Hello:

I didn't like it when George W. Bush started snooping on ME, but YOU said they're only doing that IF you call somebody overseas... You said you had nothing to hide. You thought giving up your 4th Amendment right was cool. How come you didn't fight for it like you do the 1st?

I said nahhh... Give government an INCH and they want a MILE. Are you happy with the government knowing who you email and who you call?? Oh, I know you'll tell me they don't listen. They only know who you called.. To that, I say, bwa, ha ha ha ha..

excon

I'm bothered. I'm bothered also by the fact that it bothers me less about my Rights and more by how pathetic it is to store every communication ever made in case we want to search keywords that might reveal something. And how much it costs to build a huge new facility out in the desert just to do this. And how we do this partly because we feel inadequate because we Americans don't have the biggest fastest computers to do this mind boggling data storage. And how we don't have actual real live clever out-and-about people who know what's going on in the world in the old fashioned way. Our intelligence gathering has 'evolved' to this because we couldn't find our mouths with a $30 pizza in our hands, or the Berlin Wall falling, or the breakup of the USSR.

Did anyone think, that giant building with all the equipment was just going to close becaue Bush got caught using it. ( no one asked when it was built,) ** long before Bush.

Of course Obama has been doing the same thing.

They're also monitoring your credit cards. But remember that inch/mile thing next time we discuss the IRS (oops, dog whistle) and Zerocare.

What are you worried about? Are you laundering money? Are you doing something criminal? What I think is you are too self important

What are you worried about? Are you laundering money? Are you doing something criminal? can I have your home address, your work address, your full name, and your credit card number please?

Orwell Or Obama? (http://www.buzzfeed.com/hnigatu/orwell-or-obama)

can I have your home address, your work address, your full name, and your credit card number please?

Well I don't mind telling you who I am but you can't have my credit card number unless I'm buying something from you. Look your government already has this information just by asking your bank, So what are you worried about? That they might confirm it? We can be tracked from any number of sources and the only way to stay off the grid is to deal in cash, grow your own vegetables and keep a very low profile frankly, I have better things to do.

Of course the premise of this OP is faulty . Both the Patriot Act and the FISA reauthorization have specific parameters. When you can show me that Bush violated them then I'll agree. Unitl then,your's and Huffpos melding of Bush and the Emperor is a faulty analysis . So far all I know of is this most recent disregard of the law of the land... of which a disturbing pattern of disregard has been established with this adm.
I certainly don't understand the left's outrage. They support data bases for gun owners .They support the government database of our healthcare . You would think they would just as quickly not care about data mining of everyone's phone and electronic communications .

Just an FYI for ex, that bulldog buddy of yours and the last House Oversight guy Henry Waxman, is wanting some answers from Obama along with some other Dems.

George W. Bush critics turn wrath on President Obama - Darren Samuelsohn - POLITICO.com (http://www.politico.com/story/2013/06/george-w-bush-haters-turn-wrath-on-obama-92388.html?hp=f1)

I'm somewhat amused by the backlash at these revelations. Spy novelists (Tom Clancy in particular) told us about this 10 years ago (see The Teeth of the Tiger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Teeth_of_the_Tiger)).

Throw away the chalk boards folks as technology has opened up a new world fast, and if you don't trust YOUR government, then you shouldn't trust China or Russia either.

I mean the mobsters are robbing banks now with ATM cards, and companies have been buying and selling your info for years. What? You trust Target, and not Obama?

Liberty Reserve Shut Down in $6 Billion Online Money Laundering Case (http://www.smh.com.au/it-pro/security-it/westpac-caught-up-in-worlds-biggest-money-laundering-sting-20130529-2naa8.html)

http://www.firstpost.com/business/money-laundering-how-cobrapost-carried-out-its-sting-operation-755027.html

While we must carefully watch our own government closely, don't ignore the ones we should keep an eye on or the government should be watching. That's a bit naïve and foolish.

Hello again, Steve:


House Oversight guy Henry Waxman, is wanting some answers from Obama along with some other Dems.Henry and I come from the same school of liberalism.

Did I tell you that HE was president of the Beverly Hills Young Democrats right before I was? I helped Henry win his first election against Tony Belinson for the State House.

Excon

Hello again, Steve:

Henry and I come from the same school of liberalism.

Did I tell you that HE was president of the Beverly Hills Young Democrats right before I was? I helped Henry win his first election against Tony Belinson for the State House.

excon

Yep, I recall that. Help him get some answers.

Sad to say ;the tin foil hats are right. All bets are off. Must we resign to the fact that our private communications are freakin billboards ?
Perhaps this was a subtle signal to the ChiComs to show them that we are as adept at cyber-espionage as they ? Would've loved to sit down at the pow-wow at the Annenberg Estate today as the Emperor and the Princeling turned ruler of the Middle Kingdom met to decide how to carve up the world .

If the government is spying on me, I hope they don't get bored easily.

Lincoln, a lawyer, suspended habeas corpus. When asked why, he replied (paraphrased), "The fate of the nation was more important".

Yes, the government spying on its citizens is troubling, but drastic times require drastic actions. War is messy and some things in wartime are, unfortunately, necessary - even to the detriment of some freedoms.

I'm in agreement that in wartime ,the Constitution is not a suicide pact. But this is not comparable . Lincoln had hostile standing armies within marching distance of the nations Capitol throughout the Civil War .As late as July 1864 Confederate Jubal A. Early had a Confederate army poised to attack Washington DC .

No , Lincoln NEVER ran a dragnet over the entire Union population . His suspension of habeas was a direct result of an internal rebellion inside the United States. Washington DC was right on the Confederate border and was constantly in danger of being cut off from the rest of the Union .That fact alone impacted every war time strategy the North employed in the Eastern theater of the war. The 1st time he suspended it ,20,000 Confederate sympathizers in Baltimore tried to stop Union troops from traveling from one train station to another en route to Washington, causing a riot. So on April 27,1861 Lincoln suspended the habeas corpus privilege on points along the Philadelphia-Washington route. That meant Union generals could arrest and detain without trial anyone in the area who threatened the passage of Union troops to the Capitol and the battlefield.

Now the Emperor has on more than one occasion made the statement that the war of terrorism is over . So why would he need broad executive powers to execute a war that he declares is over ? And even if any type of action was justifiable ,why a broad data mining on all Americans ? What purpose does that serve ? He can't even make the case that it prevented the worse terrorist attack inside the United States since 9-11 .

Besides we have nothing to be concerned about .After-all ,these are only "modest encroachments on privacy." We should just trust to Obots because they have "internal mechanisms ...to make sure we do not violate your rights."
Consider that this information comes in the wake of a SCOTUS decision that permits police to take arrested people's DNA without search warrants.
Shamefully almost all the conservative members of the court voted with the majority . Scalia to his credit sided with the liberal members of the court,Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Sonia Sotomayor, and Elena Kagan ;and wrote a scathing dissent .
Scalia acknowledged that taking the DNA of arrested people could help solve more crimes. However he observed that "Perhaps the construction of such a genetic panopticon is wise. But I doubt that the proud men who wrote the charter of our liberties would have been so eager to open their mouths for royal inspection,"
FindLaw | Cases and Codes (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&navby=case&vol=000&invol=12-207)
The majority (which included liberal justice Steven Bryer along with the rest of the conservative judges ) concluded that the DNA helps identify the arrestee . Scalia countered that "The Court's assertion that DNA is being taken, not to solve crimes, but to identify those in the State's custody, taxes the credulity of the credulous,".... "These DNA searches have nothing to do with identification."

And that's the point about all this data mining . It has nothing to do with gathering evidence on a suspected terrorist plot . It's collecting a field full of hay stacks hoping they will stumble upon a needle.

I'm in agreement that in wartime ,the Constitution is not a suicide pact. But this is not comparable . Lincoln had hostile standing armies within marching distance of the nations Capitol throughout the Civil War .As late as July 1864 Confederate Jubal A. Early had a Confederate army poised to attack Washington DC .

No , Lincoln NEVER ran a dragnet over the entire Union population . His suspension of habeas was a direct result of an internal rebellion inside the United States. Washington DC was right on the Confederate border and was constantly in danger of being cut off from the rest of the Union .That fact alone impacted every war time strategy the North employed in the Eastern theater of the war. The 1st time he suspended it ,20,000 Confederate sympathizers in Baltimore tried to stop Union troops from traveling from one train station to another en route to Washington, causing a riot. So on April 27,1861 Lincoln suspended the habeas corpus privilege on points along the Philadelphia-Washington route. That meant Union generals could arrest and detain without trial anyone in the area who threatened the passage of Union troops to the Capitol and the battlefield.

Now the Emperor has on more than one occasion made the statement that the war of terrorism is over . So why would he need broad executive powers to execute a war that he declares is over ? And even if any type of action was justifiable ,why a broad data mining on all Americans ? What purpose does that serve ? He can't even make the case that it prevented the worse terrorist attack inside the United States since 9-11 .

Did Lincoln have to worry about planes into skyscrapers, nuke, or dirty bombs, pressure cookers bombs, suicide bombers, or drug violence?

No, he thought he could take his wife to the theater and enjoy the show. So now you want the FBI to not have the tools to even get a whiff of a bad guy. The fact that the programs now have been going on for decades and technology has made them expand why? Because there are more bad guys who are smarter than the cop, state or national. After the fact response is too late. This is no different than a cop with a radar gun to catch speeders to me, but the oversight against abuse should be a paramount concern for all.

Despite the hollering we have no evidence of abuses at this time but the debate continues.

As for the DNA without a warrant, do fingerprints need a warrant? Not after you are charged, and DNA is the modern day equivalent of fingerprints. But again I think you have to have transparency, oversight, and rules that have to be developed and be current with circumstances and conditions,

As for the DNA without a warrant, do fingerprints need a warrant? Not after you are charged, and DNA is the modern day equivalent of fingerprints. But again I think you have to have transparency, oversight, and rules that have to be developed and be current with circumstances and conditions,
From the Scalia dissent :


If one believes that DNA will “identify” someone arrested for assault, he must believe that it will “identify” someone arrested for a traffic offense. This Court does not base its judgments on senseless distinctions. At the end of the day, logic will out. When there comes before us the taking of DNA from an arrestee for a traffic violation, the Court will predictably (and quite rightly) say, “We can find no significant difference between this case and King.” Make no mistake about it: As an entirely predictable consequence of today’s decision, your DNA can be taken and entered into a national DNA database if you are ever arrested, rightly or wrongly, and for whatever reason.
Be prepared to be swabbed when a cop pulls you over for going through a stop sign.

Did Lincoln have to worry about planes into skyscrapers, nuke, or dirty bombs, pressure cookers bombs, suicide bombers, or drug violence?

No, he thought he could take his wife to the theater and enjoy the show. So now you want the FBI to not have the tools to even get a whiff of a bad guy. The fact that the programs now have been going on for decades and technology has made them expand why? Because there are more bad guys who are smarter than the cop, state or national. After the fact response is too late. This is no different than a cop with a radar gun to catch speeders to me, but the oversight against abuse should be a paramount concern for all.

Despite the hollering we have no evidence of abuses at this time but the debate continues.

I recall the collective outrage by the left when the Bush adm stayed within the guidelines of the Patriot Act . Now it appears that you'll scrap your argument against Bush in favor of worse intrusions, that clearly goes beyond the limits of the law, in defense of the Emperor. I'll wait for your apology to Bush... but I won't hold my breath .

Maybe you misunderstood my position, if they don't do fingerprints at traffic stops, why would you do DNA testing? Since the technology is here and going nowhere, maybe expanding and evolving, why shouldn't you have rules, regulations and oversights, to keep up?

Hello again,

Your government is watching, listening, monitoring, swabbing, patting down, stopping and frisking, probing, scanning, sniffing, and scoping you... And, that's just at the airport.

They've got secret courts and secret laws. I'm telling you, this is the Soviet Union on STEROIDS!

I don't like it. I didn't like it when George W. Bush started doing it, and I don't like it now.. Once the 4th Amendment got cracked, it got DESTROYED.

To me, the biggest scandal of all, one that means the END of my beloved country as I know it, is THIS one.

excon

PS> (edited) I'm watching FOX. Those people are really BUMMED that Obama is searching them. They're OUTRAGED.

They're HYPOCRITES!

SCOTUS just decided that anything goes. This case was in Maryland ;but how it's applied nationally is now open to local interpretation.

The people behind some of the major Supreme Court cases of 2013 - News - MSN CA (http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/the-people-behind-some-of-the-major-supreme-court-cases-of-2013-1)

Taking DNA swabs during arrests


In a 5-4 ruling in its first decision of the term, the Supreme Court on June 3 upheld the police practice of taking DNA samples from people who have been arrested but not convicted of a crime, deciding that the practice is the 21st century-equivalent of fingerprinting. The five justices in the majority wrote that DNA sampling, after an arrest “for a serious offense” and when officers “bring the suspect to the station to be detained in custody,” does not violate the Fourth Amendment's prohibition of unreasonable searches.

The case arose from the 2009 arrest of a 26-year-old Maryland man named Alonzo King, who was arrested for second-degree assault. Police took a DNA swab from his cheek, ran it through a database, and matched it to an unsolved rape from six years prior. King was convicted of rape and sentenced to life in prison. He pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor for the 2009 assault -- a crime that did not mandate the collection of his DNA (all states collect DNA of convicted felons). The Maryland Court of Appeals later reversed the rape conviction on the grounds that the DNA sample was an unreasonable search.

The Supreme Court decision reverses the Maryland court's ruling and reinstates Alonzo's rape conviction, according to the AP.

Hello again,

Your government is watching, listening, monitoring, swabbing, patting down, stopping and frisking, probing, scanning, sniffing, and scoping you... And, that's just at the airport.

They've got secret courts and secret laws. I'm telling you, this is the Soviet Union on STEROIDS!!

I don't like it. I didn't like it when George W. Bush started doing it, and I don't like it now.. Once the 4th Amendment got cracked, it got DESTROYED.

To me, the biggest scandal of all, one that means the END of my beloved country as I know it, is THIS one.

excon

PS> (edited) I'm watching FOX. Those people are really BUMMED that Obama is searching them. They're OUTRAGED.

They're HYPOCRITES!

I agree with you except at one point. I believe it was Clinto that opened the door to warantless searches. The difference being that it was refined under Bush. But there was still a mandate for getting a warrant so it can be used in court. What is happening now is a confiscation of data that could if released to the wrong sources can place ordinary people in extreme danger under life threatening conditions.

It's a fact they had a warrant as broad as it was that compelled data collectors to comply, through the FISA Court. We can debate the probable cause behind it though as being non specific.

Its a fact they had a warrant as broad as it was that compelled data collectors to comply, thru the FISA Court. We can debate the probable cause behind it though as being non specific.

So when the government suspects everyone of being a terrorist then you don't think that that is too broad ?

I don't know since we are not privy to those facts at this time and maybe we shouldn't be, but if the FISA court, and both democrats and republicans of the intelligence committee have signed off then maybe we don't have enough facts yet. Many questions have to be answered before I cry foul. And many congressmen are asking.

A fact we know for sure is we can't assume we know all the terrorists or there contacts and while we want to trust our fellow citizens we should verify it given another fact, Terrorist and criminals and crazy people do use the internet, and they do use the phone.

If you are more afraid of your government abusing power than terrorists, or crazy criminals killing Americans, then I can understand your position of assuming its too broad a net they cast. I fear both to be honest.

In a 5-4 ruling in its first decision of the term, the Supreme Court on June 3 upheld the police practice of taking DNA samples from people who have been arrested but not convicted of a crime, deciding that the practice is the 21st century-equivalent of fingerprinting. The five justices in the majority wrote that DNA sampling, after an arrest “for a serious offense” and when officers “bring the suspect to the station to be detained in custody,” does not violate the Fourth Amendment's prohibition of unreasonable searches.

The case arose from the 2009 arrest of a 26-year-old Maryland man named Alonzo King, who was arrested for second-degree assault. Police took a DNA swab from his cheek, ran it through a database, and matched it to an unsolved rape from six years prior. King was convicted of rape and sentenced to life in prison. He pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor for the 2009 assault -- a crime that did not mandate the collection of his DNA (all states collect DNA of convicted felons). The Maryland Court of Appeals later reversed the rape conviction on the grounds that the DNA sample was an unreasonable search.

The Supreme Court decision reverses the Maryland court's ruling and reinstates Alonzo's rape conviction, according to the AP.


That was indeed the majority opinion as written by Kennedy. I agree with the Scalia dissent . DNA is much more than a fingerprint.

Its a fact they had a warrant as broad as it was that compelled data collectors to comply, thru the FISA Court. We can debate the probable cause behind it though as being non specific.

REP. MAXINE WATERS: The President has put in place an organization with the kind of database that no one has ever seen before in life. That's going to be very, very powerful.
MR. MARTIN: In terms of Organizing for America, he is now shifting to become a 501 (c)(4)?

REP. MAXINE WATERS: That's right. And that database will have information about everything on every individual on ways that it's never been done before and whoever runs for President on the Democratic ticket has to deal with that. They're going to go down with that database and the concerns of those people because they can't get around it. And he's [President Obama] been very smart. It's very powerful what he's leaving in place.



Maxine Waters Confirms "Big Brother" Database 2013 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIA1lQBqH1s)

REP. MAXINE WATERS: The President has put in place an organization with the kind of database that no one has ever seen before in life. That's going to be very, very powerful.
MR. MARTIN: In terms of Organizing for America, he is now shifting to become a 501 (c)(4)?

REP. MAXINE WATERS: That's right. And that database will have information about everything on every individual on ways that it's never been done before and whoever runs for President on the Democratic ticket has to deal with that. They're going to go down with that database and the concerns of those people because they can't get around it. And he's [President Obama] been very smart. It's very powerful what he's leaving in place.


Maxine Waters Confirms "Big Brother" Database 2013 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIA1lQBqH1s)



Insanity plus 1. Why would she even think it is legal for a private organization to have a database like that they may have been collected through government assistance ?

Banks can track you easily through your paper trail on line so should we trust them too? Ever try to run from a bill collector or telemarketer, or a LAWYER? Now they have software and programs to bust your pimples.

Banks can track you easily thru your paper trail on line so should we trust them too? Ever try to run from a bill collector or telemarketer, or a LAWYER? Now they have software and programs to bust your pimples.

Actually it is possible if you preserve your online identity. Im always cautioning people about TMI. The thing is that a banking institution by reason of how it works requires the information in order to complete transactions. They are not a third party entity. Many records are held from the public. Those records can and should be protected. But a third party collecting information without your knowlage or consent in my opinion is illegal. If you notice even many social webstes have disclaimers of one kind or another. Every contract you have a "sharing" claus and most include the passing of information by sopeana to give information to an outside source.

Businesses and banks share and sell lists all the time and to deal with them you do have to check a box of a lot of fine print no one reads. I can deal with check balances and safe guards that reflect the new technology and defines what legal and not.

As much as I hate the idea of law enforcement having vast powers, I recognize they have to have tools to be effective against bad guys who are ever coming up with ways to get what they want.

I mean how else can you separate bad guys killing innocent ones if you can't tell them apart? Its to late after the bomb goes off.

Banks can track you easily thru your paper trail on line so should we trust them too? Ever try to run from a bill collector or telemarketer, or a LAWYER? Now they have software and programs to bust your pimples.

And Dodd Frank made it possible for the government to access all that too.

I mean how else can you separate bad guys killing innocent ones if you can't tell them apart? Its to late after the bomb goes off.

How else? There is a prsumption of innocence before guilt in out legal system. It sounds as if you would like to see that go to the wayside? If there I a criminal in a neighborhood then they should arrest the whole neighborhood? After all isn't it guilt by association?

Our legal system is designed as such that yes the bomb has to go off before you can charge someone with a crime for it. If you don't want that system and you want to arrest and prosecute for thinking something that may be illegal to the fullest extent of the law then you live in a very different world then I want to be in. How many times have some of us on some level said dumb things out of anger with no real intent behind the thinking. Things along the lines of "geez I could kill so and so for doing that" or other things that may come to mind while driving in heavy traffic. We don't need thought police. And we don't need a third party monitoring us or releasing records on us to a general public that may endanger lives.

Well hell, that's the solution then, wait until they strike and then start looking for them. Why didn't I think of that?

Businesses and banks share and sell lists all the time and to deal with them you do have to check a box of a lot of fine print no one reads. I can deal with check balances and safe guards that reflect the new technology and defines what legal and not.

As much as I hate the idea of law enforcement having vast powers, I recognize they have to have tools to be effective against bad guys who are ever coming up with ways to get what they want.

I mean how else can you separate bad guys killing innocent ones if you can't tell them apart? Its to late after the bomb goes off.

Well for one thing ,remember that FISA means Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act ; not FEDERAL Intelligence Surveillance Act
MR. EARNEST: I know there's at least one story that all of you may b
E interested in: the reports overnight about a purported order from a FISA judge, as reported. So why don't I read a statement at the top just to give you a sense about where we are on this, and then I’m happy to answer your follow-up questions after that. So if you'll bear with me, we’ll do this.

It won’t surprise you to hear that I'm not in a position to discuss specific classified or operational issues. But what I can explain to you are our policies. The Patriot Act was signed into law in October of 2001, and included authority to compel production of business records and other tangible details with the approval of a FISA Court. This provision has subsequently been reauthorized over the course of two different administrations -- in 2006 and in 2011.

The Obama administration has made public that some orders issued by the FISA Court, under Section 215 of the Patriot Act, have been used to support important and highly sensitive intelligence collection operations on which members of Congress have been fully and repeatedly briefed. And I think you’ve heard a couple of members of Congress in both parties today acknowledge that fact.

The intelligence community is conducting court-authorized intelligence activities pursuant to a public statute with the knowledge and oversight of Congress and the intelligence community in both houses of Congress. There is also extensive oversight by the executive branch, including the Department of Justice and relevant agency counsels and inspectors general, as well as annual and semi-annual reports to Congress, as required by law.

There is a robust legal regime in place governing all activities conducted, pursuant to the Federal Intelligence Surveillance Act. That regime has been briefed to and approved by the court. And activities authorized under the act are subject to strict controls and procedures under oversight of the Department of Justice, the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, and the FISA Court, to ensure that they comply with the Constitution and the laws of the United States and appropriately protect privacy and civil liberties.

The order reprinted overnight does not allow the government to listen in on anyone's telephone calls. The information acquired does not include the content of any communications or the name of any subscriber. It relates exclusively to call details, such as a telephone number or the length of a telephone call.

The information of the sort described in the article has been a critical tool in protecting the nation from terror threats as it allows counterterrorism personnel to discover whether known or suspected terrorists have been in contact with other persons who may be engaged in terrorist activities, particularly people located inside the United States.

My final point here: The President welcomes a discussion of the tradeoffs between security and civil liberties. Many of you covered his speech at the National Defense University just a couple of weeks ago. In that speech, the President said, "…in the years to come, we will have to keep working hard to strike the appropriate balance between our need for security and preserving those freedoms that make us who we are. That means reviewing the authorities of law enforcement so we can intercept new types of communication, but also build in privacy protections to prevent abuse.”
Press Gaggle by Deputy Principal Press Secretary Josh Earnest and Secretary of Education Arne Duncan en route Mooresville, NC, 6/6/2013 | The White House (http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2013/06/06/press-gaggle-deputy-principal-press-secretary-josh-earnest-and-secretary)

Well hell, that's the solution then, wait until they strike and then start looking for them. Why didn't I think of that?

Not sure but that is not the answer either. It's a matter of being proactive without throwing everyone under the bus. Just like what they did a few years back in Washington State when that guy wanted to blow stuff up during a Chirstmas celebration. They waited until he pushed the button before the arrest. Up to that point they were investigating it and watching it unfold.

I don't see it as throwing everyone under the bus, but I do hope that the safeguards should be put on the FISA court and the FBI that prevent just any old use of the data they mine. You are a computer guy so you know a broad data base is needed for identifying the norms to compare to the abnormal. A background to bring a clear picture to light.

I think though that the rules will be tightened up quite a bit, or the congress will look closer.

Dark Knight cell phone surveillance — Critical Commons (http://www.criticalcommons.org/Members/ccManager/clips/DarkKnightMontage.mov/view)

Rooting for the Joker huh? Okay they got the Joker, didn't they know Catwoman, and the Penguin were coming? Bet Lex Luthor has a better system.

Are you rooting for Lex to beat Superman? You probably are since you guys hate illegal aliens who sneak into the Earth.

I think Lucious Fox made excellent points. The idea that the government would dragnet millions of phone conversations is like I've already said... seaching through a field of hay stacks hoping to find a needle. I had no problem when the system was being used for conversations with known jihadist #s . It's a horse of a different color to make a broad sweep .

Horse of different colour, you have a mixed metaphor Tom horses don't search for needles in the hay, but we know who does, NSA, the Nasty Spies Association or the CIA,
The Crippled Intelligence Association, who isn't allowed to go trolling on their own

The latest excuse is that the intel community took a hit for blowing the intel prior to 9/11/01 because intel was compartmentalized on a "need to know " basis . So they changed their methods to more interdepartment sharing ;and intel became a 'need to share ' arrangement . So that's why we get weasels like Bradley Manning and this jerk Ed Snowden .

Then to my great disappointment , John Bolton said that the dragnet approach had to be OK because all 3 branches of government signed off on it. What nonsense! There is nothing in any of the laws that cover this activity that justifies such a broad data grab. What I would like to see is the brief that the Obots submitted to a FISA judge to get the judge to sign the warrant . The judge should be impeached.

Well this is interesting: Bush’s Carlyle Group behind NSA Spying
It's Tin Foil Hat Time – Bush's Carlyle Group behind NSA Spying « Dvorak News Blog (http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2013/06/11/its-tin-foil-hat-time-bushs-carlyle-group-behind-nsa-spying/)

Add some extra tin foil... James Robert Clapper, the emperor's DNI ,who lied to Congress about the NSA collecting data on hundreds of millions of Americans,was employed by BAH . Before him ,Bush hired John M. McConnell for the role... also from BAH . So it appears that both adm. Have dipped their beaks into the same well.

Hello again,


Bush’s Carlyle Group behind NSA SpyingI'm not thrilled that we're subcontracting our national security apparatus to private companies that are partly owned by Saudi Shieks... But, that's just me.

Maybe you trust your government with your secrets (I don't know why), but do you trust private companies with 'em?

Excon

"Military Industrial Complex" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Industrial_Complex)

Kind of hard to get the geek squad to apply for a government job when they can command the salaries they do in the private sector . Ed Snowden obviously was doing all right for himself according to his video and the pix I've seen of his "pole dancer " girlfriend .

kinda hard to get the geek squad to apply for a government job when they can command the salaries they do in the private sector . Ed Snowden obviously was doing alright for himself according to his video and the pix I've seen of his "pole dancer " girlfriend .

120k a year. But depending on what he was doing in his field that's about the correct salary. I don't see a problem there.

Why squeal and run to China? China??

Why squeal and run to China? China???

Best guess is that Jullian Assange isn't paying what he used to for espionage.

Julian isn't paying anything these days but no doubt others are

The dots are connecting and they are pointing towards Chinese espionage.

Hello again, tom:

Would you share your dots?

excon

the dots are connecting and they are pointing towards Chinese espionage.

I have heard they are also pointing towards US espionage, but you don't call it that ioer there, what is the venacular? Intelligence gathering? Given your track record I guess you need to do one hundred times as much as everyone else

Doe this make Snowden a whistleblower, or a secret agent for who, or a traitor for profit?

All the above... I'll come back later today with the open source info that is readily available . Hint.. Why did he 1st contact the Washington Compost with the info... and would've given them the scoop IF they published before the Annenburg Estate summit between the Chinese Premier and the Emperor ?

So did you see that Snowden gave an exclusive interview with the South China Morning Post ?(maybe you think the South China Morning Post is not a state controlled publication ?) He told them that the US has been hacking the Chinese since 2009. When that happened ,this became more than the US datamining it's own people. It is now espionage.
Edward Snowden Tells South China Morning Post: U.S. Has Been Hacking Hong Kong And China Since 2009 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/12/edward-snowden-south-china-morning-post-hong-kong-_n_3430082.html)

According to Eli Lake ,the NSA "Q group " has been looking for Snowden since May because of theft of US secrets.
Inside the (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/06/10/inside-the-q-group-the-directorate-hunting-down-andrew-snowden.html)
He escaped to Hong Kong. Why Hong Kong... a place that has a long standing extradition treaty with the US ? The reason is of course because he has reasonable expectation that he will NOT be subject to extradition. So in exchange for protection (and most likely a defection) he will give the Chinese the material he stole .

The final dot is that he offered the information to the Washington Compost 1st if they would publish in a 72 hr time frame .
Snowden made cautious approach to Post reporter, said he knew the risk he?s taking - Washington Post (http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-06-09/world/39856635_1_washington-post-intelligence-barton-gellman)
Why was that important to him ? Because he wanted the publication of his info to coincide with the Annenberg Manor summit between the Premier of China and the Emperor.
US-China summit fails to deliver - Columnist - New Straits Times (http://www.nst.com.my/opinion/columnist/us-china-summit-fails-to-deliver-1.299059)
The President was armed with the evidence about the extent of the Chinese cyber-espionage .
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/19/technology/chinas-army-is-seen-as-tied-to-hacking-against-us.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
But came away from the meeting with neither side saying much if anything about the issue.
The timing of the release cannot be a coincidence.

Yes it's greatly disturbing what he revealed as far as the extent of the domestic snooping... but Snowden is giving us a snow job. He isn't no Daniel Ellsburg wannabee. He's more like Julius Rosenberg if you ask me.

We agree!

How Spy Agency Contractors Have Already Abused Their Power | The Nation (http://www.thenation.com/blog/174741/how-spy-agency-contractors-have-already-abused-their-power#axzz2WJoL2oUg)


Twenty House Democrats called for an investigation into the scandal, but the Republican-held chamber did little to look into the story. However, Congressman Hank Johnson did manage to briefly question NSA officials about the three defense contractors.

Scandalous enough for Darrel Issa?

Firms like Palantir—a Palo Alto–based business that helps intelligence agencies analyze large sets of data—exist because of the government's post-9/11 rush to develop a “terror-detection leviathan” of high-tech companies
The leviathan is the Federal Government , not a subset intelligence gathering capability .

My signature for many months now has the quote "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? " .The English translation to that is "who will watch the watchers ? " I am shocked at how many people on both sides of the aisle defend these abuses .
To blame these abuses on the so called 'privatization ' of security is a diversion from the fact that American Intelligence has pretty much dropped the ball since the National Security Act of 1947 replaced the OSS with the CIA .

Yeah just let the contractors scam the people. Why not? Everybody else is.

Alger Hiss , Julius Rosenberg , Bernon F. Mitchell and William H. Martin ,Jonathan J. Pollard,Aldrich Hazen... all turn coats and traitors who came out of an intelligence system long before the use of private contractors... also Bradley Manning was not in the employ of a contractor.
Your obsessive phobia of private contractors is irrational.

Its no phobia Tom, just a healthy mistrust of business motives, so try not to get distracted here.

I agree with you Tal national security should not be contracted out, next you will be telling me all this survellience takes place in Bangalore

Home grown terrorist and loony lone wolves are domestic, and even more a fact is that businesses mine more information than government does for marketing, profit, and gaining advantage over the competition all the time. But government is supposed to not use that data to save lives?

Sure have oversight, and strict rules of probable cause, and getting a warrant, that's been done by law enforcement any way, by state, local, and federal authorities. We can dispense with the cloak and dagger though, and accept technology as a tool with strict rules of conduct.

Hello:

If the government comes across a plan to rob a bank, are they going to DO something about it? IF the run into a conspiracy to deliver heroine, are they going to DO something about it? What if they detect that the president is screwing Nancy Pelosi?

Are they going to IGNORE that stuff?

excon

Did the government steal my mom's secret chicken recipe that she gave to me over the phone last week?

Hello:

If the government comes across a plan to rob a bank, are they gonna DO something about it? IF the run into a conspiracy to deliver heroine, are they gonna DO something about it?? What if they detect that the president is screwing Nancy Pelosi?

Are they gonna IGNORE that stuff?

excon

If they don't have a warrant to address those issues then yes they better ignore it. The government does not and can not superceed the peoples rights.

Its no phobia Tom, just a healthy mistrust of business motives, so try not to get distracted here.

I would like to point out that it was NOT the private contractor that gave Snowden his high level security clearance. It was the NSA or the CIA.
Evidently ;here is the resume of a modern day James Bond.
ViralRead » Who Is Edward Snowden? Background on NSA Leaker Emerges (http://www.viralread.com/2013/06/15/who-is-edward-snowden-background-on-nsa-leaker-emerges/)

Its safe to say we didn't see this guy coming, or going... to China to give them what he knows.

Excuse me if I don't find his motivations credible nor compare him to a cult hero, and believe he is trying to save the world. I think he broke the law, and is stirring up crap to cover his a$$ while he gets rich, and live good.

Its safe to say we didn't see this guy coming, or going....................to China to give them what he knows.

.

How can he give them what they already know. The system is porous and some people don't like the way it is administered. You should thank them otherwise you remain in ignorance

That of course is the correct response . The left here is using this incident as proof that private contracting is a mistake.

Don't tell me we agree Tom, let me put an X on the wall

With all this snooping and leaking you would think someone would reveal the Emperor's college transcripts . Even the Aussie government wants to know the intimate details of their citizen's lives .But still his college transcripts are sealed
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/aussie-gvt-wants-know-about-aussie-workers-sex-lfe-754860.html
Maybe Snowjob has them ,and that's why the Adm has filed a criminal complaint against him ,and has asked Hong Kong for extradition (what took them so long ?)

Meanwhile the skunk Jullian Assange has managed to charter a private jet from the Chinese company for $240,000 to wisk Snowjob to Iceland ,where he's most likely evade American authority for as long as he remained there. A commercial flight could be diverted . But a ,private jet has a bee line from China through Russian air space to Iceland ,with little chance of intercept.

So the defender of liberty Edward Snowjob has taken his pursuit of freedom to China ,Russia ;and is allegedly seeking to obtain asylum in that bastion of human rights ,Ecuador ;who's President Rafael Correa is a Hugo Chavez wannabee .

This is what The Atlantic reported when they learned that Jillian Assange was seeking asylum there.

International NGOs describe Ecuador as a country that is increasingly hostile to both journalists and transparency advocates, neither of which would seem to bode well for Assange. Reporters Without Borders has chronicled one shut-down after another. Last week, Freedom House issued its latest press release detailing the Correa government's ongoing crackdown on journalists: "The closure of another independent media outlet and numerous public comments made by President Rafael Correa attacking private media are an alarming illustration of Correa's growing attempts to silence critical media." The Human Rights Watch page for Ecuador warns, "Ecuador's laws restrict freedom of expression, and government officials, including Correa, use these laws against his critics. Those involved in protests marred by violence may be prosecuted on inflated and inappropriate 'terrorism' charges." Ecuadorian officials have attacked some of the critical NGOs. Wikileaks is not analogous to Freedom House or Human Right Watch, but if Assange were interested in predicting how a governmental transparency organization might be received in Ecuador, he might find some cause for concern.
Julian Assange Might Want to Think Twice About Seeking Asylum in Ecuador - Max Fisher - The Atlantic (http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/06/julian-assange-might-want-to-think-twice-about-seeking-asylum-in-ecuador/258704/)

So there you have it ,a guy who is a self appointed arbiter of what secrets the US should keep ;a man who is crusading for transparency... has fled across the globe to some of the least free nations on the planet.

Hello again, tom:

So, I take it you didn't want to know that your government LIED to you. Personally, I want to know EVERYTHING about my government.. No, I don't want to know the nuclear codes.. I don't want to know the attack codes.. But, I DO want to know that my government is LYING to me. And, I don't much CARE from whom I learn stuff like that. The key is, I learn it.

Keeping your head in the sand is NOT a GOOD place to observe government, and make cogent commentary..

excon

PS> If our whistleblower protections actually WORKED, Snowden would be right here standing up. But, you and I BOTH know, if they get their hands on him they'll whisk him off to Gitmo never to be heard from again.

You guys talk about it all the time.. This is the most secretive administration EVER, and it has waged a relentless war against leakers and whistleblowers.

Hello again,

Let me expand on my last post... I'm a BELIEVER that a government needs to keep secrets. The issue is WHAT secrets it needs to keep. It's FINE that our attack codes are secret. It's FINE that the location of our nuclear subs are secret. But, it's NOT fine that government keeps that which is EMBARRASSING, a secret.. It's NOT fine that it keeps it's LIES secret.

In short, if one exposes military secrets, he's a traitor. But, if one exposes EMBARRASSING facts and outright LIES, he's certainly not a traitor. Yes, he's a hero - just as Daniel Ellsberg was.

It's a shame that some people can't make that distinction.

excon

I have a problem with a 29 year old guy deciding what right and what's wrong, but we do have to have a dialogue between all the people about what's acceptable and what ain't from the government we elect. I already knew they lie, cheat, and steal. That's no secret.

Hello again,

Lemme expand on my last post... I'm a BELIEVER that a government needs to keep secrets. The issue is WHAT secrets it needs to keep. It's FINE that our attack codes are secret. It's FINE that the location of our nuclear subs are secret. But, it's NOT fine that government keeps that which is EMBARRASSING, a secret.. It's NOT fine that it keeps it's LIES secret.

In short, if one exposes military secrets, he's a traitor. But, if one exposes EMBARRASSING facts and outright LIES, he's certainly not a traitor. Yes, he's a hero - just as Daniel Ellsberg was.

It's a shame that some people can't make that distinction.

excon

Your messengers are the problem . Don't think for one moment that either Snowjob or Bradley Manning are the next Daniel Ellsberg (who by the way was also employed by a private contractor when he leaked the Pentagon Papers... the left forgets that today when they think that it's somehow some Republican outsourcing of government business that is the root of the problem) . I would also note that BEFORE Ellsberg went to the press with his classified docs ;he met with Senators and tried to convince them to reveal the content of the Pentagon papers because they could not be prosecuted for the disclosure.
After his disclosures ;he did not wisk off to America's enemies with a briefcase full of material to give aid and comfort to them . Instead he took his chances with the American legal system.
No don't equate this guy with an American hero whistle blower . More likely he was flipped by the Chinese while working in Hawaii. He certainly lived the life style of a person who had another revenue source.

Hello again, tom:


More likely he was flipped by the Chinese while working in HawaiiNahhh... Selling the secrets to the Chinese is one thing... Releasing them for Americans is another...

Excon

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-pIkNiMrudH0/UbSTc44BLYI/AAAAAAAAAZk/rjLwMSmkwmk/s400/Nixon+v.+Obama.jpg

Smoothy,
That started with Bush. But you may not be privy to that information like I am so I can forgive you.

Snowden Took Booz Allen Job With Intent To Expose NSA | TechCrunch (http://techcrunch.com/2013/06/24/snowden-took-booz-allen-job-with-intent-to-expose-nsa/)


Edward Snowden was a man on a mission: according to his latest interview, he took a private contractor position with the intent of exposing the National Security Agency. “My position with Booz Allen Hamilton granted me access to lists of machines all over the world the NSA hacked,” he told The South China Morning Post on June 12. “That is why I accepted that position about three months ago.”

Smoothy,
That started with Bush. But you may not be privy to that information like I am so I can forgive you.

Are you really that clueless? Or just being willfully ignorant? Because contrary to what Libtards believe... Bush isn't responsible for everything.

But then you are Canadian... you really aren't as clued in to all things American as you might think you are.

But then you are Canadian... you really aren't as clued in to all things American as you might think you are.You have no idea, stuck in your own little world LOL!

NSA warrantless surveillance (2001 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy)

Russ Tice, Bush-Era Whistleblower, Claims NSA Ordered Wiretap Of Barack Obama In 2004 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/20/russ-tice-nsa-obama_n_3473538.html)

CNN.com - Bush says he signed NSA wiretap order - Dec 17, 2005 (http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/17/bush.nsa/)

You have no idea, stuck in your own little world LOL!

NSA warrantless surveillance (2001 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy)

Russ Tice, Bush-Era Whistleblower, Claims NSA Ordered Wiretap Of Barack Obama In 2004 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/20/russ-tice-nsa-obama_n_3473538.html)

CNN.com - Bush says he signed NSA wiretap order - Dec 17, 2005 (http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/17/bush.nsa/)

Yeah... we got another one that believes everything they are told. I can provide links that Alien Abductions are real... would you believe those too?

All links to left wing hacks...

I got a heck of a laugh out of those propaganda links... CNN for one is a joke... they report what they are told to report... I saw that every day during the First Gulf war.

It might escape your capacity to grasp... but this sort of thing has been going on internationally in one form or other since the first transoceanic cables were laid. Bushes FATHER wasn't even born when that was going on... And its been going on in many OTHER countries as well... Bush didn't have a hand in that either.

Yeah... we got another one that believes everything they are told.Oh dear, the denial is strong with this one.

Oh dear, the denial is strong with this one.

Well... very much unlike you.. I've actually spent decades working closely with the US government.

And very unlike Snowden... I take the agreements I signed seriously.

But don't worry... word has it your emails and Phones calls bore the NSA guys to death.

I've actually spent decades working closely with the US government.No you haven't, it's a delusion you enjoy sharing with us for self-aggrandizing purposes.

The sad part is that the stuff you admonish me for can be directly applied to yourself, but you can't see that.

No you haven't, it's a delusion you enjoy sharing with us for self-aggrandizing purposes.

The sad part is that the stuff you admonish me for can be directly applied to yourself, but you can't see that.

Really.. you know this exactly how... you read it in your toilet bowl this morning when you took a dump?

Seriously... its time you stuck with things you actually know a little about.

of course the premise of this OP is faulty . Both the Patriot Act and the FISA reauthorization have specific parameters. When you can show me that Bush violated them then I'll agree. Unitl then,your's and Huffpos melding of Bush and the Emperor is a faulty analysis . So far all I know of is this most recent disregard of the law of the land .... of which a disturbing pattern of disregard has been established with this adm.
I certainly don't understand the left's outrage. They support data bases for gun owners .They support the government database of our healthcare . You would think they would just as quickly not care about data mining of everyone's phone and electonic communications .


A shortcut not often tried soon becomes a path well worn. And probably well worn into the future.

Snowjob told the Chinese that the only reason he went to Booz Allen was to conduct espionage . It is probable that he already had the files about NSA domestic datamining already . More likely he went the Booz Allen to pilfer information primarily about foreign places in which the United States was conducting hacking operations.
He also probably lied the Booz Allen about his backround.
There will be a complete separate investigation about how he was able to fool so many backround screeners . However ,it's unlikely that your average Geek Squad type could pull that off without deception training.

I do believe Snowden was a mole... and I hope they take him out... if then can't get him into a courtroom in the USA to convict him...

He claimed he can't get a fair trial... hogwash... He's already admitted he did it to the world so he has his own big mouth to blame.

He was hired to do a job... not inject his opinion. I have less than NO sympathy for him.

And I also really would not want to be in his shoes. He'll be looking over his shoulder and sleeping with one eye open.. for the rest of his life... however short that might be.

OK, so who is heading the precrime division?


Obama Administration Anti-Leak Scheme Shows Precrime and Total Information Awareness Go Hand In Hand (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamespoulos/2013/07/10/obama-administration-anti-leak-scheme-shows-precrime-and-total-information-awareness-go-hand-in-hand/)


Under the program, which is being implemented with little public attention, security investigations can be launched when government employees showing “indicators of insider threat behavior” are reported by co-workers, according to previously undisclosed administration documents obtained by McClatchy. Investigations also can be triggered when “suspicious user behavior” is detected by computer network monitoring and reported to “insider threat personnel.”

Federal employees and contractors are asked to pay particular attention to the lifestyles, attitudes and behaviors – like financial troubles, odd working hours or unexplained travel – of co-workers as a way to predict whether they might do “harm to the United States.” Managers of special insider threat offices will have “regular, timely, and, if possible, electronic, access” to employees’ personnel, payroll, disciplinary and “personal contact” files, as well as records of their use of classified and unclassified computer networks, polygraph results, travel reports and financial disclosure forms.

What could go wrong?

They are looking for the registered Democrats to weed out the Republicans who aren't getting all wet and tingly over the Messiah...

Because personally... after nearly 3 decades in and around the government... the biggest threat to American security and the United States is living in the White house for another couple years.

They are looking for the registered Democrats to weed out the Republicans who aren't getting all wet and tingly over the Messiah....

Because personally...after nearly 3 decades in and around the government...the biggest threat to American security and the United States is living in the White house for another couple years.

Personally you had your chance to remove him and as usual you blew it. Stop crying.

Personally you had your chance to remove him and as usual you blew it. Stop crying.
He could have never qualified for ANY security clearance based on the standards that apply to everyone who is not a Democrat Messiah.

His ties with known... and convicted terrorists alone would have disqualified him on that reason alone.
He's always been a threat to American security... he will always remain a threat to American security.


And incidentally... he would not have won EITHER election if there wasn't massive voter fraud.

I take it Tal is OK with the precime profiling.

Remember the chip in your wrist is mandatory by 2015 - 17. You think you got problems now! Wait until it weaves into every cell, veins and all and they can do with you what they want.

Remember the chip in your wrist is mandatory by 2015 - 17. You think you got problems now! Wait until it weaves into every cell, veins and all and they can do with you what they want.

What chip?

They have been pushing back the date, not sure the new date. The chip will keep track of every detail about you. It will be your bank, and NO it is not an Obama thing even though it is in Obamacare. It started way back before Obama and Bush. Both parties want it which proves yet again that the gov is 1 party. Look up New World Order (which both Bushs said a lot) look up agenda 21. Mandatory RFID Chip For All Americans With Biometrics by 2014 - Houston News and Breaking World News - NewscastMedia.com (http://www.newscastmedia.com/blog/2010/11/17/mandatory-rfid-chip-for-all-americans-with-biometrics-by-2014/)

The chip will keep track of every detail about you. It will be your bank, and NO it is not an Obama thing even though it is in Obamacare.All that is completely false. No government could force an individual to do that. This is tinfoil hat stuff.

All that is completely false. No government could force an individual to do that. This is tinfoil hat stuff.

Actually its not far fetched... and is technologically possible... and is incredibly cheap.

Its done with pets.. it can just as easily be done with people.

RFID it's a technology that's been around for quite a while.

Not sure about the specifics in the 2000 page law . There actually were provisions about rf chipping in some of the early proposals . As I recall ,it was in medical device monitoring language.

Actually its not far fetched... and is technologically possible... and is incredibly cheap.

Its done with pets.. it can just as easily be done with people.

RFID it's a technology that's been around for quite a while.I know all that, and more than you, for a specific reason. My point was that no government could force its citizens to get "chipped" against their will.

I know all that, and more than you, for a specific reason. My point was that no government could force its citizens to get "chipped" against their will.

Really... they force you to pay taxes... they force you to do a lot of things... gettign an ID chip really isn't that much of a jump.

Incidentally... I'm a Degreed Electronic Engineer... unless you are too... I think I know more about how these work.

I spent years in R&D labs... in fact you are using something right now I had a hand in designeing and bringing to market. In fact everyone here is.

But I'm not going to tell you what it is... because there was only a handful of us involved and I value my anonymity.

You're old, I'm young, I'm more involved in the technology and the government. :D

You're old, I'm young, I'm more involved in the technology and the government. :D

Old is a relative term...

I've been involved in High tech since College... which makes it roughly 32 years. And I really wish I was able to talk about all of it, because I've never tired of the field, and still find a lot of it fascinating... but I'm not a Snowden... so I keep it to things I'm allowed to speak about.

This stuff has nothing to do with secrets.

Time to buy stock in Verizon:
What the government pays to snoop on you (http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/07/10/what-government-pays-to-snoop-on-you/2504819/)

Time to buy stock in Verizon:
What the government pays to snoop on you (http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/07/10/what-government-pays-to-snoop-on-you/2504819/)

EVERY phone company does it because they don't have a choice... and if you don't think this happens in other countries too... you are sadly mistaken. Maybe not so much the third world countries... but any of the advanced ones.


Kind of like the French pretending they are upset spying takes place... every country spys on every other one... even the French do it, and its not even a secret.

In Canada the ISPs can tell law force and gov agencies to screw off unless they have a judge-signed document.

In Canada the ISPs can tell law force and gov agencies to screw off unless they have a judge-signed document.

You think they would have a difficult time getting a judge to sign that? I don't... they don't have a hard time getting it done here either.

And contrary to what you might hear on the news... it doesn't get done here without going through the proper channels either.

it doesn't get done here without going through the proper channels either.You're paying attention or you haven't been reading - yes, they can and yes they've been doing it for a while.

You're paying attention or you haven't been reading - yes, they can and yes they've been doing it for a while.

So you think... I actually know how this works because I've done some of it... and it doesn't get done without a LOT of paperwork and red tape. Again... contrary to what reporters who don't know 10% of what they write about might say.

What's that saying again... GIGO (garbage in, garbage out)... the press has been caught in too many lies and fabrications for them to claim any high road. Or to be assumed they got it right... absent any real lproof.

They pick what they use to make it sound like what they want everyone to think... while ignoring and burying info that contradicts what they are pushing.


Sometimes they get it right... Like The National Enquirer did with John Edwards... anyone remember how bad the rest of the press went after them for that? And how wrong everyone else turned out to be?

Its not rare either... they rarely get it 100% right... heck half the time they are lucky to get it 50% right.

THe average reporter knows as much about things outside of the journalism business as the average person knows about Neurosurgury.

So you think.. No, it's not what I think - it's all over the news - do you live under a rock??

No, it's not what I think - it's all over the news - do you live under a rock????

You are a fool if you believe everything some reporter says.

THey report what they want you to believe.. or at least what their editor wants you to believe... its not about what really took place.

Like Rathergate... with CBS "News" and a completely fabricated story that never happened as just one example.

If they knew half as much as they think they know.. they could get a better paying job in those other fields.

THose who can, do... those who can't, teach... or Report.

Haha, you're funny. The denial is strong with this. And your sense of conspiracy is high.

haha, you're funny. The denial is strong with this. And your sense of conspiracy is high.

Its not denial when I've seen hundreds of stories misreported... or flat out changed so much they never happened as reported... some from the raw data of the event... a lot of them first hand.

But then liberals are sheeple... they believe everything they are told to believe.

they believe everything they are told to believe.Apparently you are unfamiliar with the concept of conservatives finding a talking point and repeating it ad nauseum, typically without doing any of their own background research. We see it here all the time. Same with you and your "secrets" that you can't reveal. Hehe.

Apparently you are unfamiliar with the concept of conservatives finding a talking point and repeating it ad nauseum, typically without doing any of their own background research. We see it here all the time. Same with you and your "secrets" that you can't reveal. Hehe.

You are the delusional one here...

Lefty reporters all use the same terminology and choice of words... something impossible if they wrote their own stories. They are recorded doing it every day...

But then... the left really cares nothing about reality... they only care about their fantasy.

Privacy is a tricky issue, I don't want the government snooping on my internet searches or phone calls, but if my neighbor is looking up child porn or how to make pressure cooker bombs, I think there should be a way for the authorities to know about it. Is there any way to have a middle ground where innocent people have privacy but troublemakers can still be caught?

Privacy is a tricky issue, I don't want the government snooping on my internet searches or phone calls, but if my neighbor is looking up child porn or how to make pressure cooker bombs, I think there should be a way for the authorities to know about it. Is there any way to have a middle ground where innocent people have privacy but troublemakers can still be caught?

If you understood how this actually works... its not as intrusive as some people think.

If you understood how this actually works...its not as intrusive as some people think.

I guess I missed the sarcasm font for this one?

It is totally intrusive and wide open for abuse.

I guess I missed the sarcasm font for this one?

It is totally intrusive and wide open for abuse.

How... computers look for key words... things people simply do not routinely discuss... they then flag your calls to see who you've been calling and they get warrants to probe further... I will not go into any more detail than that...

There aren't millions of people listening in a call center to every single call made hoping to get juicy ones on their shift.

Okay so let's give them some juice how about attack... where do you live... Washington... state football team...

okay so let's give them some juice how about attack..............where do you live............ Washington.......... state football team..............

I think I hear someone knocking on your door right now.

I think I hear someone knocking on your door right now.

He's in Australia... they don't even need to knock... they all but disarmed the population.

He's in Australia...they don't even need to knock...they all but disarmed the population.

This is of course absolute nonsense and shows a complete lack of understanding. We were never armed in the first place. The overwhelming majority of Australians don't want to be armed. It's a non-issue in Australia.

Excepting for the Shooters and Fishers Party tut you remember them they want to take over the national parks for recreational shooting, but I personally haven't found it necessary to be armed since I was a teenager. There really is nothing to shoot but the odd bunny. No, we are a civilised society unlike some I could name

No, we are a civilised society unlike some I could name

You forgot to engage the sarcasm font.

How......computers look for key words...things people simply do not routinely discuss....they then flag your calls to see who you've been calling and they get warrants to probe further...I will not go into any more detail than that....

There aren't millions of people listening in a call center to every single call made hoping to get juicy ones on their shift.

I know how it works. But it is way way beyond what your trying to portray here. This isn't project echelon anymore. Its gone beyond that. The server farms they are wanting to build to handle it is just mind boggling. It is absolutely overreach and a violation of the fourth amendment.

Ref:

Fourth Amendment - U.S. Constitution - FindLaw (http://constitution.findlaw.com/amendment4/amendment.html)

I heard Australia's gun laws were much more strict after the Port Arthur massacre in 1996.

I bet they're monitoring this website, what with all the code words we use here and the threat us wingers pose.

I bet they're monitoring this website, what with all the code words we use here and the threat us wingers pose.



They want to monitor everything so no communication goes unmolested. Its sad to see one of the freest countries in the world take a turn like this.

They want to monitor everything so no communication goes unmolested. Its sad to see one of the freest countries in the world take a turn like this.

Exactly. Add the last few years of the media failing in their adversarial role and we the people are screwed.

You are not screwed because of anything the media did or did not do - you are screwed because you let the corporations dictate what the government does.

You are not screwed because of anything the media did or did not do - you are screwed because you let the corporations dictate what the government does.

Can you be any more clueless about the damage the Media is DIRECTLY responsible for in this country?

You are not screwed because of anything the media did or did not do - you are screwed because you let the corporations dictate what the government does.

If that's the case the media should be holding them accountable for that, too.

Can you be any more clueless about the damage the Media is DIRECTLY responsible for in this country?No. Why do you blame them for everything? Are americans idiot lemmings?

If that's the case the media should be holding them accountable for that, too.Is Fox News exposing it?

How......computers look for key words...things people simply do not routinely discuss....they then flag your calls to see who you've been calling and they get warrants to probe further...I will not go into any more detail than that....

There aren't millions of people listening in a call center to every single call made hoping to get juicy ones on their shift.

I hope they aren't looking for the words "big" and "boobs" or I'm in trouble, ha ha.

No. Why do you blame them for everything? Are americans idiot lemmings?

If you was half as smart as you think you are... you would see the PRONOUNCED bias in their news coverage...

I hope they aren't looking for the words "big" and "boobs" or I'm in trouble, ha ha.

Yeah... you, me and a LOT of other guys, and a few women too.

Hello smoothy:

you would see the PRONOUNCED bias in their news coverage... If the media is SOOO biased, where do you get the real scoop?

Excon

Hello smoothy:
If the media is SOOO biased, where do you get the real scoop?

excon

Easy for me... not so easy for most people.


I know where to go for a lot of stuff... can't get it for everything... but probably everyone reading would not be able to go where I do...

Hello again, smoothy:

I know where to go for a lot of stuff... can't get it for everything.Without an inside source on EVERYTHING, you MUST rely on somebody's reporting. Can you tell us who? Is it a secret? For example, who told you Obama doesn't have a birth certificate?

Excon

you would see the PRONOUNCED bias in their news coverage... It doesn't affect you then?

It doesn't affect you then?

I live in the USA... everything they do affects me... it likely doesn't affect you. But it most likely does at least in some ways.

everything they do affects me.Everything the MSM does affects you? Wow, you're a weak thinker - one of the sheeple.

You forgot to engage the sarcasm font.

That wasn't sarcasm it was fact I could name some but for the sake of harmony I didn't

Is Fox News exposing it?

One outlet can only do so much, but they've for the most part been the only national media to fulfill their adversarial role for the last five years. But if your premise is correct that would be the perfect outrage for the liberal media to expose. Are they?

Hello again, smoothy:
Without an inside source on EVERYTHING, you MUST rely on somebody's reporting. Can you tell us who? Is it a secret? For example, who told you Obama doesn't have a birth certificate?

excon

I spend all my time around government agencies and foreign embassies when I'm not in my office. I'm on a first name basis with all of them, and have been for a lot of years... We talk... its that simple.

Hello again, smoothy:

We talk... its that simple.So, they told you Obama doesn't have a birth certificate and that he's a commie??

Excon

Hello again, smoothy:
So, they told you Obama doesn't have a birth certificate and that he's a commie???

excon

You would be surprised how much he is disliked and distrusted in government circles. And not just our own.

Hello again, smoothy:

I'm sure he's disliked... So, that's where you get your news? From people who dislike him?? Kind of like the liberal media in reverse..

excon

Hello again, smoothy:

I'm sure he's disliked... So, that's where you get your news? From people who dislike him??? Kinda like the liberal media in reverse..

excon

I run in the right circles... I get a lot of stuff unfiltered...

Your average person isn't as biased as your average newsroom editor is. THEY have their job on the line if they don't toe the line their bosses demand they follow... Joe Average just gives it straight... without a sugar coating... about both the people they like and those they don't. And they can be even more critical of the people they like...

Hello again, smoothy:

I'm sure he's disliked... So, that's where you get your news? From people who dislike him??? Kinda like the liberal media in reverse..

excon

As opposed to getting it from those who get tingles up their leg thinking about him?

One outlet can only do so much,
Ah yes Fox News.. They really nailed the reporting on the Asiana crash:

kUx2r0pgnCA

Hehe, they are the laughing stock of the web right now.

Hello NK:

Bang Ding Ow... That is the funniest thing I ever heard... But I can't believe ANYBODY would buy into it... Ho Lee Fuk..

excon

Um... fox news wasn't the station that originally aired it... it was a local news station.

It was funny as hell... but damn... she got through not one but all four of those without it registering what she said? SLOW might be an understatement.

You see . Sen Durbin thinks that the only legitimate journalists are those who got a media paycheck . But you can find plenty examples of this type of fail from many local outlets ,and even some big prime time losers like Dan Rather .

Ah yes Fox News..They really nailed the reporting on the Asiana crash:

kUx2r0pgnCA

Hehe, they are the laughing stock of the web right now.

Only to idiots so eager to mock Fox News they didn't stop to see it was a local Oakland TV station.

http://m.cbsnews.com/storysynopsis.rbml?pageType=national&url=http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57593696/asiana-airlines-confirms-it-will-sue-ktvu-tv-over-broadcast-of-racist-fake-pilot-names/&feed_id=1&videoid=37&catid=57593696

you see . Sen Durbin thinks that the only legitimate journalists are those who got a media paycheck . But you can find plenty examples of this type of fail from many local outlets ,and even some big prime time losers like Dan Rather .

Or people that think we have 58 states and are protected by corpsemen.

Hello again,

I'm reminded of when O'Reilly read an email (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsNqugzaiXA)from Jack Mehoff.

Later, he claimed that it was HIS idea... Nahhhhh...

excon

I know Jack .He's married to Olga Fokyrcelf

Hahahha... ah Bill, always good for a laugh.

I know Jack .He's married to Olga Fokyrcelf

Lol.

Congratulations to our newest government snoop (http://blogs.rollcall.com/wgdb/how-cordray-snagged-17-republicans/), Richard Cordray of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, whose nomination was moved forward when Republicans caved over the threatened "nuclear option" and switched their votes (Lindsey Graham, you're an annoying turd bucket).

Sen. Enzi of Wyoming explains the good news to Americans...

sSZ56_n0Cyw

Partial transcript:


Why is this nomination important? Once the director is approved… by the Senate, we no longer have any control over a bureau that collects everyone’s financial records in detail and can cancel a loan 180 days even if both parties to the loan are happy. … The reason this is of the utmost concern to me and has been for the past three years is the lack of Congressional oversight and blatant privacy intrusions of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, the CFPB. … I said, this bill was supposed to be about regulating Wall Street. Instead, it’s creating a Google Earth on every financial transaction. That’s right, the government will be able to see every detail of your finances. Your permission? Not needed. They can look at your transactions from the 50,000 foot perspective, or they can look right down to the tiny details of the time and place where you pulled cash out of an ATM. … If your data’s being collected, you do not have the option to opt out. Nor does the CFPB need any kind of permission from you to gather your personal financial information.

What could go wrong?

I know, it's for our own protection... or rather for the protection of Obama's big bank buddies. Come on ex, occupy a bank!

Quite certain every Washington politician has a bank buddy. It's truly a bi-partisan wonder.

Goober Graham is a prototypical inside the beltway Republic .
The government is going after former Goldman Sachs trader Fabrice P. Tourre aka “Fabulous Fab” and doing nothing about the big wigs there that write the checks to the Dems. GS of course set up Tourre for the fall .while he will be wearing the orange jump suit, they walk with the bank paying a fine .

Referring back to my "what could go wrong" question above...

Dodd-Frank regulations would fill 28 copies of 'War and Peace' (ttp://thehill.com/blogs/regwatch/finance/312205-dodd-frank-regs-dwarf-war-and-peace#ixzz2ZX0C97aR)

So far...

What could go wrong?

Another global economic meltdown?

As long as they all got theirs... that's all that matters.

Another global economic meltdown?

How much money that could go to salaries and investment and such is going to be wasted trying to figure out what the hell the law means?

Turns out Snowjob is more KGB than Patrick Henry with a laptop, Who knew ?

Edward Snowden Seeking to Join KGB Veterans Group | Washington Free Beacon (http://freebeacon.com/edward-snowden-seeking-to-join-kgb-veterans-group/)

Hello again, tom:

The Washington Free Beacon, a project of the 501(c)4 Center for American Freedom, is a nonprofit online newspaper that began publication on February 7, 2012.Me?? I'd rather get my propaganda from MSNBC.

Excon

Are you saying Bill Gertz is not a legitimate journalist ?

The NY Slimes is reporting that Snowjob's lawyer has ties to Federal Security Service (F.S.B.)
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/28/world/europe/snowdens-lawyer-comes-with-high-profile-and-kremlin-ties.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

You know what FSB is ? The main successor agency to the KGB .

Hello again:

Republican Saxby Chandless says that, IF they were allowed to do it, the SPYING program that they're using NOW, would have prevented 9/11.

Duh! Who among us doesn't think a police state WORKS to reduce crime? Is that what we want America to become?

excon

Hello again,

Give 'em an inch...

Yes, the DEA wants access to the NSA data? Should they have it? What about your local police? Should THEY have NSA data about you? In fact, ALL government agencies WANT access to that data. (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/04/us/other-agencies-clamor-for-data-nsa-compiles.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20130804&_r=0) Who's surprised at that?

In my view, the 4th Amendment is MUCH more important to our freedom than being able to own a gun..

To those of you who SUPPORT a police state, please answer my above question.

excon

Why should it be one or the other?

More important than your right to have a gun?

You are aware that after they take away everyone's guns... "The Man" will have absolutely nothing holding them back for going all the way overboard... Ghandi types don't scare that element... a bullet to the skull and Gandhi would have been worm food... shoot enough of the Gandhi types and the weaker willed will capitulate.

We've seen for 4.5 years now the Law means absolutely nothing to meglomanicas on a power trip.

Your right to have a gun are no more or less important than anyone else's. Naw I doubt you wingers can shoot your way to ruling the country. Stupid to try.

Just curious Smoothie, ever have a psych evaluation? I think all you gun toter's' should have one, especially for concealed handguns. And you can't drink and drive so you shouldn't be allowed to drink and shoot either.

I know requiring a basic competency test is taking away your right to bear arms, but who wants a crazy drunk a$$ with a gun roaming the streets?

Your right to have a gun are no more or less important than anyone else's. Naw I doubt you wingers can shoot your way to ruling the country. Stupid to try.

Just curious Smoothie, ever have a psych evaluation? I think all you gun toter's' should have one, especially for concealed handguns. And you can't drink and drive so you shouldn't be allowed to drink and shoot either.

I know requiring a basic competency test is taking away your right to bear arms, but who wants a crazy drunk a$$ with a gun roaming the streets?

I think I'd rather have a crazy drunk with a gun than a Democrat drunk with power.

Your right to have a gun are no more or less important than anyone else's. Naw I doubt you wingers can shoot your way to ruling the country. Stupid to try.

Just curious Smoothie, ever have a psych evaluation? I think all you gun toter's' should have one, especially for concealed handguns. And you can't drink and drive so you shouldn't be allowed to drink and shoot either.

I know requiring a basic competency test is taking away your right to bear arms, but who wants a crazy drunk a$$ with a gun roaming the streets?

I think all tihe Communist leaning types should get an evaluation... to find out why they think they are entitled to a free ride but expect everyone else to foot the bill.

There is no right to a free ride anywhere in the BIll of Rights... OR the Constitution.

Our right to own guns to keep the lunatic fringe on the left in check... however IS.

Your right to have a gun are no more or less important than anyone else's. Naw I doubt you wingers can shoot your way to ruling the country. Stupid to try.

Just curious Smoothie, ever have a psych evaluation? I think all you gun toter's' should have one, especially for concealed handguns. And you can't drink and drive so you shouldn't be allowed to drink and shoot either.

I know requiring a basic competency test is taking away your right to bear arms, but who wants a crazy drunk a$$ with a gun roaming the streets?

What grab bag are you picking from to get all these talking points ? The second amendment is the most inportant amendment as it upholds all the others. As far as the fourth I believe they are in violation of it with how they are handleing this through the NSA.

You do know or are aware it is illegal to drink and carry a gun right? If you hold a carry permit and have anything in your system or on your breath you lose that permit. No ifs ands or buts. It's the Law.

Details, details.

Great news, the DOJ is going to investigate itself (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/06/justice-department-surveillance-dea?google_editors_picks=true) just like it did with Fast and Furious.


The US Department of Justice has launched an investigation into revelations that the Drug Enforcement Agency uses surveillance tactics – including wiretapping and massive databases of telephone records – to arrest Americans, amid growing concerns from lawyers and civil rights groups over its lack of transparency.

Move along, nothing to see here. Look, something shiny!

The emperor showed some spine this week in cancelling a summit with Vladdy (Darby) Putin. Let's face the facts... Evita and his reset have had the predictable results . Putin sees el jeffe as a weak President and openly shows his disdain . I can understand him not cooperating with us where he sees where it counters Russian national interest . But it is a hard sell to claim keeping Snowjob in Russian custody instead of honoring our extradition request is in their interest (what ? You thought they were granting him asylum ? ). No doubt they already downloaded his computers while he was still hanging in Moscow Airport.

This is just poking a finger in our eye .Doubly so when you consider that we released Russian spies ,including Anna Chapman, instead of tossing them in the slammer .

I welcome the fact that after 5 years as our leader ,the Emperor finally realizes the necessity of preconditions before discussion... even though I thought I heard the emperor say he didn't care about a 29 year old hacker. Next lesson... don't draw red lines unless you intend to enforce them.

ProPublica highlights the differences in policy between the emperor and Senator Obama.

The Surveillance Reforms Obama Supported Before He Was President - ProPublica (http://www.propublica.org/article/the-surveillance-reforms-obama-supported-before-he-was-president)

ProPublica highlights the differences in policy between the emperor and Senator Obama.

The Surveillance Reforms Obama Supported Before He Was President - ProPublica (http://www.propublica.org/article/the-surveillance-reforms-obama-supported-before-he-was-president)

Tom, do I really need to go over the whole thing again. Both sides see the benefit of the current practice. A path once trodden in the present will become a path well worn in the future.

Just pointing out the hypocrisy of the emperor for the benefit of the Obots.

That's the problem Tom seeing only the conservative view and thinking its absolutely right and everybody else is a criminal, and wrong. Not everyone buys the true believer approach. Especially when you eat your own.

Hello again,

How's THIS for eating our own? Under THIS president, we have witnessed the complete and absolute destruction of the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution...

While you wingers were sniveling about the Second Amendment, he STOLE the Fourth.

excon

While you wingers were sniveling about the Second Amendment, he STOLE the Fourth.

excon

I'd like to keep them both.

Hello again, Steve:

I'd like to keep them both.Let me elaborate on my earlier post...

While you wingers were sniveling about the 2nd, IN CONSORT with YOU, and on the FOUNDATION laid down by YOUR president, George W. Bush in the laughably entitled Patriot Act, Obama stole the 4th.

So, let's start calling SPADES, spades, OK?? I'm on the side that says we go BACK to the time before 9/11 when our PRIVACY, such as it was, was a PROTECTED right. I'm calling for a complete REVERSAL and DISMANTLING of the surveillance state no matter WHICH government agency is doing it.

Is that YOUR side, or are you one of the SNOOPS? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know how afraid you are... How, you're WILLING to give up privacy for security...

Well, I'm MORE afraid of my own government than I am of terrorists.

Excon

And the drive by media is still defending Obama and almost everything he does... and they probibly will continue until their First Amendment rights get curtailed... thats the only thing that could possibly wake them up... but I have my doubts they would even then.

Particularly since they couldn't find real things to go after Bush for so they fabricated some... I.E. Rathergate. Obama has dozens of things and they won't go near them.

Nobody like you nasty loud conservatives that think you are entitled to special treatment and no one else is.

Yeah... well what goes around comes around... remember that when its OUR turn to do this to all the lefties... because after all its just as much our RIGHT to do it as well... we are going to do it at LEAST as aggressively.

And by the way.. you don't get to whine about it then... because you have made it abundently clear you support it.


Remember the saying... Payback is a B*tch.

Hello again, Steve:
Lemme elaborate on my earlier post...

While you wingers were sniveling about the 2nd, IN CONSORT with YOU, and on the FOUNDATION laid down by YOUR president, George W. Bush in the laughably entitled Patriot Act, Obama stole the 4th.

So, let's start calling SPADES, spades, ok??? I'm on the side that says we go BACK to the time before 9/11 when our PRIVACY, such as it was, was a PROTECTED right. I'm calling for a complete REVERSAL and DISMANTLING of the surveillance state no matter WHICH government agency is doing it.

Is that YOUR side, or are you one of the SNOOPS? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know how afraid you are... How, you're WILLING to give up privacy for security...

Well, I'm MORE afraid of my own government than I am of terrorists.

excon

I never gave the feds permission to snoop on Americans nor have I defended it, so snivel at someone else about it.

Hello again, smoothy:

And the drive by media is still defending Obama and almost everything he does... I HATE corrupt officials. They belong in JAIL. If Obama is CORRUPT, I want him gone even MORE than you do.

But, before I say that, I've got to KNOW what he DID.

Now, I can agree that he hasn't been an especially good president. But, I don't know of anything he DID that is corrupt... Yeah, he's the boss of the IRS, and he did a BAD job of managing them... So?

Just link me to the SMOKING GUN the PROVES he's corrupt, and I'll start singing your tune... Until then, you're just another right winger flapping your gums.

Excon

Nobody like you nasty loud conservatives that think you are entitled to special treatment and no one else is.

Um, have you not been paying attention? It is Obama consistently ignoring his own law, granting waivers and creating a two-tier system of health care. It was a Republican that insisted Congress live under Obamacare and the president who exempted them.

Yeah....well what goes around comes around...remember that when its OUR turn to do this to all the lefties...because after all its just as much our RIGHT to do it as well....we are going to do it at LEAST as agressively.

And by the way..you don't get to whine about it then...because you have made it abundently clear you support it.


Remember the saying....Payback is a B*tch.

Just think of all those filibusters and cabinet appointees we owe you guys, not to mention a few jobs bills. Yeah I can't wait for pay back.

We can repeal a lot of stuff too starting with the vagina police, and papers please for minorities and women. And the greedy money grab by rich guys. Or we could elect Hillary and sic her on the right wing that's harassed her for decades.

Sorry you guys can't have a lame stream media all to yourself. We would let you use ours but I doubt they would go for it.

Um, have you not been paying attention? It is Obama consistently ignoring his own law, granting waivers and creating a two-tier system of health care. It was a Republican that insisted Congress live under Obamacare and the president who exempted them.

They like what they have and have as much right to keep it as you guys do yours. So drop the bogus straw man over waivers and exemption because that was the whole idea of making people without it get it, got it?

Probably not but stop throwing crap in the game.

That hypocrisy by you guys since you got insurance but don't want poor people to have it.

Obama ain't ignoring it, you guys are trying to kill it. You will fail.

They like what they have and have as much right to keep it as you guys do yours. So drop the bogus straw man over waivers and exemption because that was the whole idea of making people without it get it, got it?

Probably not but stop throwing crap in the game.

That hypocrisy by you guys since you got insurance but don't want poor people to have it.

Obama ain't ignoring it, you guys are trying to kill it. You will fail.

LOL, it's dizzying watching you flip flop and dance around your own positions.

They like what they have and have as much right to keep it as you guys do yours. So drop the bogus straw man over waivers and exemption because that was the whole idea of making people without it get it, got it?

Probably not but stop throwing crap in the game.

That hypocrisy by you guys since you got insurance but don't want poor people to have it.

Obama ain't ignoring it, you guys are trying to kill it. You will fail.

Flip flop... flip flop...

Just like a fish...

I still remember how the left for decades acted like Watergate was such a HUGE deal... when nobody got hurt and it was such a minor crime... that would normally only warrant probation...

THen there is the IRS breaking every law out there... and then Benghazi where they are still breaking laws by witness intimidation... not to mention the 4 people that died...

Hello again, smoothy:

when nobody got hurt and it was such a minor crime... that would normally only warrant probation... A cover-up conducted BY the president should warrant probation??

Bwa, ha ha ha ha ha... And, a few more ha ha ha ha ha's to boot.

Excon

Hello again, smoothy:
A cover-up conducted BY the president should warrant probation????

Bwa, ha ha ha ha ha.... And, a few more ha ha ha ha ha's to boot.

exconSomeone picked a lock in an apartment... in Watergate... nobody died... nobody even got a papercut.

FOUR PEOPLE DIED in Benghazigate and witnesses are still being threatened and has been covered up for a year now...

We still don't know HOW the Embassador died.. nore do the families of the others that died.
Watergate was NOTHING compaired to the seriousness of Benghazigate.

Hello again, smoothy:

Someone picked a lock in an apartment... in Watergate... nobody died... nobody even got a papercut.I understand. Your version of Watergate IGNORES everything that followed the break in.

That's OK. MOST right wingers IGNORE the history they don't like.

Excon

While you wingers were sniveling about the 2nd, IN CONSORT with YOU, and on the FOUNDATION laid down by YOUR president, George W. Bush in the laughably entitled Patriot Act, Obama stole the 4th.

There is NOTHING in the Patriot Act that permits the excesses this emperor has done. Not even close.

Hello again, smoothy:
I understand. Your version of Watergate IGNORES everything that followed the break in.

That's ok. MOST right wingers IGNORE the history they don't like.

excon

I see you are ignoring everything following the intitial attack on the Embassy in Libya... something they were able to watch live as it happened in the WHite house... and tell that to the Military people that Obama basically fired for trying to do something to help...

How about the fact we had rapid reaction forces at the airport in Libya on the ground during most of this... and they were told totand down and do nothing...


Tell you what... if a mob aof people bent on killing you were holding you... raping your wife... raping YOU... and someone told the police to stand down and do nothing... I guess that would be less important then someone picking a lock on an unoccupied apartment.

You just can't make this stuff up. Obama has appointed the guy that lied to us (http://pjmedia.com/instapundit/170260/), about government snooping, James Clapper, to round up a panel to investigate.

Obama calls for outside review of NSA intelligence collection (http://news.yahoo.com/obama-calls-outside-review-nsa-intelligence-collection-220317947.html)

The whole Obama admin scam for getting to the bottom of anything is denial, skepticism, reluctant acknowledgment, faux concern followed by "nothing to see here, move along," distraction, obstruction and investigating itself and finding no fault. What a deal.

At least we can admit that Snowden is a hero for disclosing secrets that should not be secret.

Snowden deserves to be the victim of a prison rape.

Hello again, smoothy:

Snowden deserves to be the victim of a prison rape.So, you didn't want to know that the government is SPYING on you?? I wanted to know. You'd rather be kept in the DARK?? Really?? Nahhhh.

How about if the IRS targeted right wingers in SECRET?? Wouldn't THAT be something you'd like to know??

Excon

At least we can admit that Snowden is a hero for disclosing secrets that should not be secret.

I don't admit that at all. What we have in Snowjob is (if I'm being generous) is some desk jockey who decided on his own to grab electronic information that he doesn't own ;and to make a unilateral decision to disclose it . Why would I think he's more competent to decide what should be a secret than our elected leaders ? Had he gone through the proper channels to disclose this information then perhaps I could look on him as a hero instead of a sap who will now spend the rest of his life on the run ,or in a Russian gulag ,or in some 3rd world version of a gulag ,or possibly in an American jail when he tires of running .

Hello again, smoothy:
So, you didn't want to know that the government is SPYING on you??? I wanted to know. You'd rather be kept in the DARK???? Really??? Nahhhh.

How about if the IRS targeted right wingers in SECRET??? Wouldn't THAT be something you'd like to know???

excon

Based on the article,it doesn't appear that the emperor's concern is the nature of the apparent 4th amendment violations as much as his concern for ending leaks. I'll remind you that it was such a concern that drove Nixon to create 'the plumbers '.Is James Clapper the new G Gordon Liddy ?

So it should have been kept a secret then? I'm confused as to what you guys want.

How companies spy on you: (http://www.peoplesearchpro.com/journalism/spy/corporate.htm)

How to Know If People Are Spying on Your Computer | eHow (http://www.ehow.com/how_4966550_people-spying-computer.html)

Corporations Spy On Citizens | A Nation In Peril (http://anationinperil.com/?tag=corporations-spy-on-citizens)

Maybe while we are mad about the government invading our privacy (to protect us from terrorists and criminal), we should be as mad about private companies doing the same thing(and not to protect us).

We can make the government stop, or at least show enough probable cause but what about the banks, insurance companies, or McDonald's. Walmart's tracks your stuff too.

So it should have been kept a secret then? I'm confused as to what you guys want.

My problem is that there are legitimate state secrets that someone at his level should not be deciding are worthy of revelation. Already such leaks have cost American and American assets lives . Snowjob left with a PC full of information that the Chinese had the first crack at and the Russians the next . Maybe he had nothing... Maybe he gave them critical intel. It was not up to him to decide .

Had Snowjob gone to the relevant Congressional committies with his information then I would've had more respect for what he did . Had he disclosed them and then hung around to defend his actions (ala Daniel Ellsburg )I would've had more respect for him. He doesn't look like a hero to me .He looks like a traitor .

How companies spy on you: (http://www.peoplesearchpro.com/journalism/spy/corporate.htm)

How to Know If People Are Spying on Your Computer | eHow (http://www.ehow.com/how_4966550_people-spying-computer.html)

Corporations Spy On Citizens | A Nation In Peril (http://anationinperil.com/?tag=corporations-spy-on-citizens)

Maybe while we are mad about the government invading our privacy (to protect us from terrorists and criminal), we should be as mad about private companies doing the same thing(and not to protect us).

We can make the government stop, or at least show enough probable cause but what about the banks, insurance companies, or McDonald's. Walmart's tracks your stuff too.

What power does Micky D's have over you ?

Had Snowjob gone to the relevant Congressional committies with his information then I would've had more respect for what he did . As you know that would never have seen the light of day.

No I don't know that at all.

Hello again, smoothy:
So, you didn't want to know that the government is SPYING on you??? I wanted to know. You'd rather be kept in the DARK???? Really??? Nahhhh.

How about if the IRS targeted right wingers in SECRET??? Wouldn't THAT be something you'd like to know???

excon

I know a lots of what they are doing.. I'm sure there is a lot more I don't even know they are doing.

I have a biigger fear of what some beuracrat is trying to shove up my butt while they are holding me down... and telling me its going to be good for me... than what they are going to overhear.

I have a biigger fear of what some beuracrat is trying to shove up my butt while they are holding me down.. No, I would think your total loss of privacy would bother you more. But your fantasies are indeed interesting.

No, I would think your total loss of privacy would bother you more. But your fantasies are indeed interesting.

Privacy in the modern world is not what your think... or expect it is.

Unless maybe you live in the Northern Territories... where it actually might. But then you would be more concerned with survival and getting eaten by polar bears... than what someone might overhear.

what power does Micky D's have over you ?

They have power over their employees.

As employers should... if those employee went out and started their own businesses and hired people that would too.

But the customers of any business have power over that employer.

And the power to retaliate against the ones protesting on their own time, or congregating to organize their own union.

That's the price that goes with freedom of speech... there is no freedom from consequences.

That's why its called at-will employment... stick your finger in your bosses eye.. don't be surpised to find a pink slip.

They have power over their employees.

You work for McDonald's?

They have power over their employees.

If I'm using a company PC why would I expect privacy ?

The Compost momentarilary dropped their Praetorian Press status to do some real reporting :

The National Security Agency has broken privacy rules or overstepped its legal authority thousands of times each year since Congress granted the agency broad new powers in 2008, according to an internal audit and other top-secret documents.

Most of the infractions involve unauthorized surveillance of Americans or foreign intelligence targets in the United States, both of which are restricted by statute and executive order. They range from significant violations of law to typographical errors that resulted in unintended interception of U.S. e-mails and telephone calls.
NSA broke privacy rules thousands of times per year, audit finds - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-broke-privacy-rules-thousands-of-times-per-year-audit-finds/2013/08/15/3310e554-05ca-11e3-a07f-49ddc7417125_story.html)


The NSA audit obtained by The Post, dated May 2012, counted 2,776 incidents in the preceding 12 months of unauthorized collection, storage, access to or distribution of legally protected communications.
In other words the audit results were completed during the 2012 election cycle and was withheld from the public . Not only that ,but they withheld the results from the highest ranking members of Congress .

Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.), who did not receive a copy of the 2012 audit until The Post asked her staff about it, said in a statement late Thursday that the committee “can and should do more to independently verify that NSA's operations are appropriate, and its reports of compliance incidents are accurate.”

The causes and severity of NSA infractions vary widely. One in 10 incidents is attributed to a typographical error in which an analyst enters an incorrect query and retrieves data about U.S phone calls or e-mails.

But the more serious lapses include unauthorized access to intercepted communications, the distribution of protected content and the use of automated systems without built-in safeguards to prevent unlawful surveillance.
The May 2012 audit, intended for the agency's top leaders, counts only incidents at the NSA's Fort Meade headquarters and other ­facilities in the Washington area. Three government officials, speak­ing on the condition of anonymity to discuss classified matters, said the number would be substantially higher if it included other NSA operating units and regional collection centers.

Clearly the requirement to run some of these ops past the FISA court was no road block ,or even a speed bump for that matter .

In another case, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which has authority over some NSA operations, did not learn about a new collection method until it had been in operation for many months. The court ruled it unconstitutional.
Before he went on his excellent vacation ,the emperor held a presser where he proposed a 'national conversation' about NSA surveillance . Then he proposed some cosmetic changes to the agency .
How the President's Message on NSA Spying Has Evolved - NationalJournal.com (http://www.nationaljournal.com/whitehouse/how-the-president-s-message-on-nsa-spying-has-evolved-20130809)

Here's one he could do immediately... force the agency to operate under EXISTING laws and restraints .

Why would he do that.. the White House and DOJ don't operate under existing laws now either.

Hello again, tom:

Here's one he could do immediately... force the agency to operate under EXISTING laws and restraints .Nahhh... Let's operate under the CONSTITUTION. If you let the government snoop a LITTLE, they're going to snoop a LOT.

Excon

http://www.dispatch.com/content/graphics/2013/08/15/130815beelertoon_c.jpg

Actually they aren't eavesdropping, they are collecting metadata. Most people don't seem to understand the difference.

Awesome, Obama's blue ribbon group of "outside experts" is in place to review the surveillance activities of our government snoops.

Obama’s ‘outside experts’ for NSA review are former intel and White House staffers (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/08/22/obamas-outside-experts-for-nsa-review-are-former-intel-and-white-house-staffers/)

Nothing says confidence more than having your buddies check on the job you're doing. One of these guys if you'll recall, wanted to have government shills "cognitively infiltrate" chat rooms and sites like this to counter conspiracy theories and apparently tell us how awesome our government is.

Obama confidant’s spine-chilling proposal - Salon.com (http://www.salon.com/2010/01/15/sunstein_2/)

Of course we need the ultimate proponent of government propaganda investigating government snoops to inspire joy-joy good feelings in us.

sites like thisHardly. <snicker>

Hardly. <snicker>

Right, this place is too irrelevant to worry about but it is of type listed for targeting. But I understand, you're always so eager to try and make me look silly you can't help but make yourself look like an a$$.

Right, this place is too irrelevant to worry about but it is of type listed for targeting. But I understand, you're always so eager to try and make me look silly you can't help but make yourself look like an a$$.

There aren't any terrorists here just a few people with diverse opinions

just a few people with diverse opinionsAnd some extreme bitterness.

I'm not bitter, I'm intolerant... of fools.

Wow, you really got me there. However will I continue in this life.