderate the effect. I think we should begin to focus on what can be done, not what cannot be done. population is a huge factor in this. Continued population growth undos any effort we might make. if we don't take control of population the planet will do it for us

ah yes the Malthusian solution .it always comes back to humans need to be controlled by the big benevolent nanny state .

Nice research speech. So now there is a three way tustle for soverienty. I wonder it the islands have mineral riches why isn't anyone exploiting them, could it be they are once again terra nullius. In 1885 China was hardly in a position to argue with Japan, I think this is a Typoon in the china sea



Asia is on the cusp of a full-blown arms race. The escalating clash between China and almost all its neighbours in the Pacific has reached a threshold.......
The Senkaku islands offer a perfect opportunity for Beijing to test the resolve of the Obama Administration since it is far from clear to the war-weary American people why they should risk conflict in Asia over these uninhabited rocks near Taiwan, and since it also far from clear whether President Obama's Asian Pivot is much more than a rhetorical flourish.

Besides, Beijing has just watched the US throw its long-time ally Saudi Arabia under a bus over Iran. It has watched Moscow score an alleged victory over Washington in Syria. You and I may think it is an error to infer too much US weakness from these incidents, but that is irrelevant. Beijing seems to be drawing its own conclusions.
China-Japan rearmament is Keynesian stimulus, if it doesn't go horribly wrong – Telegraph Blogs (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ambroseevans-pritchard/100026105/china-japan-rearmament-is-keynesian-stimulus-if-it-doesnt-go-horribly-wrong/)

You and I may think it is an error to infer too much US weakness from these incidents, but that is irrelevant. Beijing seems to be drawing its own conclusions.
Sorta like the Cuban Missile crisis that happened after Khrushchev smacked down Kennedy at the Vienna Conference 1961. It speaks loudly about the perils of appearing weak ,when you hold the upper hand.

Kudos the the Aussies who summoned the Chinese ambassador and telling China that “the timing and the manner of China's announcement are unhelpful in light of current regional tensions, and will not contribute to regional stability.”

“Australia has made clear its opposition to any coercive or unilateral actions to change the status quo in the East China Sea,” said Foreign Minister Julie Bishop.
Criticism of China's ADIZ increases; Japanese airlines do a policy U-turn | The Japan Times (http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/11/27/national/criticism-of-chinas-adiz-increases-japanese-airlines-do-a-policy-u-turn/#.UpTxGuKbLYg)

Kudos the the Aussies who summoned the Chinese ambassador and telling China that “the timing and the manner of China’s announcement are unhelpful in light of current regional tensions, and will not contribute to regional stability.”

Criticism of China's ADIZ increases; Japanese airlines do a policy U-turn | The Japan Times (http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/11/27/national/criticism-of-chinas-adiz-increases-japanese-airlines-do-a-policy-u-turn/#.UpTxGuKbLYg)

Kudos doesn't get you better relations Tom, we are in two diplomatic storms now and both because we supported you. We must all assume China has weighed the risks and has decided that one aircraft carrier is enough to hold back the americans

ah yes the Malthusian solution .it always comes back to humans need to be controlled by the big benevolent nanny state .

who said anything about the nanny state, the advent of television had great impact on population growth in the west, it will help as it spreads in developing countries. We do need to recognise that food supply will become an issue as it has been in northern Africa and may even be in north america. Climate change brings with it the spread of disease as well as the problems of migration. If we don't arrest population growth the next century will see great conflict and enforced solutions

Don't worry about the Chinese, they have their own issues which makes them a bit surly. Let me know when you get a good solution to people breeding.

do tell

Trust me. Now about the breeding thing..?

well tal they tell me that fat women have fewer babies so I expect control of breeding won't be a problem in either of our countries since there are a lot of overfed people. the answer appears simple; expand the food supply, the implementation; more Mcdonald's and KFC outlets, a real weapon against population growth

Somebody has been telling you wrong.

how so

Fat people may have or will have health issues, but they can breed just as much as skinny people.

My observation is that obese women have great difficulty falling pregnant but don't worry, with the march of the gays the human race will soon die out

we whack our babies in the US each year at about the same rate that Hitler wacked the Jews. That's the Malthusian solution I was talking about .

My observation is that obese women have great difficulty falling pregnant but don't worry, with the march of the gays the human race will soon die out

TMI, please, spare us the details of your observations... EWW! You need a better hobby.

TMI, please, spare us the details of your observations... EWW! You need a better hobby.

I have a better hobby, I do this to annoy the rednecks

I was never a fan of the fat ones myself. Never once thought to myself, I want to knock this beefy one up.

I was never a fan of the fat ones myself. Never once thought to myself, I want to knock this beefy one up.

Yes we do get to a point where fat is unattractive

Kudos doesn't get you better relations Tom, we are in two diplomatic storms now and both because we supported you. We must all assume China has weighed the risks and has decided that one aircraft carrier is enough to hold back the americans

and kudos to Tony Abbott
Tony Abbott refuses to back down over China comments (http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/tony-abbott-refuses-to-back-down-over-china-comments-20131128-2ydw1.html#ixzz2m091BzhV)

and kudos to Tony Abbott
Tony Abbott refuses to back down over China comments (http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/tony-abbott-refuses-to-back-down-over-china-comments-20131128-2ydw1.html#ixzz2m091BzhV)

fact is we didn't need to say anything other than to express our concern, and only then because we have the chairmanship of the security council, we should have been speaking only in that capacity and not as a nation.

Now we are intergenerationally inept or is that intergenerationally unjust?


Watch out for climate 'surprises,' scientists warn - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2013/12/03/us/climate-warnings/index.html?hpt=hp_t3)

the latest shot in the climate war is at the one time is saying don't expect quick change, but look out for sudden change and on the other hand saying we should be micro-measuring changes. I think I would like these guys to go beyond their research grants, stop being part of the problem and give us some real solutions

ie;
.recognise Tuvalu is going under and proactively relocate it's citizens, as a well as the many peoples who live literally at sea level.
.develop and adopt innovative technologies which move us away from carbon based fuels
.make cities energy generating instead of energy dependent, food producing instead of food dependent

so far development remains very costly in carbon based fuels to produce alternatives

As in "our wildly inaccurate fear mongering hasn't panned out so 'surprise, hurricane - we told you so'!"

Us humans are sorely unprepared for what Mother Nature brings us no matter the science, fear, or rhetoric.

Maybe spending more on preparation would be better than waiting for the inevitable rebuilding. Maybe save some lives in the process.

Survival of the fittest... the people that refused to leave because they were expecting limo service in New Orleans... shoud be the first to drown... The Gulf coast would be a better place if they had. That applies everywhere.

so the general consensus is we are stupid or at least some of us are. It has always been that the rich get to live in the heights and the poor in the lowlands.

The question isn't about scaremongering, even if we have had more than enough of that, but realisation the change is going to mean that nice beachfront property is undesirable and we will have to find a new mouring for the yacht

so the general consensus is we are stupid or at least some of us are. It has always been that the rich get to live in the heights and the poor in the lowlands.

The question isn't about scaremongering, even if we have had more than enough of that, but realisation the change is going to mean that nice beachfront property is undesirable and we will have to find a new mouring for the yacht

You aren't stupid for living in a low lying area... some very valuable and beautiful land is in low lying areas...

Stupid people sit there and wait for someone to move them when a really bad storm is on its way. The smart ones find a way and move themselves to safety.

smoothy, the point is low land areas are going to become less desirable. On Tuvalu what was beachfront is now inundated part of the time. Those people need an option which noone is offering and that is the key, not so much giving them the transport, but the options. I expect the people in New Orleans didn't move because there were no offers and the football stadium wasn't a great idea afterall

More social Darwinism smoothy? Please tell us more.

smoothy, the point is low land areas are going to become less desirable. On Tuvalu what was beachfront is now inundated part of the time. Those people need an option which noone is offering and that is the key, not so much giving them the transport, but the options. I expect the people in New Orleans didn't move because there were no offers and the football stadium wasn't a great idea afterall

The people in New Orleans didn't leave because they were lazy bums that were expecting someone to move them... and since the mayor (Nagan) ran for the hills nobody did.

Sure some land will become less valuable... and even worthless... but there will be other land that was furhter away and will replace it as beach front and become more valuable.


And that's assuming it actually does rise as much as they claim. Which I seriously doubt since they can't predict the weather for the next week very well.

Some people are really too dumb to be allowed to breed... so you let them die off by their own devices... The herd will thin itself out if left alone. Nobody really needs to actively thin it out.....it will just take longer this way.

Its been that way since the first preditory multicell organism killed its first other organism....and it will always be this this way....its the law of nature.

You can't eliminate entropy either....you can only hold it off temporarily.

The people in New Orleans didn't leave because they were lazy bums that were expecting someone to move them... and since the nayor ran for the hills nobody did.

Sure some land will become less valuable... and even worthless... but there will be other land that was furhter away and will replace it as beach front and become more valuable.


And that's assuming it actually does rise as much as they claim. Which I seriously doubt since they can't predict the weather for the next week very well.

They don't know how much it will rise, but events demonstrate that a number of areas will be at greater risk. I can't remember anyone talking about storm surges when I was young, but it is a regular feature of storms now and the Phillipines is an example of a warming sea fueling a storm. There are two risks, melting ice and a heating ocean, both give rise to higher sea levels.

We don't have to predict the weather to know we will experience various weather conditions and that certain areas are at risk. Prudent planning would suggest that people need to be encouraged to move from these areas

They don't know how much it will rise, but events demonstrate that a number of areas will be at greater risk. I can't remember anyone talking about storm surges when I was young, but it is a regular feature of storms now and the Phillipines is an example of a warming sea fueling a storm. There are two risks, melting ice and a heating ocean, both give rise to higher sea levels.

We don't have to predict the weather to know we will experience various weather conditions and that certain areas are at risk. Prudent planning would suggest that people need to be encouraged to move from these areas

Storm surges always existed... and always will.

Doubt me... look up Galviston... the city was literally scrapped off the earth during a hurricane in 1900... it was the storm surge that did it.

Storm surges always existed... and always will.

Doubt me... look up Galviston... the city was literally scrapped off the earth during a hurricane in 1900... it was the storm surge that did it.

Yes more in your part of the world than mine, I didn't say they didn't exist, let me phrase it another way, they were rarely part of weather predictions and are more regularly predicted now. I expect we understand more about the mechanics of storms now.

We need to be proactive in dealing with the affects of climate change, and we need to stop saying we can stop or reverse the effects, that is science fiction, not scientific fact. The only scientic fact on this subject I will concede is that change is occuring

Yes, smoothy this is more or less what social Dawinism is about. Perhaps you can justify these ideas to those people who survived the devastation of such social theories during the mid part of the 20th century.

No Tuttyd, its people like you that forced the aboriginies and Indians into "reeducation schools" and even sterilized them... stole the wealth from the people that earned it to give to the people that didn't etc... that was done by those promoting social "equity" no matter who they had to steal from to do it. Not unlike inner city thugs do every day.

I and my ancestors weren't. We were busy clawing our way up the ladder to get where we are... which is far from gated communities or even mansions... but what we got we earned every dime of... its wasn't stolen off someone who worked harder, took greater risks or was just luckier than we were.

No Tuttyd, its people like you that forced the aboriginies and Indians into "reeducation schools" and even sterilized them... stole the wealth from the people that earned it to give to the people that didn't etc... that was done by those promoting social "equity" no matter who they had to steal from to do it. Not unlike inner city thugs do every day.

I and my ancestors weren't. We were busy clawing our way up the ladder to get where we are... which is far from gated communities or even mansions... but what we got we earned every dime of... its wasn't stolen off someone who worked harder, took greater risks or was just luckier than we were.


How can you project that on Tutt or anyoneelse for that matter?

For the record, before you include me in your neo-Nazi utopia. I regard myself as part of a stolen generation, a person who because of "do-gooders and general stickybeaks" was removed from my family at birth. I and many of my countrymen do not wish to interfere with aboriginal people but we feel that those who choose to live among us need to assimilate so that they too can benefit as a full member of our society. Those who choose to live a traditional life in some remote place are welcome to it.

Please don't project the ills of your society on us.

How can you project that on Tutt or anyoneelse for that matter?

For the record, before you include me in your neo-Nazi utopia. I regard myself as part of a stolen generation, a person who because of "do-gooders and general stickybeaks" was removed from my family at birth. I and many of my countrymen do not wish to interfere with aboriginal people but we feel that those who choose to live among us need to assimilate so that they too can benefit as a full member of our society. Those who choose to live a traditional life in some remote place are welcome to it.

Please don't project the ills of your society on us.

Thanks clete, very well put.

Smoothy has made some interesting claims about me.I wonder if he is prepared to supply some evidence for assessment. For example, my support for compulsory sterilization. Like everyone,he has access to all of my posts over an extended time frame.

I invite him to supply the evidence.

You don't need evidence for nasty personal attacks Tut.

Yes Tal there are some who make it personal, I always think it is because they are loosing the argument.

Climate change is being used as an excuse for a socialist agenda in certain places, and it must be resisted, not because it isn't happening, but because our puny efforts will change very little. Carbon taxes and trading schemes are at the forefront of this agenda and the excuse for a great wealth transfer to under developed nations. let the oil rich nations give the underdeveloped nations more money to build sand islands because they are not going to get mine

How can you project that on Tutt or anyoneelse for that matter?

For the record, before you include me in your neo-Nazi utopia. I regard myself as part of a stolen generation, a person who because of "do-gooders and general stickybeaks" was removed from my family at birth. I and many of my countrymen do not wish to interfere with aboriginal people but we feel that those who choose to live among us need to assimilate so that they too can benefit as a full member of our society. Those who choose to live a traditional life in some remote place are welcome to it.

Please don't project the ills of your society on us.


I put it on him because of his high and mighty attitude... and the fact it's the very same people who act like they know better than everyone else what is good for them that have done those very same things throughout history...

And almost always its "been for their own good" or they don't know better so we will do it for them"

And it really is still taking place today....with the morons that are trying to force Obamacare on everyone and "redistribute the wealth".

And incidently that post wasn't directed at you...but if you are going to pull that game......you better take a long hard look about what you have been doing yourself...including your thread about how you are trying to dump off on the USA for the results of your own countries spying against Indonesia....(every countrry spys so just own up to it)

Take a bit of your own advice and don't try to project the ills of your own society on others as well. Assuming you don't want to appear to be a hypocrit. And Practice what you preach. Which basically means there isn't a society out there that hasn't done something along those lines in the past or isn't trying to do it in some way today.

And almost always its "been for their own good" or they don't know better so we will do it for them"

And it really is still taking place today....with the morons that are trying to force Obamacare on everyone and "redistribute the wealth".

Yup , since the progressive era began ,it's been the 'progressive man's burden ' to drag society along to their vision of utopia .

Yup , since the progressive era began ,it's been the 'progressive man's burden ' to drag society along to their vision of utopia .

Venezuela is doing what these guys want, throwing greedy capitalists in jail (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/21a4fcfe-4e06-11e3-b15d-00144feabdc0,Authorised=false.html?_i_location=htt p%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F0%2F21a4fcfe-4e06-11e3-b15d-00144feabdc0.html%3Fftcamp%3Dpublished_links%252Fr ss%252Fhome_europe%252Ffeed%252F%252Fproduct%26sit eedition%3Dintl&siteedition=intl&ftcamp=published_links%2Frss%2Fhome_europe%2Ffeed% 2F%2Fproduct&_i_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fcloud.feedly.com%2F#axzz2k jt71Xci), making goods affordable (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/29/us-venezuela-economy-idUSBRE9AS0RM20131129) and other populist measures. Of course they can't keep the lights on (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/03/us-venezuela-blackout-idUSBRE9B202T20131203) but that's obviously right-wing sabotage.

Meanwhile, it's a toasty 14 degrees in Texas this morning. But the lights and heaters are on.

Yeah I remember the silent majority, and the family values crew. Supply siders all, and wealth redistribution that empowered the few to control what the trickle rate was. At least Reagan raised taxes, and grew government as needed to keep a semi rational balance, and move the economy to some sustained growth.

The part we miss of that era was the transition to lower wage jobs and the beginnings of blue collar jobs shrinking and moving over seas after they went south to Mexico to extract cheap labor. And bring dope to sell to fund and arm the next generation of terrorists. Yeah Reagan sold Saddam and Iran all kinds of gas and arms to pay for releasing those hostages that doomed Carter, while touting all those McDonalds jobs and create servants for rich guys.

Nobody cared about those migrant slaves back then until the blue collar jobs started to disappear, and then we needed a fence to stop it. Now instead of building bridges and roads we want to put a bunch of money on the borders and still get fed the line that that the growing poor class are lazy and need no safety net but the job creators need more money to invest overseas to extract more money and trickle down NOTHING.

Get rich and blame progressives why you are poor, while the rich suck the money into their own coffers. Have been for decades but nooooooooo conservatives rather holler than redirect the resources back to US, and hope for that trickle to start coming back.

Cry me a river about conservative values while hiding the robbery that's taking place against many. But don't worry Tom, Speech, when they dump your pensions and benefits and no compensation, you can always keep working hard at McDonalds. I heard Walmart is hiring too. They love hard work and no pay. Cheap labor, the cheaper the better, and forget the trickle. That was a myth in the first place, and that's what the conservative utopia is all about.

Meanwhile, it's a toasty 14 degrees in Texas this morning. But the lights and heaters are on.

Only if you can pay your utility bills that's been going up.

Only if you can pay your utility bills that's been going up

Natural gas, which heats most homes here is pretty cheap right now even though this regime is doing everything it can to make energy "necessarily skyrocket." It would be even easier to pay those bills, too if people weren't mandated into a health insurance policy they can't afford, but I don't expect you to acknowledge that either.

Trickle down is a lib description that has no meaning to me . Reagan "raised taxes " because unlike the emperor ,he knew he had to work with the other side.


Yeah Reagan sold Saddam and Iran all kinds of gas and arms to pay for releasing those hostages that doomed Carter
Yeah I've heard that conspiracy slander before .


Only a lib would think a job at Micky Ds is a job that is a career job . My 'pension' was converted to a self managed account years ago and I'm glad it was .

Smoothy, how about the evidence for your claim? Please feel free to talk to me about it.

Geez Tom, ya gotta eat until you can climb that ladder. And there has to be a ladder and not a step tool.

And Reagan and Iran/Contra are not conspiracy theories, they are just facts of history.

Tom has not only self managed his account he undoubtedly has found out how to eat without working

Tom has not only self managed his account he undoubtedly has found out how to eat without working

I've worked almost 60 hrs /week for over 25 years .I started working in Jr High School delivering papers on my bicycle ,and have not had a year since without working. I did a full time job while going through college ,and often in my youth did 2 jobs .

I've worked almost 60 hrs /week for over 25 years .I started working in Jr High School delivering papers on my bicycle ,and have not had a year since without working. I did a full time job while going through college ,and often in my youth did 2 jobs .


and? so you were a productive member of society, what changed?

Hello again,

I've asked this before... But, it's time to ask it again..

When I was a kid, it was pretty common to just throw your trash on the ground. Nobody thought much about it.. We thought that the land was just soooo vast, and sooooo large, that the trash we threw on the ground wouldn't matter. But, it DID. So, we started DOING something about it, and that effort continues to this day..

When I went to sea in the Navy, it was pretty common to just throw our trash off the fantail. We thought the ocean was soooo vast, and sooo large, that the trash we threw into it wouldn't matter. But, it DID. So we started DOING something about it, and those efforts continue to this day.

These days, it's pretty common to throw our trash into the air. Every day we dump tons and tons of pollutants into our atmosphere. We think it's soooo vast, and sooo big that the trash we're throwing into it won't matter. But, it DOES.

None of the above is science. It's not religion either. It's just me looking around. After our experience with our FINITE landmass, and our FINITE ocean, I cannot imagine anyone thinking that our atmosphere isn't also FINITE.


excon

The major problem for us at the moment is the steady decrease in the ph levels of the southern oceans. Our ocean acts as a carbon sink for half of the worlds CO2.

Apparently there is only a very small movement towards acidity, but small movements are enough to cause tiny micro organisms to be affected. Obviously this has implication for our Great Barrier Reef and the ocean food chain.

So you could argue from our point of view that CO2 in the ocean is a pollutant when it come to simple organisms.

tutt, silt is a pollutant too but we can dump that on the reef so why are we worrying about micrscopic changes in CO2 and ph. I still have issues with declaring a natural substance CO2 a pollutant as the US and ex has done. It is apparent that our planet has mechanisms for dealing with vast quantities of CO2 while at the same time emitting vast quantities. We should be come serious about managing methane which has a far more deadly effect on the atmosphere than CO2 and restoring the affects of deforestation. I hear the US no longer has a CO2 issue having exported its "polluting" industries to China..

This debate is very old and there is little new information, we are told the sun might be in a dormant cycle, but no one has a justification for why the scaremongering isn't backed up by hard evidence. Change in inevietable. If the citizens of the Pacific isles have to migrate now or in a hundred years, no amount of reduction in CO2 emissions will stop that now, so we need to start dealing with the problem of accommodation, not spend our time defending against the tides. destroying world economies will not stop the displacement of these and many other peoples. What might stop them is population control

Yes, I did say

"So you could argue from out point of view that CO2 in the ocean is a pollutant when it comes to simple organisms"



Perhaps instead we can say that large amounts of CO2 when mixed with seawater decreases the PH level.This can be detrimental to simple organisms.

I guess it depends on the emphasis you want to put on the outcome.
A strong emphasis would require the word, 'pollution'. A not so strong; perhaps,'detrimental'.

Regardless, of the choice of words the outcome is still the same.

When you classify CO2 as a pollutant you begin to start the wrong debate, there are many things that are detrimental to various species on this planet and in particlar the human species, should we classify ourselves as a pollutant because that is where your arguments take us? What we have to do is change human behaviour on a whole lot of levels not just one. We should start with the human activity of deforestation, a simple change, since we really don't need to remove forest to have successful agriculture. We can stop the destruction of the marine environment by removing factory fishing. We need to reverse some of our advances but we need to stop talking about CO2 pollution and put the emphasis stopping destructive behaviour particularly the destructive behaviour of multinational corporations and we know right where to start that debate

When you classify CO2 as a pollutant you begin to start the wrong debate, there are many things that are detrimental to various species on this planet and in particlar the human species, should we classify ourselves as a pollutant because that is where your arguments take us? What we have to do is change human behaviour on a whole lot of levels not just one. We should start with the human activity of deforestation, a simple change, since we really don't need to remove forest to have successful agriculture. We can stop the destruction of the marine environment by removing factory fishing. We need to reverse some of our advances but we need to stop talking about CO2 pollution and put the emphasis stopping destructive behaviour particularly the destructive behaviour of multinational corporations and we know right where to start that debate

Hit Clete,

If you are suggesting that I am homing in on one particular aspect of a larger problem then I would say you are correct.

I also agree with your assessment in terms of where to being the debate.

You should then love the drilling in the US that is converting much of our electric generation from coal to natural gas . We are reducing our' carbon footprint' that way and we are reducing our 'carbon footprint ' with reforestation and converting former agricultural land into 2nd growth forest.

Tom one swallow does not a summer make as they say, yes we are all doing our bit, we have even reached the stage of mothballing a coal fired power station, but what has this cost, well I know it has cost a 150% increase in power costs in ten years, maybe even more and was that station taken out of play for lack of demand, no, it was taken out of play because of the cost of coal, which of course is a nonsense since there is no shortage of it

The legacy of this climate change nonsense is to increase the cost of production in developed countries without any overall reduction in CO2 emissions, in other words a wealth transfer to developing countries

Ask the German people about mothballing coal fired plants.

Hello again, clete:

If taken by itself, of course, CO2 isn't a pollutant.. But, if taken by itself, a rose in a tomato garden is a weed. If taken by itself, water in your lungs will KILL you. CO2 is good for my garden, but if it's warming the atmosphere, it's a pollutant.

But, I'm curious as to WHAT the basis is for your denial about the earth warming up. Is it religious? Is it your politics? Do you own energy company stocks?

excon

let me say ex I own energy company stocks, renewable energy company stocks. As far as I can see the Earth might be warming in certain places but it is also intensely cold in others so I prefer to refer to what is happening as climate change and it has been going on long before CO2 became an issue. The fact that you don't want to grow rosehips in your tomato patch is irrevelant but the fact that much data is compromised is not. The science is not settled beyond observable change is taking place. We have a irrational idea that we can reverse the trend. You might have swallowed Gore's bulldust hook line and sinker but my research shows there are many questions to be answered

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-10/scientists-find-explanation-for-global-warming-pause/5248456

Ex this has nothing to do with religion, it might have something to do with politics as I believe the left has hijacked the debate for political ends but what I know is we are beyond the tipping point and now we need to concentrate on the fallout not the imputs

The cause and effect of spewing extra stuff into the atmosphere is undeniable to life. Breaking it down to costs doesn't change that nor will economic dependency. Rather justifies the causes. Just like all the other things that justify pumping extra pollutants and digging in the dirt for dirty stuff.

Good luck stopping people from making profits, no matter the costs to humans and the global environment. That's the problem.

You are right Tal the problem is the system and the means they use the cheapest foulest solutions and take as little responsibility possible. we have modified our use of coal since the problem became apparent but the environmental lobby will settle for nothing less that the destruction of our society and economic system and meanwhile the plants have no opinion

But, I'm curious as to WHAT the basis is for your denial about the earth warming up. Is it religious? Is it your politics? Do you own energy company stocks?

I don't believe we've been denying the climate changes, it ALWAYS has and even more drastically prior to the industrial revolution.

We aren't the ones hiding the decline, fear-mongering about outbreaks of hurricanes every year that never happen, calling for population control for mostly black Africa (http://www.thepiratescove.us/2014/01/28/al-gore-we-really-need-to-control-africas-population/), making ungodly investments of taxpayer money on cars that catch fire that only the rich can afford and create toxic waste problems of their own.

Tis you who should be asking yourself those questions.

Wow, I read the article you linked to; that's the shoddiest piece of slanted writing I've read in a while - I urge everyone to have a look at it. If this is how you get your information then no wonder you are the way you are; the author does exactly what you do - he puts words in other people's mouths then lambasts them for those words the author didn't say.

Wow, I read the article you linked to; that's the shoddiest piece of slanted writing I've read in a while

Wow, it's not an article it's a blog, and I don't care what it said other than quoting the source. What I said was spot on. But feel free to log in at the site and give that blogger a piece of your mind.

I don't care what it said other than quoting the sourceThen why didn't you just go right to the source.. the video? Why have others do the thinking for you?

Why don't you just go pester someone else instead of trolling and insulting me?

but he thinks it's fun speech, you take his bait

I know, and I have fun revealing his immaturity. He always falls for it.

evealing his immaturityHow so?

With ease.

Haha, well played. There's no doubt my maturity level peaked at around 25. That's why I volunteer for events with kids, we're all at the same level LOL.

hmmmmm?

Looming Weak Solar Activity May Herald Frosty Times: 'Current solar cycle, possibly the weakest in 100 years, is approaching its maximum. This may signal a future low period for the sun, probably not unlike the one that caused the Little Ice Ag (http://www.climatedepot.com/2013/08/10/looming-weak-solar-activity-may-herald-frosty-times-current-solar-cycle-possibly-the-weakest-in-100-years-is-approaching-its-maximum-this-may-signal-a-future-low-period-for-the-sun-probably-not/)

All I know is that we have had too many days under the polar vortex around here. More snow tomorrow and we have had virtually no melt down from the previous snow days. My snow blower has been spewing plenty of C02 into the air.

Interesting isn't it. This the highest ever recorded max temp in our region was recorded in the last month of summer.

Still two weeks of summer remaining and the temperature is consistently 100 degs F most days.

Who knows he term, 'season degradation' may be something worth thinking about as a possible explanation.

Just a suggestion

what we know is that things change, in the northern hemisphere the jet stream has come further south, in the southern hemisphere the monsoon is late and we are in drought but I remember those polar blasts last winter we are just lucky we are closer to the equator than they are, we are also experiencing a lower number of cyclones which have a moderating effect on the weather

FYI...

Lake Superior Expected to Freeze Over Completely; Al Gore Unavailable for Comment | Jammie Wearing Fools (http://www.jammiewf.com/2014/lake-superior-expected-to-freeze-over-completely-al-gore-unavailable-for-comment/)

Hello again,

FYI.....

We've LOST the war before right wingers even acknowledged we had one. The damage we've done to our planet is BEYOND the tipping point.. It's over. The 6th Great Extinction is underway. Move to high ground. That might give you a couple years.

Yes, you can quote me.

excon

PS> To the religious amongst you, you can call this the 2nd great flood. I guess God really DOESN'T like gay marriage. Tell your children to build an ark.

Funny how when the climate doesn't cooperate with your fear mongering you just get even more apocalyptic, i.e. you drank the Koolaid.

Ex you want to get biblical on us, the Lord said that the Earth would be destroyed by fire, we take that to mean a sudden confligration and if temperatures rise far enough it might be. This season where I live there are fires right across the country and drought is certainly apocalyptic, but this is a small part of a big Planet. I'm glad you agree we are beyond the tipping point and moving to higher ground isn't going to help you as crops are destroyed and more and more good farming country is covered by concrete and we are already using the ariable land. An ELE you say, biblically we are promised a new Earth

Tens of thousands evacuated, flights cancelled, as Indonesia's Mt Kelud volcano erupts - Australia Network News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-14/an-indonesia-orders-evacuation-as-mount-kelud-erupts/5260134)

this is the second Indonesian volcano in eruption mode and this is far more massive that the first, remember we are only ever five volcanos away from nuclear winter, so I expect this one will be a game changer for the time being, Just the other day we were told that an indonesian volcano is responsible for the foul weather in the UK, apparently it has disrupted the jet stream or destabilised other weather systems. I would like to know who is to blame for the CO2 and methane and other greenhouse gasses it is spewing, can we count that against Indonesian targets, do they even have a target?

For, but not on, climate change.

Clete ,you have to get your talking points straight ... Volcanic activity and other seismic shifts are caused by fracking.

Whether we call it climate change or any other PC label, fact is man has proved to be inadequate in dealing with any of Mother Nature's challenges. Be it hurricanes, tornadoes, snow, rain, or drought... and now volcanoes??

We can't even deal it seems with the man made stuff.

Spill spews tons of coal ash into North Carolina's Dan River - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/09/us/north-carolina-coal-ash-spill/index.html)

And lets not forget the West Virginia debacle,

Hospitals Scrambled to Deal With Chemically Contaminated Water in West Virginia (http://www.newsweek.com/hospitals-scrambled-deal-chemically-contaminated-water-west-virginia-229010)

Tom there is no need for language like that, in fact the Indonesian eruptions are caused by the release of Shapelle Corby and the attendant rush of hot air from the media which has destablised the the region. Indonesia is shaken by the possibility that Shapelle should be allowed to speak about her time in an Indonesian prison, volcanic indeed

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-14/islamists-protest-parole-for-schapelle-corby/5261874

Growing up in a climate of fear - The Drum (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-18/hendrie-growing-up-in-a-climate-of-fear/5265970)

This isn't a war againt people at least not yet, but it will be when the populations shift, where will the millions in Bangladesh go, just as an example, to the west seems logical, they can't go south, they can't go north, there are natural barriers and the east doesn't offer land and opportunity. To do so invites war. Where will the millions of Indonesia and the Phillipines go when their islands flood? I know one place where it will be pointless for them to come because there will be less water than there is now. What is a food basket will become marginal lands. hemned in by the vast Pacific and Indian Oceans they have two choices, neither of which are optimal or even logical. Nor are these instances the tip of the iceberg because every option invites war.

Right now we can't stop a war in Syria, how will we stop the wars of the future?, the climate wars

Where will Australians go for that matter after a major climate catastrophe?

For us Tasmania is a possibility whilst our population isn't too large, if Britain could do it so could we. But we shouldn't worry about Australia we understand the harsh realities of climate since we have every expression within our borders, our concerns rest beyond our borders since those to the north will have to go somewhere and an ocean represents an immediate boundry forcing them in the other direction, Africa is a possibility, they could reverse the initial migration paths.

If we have concerns for climate change they are that our farm land becomes marginal

But Clete what if they process you to a gulag you know like Manus Island before they let you walk freely about. After all you would be a refugee?

Not in Tasmania, we have owned it for a long time as a place of last retreat, of course we may just give the mainland back to the abo's, they understand living in a harsh environment with no modern conveniences

Tens of thousands evacuated, flights cancelled, as Indonesia's Mt Kelud volcano erupts - Australia Network News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-14/an-indonesia-orders-evacuation-as-mount-kelud-erupts/5260134)

this is the second Indonesian volcano in eruption mode and this is far more massive that the first, remember we are only ever five volcanos away from nuclear winter, so I expect this one will be a game changer for the time being, Just the other day we were told that an indonesian volcano is responsible for the foul weather in the UK, apparently it has disrupted the jet stream or destabilised other weather systems. I would like to know who is to blame for the CO2 and methane and other greenhouse gasses it is spewing, can we count that against Indonesian targets, do they even have a target?

Didn't I mention the other day that the pseudo-scientists of climate change love to change their models to cover the repeated failure of their alarmist predictions to materialize? Yes, I believe I did, and here we go again...

(http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/volcanic-eruptions-contributed-to-global-warming-pause-scientists-claim-9147856.html)Volcanic eruptions ‘contributed to global warming pause’, scientists claim (http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/volcanic-eruptions-contributed-to-global-warming-pause-scientists-claim-9147856.html)



“We show that climate model simulations without the effects of early 21st century volcanic eruptions overestimate the tropospheric warming observed since 1998,” wrote Dr Benjamin Santer in the journal Nature Geoscience.

And that's the problem with basing your science on simulations, it ain't the real thing.

Didn't I mention the other day that the pseudo-scientists of climate change love to change their models to cover the repeated failure of their alarmist predictions to materialize? Yes, I believe I did, and here we go again...

(http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/volcanic-eruptions-contributed-to-global-warming-pause-scientists-claim-9147856.html)Volcanic eruptions 'contributed to global warming pause', scientists claim (http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/volcanic-eruptions-contributed-to-global-warming-pause-scientists-claim-9147856.html)




And that's the problem with basing your science on simulations, it ain't the real thing.

It's called modifying the hypothesis in the hope of saving the theory. I think I mentioned that before in a different thread.

AKA moving the goalpost.

AKA moving the goalpost.

You could call it that, but as I pointed out before that's how science works.

Best not to idealize science too much.

we need to get this straight there is science and there is climate change theory. we should stop calling computer predictions science

And this I how politics and money works

Exxon CEO sues to stop fracking project, hurts his property values (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/02/21/1279451/-Exxon-CEO-sues-to-stop-fracking-project-hurts-his-property-values)#


As ExxonMobil's CEO, it's Rex Tillerson's job to promote the hydraulic fracturing enabling the recent oil and gas boom, and fight regulatory oversight. The oil company is the biggest natural gas producer in the U.S., relying on the controversial drilling technology to extract it. The exception is when Tillerson's $5 million property value might be harmed. Tillerson has joined a lawsuit that cites fracking's consequences in order to block the construction of a 160-foot water tower next to his and his wife's Texas home.
The Wall Street Journal reports the tower would supply water to a nearby fracking site, and the plaintiffs argue the project would cause too much noise and traffic from hauling the water from the tower to the drilling site. The water tower, owned by Cross Timbers Water Supply Corporation, “will sell water to oil and gas explorers for fracing [sic] shale formations leading to traffic with heavy trucks on FM 407, creating a noise nuisance and traffic hazards,” the suit says.

what goes around comes around

Greenpeace co-founder: No scientific evidence of man-made global warming (http://dailycaller.com/2014/02/25/greenpeace-co-founder-no-scientific-evidence-of-man-made-global-warming/#ixzz2uODargFK)



I expect CNN to jump on this and inform him the debate is over.

Now that a Greenpeace co-founder has been outed as a denier, back to fear-mongering "science."

Study: Global Warming Will Cause 180,000 More Rapes by 2099 (http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/02/climate-change-murder-rape)

Hello again, Steve:
No scientific evidence of man-made global warming (http://dailycaller.com/2014/02/25/greenpeace-co-founder-no-scientific-evidence-of-man-made-global-warming/#ixzz2uODargFK)

I've said this before, but it bears repeating..

I'm NOT a scientist.. I'm just a guy looking around. When I was a kid, we used to throw our trash on the ground, I guess cause we thought the land was soooo big, that the trash wouldn't matter.. But, it did.

When I was in the Navy, we threw our trash off the fantail of the ship, I guess cause we thought the ocean was soooo big, that the trash wouldn't matter... But, it did.

Now, we're throwing our trash into the air, I guess because we think it's sooo big, that the trash won't matter... But, it does, and I can't imagine ANYONE thinking it doesn't..

excon

Hello again, Steve:

I've said this before, but it bears repeating..

I'm NOT a scientist.. I'm just a guy looking around. When I was a kid, we used to throw our trash on the ground, I guess cause we thought the land was soooo big, that the trash wouldn't matter.. But, it did.

When I was in the Navy, we threw our trash off the fantail of the ship, I guess cause we thought the ocean was soooo big, that the trash wouldn't matter... But, it did.

Now, we're throwing our trash into the air, I guess because we think it's sooo big, that the trash won't matter... But, it does, and I can't imagine ANYONE thinking it doesn't..

excon





Hello again ex,

For the 9726th time, no one thinks throwing trash in the air is a good thing. CO2 is not trash, plants need it. But I don't like smog any more than the next guy.

Now, lying to us about climate change isn't a good thing either. Fear-mongering about climate change - especially while profiting nicely off your preaching while leaving a huge carbon footprint - isn't a good thing. Enriching your political cronies off of climate change, isn't a good thing. Using climate change as a power grab, isn't a good thing. Using the jackboot approach (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/02/24/heating-up-climate-change-advocates-try-to-silence-krauthammer/) against those who may disagree with you or, egad, dare to actually present research that contradicts your agenda, isn't a good thing.

One might think you and I would agree on those things, too.

If CO2 was all they spewed from factories and refineries you may have a point (Naw you don't since we humans can't breath high levels of CO2, or low levels for very long... science!), but fact is there are many other bi products of burning fossil fuels.

Science-
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071022151535.htm

Science-
Fossil Fuel Combustion Waste | Special Wastes | Wastes | US EPA (http://www.epa.gov/osw/nonhaz/industrial/special/fossil/)

More science-
Fossil fuel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_fuel)


Combustion of fossil fuels generates sulfuric, carbonic, and nitric acids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitric_acid), which fall to Earth as acid rain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid_rain), impacting both natural areas and the built environment. Monuments and sculptures made from marble (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marble) and limestone are particularly vulnerable, as the acids dissolve calcium carbonate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_carbonate).
Fossil fuels also contain radioactive materials, mainly uranium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium) and thorium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium), which are released into the atmosphere. In 2000, about 12,000 tonnes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonnes) of thorium and 5,000 tonnes of uranium were released worldwide from burning coal.[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_fuel#cite_note-28) It is estimated that during 1982, US coal burning released 155 times as much radioactivity into the atmosphere as the Three Mile Island (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Mile_Island) incident.[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_fuel#cite_note-29)
Burning coal also generates large amounts of bottom ash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bottom_ash) and fly ash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fly_ash). These materials are used in a wide variety of applications (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fly_ash#Fly_ash_reuse), utilizing, for example, about 40% of the US production.[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_fuel#cite_note-30)..................................Moreover, these environmental pollutions impacts on the human beings because its particles of the fossil fuel on the air cause negative health effects when inhaled by people. These health effects include premature death, acute respiratory illness, aggravated asthma, chronic bronchitis and decreased lung function. So, the poor, undernourished, very young and very old, and people with preexisting respiratory disease and other ill health, are more at risk.[33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_fuel#cite_note-33)


You have obviously never lived by heavy industrial factories or refineries. Why do you think your car has to have an omission check regularly?

If CO2 was all they spewed from factories and refineries you may have a point (Naw you don't since we humans can't breath high levels of CO2, or low levels for very long... science!), but fact is there are many other bi products of burning fossil fuels.

Science-
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071022151535.htm

Science-
Fossil Fuel Combustion Waste | Special Wastes | Wastes | US EPA (http://www.epa.gov/osw/nonhaz/industrial/special/fossil/)

More science-
Fossil fuel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_fuel)



You have obviously never lived by heavy industrial factories or refineries. Why do you think your car has to have an omission check regularly?

For the 9727th time, no one thinks throwing trash in the air is a good thing. Now address the rest of my post.

P.S. I also said, "I don't like smog any more than the next guy," so what was the point of your post?

Lots more science to be learned and applied better.

I guess all this snow and bitter cold weather is because its gotten so warm out?

Why is it odd to think the Earth would compensate for cleaning up our filth and restore balance for the life it supports? Adapt or die.

Lots more science to be learned and applied better.

Not if they shut down the debate.

Hello again, Steve:

CO2 is not trash, plants need it.Water isn't trash either, fish need it. But, if YOU breath it, it'll KILL you.

Besides, we should be worried about what's good for US, not the trees. Since when did you become a treehugger?

excon

Nothing shuts down debate between opposite believers. Not even calling each others names. It still rages on.

In other words, you're ok with all the lies, hypocrisy, thuggery, cronyism etc. by the climate change crowd? And I like trees because they give me shade, take in CO2, produce oxygen and they're a damn sight prettier than pavement.

we are looking at this CO2 thing all wrong, we want to go and live on Mars, Mars has a thin CO2 atmosphere; what could be more logical than we learn to live in a CO2 atmosphere right here on Earth before we go?

Nothing shuts down debate between opposite believers. Not even calling each others names. It still rages on.

As I've noted many times now, only one side is trying to silence the other and saying the debate is over, much more insidious than name calling.

we are looking at this CO2 thing all wrong, we want to go and live on Mars, Mars has a thin CO2 atmosphere; what could be more logical than we learn to live in a CO2 atmosphere right here on Earth before we go?

Who's this we? It's much too cold and barren for me, the trip is too long and there's a fatwa against going to Mars (http://www.examiner.com/article/mars-fatwa-muslim-order-not-to-travel-to-mars-islam-cannot-justify-space-trip). But a great point for the true believers, they should get used to it.

Hello smoothy:


I guess all this snow and bitter cold weather is because its gotten so warm out?Church is NOT a good place to learn your science.

excon

It might be a good place to hide from the extreme weather though.

Who's this we? It's much too cold and barren for me, the trip is too long and there's a fatwa against going to Mars (http://www.examiner.com/article/mars-fatwa-muslim-order-not-to-travel-to-mars-islam-cannot-justify-space-trip). But a great point for the true believers, they should get used to it.

We could look at it as the royal we, there being more than one of us, or the human race, or interested parties. You stay home by all means, someone has to use up the CO2 and since when were you concerned about what misguided muslims think? As to the cold and barren landscape what an opportunity to use our irrigation skills to transform the place.

You see the practicalities don't seem to matter to those who are bored with same old Earth

More common sense from the Supreme court smacking down the epa ENVIRONAZIS.


Supreme Court limits EPA global warming rulesPublished June 23, 2014 FoxNews.com (http://www.foxnews.com/)




The Supreme Court delivered a setback to the Environmental Protection Agency on Monday, placing limits on the sole Obama administration program already in place to deal with power plant and factory emissions of gases blamed for global warming.
The decision does not affect recent and highly controversial EPA proposals to set the first-ever national standards for new and existing power plants. One recent proposal would aim for a 30 percent emissions reduction by 2030.

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Rather, at issue was a requirement that companies expanding industrial facilities or building new ones that would increase overall pollution must evaluate ways to reduce carbon emissions. The justices said Monday that the EPA lacks authority in some cases to force companies to do so.
However, the ruling could nevertheless be used to challenge other aspects of the EPA's effort to deal with global warming.
The rule in question applies when a company needs a permit to expand facilities or build new ones that would increase overall pollution.
Under Monday's ruling, EPA can continue to require permits for greenhouse gas emissions for those facilities that already have to obtain permits because they emit other pollutants that EPA has long regulated. But Justice Antonin Scalia, writing for the court's conservatives in the part of the ruling in which the justices split 5-4, said EPA could not require a permit solely on the basis of greenhouse gas emissions.
The program at issue is the first piece of EPA's attempt to reduce carbon output from large sources of pollution.
The utility industry, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and 13 states led by Texas asked the court to rule that the EPA overstepped its authority by trying to regulate greenhouse gas emissions through the permitting program. The administration failed to get climate change legislation through Congress.
The outcome does preserve EPA's authority over facilities that already emit pollutants that the agency regulates other than greenhouse gases.
Scalia, writing for the court, said "EPA is getting almost everything it wanted in this case." Scalia said the agency wanted to regulate 86 percent of all greenhouse gases emitted from plants nationwide. The agency will be able to regulate 83 percent of the emissions under the ruling, Scalia said.
EPA said that, as of late March, 166 permits have been issued by state and federal regulators since 2011.
Permits have been issued to power plants, but also to plants that produce chemicals, cement, iron and steel, fertilizer, ceramics and ethanol. Oil refineries and municipal landfills also have obtained greenhouse gas permits since 2011, EPA said.
The Associated Press contributed to this report.



Supreme Court limits EPA global warming rules | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/06/23/supreme-court-limits-epa-global-warming-rules/)

EPA could not require a permit solely on the basis of greenhouse gas emissions.

They can and will have increased requirements for disposal and of waste and by products also.

http://www.epa.gov/epawaste/nonhaz/municipal/index.htm


Scalia, writing for the court, said "EPA is getting almost everything it wanted in this case." Scalia said the agency wanted to regulate 86 percent of all greenhouse gases emitted from plants nationwide. The agency will be able to regulate 83 percent of the emissions under the ruling, Scalia said.

Some set back huh!

some victory .... another affirmation from SCOTUS of the EPA's 'mandate' to regulate C02 as a pollutant.
This comes on the wake of more evidence that the whole global warming fraud was built on a foundation of outright lies and intentionally distorted data .
Steven Goddard has demonstrated that NOAA and NASA have distorted graphs to make the claim of warming when in fact ,the warmest recent period was in the 1930s . We have been getting steadily cooler since .
https://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/2014/06/23/noaa-and-nasa-data-alterations-are-global/
https://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/2014/06/23/summers-used-to-be-much-hotter-in-the-us-2/

Step in the right direction by the SCOTUS... and don't doubt there will be many more to follow, as there should be. Its an out of control agency with no accountability that really should be shut down. THey have been out of control for far too long.

Who needs clean air and clean water?

a somewhat rhetorical question Tal it seems the Chinese have been on a path to prove we don't aided and abetted by those in other countries who want to shut down polluting industries

Who needs clean air and clean water?

Except that's not what they are doing... for far too long they have been forcing without any check or ballances.. a radical extremist partisan political agenda on the American people devoid of any Control what-so-ever by elected lawmakers.

Who needs clean air and
clean water? irrelevant bumper sticker slogan that doesn't address the fact that the house of cards that the enviro-wackos built their case on has a foundation fraud and lies.

Well that's a nice way to have a debate spewing right wing anti government clap trap without specifics or sources to make your point.

I already provided the links that show that NOAA and NASA manipulated the data .

They still haven't fully recovered from the Valdez disaster. Been to the gulf lately? What happened to the shrimp industry?

Exactly like the Liberals side of this argument... right?

Is this a debate?, I thought the science was settled?

Let's face it, the environmentalists have always been on the spearpoint of liberal politics, whereelse do the wacho's have to go? but the implementation of change, now there is a whole different debate, personally why do we have to change to industries just as polluting in the manufacturing stages to bring about some mythical change in atmospheric behaviour at great cost to the poor

It's a liberal idea to have companies actually clean up their messes? That's messed up Smoothy.

yes by all means have clean processes and handle waste properly

The canard in the argument is equating C02 as a pollutant . As the links I provided show ,prior to 2000, NASA showed U.S. temperatures cooling since the 1930s, and 1934 much warmer than 1938 .Then, right after 2000, NASA and NOAA manipulated the data ,making the past much colder and the present much warmer. Scalia had the opportunity to roll back this executive power grab . Instead ,by his own admission ,the EPA and the emperor get 83% of the 87% regulatory control of "green house gases " they wanted

What you have is yet another official version of the edited data for Alice Springs. This would be the second version of the "hide the decline" graph that I have seen to date. They are different. Have you the data that was actually altered? The article gives no way of tracing the source of this information.

For all we no the author may have taken a leaf out of the Global Warming Handbook and simply done something like inverted the origin data and called it evidence of hiding the decline.

Man made CO2 as a bi-product of burning fossil fuel IS a pollutant and contains many other pollutants with it. It can kill humans in high concentrations and adversely affects long term, and short term health.

Man made oil spills destroy animals, fish, and birds, and destroy the affected ecosystems for YEARS, and DECADES.

All of this is simple scientific FACTS. You want more? Explain all these sink holes popping up in urban cities. Explain earthquakes around urban populations where they are fracking around fault lines. Dumb greedy humans. What happens to old oil pipelines left buried in the ground?

Go ahead ignore science because you are too busy scheming on the next dollar and selling poison to the rest of the world.

Tom said it right the cunard of CO2 as a pollutant, a lie of gigantic proportions, just as Global Warming was an gigantic lie of Maggie Thatcher. We don't ignore science, Tal, but computer models arn't science, they are pseudo science. Taking readings in heat polluted sites or near volcanos is not science. We have been over this ground, climate change has been happening for eons and there is nothing we can do about it. Stop all CO2 emissions and it will still happen and what will they blame then? High concentrations of CO2 are far beyond atmospheric CO2, so suggesting it is going to kill us is absolute nonsense.

You want to know about sink holes, mining, over population and building in inappropriate sites, failure to supervise building projects

lol Texas has 10,000 injection wells,and some have been in use since the 1930s.But NOW they are causing earthquakes ?
NBC news reports otherwise

In more than 90 years of monitoring, human activity has been shown to trigger only 154 quakes, most of them moderate or small, and only 60 of them in the United States. That's compared to a global average of about 14,450 earthquakes of magnitude 4.0 or greater every year, said the report, released Friday.Most of those are caused by gas and oil drilling the conventional way, damming rivers, deep injections of wastewater and purposeful flooding.
Only two worldwide instances of shaking — a magnitude 2.8 tremor in Oklahoma and a 2.3 magnitude shaking in England— can be attributed to hydraulic fracturing, a specific method of extracting gas by injection of fluids sometimes called "fracking," the report said. Both were last year.

Report: No high risk of quakes from 'fracking' - US news - Environment | NBC News (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/47835612/ns/us_news-environment/t/report-dont-worry-much-about-quakes-fracking/)

What you are missing is that horizontal drilling is more effecient and leaves less of a mark on the landscape...not more .

Thank God neither of you runs a darn thing.

I think the Democrat party if they want to be credible... will set an example and reduce their own methane and CO2 emissions to zero first. If that works in a few years... the rest of us will consider other steps.

So now there are republican emissions, and democratic emissions? That's pretty loony even by your standards.

THe fanatic left is pushing this fallicy... Its clear they won't practice what they preach. Like Al Gore... everyone else needs to be living in caves and riding horses, except him.


If they really believe this horse manure... lets see them practice what they preach themselves BEFORE they expect everyone else to do it... and not the other way around

what's loony is thinking you can power a modern economy with windmills and solar panels .

46183

CO2 as a pollutant is a marketing ploy and nothing more.


According to the journal Science, termites alone emit ten times more carbon dioxide than all the factories and automobiles in the world.

More Evidence CO2 is Not The Problem: Termites Emit Ten Times More CO2 Than Humans (http://preventdisease.com/news/10/071110_terminte_co2.shtml)

http://ts4.mm.bing.net/th?&id=HN.608044468819593866&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0

and who do you think is mentally challenged Tal, you seem to be like all the climate change wacho's you think anyone who doesn't agree with you is mentally deficient, however having made a study of the history and arguments I have come to the conclusion there is more deceit than fact being brought forward to justify massive investment in costly renewable projects. In my own country, the massive investment in Solar has succeeded in stopping the building of new base load power stations but has increased electricity costs 100% in the last decade. I ask you, who benefits from such policies? The Chinese manufacturers of solar cells? the poor who pay more for energy?

Al Gore has come out of a long hibernation to stick his beak in where it isn't wanted and guess what he is saying, yes, but not now to an emissions trading scheme, run that by me again, Al Gore is going soft on an ETS

Clive Palmer will help axe carbon tax but courts Al Gore in push for ETS - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-25/palmer-will-help-axe-carbon-tax-but-courts-gore-in-push-for-ets/5549938)

so, of course, it is the old, much vaunted, US line, when everyoneelse does it, but why has this has been, wannabe, poked his nose into our politics, getting a photo op in the great hall of parliament? Did some one sell him a PUP?

here we are happily debating what to do about the irregularities of a system said to be caused by human intervention when another branch of science tells us this system should not exist anyway

What is the point? The scientists at the Hadron Collider have just disappeared up their own fundamental oriface or the scientific equivalent of it and if you follow a logical conclusion from that all efforts are futile. If you are a figment of someone's imagination it is no wonder that you cannot grasp the simple truth of climate change, it cannot be happening becuase it isn't there


It's okay. Nothing really matters. We don't actually
exist, anyway. Or so the Higgs Boson particle suggests | News.com.au

we are all doomed
What's going on with the sun? Scientists puzzled by oddities in sunspot cycle. | Alaska Dispatch (http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/20140603/whats-going-sun-scientists-puzzled-oddities-sunspot-cycle)

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!! The lunatic fring left will decide its because we have been sucking too many solar rays out of the sky with solar cells and make them illegal, because they will believe they can influence the sun too.

The Chairman of the Largest Private Company in America Just Told the 1 Percent to Worry About Climate Change | The Nation (http://www.thenation.com/article/180420/chairman-largest-private-company-america-just-told-1-percent-worry-about-climate-chan?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=email_nation&utm_campaign=Email%20Nation%20%28NEW%29%20-%20Headline%20Nation%20Feed%2020140626&newsletter=email_nation#)

Turns out there are a few Republicans who want to do something about climate change | Grist (http://grist.org/news/turns-out-there-are-a-few-republicans-who-want-to-do-something-about-climate-change/)


Here's a helpful reminder that not all Republicans oppose climate action. Former EPA administrators who served under Republican presidents Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, and George Bush I and II spoke out on Wednesday in support of federal efforts to regulate CO2 emissions from power plants. They appeared at a Senate hearing organized by Democrats to discuss EPA's recently proposed power-plant rules.

The lunatic fringe left will decide its because we have been sucking too many solar rays out of the sky with solar cells and make them illegal, because they will believe they can influence the sun too.

What will they do in a solar minimum when the sun don't shine, perhaps it is that our sun is further along in its life cycle thatn we have been led to believe

Love it ;now Tal is carrying water for a multinational corporatist who's company has many lobbyist roaming the halls of Capitol Hill . The truth is that Page knows that if there is warming ,man made or not ,that the agricultural belt will just shift north and Cargill will carry on.

Gotta love the liberal logic . Change the climate of the entire world on our own? No problem!Build a fence and secure our borders? Impossible!

Love it . The truth is that Page knows that if there is warming ,man made or not ,that the agricultural belt will just shift north and Cargill will carry on.

Now that's a strange remark because down here south of the equater we are expecting the northern agricultural zone to become a food bowl and you think your southern agricultural zone will become more arid, I'm not sure exactly how that works, deserts git bigger and there is more rain somewhere. I think it's an ill wind that doesn't blow someone some good and that goes for climate change too

So the repubs of past administrations are part of the liberal plot? The nerve of those RINO'S!

No It's just that consensus you have been searching for

So the repubs of past administrations are part of the liberal plot? The nerve of those RINO'S
uh yeah . Christie Witless is a perfect example of that . Except for Reagan ,all the Repub Presidents that these administrators worked for were /are perfectly happy with big government (Nixon being the worse. He's the one that created the EPA in the 1st place ) .

You live so much in history, as though nothing good has happened in the last thirty years

Reagan's term was good .

yes but beyond that.....WHAT? I can hear a song in the background, it's getting loader.....memories, memories

NOAA Reinstates July 1936 As Hottest Month On Record | The Daily Caller (http://dailycaller.com/2014/06/30/noaa-quietly-reinstates-july-1936-as-the-hottest-month-on-record/)

Oops, BUSTED!!

Crude Oil Spill Closes Highway At Patoka, Illinois « CBS St. Louis (http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2014/06/29/crude-oil-spill-closes-highway-at-patoka-illinois/)

BP Wants To Stop Paying Damages For Gulf Spill While Lawyer Is Investigated For Misconduct (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/bp-wants-to-stop-paying-damages-for-gulf-spill-while-lawyer-is-investigated-for-misconduct)

Shouldn't those links go on the thread about the oil pipeline, Tal?

he thinks oil is about climate, as in burning it

Fight climate change by building away from sea: Rupert Murdoch (http://www.smh.com.au/national/fight-climate-change-by-building-away-from-sea-rupert-murdoch-20140713-zt66s.html)

Rupert Murdoch proposes a more pragmatic approach to climate change, don't build on the beach. He suggests what we all know, taking on a more expensive energy regime is madness since we really cannot make that difference we are looking for. Now I know we are going to get howls of throwing garbage in the air, but reality says we know it is coming so do positive things to mitigate the effects and windmills arn't the answer. So this attitude actually acknowledges that certain parts of the world are going to be lost no matter what we do and no agony aunts are going to change that

Well Clete you certainly have the right to dig in the dirt, and sell that dirt to anyone who wants to burn that dirt, and poison their air to light their houses. Have at it while the rest of us explore and develop better ideas than that. And good luck to getting rich people not to buy and build their beachfront property, or luxury hotel chains to relocate their resorts to the middle of the continent.

I don't think your politicians give a crap about what the rich guy is saying. And good luck to all those Asians who can't come to your country, but want your dirt.

The UN IPCC is now backing down from their fear mongering and saying that it's unlikely there'll be any dangerous warming in this century.

That being said ;look at the innovation between 1914 and 2000 .... Do you think there will be any less in the next century ?

Or the next decades Tom.

Do you think there will be any less in the next century ?

I think the concern is whether there will be a next century. Look I know what we are doing is unsustainable but so are our current responses, solar and wind are not viable alternatives and they are just as polluting in the production phases, it is a zero sum net gain, but why should we beggar ourselves while the rest of the world plays games. We are already reducing our CO2 way beyond targets but it won't make any difference. We actually have bigger fish to fry and we are ignoring it, the soaring population is the real problem, not a degree in temperature

I figure the more we play with making new energy sources workable, the better we get at it. We do nothing, then we are stuck on fossil fuel. Why be stuck?

Crawl back in your cave if you are't up to the challenge of evolving and getting better. I'm surprised you bother with shoes with that kind of pessimism.

I only wear shoes half the day tal in those times I don't want anything squishy between my toes. I don't live in a cave, not enough caves to go around which is the point, isn't it? you see that getting all over emotive and making stupid comments does nothing to address the real problem, back when I was born, when the Earth had a population of three billion, we were a long way from this climate problem, wasn't a concern, but the emissions exist because of population. it is rediculous to be providing a solution which costs up to four times as much with no sum gain. It is a pipe dream to think that all of humanity is going to have its energy supplied by alternative energy. I heard the other day fusion is back on the agenda, what a crock, inventing something like that to solve a simple problem. It could all be solved in a century with population control

The future humanity faces is not one of overpopulation, but of depopulation. Human population will peak by 2050 ;if not before . The population of the world will begin to plummet in a little over four decades. Between 2040 and 2050, the world’s population will decrease by about 85 million. World population will decrease by roughly 25 percent each successive generation after .

really tom what makes you think that, a few million every generation? there is no plan, and if you think this is the result of poor food supply, war will escalate any numbers. There could be a pandemic these have reduced population from 25 to 50% in a short time, ebola is out of control in Africa right now and your own idiots are experiementing with live anthrax. Anyway we don't have a hundred years or a millenium. 25% a generation, so extinction in thirty generations by your theory. Do the math.

I'd back the abo their technology allowed them to survive isolated for forty thousand years so we win afterall

And your solution for population control would be what?

Start with segregation and enforced birth control until 25 years of age and a limit on procreation say no more than two children. It puts the abortion industry out of business and introduces some sense into the process but more would be needed, we need a complete change in the moral fabric of the society