Hello. I wanted to get everyone's opinion about teaching the Bible in public school.

I just received the April 2nd issue of Time Magazine and there is an article about offering an elective class centered around the Bible. The article listed some pretty interesting information about the Bible - such as: it has never left the top seller's list, it is the most translated book ever. And did you know, that Shakespeare quoted the bible over 1300 times in his work. And it is thought to be one of the best books ever written.

Some will say that the decision on God is up to their child - "let them decide" but how can they if this is never introduced as an option?

What are you thoughts? Would you object if your child chose to take this class? If so, Why? Do you think that the Bible should be in schools?
If you are outside of the USA, what are the "rules" in your country for Church and State?

Personally, I think this was a thought provoking topic - I hope you agree!

Well yes I think that someone should be able to learn about the Bible if they wish as long as it is not forced for them to learn.

Children don't do much religion in most schools and having te opertunity there would bb a good thing

I believe teaching a Bible class in a public school is a great idea. There are philosophy classes taught that are mandatory! So you encounter the people who would say no one is going to force their child to read the Bible - make the course an elective. So, who is qualified to teach this course?

It should be an elective. Keep the separation of religion and state.

So, who is qualified to teach this course?

The teacher that the article mentions (a H.S. teacher in Texas) is just that a H.S. Teacher.
Judging from the article, she puts it out there and then as a class they discuss the meaning.
I think if you got a, say, catholic priest or a baptist preacher - you would fall into a trap of they are teaching just the catholic or baptist take on the bible. I do think that you would need to get someone that has an understanding of the Bible to make the class worthwhile.
I would love to know the stats on school violence before the Bible was taken out of school as opposed to now. Is there a difference? Or with the media - the information is just more available?

Personally, I think this step is a great one. I believe that the Bible is our guide book on how to live.

Offering the Bible in school does open a door to offering other religious/cultural classes - Muslim, Buddhist, etc.. What do you think about having those classes available in school?

Why not have an introduction to religion where all religions get equal time? That way children can be exposed to the diversity that is out there.

I will honestly say that I am not versed in what other religions believe. I know what I believe. How much time would it take to completely study each religion? To get a good understanding?
The Bible alone as 66 books - all very indepth. I would like to see electives deticated to just the Bible and then if others become available - then there are more options.

Just an overview of each is enough. To do any in-depth study of all the bible's books one should send their child to bible school not public school.

When I was in high school, there was a state mandatory class called, "Religons of the World". We even had to take that, being in a Catholic high school. One of our parish priests taught the class, but he balanced it out with Friday field trips to the city's churches and visiting with the respective pastors of each denomination. Easy to do when you live in a small city of 7500 people. I don't know how the public school system taught the class but I know who taught it - the instructor who also taught Problems of Democracy, Sociology, and World History.

If you make a class on the study of The Bible an elective - you would not have to offer all the other religion's Bibles for study. You are not forcing anyone to take this elective, therefore you are not forcing a way of thought onto the student.

Before I had a child, I was sure that when that day came and it was time to send her to school - it would be to a private christian school. She is now in 1st grade at a public school. We live in a really small town with a brand new school and there really isn't good christian schools available. I could send her to catholic school - but we aren't catholic.
She has always been taught to say her blessing before she eats - so at lunch she would do so - until one of the teachers told her she couldn't. We were outraged. But, to solve the problem and not cause some big scene - we told her to just say it in her head.
But, shouldn't she be allowed, under her 1st amendment rights to say the blessing if she so chooses?
We send her to church on Wednesday nights and on Sunday mornings to get her "dose" of the bible from people who truly know how to teach it. And for some kids, that is all they get. Is it enough? Should that be a part of daily life?

Yes, your daughter has her first amendment rights to say grace. If she were Muslim, she would have her rights. If she were an athesist, she would have her rights. Call or write your Attorney General's office about this. If you get nowhere, there is always the ACLU.

I'm not american so the 1st amendment means nothing to me. As for something being part of your daily life that's up to you, outside of school. Remember that public school funds come from taxpayers of all religions not just christians.

Good Point - Do you know that in the states - over 68% of the population say they are Christian. So, does majority win?

That majority is dwindling (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm), it should not win since it's not about majority either.

I went to a Roman Catholic Primary and Secondary school, and as such I was taught Religious Education from a very early age.

In Secondary school these lessons (much like shygrneyzs' post) were split up between different religions, I found this an amazing insight into both my own and other people's belief systems.

I think that most schools should teach religion on a whole, whether it is a religious school or not, then maybe the world would have the little bit more tolerance it needs!

BTW, the last bits of the Bible (where the 4 horsemen come and the world ends!) is one of the best things ever written! Kicks Harry Potter's bespectacled a$$ any day!

That majority is [URL="http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm"]dwindling[/URL.

Why do you think that the numbers are dwindling?

A lot of people do not have religion in their daily lives - yet when a crisis happens - the first thing they ask is "Where was God?" Why is that?

"then maybe the world would have the little bit more tolerance it needs!"

Sometimes I think the world is to tolerant. We are all so concerned with being politically correct - not to upset the next guy, that I think we forget to stand up for what we believe in. Would anyone agree?

Why do you think that the numbers are dwindling? I'm sure there are many reasons, not just one. Perhaps people are thinking for themselves, many such as myself find it very divisive.


Alot of people do not have religion in their daily lives - yet when a crisis happens - the first thing they ask is "Where was God?" Why is that?Actually I don't believe that happens at all. It's similar to believers praying for a sick person and that person dies, where was God then?

Sometimes I think the world is to tolerant. We are all so concerned with being politically correct - not to upset the next guy, that I think we forget to stand up for what we believe in. Would anyone agree?

I don't think that that's really tolerance, I just think that's just fearing the repercussions of speaking out and I think that this actually breeds intolerance.

Just to explain that point, if I don't like something that someone is doing, but I'm told I have to sit there and take it regardless, it's going to make me dislike it even more!

Whereas going back to my previous point, if I'm told WHY someone is doing something I don't like, I may understand it a bit more and tolerate it a little better!

Good Point - Do you know that in the states - over 68% of the population say they are Christian. So, does majority win?
Our government is set up to protect the minority from the majority. Wait till your in the minorority on something and you might learn to value that.

My take is teach 1 teach all -- you want your god is our schools lets teach all faiths - Christianity /Muslim/ Judaism/ Hinduism/ wiccan /devil worship / non believers point of view / etc, and lets the kids pick which to follow -- how's that suit you? --

but I guess we will have to drop a few other courses like math to give them time for this.. -- Savage

but I guess we will have to drop a few other courses like math to give them time for this.. -- Savage

I don't think we would have to drop anything. The courses discussed are possibly being offered as electives. Like Gym or Law, etc. So, can we not have both?
Are the other religions pushing to put in schools? And it really isn't religion going into school - it a study on the Bible - not one faiths take on it.

I think if a Bible study course does make it to our schools then the other religions will want equality. Which is fine. I think offering something like this produces a more educated person. And would teaching something that can help you live your life as a better person really be that bad? I mean, sure you're a whiz at math, but you suck as a human? I think I would rather be a better person any day.

To quote the article - To compare Shakespeare (which is readily available in H.S. English class) and the Bible
1) Beauty of Language - Shakespeare by a nose
2) Depth of subject matter - Toss up
3) Breadth of subject matter - The Bible
4) Numbers Published, translated, etc. - The Bible
5) Number of people martyred for - The Bible
6) Number of wars attributed to - The Bible
7) Solace and hope provided to billions - The Bible

All of these things, shouldn't our youth know why people are willing to die for what is written in this book? Why it has never left the best seller list? This is a big part of history -so why should it be left out of study?

I mean, sure your a whiz at math, but you suck as a human? I think I would rather be a better person any day. Studying the bible (or any religious text) does not make one a better person.

I guess, for me, the Bible is a guide book. Our instruction book on how to live. Every question we have about life and how to live in answered in the Bible.

Hello. I wanted to get everyone's opinion about teaching the Bible in public school.

I just received the April 2nd issue of Time Magazine and there is an article about offering an elective class centered around the Bible. The article listed some pretty interesting information about the Bible - such as: it has never left the top seller's list, it is the most translated book ever. And did you know, that Shakespeare quoted the bible over 1300 times in his work. And it is thought to be one of the best books ever written.

Some will say that the decision on God is up to their child - "let them decide" but how can they if this is never introduced as an option?

What are you thoughts? Would you object if your child chose to take this class? If so, Why? Do you think that the Bible should be in schools?
If you are outside of the USA, what are the "rules" in your country for Church and State?

Personally, I think this was a thought provoking topic - I hope you agree!
Well, I believe that as long as its not forcing anyone, its OK. I myself am not a religious person but the subject of religion interests me very much and that anyone who is a religious person should have the right to learn about it. Although I think that its wrong that any other religion should be excluded.

I guess when I think of religion - I think about all the different types. Baptist, methodist, Catholic, Etc..
Each of these use the Bible - but each has a different take on it.
The potential class study that prompted this question would study the bible - not the separate religions.
And, I too, think that it would be wrong to exclude any other group.

I guess when I think of religion - I think about all the different types. Baptist, methodist, Catholic, Etc..
Each of these use the Bible - but each has a different take on it.
The potential class study that prompted this question would study the bible - not the seperate religions.
And, I too, think that it would be wrong to exclude any other group.
And right there is the problem -- you did not mention any religion other than those based on YOUR book. You just basically refused to acknowledge all the other religions that are out there.

That is why religion needs to stay out of schools. -- Savage

I don't think we would have to drop anything. The courses discussed are possibly being offered as electives. Like Gym or Law, etc. So, can we not have both?
Are the other religions pushing to put in schools? And it really isn't religion going into school - it a study on the Bible - not one faiths take on it.

I think if a Bible study course does make it to our schools then the other religions will want equality. Which is fine. I think offering something like this produces a more educated person. And would teaching something that can help you live your life as a better person really be that bad? I mean, sure your a whiz at math, but you suck as a human? I think I would rather be a better person any day.

To quote the article - To compare Shakespeare (which is readily available in H.S. English class) and the Bible
1) Beauty of Language - Shakespeare by a nose
2) Depth of subject matter - Toss up
3) Breadth of subject matter - The Bible
4) Numbers Published, translated, etc. - The Bible
5) Number of people martyred for - The Bible
6) Number of wars attributed to - The Bible
7) Solace and hope provided to billions - The Bible

All of these things, shouldn't our youth know why people are willing to die for what is written in this book? Why it has never left the best seller list? This is a big part of history -so why should it be left out of study?

I like your points here. The world we live in has been impacted so profoundly because of the Bible. How could there not be a class on it. I'm not saying teach doctrines from the Bible, just study its origins, authors, its influence world history, and so forth.

And right there is the problem -- you did not mention any religion other than those based on YOUR book. You just basically refused to acknowledge all the other religions that are out there.

Actually, I wasn't refusing to acknowledge anything or anyone. I listed 3 off the top of my head (and the churches that are in my town) just to make a point.

And, quite frankly, I AM PROUD OF "MY" BOOK!

Good Point - Do you know that in the states - over 68% of the population say they are Christian. So, does majority win?Hello Now:

No, the majority doesn't win - not in this country anyway.

Each one of us has rights granted under the Constitution. That's each ONE as in YOU, an individual. Even if ALL the rest of the people, and I mean ALL 3 million of them (a majority for sure), voted to remove your rights, they couldn't.

And, that's the way it should be.

excon

DUKE-OF-URL (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/../members/duke-of-url.html) disagrees: this socity was founded abased on Chrisrian beleifs
So many problems with your comment:
1. too many misspellings to mention - stay in school
2. read up on the use of the commenting/reputation system in use here
3. my society was absolutely not based on 'chrisian' values, maybe your close circle of friends but not society in general not in the US nor in Canada.

Please, Correct me if I am wrong - And I am sure you guys will.
Wasn't the US founded by those fleeing the Catholic Church? They wanted the right to choose their religion?

The puritans came here to get away from the church of England and I am sure individuals came here due to religion on their own -- but most of the settlers came for the top god -- money -- Savage

Well they were fleeing the Church of England, which is technically Catholic, but not to be confused with the Roman Catholic (PROPER Catholics! Lol!) Church!

I don't think it should be taught in schools anymore, there is too much diversity we can't please everyone! I believe in God. I would love for my beliefs to be taught in school. Only because they might teach something I forgot about or misunderstand. There are too many people that don't believe what I believe, so we are down to whether to have a class about every religion or none! I choose none, most people that are religious take care of their beliefs with their own church and family these days. I believe in the separation of church and state. When they took prayer out of school, we should have prayed twice as hard at home and let other people with different beliefs be around all of us with our beliefs without feeling like they are different in a bad way. Some people just make people feel like they are wrong when they are just a little different than them! I have never really spoken or thought about this subject for more than this small amount of time but the more I Write down the more I want to keep changing my answer. I am going to quit here and think about it longer. Who knows I might not agree with what I said in just a few minutes. Now I am completely confusing myself. Goodbye for now!

I am in the uk and my daughter goes to a state school that is not linked to a church, but they do learn about the bible and christianity there. I do have issues with it as it is taught as fact at her school whether intentionally or not, my daughter perceives it as fact. I on the other hand am atheist, so try to get her to question the faith (she is only five!) I have always let my kids make up their own minds about religion, so I don't tell her it is all a load of poppycock, I just ask her to consider things a bit more. I have also tried to give her other opinions on life, through friends who are pagan, and we visit a buddhist temple from time to time, and school also teach the children the basics of hindu, muslim and sikh religions (though not in the same detail as christianity).

I think religion should not be taught as fact, I have no issue with the teaching about the bible, but it should be treated as any other book is, the works of shakespeare are not treated as an autentic look at life in the era, they are taught as stories and plays. I think the same principle should be applied to the teaching of religion. Teach about it, don't preach it, don't assume it is the truth. Let the kids make up their own minds on the sunject.

That's just my opinion!

Although I think it would be a good thing. I don't think the Bible should be taught in public school.

1] public = tax dollars = government. 1st Amendment ".. no establishment of religion..."

2] How and who would teach the Bible? There are so many Christian denominations that differ on various doctrinal issues.

3] The Bible can be taught by parent[s], relatives, going to Church, Sunday school etc..
I would not depend on public school to teach my children about God and Christian
values.

Some will say that the decision on God is up to their child - "let them decide" but how can they if this is never introduced as an option?


According to the Bible a parent has a responsibility for providing guidance in religious matters. If a parent leaves it up to the child he is being negligent.

I see nothing wrong with it. Long as its optional... people are not forced to do it. They should be able to choose.

I am in the uk and my daughter goes to a state school that is not linked to a church, but they do learn about the bible and christianity there. I do have issues with it as it is taught as fact at her school whether intentionally or not, my daughter perceives it as fact. I on the other hand am atheist, so try to get her to question the faith (she is only five!) I have always let my kids make up their own minds about religion, so I dont tell her it is all a load of poppycock, I just ask her to consider things a bit more. I have also tried to give her other opinions on life, through friends who are pagan, and we visit a buddhist temple from time to time, and school also teach the children the basics of hindu, muslim and sikh religions (though not in the same detail as christianity).

I think religion should not be taught as fact, I have no issue with the teaching about the bible, but it should be treated as any other book is, the works of shakespeare are not treated as an autentic look at life in the era, they are taught as stories and plays. I think the same principle should be applied to the teaching of religion. Teach about it, dont preach it, dont assume it is the truth. Let the kids make up their own minds on the sunject.

Thats just my opinion!

I would be very surprised to learn that the curriculum for religious education in UK schools taught anything as 'fact' except the elements of each religion and what they believe in certain areas. I have been an active participant on working parties and standing conferences for establishing such curriculum in local authories in the UK and at no time was one religion given ascendency over any other faith. Religious education operates at a deliberate, calculated , and distinct level from religious indoctrination, and presumably it is indoctrination rather than education that arouses your concern as a parent.

The UK is a good example of a multi-ethnic and multi-faith society that works very well. It is in order to build bridges of understanding between faiths and faith based communities that RE is brought to bear. It is first, foremost, and last, to provide information about what each of the major faiths believe, and to explain some of their practices, especially those that are not well known. Indoctrination in a particular faith or in none, as in your case, belongs to the home, chapel, synagogue, mosque, etc.

M:)RGANITE

Squiffy
You have to realize that Religion, whether it be Christianity, Hindi, Buddhism, Seik, or Baha'i, is a fact and must be taught as a fact. I am even beginning to believe that because of the way that many people espouse Atheism it should almost be treated as a religion. (Italics just my own opinion)

Morganite
The curriculum you describe in the UK sounds great. If we had something like it in the US real tolerance, instead of politically correctness, might break out.

Speaking to the OP:
A class on the Bible (as an elective and only as an elective) would probably be a good thing. As would a class on the Koran under the same conditions.

One of the problems going on in this nation right now is the fact that educators (in general) seem to have really taken the "separation of church and state" to only apply to Christianity and "in the interest of diversity" started introducing Wicca and Islam etc. to the curriculum. This tends to send the message that there is something wrong with Christianity. If diversity is really the issue why not quit excluding the belief of a large portion of our population?

It is taught in such a way that my daughter, who is five, believes every word that is said about the bible and jesus as fact. As I said whether they intend it to be taught as fact I don't know, but the way they are teaching it, at least in my daughters school, the kids are seeing it as being as true as anything else, as it is their teacher teaching it. Not enough emphasis is put on it being one theory, amongst many, or that not everyone believes in it! Religious beliefs are a fact, in that people believe in them, and so they exist, but my problem lies in it being taught to children as the truth, without any question. I love that my daughter learns about religions, it is a huge part of most peoples lives, and so society as a whole, I don't love that she is being taught to believe in it blindly and not being empowered at school to make her own decisions on what religion she wants to accept! There are very many after all!

You have to realize that Religion, whether it be Christianity, Hindi, Buddhism, Seik, or Baha'i, is a fact and must be taught as a fact.
It's not a fact, it's a faith.



I am even beginning to believe that because of the way that many people espouse Atheism it should almost be treated as a religion. (Italics just my own opinion)Since atheism is defined as the absence of religion that would be quite ironic. There is indeed a rise in atheism/agnoticism but it isn't harming anyone.



One of the problems going on in this nation right now is the fact that educators (in general) seem to have really taken the "separation of church and state" to only apply to Christianity and "in the interest of diversity" started introducing Wicca and Islam etc. to the curriculum. This tends to send the message that there is something wrong with Christianity. Does adding the teaching of jazz music in addition to classical music send the message that there is something wrong with classical music? Of course not. Your argument is bourne of paranoia.

[Does adding the teaching of jazz music in addition to classical music send the message that there is something wrong with classical music? Of course not. Your argument is bourne of paranoia.[/quote]

If children are told that they can not bring classical music to the school and they can not talk about classical music at school as is being done in many places with Christianity it just might possibly tend to send that message.

Just to answer the other thing about school violence since they took out the Bible from schools and the long story of taking prayer and the pledge and such... Things are much worse. In the 50s the problems were chewing gum and talking during class now look though, it's 2000 and what are the problems we face today? 1 in 3 get raped, 40% children self inflict, teen pregnancy, school shootings, drug addiction... How's separation of church and state working? And why is we have problems in court with having a Bible? What about bringing a buddha you think anyone would have a problem with that? Many do it. Read mark and you'll see where the separation was predicted and how it plays into rapture. Should God/Bible time be a part of daily life? Yes if it's going to be a lifestyle to have God in all you do, church for an hour on Wed. isn't going to do it. I'm 18 and that's all my parents ever gave me and you know I wish I could go back and change it because I went through cutting and sex and drinking, could you say that would not have happened had my parents had a daily study of the Bible everyday no but I would say it would have made a big difference on my decisions in life. What my church has always believed is that the tithe (10%) applies to not only money but rather also your time and talent. What you worship is what you spend the most time thinking of and doing is it not? 10% of time is 2 and a half hours, yeah that's a lot and I wouldn't suggest spending that time with your first grader, think of it more as weight training work your way up. I don't have a devotional or anything I just open the Bible and read a few verses and make sure I know what they mean and how God is attempting to speak to me. I would suggest if not doing anything yet with your child to do that. These days when I read I read about 20 chapters a day and record the verses that speak to me but I worked my way up. It's very important to make time now while she's young and everyday because if you don't someday she won't even pray everyday much less read the Bible or go to church. God Bless I hope that wasn't too much and it helps. My heart is overflowing with things to say :)

... 1 in 3 get raped, 40% children self inflict ...

Hell... where did you get those stats from? :confused: :eek:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metallic
... 1 in 3 get raped, 40% children self inflict...


Hell... where did you get those stats from?


90% of stats on the internet are made up. :-)

Hell ... where did you get those stats from?! :confused: :eek:Don't question these things - you must have faith.

Here is MY problem with the Bible being taught in the schools... WHO is going to teach it? I don't want just anyone teaching my child the Word! The Bible says man in his natural state cannot perceive the things of God neither can he know them. I don't want an unbeliever teaching my child anything spiritual. Likewise, I feel certain a Muslim wouldn't want ME teaching their child Islam. I'd prefer to teach my own children. Anyone agree?

Yes, agreed - you should teach your own children, not have it taught in school.

I still think that if it were taught as an elective in high school - that it would not be a bad thing. It could be taught as a whole - a study of different religions. Or they could break it down and have different classes for different beliefs.
I do agree that I would question "who is going to teach this?"

Hell ... where did you get those stats from?! :confused: :eek:

The rape figure may be slightly inflated but I seem to remember something in a recent article on rape that stated that one in four women in the US today have been or will be raped in their lifetime. (the statistic is as I recall from someone else's research, not my own)

The figure about self inflicting I don't quite understand but given the teen suicide rate, if the reference is to self mutilation as I suspect, the figure may not be all that inaccurate. (In this case I'm referring to information on teen suicide that I have seen in my annual training seminars as I recall it)

You know, I have to wonder if all of these awful things really come from the lack of religion in our schools. Does it all stem from this? I just don't know. Part of me thinks maybe.
I know that kids are growing up a lot faster than they did in the 50's. I also know that in the 50's - the Mom usually stayed home and didn't work outside of that home. Now, it is rare that you have one parent at home. So, could that contribute? Not having that parental support that we once had? The kids are left to fend for themselves? What effect does that have on our society - maybe the kids aren't taught the morals of life because the parents aren't home to teach them. We get so wrapped up in our own heads that we forget at the end of a long day that we are still parents and need to teach these kids something.

Absolutely not. Public school is not the place to have a bible course not even as an elective. It's the responsibility of christian parents to teach their children the bible at home not a government institution.

Therefore it should be illegal to teach the bible or any religious course for that matter in public schools. Public schools are government institutions. I believe in keeping religion & government as far away from each other as possible!

The purpose of sending your kids to public school is so they can get a good education that prepares them for the workforce. Furthermore how will a course on the bible prepare students for the workforce? Employers do not care about how religious or spiritual you are. That's a personal thing.

If you look at the public school system in america - it is not getting the kids ready for the workforce either. It gets them ready for standardized test that get the school more money.

And that's a whole other thread NW. :)

Hey you! I was wondering when you would chime in. :)

If you look at the public school system in america - it is not getting the kids ready for the workforce either. It gets them ready for standardized test that get the school more money.


That still does not make it appropriate to teach the bible in a government institution even as an elective.

Captive audience prayer in school should be illegal too. Jesus said that prayer is a language of the heart. When you pray you are to do it silently and go to your closet.

I don't think we are talking about captive prayer in school. I think kids should be able to choose for themselves. If they are choosing it - they want to learn it - then why not?

And go to your closet? Huh?

I don't think we are talking about captive prayer in school. I think kids should be able to choose for themselves. If they are choosing it - they want to learn it - then why not?

And go to your closet? Huh?

I have more to say on the subject of public prayer but I'll start a new thread for that.

I know a lot of people may find this odd but I think this is a really simple question.

Teaching about bible in school is fine; teaching from the bible is not. There it is plain and simple. Many of you know my religious beliefs and even with them, I won't deny that the bible is a historically significant book. So from that point it is perfectly acceptable to teach kids about the bible when it explains how certain events happened. (Like the crusades, not Adam and Eve) If you want to force prayer in the schools that is what private schools are for and I agree that if you send your kid to private school you should get a big break on your taxes for that. Public schools already allow religious clubs that operate on school ground and when I was in high school they regularly held open prayer at the flag pole in the morning.

I don't agree with forced anything. If someone forces another to pray - then who's to say what else will be forced. I have no problem with my daughter praying to God at anytime. But, if I force the kid next to her to pray then am I opening the door for someone to force my daughter to pray to, say, Budda?
I don't want that.

I believe that's what private Christian/Catholic schools are for. Personally, I'm against the bible in public school - but I'm also against public school (go figure :P). In this country where we have the freedom of religion and separation of religion & state, you have to be mindful of the fact that even though the majority may be christians, there are many who are not. Granted, there are some good stories in the bible, that I think teach good lessons/moral lessons, I do not feel it should be a text book where classes are centered around it. They have chruch for that. Or private religious schools.

I don't get why anyone would want their child to be taught the bible in school. As several have pointed out on this thread, what makes the person qualified? What if the person teaching has different interpretations than what you want to teach your kids? It makes more sense to me that if you want to have the bible taught to your kids you do it yourself, send them to bible school, or hold classes with people in your community on your own time.

For those who might argue that teaching the bible is a way to expose everyone to Christianity, that can be done with an "Origins of Religion" class, or something similar. A class which focuses on the major religions of the world, their origins, their influence in our current lives (political, cultural, etc), and the basic tenets. The bible doesn't have to be the textbook in order to expose people to Christianity, but by teaching ABOUT it, people can make their own decisions.

It should be an elective. Keep the separation of religion and state.
It should be available!
As far as separation of church and state: there isn't any. Churches and religious organizations are tax exempt. But what if a fire breaks out? Or someone gets robbed on church property? The fire department shows up. The police show up.
But our currency speaks to God. Our Pledge of Allegiance refers to God and trust:
Here's a very good link... ever heard of Red Skelton?
Pledge Of Allegiance To The Flag Of The United States Of America (http://patriotfiles.org/Pledge.htm)
(copy and paste... if you got speakers and a like mind)
This nation was founded on the freedom of religion. None included... none excluded.
If we can't learn the differences and understand them in school, the lessons will be learned elsewhere.

EMS responds to private and public property because they are servicing the community. It has nothing to do with church and state.

Tax exempt status... well, I've never understood that one, personally. I suppose it's because it's offered to ALL religions, so there's no indication of endorsement.

"Under God" was added to the pledge in 1954 by President Eisenhower, and was ruled unconstitutional in 2002.

"In God we trust" was added to our coin currency in 1864 in response to increased religious sentiment. It was added to paper money in 1957, after having been declared our "National Motto" in 1956.

We are far from a nation which has an actual separation of church and state, but there's no reason to add more fuel to the fire and give more indication of the government endorsing religion. A "Bible Studies" class in public school would indicate to many Americans the state is endorsing Christianity.

I liked what someone said a couple of posts ago - teach about the Bible - not FROM the Bible. I think people go to school to get educated. Why, then, can they not get educated on religion? Not just the Bible, but any religion? It is a huge part of our society. Yet, we are willing to send our kids out ignorant about the subject. (Yes, I can teach my child at home.)
I am not sure who would be qualified. There are people that study different religions - not just pastors - that could be qualified.

[QUOTE=jillianleab]EMS responds to private and public property because they are servicing the community. It has nothing to do with church and state.
QUOTE]
In NE Florida, where I live, the ambulance/rescue is operated by the county, paid by my taxes, and a ladder or pumper responds as support. They respond to private and public including establishments of religion, regardless of denomination or affiliation.
I'm not complaining, just telling it like it is.
I hadn't heard the phrase, "In God We Trust," was found to be unconstitutional. Nor have I seen the phrase removed from printed money. I have no problem with the phrase.

I [I]did[I] hear that this country was founded, at least partially, on the freedom of religion. It seems now we're becoming a country that represses religion. To the point where we find our forefathers ideas, thoughts and opinions to be "unconstitutional?" I tend to think when they made some of these decisions against the fear of reprisal. That's how they started this whole thing. I'm not going to subvert them!

Tessy777 asked who will teach the classes: I don't know... who selects the teachers for other classes? They, the board or "powers that be," must have guidelines to determine a teachers qualifications.

I think that kids in public schools should get bible studie. Just because you are in public school doent mean you are not any closer to god than kids in bible school.

Redtruck,
I think you missed most of the thread. Public school is paid for by all taxpayers and the government. Not all taxpayers or students are christians therefore either teach about all religions or none.

Here in Northern Virginia EMS is also operated by the county, paid for by my taxes, and mostly run by volunteers (fire and rescue, that is). I don't get what you are saying. EMS, private or public, is there to service the community. How does that have anything to do with church and state? Are you saying EMS shouldn't respond to religious institutions?

"In God We Trust" was not found unconstitutional. "Under God" in the pledge was found unconstitutional. Read my post again, that's what it says. If you find my words just too confusing, perhaps this link can help you: Pledge of Allegiance and its "under God" phrase (http://www.religioustolerance.org/nat_pled.htm)

I don't think this country represses religion at all. You are allowed to practice whatever religion you want, you just aren't allowed to inject your religion into our government in such a way that the government is endorsing it. And sorry, but finding "Under God" in the pledge unconstitutional isn't going against our forefather's ideas. Read my post again and you will see the phrase was added in the 1950's. Last I checked, Eisenhower was not a founding father.

Assume a Board did select the teacher to teach a bible class - who determines the lesson plan? What does the teacher say about the story of Adam and Eve? Some say Adam and Eve is a true story, that's how we all got here. Some say it's a story to illustrate the need to resist temptation. Which do you want your child taught? What if the school teaches the opposite of what you want taught?

Yes, they should be exposed to all religions. That's my point. If only one version is available, they won't have enough information to make intelligent choise. Most of us choose by default... our first influences are frequently our only. I'll be darned if I can tell the differences, considering the options! And it may take longer than we think to gain enough of an understanding to say, "This is IT." That concept may seem foreign to some.

jillianleab,
Our fire/EMS is paid full time, 24/7. Our police are paid and also operate 24/7.
My point on this is: there is only one 911. If someone passed out in church, our tax-paid EMS go there. If someone tries to mug the alterboy and steal the tray, the cops are called (not volenteer cops) THAT isn't separation of church and state, the way some understand it.
Now, I admit I misread your previous post (sorry)

But this digreeses from the lead question posted by NowWhat. You're splitting hairs and I don't wish argue. Either I didn't explain my point or you don't believe me.

I guess, for me, the Bible is a guide book. Our instruction book on how to live. Every question we have about life and how to live in answered in the Bible.
BIBLE : an acronym for : BASIC INSTRUCTIONS BEFORE LEAVING EARTH

CaptainRich, I don't want to argue either, but I don't see how EMS responding to citizens in the community who are in distress violates church/state. The citizens pay taxes, which is why they get services. If a church has all it's windows broken out, the police respond because it is a community building and breaking out windows is illegal. When firemen put out a burning church the government isn't endorsing any religion, it's protecting it's citizens and buildings from harm. The church has been given tax exempt status on a federal level, so EMS is still required to respond. Same with non-religious institutions which are non-profit and tax-exempt. You seem to have a very different view on church/state than most.

We have digressed; I vote if we want to continue our little topic we do it via PM. Your choice, I said what I wanted to say.

This nation was founded on the freedom of religion. None included...none excluded.
If we can't learn the differences and understand them in school, the lessons will be learned elsewhere.

Yes. But freedom of religion also means the freedom not to be a christian and not have the bible shoved down our throats if we choose we don't want any part of it. People who want to learn about the bible or christianity go to church or religious school or bible study groups. There is NO need for it to be a part of the public school system. What about the jewish kids? The musliam kids? The wiccian kids? The athetist kids? Just as everyone has the right to believe in what they feel is right for them, they should also have the right not to have things forced upon them. Learning about the differences about different peoples faiths and beliefs is one thing, and I don't think it would be a bad idea to have a class that teaches about ALL the different religions, and how they came about - a class that would teach tolerance and respect for others beliefs. But a class that teaches the bible? No. Sorry. I would yank my kids out of that school so fast the teachers head would be spinning! Leave the bible in church or in your homes, but don't force it on other peoples children just because it's YOUR truth and YOUR guide book through life.

When offered as an elective - no one would be forced to participate.
I remember when I was in H.S. - a biology class that I HAD to take in order to graduate had a section of study on evolution. Now, I don't believe the evolution theroy at all.
I did opt out of that section of study, because it was against my beliefs, but if they are going to study evolution - then why not other things. You (the school) are offering one thing - but denying the rest. Is that right? I think not.

But, again, the question at hand is - if this was offered as an elective, if your child choses to take this and learn more - would you have a problem. Remember, elective is not forced. I mean, we think our kids are responsible enough at 16 to drive a car. Some are still in school at 18, they are responsible enough to vote, go into the military, etc. Are they not responsible enough to choose a class of study that interests them?

Evolution is scientific fact, I have no problems with it being taught as such.
The Bible is a work of literature, I have no problems with it being taught as such.

I do not believe that evolution is a scientific fact. I think it is a theroy. It goes against EVERYTHING I believe. But, yet, it is taught in school.

And, if the Bible is just literature - then why not teach it in English class? Right along side "To kill a mockingbird"?

The neat thing about science is that you can get a bunch of you together and try to disprove the studies/theories by publishing your research findings and have others comment on it.

Yes it is a theory. Thank you for confirming me. A theory is something that is confirmed by all available evidence. Thus it is fact.

Like I said, I am happy for the Bible to be studied alongside Shakespeare and Orwell.

Well - I don't believe it - so, it is offensive to me to have it taught in school. Just like the Bible is offensive to others. So, what now?

Except for the violent parts:
Does biblical violence cause aggressive biblical readers? (http://www.religioustolerance.org/violtext.htm)

This is exactly why faith has no place in school. Why on Earth would a scientific fact be offensive to you? That's like saying you're offended by the notion that a ball will fall if you drop it, or that an opaque object in a light beam casts a shadow.

I suppose people were having this same debate hundreds of years ago over flat vs. round Earth. Or the Stars being actual entities that were able to be visited vs the canvas of the heavens.

It is offensive to me because I do not believe that it is fact. I think it is a way for science to have an answer to everything. And every question does not have an answer.

If evolution says we "evolved" from monkeys - then why are there still monkeys?

Heh, because we and monkeys evolved from a monkey-like ancestor (that we would still call a type of monkey). They evolved one way, we evolved another, dependent upon our environments.

If you'd like to question evolution further, I'd be happy to answer any queries you have in another thread. It IS scientific fact, though. And it DOES fit all the evidence.

Sorry, I just don't buy it. And with that - school is giving one option - why not the others.

Because the other options are not agreed upon by people who's job is to look at all the evidence and to propose the best model (scientists). I have faith that the scientific community would happily back creationism if it were the simplist model that had sufficient evidence, but it does not. In fact it contradicts much of the evidence we have.

They are not the deceptive single-minded beings that creationists seek to make them out to be. They are paid to be open-minded.

Oh, so because people in white coats said it was true - it must be. I don't put much faith in that at all. If they can tell us how we got here - why can't they figure out the cure for the common cold or cancer. They DO NOT have all the answers. They are just regular joes like the rest of us. Trying to make sense of something and this is the best they could come up with.

NowWhat,
They haven't fingered the cure for the common cold or cancer (actually fine Canadian scientists are close but they are getting stymied by American Big Pharma) but they have figured out how to cure thousands of ailments. They is a reason that your child is no longer dying of polio or german measles or a fever or an infection - it's thanks to fine people in white coats. If you have kids you should be extremely grateful that science has brought what it has to us.

Just because you don't understand something does not mean you should reject it outright. You are probably happy driving a car or watching TV, I can assure you that God didn't develop those for you.

You're comparing two completely different things. Evolution is the theory that explains how species form and how life got from a few strands of RNA to all the life we see today.

Your examples are technological ones, not theoretical ones.

Evolution goes a long way toward explaining why cancerous cells form. There are plenty of treatments for cancer which are getting better all the time. The reason there isn't a cure is because it isn't an organism like most diseases are, it's your own body and it's caused by how our cells work and how they are damaged. We have to try and reverse that damage.

The common cold EVOLVES so well and quickly into different strains that we cannot cure it with a single cure. There ARE cures for it but those cures will only kill 99% of a strain. The others have mutations that make them resistant to the cure and they multiply and voilà we have a strain that is resistant to the cure. (this is the definition of evolution)

Scientists don't have an answer to everything. Sure. I don't see how that's an argument against them. God has given us precious few answers too. Some of the answers he has given us don't match up to the evidence we have found. This has 2 conclusions. God is lying to us (for whatever motive), or that he doesn't exist.

The evidence is there. You can look at it and come to whatever conclusions you want. But people who have studied this and all other theories for their entire lives have come to the conclusion that evolution fits all the facts. It seems to be folly to just dismiss their conclusions like you are.

NowWhat has avery good point. Because one particular religion is more prevalent in a given area, doesn't mean that it is more correct than another. Just more popular.

Is anyone so afraid of learning about the bible that they shudder at even being exposed to the idea of looking inside the cover?

And some of its implications, hasn't looked at the Gregorian calandar : Gregorian calendar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar) It's long but I found it quite interesting reading.

My point of bring evolution into the discussion is this - It goes against my beliefs. Just as the Bible goes against others. Yet, one is taught and the other isn't.
If you believe this - that is your choice. If you believe the Bible - again your choice.

And NK, I do believe that God provided things such as cars and TV for us. He gave the people responsible for those inventions the knowledge. I believe that, With God, All things are possible.

And NK, I do believe that God provided things such as cars and tv for us. He gave the people responsible for those inventions the knowledge.You don't believe that the persons themselves gained the knowledge? That it was given to them by God?

I don't think that God came to them in a dream or something like that - if that is what you are asking.

But, I do think that God gives us a path. God gives us talents. Like the great artists of the world. They have a God given ability to paint the most beautiful pictures. Unlike me, who can't even draw a straight line.

You don't believe that the persons themselves gained the knowledge? That it was given to them by God?

NK... that is right!! You can't even breathe in and out without His permission!

Tessy,
I really don't undertand you. Was that sarcasm?

LOL... nope... absolute truth! ')

Weird 'cause I breathe a whole lot without his permission.

I so want to respond to that, NK, but I am just not up for the can of worms today. :)

NW,
Let's take a break from here. I agree. :)
Wait, let me go get His permission first. :)

You know, if I were a different kind of person, I would have to say you are just a smart a$$. But, I am not that kind of person. :)

Thank god you didn't say it!

You make me laugh... sometimes.

NK... I will... I don't know about the SMART PART... lol!! KIDDING OF COURSE...

Ah Tessy, always the passive-aggressive one that hides insults in joking comments.

AHH NK... I'm funny and you know it... GROUP HUG?

If the bible is taught in public school then other religions would need to be taught as well. We would have to bring in religious literature from buddism, islam, mormon, quarn, etc. I don't think any religious literature should be taught in public school.

I know that many christians would be outraged if satanism was being taught in public schools! So if it's OK to teach the bible as a way to expose students to christianity then why wouldn't it be OK to expose students to satanism with satanic literature? How many christians would fight against this?

Studying any religion in a public school will benefit absolutely nothing. It won't help students become productive members of society. There's other avenues in which a person can study world religions such as through the internet, the library, etc. Do Google search to learn more about world religions.

I would rather see this taught in school (taken from someone's blog):

Building Self-Esteem

1. Do what you love.
Everyone loves to do something, when you indulge yourself in your love you improve the way you feel about yourself. You improve yourself esteem.

2. Help others out.
Nothing makes you feel a warm glow than when you unselfishly help others. Of course you can argue that this in itself is selfish, but if you take that line of thought you must think that existence is selfish. Forget that. Just do a good deed, help someone out, doesn't have to be big and it doesn't have to cost any money.

3. Acknowledge your strengths
There is no one who has no strengths. Everyone is good at something, know what your good at and give yourself a pat on the back. Do things that bring this quality out into the open. Exercise it, make it stronger.

4. Don't put up with crap.
There is no reason you should tolerate other people being mean to you. Even if they say they are doing it with love. Make sure people know they should be nice to you and if they refuse, walk away from them.

5. Drop your negative friends.
Hang out with people who are positive and support you. It may be fun to and moan but if you hang out with these types of people you will eventually become one of them. You may have noticed that people who and moan are never happy.

6. Do your research
A lof of self help books are a waste of time in the sense that the only person who can change you is you. Reading even this blog post will not change you unless you get emotionally involved with the information. Which is really hard as it's really dry and boring. Go read biographies of people you respect, people who do positvive things and attain huge success. Learn from the master not the self help guru who is always in debt.

7. Learn to accept compliments.
It's hard to accept a compliment and not to dismiss it as being ridiculous. Someone has an opinion and it should be respected, even if you do not argree with it. If people think good about you then maybe you should too.

8. Include positivity in your life.
I'm not talking an airy fairy chant in the mirror whilst naked. I mean take a positive slant on everything automatically. The meat pie you just bit in to may contain maggots, but maggots contain a lot of protein. OK that's a bit extreme but you get the point.

9. Compare yourself against yourself.
If you look at how you were yesterday and how you are today and there is an improvement then that is great. If there is no improvement then you know you need to improve your efforts. Don't start comparing yourself to other people. Saying you are poor compared to D. Trump is just going to make you miserable.

10. There is no need for you to put yourself down.
Y seeing yourself in a negative light you are only reinforcing your low self esteem. If you want to improve yourself esteem. Ask yourself, how can I improve myself esteem. The answer will always be, find one positive thing about yourself and that will do it.

I like that NK, I think it would be nice to have more classes that build up a persons self-esteem. But, I don't think they even have things like this available in our schools.

There's it... that's the NK I was talking about :)

And NK, I do believe that God provided things such as cars and TV for us. He gave the people responsible for those inventions the knowledge. I believe that, With God, All things are possible.

Then why do many Christians oppose stem cell research? Didn't god give the scientists the knowledge to develop such a thing? If god did it, why is there such a fuss about pursuing it?

And evolution is taught in a science course because it's a scientific topic. Creationism/ID/FSM is not scientific and does not belong in a science course. Those theories all center around the belief in a particular faith, so they cannot be taught in public school because it would be unconstitutional. Evolution is no more religious than gravity, the orbit of the earth, blah blah blah, which is why it is permissible.

I don't know enough about stem cell research to really know. But, isn't it taking something from a baby - potentially putting that life at risk? Maybe that is what the controversy is about - putting a life at risk when that life has no control over it.
Like I said, I don't know enough about it to really respond.

And isn't evolution an explanation of where we came from? Created? So creation?
Like I said before, the reason I brought up evolution was to say - I don't believe in it, the fact that it is taught offends me - but yet it is still there.
I think the Bible tells me where I came from - but it is not taught in schools.

Why would it be so bad to give a high school student the option to learn about religion?

I don't know enough about stem cell research to really know. But, isn't it taking something from a baby - potentially putting that life at risk? Not quite:
Stem cell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stem_cell#Controversy_surrounding_stem_cell_resear ch)



And isn't evolution an explanation of where we came from? Created? So creation? Not at all. Even scientists argur about how life came about originally. But they agree that the evidence points to evolution as the way the diversity of living organisms came to be on this earth; as opposed to no life one minute and then all current appearing at once. More reading here:
Evolution Defined: What is Evolution and Evolutionary Theory? How Is The Concept Of Evolution Misunderstood? (http://atheism.about.com/od/evolutionexplained/a/definition.htm)
[/quote]


Why would it be so bad to give a high school student the option to learn about religion?Nothing at all NW, we all seem to agree that it should be an option not a requirement. Other options for study may also include the Koran, Atheism, etc.

The Wiki link is a pretty good one; if you read that you should have a better understanding. But in sum, stem cell research does not REQUIRE the destruction of an embryo, which is what a lot of religious people have a problem with. However, we are already destroying embryos - when a couple does IVF and it takes, they can choose to have the embryo destroyed. Happens all the time. Why not allow them to be donated to stem cell research? That's my big question (you said you don't know a lot about it - I don't expect you to have the answer!).

Thank you for the reading. I can see why stem cell research has people up in arms. But, I think that conversation would be better suited on another thread.

If study of the Bible were to get equal time as the Koran or whatever else, then I would be for it. I think that study of different religions would be beneficial. A lot of times religion and culture go hand in hand. And if our students could study this - they may just learn something...

Hell, if I had all the answers - I wouldn't be here typing on my computer.

I think the statement that Christians have a problem with stem cell research - is a blanket statement. If there was a way to regulate the donation of embryos - the ones being destroyed anyway - I would be all for it. Let that life have a purpose.
I am a Christian and I can say that. And according to what the link NK provided - it does say that the destruction of a human embryo IS required.
Again, a stem cell research debate is for another thread.

The embryo is "harvested" and planned as a research cell to begin with as I understand it.

To be honest NW neither sides are going to be swayed to jump ship in this discussion. But it's interesting to hear how the other side sees the world. I'd have a beer with you anyday (if you're allowed). :)

If I am allowed - HA! As long as we don't have it at church!

I know we've gone way off topic, but I wanted to acknowledge that you are right - saying all Christians are opposed to stem cell research is a blanket statement and is not accurate (but I didn't say that!). I didn't read the wiki link thoroughly, but stem cells can be taken from existing organs and umbilical cords. Embryonic stem cell research requires the destruction of embryos, but there are other methods.

Wow! Way off topic! So, How about the bible in schools thing? :)

Yes, we are off topic. But, I have learned something new today - so it isn't all bad.